add satellites

[vague sedge]

i suggest the devs consider adding satellites, anti satellite munitions, and a couple computer controlled launch sites to the game. the satellites could either pass overhead a few times a match providing intel or sit in a geostationary position to provide gps (which the loss of could degrade gps guided weapons). it could also add to the data link.

while satellites could also provide an additional weapons platform, i am not currently advocating for that.

let me know what you think and if you have additional ideas / concerns related to this. thanks!

edit: additionally, i am not saying they should necessarily be a part of ~every match~, but having them for some game modes / some maps / custom missions could definitely be fun.

[delicate jewel]

based

[cedar charm]

ASATs are cool

[empty coyote]

gps sats could not be feasibly shot down by aircraft

they are at 35,786km where as surveillance ones might be at at 100km

[cedar charm]

Its 2070, maybe they developed a missile that could

[vague sedge]

that's reasonable, but adding them would give a game mechanic for gps, which would allow EW craft to degrade its signal / spoof to provide jamming against gps guided weapons (and players too, if the aircraft becomes somewhat dependent on gps for functionality)

[vague sedge]

additionally, ~36 Mm altitude is not a requirement for gps-like functionality. GLONASS works much closer at ~19 Mm. a missile travelling at mach 15 could reach that altitude in an hour. the height could be reduced to make it less impossible to destroy if needed. the darkreach could be given a missile with multiple solid rocket stages to reach it, or a ground-based system could launch against it (and players could defend these launch sites or attack the opposing team's)

[calm yoke]

that could be cool though im not sure if adding a missile for the sole purpose of shooting down a sattelite is a good addition, it should have multiple uses at least

so instead of a dedicated ASAT missile it would be like a big cruise missile that can take multiple hits from anti-air or missiles that can be used to attack big ground targets or defeat the satellite

[worn haven]

"When you get to hell,tell 'em viper sent you"

[empty coyote]

did you even read my message? thats an OBSENE range for a missile, to kill such a satellite you’d need a full size rocket

[cedar charm]

Oh, thats how big a megameter is

[vague sedge]

after sleeping on it, i don't think it makes sense to destroy a gps satellite anyway, since you'll want to use it as well for your own gps weapons. with gps specifically, it would make the most sense to have game mechanics to degrade or spoof the signal to deny your opponents access to it. anti satellite weapons would definitely make the most sense if used only against low orbit satellites, assuming each faction has their own satellites.

[empty coyote]

there are loads of gps sats, all by different countries so it makes sense to destroy the sats by the opposing force. i dont think boscali/primeva would have their own though, they probably buy rights to use them

[vague sedge]

yeah i think if they do have them, that they are like, jointly owned? i am assuming the greater boscali region was one country at some point, idk if that is canon.

[main torrent]

Maybe they could implement it with the rods of god

[vague sedge]

i hope not. such a weapon would be computer controlled because why would a fighter pilot control the weapon systems on a satellite? the computer would use it and you couldn't stop it and where is the fun in that?

[main torrent]

I was thinking it would be ai controlled. I had an idea where more powerful weapons such as multi megaton nukes and the like would be ai controlled (maybe a commander on each team could call them in?)

[upper delta]

A comander spot would be interesting, but very boring. With Medusa coming, teams in vc will be doing their own coordination and anything issued by a random person in the comannder slot would be fairly ignored

[main torrent]

I envisioned it as commanding ai vehicles and aircraft as well

[upper delta]

the AI for planes is fairly smart, and even if you give them a waypoint in the editor, they will break off and engage if there is a threat detected on data link. They will get new tricks . Grounds units are still pretty lemmings basic (they will drive into water....) and head to the nearest objective.

[frank forge]

I know it doesn’t make much sense but you could balance it (sorta) by having a ground building that acts as a signal amplifier, and if it gets destroyed the satellite would become less effective.

I.E. surveillance satellites could miss some targets that are harder to spot from above,
Or gps guided munitions could be more inaccurate,

This is a dumb idea but it could work,

[bitter whale]

That missile would be the size of a space rocket

[cedar charm]

Yeah im aware (capslock)
I learned that a megameter isnt a weird slang for kilometer, but a thousand kilometers

[bitter whale]

So your plane would be a mothership. Not an aircraft lol

[cedar charm]

C5 galaxy

[bitter whale]

Even the C5 would be tiny and "thin" compared to the weight of a launching space rocket
The best guess would be a missile silo but that's not what we fly lol

[bitter whale]

On the other hand, US GPS sat are not on the geostationary . They are on a lower orbit but would still require a larger missile and a 60 000ft+ launching platform

[rotund temple]

just want to say days later, even if they made a plane-portable asat capable of reaching gps altitude, it would take hours to actually get up to the satellite and wouldn’t make a meaningful difference in a match

[safe hearth]

an F16 can strike down a satalite with an expensive missile.

[bitter whale]

An F-15. Not an F-16. Plus it was a LEO (low earth orbit) target

Following this kind of sh*t was part of my everyday job

[safe hearth]

Thanks for the clarification! Your right. Here is a sim of that event https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWDiC1ZqAL0&t=250s

[bitter whale]

C-MO is a great tool.
I didn't know it could support an ASAT scenario. Thanks for bringing it, mate 👍

[safe hearth]

The commercial version isn't as decent as the "professional edition" even though there is nothing about the professional edition that can't be done on paper or in microsoft excell. Also, it's glitchy, at times, so in this attempt it seems like the radar modeling never alowed it to actually happen with the F-15? They needed to use a ship for that or something. (improvements are being made) It's certainly a fun tool. would be nice to have NO interface with it the same way that TACVIEW does

[bitter whale]

The target was around 555km high. GPS sat are in 20 000km/30 000km range.
But progress has been made since and it is now threatened by other means

[bitter whale]

I met guys who worked on that soft. They were in touch with the devteam and confirmed it was first sold as an intel tool. I only tested it for a few hours but it's indeed promising for complex scenarii

[safe hearth]

Awesome! Yeah the tool is basically setting patrol zones, and doctrines such as whether to investigate contacts outside the patrol zone, or when to return to base (because if they return to base with 10% fuel left they may not be able to engage a combat mission that may arise at that moment) (and then setting the ranges to expend missiles (50% probability of kill, 3 missiles, that sort of thing) so it's basically set boxes, and decide on 2 rules (fuel and missile range) and then watch results. I mean, it's more complicated than that, but it's basically like 5 main functions.

Palintir (don't like em cause a mythological silly story tool should not be the NAME of a data SCIENCE company) has an LLM and some of the software design looks siilar to CMO (buttons and colors of the top and horizontal interface) https://youtu.be/rxKghrZU5w8?t=190 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEM5qz__HOU

The S-550 may be able to also hunt satellites. That said though, even satellites really far up, as you stated, in geo-synchronous orbit) are still vulnerable. Lasers and heat can still cause disruptions. There was a video on reddit of satellite footage, live video, from some pegasus spyware stuff or something, and in the planes can be clearly made out, so detailed live surveillance is totally possible from space. And there is are enough satellites to get pictures of almost any place once every few days. So in a war, there would already be "probability estimates" of the locations of certain assets. https://youtu.be/2AGykk08pcI?t=277 Having satellites modeled would be logical. Or at least, some of the effects they would provide. Then again, if nukes are an option, then it would be assumed lasers to fry the glass would already have been used in the warzone and only basic images are available. (nuclear pumped lasers may even fry satalites from the ground, or at least ruin ANY images from being taken) As would thousands of FPV drones of artificial intelligence!

[outer owl]

cyberwarfare time?

[empty coyote]

how would you simulate that

[outer owl]

i have no clue

blow up enemy power lines and WIFI routers?

[empty coyote]

let the pilot pull out a thinkpad and hack into the boscaili defence force intelligence mainframe

[outer owl]

lol

[vague sedge]

Cyberlance truck parked next to radar truck

[outer owl]

and antenna towers similar to radar towers

[solid widget]

can indeed comment here on this subject. . . there is indeed a system in place that can be used though it has never been deployed it is considered "Active service" and that would be the ASM-135 ASAT (in this case a multi stage Kinetic Energy Kill style missile with a operational range of over 300 miles this info is available on Wikipedia but the range might not be exact (haven't read the wiki on it for a while)

[light loom]

Perhaps a possible mission could be to defend missile launch sites to destroy satellites while the other side attempts to destroy them

[main torrent]

Huge missile similar to like an icbm interceptor maybe? Accelerates to hypersonic speeds in the atmosphere and leads the sat while getting up to altitude

[cedar charm]

Apparently even man portable missiles (purpose built ofc) could kill a satellite
Problem is guiding it
I dont see a reason to add this to the game because people would just spaceclimb and spam all their asat missiles the moment theyre available

[main torrent]

I meant, anything could kill a satellite, but I'm pretty sure a man pads can't travel like 3000 miles at mach 25

[cedar charm]

This basically sums up my thoughts on this suggestion rn ngl

[upper delta]

https://launchercalculator.com/

lets ddddo the math

[cedar charm]

Oh boy
Obviously not stinger sized.

[upper delta]

math is done " "

[round maple]

[upper delta]

even with the minimum airfoil, and a theoretically weightless aerospike, with a ablative fuel system so the tank is fuel and has no mass, you could'n't get that shit into orbit from a shoulder launch

[round maple]

was about to ask what "purpose built" meant exactly in this context but it is probably along those lines

[upper delta]

looking into "gun"

[main torrent]

I mean, what manpads were you thinking of that could travel that far and fast?

[round maple]

dangerous

[round maple]

what is that crystal?

[upper delta]

RDX

yeah, off by a factor of 123

[round maple]

oh wait duh its an explosive, i recall seeing it before now

yeah only slightly off

just a bit

[upper delta]

aparently its is possible to make explosives with a detonation velocity of 10300 m/s

then you are only off by 105x

[round maple]

bah that's close enough right

just a slight adjustment

[upper delta]

a nuke pumped laser may actually work, having high enough intensity to turn the atmosphere into a fresnel lens.

but then you are holding a nuke pumped laser next to your head, and if you have that sorta equipment you can afford to just launch the damn nuke to the orbit you want to obliterate.

[round maple]

modern problems require excessively convoluted solutions

[solid widget]

oh someone else whom understands the concept of a BPL, luckily those can be adjusted to what ever power you want but it's damn difficult to contain the power of the REALLY big ones lol

[fiery igloo]

And no exotic fuel sources sooo

If it were the size of a revoker then maybe, but otherwise no missile can reach that heigh without a exceptionally efficient and energy dense fuel source..... Now that you mention it metallic hydrogen is dense as fck

[unique arrow]

it not necessary, we already have all things to destroy missles with another missles or laser or jamm

[fiery igloo]

A plane mounted laser is NOT destroying a satellite 15km above the surface

[unique arrow]

but... well yeap

[main torrent]

A satellite would be about 1,000 km above the surface… unless you meant the plane was 15 km up

[fiery igloo]

The karman line (the line seperates space and the earths atmosphere) is 100km up

And yes it's just an arbitrary number that I made up

[main torrent]

Ik

[fiery igloo]

Because frankly you're not shooting down a satellite that's 3km up let alone hundreds

Maybe with a terawatt laser with a ginormous focusing device but not a 130kw laser

[main torrent]

My idea was a multistage interceptor. It would be the size of a small rocket (let’s say a mercury redstone). It could accelerate to like Mach 10 in atmosphere, then get up to speed and intercept the sat once out of the atmosphere.

[fiery igloo]

You'll need to go somewhere along mach 30 to reach a orbit

So at least mach 20 to hit a sat

Also that's launching minutes or even an hour before the sat even arrives over the AO

[main torrent]

Yea. If we air launch a smaller missile, like f15 style, it could get Mach 10 in the atmosphere since the air is much thinner. With a fuel source like you mentioned (metallic hydrogen) it would absolutely have enough delta v to get up to Mach 25 or 30 in space. Otherwise it would need a small rocket to get that fast from the ground

Idk even know why we were talking about lasers in the first place. We already have this irl: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASM-135_ASAT

This one didn’t even get up to Mach 15. It also had a purely kinetic warhead. It still managed to intercept a 17,500 mph sat at about 300 miles up

[upper delta]

the kill range for the 150kw on the 'Dusa is like 7-4 km, at sealevel pretty much. sats are more fragile than missiles

[upper delta]

you can get up to mach ♾️ in space, as there is no air for sound to travel through.

MACH IS PRESSURE DEPENDENT. PLEASE DON'T USE MACH SIMPLY AS A "GO FAST" NUMBER.

[rotund temple]

150 miliwatts?

[round maple]

the dusa

[main torrent]

Mach from sea level I mean

[round maple]

reminds me of a time i had a spatter with someone cause, if i recall correctly, they said you couldn't call the revoker mach 2 capable because it cant do it at the deck and only at very high altitude with a lot of time spent building speed, while i just said the mach number is the mach number

and the medusa laser damage falls off greatly beyond 3km, but yeah, vs more fragile things it can reliably whack at all the way up to 10

at least

if i remember correctly even 15 is on the table

[fiery igloo]

Sats aren't more fragile than missiles. Missiles have numerous sensitive instruments just like satellites and satellites usually have more mass. And plus they dont usually give air to air missiles any armor

Since satellites usually have at least a little protection against micro space debris, which is usually multiple layers of thin metal, I mean that's already better than most missiles that get shot at us in game

Missiles have to be compact, with every single component crammed into the same location and with not a lot of redundancy. Satellites are deisgened to operate for long periods in a potentially dangerous environment, so there are empty spots in its hull and some redundant features

[slow python]

Ĺɛ ɓųmp

Bet a scythe launched from 60k feet (Ifrit service cielling) could hit one

[cyan halo]

military satellites from 2070 might have a bunch of fuel and just dodge your missile
orbital refueling moment

[slow python]

Pretty sure they would just use a laser unless it is a dedicated anti satellite missile, besides they cant just thrust out of the way, and would prob use ion engines

[outer owl]

oh yeah, imagine the range of the medusas laser in space

[cyan halo]

sure they can thrust out of the way. If current massive rockets and orbital refueling efforts are any indication, military satellites are going to be designed to dodge and maneuver.

also, they can just have multiple sets of engines to use. Ion for long term burns and stationkeeping, and chemicals for dodging or fast orbit changes. And yeah, they'd have laser weapons too probably.

[outer owl]

the scythe is meant to hit maneuvering fighter jets, I bet it would be pretty hard to dodge without significantly changing your orbit

[slow python]

They cannot just thrust away they are on a fixed orbit and that would throw it off by quite a bit, and missiles have more manuverability

[cyan halo]

orbits aren't fixed, satellites dodge things already in real life. Although, the dodges are planned in advance and they are dodging space debris and not weapons.

[slow python]

With tiny changes in trajectory not sudden strong burns

[outer owl]

I think we can all agree that a laser would be the best solution

[cyan halo]

Even if the satellite had a laser gun on it to shoot at missiles with it would probably still do evasive maneuvers.

That's all assuming that ASAT weapons are used enough and common enough for military satellites to be made to survive them though.

[slow python]

Against a 40g capable ASAT missile

[cyan halo]

It's better than just sitting there I guess. Also, if the missile gets disabled, you still might want to move so that it's burnt wreck misses you.

[outer owl]

eh, probably not, just make guiding the laser harder. they might have to rotate to get the missile in the FOV of the laser though, but after it is destroyed i agree you might want to move

[cyan halo]

dodging forces the missile to burn more fuel and waste it too. dodging makes it harder to aim since it isn't aiming at a point anymore, but wherever you could possibly dodge. It turns the target from a single point to hit to a zone you have to predict where it will be.

It depends on what sort of engines everything has though, and if orbital refueling is a thing. If a satellite wastes a bunch of fuel dodging it's going to need a refill, either that or it's doomed itself already.

[outer owl]

but it also makes the missile a zone instead of a point, so it is harder to aim the laser, i think it really depends on the power of the laser and the delta V of the missile and how much it can widthstand the laser

[slow python]

Besides it only has so much liquid fuel and once it's spent it's spent. Typically it stays in the same orbit, only passing over the target for less than a minuite at a time, and really has no RWR to tell it to move anyway.

[cyan halo]

I think the satellite might know what future moves it will make, which would make aiming it's laser easier while dodging. But yeah you guys are right about fuel limitations. I just think the satellite might thrust around a bit to try to make it harder for the missile.

It really depends on how efficient the satellite's engine is and if it can be refuelled in the future.

[slow python]

Its cheaper to send up a new one. That's why we don't refuel them. And ion engines run on solar power, so..

[cyan halo]

hmm If orbital refueling is included in the NO setting, an upside is that all of our satellites might need maintenance rockets so we get more rocket launches during a game. After an ASAT attack the satellites need to get refueled so more rockets get launched.

I think pretty much every rocket outside of maybe special military ones will be fully reusable by 2070, probably much earlier.

By special military ones I mean things that are kept in bunkers to be launched as replacements for lost ones in orbit.

If we had satellites in the game rocket launches would be a somewhat fun mechanic and setpiece I think.

[outer owl]

honestly in a few years almost all rockets could be reusable, just look at how many spacex launches

[slow python]

Since current military satellites are basically just space cameras and GPS relays im pretty sure we just deorbit them and send up a new one

[cyan halo]

The space force is still looking into orbital refueling for the purpose of making satellites more mobile and survivable. in real life.

ASAT missiles versus GPS satellites might be more evenly matched since both have a very long time to react.

and also they want to save money by making their stuff last longer, been checking a few articles about it.

[autumn thistle]

What about ASAT kill vehicles launched by, say, ICBMs like the Minuteman 3?

[cyan halo]

I don't know. Sounds like a fast one. Your satellite might have to have a giant fuel tank and engines to get away from that one. It would be like strapping a rocket second stage to the back of a spy satellite or something. Which I still think could happen, but it's a big departure from what we have now.

If the ASAT has to climb up to find it's target then it's like another satellite that can be attacked with a different ASAT weapon.

[autumn thistle]

I was thinking high speed chaff or flare dispensars for suborbital ASAT defense

Yeet flare at ~200m/s

[cyan halo]

honestly all this satellite stuff would probably just be the game doing RNG and giving us a "hit" or "miss" result.

It would be fun if rocket launches were added to the game to make the space war more involved. Imagine shooting a rocket in midair with your fighter jet, or if it's a reusable rocket, intercepting it as it comes in to land.

The rockets would be carrying replacement satellites, fuel, maybe ammo to satellites, etc. They could be a starship clone or maybe a mini version of that.

If you stop a fuel and ammo rocket from going up, your enemy satellites become more easy to hit since they can't dodge or fight back as easily.

and also I think a fighter based ASAT missile should probably be a big dedicated one that's heavy like they really are, not a scythe. The scythe isn't an ASAT missile. It's just a normal fighter radar missile.

I think rockets would be more fun than satellites anyway. And shooting satellites would be a way to negate the advantages that the other teams rocket’s provided.

[slow python]

Guys the satellite would not move out of the way. Kinetic ASAT weapons just measure its orbit for example, it has no RWR to tell it a little metal rod going 10 miles a second is coming for it, nor would it have flares, as there cannot be fire in space.
All satellites would do is occaisionally pass over and give enemy locations every once in a while. ASAT missiles would be garunteed to hit if fired from very high with enough momentum.
Destroying them would not be a top priority, they would just mark buildings and show convoys, ships, and aircraft where they were last seen.
Their effectiveness would go down at night and with clouds.

After all, you have a limited window to hit it with an ASAT and would need to already be high up waiting.

[cyan halo]

In game, @slow python , I think the way you describe satellites would be the best since it doesn't take too much away from the main game (flying planes). that would probably be the best implementation. Nice and simple.

I would add that satellites have to be replenished and replaced by launching rockets that can be shot down (either while ascending or landing). This would add a bit of spectacle to the game, a cool strategic location to fight over (the rocket launch sites), and something fun to blow up, the rocket. Maybe (possibly) an evasion mechanic could be added to encourage players to guard their rockets by buffing them to be harder to hit. (simulating the satellites doing evasive maneuvers)

A dead projectile would be even easier to dodge than a missile. That is if the satellite can detect it with some radar or something. Lets stop arguing about that though since it doesn't really go anywhere.

[slow python]

Defenseless yet rarely targetable and replaceable satellites that fly over every few mins? Yes please.

[cyan halo]

What do you think of rockets being added alongside the satellites?

We could also potentially get a darkreach expendable mini rocket for launching very tiny satellites. that would be kind of fun.

[slow python]

Previous message reply:
I just used the metal rod as an example as i think the us is thinking about it

Current reply:
Rockets for replacing satellites yes, endoatmospheric tactical ballistic missiles, sure.

[cyan halo]

I think if there was more than one type of rocket we could have multiple types of satellites

-comm satellite: (if more complex datalink is added)
gives datalink connection to all friendly units under it as it passes by. can be launched from darkreach

-fighter satellite: when launched, it hunts down an enemy satellite, destroying it after a certain amount of time. Launched by heavy rocket from a launchpad

-orbital weapons platform: A missile launcher, stationed in orbit. Can be fitted with conventional or nuclear warheads. fired manually by players from the map screen. Each satellite only has three shots, and they can be intercepted by stratolances before they hit. Launched by heavy rocket from a launchpad

-scout satellite: equipped with high performance radar to scan the ground for enemy forces and aircraft.

I think the weapons platform could be a fun one. You tell it to shoot something and next time it passes over head a missile is reentering.

Here's a diagram of an air launched rocket, which I think could be used for the light satellites or for reloading weapons platforms. The advantage is that it can be launched from airports but it's very expensive and expendable.

[autumn thistle]

If darkreach gets a successor, it should get afterburners to enable hypersonics and/or satellite launch

[cyan halo]

the fighter satellite is a guaranteed kill on an enemy satellite, but ASAT weapons from fighters need to be fired at a specific time and place to hit. I felt I should clarify that.

[slow python]

Time and place: very high going fast.

[cyan halo]

The fighter sat is Probably not necessary but I think a weapons platform would be fun.

If you don’t shoot it down it would do a lot of damage and would be a way for a team stuck on the defense to still pull off a win.

[autumn thistle]

Meaning cricket and chicane are definitely off the table for ASAT

Compass and darkreach are iffy

[cyan halo]

ifrit is prob the only suitable plane since it can fly pretty high and fast

[empty coyote]

why not revoker? it can go extremely high, too

[cyan halo]

I never tried flying it so high so yeah, that one too

[molten gyro]

Shooting down or replacing one Satellite wouldn't be that significant then.

A Satellite at 300km altitude needs around 90 mins to complete one whole orbit.
Meanwhile the earth rotates, shifting the orbit for a ground based observer.
You get a few overflights of the same sat in 90 min intervals with again a few overflights some hours later (all dependent on orbit inclination and ground position).
Napkin maths suggests that if you want sats to fly over every 5 mins over the same place you need a constellation of around 150 sats which is a lot to shoot down.

[slow python]

I dunno, just an idea. When I see them in the sky they pass over pretty quick, so I did a lot of guessing. Regardless, I still want satellites that pass over and show locations once in a while.

[molten gyro]

Same, but i want to throw nukes at the satellites.
Game's called nuclear option for a reason right?

Once an escalation limit for one side has been reached the team could vote to nuke space itself and deepfry any sats passing over.

After that the datalink on both sides could be relying more on unit to unit comms to update enemy positions on your map.
Would also give medusa the role of a 'wifi hotspot' for the team as a sat replacement.

(+ Nukes in space looks pretty, as seen in the starfish prime test)

[cyan halo]

Space nukes. Hadn’t thought of that +1

[cyan halo]

when the war goes nuclear, the atomic ASATS are released and the sky is filled with unnatural aurora

[slow python]

Why nuke a singular camera satellite when you can throw an ASAT missile at it

[cyan halo]

the space nukes damaged or destroyed a bunch of satellites not just one. I sort of see what you're saying though

[light mist]

F-15 says hello

[empty coyote]

that was in low earth orbit, not in geostationary

let me show you

actually this one works much much better

red is what the F15 shot down

green is what we are proposing to shoot down

notice the massive difference

[light mist]

oh bruh

[wary maple]

I was against this until someone suggested anti-satellite-warfare. I think having the opportunity to engage satellites several times per match would be interesting, as it would encourage high altitude BVR which we don’t see too much of in normal matches. Plus firing nuclear ASATs would be hella cool if we could see the explosions in low orbit and have some kind of weak EMP effect on the datalink.

[light mist]

but to be fair, nowadays we could probably construct ordinances that can get there, i mean the hardest part is reaching LEA
and considering that, as far as im aware, NO is situated some time in the future, they'd be able to do it