I know this is going to sound like a Revoker with a full AG load or something, but hear me out: what if one side has a different training philosophy and therefore has a small, sleek trainer with afterburner and maybe even the option for a small radar. The T-7 and T-38 come to mind as examples. I say give this thing six hard points and maybe an internal gun, plus a centerline station to allow for a single nuke or other bomb like the Compass. Make it slightly supersonic at low altitude, but maybe a bit less maneuverable than the Compass due to higher wing loading for supersonic flight. So if the two had to dogfight, this new jet would want to fight in the vertical more than the Compass. Also this thing would have less flight time than the Compass due to the afterburner drinking more fuel, although careful use of it would somewhat mitigate this.
#Supersonic trainer/light attack
rain frost
Maybe also reduce the max load of the inner hard points to account for that higher wing loading as well, say only twin PAB-250s instead of the triple racks that the Compass gets. Otherwise the load out options would be basically the same, other than perhaps allowing four Scythes instead of two.
rain frost
plucky hornet
what separates this from a revoker? or the new Multirole? or a compass?
tardy trellis
what separates this from a revoker? or the new Multirole? or a compass?
this is suggesting a cheaper, lower power revoker, possibly carrier capable. a niche that fits perfectly into the game.
plucky hornet
this is suggesting a cheaper, lower power revoker, possibly carrier capable. a n...
revoker should be carrier capable? will it not be?
tardy trellis
revoker should be carrier capable? will it not be?
it wont, it may get a carrier variant though
gear is too weak, only one engine, very high AoA for landing, all not good for carrier operation
maiden cloud
I kinda love this idea but it seems to fit more on the "opposite team"
Like if they added a faster, heavier, but "dumber" turboprop as a counterpart to the compass
plucky hornet
turbo props only really work for cargo and heavy bombers these days, and thats mostly just historical momentum
things irl do not work like videogame gun balance, there are sometimes just straight upgrades.
maiden cloud
I meant cricket, idk why I keep confusing the two
The cricket could have a double turboprop counterpart, thats the bets way to do it imo
Faster, less maneuverable, larger but dumber payload, better guns
This is sorta the same idea, changing the performance factors around to get a very different playstyle
plucky hornet
why would you fly a turbocricket, when you could just fly the helicopter?
maiden cloud
Speed, bombs, being able to fly very far on one engine
plucky hornet
so you want speed and bombs, just use the compass?
maiden cloud
This isnt the place to discuss this
#1230723562143354953
plucky hornet
range and payload are within a turboprops purvue, but you won't get speed out of one.
plucky hornet
This isnt the place to discuss this
<#1230723562143354953>
- you literally started this sidetrack, you can't pull the "not here" card
maiden cloud
I like this suggestion because it lets us access supersonic aircraft a bit sooner and without breaking the bank after economy probably
maiden cloud
+ you literally started this sidetrack, you can't pull the "not here" card
Im all for continuing it, im not trying to get out, I just dont wanna get moderated for it lmao, so go to the proper channels for it if you wanna talk about it
rain frost
+ you literally started this sidetrack, you can't pull the "not here" card
I can
Can we stay on topic?
rain frost
this is suggesting a cheaper, lower power revoker, possibly carrier capable. a n...
Sums it up pretty much exactly.
stark reef
in flip's defense i understand the dedicated attacker suggestion more than this one
this does just sound like a revompass
which i guess is appealing to some but i'm not sure how to feel about it
maiden cloud
I definitely want a deticated cas tied to the revoker sometime, just something to get away from using the compass for every deep cas mission
plucky hornet
we are getting that, next patch, its called the ifrit
stark reef
i would also say wanting a non-compass CAS ties into #1227297803642867776
maiden cloud
we are getting that, next patch, its called the ifrit
Ifrit is a super expensive plane though, honestly I might avoid it more than I try to get it
stark reef
hence the aforementioned suggestion
affordable CAS that isnt the compass
i just understand that one more than having a revompass
plucky hornet
this sounds like a 2 years from now when we are diversifying the factions suggestion
maiden cloud
I think a revompass makes more sense as a compass counterpart once we get far enough to have those, but a deticated cas makes more sense now than the revompass
stark reef
this sounds like a 2 years from now when we are diversifying the factions sugges...
that's what i was thinking, i could maybe see this when we're really getting into having faction-specific aircraft
maiden cloud
All ideas I love though, we've got lots to work with conceptualizing future faction specific planes
stark reef
but i'm still not too sure what to think of it even then
seeing what the revoker will cost in the new system vs the compass would help
maiden cloud
Probably a lot lol
plucky hornet
less than you would think, the revoker isn't "That" advanced, it just has a better loadout, and an afterburner.
stark reef
i kind of forgot i can just, find that out
but i'll have to do it when i get home
i imagined the cost difference wasnt too drastic but i honestly have no clue off the top of my head
stark reef
okay nvm i checked the numbers
think i'll remain on the fence about this
i'd assume its subject to change, but the gap between rank 1/2 and rank 3 isnt that massive in the broad scope of the new system
tardy trellis
i'd assume its subject to change, but the gap between rank 1/2 and rank 3 isnt t...
the numbers are the same in the current public version btw
stark reef
well, just erring on the side of caution, never know if costs may suddenly change as the update going into the new system is worked on
tardy trellis
true
rain frost
Well a lower-powered, cheaper Revoker would be kind of nice, particularly with carrier capability. Maybe rank 2
stoic sigil
Well a lower-powered, cheaper Revoker would be kind of nice, particularly with c...
Literally A-4
maiden cloud
Idk if the A4 is even supersonic
plucky hornet
stark reef
i believe its subsonic yeah
rain frost
Definitely subsonic, wasn't designed for high speed. Like I posted above, I was thinking more F-5B/T-7
rain frost
Something like these
Or even something like this, but with AB.
A couple more ideas.
tardy trellis
2 engines please 🥺
rain frost
Why? That just means two afterburners, which means even more fuel consumption
tardy trellis
Why? That just means two afterburners, which means even more fuel consumption
redundancy
no but to be fair we have a lot of twin engines already
plucky hornet
TRIJET
slender sleet
extra engines on wing hardpoints
it's like a reverse drop tank
you can't fly as long with it attached, and dropping it makes you slower
spiral elbow
Literally A-4
Something like A-4 would be neat. Basically a downgraded (and maybe a bit smaller) Revoker but carrier capable. Id definitely fly a thing like that. Imo there's still a gap to be filled between Cricket and Compass (Chicane is its own thing). And a small single seat subsonic jet would fit right in.
rain frost
Except the A-4 was subsonic...
rain frost
it's like a reverse drop tank
you can't fly as long with it attached, and droppi...
That would incur quite the drag penalty, terrible. Single engine just seems to fit this one better.
spiral elbow
Except the A-4 was subsonic...
I know and id be 100% fine with that
rain frost
Then you basically just have the Compass all over again
Not exactly the idea here. This whole post is about one side having a different philosophy for their trainer/light attack jet - supersonic but with less maneuverability and endurance.
distant nebula
spiral elbow
Not exactly the idea here. This whole post is about one side having a different...
Okay, but then one side would be at a disadvantage, no? Speedy planes pretty much always win unless the pilot is dumb
plucky hornet
it's like a reverse drop tank
you can't fly as long with it attached, and droppi...
from a game asthetics POV, i would be down with an ME-262 sorta engine arrangement.
rain frost
Just because it booms and zooms better than the Compass and is a bit faster doesn't mean it always wins. Compass would be more nimble, could be a fair match if both aircraft play to their strengths. Besides, energy tactics don't work super well when advanced IR missiles are involved, getting into the phone booth with a Compass in this thing would be extremely dangerous, and getting out of it just as dangerous if you don't happen to have some convenient mountain to duck behind.
rain frost
The only clear advantage the extra speed would give is a way to run away from a fight with a Compass if it had a sufficient head start
spiral elbow
Sounds like Compass would stop being my favourite plane. Realistically, nobody (unless new to the game) would get into a tight dogfight with Compass if they had the advantage of speed and lower manouverability
rain frost
Maybe both sides need this in addition to the Compass then? This would be a bit more air-to-air focused given the higher speed and somewhat lower strike payload
spiral elbow
I'm all for new planes, though I still feel like the thing you're suggesting overlaps with Compass too much. But if it's available for both teams then sure, why not? At the same time I'd like to see the gap between Cricket and Compass being filled first. One doesn't exclude the other
scenic garden
Summary:
Once factions get separate aircraft in the relatively far future, I think one faction should get the Compass and Ifrit. The other should get a new trainer aircraft (probably single engine) and the Revoker.
Reasoning:
I think a single engine trainer would make sense. I know it is not a big deal, as it has no effect on gameplay; but it seems to me like the Revoker and Compass don't really belong in the same military.
You can find examples of both single and twin engine military jet trainers. But most of the twin engine jet trainers are used by nations which have plenty of twin engine fighters. So that makes sense, and single engine jet trainers for air forces with multi engine fighters also makes sense. As single engine trainers should be cheaper to own and operate.
But currently, the step up from the (dual engined) Compass is the (single engined) Revoker. Why train your pilots on a dual engine jet in basic flight school that costs more, just to move the best of them over to a single engine air superiority fighter?
It could be for the Darkreach and Medusa, but going from acrobatic jet trainer to a strategic bomber or large EW platform is different enough. Why not also train the pilots on multi-engine in those flight schools? I think the sensible path would be Compass to Ifrit for one faction, and New Trainer to Revoker for the other.
Concept for the Trainer:
My thought on the new trainer would be that it would match the Revoker, being less multi-role and more A2A focused. This would help prevent it overshadowing the Compass. Loadout-wise, it should still be better at A2G than the Revoker.
Being single engine, it's base speed could be slower than the Compass. But as a lighter, sleeker aircraft, it could be more manuveurable than the Compass. It would have an after-burner, which would make it faster than the Compass, but at severe cost to endurance.
scenic garden
Conclusion:
These characteristics would allow it to offer a different alternative to the Compass, hopefully without making the later obsolete. It might make one faction too A2A focused, but this could be balanced by making a dedicated subsonic CAS focused attacker that is jet or turbo prop powered. This attacker could then be a bridge between the Cricket and Compass like Wjolcz is suggesting; at least until the factions are fleshed out and separated.
The factions would then have two distinct doctrines. The one operating the Ifrit/Compass would have more well rounded, but probably more expensive, multi-role aircraft. The other would have slightly cheaper, but more focused and specialized, designs.
The Compass is able to carry a pair of Scythes, a pair of MMRs, and 4x AGM-48s or a pair of bombs all at once. The new trainer might only have two pylons and have to pick between pure A2A, pure A2G, or lesser A2G with a pair of IR or Radar missiles for self defense.
plucky hornet
Every faction (IMO) should have a Prop A2g, a helicopter, a light jet/jet trainer, an interceptor, a strike fighter/multirole, a bomber, an E-War, and a cargo aircraft.
maiden cloud
Thats pretty obvious thought aint it
rain frost
Conclusion:
These characteristics would allow it to offer a different alternativ...
It would need 4-5 pylons minimum, maybe 7. Definitely not just two
scenic garden
I should clarify, I was thinking per wing
scenic garden
It would need 4-5 pylons minimum, maybe 7. Definitely not just two
so 4/5 total as opposed to 6/7* on the compass. The idea is that it carries roughly the same amount of ordinance, probably slightly less for A2G & slightly more for A2A. Maybe the pair of pylons that can carry AAMs has two missiles a hardpoint, instead of the Compass' one. Instead of pure capacity, the main penalty is to the variety of ordinance, the Compass will have more hardpoints so that it can carry a greater variety of stuff at once.
To give some examples, as there are a lot of possible loadouts, the Compass can max out at 10 AGM-48s or PAB80s/250s. 3x PABs on the inner pylons, 1x on the middle and outers; or 2, 2, & 1 AGM-48s. New Trainer might be able to do three PABs on each of the inner pylons and 1 PAB on each of the outer pylons.
So the max total would be 8x PABs or AGM-48s. But the Compass can bring 8x PABs/AGM-48 plus a pair of MMRs, or could go for a loadout of 4 different weapons. Whereas the New Trainer would be limited to 6x PABs if it wanted to carry a pair of MMRs or AAM, and could only carry a gun and two other ordinance types.
Alternately, the trainer has six pylons, but two are wingtip pylons like the Revoker or F16. These can only carry a pair of A2A missiles or nothing. Then the remaining four underwing pylons can carry A2G ordinance.
- I almost always carry a gun; so I tend to forget the centerline bay on Compass can carry other stuff if you leave the gunpod behind. Four would probably be enough if the aircraft had an internal gun, though five might not be bad. If both aircraft carry a gunpod as their main gun, then I think 5 is mandatory.
rain frost
That's a lot like my original suggestion. A supersonic trainer/light attack would be more like a mini-Revoker minus the speed and maneuverability than a faster Compass. Say four wing pylons and a centerline pylon, internal gun, gets twin missile launchers on all wing pylons (twin Scythes on the inner ones maybe), centerline can carry only a gunpod or bomb, or maybe a drop tank, and very limited internal fuel capacity. Single afterburning engine, carrier capability optional.
scenic garden
Fair, I think we mostly agree. There was a lot of discussion on the topic so I tried to layout my whole concept for the fighter. And that concept seems to have brought us around full circle to your original proposal, but with a few differences.
My thought was part of the differentiation should be better A2A loadouts, but weaker A2G loadouts. That better A2A loadout would include the ability to carry four Scythes. I think double A2A missiles on a couple of the pylons could work. However, the main issue is the Revoker tops out at 8 Scythes or 6 Scythes plus 4 MMRs. If you have too many missiles, you start to cut into that plane's role.
Even if the airframe of the new trainer/light fighter is worse in terms of flight performance and handling, I think there is a risk that it becomes a budget Revoker. But only if they are too many A2A missiles. As with the lower rank requirement (and the lower cost once economy is implemented), I could see players opting to use it as an A2A missile truck.
I definitely find the Revoker better than the Compass at A2A, but most of the advantages come from using the better speed and maneuverability to evade missiles better. The dogfighting advantages of these characterstics are not really that useful, as I mainly get missile kills. Some of that may be a result of my switching to a VKB flight stick, which IMO makes gun kills slightly harder. But I think allowing players with rank 1 aircraft the ability to carry and fire a lot of A2A missiles needs to carefully managed.
wet terrace
i mean a high wingloading trainer fighter wouldn't be bad
cunning marten
Maybe we should make the Compass supersonic, and add another subsonic jet that's in between Compass and Cricket. Compass looks fast enough to be supersonic but Compass lacks AB so it can't go unless its diving.
tardy trellis
Maybe we should make the Compass supersonic, and add another subsonic jet that's...
fuel capacity though
maiden cloud
Nah the Compass is fine subsonic, Revoker handles the supersonic range fine for now
plucky hornet
people do just be making up problems with the games vehicle list, and then proposing outlandish and stupid solutions to those made up problems.
"The Compass looks too fast"
"I want a shitter revoker"
"I want a supersonic A-4 Skyhawk" (Doesn't even mention A2A refueling SMH my head)
"I want a turboprop thats built for speed"
plucky hornet
people do just be making up problems with the games vehicle list, and then propo...
But.. that like 60% of all suggestions made lol
(The ones on unreleased dev posts are the funniest)
tardy trellis
why am i unable to react to that
stark reef
stark reef
people do just be making up problems with the games vehicle list, and then propo...
"looks too fast"