Make returning to base meaningful

[raw plaza]

Currently it's not worth to rtb even with the reward for it, unless you are low on money. Destroying a lot of targets and instantly "teleport" back to base is way more effective.
I believe it's always possible to make realistic behaviours the most optimal and fun way to play with the right game mechanics.

RTB
Players should not get rewards for their kills unless they return to base. If they eject they only get the reward if and when their pilot gets rescued.
This could be an optional rule in the map settings.
But I think after getting used to it this would make the game feel more exciting as it brings the focus more on survival.

SAR
This would make search and rescue way more important and rewarding. When saving a friendly or enemy pilot the rescuer should get a cut of their kill reward. You can think of the pilots as bags of money. When a plane is shot down after a particularly good run it becomes a race to get the pilot.
Not everyone likes to do SAR so the AI should do it as well. Scout cars should go out of their way to save pilots. Also small boats should be added in the future to help on the water. AI Helicopters. Not to mention players can already give orders on the map to vehicles to approach their pilots.

**Why is this better than the limited lives suggestion? **
I'm not opposed to the teams having limited lives like in Battlefield. It could work well with this system.
But limited lives can be ignored by players that don't care about team play. Also just with limited lives suicide runs are still worth it if you kill at least one enemy player. It only punishes teams that have inexperienced players.
Getting payed only after RTB cannot be ignored because it effects the player instead of the team. And the more you kill the more important it becomes to be careful. It works more as a risk-reward system.

Isn't this too punishing?
Low tier planes and helicopters for SAR should always be available from passive income and requisition.

Doing a suicide run can still be worth it on a strategic level, and that's fine. It's just not sustainable. A suicide nuke can be an epic game ender instead of a cheesy exploit.

[severe grail]

Simple change to monkey brain players into being more careful:

during a sortie display the gained money and points separately as a sortie current rewards, when landing play a neuron activation animation of this being added to your account. When crashing and not making it back play a very dramatic animation of your income being cut and you only getting the non sortie bonus amount.

Therefore the sortie bonus isn't seen as a bonus, rather crashing is seen as a reduced income.

[raw plaza]

It should be like loot in other games. You need to bring it backs.

[severe grail]

Second change: name the pilots

Ejection over enemy territory → Lt. John N. Option M.I.A

[severe grail]

You shouldn't be required to make it back to get rewards but it should be seen as you not getting full rewards by crashing rather than you getting a bonus for landing

[raw plaza]

Monkey brain activation is good but not enough. It should be worth it on a meta gaming level for the hardcore players who use spreadsheets.

[nimble prawn]

this is quite good. Adds upon Worne's idea but acts as a compromise to not make the game do a 180 instantly. Just make the neuron activation/sortie bonus significant enough (maybe 50% total or sth)

[raw plaza]

No compromise. If you still get a percentage of your kill reward without returning that just makes suicide nuking sustainable again. While not really giving much of a help if you just killed one or two wehicles.

[astral basin]

Default sortie bonus is already +50%, it's just that it's currently more than possible to purchase what you need without that bonus.

I think outright removing immediate rewards would probably be too much, but skewing payouts heavily towards the sortie bonus instead of up-front would be good. Holding onto the reward if an ejected pilot survives and paying it out if they're rescued also seems great - encourages going for safe ejects.

[novel jackal]

on the limited pilots experiment i believe something like Tiny Combat Arena does it perfectly, unlimited airframes but limited pilots needing to be rescued or returned safely, you can crash your harrier but aslong as the pilot is alive you can fly again

[hazy arch]

skill issue wants me to say no, but honestly I can’t not agree with how damn op it is to just nuke run then gain +300m cash

[astral basin]

It's also just sort of goofy that the most efficient way to play is to bail out of your aircraft the moment you hit your target to get back in the air as quickly as possible.

Reworking the rewards system wouldn't COMPLETELY fix it, but it'd be a good step.

[raw plaza]

The title is a bit misleading. Encouraging returning to base is actually not the main point of this suggestion.
It has multiple goals that would be fixed by this change.
-Main one is making suicide nuking unsustainable.
-Makes recklessly running at enemy not worth it.
-**Risk-reward game mechanic that has a chance to stop a match snowballing. **
-Making survival more important the more kills you get.
-Encouraging safe ejections over crashing.
-Meaningful SAR.
Getting any of these is good, but the first 3 (and most important) points would not work if we still get a percentage bonus after a crash.

If you are afraid of going broke that can be fixed by finetuning the passive income and requisition.

[hazy arch]

you do lose out a few milli if you eject though

i never found the loss of aircraft worth the +2 minutes of airtime

also the ability to support the broke players through reqs assuming your team isn’t req’ing when they have enough cash to buy

[astral basin]

The time you spend flying back is also time that could've been spent earning money and having battlefield impact though, and in the slower/cheaper aircraft that time very much can be the cost of an airframe (or often in the case of something like the compass you've got such a huge pile of reservable airframes that you're not even paying for them).

Throwing away Ifrits or Vortexes is definitely not sustainable, but they're also the ones where it's least punishing to make the trip back to base.

[raw plaza]

Good point

[crystal adder]

respawn timer ?

[raw plaza]

Miss read at first.
Game mechanics that make you not play the game is newer good.

[crystal adder]

i guess, just don’t eject and you get to play the game

it’s a punitive option rather than rewarding. So a better solution can probably be found

[shrewd sandal]

I mainly RTB for fun or for swag points, if grinding to win a match it's more efficient to suicide.

[severe grail]

Imo worst one is the Medusa; You are actively hurting your team by going through the process of landing and rearming in the medusa rather than ejecting and getting back to jamming as fast as possible

[shrewd sandal]

K/D ratio would maybe encourage power players to RTB

[raw plaza]

Only some. K/D is only good for flexing, not for winning.

RTB to get payed is the fix.

[severe grail]

Doesn't help with non A2A gameplay

[shrewd sandal]

Yeah, even tracking deaths at least would somewhat shame a player who is really chucking themselves suiciding over and over. Then we'd also have the death/point ratio

[astral basin]

Doesn't matter when suicide runs remain optimal/unpunished mechanically.

Fixing the issue only for the people vain enough to care about their K/D over actually winning a match isn't actually fixing the issue.

[tacit vigil]

i would way pefer a pilot ticket system; make the system partially personal rather than focusing on the entire team, so others aren't or are less punished by singular people dying too much

[raw plaza]

Why not both?

[boreal shadow]

Let players recoup their cash if their pilot is rescued by SAR. It would encourage people to actually escort SAR aircraft.

[raw plaza]

Yes. That's part of the suggestion. If your pilot is saved you get the money from that mission.

[stiff rune]

i'm still of the opinion that money holds little importance when reserves are free

[lavish bobcat]

I don't really have much to say about this except for "I agree", but NO does somewhat lack a way of sharing vital information in a clear way. Since you can adjust many things during mission making it would be nice to have some sort of "Mission briefing" tab in the map view, in which the mission maker could write anything and players could access it any time during the mission.

[tacit vigil]

if you defend from a major push and get shot down, you keep nothing until someone does SAR

[woven lodge]

Not only pilots, but when there are controllable drones I hope that returning material to bases will have positive impacts on an eventual supply system/supply chain for bases.

[hazy arch]

I guess? but especially with requisitioned aircraft, it’s best to return and give to the broke people still

[raw plaza]

Fair point.
It would help if getting rank would also be slower.
You need money to get high tier planes when you have low level.
Weapons are not free. High end weapons are expensive.
The economy could be balance in a way that you need a successful sorties to get high tier weapons.
Or alternatively it could be that only low tier planes could be requisitioned.

[hazy arch]

i had one RTB give me somewhere between 150 minimum to maybe 250+ points, this definitely should be added

[raw plaza]

If you were defending you were likely shot down near friendly units. That speeds up recovery.
You might also have reserve money.

[low jetty]

Giving zero cash if you don't make it back would make it tremendously hard for new players, late joiners, and the losing team to put up a fight, and not really make much of a difference for suicide nukes since the monetary payoff of those is secondary to the game-winning damage they cause.
Also SAR is so unfun most people wouldn't do it even if it was well rewarded, I suppose AI SAR with players fighting to defend/stop it could work but good luck getting the AI to pick semi-sensible paths and targets when it currently nukes friendlies on the regular.

[tacit vigil]

75% of the time your pilot will not land next to a ground unit; maybe if recon trucks went out of their way or pathfind well enough to do SAR
"have reserve money" would be the same exact punishment if you died trying to suicide nuke

[raw plaza]

Not zero money. You just don't get money for the kills. But you do get your passive income.
AI doing SAR well is needed for this.
Don't want to make suicide nuking impossible just unsustainable.

[severe grail]

Mission briefing would be nice

[raw plaza]

Defending against an enemy push, should means enemy pilots will be ejecting on your side of the map.
An addition should be that if A friendly AI captures an enemy pilot that you shot down you get rewarded.

And if you join a team that's already losing horribly than it's losing. This is not a fix for that.
As I said low tier planes should always be available, that should help.

[jade sand]

I like this, it's a much better option than just having a respawn timer like every other game.

[raw plaza]

Yeah if they have a lot of reserve money than yes it doesn't matter much to them that they don't get reward for suicide nuking.. But if they already fought and win so many battles to have that much money than they are already wining anyways.

[lavish bobcat]

Yeah, well I made a mission where each player has a limited pool of cash and there are no rewards for killing anything (so in order to preserve your funds/airframe you HAVE to return alive) and itd be nice to be able to communicate that to the players somehow.

[onyx dragon]

I somewhere told you...

1. High successful sortie bonus with low kill bonus.
2. Limites lifes with ability to increase them by rescuing missions.

This is the best ways for it.
Nothing else will can significantly change players behaviour back to the base and not die

[raw plaza]

It’s based on all the feedback I read. Credit goes out to you guys. It just makes sense.

[severe grail]

Also showing what you lost by not returning to base

[onyx dragon]

Yeah. Little pain...

[shrewd sandal]

Make it so every friendly pilot on the ground adds 1 second to your respawn timer. RTB naturally skips the respawn timer even if you have to swap planes.

[severe grail]

20 minutes into terminal control and you have a 60 minute respawn

[hazy arch]

unsure about #2, it might cause the newer players to turn down the game especially if they’re trying to get used to pvp (let alone people new to aviation

[shrewd sandal]

1 second per pilot... 1200 pilots? cmon man

As long as suiciding is faster than RTB a wealthy player / pilot will always suicide. Doesn't have to be even wealthy as long as you can afford the next sortie. I don't know why some sort of spawn delay is so unpopular.

[jade sand]

3600 pilots, since he said 60 minute respawn.

[low jetty]

Getting hit with a respawn timer because someone else is doing suicide runs sounds like a recipe for griefing.

[severe grail]

Hyperbole my guy 💔

[jade sand]

I assumed you were exaggerating, I just wanted the math to math 🙂

[lavish bobcat]

Im having some extra thoughts.

Feel like this whole issue stems from the economy being kinda borked. If it were up to me id get rid of monetary rewards and make people fight over finite resources (airframes, weapons, warheads, ground units). Provide each team at the start with enough Compasses and Ibises so they can last for a while but if they wanted to upgrade to Ifrits and Medusas theyd have to find, grab and bring special containers with these resources back to their bases.

Once the team runs out of airframes and cant fly anything anymore its just game over.

Recently, ive been trying to replicate this as best as I can but currently the mission editor doesnt have all the functions needed for this to work. Also, people are already used to getting their money back for any action they perform, so I had to keep explaining why the game was set the way it was, which was fairly annoying.

[stiff rune]

Regarding the abundance of airframes, I think there should be some cap to the amount that can be stockpiled
Not only (in my opinion) is the production generally excessive, but by the time players unlocks let's say, an ifrit, the faction already has 40+ of them in storage. Therefore the team will not run out of them any time soon

Plus a lot of things are up to the map maker, there should probably be a window that displays a faction's total production (or economy in general) with all of it's factories. (I don't make maps, so that may be already a thing)
So that mission creators can judge when they've placed too many production facilities

[lavish bobcat]

Well, thats exactly why Id like to have the ability to make the airframes localized and in containers that have to be brought back. Not a huge fan of factories producing airframes that immediately get teleported to the teams inventory, but I hope it will either change or the editor will allow for some more customization like that.

And I agree about the cap.

[stiff rune]

Definitely, it really upsets me how one carrier can spew out an infinite amount of planes.
Taking an airbase boils down to repeatedly trying to slip bombs through over and over, because you can't simply drain all the interceptors via attrition

(I'm also mad that when I shoot down an attacking ifrit, 2 more immediately show up before I can even land)
It makes playing CAP feel like a sisyphean task, because a loss of an airframe is never impactful to the enemy, they can just try again right away

But we need AI logistics before implementing any localized resources, as not everyone is willing to play aero truck simulator every game.
Protecting AI transports should suffice most of the time, unless the delivery is particularly urgent or risky

[jagged prawn]

that would give way to rewards such as a "logistical flight"

if your origin airfield stock of your current vehicle is above a threshold and the origin (where you land) stock of your current vehicle is below a certain threshold, the flight is regarded as a logistical flight which transfers the plane with a reward for you
(perhaps, the reward for such a flight could be 1 freely placeable spawn...?)

[severe grail]

I don't want some crazy foxhole type logistics system, but it should definitely exist in a form you can disrupt other than blowing up factories.

Maybe like AI transport aircraft that are from a separate pool of pilots than the AI combat units

I'm going to split this give me a minute to write a new thread

[lavish bobcat]

Me neither, but I think we need some kind of scarcity, or at least ability to introduce it while making our own missions, in order to make airframes much more meaningful and returning to base a desired behaviour.

[pearl totem]

or convoys

[severe grail]

https://discord.com/channels/909034158205059082/1420742264929521714

[raw plaza]

I like this. Can be a good alternative because it makes for a similar gameplay to what I'm going for. What I'm missing from it and should be added is a way to individually reward players to do objectives and discourage players from wasting resources. If it's all on a team level that can lead to toxicity. But these issues can be addressed with additional game mechanics.

[raw plaza]

Okay now that I read the suggestion on improved airframe logistics I see it more as a separate system than an alternative. Both can be added to the game because both add something different.

[jade sand]

Hmm, I could see it working but I suspect it would be difficult to balance since it would exacerbate the snowballing effect of a successful team becoming more and more powerful and leaving little recourse for the losing team to make a comeback.

[raw plaza]

-The supply of free to requisition, low tier planes such as Compass, Ibis, Cricket, and future equivalents should be increased to guarantee that players can fight back even after getting shot down multiple times in a row.
-Meanwhile medium tier planes for requisition should be at a much lower number.
-Maybe high tier planes should not even be available for requisition.

I see now that payment can be more than 0 without returning to base as long as it pays less than the cost of a nuke. This way players don't feel like their efforts go fully in wain when shot down but suicide nuking remains only strategically beneficial but not financially sustainable.

The graph is not to exact measurements but more or less shows the idea.

[onyx dragon]

Game functions almost this functional, you can place several neutral factories get tara and capture them by afv/lcv and in this case you will get additional production to something units type. I already tried to do it in my industrialization mission, it works, but people dont know about ability capturing of factories and how to do it

[onyx dragon]

You already talk about my pronciples how i like to do missions, almost same model exist in my Primeva Liberation Operation, this pretty interesting, but absolutely non chill, and pretty hard

[lavish bobcat]

Im aware of all this but currently theres no cap to how many airframes a team can have in total. The ability to capture factories in itself isnt the problem nor does it fix anything thats currently wrong with the economy.

I dont feel like explaining the rest of my views again, so I will leave you with that. Right now I just want neutral and universal containers we can use to store anything. Seems like itd be the easiest and quickest fix for most of the problems Im having with the current economy.

[vague hawk]

Can you capture enemy factories? I've tried once and it seemed to do nothing

[haughty drift]

Imo, a big reason why RTB is completely sidestepped by most of the playerbase is the fact that it is boring, you are not doing anything useful, enjoyable or hepful to the team while RTB and there's really no point to it if you have enough cash.
Sure, if I am in a Vortex, Revoker or Ifrit, it is not painful at all and even fun in a way. 5 minutes tops and you're rearmed, refuelled, and doing the next combat mission.
Any of the slow movers? It's going to take me 10 painful minutes to get to the warzone, I'll participate in 3 minutes of action, and then I'll be flying back to base which will take another 10 painful minutes. It's especially insidious with early deep strikes or any infiltrations and the fact that most slow movers cost nearly nothing.
And doing a bombing run in a Darkreach loses even more meaning and is 10x times less fun than even now. You're taking 10-20 minutes to get to the altitude and location, drop the bombs for 5 seconds or less, then you're taking 10-20 minutes to get back to base. All of this, tastefully punctuated with one-two evasive maneuvres, burning capacitors on SARHs and maybe some flares on IRs and turning the radar on/off maybe sometimes.
Punishing this playstyle even more by making it even riskier without "skipping" the 2nd boring part is not going to bode well. If anything, it will kill the Darkreach as anything but a Tusko/Piledriver delivery platform because you can do that safely and RTB in under 5 minutes, aka the timeline of a fast mover like the IRV triad.

1/2

But I will admit. I don't have a better solution that I can offer right now. I am sure that a VOIP of some kind will ease the pain by at least allowing you to do some callouts comfortably without relying on the text messages half of the players on the servers won't read, but that's multiplayer only. Time compression for singleplayer, but how do you handle physics and hostile missiles/guns?
And even with these two solutions, the problem still remains: RTB is boring for slow movers, feels useless for the player and IS useless for the team as a whole, unless the team is big enough and works in complete synchronization, covering each other and constantly rotating missions and airframes. So, maybe something to do while RTB? But what? RTS-mode is not exactly fun for everyone and an on-board online casino might sound fun, but is clearly nonsense for NO.
2/2

[lavish bobcat]

^Thats a relatively easy fix. Just have FOBs for all the Crickets, Ibises and Taras, which you can build by bringing in some special containers or other vehicle that serves as a local command centre/ATC.

[haughty drift]

^I've thought about it, but it does not necessarily solve the Darkreach problem. Plus to set the FOBs up, you most certainly have to clear things out first, exasperated by the fact that currently all things logi are handled by the same slow movers. This means that we're talking about at least half an hour of in-game time to set things up in singleplayer for something like Escalation, not counting all the times you're getting your FOB demolished by enemy AI (skill issue). Plus the frontline is constantly moving and evolving and whatnot, which means there are going to be matches where FOBs are entirely useless wastes of time which only hurt the war effort. And we're circling back to the main issue: it's still objectively better to sacrifice your kills-for-cash just to avoid the tedium.
Multiplayer, whether PVE or PVP, obviously a whole different beast, but almost certainly needs some kind of balancing still.

[stiff rune]

FOBs take a lot of time to set up and are always a first priority bomb target
try to capture the enemy highway strip on heartland and see how well that goes

[lavish bobcat]

Good to know. Thank God NO is a game and not real life.

[crystal adder]

More ACE-style gameplay would be awesome, we have most of the tools with tara, ibis, jackknife... ; but i think it needs 3 things :

• Maps designed more around it, with lots of places to build bases, perhaps larger maps.
• The ability to spawn at FARPs once they have been built up with enough supplies. (good logistics should be a way to win wars !)
• Better teamplay elements, ways to draw on the map like in Squad. Show that you want to build a base in a certain place, show your team that you are gonna bring a tara with certain supplies somewhere, ask for fighter escort, or for another tara with more air defenses to defend the FARP. Ways for the whole team to actually see FARPs on the map.

When i first started playing i was very disapointed when I relaized that the Tarantula couldn't do as much meaningful logistics as I expected. You can't capture airfields by dropping units unless they are already complitely destroyed, and resuplying Dynamos gets quite repetitive because it's safe airlifting in the backline.

[stiff rune]

ibis is fast and agile enough to sometimes cap intact airfields
but you're still extremely vulnerable to freshly spawned enemy helicopters, even with perfect CAP on your team (they can shoot you even before taking off)

[onyx dragon]

Need will be in mission editor installed marker allow capture

[wild perch]

I think the answer would be a long the lines of having total control over the reward system for mission editors. I personally would like to see a system where the weapon/airframe used would determine the points received. A higher multiplier for cheaper airframes/weapons.

[raw plaza]

These are some good points that need addressing.
-About RTB being boring:
I think it should be visible in some way how much kill money an enemy pilot has on them.
This would almost be like a bounty on their head. The pilots with highest "Bounties" should be visible on the map.
You get part of an enemies bounty when you kill them, and you get the full amount if you capture the pilot. Or part of it If you shot down their plane and a friendly captured their pilot.
This dare I say extraction shooter like game mechanic could bring more focus on surviving the way back. You might even need to save some of your missiles for the way back if you want to cash in after a good run.
Not to mention this would help coordinate teams to focus their attacks on higher skilled enemies with high kill counts, and therefore make struggling players less desirable targets.
-About it being too long of a time investment with slow movers:
Previously wrote that free low tier planes should be at increased availability. While mediums should be decreased and almost none for the high level ones. Another required feature that would be relevant is that you get your kill money if your pilot is saved by a friendly unit.
This two features would mean that if you eject above a friendly convoy you get your kill money but you lost your plane. With low tier planes (most of the slow movers) this is not an issue because you can request a new one. But you should not be able to get a replacement for an Ifrit for free so it's still worth it to return to base.
Now I don't like the idea of chicanes ejecting above friendly convoys. Still better than ejecting wherever.
I propose that landing slow movers next to HLT trucks should count as a successful RTB. These trucks should be marked on the hud of slow movers as landing options.
-Dark Reach should get a buff. It should have way more small ordnance and whatnot. Won't go into that because that's a different suggestion page.

[jade sand]

Returning to base earns points which can increase your rank as well as money, but beyond a certain point those things no longer matter. What if we just had more stuff to buy/rank up for?

[raw plaza]

Yes, If we could spend money on actually good base defences without the tediousness of spawning it in helicopters, that would also help.

[jade sand]

Donating to buy vehicle companies is a step in the right direction at least, but it's hard to see their impact on the fight without waiting an hour.

[lavish bobcat]

Where did you get the 30+ min number from?

[haughty drift]

Personal experience

15-20 minutes to clear a sufficient area close enough to the frontline, another 5-15 to deliver the goods.

[lavish bobcat]

Seems like the kind of process that could be significantly sped up by more teamwork. And flying instead of driving to your destination.

[haughty drift]

Which is why I explicitly mentioned singleplayer in my first message

[lavish bobcat]

Better AI you could order around would definitely help with that. Not really a topic for this thread though.

[onyx dragon]

Im really donth think adding bounty system is good idea. This making focus in people who have high score, too much focus from players and it could break atmosphere and battle plan because many people forget about their main targets and will try kill bounty to get cool reward.
I like your propose about ability when you sortie and stop close to munitions truck you will can successfully eject and dont lose aircraft, this have some sense

[onyx dragon]

Yep. Need just make default kill reward making smaller and successful sortie bonus making high(usually pretty good 150%), in this casse you lack money if you die for new aircraft, but if you rtb, you enough money for new aircraft (i mean compass)

[vocal raptor]

So you could balance this, and give late joiners the average rank/more money at the start, so they wouldnt be stuck at compass only

[onyx dragon]

BTW added in mission editor this functional, and this really work

[merry elk]

I think it depends on how you RTB.
Most of my sorties are below radar, which with the latest update just got harder. So, I need to play attention as I'm only just above the deck.
I also use the time, when I'm able to fly a little higher, to start planning my next sortie. Look at the map, see what others are up to, pick a target(s) that will give the team a strategic advantage, plan a route in & out.
If I know what's coming next I can keep an eye on the map to call out inbound missile waves (Tusks, Ashm, Piledriver ect) and encourage others with A/A load out to intercept, esp if things are not going to plan.
Oh hey look, it's about time to actually land, now I need to not hit all the players taking off.

It's not an adrenaline fuelled turn and bun (mostly) but I am able to use the time to benefit the game. I've pre planned so my next sort is more likely to succeed & because I've planned I can spend less time on the ground and more time on the offensive.

Just how I like to play.

[raw plaza]

Better options for communication would help balance the players focus between money making and strategic targets.

[shrewd sandal]

My pet peeve is killing the same player multiple times on my way to the same base. Why do I gotta face the same guy who is now fully rearmed

[pulsar cargo]

what if you could buy ground units with the extra money for the sake of having something to waste money on

[tacit vigil]

this is already a thing 😭

[pulsar cargo]

as far as i know it's just a big donate button, not specific tbh.

[raw plaza]

You can already buy convoys, but they are often not that effective. Sometimes just extra money pinatas for the enemy.
If we could buy something effective like stratolances for example that would be better.
It would help the economy for sure, but it's kind of different suggestion topic.

[stiff rune]

this is certified chicane gameplay

[boreal shadow]

Purchasing replacement stratolances, or needing a cash reserve to repair destroyed buildings would be a good use for a team's extra cash.

[raw plaza]

80 upvotes, Let’s go!

[onyx dragon]

Yep. You sure. If we will can buy air defense units for pretty big money 50-100mil(yes i know part of them more cheap, but this enough price to not spam), this will significantly help in battles and make gameplay more different and realistic. Especially if we could buy stratolance (at least for 80-130 mil per one) this give us ability to install it anywhere by tarantula, of course we will nes delivery there radar truck and supplies, what waste our time, but it will be still very good option

[lavish bobcat]

Okay, so heres some extra things Ive been thinking about within the limited airframes context:

If we ever get local inventories for each airbase there should be some sort of platform you can use and request containers filled with things. Basically, in the loadout menu, you open a window and get two inventories. Air base inventory on the left and container inventory on the right. You can move things from one thing to another and when you accept the request the container with whatever you put in spawns. Now, you can go grab it and move it to a different location. Example:

I'm in the aircraft loadout menu. I open the inventory transfer window. Move 5 Crickets and 5 nukes from the airfield's inventory to a cargo container. The container spawns on my airfield. I take off in Tara, I slingload the container and fly the 5 Cricks and 5 nukes to another base. Once there, I gently put it down, it gets consumed and now whatever was in the container gets added to that airfield.

Empty contaieners should probably automatically despawn, to avoid empty crap laying around and blocking the pick up zones.

[raw plaza]

That’s one way to integrate the container system.
If the AI does this job of re supplying the bases to have enough of the airframes, than I like it. Could mean that you only run out of specific airframes if you or your team over uses it, or if the AI supply units are disrupted by enemy attacks.

How about a simplified alternative?
The containers are universal and add “supply points” to the airport.
For buying planes you need to spend some of your money and some of the supply points of the base. Low tier planes require mostly supply points and only a small amount of money, while high tier planes cost more supply and way more money.

[lavish bobcat]

Id love the whole economy to be based around just one resource (warheads should be separate, though). Would simplify many things (like moving supplies instead of individual types of resources or assets), but the whole economy would have to be restructured in a major way, which I dont think is happening any time soon.

People want their ranks and their money, for some reason ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[raw plaza]

Because individual progress and limitations are good gameplay elements. Money and rank provides that.
If everything would be shared it would lead to conflict when random players take your teams best airframes to get shot down by the first sarh.

[cobalt flame]

I really like both of these as options for hosts to select

[onyx dragon]

Local inventories for each base... Hm.. never thinking about this... This have some sense much more for logistics gameplay, but... But yeah, still have enough sense for making returning to base meaningful. Pretty good motivation not spam and not waste airframes on front base because there is airframes very fast depleted. BTW making similar system for nukes delivering very useful!

For me main problem is - how balance it? Will be it not being too boring safety gameplay... And I sure need tests for it. And i sure this must be as game mode where you will can turn on and turn off this mechanic because this will like not for all people

If will be implement mechanics which will make RTB more meaningful should will be bots get little more survivable behaviour.

[onyx dragon]

I sure the best mechanics what making RTB more meaningful - make limitation to get requests new airframe by time 120-250 sec. Yes this was already implemented, but this was work not bad

[boreal shadow]

How would the limited airframes idea resist abuse?

Wasting airframes seems like it'd be the hot new griefing meta if they crack down on team killing.

[raw plaza]

Yea. Another reason why players should individually earn the money for the planes and weapons.

[lavish bobcat]

You can already do way worse things if you want to be a griefer. I dont think limiting airframes would be that bad, as you have to spend much more time taking off and bailing out compared to dropping a single nuke onto your own airfield. The team could vote kick the griefer way before they run out of airframes. You dont have the same reaction time with a friendly nuke rolling around by your revetment.

[vague hawk]

My take on this is that you have to wait for some time for the aircraft to be repaired/fixed/fueled.
Overall the Idea makes you unable to spam your plane, and also, what I like about it: it makes more sense in having a few aircraft bought. So you either have to wait at the base If you don't have enough money, or you just buy a second plane, and when you're back, it's already ready go go into battle.
You can even buy for example a vortex with A2A loadout at the main base for emergency interceptions.

You could maybe even expand on this idea further and have airbases have debuffs for armaments variety and reload speed if munition bunker is destroyed.

[raw plaza]

That would only punish the players that are financially struggling or can’t afford a second plane.

[vague hawk]

Yeah, but keep in mind that if you want to make RTB more meaningful it will, in one way or another, be harder for players who are low on money. If you're low on money, it means you've lost your airframe and was punished for that.

I get what you're saying, but nonetheless this is still a way.

[shrewd sandal]

Fundamentally a respawn delay accomplishes the main problem. RTB can be boring compared to suicide by opponent and getting a new airframe.

We already have economical measures for saving airframes, problem is good players end up rich and it's worth their time to suicide.