Super/ Hypersonic Anti-Ship Missile

[sharp crest]

My idea for a supersonic anti-ship missile. This missile is massive (almost 10m) so it would require a large launch platform. The Ifrit would likely be able to carry one externally (losing use of it's internal bays) and the Darkreach would be able to carry multiple. This would be a very advanced missile that would excel at taking out destroyers, carriers, and other large surface threats. See potential specs below:

“AShM-900 Fenrir”
Top Speed: Mach 2 (sea level), Mach 2.9 (at 15,000m)
Range: 300-600 km (ground vs air-launched)
Warhead: 500kg high-explosive warhead (nuclear capable)
Guidance: Inertial, GPS, and active radar homing
Flight Altitude: 15,000 meters (cruise), 10–18 meters (sea-skimming)
Engine: Solid-fuel booster + liquid-fuel ramjet
Dimensions: 9.00 m length, 0.75 m diameter, 1.75 m wingspan (unfolded)
Launch Weight: 3000 kg
Launch Platforms: Air / Surface launched
Manoeuvrability: Evasive high-G turns, sea-skimming terminal phase
Countermeasures: Limited IR flares

[sharp crest]

With the coming destroyer, we are going to need strong weapons to face more and more formidable fleets, meet my solution 🙂

[cursive olive]

this would be amazing

[visual thistle]

It would be cool if a missile cruiser or battlecruiser got those soviet style canted missile tubes with these

[gritty osprey]

That thing would cost more than a Compass.

[fallen sphinx]

So, you want a Shipwreck (P-700 Granit)? Actually no it is closer to Sunburn (P-270 Moskit)

[sharp crest]

Yes, specs wise, it's closest to a KH-41

[sharp crest]

(fixed typo)

[sturdy jacinth]

I Like this except it should be called The Trident :3

[sharp crest]

I like that too 🙂

[sturdy jacinth]

fitting the theme of something you'd poke a fish with

[sharp crest]

I'm sure the nuclear tipped version could be an anti-sub weapon

[sturdy jacinth]

is it small enough to be carrier internally?

[fallen sphinx]

Pretty sure only Darkreach can carry it

[sharp crest]

In a Darkreach I believe so, and Ifrit could carry ONE externally under the fuselage (hypothetically)

[sturdy jacinth]

Is it roughly the size of an ARAD?

[sharp crest]

More like the size of a demobomb

[sturdy jacinth]

bruh so its bigger than a cruise missile

[sharp crest]

Much bigger, nearly 10m long, similar idea to this

[sturdy jacinth]

TIL, the wings fold on the Su-33

[sharp crest]

Basically it would be very expensive, extremely fast, have countermeasures, but be limited to large launch platforms

[sturdy jacinth]

whats the unit cost and whats the biggest thing it can kill alone

[sharp crest]

I would assume a single conventional armed missile would cripple a carrier or very heavily damage it. The nuclear tipped version would obviously be more destructive. It would be similar to an Augur once you factor in kinetic energy and warhead size.

[sturdy jacinth]

if its so fast and deadly with as much countermeasures as it carries, what is gonna be a reliable counter?

[sharp crest]

It wouldn't be invulnerable, just more resistant to being interepted, I would assume the Darkreach would only be able to carry 2, maybe 4?

So it would be quality over quantity, likely 5-10M for the coventional version and 40M for the nuke.

[sturdy jacinth]

Can it be intercept by conventional Interceptor missiles?

[sharp crest]

Absolutely, but it does have limited flares and flys below 20m once it gets within 20km of the target. It could be intercepted similarly to cruise missiles, just harder and a lot faster, and again, you can likely only bring 4 of them, so it's not like you can launch 16 at a time.

[sturdy jacinth]

Lets say the carrier is alone and is fired upon by this weapon. would a compass be able to take off and lob an MMR-S3 and it to save the carrier?

[sharp crest]

Yeah, for sure, but it would deploy flares, so depending on how many threats are incoming for it, it could run out of flares, then it will be easy picking for an S3. CIWS would be able to intercept it but it would be difficult due to the speed and low alt.

[sturdy jacinth]

with its low RCS at what range would RAM-45's be able to intercept? and is the sea skimming and high altitude modes selectable, or the missile determines that on its own?

[sharp crest]

It's visulized on the diagram at the top, but basically it cruises at very high alt (15km) and then when it gets within 25-20km of a target it drops rapidly and skims the surface, so theoretically a RAM would not be able to detect it as it would come in under the radar floor, if there was a RAM between it and the target, it could still engage it while it was in its launch, cruise, or descent phase.

(Fixed a typo)

[hallow panther]

Hold up i actually like the idea of a single big AShM for slaying ddgs

[sharp crest]

Yeah, I nicknamed it "Ragnarok" because if it hits you it's game over

[hallow panther]

And is quite vulnerable to interception still in the midcourse

[sterile mauve]

Will it be like a LRASM and avoid detection zones

[sharp crest]

I believe an LRASM style AShM is in development, which will behave more similar to the current cruise missiles. This thing is intended for speed and maximum damage, so rather than avoid it will speed through and deploy countermeasures if needed.

[sterile mauve]

Give the lockheed martin LRASM vid a watch for what I mean, its cool

[vernal pendant]

Do you know how good destroy ARADs ships??

[sterile mauve]

Decently if used from the front of a shard and if you jam it while the missile is in flight

Or get unlucky like me and have the ARADs get distracted by another radar station 20nm away

[vernal pendant]

Wow. Unluck. But yes, sometimes need use all ARADs from medusa to successfully destroy carrier. Sometimes and for Shard it needed to(if several shards so close to each other)

[sterile mauve]

If the shards are closer together its even better so jamming is more effective

[merry cape]

This missile doesn't really scream "low RCS" hehehe

[fallen sphinx]

Only Shards because they have zero non-radar missile systems. Hyperion is on another level of defence, and new DDG will be about the same

[sturdy jacinth]

yeah thats what i thought too lol, im seeing a lot of bevels and wings

[digital wolf]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-gif-7523306793289960933

what about medusa

[merry cape]

One on each inner wing pylon would be pretty cool...

[digital wolf]

Put one on the radome mount lol

[sharp crest]

Made some small changes to the specs based on modern AShMs:

[sharp crest]

Good point, I updated it lol

[visual thistle]

We need a kirov clone that loads a whole bunch of these it would be so cool. and yes I am repeating myself.

I really want this in the game

[sharp crest]

I think it would also be a little more damage resistant to ciws (to account for its kinetic energy that would still cause damage regardless of the warhead being neutralized).

[merry cape]

Would this missile be able to perform standard air-to-ground as well? Anti-ship missiles are generally less focused on a gigantic explosive payload than they are speed and being able to pinpoint-target specific weakpoints of a ship, so this leads me to think that this missile would be precise enough to land hits on ground target as well. I'm sure it could lend a further standoff distance, but I'm assuming these will be fairly expensive to use, which would make them less sustainable as a common go-to ground-pounding missile.

[sharp crest]

I think so, since this is essentially a semi-ballistic missile, but it would be very expensive and not cost effective to use on anything but the most expensive and heavily defended units

[merry cape]

Right right, that's what I was getting at toward the end of my message. Thanks for clarifying!

[faint wyvern]

That's a pretty illustration. Mach 2 at sea level means that even if bullets from a destroyer meet it at the horizon (curvature of earth) then large fragments can still hit the ship. naval vessels would require equally advanced counters, such as massive autonomous torpedoes that can detonate below the missile as it approaches. (they would need to be in a circumfrance patrol zone around ships) (Of course this just adds to the complexity of wafrare with other subs potentially hunting these) While I think hypewrsonic low altiotude missiles have a place! (they are logical and have utility) they should not be put in without advanced counters also in place. (for balance, and well, logical realism!)

Like it though!

[visual thistle]

nah all you need is a stratolance battery aboard your ship
or a laser cannon

[sharp crest]

I imagine S3s would be able to take it out relatively easy, since it wouldn't carry a significant amount of countermeasures.

Part of the reason I am suggesting this is because the new destroyer is going to be an absolute no fly zone.

[zenith hamlet]

We technically already have Hypersonic missiles, but they're scythes and they can't technically do damage to ground targets.

Very rarely have they reached mach 5; they usually hit at mach 3 ish

[hallow panther]

Adding a very potent anti ship weapon for a high price to use against the destroyer along with jamming and other saturation weapons would be nice
The missile would basically turn into a timed intecept event where the enemy has to reach it before it reaches the destroyer
Keeping it at a high price also stops it from being used against every shard and hyperion around lol

[merry cape]

How are you getting your Scythes to mach 5+??? Lol

[zenith hamlet]

revoker or ifrit; go to high altitude and then use afterburners and launch em at a decreasing angle

[merry cape]

Hmm ill have to try it

[merry cape]

Can confirm from Mitch that the coming anti-ship missile can also be used against ground targets as well, and that they will be wing-pylon-mountable. Asked in the current livestream and he answered both questions in one, when I had asked about the wing mounting in general

[sharp crest]

New diagram 🙂

[runic hornet]

What planes do you think would be able to carry this. Due to its size, probably only the Darkreach.

[hallow panther]

Ngl fair. DR needs all it can get

[visual thistle]

Ifrit. Two under the wings.

[zenith hamlet]

True

Not sure about the new vtol aircraft but maybe tarantulas can carry one.

[vapid coral]

I like the design on the nose. Reminds me of a MiG-21s air intake.

[sturdy jacinth]

we need this for revoker so bad, it would make a go to anti ship weapon for fast deployment

[sharp crest]

I was thinking the Ifrit could carry one or two, the Darkreach could carry 4+ (I haven't actually taken a look at the bay size and how many would likely fit). Perhaps it could also be carried by other aircraft (revoker) in a centerline position like this IRL example?

Not sure if most pilons would be able to carry a 3000kg missile

[thick wyvern]

What about the Compass bay?

[runic hornet]

How large is the ARAD-116 and how much does each one weigh? The proposed missile may be too large to be supported by the multirole platform

[vapid coral]

I’d love to see the missile just slung underneath the compass. Watch it fail to go off the rail and just act as a rocket engine for the compass.

[zenith hamlet]

nah. Unless it's converted to another centerline pylon, there's no shot. I mean, only one AGM-68 can fit in that bay

[limpid tusk]

The Compass is too small for something.like that, you'd need an ASM more harpoon sized just to avoid overloading it

[vapid coral]

How heavy is the Compass in the first place? Cuz if you put that missile on even if you could I don’t think it would ever fly.

[merry cape]

I wonder how this would be implemented. Just since the Ifrit weapon bays are always there and the doors would be too weak to have anything hanging off of them. I love the thought of centerline carrying weapons, but this would kind of be the equivalent of centerline mounting anything on the F-22, which it just can't do because of those bay doors 😦

[hallow panther]

If the Ifrit had 2 of these itd already be super powerful

[barren jolt]

Maybe make it take up the same spot as an Auger

[zenith hamlet]

Yeah, augers ARE quite heavy

[merry cape]

If the aircraft can carry that weight reliably, sure. This missile seems a smidge obese in my opinion, but that's not to say I don't like the idea of an anti-ship missile of course.

It just seems that modern or upcoming and unreleased anti-ship missiles are smaller in both size and payload and are generally focused more on pinpointing specific weakpoints of enemy ships to cripple them, rather than relying on a very large size, very large payload and a hull puncturing kill.

Don't let me fool you though. I am certainly one to enjoy big explosions in Nuclear Option and would absolutely send this toward a Tarantula from 40 miles away. So I'll say I still like it and wouldn't be against it being in game. Just need to figure out how it's carried 🙂

[zenith hamlet]

By that logic, revoker is back on the menu. Also, how would you launch it at an oncoming 🕷️

[merry cape]

Too slow to avoid in a Tarantula

Flying boat

[zenith hamlet]

What about a cricket or chicane?

[barren jolt]

Perhaps one possible capability of a dedicated anti-ship missile could be a secondary booster that's only activated during terminal guidance - after launch and during most of the flight, it behaves like a mini-cruise missile, when the targeted ship is under 10km or so it ditches the sustainer jet engine and ignites a second stage booster that propels it to Mach something, a last dash to the target to minimize time available for gun-based defenses to react

[merry cape]

I just realized it said it has active radar homing and GPS homing, so depending on the missile's true tracking abilities, this could really be a threat in air to air fighting as well. Especially with its ability to flare off IR missiles. 🫣

Not to mention the 20kt nuclear warhead potential. Even if it misses an aircraft at low altitude, that blast radius from hitting the ground nearby will surely get them👁👁

[sharp crest]

Yeah, I'm not sure how Mitch would implement it. Perhaps a slightly smaller version that could be placed where Augers can be currently.

Or maybe it is just a really potent weapon that only the Darkreach gets.

[merry cape]

I could see that! I may have missed it, but the Darkreach bays are big enough for this missile right?

[sharp crest]

It's roughly the size of a demo bomb, so it would fit. I'm not sure about the outer bays but I think that if the Darkreach carried 4+ of these that would be fair

[digital wolf]

Does the tarantula get one then?

[merry cape]

Ok cool I couldn't remember the demo bomb dimensions off the top of my head. And I don't think the Tarantula is even getting a demo bomb

[digital wolf]

ye its not 😭

[merry cape]

Would be cool tho to airdrop with a chute. Would be hard to launch with local spaag and ifvs tho

[vapid coral]

Just drop a munitions truck like a daisy cutter

[sharp crest]

Updated some specs to bring it more in line with real-world equivalents.

[sharp crest]

Super/ Hypersonic Anti-Ship Missile

[sterile mauve]

Scramjet?

[sharp crest]

I don't believe scramjets work much slower than Mach 4/5. Whereas a ramjet can operate from high subsonic speeds to Mach 5+/-

[sterile mauve]

I mean a scramjet could make this go faster

[sharp crest]

I mean sure, but I think a ramjet is more suitable for a cruise missile, even if this kind of seems like a ballistic missile.

I think that it would slow down too much while sea skimming without thrust during the last 20km

[sterile mauve]

Also ARH uses doppler shift for tracking, which requires the target to be moving..

What if the ship is stationary?

[eager token]

it doesnt, radar can just contrast the ship to the rest of the ocean

[thick wyvern]

Doppler shift doesn't work like that, they can absolutely see things that are stationary, just uses things that are moving to differentiate from clutter

[frail brook]

You'd likely not even be looking at a sea skimmer with the kinds of speeds you're talking about. The tyranny of the breguet range equation means that the current ashm going about M1.2 is already kinda pushing the limits of practical sea skimming speeds on an air breathing missile

Now I'm all for a Kh-22 or Mako style quasi-ballistic missile to go with the sea skimmers, especially since mult vector attacks will always be more effective than going all in on sea skimmers

[sterile mauve]

What if it flies up to like 60-70k ft and splits up into MIRV-like warheads

[frail brook]

The problem with the MIRV-ing is that it makes the missile kinda huge and it'd make more sense to put multiple smaller missiles on an aircraft. A good QBM would probably be just big enough to fit 1/bay on an ifrit, or have to go on the inner wing pylons

[sharp crest]

Obviously I take a lot of these specs with a grain of salt, but we have quite a few examples in the real world of booster + ramjet missiles that have sea level speeds in excess of Mach 2. (BrahMos, Zircon, P-800, kh-31, kh-41, and some Chinese designs) Unless I'm missing something?

[frail brook]

I missed something, specifically that ramjets have a higher intake pressure limit. however an M2 sea skimmer is kinda redundant when the existing sea skimmers are already low observable and would arguably be easier to intercept without offering much in the way of new utility, as opposed to a ballistic/quasi-ballistic missile which would attack on a different vector

If you were gonna do a high supersonic sea skimmer, it'd be something you'd consider when faction specific weapons come in to play

[sharp crest]

Thanks for clarifying

The current thinking is about giving the Darkreach some bigger missiles 😉

Perhaps a ALBM would be an avenue to explore

[merry cape]

God I hope

[hearty osprey]

this sounds incredibly capable with really high reward, and in the context of the future naval-centric map, where carriers are going to be essential, this weapon might be too powerful to give to players. But a shore-launched system to guard home islands would be a neat feature. Fleets would have to have lots more escorts if this existed, though, which would be a pretty cool thing tbh

[hoary ice]

slap it with an arh at 30km away
it feels like a weapon that in the right hands against newer pilots will be absolutely brutal to deal with
but we already have 250kt nukes getting lawndarted into maris airport, idk if we want to add to that

inside a certain range it'll be very difficult to deal with if you don't have a medusa up
outside of that range it's a simple matter of sending enough arh to stop it early
i would like more fleet escorts too

IR missiles thinking about it might well be highly effective anyway if launched from front or back
at mach 2 she's gonna have a hell of a signature, and if she can't shut off her throttle to help dodge them she'll burn through a lot of flares against even one missile, so it depends how many she has there

[runic hornet]

Name it the AShM-900 Shipwreck

Or AShM-1900 Diorit

because it looks like a super scary missile that just so happens to be named after a very strong rock

[sharp crest]

Originally I had it coined as the AShM-900 Ragnarök

[digital wolf]

not at all related to the granit 😂

[runic hornet]

Tell me it's not a Granit

[sharp crest]

Its specs were partially based on the Kh-47, P-800, and Bramos. The Granit is just too large and heavy to be air transportable (at least imo with what is currently in game) 7000kg (Granit) vs 3000kg (this)

With a missile around 3000kg, it could potentially be attached to large fighter aircraft like the Ifrit

[vapid coral]

Considering that we can now shove an SM6 naval based missile on the underside of an FA-18 I can see this being carried by the Ifrit.

[dry marten]

resurrection!

[radiant hedge]

a upcoming what now

[glossy tiger]

We're getting it, no? Last I heard even the Smallfighter is gonna get air-launch AShM-300?

[dry marten]

not this concept exactly

[proven oak]

bump