Changes to lynchpins

[tacit zephyr]

I think reverting the lynchpins back to optical would better if you just made them have less range, with less maneuverability so you cant fire behind mountains, and less damage. And remove them from compass.

You still have 42 rockets which seems great if you dont care about time in danger zone, where you will die to an airplane or sarh waiting for each tracked target to be destroyed while in multiplayer. AGMs were buffed with terrain avoidance, which should have made them special compared to lynchpins, even without nerfs. For apcs and tracked vehicles, they could have been made more resistant to them. I see the main complaint was that killing ships and AA was too easy. Is there someone that doesnt know launching 4 agm68s at any distance is more lethal and safe than using lynchpins? Removing lynchpin loadout from compass would do half the work in this area. They are of zero value against anything bigger than a shard, and the fun from seeing them hit all parts of the ship like artillery is never gonna be felt again, because they target the belt of ships. They wont even center on the command bridge. The only weapons that can target ship defences now are ones that will cripple the ship anyway. If im in a chicane within 7km of your ship I deserve to cripple it if i can do it easier in a compass already. And why should i not get rewarded for flying my chicane stealthy all the way to an enemy base? Surprise assaults in a chicane are the worst of surprise attackers now, because a player can die, respawn, then kill you with guided munitions before you can use half of your loadout. Thats the reward for getting within 7km of enemy base with a heli. Even if you dont care about balance, using dozens of rockets to saturate areas was cool and fun.

TLDR; any nerf EXCEPT it being laser guided would have been more fun

[indigo swallow]

The laser guidance is amazing
Taking them as insurance against SAMs and SPAAGs is smart, and now the guidance is actually better so they can kill taras and chicanes quite handily, and are basically a free kill against APCs and cars

Now rockets are more of a tool in the box, not the holy grail of "select 20 targets and delete them all"
Taking 48s or ATPs when you have magic IR guided Lynchpins or Kingpins is (or more accurately, used to be) a stupid decision, making rockets more limited is smart and keeps other weapons useful

[tacit zephyr]

im not saying to just revert them, but to revert and apply different nerfs. both 48s and atps have more range and damage. And now 48s can use terrain avoidance. So you disagree that less damage and range would be better? i personally dont like how good rockets are at killing tara and chicanes now as opposed to before. Both of them are way slower than jets in the first place.

[indigo swallow]

ATPs actually have less range than the Kingpin, and are only a little better at killing MBTs, and lose the kind of overwhelming numbers that maike both forms of rocket very very potent against lightly armored ground targets, including SAMs and SPAAGs
Terran avoidance is definitely a pro of the AGM 48 (which iirc the ATP doesnt share), however the 48 is carried in fewer numbers and is not able to 2 shot MBTs, and is easier to intercept
The tradeoff of rockets is now that they require a constant lock and LOS

[tacit zephyr]

**So you disagree that less damage and range would be better?**im ok with kingpins being laser, im just talking about lynchpins. SPAAGs can destroy a dozen rockets with a burst. i dont think you can 2 hit or even 5 hit tanks with lynchpins sometimes. If apcs needed more than one rocket to the front would be much better.

[indigo swallow]

I disagree that nerfind the range and damage of the rockets is a good idea

i think theyre awesome as is and still leave me room for ATPs and 48s
Idk why the SPAAG shooting down your rockets is a problem, just fire like 15 at a time and keep it locked, theres never more than 2 spaags in an area (usually)

[tacit zephyr]

playing multiplayer now, i just dont see the value of chicanes in mid-lategame. its not fun to take all this time in ignus for doing something the compass can do in a fraction of the time. i have yet to notice a chicane player actually using all rockets before i kill them

[indigo swallow]

delivering 24 kingpins to the enemy base is very strong, my late game chicane runs have rewarded my patience very well

[tacit zephyr]

is it? 24 kingpins vs 24 tuskos in a fraction of the time, in late game where people have money.

[indigo swallow]

Tuskos are a lot more expensive arent they? plus i just dont use the darkreach lol i find it boring

24 tuskos being better than 24 Kingpins is completely understandable

[tacit zephyr]

yes, it was a bad comparison. do you play multiplayer pvp? its late game rn in a dedicated server, not a single cricket, chicane or tara will survive a trip to the mainland. As soon as you methodically start destroying things, your gonna die. I just wish chicane was still as fun and powerful

[indigo swallow]

its super strong in the early to mid game rn, i dont play a lot of multiplayer although if we had round timers and point totals id play more because id waste less time searching for a fresh game

Ignus definitely favors fixed wing jets

[tacit zephyr]

i would settle for just them adding random targeting again or adding manual targeting

[bold talon]

I think about this. But still decided they much better in current variant.

No lynchpins spam which can easily destroy AA. Longer time of life in battlefield. CAS cricket and helicopter looks very good and useful. More accurate shoots. This require some skill from player. Make many sense to make squadron attacks and teamplay.

I think maybe have little sense make old system for kingpins because they are not so big

[turbid yew]

Ignus is a map where COIN aircraft and attack helicopters have somewhat limited utility. I wouldn’t expect a chicane to be super relevant mid/late game because of this.

Lynchpins were massively overperforming and this new iteration makes them more focused and interesting to use while keeping them relevant and viable. It’s a good change, I think you may need to adapt your play style and recognize that a lot of early game aircraft simply lose relevancy as the game progresses.

[tacit zephyr]

For ignus, you should be able to lift of from Feldspar and kill vehicles coming at 20km away. Impossible now due to new radar floor and missiles. For escalation, helicopters should be valuable at most stages of the game, as long as it doesnt take 10 minutes to travel there, they should be useful. I recognize that compasses and revokers should lose relevancy, but an attack heli should not ever be able to be replaced by planes is the situations that real life heli excel at. Thats not fun or realistic. Right now this update: nerfs lynchpins, buffs agms, and heavily buffed radar missiles. you cant maintain sub-10meters from the ground in anything but flat terrain while traveling at a middling speed. You must both notch, use ecm, and be at around 5 meters now to dodge radar missiles. So where am i getting the time or space to even lase and destroy targets? I can lift off in a compass and launch 16 agm48s, and 2 agms 68s, for 10million less and a quarter of the time. 42 lynchpins dont matter if you cant use them before a close range scythe launch kills you, and you will die if you dont immediately notch and lose all altitude. The more I think about it, im less bothered by the lynchpins changes but rather the radar changes that dont allow for these new situations to exist especially in multiplayer

[turbid yew]

Fun fact: helicopters get absolutely trashed by air superiority fighters using advanced air to air missiles. That’s why countries focus on gaining air superiority before sending in attack helicopters for sustained operations.

If you’re expecting the Chicane to be survivable without proper air cover, I have a bridge I wanna sell you in Manhattan.

[tacit zephyr]

Another fact is jets are trashed by defensive missile systems. You are not notching or jamming missiles like you can in this game. In the ukraine war you have fighters that are unable to to be at high altitude except to launch glidebombs 75km away. Imagine suks launching bombs and missiles 20km away and just notching enemy defense...So obviously there's a little game design trade. Heli should be the best at ground offense, or why use them? It was pretty balanced before between fighters and non fighters.
Air superiority? It is very different in this kind of game, especially with datalink. I respawn and fly a compass to battle area in 3min and launch a dozen missiles even with enemies near. I have no reason to use heli because A) Fighters can easily dodge missiles, helis cant B) Laser guided kingpins on jets that are way more effective C) I can deploy munitions in a quarter of the time with a compass. I expect a chicane to be useful in multiplayer in some capacity. I have not seen any people so far ground attacking with chicanes and surviving long this update.
If you disagree with all of this, fine. Tell me how you use helis with lynchpins in dedicated servers.

Maybe i should make a video spectating heli players to show what i mean

[turbid yew]

Ukraine is a bad example for peer to peer combat because both air forces are woefully undermanned and struggling to operate against a proliferation of air defenses. Jets aren’t “trashed by defensive missile systems” though- the Army ditched Stingers on the Apache because it was dead weight, any jet that wants to kill an Apache is going to do it from outside effective Stinger range.

Helis should not be the best at ground attack because… that’s not how helicopters work. They have advantages and disadvantages compared to other platforms and they should be utilized with those in mind. You use helicopters when you have a tactical situation where they are useful; you dont use helicopters when they arent useful. And in a peer v peer war in an archipelago you’re going to use attack helicopters significantly less than in COIN operations inland. You can easily double check this by reading about the historical and theoretical deployment of the Cobra, Apache, and Viper gunships and how tactics change in different threat environments (hint: securing air superiority before deploying helicopters is pretty standard across the board).

I think you need to adapt your playstyle accordingly.

To answer your weird fixation on lynchpins- they’re now fantastic weapons to kill SPAAG/SAM units with. Preselect targets on your map, close to laser range and pop up attack your targets. You can lase 4 and fire on all of em at once, put 2-3 lynches on them and it’s an easy SEAD run.

Expecting lynchpins (the cheaper, high volume low damage weapon) to outperform the expensive ATGM (the pricier, more advanced, purpose built A2G missile) is a mistake. I’m sorry, but your favorite playstyle got nerfed because it was, by all definitions, based on an overperforming weapon system that was also physically unrealistic.

[tacit zephyr]

Its not just proliferation, these systems are just that effective. I mean defensive missile systems like patriots and s-400, not handheld munitions. Stratos and rams have a fraction of the lethality. In game I can go in a circle dodging several different radar sites at 25km, without any danger. That is impossible today. Its entirely comparable in game except that jets have no real danger at 25km because its gameified. If i play escalation by myself, dont i have dozens of AA against me? It doesnt make it any harder.

Do you play multiplayer? You keep making scenarios where theres no one around you somehow. They were fantastic weapon before too.

"Expecting lynchpins (the cheaper, high volume low damage weapon) to outperform the expensive ATGM (the pricier, more advanced, purpose built A2G missile) is a mistake." never said that. They were buffed so they are really good, i have no complaint. I can SEAD easily with EVERY jet now. What purpose does heli serve? I keep it fixated to lynchpins on heli because i already made the topic about it.

[turbid yew]

There isn’t effective SEAD occurring in the Ukrainian conflict, it’s not the best example for how a modern peer v peer war would play out. Israel absolutely dogged on Iranian SAM and early warning networks with their strikes last year; the S400 is highly overrated. Harris’s adage still holds true, the bomber continues to get through.

I play plenty of PVP. This is a very weird hill to die on- lynchpins were 100% overperforming, each pod essentially acting like 7 mini AGM-48s instead of unguided rockets fitted with a cheap laser warhead like APKWS IRL

SEAD is a mission, not an airframe. You’re supposed to be able to SEAD in pretty much everything, but some platforms have advantages over others that allow for different strategies, tactics, and effectiveness.

I think maybe a little relevant media is worth watching

https://youtu.be/qnoKpXvj41A

Perun does a good job explaining how attack helicopters are adapting to the evolving threat environment and are retaining their utility even in the face of systems that force them out of their originally envisioned role.

[tacit zephyr]

Isreal the country that regularly fights several countries at once and wins? Yeah that's not surprising. Iran is no where near pear with them or pretty much anyone else now. Every battle in NO is peer to peer. You can downplay s400 but you cant ignore that stratos and rams are not at all comparable to patriots and s400, when they should.

I dont see a place anymore to use Chicane, especially considering the travel time. Listen, I understand how powerful they were. Yes they were super buffed compared. That doesnt mean ifrit and revoker were weak and didnt already kick ass But now its a weapon nerf, along with the radar floor changes and look down shoot down. It shouldnt have been both. Maybe if the ecm wasnt weak.

I dont think you should link stuff thats almost irrelvant in game, but i will watch it still. Theres no troops with manpads in game, and theres no data link in real life or infinite jets.

I dont see why rockets must be primitive, or any weapon, except out of balance. If we have semi auto railguns, we definitly have optical mini rockets.

One very last thing, chicanes are dumpstered by rockets now. Before you could do a little jiggle to avoid them, so people would barrage them, but good luck now. Now this has become a chicane suggestion lol.

[turbid yew]

Iran has one of the most extensive SAM networks in the world; dismissing them as a peer threat for Israel is foolish at best. Especially when Russia sends Iran (and Syria) their top-of-the-line systems to get combat experience against western aircraft.

There is 100% a place for the Chicane. It’s just not in an airspace where enemy fighters have the freedom to engage you. You need to coordinate with teammates or stick to areas friendly SAMs can cover you or accept the risks and sortie with a brass pair and a skill set that allows you to fight through enemy air long enough to get missiles on target. I can personally claim the last strategy is still very effective even in high intensity PVP servers like Talon 1 where teams are often 20v20 or more.

There 100% is data link IRL and has been for over 30 years now lmao

The tech in Nuclear Option is almost entirely based off of what’s airborne now with much of it being based off designs and weapons introduced 10, 20, or even 30 years ago.

The mistake you’re making is assuming the Chicane somehow deserves to operate with impunity if it flies low enough. That’s fundamentally not how air combat works. Hasn’t ever worked that way either, and the devs clearly don’t want NO to compromise on that.

Lynchpins aren’t primitive- APKWS is a relatively recent advancement and is pretty useful. You’ve just been spoiled by them acting like 7 miniature AGM-114K Hellfires, which is what the AGM-48 is supposed to be.

This game is supposed to operate with internally consistent realistic physics, and semi-realistic air combat. Lynchpins were over performing balance-wise and also unrealistically modeled, the recent change brings them in line with their role in balance and their actual realistic performance IRL.

If anything, the Chicane is dramatically overperforming by being able to lase 4 targets at once. That’s pretty Sci-fi-y.

[tacit zephyr]

Perhaps, but the conflict wasnt really getting started. There was no real war. But i dont want to devolve into talking about countries specifically.

How is that not basically replaced by compass? Seriously what is the answer? Why do that when you can now do it for less risk, with cheaper aircraft, faster? Ok so you want helis to be more realistic, ok. Add patriot and s400 attributes and qualities to strato lances and rams. You would be happy with that right.

There is not datalink like in game, which you should have infered. When i said railgun, do you seriously think im referring to the modern one that destroys itself, or the one ingame that shoots 125 shots in a row without issue?

Sure except for super effective jammers in fighters and trainers, and lasers. Im cool with it. So adding irl capabilites to stratos and rams should be acceptable in turn.

They were alright with it until recently. I dont expect impunity, I expect reasonable way to to defend myself in a video game. "Hasn’t ever worked that way either"...what? you mean 4 days ago it was the same? Radar floor and clutter nerf changes a whole lot. It was fun for everyone plenty, just needed some tweaks.

You want semi realistic jet battles? Ok, and I want semi realistic heli capabilities. Cant there be a middles to it? Leave the rockets to be advanced or make it possible to evade scythes above 5m. Ill take either. It feels like im playing Warthunder for helis, and world of planes for jets.

also i think this is a bit funny just saying "There isn’t effective SEAD occurring in the Ukrainian conflict, it’s not the best example for how a modern peer v peer war would play out. " Really, the most modern war to date isnt near peer-to-peer, and bad to compare air and missile capabilites?

[turbid yew]

I’m not sure where the disconnect is but I don’t think there’s going to be any agreement here, it doesn’t seem like you’re able to accept certain things and honestly these walls of text are pretty hard to wade through. But you’re pretty off the mark about your perception of the Chicane my dude.

[tacit zephyr]

I feel like its uneven exchange then, because I feel like I addressed your points but you ignored the ones i have to keep repeating. Alright then

[turbid yew]

Your disconnect is assuming the lynchpins were realistic pre patch, which they most certainly weren’t. The devs also agreed on this and now they’re modeled better. Take it up with them then but clearly you’re not going to have a ton of support

[tacit zephyr]

And neither are stratos or rams, as evidenced by the most advanced war to date.

[turbid yew]

Which is something I’ve suggested be changed lol

Just because stratolances aren’t entirely accurate for balance reasons doesn’t mean lynchpins can avoid the nerf hammer

Apples and oranges my dude

[tacit zephyr]

Did you? Why disagree about them earlier then? In your opinion you believe helis and jets are properly balanced? I guess thats what matters.

its not apples and oranges when you are arguing something should be nerfed because of realism primarily.

[turbid yew]

Lynchpins were nerfed because they were unrealistic and unbalanced as I have said clearly before. SAMs are somewhat unrealistic to be balanced which is a subject of debate. That’s why it’s apples and oranges.

This recent patch has helped balance overall tremendously and the jet-Heli balance is in a pretty good place

Attack helicopters in NO are wayyy stronger than in other, more realistic flight games, for the record

Clearly SAM balance broaches the fun/not fun line for the Devs while lynchpins (like most aircraft weapons) are held to a more realistic standard in how they’re employed.

[indigo swallow]

Also saying ARH missiles are too hard to dodge rn is kinda crazy, ive been shaking them off way more consistently with the kinematic nerfs

The Chicane might need a buff in that regard though, a scythe launch is basically guaranteed death if you dont intercept it or break los, she REALLY doesnt like to turn to those notch vectors, and sometimes even when notched they keep going and hit you anyways lol

Also is it just me or does notching only work when you're velocity vector is near the line, not your actual physical direction

Might have to do with the way notching works but i dont remember exactly how so I dont wanna say

[stiff wren]

Notching is based on the velocity vector, yeah.

[tacit zephyr]

I didnt say that, its only harder for heli. Well i guess for jets hiding in clutter but thats fine with me. Yeah, i used the ecm pods while notching with low rcs. They only seem to miss a quarter of the time. You have to be real low and slow.

[tacit zephyr]

Yeah, im ok with lynchpins I guess. The radar floor being reduced enough that you are dead on scimitar launch broached the “not fun” for me. There is no escaping any radar missile on uneven terrain(while moving at least). I would bet money they will improve clutter and radar floor, or make other changes once the new heli is introduced. Itll be 15mins in game and then no one will be able to utilize it.

[turbid yew]

You have to notch + jam, or use terrain to interrupt the missiles guidance. Or use a S1 to intercept the Scythe. It’s not supposed to be easy, but it is doable.

[tacit zephyr]

That would be ok. S1 trick was great before when the missile alarmed you instantly. Now, Its way harder to do with scythe, and impossible for a far launched scimitar. But the bar notch thing will be green and it’ll still hit directly, while notching and jamming. Maybe bug? Will design a mission to test it. And i can not overstate how powerful laser guided is against helis too. Its basically like 5 different nerfs in one update.