#ICO Sway & Recoil: Okay but could be a lot better.

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main saddle
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Posting to keep this topic apart of new and continued discussions (especially with all the new attention on possible incoming factions). While the sway and recoil of the ICO is in a playable state, I do hope that OWI doesn't think of the ICO as a “one and done" concept and will continue to iterate on these mechanics to make them much more accurate to actual firearm operation / handling. In no way am I calling for a return to the "laser rifles with constant stabilization of pre ICO", but I do feel that ***the current conditions of recoil and sway feel over exaggerated ***at times leading many to great frustration in small arm engagements. There are plenty of feedback posts from others that have great, well thought out recommendations on this topic, so I urge you to search for those and check them out.

Summary: Continue to iterate & experiment with ICO to refine mechanics into best possible product.

Edit: Sorry for repost if you already saw this; had to delete previous posting as things got a bit wild in the comments.

peak skiff
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Mission failed

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With the recent discoveries about how gunplay experience varies across different hardware it is a good time to not only rework to engineering of it but also the design.
Try another iteration that really focuses on making gunplay feel satisfying. Why try and fix a system that was at best tolerated for its effects in other design domains, considered a "necessary evil" by some but hated by so many and called out by the biggest name in FPS streaming for how utterly clunky it feels? Seems like a waste of time.
Making shooting guns feel good ("in an empty room") surely is something the OWI game designers are eager to have another crack at.

solar kernel
# peak skiff Mission failed

There is nothing fun or satisfying with the way guns handle currently. The devs should go to a range or 2 gun class and get some real life insight. And the suppression is god awful, the current game play rewards rats who hide in a bush more then someone actively playing the game and objective.

jaunty merlin
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WTF does "It should be fun to shoot a gun in an empty room" mean? What are these people smoking? Trying to shoot your gun and battling the extreme sway and recoil is the exact opposite of fun

heady dune
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Squad mechanics aren’t rocket science, if someone after 100h still has issues with simple stuff it’s skill issue coupled with lack of proper onboarding

main saddle
jaunty merlin
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I would be ok with suppresion but the sway combined with stamina is the reason i dropped the game after 1k+ hours

worn jasper
# peak skiff With the recent discoveries about how gunplay experience varies across different...

BLUF: Keep iterating on ICO or, as stated, perform a ground-up rework. ICO is a great step in the right direction.

Streamers are in no way the type of people Squad should cater their game toward regardless of how or what they aim to produce with their content. They aren't expert gamers or voices any more than any individual in the community nor should they be treated above us.

I like what OWI was going for with ICO. I think ICO is significantly more playable than pre-ICO and the fact that I've probably played more since ICO than I did from Beta until ICO reflects that.

But yes, as stated, the sway is very exaggerated when you're at the far end of stamina drain and somehow being tied to your computer's performance is not okay.

The suppression mechanic is a good idea, as other's suggestion potentially tunnel visioning to the center of your screen might be a better way to accomplish the intended goal vs making the screen nearly completely unfocused. Suppression could also be a timed duration of some kind as obviously being under continuous fire desensitizes you to the dangers of it (vs just being completely blocked out of playing because of well timed reloads)

Some have pointed out that specific factions (I.E. TLF) need their recoil reworked, and I can see where they're coming from. The MPT76 shouldn't be as uncontrollable on semi auto as it seems to be.

rugged nebula
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FPS bug means that we were all playing a slightly different game. It should be fixed before any features are added. People don't seem to understand how massive of an issue this is. Everyone's feedback and opinions on the gun handling are almost useless because no one is experiencing the same thing. This is true for as long as this bug has existed potentially even before the ICO. That means people's reasoning for wanting some sort of ICO in the first place was potentially because people even back then were experiencing different behavior from the weapons.

The original person who found the FPS bug was demonstrating the weapon sway in the current version of the game afaik. Imagine the disparity between the weapon handling at different FPS when the ICO first came out. Think about all the feedback and people arguing and talking past eachother over how they do/don't like the gun changes. All of that was because the game never worked properly in the first place. This explains why when I talk to some people who feel love/hate the ICO I feel like I'm talking to someone who is playing a different game.

tawdry temple
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i loved ICO when it just got introduced, when recoil, sway and suppression were actually super high. Those firefights were insanely funny and long lasting.

solar kernel
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Global Escalation gun play is superior to the base game gun play

sour mural
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Developers take pride in every part they design, even if they don't play games

mint spire
peak skiff
rugged nebula
worn jasper
peak skiff
# rugged nebula who

Shroud had an ICO stream where him and his group really could not believe the state of the gunplay. As a fan of Squad it was hard to watch. Shame when you consider he was able to get people excited about Reforger which is a much more difficult and even slower game.
Summit also refuses to play the game because he never gets to shoot anything, by the time he sees anyone and has opened his map they are gone. Finds it boring and frustrating. Only recently re-confirmed this when he went around trying Squad, HLL etc. again

lavish cloak
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answer this. Such a game breaking bug that ties sway and recoil to fps in a game like cod would lead to a mass review bomb....why do we tolerate it?

solar basalt
heady dune
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you can find full vod from this clip as well

heady dune
peak skiff
# heady dune reforger with its mechanics actually resembles squad alot, you get those backpac...

I recently re-visited it. I personally doubt it will ever come to a point that I wish to actively participate.
Looks to me as if Bohemia just got their most dedicated fans to fund development of the tech needed for ArmA 4 but never cared much about it.

As per usual the community needs to provide the game modes and with the small size none have been made that provide a pace that I would be interested in right now.
Takes way too long to get into a fight.

peak skiff
clever sphinx
peak skiff
clever sphinx
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Would he wait behind the truck for 10 seconds he would have gotten the kill and refilled stamina, plus would be in cover to reduce any rng shenanigans.

peak skiff
# clever sphinx Would he wait behind the truck for 10 seconds he would have gotten the kill and ...

The maps are square kilometers in size. Sometimes you need to use movement keys. I know, wild idea in 2024 Squad.
Doesnt change the recoil, muzzle flash and gas situation. Its really just random spray & pray.
This is one clip of a whole stream. When one of the most universally skilled FPS players on the planet, who can pick up and perform well in any FPS game off rip, says the game makes him artificially "feel like a bot" then there is a design issue. And he is spot on with that. The game makes controlling your soldier and gun feel intentionally awkward.

heady dune
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even with full stamina the situation would play out exactly the same cuz recoil and spread is ridiculous

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sway doesnt even affect the gun at this short of a distance

hazy condor
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There are too many vanilla simps for owi to go for this....

I don't disagree but I've pretty much given up on asking for this

clever sphinx
worn jasper
fathom fog
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There is no problem that u dont cant run and shoot , the problem is , that the stamina is low when u start walking . Fix the stamina would solve this problem

peak skiff
steep quail
green cliff
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That little bit has been done since and includes the FPS bug.

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Rifles are generally fine imo, the recent update did seem to improve bursting a good bit. MGs still suck though.

peak skiff
# steep quail He says in a later clip that he agreed with what OWI was trying to do, and just ...

(Almost) everyone agrees with the mission statement. A product doubling down on what makes it great is the right thing to do.
People that want to play CoD or BF play CoD or BF. We are all here for the Squad experience.
However, trying to appease bad/new players by increasing TTK through intentionally bad gunplay design has been tried many times before but has never positively impacted the less casual audience in the long wrong.
As a result the gunplay as it stands atm is rubbish. In so many different ways. Especially ways entirely unrelated to stamina management.

Its almost like the community keeps asking for major iteration on the first attempt (as evidenced once again by the ratio on this very thread) to achieve the original mission (as posted by me in the first comment).
In the recent survey "Infantry" wasn't even an option to vote for. OWI still has yet to even once use the word "ICO" in external communication since 6.0. They are trying to put their head in the sand, add more anti-infantry content to the game and ride this one out.
Game looks good in trailers and is immersive for the 2 hour refund period. Job done?

hazy condor
# rugged nebula FPS bug means that we were all playing a slightly different game. It should be f...

I was using a Russian ak74 and the recoil was so bad at 50 m with the enemy standing still

1st shot hit, 2, 3rd -6th round never came close...

I never shoot full auto but the gun was firing like I was spraying and praying....

This is really interesting and makes A LOT of sense.

Agreed, if this is a thing, this needs to get fixed.

Weapons handling needs to be improved across the board

It's bad when vanilla slots argue the recoil is fine but then watch a video of a chick firing the same gun one handed plinking irons at 25m

It's embarrassing

I've said in the past that owi needed to remove themselves and their bs bias from the equation and attach accelerometers to each weapon with a camera mounted on the rear of the gun, camera tripod in front at 45 facing rear, camera level 90° to the gun and top down....and model the actual firing single shots, firing semi auto successively, and full auto.

With a grid behind and below the gun, you can see the rise, walk, up/down, left/right, accelerometer feedback and bring all those components into the game.

Also, hook up a mesh of audio mics and get you updated sounds around the weapon and down range when firing.

If I was in charge of developing a fps....this would be #1 to get everything right and accurate / "authentic"

modern scarab
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Some really good points made in this thread, thumbs up. All they needed to do to transform Pre Ico was the following:-

  • Balance the benefit of optics with a bit more sway and impact from stamina, making irons and red dots equally desirable overall and a much better choice in close quarters. You could increase the time it takes to 'align' the sight picture/ads time for optics as well.
  • Increase the deployed accuracy and lethality of LMG's not decrease it.
  • Introduce greater 'suppressive effect' when being shot at by multiple points of origin. Remove/reduce CQB suppression, i.e. weapon fired within x metres introduce minimal suppression at most.
    Lastly they needed to educate the playerbase into how suppression actually works in principle in reality and how the method to apply it IRL and it's impact can in fact translate to games without having over the top vomit inducing after effects.

What we have now discourages real infantry tactics and teamwork rather than promotes it.
Inaccurate or 'hard to shoot' weapons (achieved through whatever mechanic) don't promote good gameplay, they simply don't punish bad gameplay.
ICO's implementation turns modern combat into some weird alternative universe revolutionary war exchange. Move, stop, wait, wait...wait, fire shot, bang, smoke everywhere, everyone is blinded and deaf, opponent fires, more negative effects, everyone has a headache, repeat. There is a justifable argument to be made for the AIMS of ICO and there is an equal if not greater argument for it's further refinement.

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Obviously there is more detail but it's Discord, space and all.

hazy condor
modern scarab
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The loss of colour and a touch of vignette could certainly work!

delicate minnow
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Only necessary changes to ICO in my opinion:

  • Suppression blur should be a depth of field effect allowing you to still see in front of you for a short distance. It could be as little as 15 meters and it would be better than being completely blurred as it is currently in the game.

  • Suppression flinch should decrease after the first shot for light weapons. (Is this already a thing? Im not sure) Heavy weapons compared should still cause more flinching of course.

  • Hip fire recoil shouldn't punch your aim to the right. MEA and Turkish weapons do this a lot.

Thats the few things I dislike about the ICO. I could live with it if they dont make these changes but it would be nice if they did.

delicate minnow
amber adder
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If you guys wanna make guns near impossible to use just remove kills and deaths from scoreboard as well

clever sphinx
amber adder
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Should be a server setting to be honest

steep quail
hazy condor
peak skiff
heady dune
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Pivot point on guns is in the wrong spot makes the guns feel floaty
overexaggerated recoil on all guns
Camera flinch / blur
Ridiculously low movement speed
Cant move when reloading (WTF ?)

Those are all mechanics that make fps experience unfun some could be removed completely / reworked. For example camera flinch is stupid and can make people dizzy (theres a reason why most games allow you to turn off / lower camera shake)

Blur as suppression mechanic is totally useless and prone to cause headaches (literally)

green cliff
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You can move when reloading.

heady dune
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at extremely low speed

green cliff
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So? Time your reloads.

heady dune
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i just listed whats wrong with the game

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i dont care if you agree or not as it is my opinion

green cliff
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And I disagree.

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Also you've always moved slow when reloading, it's not an ICO thing.

heady dune
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not that slow

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ive played this game since alpha no need to tell me what you could and couldnt do

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old gunplay maybe was a bit arcadey but it didnt need to be butchered into whatever crap we got now

hazy condor
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17 kills and 19 downs plus shoot 2 of my guys who were inside shaded cover and I could only see their head in enemy territory (sry, didn't have time to go to the map)

5 deaths. All rifle and grenade kills. Got kicked from a squad so I only had a rifle with 2 mags (no knife) so I was limited out I could have killed harder.

That kit is butter and feels so good. You've got to try it. The scope is PERFECT for CQB.

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There's a standard long barrel rifleman with rmr but it's not as intuitive as the kit mentioned above

heady dune
hazy condor
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People have complained how when you're shooting, the stock doesn't just bounce around in your shoulder (bc you're pulling it into your body and shoulder pocket tightly)

fathom fog
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Ico like its now , feels like Joe Biden Dlc

ionic orchid
ionic orchid
# clever sphinx Would he wait behind the truck for 10 seconds he would have gotten the kill and ...

I hate these stupid tactical criticisms bc he would have just gotten killed by the 2nd or 3rd person in the area. It's total nonsense to criticize someone's gameplay, when the only winning strategy is have a hab and play defensively or die bc u moved. It's utter garbage to think any of the nonsensical tactical suggestions would make a god damn lick of difference to his outcome. He would have died to a player w 2 hrs in the game laying down. It has completely ruined gunplay and removed shooter/ skill. it has dumbed this game down to child's play.

clever sphinx
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Guess what, CS2 didnt remove anything. Also how did it remove skill? Its like saying riding a bicycle backwards takes no skill. Itsnonsensical yes, but takes skill. Take it easy and l2p.

rugged nebula
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flinging your camera around and blurring your screen in most other games is something cosmetic that can be turned off, but someone decided this should affect gameplay so you cant. I think the reason no one seems to care is simply that it doesn't effect them so they don't see it as a valid issue. IMO a lot of people who have a hard time playing this game with all the screen blurring and camera oscillating have just stopped playing.

hazy condor
rugged nebula
hazy condor
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I've brought up a lot of real world firearms / training experiences and ppl bring up some other shit you never said and start arguing a different point that's not relevant

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It's wild

rugged nebula
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but are you agreeing with what i said.

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i'm slow

hazy condor
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All good homie

rugged nebula
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@hazy condor has the game ever made you dizzy after the ICO

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it only happened to me right when the ICO dropped

rugged nebula
hazy condor
rugged nebula
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yyet

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it do be goofy like that sometimes

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i have a solution to all of this
turn the screen of when suppressed

/s

clever sphinx