MG rework

[crude pike]

Wrote this prior to the feedback overhaul so figured I’d write it again.

The machine gun kit in its current iteration is incredibly underpowered and obsolete compared to alternatives. For most factions there is very little reason to utilize a 7.62 machine gun over their lighter auto rifle counterpart. The auto rifle in most factions has more ammo, less recoil, better handling, and the damage and suppression buff of the machine gun is not noticeably higher.

Those disadvantages are realistic, what’s not realistic is how lethal a machine gun is compared to an auto rifle. In game there is a slight bonus to damage, which is totally offset by the fact that an MG can’t get more than one round on target. Which means auto rifles end up being more lethal despite the MG dealing more damage.

The following are my solutions.

1. Buff damage to MGs, similar to the Battle rifle, the MG should be a 1 shot kill within 20m, this would make them less than absolutely useless at close range. I get it, it should be terrible at close range, but you flat out can’t eat multiple 7.62 at point blank range.

2. Buff penetration effects. Wooden houses, small trees, etc. should be concealment to an MG. There’s plenty of videos of MGs cutting straight through concrete barriers.

3. Decrease spread in bursts. MGs weigh around 20 lbs, the weight more than offsets the recoil. You should be able to get more than 1 round on target in a 3-5 second burst within 300m.

In summary, MGs need to be lethal not just suppressive. Players know that they can run into machine gun fire, get a blurry screen, but probably not die. MGs need to be so lethal that players know if they enter that field of fire they WILL die.

[dire tartan]

Nah, it's called a cone of fire. Look it up.

[azure arrow]

Nah, it's called running towards a machine gunner should get you killed. Look it up.

[dire tartan]

It does? Bullets kill in the game? Maybe you're just really trash at it idk. Skill issue probably

[azure arrow]

Nope! Exaggerated spread and recoil leads to the second bullet flying to narnia!

[dire tartan]

Exaggerated spread? That's literally how machine guns are designed to function lmfao

[frail olive]

lol

Yeah no - the spread is absolutely exaggerated and nothing like any real machine gun. Recoil can instead be used to make MGs harder to use but the spread is atrocious and makes MG useless.

[azure arrow]

Designed to function like that because people in real life have fear of them dying! However it is just a video game! So people can just run at the gunner and live with some blur that goes away after5 seconds!

[dire tartan]

Seeth and cope. It's called a cone of fire.

[dire tartan]

I've literally never seen someone push an MG suppressing them

[azure arrow]

You must not be playing as MG then!

[frail olive]

Bro doesn't know what cone of fire means

So you think if you shoot a machine gun and hold it straight, bullets are gonna go left right up and down

How about do some reading before coming on here lol

[azure arrow]

He has man! He's a gravy seal!

[frail olive]

Ahhh of course

[dire tartan]

Seeth and cope.

Ad hominem, I win. Now quiet

[azure arrow]

Oh my god! You learned a fallacy in 8th grade? Yes you win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dire tartan]

Did you have to look that up? I know I do, now be quiet

You're vonly embarrassing yourself here more trying to come up with elementary grade playground insults

[azure arrow]

Oh my god!!!! Yes i had to look it up!!! oh master gravy seal!

[hushed hornet]

hes a troll, block and pay him no mind

[frail olive]

"Ad hominem, I win. Now quiet."

[hushed hornet]

he learned one sentence now hes going around threads on this discord repeating it like a parrot

[dire tartan]

Cope harder

[hushed hornet]

how about you stop trolling on every thread

[frail olive]

bros the certified yapper of the discord

[crude pike]

Beaten zones are an incredibly misunderstood factor of machine gun theory. As I was taught it there are two types of beaten zones, mechanical and manual. A mechanical beaten zone is the inherent limitation of the weapon system to develop a cone of fire at longer ranges due to vibrations and inaccuracy of the weapon system. Per FM23 Appendix F this only really comes into factor at ranges beyond 600m where you’re engaging area targets and your arc of fire becomes a plunging arc of fire.

Within 600m you are engaging point targets and utilizing a manual beaten zone. This is where the MG utilizes search and traverse techniques to manually move the gun and create arcs of fire.

FM23 also states the maximum size of a beaten zone is 2m wide, at 1300m range. In game a burst from an MG easily covers 2m at 300m range.

[frail olive]

@dire tartan And boom. That's you and your entire argument destroyed. See ya nerd!

[crude pike]

Also if you couldn’t tell by the graphics these concepts really only apply to tripod mounted HMGs, not bipod mounted LMGs. A 240 on a bipod has a maximum effective range of 600m, and even on a tripod that only extends out to 800m

[hushed hornet]

dont worry they will continue to spew shit out of their pie holes

[azure arrow]

bwut.. bwut... im a gravy seel, and is con of fir... im suposed to win!!!! you ar suposed to be the loser!!! i learn falacy in 8th grad for dis....

seth and cop i win!!!!!

[dire tartan]

Cringe lmao

[frail olive]

Guess what? Seeth and cope : D

[hushed hornet]

why did i expect elaborate answer from him?

[azure arrow]

haha

[dire tartan]

If I had to guess,, the reason it is how it is, is because the maps in squad are incredibly small compared to the size and openness of a real world warzone.

The image there shows a .50 Browning MG, does that small beaten zone apply to the m240b as well?

[dire tartan]

Nothing about what I said is "destroyed" child, the adults are talking now

[frail olive]

It absolutely is, take the L and move on yapper

[dire tartan]

I said the adults are talking. That doesn't include you

[frail olive]

Doesn't include you either, parrot

Now please leave this thread to people who have somewhat basic knowledge of firearms, thank you!

[azure arrow]

omg ad hominen!!!! ! you lose!!! cope and seethe

[dire tartan]

Oh you learned a word that's good. That's out the window though since you've all repeatedly hurled names at me for breaking down your shitty suggestions.

Sounds like cope to me

Cry?

Look at this man typing up a paragraph of cope

[crude pike]

Beaten zones do exist for the 240 just in a very different fashion. It’s a manual beaten zone where you use your search and traverse to create the spread, not the inherent limitation of the weapon system.

Mechanical beaten zones of the weapon system really only occurs when engaging at the utmost limit of effective fire for your weapon system, for the 240 that’s 6-800m for the M2 that’s 1500m

And yes you can totally engage at 600m in squad, many maps allow for it

[azure arrow]

nope !! i win because you ad hominen!! cope and seethe!!!

[dire tartan]

Are you certain of that? Artificially created? I've shot m240b and it's certainly not a precision weapon due to the amount of sustained firing and the way the barrel is treated.

[crude pike]

It’s not a precision weapon system but you can definitely land an entire burst in a man sized target out to 300m. Believe me I have plenty of experience with the 240, which I won’t get into because personal experience is inherently biased

The concepts you’re talking about totally exist, they just don’t exist at the scale that squad plays at

A beaten zone with a 240 at 600m, absolutely, at 400m yeah a bit. At 1-200m as in squad, absolutely not

[dire tartan]

Gotcha. Thanks for supplying that info. It helps a lot.

[frail olive]

bro really thought a 7.62x51mm MG would be inaccurate at 100 meters

[crude pike]

They can be, with a shit enough gun and a shit enough crew

I’ve seen some foreign forces with PKs that were keyholing at 100m

But that’s the exception not the rule

[viral oracle]

Add more pen and lower the spread but the 1 tap at close range shouldn't happen so they're sufficiently vulnerable there.

You can get 1 shot off without too much trouble atm.

But yeah, MGs at the moment are total trash, marksmen is the better class for reaching out.

[dire tartan]

If you're referring to killing at distance, yes that's how that works as per the conversation just above.

[wanton locust]

This whole argument about real life performance is irrelevant for the game.

It is clear that machine guns are an inferior choice of kit within the current game design, compared to literally any other kit. Therefor they have to be buffed

[viral oracle]

The insane spread is so stupid.

Same for the 50 cals.

They say they're "looking into it" but they made the change on the whim so change it back or simply adjust the numbers.

150 MOA on the kord ffs, bullshit.

[wanton locust]

for some .50cals. RWS .50cals are still pinpoint accurate

[viral oracle]

The DSHK is also pinpoint accurate and some vehicles with 50s have the old accuracy.

Like the bulldog I think.

[dire tartan]

I was just about to ask what game he's playing lol

[crude pike]

Solutions can be found that are both realistic and good for gameplay balance. The idea that every issue in game has to be one or the other is simply false.

[crude pike]

I’m not entirely married to the idea of the 1 tap, it’s more of an overall uniformity to calibers that I would like to see.

[viral oracle]

I don't really believe there was an issue specifically with open top or deployed 50 cals being too strong, if anything they were too weak before ICO and now just as weak because you can't fight back effectively.

All vehicles need some MOA and ramp up for weapon heat, etc. Shouldn't just be open tops and never go above like 20-30 MOA maximum on the very end of a spray before overheat.

RWS and turreted guns having no spread whatsoever looks very stupid and makes them just a little too effective vs point targets like emplacements and single soldiers at rangee

[dire tartan]

Barrel overheating absolutely needs to be a thing, especially for machine guns like the MG3. It's fucking stupid how they can dump an entire mag after mag with no change in barrel harmonics at all or malfunctions.

[viral oracle]

Heavy MGs and autocannons overheat, also MMGs on vehicles but not soldier held weapons for some reason.

[dire tartan]

That's a really good point I didn't even think of. Completely forgot

[viral oracle]

All guns should overheat, dumb to also see a guy next to an ammo crate or bag dumping mag after mag with no effect.

[dire tartan]

Give MG 1 spare barrel to swap, give the rest to the ammo bag/crate

[viral oracle]

the 5.8 coax MGs on the Chinese Vehicles overheat pretty quick.

[crude pike]

Personally I’d just get rid of the overheating mechanic all together. As stated it only exists on vehicles and nowhere else. If it’s for balancing purposes just rebalance the vehicle in another way instead of making the soldier stop shooting for some reason

Like making accuracy decrease after a 3-5 second burst, or malfunctions if you fire for too long.

Barrel swaps for infantry weapons don’t really exist within the scope of squad. We’re talking like 600 rounds of just rapid fire. Which for most infantry kits would be all of their ammo by the time they’d have to swap barrels

[dire tartan]

MG3?

[crude pike]

Unsure I have no experience

[dire tartan]

Let me tell you, that barrel would be soup if people used it the way they do in squad

[wanton locust]

This basically never is an issue. if a Mg gunner can do that, the enemy team is incredibly incompetent.

Overheating for infantry weapons is not really needed

[viral oracle]

Why not have it though?

[dire tartan]

Sorry but if we've came to the consensus that they should be make more accurate, it absolutely is

[frail olive]

How about make MGs more accurate and reduce the spread significantly but as a compromise you have to watch your barrel temperature

[wanton locust]

no, because forcing the player to be stationary and deploy a bipod is already a major disadvantage

[dire tartan]

I do not want pre ICO MG3 again, that shit was terribly fucking OP.

[wanton locust]

no one proposed that

[crude pike]

I think a malfunction feature or a significant change in accuracy past the bursts that you’re supposed to would be balanced and realistic

[frail olive]

That would be a good compromise too

My only issue is the spread on the initial burst. Makes it really, really difficult to accurately target anything far out

[dire tartan]

Well as we've said, it's not meant to do that

That's the marksman rifles job

[wanton locust]

It would be completely unnecesarry. The consensus here seems to be that MGs should be accurate when used in short bursts. In this case an overheating mechanic is not needed, because it would only apply when the player uses the MG wrong and is already punished by poor accuracy.

[frail olive]

A 7.62x51mm absolutely is meant to do that. Don't necessarily have to be laser pinpoint accuracy but currently you can hardly get shots CLOSE to targets that are far out.

The spread is super apparent even at 100 meters.

[dire tartan]

The bullet is ofcourse. I'm saying the gun and barrel are not. They should be close if they aren't already

[frail olive]

Well I'm thinking M240B right now.

[dire tartan]

And that's fair

[dire tartan]

I figured

[frail olive]

I've went up against MGs at 50 meters

I didn't win but it still took wayyyy too long for them to kill me.

Seeing someone right in front of you, engaging him, and then all your bullets going left and right of him? How is that enjoyable or contributing to anything

[dire tartan]

We're they deployed? Kind of hard to shoulder fire a 30 lb machine gun

[frail olive]

It was, it was a PKM

[dire tartan]

Yeah that's bad then

[frail olive]

And when it comes to M240B - these MGs should definitely be able to target people at upwards of 300-500 meters. In real life and in Squad.

Now unlike pre-ICO, maybe they shouldn't be able to kill anyone as easily. I'm not saying it needs to be a laser beam.

But I need to be able to land a burst of rounds very very close to targets at that range.

[dire tartan]

Target people yes, make precise shots no.

[frail olive]

Yes.

I don't feel like that's possible rn??

I haven't played MG much but that's mostly because I switched kit after 5 mins

[dire tartan]

Not as good as they could be . They're neither accurate nor precise is the problem

[wanton locust]

someone on an open field should be an easy kill for a bipoded MG. They would have to be accurate enough to ensure this kill.

[dire tartan]

They should be precise, just not accurate

[frail olive]

I mean that's the thing with MGs, it's not the accuracy that kills you, it's the bursts of rounds coming your way, but when even those bursts are extremely inaccurate as they are right now, then what purpose do the MG's serve? Just only a suppression weapon?

SAW maybe but M240B should be able to do a bit more damage, imho.

It's a specialist kit.

[crude pike]

I feel like we’ve just come full circle at this point

Right back to the beginning of the post

[dire tartan]

Ideally it wouldn't be the MG that'd kill you. It'd be the flanking element of rifleman that would.

So yes that's kind of their main purpose

[frail olive]

MG keeps your head down while flanking element moves

MG suppresses

But

[wanton locust]

This is not how squad gameplay works

[frail olive]

If you expose yourself? Then yes absolutely MG should kill you lol

And that's exactly the problem here. Rn it doesn't.

[dire tartan]

It would be if people knew basic fire and maneuver drills.

It's entirely replicatable

[frail olive]

I mean I feel like this is basic stuff. I don't have to explain how deadly MG-42's were back in WW2. MGs still have the same concept. Yes they can be accurate and yes they can kill you.

[dire tartan]

I agree

[frail olive]

Yes

So

We reduce that spread a little bit, find a middle ground

[wanton locust]

those tactics do not work in this game. It is not real life. There is a reason why every comp player laughts at people who try fire and maneuver in this game

[frail olive]

Because depending on the range of your target, you could fire bursts at people in the open and none of your rounds will hit once.

[dire tartan]

I'd be fine with that so long as it's maintains its sole purpose of suppression past a hundred meters

[wanton locust]

Therefor it makes no sense to make game design decisions based on bad tactics.

[frail olive]

The problem isn't that it doesn't work, it's that most ppl who play Squad are either not capable of or too lazy to employ tactics and be coordinated like that

[dire tartan]

They absolutely do, it's kind of the entire reason suppresion was added tf?

[frail olive]

Yeah suppression is something me and my friends use a lot when we play together and it can work very well

But

[wanton locust]

So why do the most skilled and experienced players dont use it then?

[frail olive]

The majority of the playerbase won't be as coordinated as a group of friends who have tactical knowledge

[wanton locust]

If it would work, it would be meta to play this way

[dire tartan]

Because they're the same cretins would do nothing but bitch about how much they hate the ICO

[frail olive]

It wouldn't though, for the reason I mentioned above

[dire tartan]

Ofcourse they wouldn't use it, they'd rather spam Q and E like pre ICO to get a kill

[crude pike]

Fire and maneuver is not the be all end all of tactics but it absolutely applies to squad. Plenty of comp squads will use simple buddy tactics of covering and moving

[wanton locust]

maybe, but a team of those players would simply steamroll a team of milsimmers back to their mainbase within 20 minutes, even after the ICO.

[crude pike]

Or at a larger level place one hab to fix the enemy, then flank with another hab

[dire tartan]

Doubt it

That's assuming those "players"wouldnt employ real world tactics. Yeah they'd get stomped by the normies that do.

[wanton locust]

how so that they have stats like 30-4, while players who try real life tactics usually have negative stats or barely manage 10 kills? Because. It. Does. Not. Work.

[dire tartan]

You're gonna have to provide some sort of evidence of that. Never seem it

Winning games isn't about killing to begin with.

That's a secondary

[crude pike]

I’ve seen milsimmers go 30-4 too like what’s your point

Do we just keep bringing up personal examples

[dire tartan]

That's what I'm wondering

[frail olive]

Maybe not every single round, but me and my group of friends of 4-5 have also gotten KD's like that before.

[crude pike]

Like do you have any evidence other than “trust me bro” or “I’ve seen it” that comp teams are better?

[wanton locust]

Show me any squad comp gameplay where someone tries real life tactics

[crude pike]

You’re the one making the claim you have to provide the proof

[frail olive]

Wdym

[dire tartan]

The burden of proof is on you lol

[frail olive]

We're not talking about comp players man, we're saying fire and manouever tactics can work

Maybe not 100% of the time but it can

[wanton locust]

yeah, but the difference is that they got it because the enemy players were even worse. experienced comp players have thats like this 9/10 rounds.

[crude pike]

If it doesn’t work that’s because it doesn’t work in real life. Tactics fail sometimes

Doesn’t mean the tactic sucks, just means it failed

[wanton locust]

If the enemy team is incompetent enough, evey tactic can work.

[dire tartan]

Okay?

[wanton locust]

But the game should not be designed around bad tactics, it should be designed around the meta gameplay.

[frail olive]

Well in my experience most teams on normal public servers, especially modded ones, are quite incompetent.

And once again, that is because the average Squad player does not pay much attention to tactics or is very coordinated

[crude pike]

Doesn’t that also apply to comp squads, like they do better because the enemy team was incompetent

Like none of your arguments make any sense and revolve around this “I’ve seen it bro” evidence

[wanton locust]

So anyway it makes no sense to desgin a kit in a way, which makes it useless because it is impossible to use it in its indended role

[wanton locust]

You can go on YT and watch any comp game you like, i can guarantee you that no one will attempt fire and maneuver there.

[crude pike]

The meta is the tactics. The devs create the meta, not the other way around

[rain dune]

https://imgur.com/ajustable-0Kol6T0 compers vs milsimmers

[dire tartan]

Link don't work

[rain dune]

Oh shit it’s deleted

[wanton locust]

Not really. The meta is the result of how the game mechanics work in practice, not how the devs intended it to work.

[crude pike]

Which they can modify through suppression and the ICO to reflect tactics

[rain dune]

https://i.imgur.com/H5WZlaF.png

[wanton locust]

They can try it, but the result in this case is that within the current meta the MG is a useless kit, because it can only supress and not kill.

[dire tartan]

So this doesn't show a single person going 30 and 1 or something

[crude pike]

Yes which is why they need to modify to make it more realistic

[dusty condor]

Oof

[crude pike]

How does this prove they are not using realistic tactics. Ok they can roll a bad team, that’s not the question

[dire tartan]

Really grasping at straws now are we

[wanton locust]

yes because the game was over before they could spawn in enough times to enable 30-4, the other team has 2 kills

[crude pike]

The only thing that really stands out is the amount of revives from the milsims compared to the comp

[wanton locust]

i dont think you are looking at the correct team.

[dire tartan]

Speaking of which, they need to make the medic the only person that could revive again. That's such a stupid change they made

[crude pike]

They definitely came closer to it with the ICO basically requiring you to find a medic to be effective

I really don’t mind the current implementation but I don’t play medic much and tbh I just give up most of the time cause I don’t care much

[rain dune]

Guess which one is a milsim and which one is a comp team, don’t worry I have way more evidence 😉

[crude pike]

Cool you rolled a bad team, show the tactics

And I guarantee you I can draw a parallel to realistic tactics

[hushed hornet]

theres no tactics needed to roll a bad team

[crude pike]

Also doesn’t matter in the first place as I don’t care about meta players, I just want to have fun doing realistic tactics with my homies

[dire tartan]

Is the left milsim? Those squad names seem way too technical to not be

[crude pike]

Not min maxing my soul away

Anyway unlike yall comp players I have a job so imma be gone for a while

Have fun

[rain dune]

No just sarcasm

[dire tartan]

The left team is not the milsim team?

[wanton locust]

No, they won

[dire tartan]

I'll have to watch a video of that.

[rain dune]

Nope

[hushed hornet]

do you have screens from 20v20 comp vs milsim ? i think i saw one floating around too

[rain dune]

I mean there is a lot of them

This thread is fascinating on what the average blueberry thinks

[wanton locust]

maybe we should stick to the topic

[kindred kindle]

Nah, it’s called bro is clueless. Look it up

[pearl crag]

guy clearly has never shot a MG and thinks that the recoil is realistic, truth is they made it like that so u can survive the MG since people were angry about MG being laser accurate pre ICO

but the fact is, if the MG can literally see you close range, they will probably laser you to death by then

"realistic tactics" don't matter when i can just use armor and shit on anything i see, theres zero realism with the game right now due to the shitty implemented recoil and movement

[surreal venture]

so embarassing..

[clever lagoon]

not really, they are made to be as accurate as possible without sacrificing barrell lifetime (so not as precise as a sniper rifle that shoots a bullet every blue moon, despite being the same lenght) It is a bit over the top, especially for GPMGs

[keen steppe]

Not really no. "Creating a META" would imply it is done deliberately and that there was planning and thought put into the changes that would accomodate the new META. That is not OWI's approach. Best thing OWI Devs can do is nerf a certain playstyle and hope that they didn't introduce an even whackier playstyle.

[keen steppe]

Ev just loves having absolute L takes, must be some sort of a humiliation fetish at this point

[azure arrow]

"Ad hominen!!!!!!"