An honest critique of VRS's inclusion in the game

[left stag]

VRS would be fine if there was an actual in-game tutorial explaining how to avoid it
The Chicane is so different from other aircraft that it should have it's own tutorial mission, but it doesn't, leaving most new players unable to use it at all.

[vocal knot]

I'd still argue it should be paired with its IRL relatives if it was to be in the game.

[left stag]

Yes.

[vocal knot]

Especially ground effect, which could help new players significantly

[empty stream]

Yes but VRS is super easy to recover from, just move

[left stag]

not obvious to a new player who hasn't played flight sims before

[vocal knot]

This is true but entirely irrelevant to my points I brought up. Difficulty is not equivalent to a well-implemented mechanic

[proven geyser]

Ngl, I never played any games with helis and VRS was a bit confusing for me at first, but once I learned how to deal with it it's no longer an issue. I agree that the game needs to explains this somehow.

[left stag]

especially since, again, VRS is given NO introduction in-game. Neither is collective, which newbies may assume is the same as thrust. It is not, but this is not made obvious.

[empty stream]

Yeah a “VRS, INCREASE AIRSPEED” warning callout would be nice

[vocal knot]

This highlights my issue with it: It only affects new players negatively. Now that you've learned to avoid it, it offers no gameplay balance or benefits.

[proven geyser]

Well, that's not entirely true imo. It's a challenge you have to deal with, which is desirable in a game like this. Also, by having to move you change your radar visibility. There used to be an issue with Tarantula where people would hover and fire the howitzer continuously while being invisible to radar missiles because of the lack of doppler shift (or however it works in this game). VRS forces people to move from time to time so they don't just spawn camp while being impervious to radar missiles.

[true hatch]

Tarantula can suffer VRS? that's news to me

[proven geyser]

It cant, but it can become invisible by hovering still. Which isnt an issue since its offensive capabilities are minimal (at least without a gun which overheats quickly without airflow).

[vocal knot]

I'm not sure radar visibility matters much given the SAH is already suceptible to literally every other type of weapon in the game while hovering. And radar missiles don't even work if you're in a regime where VRS is dangerous, so VRS hurts worst when the whole radar missile threat doesn't apply (<20m)

[proven geyser]

I could be wrong about this but Im pretty sure VRS doesnt happen at ground level

[vocal knot]

At around 5m it doesn't, yeah

[proven geyser]

By ground level I meant around 20m but Im testing it rn and I cant seem to trigger VRS below about 100m.

[vocal knot]

Hover, then set collective to 0% for a bit?
I've had it hit at lower than 20 before while landing

[dusky stirrup]

Can definitely hit VRS below 100m. I think VRS is fine. I think pop-tarting is an okay strat, and I don't think that VRS makes it too hard.

There's very few pieces of cover where side strafing to exit VRS would expose you and even then you can simply strafe backwards instead. Pop-tarting is really only necessary if no one else is scouting your targets for you since you can lob AGMs and AGRs very easily over cover. Perhaps it was thought during development that pop-tarting would be too powerful without some sort of challenge like VRS but I don't personally believe that is the case.

What I will say is that if VRS was removed, flying the Chicane would become easier, but also a little boring to just be bobbing up and down. I might be biased though. Most of my playtime in the game is in a Chicane and I'm just used to it now.

I do 100% agree that the Chicane needs a separate tutorial, even if VRS is removed.

[vocal knot]

Thanks for the nuanced reply! I appreciate it.
That is a good point that boring strategies should not be encouraged from a game design standpoint. I've also never heard the term "Pop-tarting" before

[nimble pollen]

Wait, can/should the Tarantula VRS ? I never thought about that...

[vocal knot]

It does not. Mitch says it shouldn't because the rotor diameter to weight ratio is too high. We've lost V-22s to vrs irl before, but there isn't really anything to compare the tarantula to in its weight class.

[dusky stirrup]

more of a mechwarrior term tbh but I don't know any other way to describe it lol 😂

[simple swan]

https://youtu.be/HjeRSDsy-nE?si=NKoPQIFC0LALvul3

We should make a semi-official tutorial playlist for NO, because I guess people can’t Google things anymore.

[left stag]

Or there could be a Chicane tutorial explaining how to fly it and what VRS is.

[simple swan]

I’m down for more tutorials. But man that video saved me so much time when I first found it.

[vocal knot]

People can google things, that's fine. My original point of this post is how does that (new players having to learn realistic quirks) benefit the game or fit in to the rest of the (quite simplified) physics.

[simple swan]

Because the physics aren’t that simple? Because VRS is an important aspect of managing a helicopter in multiple regimes of flight? Because it raises the skill floor, requiring players to get gud?

[vocal knot]

So we want the skill floor raised? You're the first player I've heard that said this.

[simple swan]

To an acceptable, yes, and VRS is a mechanic at that level. Same as stalling of lifting surfaces, or supersonic flight characteristics, or blacking out from G forces, etc

[vocal knot]

And my other point of VRS being alone without the other realistic effects that helicopters deal with (ground effect, etc.). Was that a valid comparison?
(I genuinely want some thoughts and opinions here, not a fight.)

[simple swan]

I thought ground effect was modeled. If it’s not, it 100% should be, along with how difficult it is to mask the radar signature of helicopter blades from above.

[grizzled gazelle]

it is modeled

[simple swan]

That’s what I thought. OP is full of shiitake mushrooms.

[vocal knot]

That's quite harsh, man. I wanted a discussion on what people wanted from the different levels of simulation, not this mess

[simple swan]

Sorry, I was trying to aim for more funny-than-insulting, probably didn’t land the way I wanted.

[dusky stirrup]

The issue with VRS as a skill gate is that it's 10% skill 90% knowledge. I am of the opinion that NO's low skill floor and high skill ceiling is one of it's best traits from a design perspective, and a tutorial really should be in the game to facilitate that.

[simple swan]

Tutorial would be the best way to fix this. Specifically a VRS tutorial, to make it easier for players to reboot and practice, instead of burying it halfway through a larger helicopter tutorial

[left stag]

A VRS tutorial seems best, esp since more helicopters vulnerable to it may be added eventually, like that PALA one.

[tulip verge]

Pretty sure ETL is modeled too. So we have all 3 of the things modeled OP said that we only have 1/3 of. I think the core issue is that the general public expects helicopters to be just as easy to fly as fixed wing, when that is absolutely not the case. A tutorial will fix the issue of people not wanting to google the word VRS.

Just another point to think about: From what I understand VRS is majorly overblown in most sims. Apparently it comes on in DCS much more rapidly and is significantly harder to recover from than IRL. SMEs in the ED discord have said multiple times that they almost never think about it IRL.

I'm not sure what the decent rate is that VRS happens in this game, but IMO bump it up to like 1000-1500fpm before it sets in. Could help new players as well.

Or they just get to learn the consequences of settling with power.

[vocal knot]

If etl and ground effect are there then I'm going crazy. I'm probably wrong, ngl

[grizzled gazelle]

try hovering just above a large factory, then move over the edge

or carrier

you will fall, as ground effect is the thing keeping you up

[vocal knot]

I'll try that when I get home. My original method of testing was decending at 1m/s with a bit of forward airspeed. Not touching the collective I let the heli decend until it hit the water. I remember not seeing any change in decent rate with that test, but it may have been flawed in some other way.

[tulip verge]

You might be getting let down by your unit measurements here. 1/ms can be up to 196 fpm. Could be that you're descending fast enough to not notice the difference.

[vocal knot]

It was the minimum accuracy for the vertical speed readout on the hud, I probably should have used the altimeter instead and recorded that

[tulip verge]

You can swap to imperial in game, if that makes it easier.

[vocal knot]

Noted!

[wet skiff]

Honestly, its funny I can teach people how to play the BIG FAT VTOL easier than the "Simple" Attack Helo

[left stag]

well yeah cuz the BIG FAT VTOL actually has a throttle and auto-vectoring
Unlike the Chicane (WHAT THE HELL IS A "COLLECTIVE" normal engine noises)