#German Sd.kfz 251 needs price adjustment

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sinful crypt
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I mostly only play the German faction and only going to speak for them with regards to this suggestion and idea post. I believe the following change is needed for the German SD.Kfz 251 series:

1. Cost Reduction:
The German Sd.Kfz. 251 series most basic unit is comprised of the following at the cost of 39 battle score (BS) for 1st infantry battalion:

1x Sd.Kfz 251
8x Crew/Staff of which 3 are Gunners, 1 Squad Leader, 2 Rifleman, and 2 SMG Infantry.
2 Rifleman = 1.6 (BS)
2 SMG = 2.4 (BS)
1 Squad Leader = Assume Same as 1 SMG = 1.2 (BS)

So in all, the Infantry of the basic Sd.Kfz 251 is worth 5.2 excluding the 3 Gunners (well include them in a moment with micromanage acquisition of the MG-34s). This means that the Sd.Kfz 251 is worth 33.8 (BS). An armored vehicle that can be taken out within a couple hits of an anti tank rifle which is given for free in front line through AI, costs 33.8 (BS). Its main armament is 1x Front Mounted 7.92mm MG-34 and 1x Rear Mounted 7.92mm MG-34. So lets look at the costs of an MG-34 squad.

The MG Squad MG 34 costs 28 of which you get 2x MG Assistants, 2x Machine Gunners, and a Squad Leader. Each unit costs 5.6 (BS). So we can say that of the 33.8 (BS) of the Sd.Kfz 251, 11.2 is the Machine Gunners of that vehicle. That puts the cost of the Sd.Kfz 251 at 22.6 (BS) by itself. That is more expensive than a BF-109. More expensive than a Minenraumpanzer 3 (minesweeper tank). 22.6 (BS) in the same battalion equals 5 squads of Rifleman or 25 Rifleman in total. So one Sd.Kfz 251 without machine guns equals 25 rifleman who come equipped with sandbags, shovels, at grenade, and ap grenades. For some reason as well, the Sd.Kfz. 251/1 is more expensive than the Sd.Kfz. 251/17 which comes equipped with a 20mm autocannon which is 23 (BS) by itself making the Sd.Kfz. 251 cost 7 (BS). Why does the Sd.Kfz. 251/17 vehicle cost 7 (BS) and the Sd.Kfz. 251/1 vehicle cost 22.6 (BS)? Something isnt adding up here.

I propose that the basic Sd.Kfz. 251/1 be reduced by 15 (BS) putting it a general (BS) of 24. Which I think is a fair price for what you get.

1x Sd.Kfz. 251/1 = 7 (BS)
2x Machine Gunners = 11.1 (BS)
5 Infantry = 5.2 (BS)

Which equals... 24 (23.3 actually but well round up)

hallow moth
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Upvote for the math !

Screen_Shot_2020-07-24_at_11.png
sinful crypt
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It maths

rare heath
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for the cost of the unit you essentially get a mobile MG that is immune to small arms, with a good variety in the squad that is ale to be spread out because its a divisible unit, it costs the nearly the same as an MG42 suad but if i were to put an MG squad vs a half track on its own it would depend on who spots who mfirst, and if its thehlaf track with its infanty to spot for it, then the hhalf track will win

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not to metion the mobility you get from it to drop off infantry really fast and act as support for that infantry especially when it comes to raiding buildings,

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that and you are particualarily using 1st inf which i think is a weak place to use them in because you get ZERO discount for the unit itself which is how you get that 39 pt cost problem, and the reason you only pay that much for a 251/17 is that you have no infantry with it so your math isnt evven correct, the 251/17 is 30 pts because its the only thing you get out of it

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, no infantry, just the vehicle, which for an infantry batttalion unless you preserve it by focusing on the AA aspect hits hard because you spend a slot and the pts for a unit that cant cap

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that and if you want to use the 251/1 as a main force, you use 4th motorized for the 20 percent discount which reduces the cost of the 251/1 ( and every single variant of it) to 32 pts(251/1) and is available at ech 1 rather than the ech 2 of 1st inf. even the 251/10 is available by then and it gets 2 extra MGS on the side while both being heaper than an MG squad, AND getting that extra inf inside when playing 4th infantry

sinful crypt
# rare heath yeah, no. I play the grman faction as well, and yore mostly looking at this from...

This is a game of economy with tactics. Spending your economy better than your opponent with more counters and of course the intrinsic value of how you use the unit. I'll counter some of your points here:

  1. The Machine gunners included in the 251 are soft targets and can die to small arms fire.
  2. PVP Battalion games come with free AI Anti-Tank Rifleman who can one shot your 251. Its intrinsic value is limited at best or very niche.
  3. US and Soviet halftracks can and will destroy a 251 with their gun. The MG 42 cannot reciprocate.
  4. Infantry are faster than the half track when sprinting. Its mobility is 22 which is the same as a Panzer 4 H.
  5. I used the first battalion as no discounts applied as its a generalist division and a good control. Its value is 39 Battle Score.
  6. You completely missed the point on the 251/17
  7. 32 points for it is still to much battle score with what you get.
  8. You are talking about other 251's which arent included in this convo.
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When you break apart the 251/17 into two parts, 1x Flak 38 wanna be and 1x S.KFz its 30 points. The flak 38 by itself is 23 meaning that the sdk in the 251/17 is 7. Why is there a price discrepancy?

rare heath
rare heath
sinful crypt
rare heath
sinful crypt
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The SDK is the same cost as a BF-109 when broken down and it is nowhere near the same intrinsic value.

rare heath
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not really for what i can do i think its the right price especially for 4th motorized

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consider this

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if you make it 30 pts then 4th motorized gets a 20 percent discunt

sinful crypt
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Imo, the german motorized is currently gimped by the high cost of the apc which isnt worth the battle score

rare heath
sinful crypt
rare heath
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those things are going to get mogged by any other infantry

sinful crypt
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They need to be cheaper to be viable imo

sinful crypt
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They one shot infantry

rare heath
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they dont

sinful crypt
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I play them

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I bring them to all my pvp matches

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They are the same as rifleman with a slightly lower rate of fire

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Higher damage

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And, they cost me 2 bs per squad of 4

rare heath
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is that the same discount that would apply to 4th mechnized

sinful crypt
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I understand that, the point is tho, when you have values like this, apc's need to be cheaper AND they need to be uniform

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an SDK with flak 38 shouldnt be the 3x cheaper than a sdk with 2 machine guns

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not including the infantry value

rare heath
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not really you have to look at the benefit of the unit itself

sinful crypt
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I get the intrinsic value of the apc

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But one shot kill is a one shot kill

rare heath
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the hlaf tracks ain value is speed, and if you are just ramming it into the enemy of course it will do terrible

sinful crypt
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APC require heavy micro

rare heath
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you drive around your enemy whre he isnt

sinful crypt
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Hiding behind buildings until needed etc

rare heath
sinful crypt
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SDKs cost differently between units, the values dont match

rare heath
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a lot of the game is part what about isms

sinful crypt
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not economy, its pretty straightforward, its how they price things

rare heath
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also the AT rifle spread is terrible

sinful crypt
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you can spam them lol

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they cost 4 cp

rare heath
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yeah i can spam infantry better, and remeber were bothing playing infantry

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and mine cost 5 and includes 2 SMGs

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and nades

sinful crypt
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when you take 4 shots from the pzb 41, there isnt much left of your apc or crew

rare heath
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thats why you pre drop

sinful crypt
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the other issue is the cost of the obel blitz

rare heath
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you drop before enetering the line

sinful crypt
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vastly overpriced

sinful crypt
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some dont

rare heath
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meh, its meh at best, its cheaper as no armor

sinful crypt
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the apc you rely on for support will get merced at a much cheaper cost on my end

rare heath
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cost exactly 5 CP

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essentially you only pay CP for the infantry

sinful crypt
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Even if i lose the 4 at rifleman, it cost me 2

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Your apc cost you 39

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Or 32 if playing with discount

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and you could have brought a squad of infantry for 6 instead

rare heath
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yeah but the APC is a bons usually

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and the way their speed works is that you get there first with the APC

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kill the AI

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see if they arrive first

sinful crypt
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222 counters that tactic hard

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i can bring 2 squads of at rifleman and a 222

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for ech 1

rare heath
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then youre playing mechannized as well

sinful crypt
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no i play the 8th only

rare heath
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then i bring an 8 rad

sinful crypt
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Your 39 apc is dead to my free bf-109

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or my 222

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or my spam of at

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its too costly imo, the apc needs to be cheaper

rare heath
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i mean heres another thing you forget

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armor isnt a flat value

sinful crypt
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german armor usually is

rare heath
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it isnt just 17, i would give it a 25-30 fom the front from my experience

sinful crypt
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that was a joke

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lol

sinful crypt
rare heath
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thenits not on papaer

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its the slope

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so depending on how the thing is angled it isnt 17

sinful crypt
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here are real world values: Armor 6–14.5 millimetres (0.24–0.57 in)

rare heath
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yeah

sinful crypt
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They gave it more in game

rare heath
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armor accounts for angling in the game

sinful crypt
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and thickness depends on slope and distance

rare heath
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yeah so 17 sometimes jsut goes into 25-30

sinful crypt
rare heath
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ah no, thit also depends on distance

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because AT rifles have horrendous spread

sinful crypt
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pzb 41 pen is 18-40mm

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we can test it out in game if youd like

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Anti Tank rifles were effective against apcs and i get that, i think they are too expensive for this game. They need to be cheaper to be effective

rare heath
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nah, im just going to try to figure it out on my own once i find a way to test it

sinful crypt
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What are your thoughts on the 31 bs opel blitz

rare heath
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because i have face AT rifles as 4th

rare heath
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and speed

sinful crypt
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Their redeeming value is the 16 more mobility than the apc

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the apc is the same speed as a medium tank

rare heath
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they cost 0 effectively while an APC costs 4-5 Cp

sinful crypt
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what

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One opel blitz is 25 smg infantry...

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You think thats worth the cost?

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you have expensive tastes my friend

rare heath
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consider thid

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theyre not recruit infantry

sinful crypt
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neither are the smg infantry im talking about

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they are regulars

rare heath
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on opel in 4th is 25 pts?

sinful crypt
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lets get fancy with it, veterans are 9 a piece

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that should be their normal cost imo

rare heath
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which is why you might as well go 32 for a 251/1

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because at least MGs wont pen you

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and at a decent distance AA cannons actually cant pen you for that much damage

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or accuracy

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ive been shooting a bofors at a 251 and it took at least a good minute of it sitting still about 60 m from it to even get it to 1 thirfd of its health with manual shooting

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because the halftracks arent papern and AT rifles arent the only thret

sinful crypt
rare heath
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yeah im not penning sometimes

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just happens

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or is the distance scaling weird i cant tell cause if thats more than 100 then oh that is not difficult to get that far

sinful crypt
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Are you shooting HE?

rare heath
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why HE

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of course AP

sinful crypt
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kk

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Then it should be penning

rare heath
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then its distance

sinful crypt
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No slope on the sdk is going to get it to 59mm of armor lol

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from 60m

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Crazy if it is in game

rare heath
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ive seen armor go to 600

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dont ask how

sinful crypt
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lol

rare heath
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it was an IS3 sloping down a hill

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somehow getting to 600 armor at one point when aiming at it

sinful crypt
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crazy

rare heath
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so something getting 6 ties the armor value isnt abnormal

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or is it 4 times

sinful crypt
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The apc is ineffective at 60m

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might as well not have it

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and the cp costs for the sd.kfz is 9

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nuts

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i can bring 2 squads of at rifleman for that

rare heath
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ah turret is 259 armor so times 2.5 the armor from sloping

sinful crypt
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and have room for a 222

rare heath
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also dont forget the general ack of utility from AT rifle men

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they dont get smoke

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which doubles your aim spread going in and out

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and they dont get stadard nades

sinful crypt
rare heath
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i dont know how this game calculates it

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but i think its dependent on how each player plays his units in AT rifle vs half track because smoke is a funny spread thing

wide ingot
rare heath
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that is actually another point all the motorized infantry in APCs cost around the same at about 30 ish in their motorized battalions. the added quirk is the 251/1(10) actually have the most armor of the APCs

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this actually means they are inpenetrable to 30 cals while every other APC is shredded by them at close range, whch comes in handy n killing MG AI

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so unless you reduce the respetive m2a1s by the same amount then there is not muh reason to reduce the 251s cost

sinful crypt
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And now AT rifles are more accurate out to 80-100m as of tomorrows update

rare heath