Wire/Laser guided ATGMs

[fringe ravine]

this is just current agm but much worse, i'm not sure it would be used at all

i think most people would rather be able to shoot off 8+ agms at once with flexibility than having to do one at a time while being forced to stare at the target

weight isnt a concern on the chicane, anyways

[hard shale]

Maybe if it was an older gen,much cheaper option?

[fringe ravine]

its pretty rare you can afford an aircraft but not afford a conventional loadout for said aircraft, so i'm not sure that would give it any purpose or value in using over regular agms either

multi launch fire and forget is just too much better

[hard shale]

true

[wraith frigate]

Imo it should be autotrack, i.e you don't need to constantly guide it yourself, but target MUST be selected, and MUST be within line of sight.
If you select multiple targets, it will track the last one, and after it's destruction it will switch to the next one in queue. Multiple missiles in the air would be possible as well.
Compared to AGM-48 it would give more control over overkill, and I guess you can add top attack from other suggestion (https://discord.com/channels/909034158205059082/1263547685001105408)

[fringe ravine]

if you want "control over overkill", just, dont shoot more than you need yourself
you dont need a dangerously worse version of the agm for that

again this still lacks any real benefit

[cloud crow]

i still think the game would be better if you didnt just spam target lock then space and destroy an entire convoy

and maybe stuff doesnt need to have a use, its something fun and i feel like its different.
i also would rather have a max amount of target lock implemented into the game so you cant lock more than, fow example, 1 target with agm 68s

[cloud crow]

im sure other people would rather not, in all honesty i find chicane combat rather easy most of the time, spam r (my lock on button) and then space, convoy gone yay.

[cloud crow]

then again, too easy right though? maybe its a bad suggestion, im only suggesting an idea, but i feel like it fits

[fringe ravine]

that's how ground attack goes in any aircraft really

also easy doesn't equal bad

[fringe ravine]

god please no

also i think that might go against the forum rule of "dont suggest nerfs to current technology"

[hidden stratus]

i dont think wired ATGM will be a thing in 2070

[cloud crow]

not a nerf man they exist 😭
and i know easy doesnt equal bad its just, idk

either way i stick to my precious ifrit

[silk glade]

why not, its super reliable, its unjammable, and it cant be detected unless you detect the launch

[hidden stratus]

latest American launchers seem to be getting rid of Tows an heading towards javys and JAGM for helos

[silk glade]

I mean fair enough I guess, JAGM has like 4 different sensors lol

[hidden stratus]

i mean kinda of the future. i just kinda see the wire missile being phased

[silk glade]

Maybe we'll still use fiber optic wire guided missiles, cany really say yet, optical missiles might be jammable soon

[fringe ravine]

not to mention it just having no value or reason to be used over fire and forget

[spice swift]

TOW isnt even wire guided anymore. theyve been radio guided since TOW-2A

[wraith frigate]

Price

[fringe ravine]

costs dont really matter for conventional weapons, its not like agm48s are expensive

there would still be a massive nerf with no real balanced benefit

[silk glade]

i think thats wrong

[true temple]

apparently real, designated RF. didn't know that was a thing now

[silk glade]

it says its been developed, but every tow firing ive ever seen has shown wires

[wraith frigate]

Pls read again to what exactly I answered, because it was lore-related and not gameplay related

[fringe ravine]

the comment you replied to was about the game, not lore
hence i had to assume you were saying conventional weapon price matters in the game, which it doesn't

[true temple]

This is penny-wise pound-foolish thinking. Saving 60k on a missile by endangering a 30M aircraft isn't a good trade

[wraith frigate]

And from where "A2A" part comes exactly in this discussion?
Against ground it makes a lot of sense because IFV can shoot it not only against tanks, but also emplacements, choppers could as well

[true temple]

Exposing the platform increases risk to it. That's why F&F hellfire is a thing in the first place. Or Javelin, or Spike, or any number of other weapons. Also a SACLOS weapon has the issue that it means only one target engaged at a time, giving the other targets much more time to take cover. that means more weapons and sorties expended to get the same effect, which throws all those cost benefits in the bin as well.

[wraith frigate]

Second point is treated by multiple weapons in the air because both beam riding and semi-active laser homing allow it. As for first, sure, but "exposing" helicopter while it is 8 km away, which outranges any kind of of in-game SHORAD short of Boltstrike is such a big deal if you have EOTS that can see targets that far?

[fringe ravine]

this still isn't countering the point that a laser guided atgm would be a massive nerf with no real benefit, the only counterpoint has been cost, which doesn't actually matter 99% of the time

there would be no real reason to use a laser guided atgm over the current fire and forget ones, its just so much worse for no balanced benefit, or really any benefit for that matter

[true temple]

Okay they'res two different issues here. First is the IRL one. IRL making a beam rider or SALH system that can guide multiple weapons to multiple targets simultaneously will only make your launch platform more expensive. And there's lots of IRL SHORAD that can engage out to 8km or more, beyond point defense medium stuff equivalent to Boltstrike. And uncertainty is a big issue IRL, you can't know that there isn't an air defense system waiting nearby for you to pop up too long and get blasted.

Now some of these are still ingame problems. IRM platforms are common and don't have that much range, but they can go pretty far. And it's likely that there will be more AA platforms in the future- we already have MMR on Hyperion and it wouldn't be unexpected to see it on a land unit down the line. You can't 100% know where all the AA platforms are even now and that's likely to get worse as AI ground unit behavior is improved. In NO there's also much, much more threat from fast air. Spending the time to pay attention to maintaining contact is way more dangerous because you can get jumped by an aircraft at basically any time. And if you don't spend the time, good chance the target ducks behind a hill for a second and the missile is trashed.

[tropic jasper]

That's what the AGM-48 should be. We really need a high tech missile like the kinetic penetrator I proposed here https://discord.com/channels/909034158205059082/1269040253415723079 as the higher end option for the Chicane...

[hard shale]

I wouldn't call the agm-48 an old missile,its clearly a hellfire with a good guidiance package,but i do absolutely agree we should get some higher end weaponry for the chicane,maybe tactical nuclear missiles? (1.5kt yield or so?)

So far all nuclear weaponry is more on a strategic level,it'd be nice if we could have more on a tactical one.

[fringe ravine]

i believe this thread is about wire guided atgms and not nuclear missiles

[tropic jasper]

AGM-48 is most nearly analogous to the real-life AGM-179 JAGM, the Hellfire's fire-and-forget replacement. By 2070 that would be an old missile

[gloomy spade]

its as fire and forget as the hellfire given there is both semi-active LSS and active mmwave

unless you meant this as "they needed to replace the hellfire fire and forget missile and this is the replacement"

[tropic jasper]

Only the MMW Hellfires are fire-and-forget, so AGM-114L and its derivatives. The laser-guided variants are not.

[gloomy spade]

"as FnF as the hellfire since it has both semi-active laser and active mmwave [variants]"
forgot to say variants, I just thought it was weird to specify FnF since the Hellfire already has FnF variant(s)

[silk glade]

the games tech is supposed to be "worse" to keep it simple and like, actually possible to defeat

[gloomy spade]

issue: SACLOS ARE jammable
even if you use a wire, you are missing one important part:
finding the missile on your scope

[silk glade]

You can jam wire guided missiles?...

[gloomy spade]

do you know how SACLOS works?
launcher finds a flare attached to the back of the missile and sends corrective commands to keep it in the center of the scope. what if enemy fakes the flare? Sure you can have different coded IR flares, but that only works until the enemy IR lases directly into your scope blinding you

[silk glade]

Actually your right, you can jam it by blinding the launcher, radar or laser saclos is likely easier since it actually gives a signal to track, wire guided is a closed loop though, youd need to blind the launcher after finding it

[gloomy spade]

the overhead F35 DAS detecting the launch and making the Abrams laser jammer turn and jam it via datalink: (the year is 2050)
not using this as an actual argument its just an awesome thing to imagine since this is basically possible

[silk glade]

Idk if the Devs would want to give tanks laser jammers though, they seem to want to keep the layers thin and simple

[gloomy spade]

but overall: SACLOS will be gone as soon as DAS becomes "cheap" enough to put on ground vehicles,
know how else you can jam SACLOS? with a 120mm HE shell into the face of the guy steering it

[silk glade]

Yeah fair enough, ofc wire guided doesnt fit into the game anyways because its a huge nerf

[gloomy spade]

especcially since we are max 10 years away from tanks automatically responding to threats with unspeakable violence unless lawmakers make it impossible

[silk glade]

I mean technically they already do that lol

[gloomy spade]

nah i mean no human in the loop, see something launch a missile directly at you? do not ask the commander, run an IFF check and if it fails mess the enemy up preemptively

[silk glade]

I think a human will still pull the trigger, id think defenses would be more of a notification system or automatically traversing to bear on the target. Maybe the commanders CROWS would turn on it and they could fire almost immediately if they decide they should

[gloomy spade]

also could maybe show it on commander optics screen and if commander presses the death button, fires as soon as turret is rotated on it. probably less than 2 seconds response time. but overall yes SACLOS is dead

[spice swift]

tanks already have the option to automatically traverse to recieved laser pings from rangefinders

[gloomy spade]

tbf you do not HAVE to rangefind if you want to use a TOW, so if im going against an abrams no way im pressing the "die immediately" button

[wraith frigate]

It only works with specific types of SACLOS (with IR marker). You can't fake the laser beam for beam riding missiles. You can't exactly fake optical tracer either (like how AT-7 Saxhorn works), at least intentionally

[wraith frigate]

Good luck pulling second one for launcher 6-7 km away btw, considering both laser rangefinder decreased ranging accuracy at a distance AND gun dispersion

[gloomy spade]

Beamriding is not SACLOS, its LOSBR

[gloomy spade]

Valid, but even then if the driver is warned about the launch by DAS, he has at least 20 seconds of time to just smokescreen. But tbf thats not an issue with saclos and more all LOS requiring missiles.

[wraith frigate]

Specifically answering to "can guide multiple weapons at different targets".
You don't need that if targets are relatively close by angularly (I.e., convoy). You just guide them with 1 beam (or laser "spot" from illuminator for SA laser homing), and change targets from closest to furthest, proper launch spacing is required.

[wraith frigate]

Fair, but still, line-of sight guidance though (without F&F), and I got the impression you are against ANY kind of guidance with no F&F.

[gloomy spade]

I would be fine with "automatic" non-FnF, just not with using helmet visor as the SACLOS scope lol

[wraith frigate]

Anything that isn't radar F&F (or radar track+beam riding combo like Khrisantema), correct. And you can probably confuse that too with chaff (small target that is moving too slow for proper PD filtering)

[wraith frigate]

Which is exactly what I purposed here (#1268792999857356891 message)

[true temple]

This just means you go back to taking longer to kill targets and giving them time to take cover.

[fringe ravine]

yea multi launch f&f is just too much better for that to have any value

[cloud crow]

what should we have
if we only have optical, it'll get mundane

[dusky herald]

Ground radar guidance potentially, either jammable because it uses the aircraft’s radar, or unjammable because the radar is in the missile.

Those could fit quite well with the EW vehicle suggestion.

[fringe ravine]

something actually useful/with value, instead of just a massively nerfed weapon that would have no reason to exist or be used over current weapons

[tropic jasper]

If you want a futuristic missile guided by lasers, could have a LIDAR-guided one...