KOF Coaching

[split grotto]

But Geese is my best example. What do you do after he does that palm

I tended to get smacked after that pretty often

[grim crypt]

The first hit of geese's rekka is -4 for light and -6 for heavy

You can punishing the light one most likely unless you have a character that can

[plush delta]

Sounds like you are getting knowledge checked a lot. Don’t worry there are characters whose frame data I don’t know yet. Characters like Antonov and DLCs like Kim

[plush delta]

He has a very good meaty setup which is what you are prolly getting hit with

[grim crypt]

I'm not saying you should look up everyone's moves like your competing for tekken but if you get knowledge checked really hard from a specific move you should go hit the lab and see what's up lmao

[split grotto]

Ah, that's the thing. That kinda happens for like everyone I fight though. That's why I assumed I might as well just look up every character from the top down

[grim crypt]

And if you don't own the character then hit up dream cancel and go from there or ask people here who do have them

For character like billy I only bothered how to punish his stupid lvl 1 since all billy players do that on wake up

and that's all I need

no need to worry about anything else

[split grotto]

Like I assumed for the most part, that most moves are pretty obvious whether their turn is up. But either I'm too slow to punish which happens a lot. Or it's just safe.

[warped pine]

My method is pick up the character and watch what people do to stop you 😅

[split grotto]

It's weird, I know the bodega isn't safe from Shingo

[slate mica]

Or the Frame of Fighters phone app!

[split grotto]

I've seen it get hit with a punish counter but that's like certain character

[grim crypt]

It's -6

[grim crypt]

Did not know about that, will check out that app later today

[plush delta]

Nah some aren’t obvious at all

[grim crypt]

Most things that are like 6 frames are things like sweeps

but depending when you do 236A in a blockstring you might just be safe in general

if your point blank you probably are gonna get punished

with a better starter at that

[split grotto]

That's fantastic, explains why Iori just casually sweeps after that block sting

[grim crypt]

See

And all it took for me to look at the frame data lmao

Most sweeps range from 6-8 frame iirc

[split grotto]

Nah, I understood that it wasn't "safe" but that's how I feel about Shingo kick as well

I don't think Shingo has a safe block string special ender

About everything is -5 at the best.

[grim crypt]

Well you don't always have to end a blockstring with a special move

you shouldn't at alll really unless you know your gonna be plus or have some sort of mixup imo

If someone has bar they can guard cancel roll and punish you

But that barely happens in ranked anyway unless your high up

so don't worry about it to move

[split grotto]

Ah it happens a lot actually against Joe. I've noticed a lot people GC roll after the command normal

[grim crypt]

Yeah that'll also get you clipped

[split grotto]

I've definitely always ended strings with a special because unless I got really bad timing it feels really slow to hop after some normals

[grim crypt]

Well some characters have different jump speeds

I doubt any of the characters you want to play are floaty particularly

Just something you gotta get use to

From the top of my head yamazaki has a faster fall speed than most the characters you wanna play

Which is why he can and instant overhead with jD

[split grotto]

I mean I think everyone I play is about average I would assume except Yamazki

[slate mica]

Yamida

[sinful herald]

Set the dummy to reversal throw after blocking, this will cause far C if you’re out of range. Do the string and then press CD, see what happens

Guess less bro. Guessing isn’t how we win consistently, people aren’t beating you because they are guessing better or are more lucky than you. If someone is rolling a lot, stand still and wait for the next one because you know it’s coming. Blow that shit up

[split grotto]

Listen right, I just recently understood a lot of the game is risk and guesses. Because of just how the brain is. It's real easy to notice when I guess wrong or get read. Like throwing a fireball and getting counter hit. Or just getting thrown out of my rolls, or even just getting hopped on when I do a sweep. But I'm not great at reading or reacting to rolls whatsoever. I still don't understand how people do it

[rancid marlin]

It’s not even necessarily that. It’s just a video game. Games have like, a cause and effect to them yeah? Like you do x and you get y. You do a minus move, this is what happens. You do a plus move, this is what is available. There is a specific sequence of events that lead up to each other and a set of countermeasures for some of those things as well.

[rancid marlin]

You knock someone down, they can either roll, or not. So at that point it’s up to you to decide what you want to do with that and many other scenarios

Even when it comes to just rolling around in neutral. When do they roll? Do they roll before you attack? Do they roll just for the hell of it? Chill out for a moment catch them lacking

[split grotto]

On wake up right, it's roll, DP/Invul ground strikes/Armored moves (Clark grab), super, and if I'm close grab

So I used to not really attack on KD but then Zero kinda ran over me and told me to do it more. Then I started getting grabbed so not I try to use moves out of grab range if I can't/don't know the safe jump, and the moves at that range lose to reversals and grabs

[rancid marlin]

Do you want to learn safe jumps and how to space out so you won’t get grabbed ?

[split grotto]

I know some of them, and spacing out a 2B to go into 2A at a range that's not throw range feels real hard to do.

[rancid marlin]

lotta shit be hard to do but u gotta hop in there n learn it unless u wanna keep being dissapointed

up to you though at that point

there are answers just gotta follow thru

[split grotto]

I understand, I was just saying since 90% of the time I just "Fuck around and find out" which led me to saying it's not worth it so press on a KD etc.

I mean I'll try it regardless

[split grotto]

I'm gonna start getting these games on video that make me want to uninstall this damn game

Ranked brings out the worst in me

[rancid marlin]

why would you want to uninstall?

KOF is so fun

[split grotto]

Because I kind of don't stand a chance against these people

[rancid marlin]

oh my gosh pls stop

[split grotto]

I'm gonna bring myself to record a video of it at least for sure. Then rest this headache away

Since I can't get better without losing but I don't know how to lose better

Like I got hit with 2 raw climaxs in the same game

[grim crypt]

How did you get hit by the them

[split grotto]

I jumped

[grim crypt]

You got your answer then

They anti aired your jump with climax

(personally I think they were just mashing it)

[split grotto]

Well this is what I mean by the whole "I did paper and they did scissors" it's like am I not supposed to jump any more in that match

And I get mind flooded from that point onward

[grim crypt]

No you should still jump

But maybe change the timing of when you jump

Kof isn't as black and white like street fighter

[slate mica]

I feel like there are some aspects in this game which see things in that "logical, sensing, intellect" part of the brain and parts that see things in the "wisdom, intuition, insight" part of the game.

If that makes sense

Like, remember that for all your mental stack is being flooded, remember that your opponent also has to keep track of their own mental stack. And sometimes that risk/reward pays off -- sometimes it doesn't

[split grotto]

Like I don't leave any games in this discord muttering "Trick ass game why do I even play it" but ranked it always happens like I get timed out because I can't figure out offense to save my life, I get read, guard broken etc. It's like all the negative just absolutely stack really hard for me in ranked

Which is weird

I don't know, I feel in ranked because I have no direct feedback I feel like I do everything wrong and nothing right

Like I uh, try for my anti airs but about miss them and get cross upd and thrown.

Or I just can't open the opponent up etc, and it's just a lot more noticable in a FT2

[sinful herald]

The only time we are guessing is when we are on wake up and the opponents options are:

-meaty 2B
-throw or cmd grab
-block

That’s literally it. If you’re “guessing” while on offense and hoping it’ll work out that just being random by another name. Offense means there’s some kind of plan, maybe it works maybe it doesn’t but it’s not like we’re out here rolling the dice and deciding what to do off that

Our characters have tons of options and it’s up to us to cycle those and also pick from the ones that will beat the options our opponent is representing

Respectfully, it really sounds like you’re kinda flailing and hoping it’ll work. Anyone who’s played long enough will see that pretty quick and just wait for you to overextend on one of your guesses

When I was doing that what really helped me was to actually sit down and write out all the ways that I can start my offense onto a flash card or something and reference it while playing

At least then I had a plan

[split grotto]

Once again, I think I've said it before. I think I barely understand or legit don't have an understanding of offense or KOF in general

Like I try the 2A 2A hop whatever but at the very least people don't ever seem to fall for that, so it just feels extra hard like I'm asking to get hit with a DP or just a jab

[sinful herald]

To me, it just sounds like you’re not practicing this. 2A is plus your hop (therefore your hop attack) will beat everything except invincible reversals

You can keep on just playing matches and not labbing but it’s the hard way and the most time consuming

[split grotto]

Doesn't it also lose to 5As and some larger 2As

[grim crypt]

And?

[split grotto]

Thought that was the whole point of reacting to hops

[sinful herald]

Not if we immediately hop

If they are in block stun then no

[grim crypt]

That gonna stop me from doing rehop pressure

[sinful herald]

They will get hit on the startup of their button

[split grotto]

With what air button? I must be really bad execution which I'm all for accepting that.

[sinful herald]

Ok we’re talking about 2 different things here. Re hop pressure is fake

2A > hop is not

Also reacting to a hop with 5A is not what I’m talking about either

Do you understand the difference or nah?

[sinful herald]

Usually j.B but it just depends

[grim crypt]

I understood what you were saying smoke

[sinful herald]

Yeah I know you know zero

[grim crypt]

I was just kinda generalizing what I said re hop pressure since tyler get's discouraged if his hop gets checked

[sinful herald]

It used to bug me too, same with eating a DP. Then I realized unless it’s Meitenkun or Krohnen in the corner it’s not a big deal

Just a reset to neutral

[split grotto]

I mean you can't do the stupid option when it takes either a character to die or like 30 seconds to start offense

I've always thought my neutral and offense are my universal worst aspects in every game. But in this game my defense is also pretty not great. So like this ain't me making excuses I'll try the 2A hop jB thing but getting reset to neutral leads me back to the bottom of the mountain

[grim crypt]

You are playing at least 2 characters with a dp

Try and dp a hop instead

[split grotto]

I gotta ask, am I supposed to just be inputting DP after like light buttons or am I doing it as like a hard read

[grim crypt]

You should buffer it maybe yeah

But don't be calling out a hard as read lmao

[split grotto]

Alright how am I supposed to buffer an input facing the opposite direction of the block input?

[grim crypt]

This game has auto guard I believe

If it's a true blockstring the game will block it for you

The point is you should react more to hop/jump in pressure don't anticipate as much

It's the reason why I swept you so many times in our games

Because I know your looking for the jump

So I do a delay sweep and it beats your 5A

[split grotto]

How the hell do y'all react to hops? I really gotta be looking out for the feet leaving the ground. And that's not including like any overhead, grab or command grab

That's kinda crazy to me at least

[grim crypt]

You can go into training mode and practice against hop pressure

Set like 5 recording and make sure they're all on

That way it'll be random

Like one recording can be a simple ground string like 2B 2A sweep

next one could be 2B 2A hop immediately

After that it could be 2B 2A pasue 2B 2A

so on and so forth

That way you are building patience while also reacting to the hop

[sinful herald]

A lot of it is just spacing. I don’t need to look out for hops the entire match, just when I’m within range. Also whiffing fast buttons isn’t a death sentence like it is in SF

[grim crypt]

This too

[split grotto]

I don't mind blocking so much, I still don't get the mix of patience and watching my guard gauge. I was like mentally in one of the games I played where I was getting pressured by Liz and I was like "She doesn't have a crazy string or anything so I'll be able to block until it ends" and like I still get guard broken

I feel I'm doing too many things wrong

[sinful herald]

Who cares about being at the bottom of the mountain? Your opponent is down there with you too. KOF is volatile man, unless you’re getting upset that you aren’t steam rolling people

[sinful herald]

Once again, guard break means you’re giving up turns

Pressure doesn’t last long enough to do it in one situation

[grim crypt]

It also depends how is the elisabeth player pressuring

[split grotto]

I ain't interested in steam rolling people, it feels like about everyone gets up said mountain and at a breakneck pace to get in my face or start their gameplan. That's why it feels like such a detriment

[grim crypt]

if they're using the fireballs like I do you can blow it up

[split grotto]

No just 5Ds, CDs, jump in heavy buttons into regular block string and then repeat.

I just got mind flooded looking for my way out

[grim crypt]

and that is your biggest hurdle right now

You flood your mind with so much that you can't figure it out when the solution could be really simple

If she's jumping in with heavy buttons anti air her

[split grotto]

I've definitely been kinda smacked out of anti airs because I'm definitely slow at recognizing it. Like I had a game against Chris who I tried to 2C as Shingo but he just landed behind me and threw me. Which isn't the first time that's happened. So it's like, welp anti airing with the anti air button ain't the answer

[grim crypt]

see

SHINGO FUCKING SUCKS

But you should still use him

[split grotto]

Hey honestly, I feel I just should've held the block stun

But that lead to guard break etc

[grim crypt]

His dp goes straigth up you probably could anti aired him

[split grotto]

Zero the amount of times people land behind me when I DP is immeasurable

I absolutely shit you not

Unless I'm just doing it late

[grim crypt]

Maybe close C depending how close they are when they hop/jump

I'm just throwing out ideas of what you can try out

[split grotto]

This just brings me back to the "I got too much I'm bad it".

At this rate I feel like I gotta spend like 10 hours in the lab to work on like the 3 pillars of fighting games again.

Like I gotta research about all the characters I can't block against, learn their frame data which is probably about most the cast if not all the cast, practice blocking them and just reacting, my own offense, their answers to my offense, and then how do I get over to them without taking 50% before I land a I hit

Which without a doubt feels like a lot.

Unless I'm wrong, and I'm overcomplicating it, which is a realistic possibility

[grim crypt]

Yeah I'd say your overcomplicating it

[sinful herald]

Definitely. This isn’t Knowledge Check 50/50 Fighter 6 (and I love that game btw)

In KOF frame data and sequencing are pretty same-y that’s why we see high level players on the replay channel shredding right off top

[split grotto]

What does that mean?

I gotta ask, because I don't think I've heard "Sequencing" before

[sinful herald]

It means j.CD is always plus, 2A is always plus 2B is (almost) always minus

Stuff like that

No need to learn every single thing about every character

That’s why once we learn how to KOF picking up new characters is easier

[sinful herald]

Combo and pressure structure

[split grotto]

Is this 2A rising j.B?

I'm practicing it right now to make sure I understand it

[sinful herald]

Yeah 2A > hop B

[grim crypt]

This is so true LMAO

[split grotto]

I mean is It's j.B on the rising of the hop. Because if that's the case I'm decked in the face by Joe and Yamazki

[grim crypt]

I'm so confused right now

[split grotto]

Alright so you know how you said like Yamazki has an instant overhead. That's only possible if you press like 5D at the same time as you hop like right after

I mean the same with this jB

[grim crypt]

No I don't think he can with jB

[split grotto]

Alright, one second

[sinful herald]

Yeah that’s why I said it depends

Yama j.B is for A2A

[grim crypt]

It's specific to him and some other characters

[sinful herald]

Try hop A

[grim crypt]

Like jenet can instant overhead with jD

Leona can instant overhead with jA and jD

[split grotto]

Zero I didn't mean to talk about instant overheads I just brought it up as an example for what I'm talking about

At what point in the hop do I press the button

[split grotto]

It happens the same for Shingo and Liz

[grim crypt]

Deep enough

I can bring up a video of me doing it in a couple of mins

[split grotto]

Yeah alright, that ain't working. I'm definitely getting my lights knocked out when I try it

Like unless this has a specific frame I gotta be jumping on.

[sinful herald]

What reversal button is the dummy doing?

[split grotto]

Jab

[sinful herald]

You’re too slow then

[sinful herald]

Uhh you’re in the corner dude

And it’s 2A > 2A

Not just one

That’s what sets up the spacing

[split grotto]

Okay I saw 2A hop

So that's what I was doing my apologies

Also didn't know it was not corner exclusive

[sinful herald]

Yeah jumping hopping whatever when cornered not a good idea

Sometimes it’s gonna be a neutral hop

[sinful herald]

Add another move and try neutral hop

2B > 2A > 2A

Also if you notice they are mashing that you can stagger your press a little and hit them

[split grotto]

Is it only supposed to hit their 5A?

And not them?

[sinful herald]

I don’t understand

[split grotto]

One sec, so like I'm hitting their arm because it's out

[sinful herald]

Try 2B > 2A > 2A > neutral hop CD

[split grotto]

But not like their body

[sinful herald]

Yes that’s whiff punishing

Doesn’t matter where on their hurtbox you hit

[split grotto]

Okay so that's what I was asking about, like if they only jab the one time they just block it

[sinful herald]

There’s no way to know that

[split grotto]

Okay, so it requires

1. No ones back to against the wall
2. I have to be VERY close to them or have very proper spacing
3. And if it doesn't whiff punish I just jump and throw a button

I'm making sure I just understand the rules of it

[sinful herald]

Hang on a second

I’ll make some videos

[split grotto]

Am I misunderstanding any of what I listed?

[sinful herald]

I’m just gonna show rather than tell

[split grotto]

I appreciate videos though regardless, I just want to know any thing that it might not work on

Oh alright

[sinful herald]

Ok they’re uploading give it a sec

4 situations

1. Mash throw C or D
2. Mash 2A
3. Invincible reversal

4. Reversal 5A exactly one time

Dummy set to guard all

So in 1 jump D > full combo will also work

In 2 they get hit because they are being impatient and mashing

3 pretty self explanatory

And 4 they press once and have time to block

These are all reversals btw

For some reason they record as reversals but only show for the DP or a throw

Also, again for some reason, the game doesn’t count catching a button (or whatever) on startup as a punish. Only the recovery. That’s why I set the dummy to guard all because if it can block then it will

[split grotto]

Well alright I understand this example

I definitely done with KOF for the day ranked really just makes me feel like a fool. Like I guess I'll upload this 2 FT2s but I did so bad because I got ran up 2Bd like what felt like 30 times

[sinful herald]

Prob best to forget about ranked until you learn more about the gimmicks people will try

[grim crypt]

This why I said ranked isn't good for the learning the game

People just care about winning

[meager portal]

Ranked is not an honest game mode
So many gimmicks

[grim crypt]

Your more better to ask people for games here and learn that way

[split grotto]

It's just like regular stuff that I feel like I'm losing to.

Like just better play overall and I can't adapt at ALL

[sinful herald]

Every character has access to these kinds of setups. You’re gonna have to spend some time in the lab to find yours

[split grotto]

Like I wouldn't consider just Iori throwing a medium fireball as a gimmick

[sinful herald]

Ask @slate mica about his experience in ranked when he came back to it after running sets here for a while

[grim crypt]

I don't think I would of ever stuck with heidern if it weren't for the server

[sinful herald]

He was fucking flabbergasted iirc

[grim crypt]

I'd still be playing Iori/Kim/Krohnen

Krohnen is a lot more safe with the craziness of ranked

[sinful herald]

When I played ranked during the beta it was hilarious watching their body language on times I figured out their gimmick (not every time obviously)

Just literally, “Oh fuck what do I do now, he literally figured out my cheeky tactic”. Most times they’d just keep doing it anyway 😹

Force people to actually play the video game

[grim crypt]

I know one time in the crossplay beta I fought some dude who would just spam geese's sweep (it's 6 frames so I can't even blame) but the moment I starting hopping over his sweep and fireballs he was out of options lmao

The rest of his team crumbled

I assume they didn't have enough playtime on them

[split grotto]

I mean I'm only ranked because I want games, it would be neat if people were my level in the games but I guess I'm "where I should be" because I have a very strict like 50% win loss

Video is getting rendered so it'll at least be visible to the general public

At the very least watching it back I really think I'm not much better from where I started neutral offense and defense wise.

Which is why I think I also don't know what to look for in replays, my own or like pro/better players

[sinful herald]

For pro players look for stuff you can copy easily like round start options and what they do when they have someone in the corner. Also optimal routes if you want to streamline things (I do)

For your own look at what beat you in situations and figure out what a better answer would have been

[split grotto]

Yeah I'm really not good at that. I see it and am like "I guessed I wrong or was just kinda worse than the opponent" which doesn't seem constructive at all

So how am I supposed to know that I "specifically did something wrong?"

Sorry if it's a broad question

[sinful herald]

You sweep they hop punish

Stuff like this

An upward facing button would have stuffed the hop

Etc

Anyway learning how to constructively watch replays is a skill no one just knows how to do it off top

[split grotto]

Ah so I thought this was a "I lost the KOF RPS"

[sinful herald]

Yeah

So if you see that a bunch it means you’re sweeping too much or at improper spacings

The hard truth is that we can watch your replays and tell you what we see but you need to be the one to internalize it and see it for yourself

Otherwise it won’t stick

[split grotto]

I do pretty well at understanding about most people who watch these replays are better than I am. So I listen to it pretty well, the problem is me actually figuring out when I should do it in a live game

[sinful herald]

Just sounds like you’re being random and don’t have a game plan

[split grotto]

It's more of my game plan doesn't work and I run out of options

Since it's "get to opponent and kill opponent" but there's a lotta mud in-between that called winning neutral

At least that's my opinion on it. It might not be a real plan

[sinful herald]

Ok. Then it sounds like you are using very few options or very basic ones and then throwing your hands in the air when they don’t work

This game has a shit ton of ways to get in

It’s why zoning is kinda weak for example

I watched that set against the Robert btw. For one you’re leaving a lot of damage on the table by not hit confirming. This is really straightforward to practice

You also let them get away with a lot of unsafe stuff

So just working on those 2 will help a lot

But that’s done in the lab by setting up situations

Smacking a stationary dummy around won’t cut it

[sinful herald]

I also just posted 4 videos showing different situations in neutral. Go practice that stuff for a while

[split grotto]

I'm not trying to be rude or anything like that. Isn't that for when I get to the block pressure part of the game? When I do hit them

[sinful herald]

I would say whiff punishing is more neutral than anything else but that’s just me

[split grotto]

Oh, I mean fair I really didn't and don't think of whiff punishing.

Since for me it feels like a coin flip on if I press something at the right time to punish them

[sinful herald]

Just go practice those setups or hit confirms or something and hop off discord for a bit. Won’t get better here have to play the game

[split grotto]

Ah as I said I definitely am off for now but I'll give it a try later or tomorrow.

[plush delta]

@split grotto here’s some advise for when you fight @grim crypt next time. I think a big reason why you struggle is due to lack of character knowledge. Here are some of the most common things zero does for his characters.

[grim crypt]

YOU'RE EXPOSING MY SECRETS

https://tenor.com/view/emoji-gif-24664106

[plush delta]

Iori - I think you are most familiar with this matchup but a big thing with zero’s iori’s pressure is after a hard knockdown, he will whiff the running hitgrab then mix you with either a safe jump in front of you or do a hop taco crossup. I think you can rollaway to escape the pressure but of course he can punish it if he notices you doing this everytime. It’s a great Iori mixup that’s hard to defend

[magic harness]

The most common thing he does for his characters are:

• Heid: After sucking my life, crossup j. C into life suck again, looping me forever

• Kim: Comboing me to death

• Iori: Safe jump in the corner into infinite pressure

Lmfao

[plush delta]

Kim - the main thing that zero tries to catch you with is using Hisen Kyaku (236P). The light version is -2 on block, the heavy is +3 on block, and the ex is +2 on block so they are all very safe. However, and it’s not obvious from the animation, they all have a huge startup so you can hit him on startup. Most of the time you are too afraid to press so you just allow him to keep pressuring you until you get hit then the big combo starts

Learn to recognize the animation of this move and punish accordingly

Heidern - the 2 main things are, after the command grab, he will do the jump C crossup. Don’t guess. Roll forward if you see him jumping towards you after the command grab. If you roll too early before he jumps, he can punish the roll. The second thing is zero will do a block string into the crossup slash attack that you have to block on the opposite site which he can then cancel into super. It’s very hard to block, but you can hit him out of the crossslash. As it’s a fake string. So while blocking the block string. Hold down back and press 2A. This will allow you to hit him when he does the cross slash after the block stun. Practice this

@magic harness and @meager portal too. Sorry @grim crypt

[grizzled heart]

Can you 5A 236P ?

Trade ?

[magic harness]

Who tf is Dyl Byl?

Lmfao

[grizzled heart]

Shoutout Dyl Byl

[plush delta]

Fake dyl

[grizzled heart]

Fake Dyl Byl Fan

[magic harness]

I think we have like 3 Lunas here too

[plush delta]

Are you asking if Kim can do 5A 236p? I feel it’s likely but you can ask zero or test it in lab

[grizzled heart]

No like if you can 5A his 236p move

And it’ll beat it

[magic harness]

We have 6 Lunas here
Lmfao

[plush delta]

I’m guessing you can as the startup of this move is 21 for light, 26 for ex and 34 for heavy. So anything you do can beat it (at the right distance of course). The animation is tricky is he shout “hisen kyaku” while flying at you which makes you think it’s active so you instinctively try to block. Test it out in the lab. I’m basing all this on DC and looking at the ft10 footage zero shared

[grizzled heart]

Prolly hard potentially since it’s a neutral move

and would be kinda insane to challenge in a Kim cl.D 6B 236P K divekick cancel block string

[plush delta]

Yeah it’s safe if you launch it from far away but I notice zero likes doing it up close (I’m guessing using the light version)

[grizzled heart]

oh woah upclose ?

You can def throw too on block

[plush delta]

As part of his pressure

Oh one other Kim habit zero has

He likes to an air hangetsuzan that is safe on block then jump back and do another one to catch you pressing when you see him jumping back. I do the same as well with Athena and Robert dive kicks. The second hangetsuzan shouldn’t be safe on block anymore based on distance but I’m not 100% sure

[grim crypt]

To add on to this the light slash is punishable on block while ex and heavy are safe ex is faster than light and heavy is slowest out of all of them

[plush delta]

Rewatching your Kim matches, you actually do hisen kyaku as a whiff after a hard knockdown after a sweep or as part of a block string. What’s the frame for a whiffed hisen kyaku? Is it still plus? And can you punish the hisen kyaku as it comes out if it’s part of a block string?

Tyler was able to hit out the heavy hisen kyaku that you do if you do them on neutral

I think you can throw the whiffed hisen kyaku

[grim crypt]

so sweep 236A is a blockstring but if they are hit by the sweep when 236A is whiffed I get a meaty 2C

You can still reversal after and the sweep though

[plush delta]

So it’s plus. I think you can throw too besides the reversal

[grim crypt]

you can't, it sets me up for outside of throw range

[plush delta]

Ah tricky

Guard cancel till after a block sweep is one answer. Wonder if some command grabs can reach though

[grim crypt]

and you can see in my matches against nacho it can be amor grab if I go for 214B/D

Yeah if you guard cancel the sweep you might be able to punish

Most people don't try because no one plays kim lmao

[plush delta]

214B when? Are you talking about his rekka move in general?

[plush delta]

Kim is a heavy knowledge check for many players including me cause he is both new and not a lot of people use him

[grim crypt]

I'll clip it

[plush delta]

Oh wait 214b is hangetzuken

[grim crypt]

Yeah

[plush delta]

So are you talking about it when it is done in neutral?

Do you watch madkof Heidern? He has some good string strats with him. A lot of which you use actually

[grim crypt]

This is the meaty I was talking about

[grim crypt]

Yeah him and now chino funkey for heidern stuff

If they block the 2C I can do 236AC for plus frames or just 214B for safety

[plush delta]

Very great stuff. Kim has a lot of safe pressure

[grim crypt]

I stole that from a kim player in combo breaker

[sinful herald]

@grim crypt if you mix in stinger to this same string you’ll catch people trying to mash or hop out of cross slash. Can also mix in cmd grab if they’re spamming block

[sinful herald]

Chino also has a nasty ambiguous fake cross up with Heidern and if they roll forward can catch it with throw

[placid axle]

take that back

[grim crypt]

Ok so @sinful herald

1. I was to frustrated by getting hit by sweep so much that command grabbing with heidern wasn't in my thought process
2. I tried doing some of things chino did but I brain farted lmao

[sinful herald]

Oh hey I wasn’t trying to give you advice about the set with nacho. Just in general that’s the Heidern mix off that string they do, my buddy has a mean one that keeps me guessing

[grim crypt]

Oh I know it's just the match is still fresh in my head lol

[sinful herald]

Chino gdlk so I get it man I’m over here trying to be like Yurikov

[grim crypt]

I did catch some people with heavy stinger in a blockstring though

[sinful herald]

Bro I dropped a game winner against Juan KOF last night. All I had to do was the ender for Isla and it didn’t hit :/

Shit happens and it definitely kept me up for a while

[grim crypt]

I just auto pilot the cross up because no one blocks it

[sinful herald]

Yeah true it’s pretty crazy

[grim crypt]

I'll look back at the nacho matches sometime today

Outside of the input drops I swear I could gotten one on the board

[sinful herald]

You definitely could have. I think it’s a little annoying against players who would rather counter poke than block. Have to get creative and a little crazy sometimes

The thing I’ve noticed about players who like to get a life lead and then play keep away is that they rarely are able to run an offense at the same level as their keep away poke gameplan

Also if you learn how to fuzzy hop punish Clark will become way easier

You’ll love to see the random armor grabs and FS

[grim crypt]

I'll never forget I practiced the backdash os from my safe jumps to beat clark's amor and the one time I need it I mess it up

[grim crypt]

This I will start doing though

[sinful herald]

You’ll kill him and it’ll be glorious

[meager portal]

😳😳😳
ANOTHER DYL?!?!?

H U H

[slate mica]

Whoa I'm seein' double

Four Dyls

[magic harness]

Dyl through the Dylanverse

[meager portal]

The Dylverse of Goofiness

[split grotto]

As I'm watching TNS, how exactly do people just run under other people's air normals?

[slate mica]

Luna does it all the time here

[split grotto]

I just would always assume that since a run doesn't low profile you wouldn't be able to run under

But I suppose I'll try it next time I see the full jump instead of trying to anti air

[plush delta]

Also note that different characters have different run speeds and different sizes so some are easier than others

[split grotto]

I think both Yamazki and Shingo have slower run speeds

[plush delta]

There’s also setups where you run under to mix up the opponent. That is what Lou meant by what luna does

[split grotto]

I know about them, but I've only done it as Kukri

[plush delta]

I believe most air to airs where you hit the opponent as you’re on the way down and they’re going up will allow you to run under for the mix when they land

[lament mirage]

Correct

You can run in easy

[plush delta]

Luong can do this with her air wheel kick too

A good air to air that does this is usually a jC as that button hits high for most character which hits the opponent as they are above you

[lament mirage]

King j.B my beloved

[split grotto]

I want to watch more Lokof so I can steal more Yamazki stuff. He got like a whole confirm off of a 6B anti air in the corner.

Also anti air counters I suppose

Actually I take that back it's crazy just seeing counter jCD combos

[split grotto]

So I might be overthinking since I lost really hard to Rise yesterday. For anyone who has seen my main team. I wanted to ask what are the strengths of it. Just so I can I guess focus on that

[grim crypt]

I haven't played against your main so I can't really say but from a first glance it's ok

Yamazaki is by the best character on that team

[split grotto]

Allow me to ask, would there really be that large of a difference if I played like better characters?

[grim crypt]

Not really because you'd have to be confident and just as good with them as you are with Shingo and Joe for example

But in theory yeah better characters can really help sometimes

Some braindead characters like shermie can carry you really far (sorry Luna)

[split grotto]

I mean on my alt team. Rock does a LOT of work. But I just assumed because he's an aggressive Shoto not because he's particularly good

[grim crypt]

I wouldn't call rock a shoto personally

He's just really good at KOF

[split grotto]

Really?

I see that's how I was looking at him

I might make an "experimental" good team. Just have Yamazki and Rock. Then I gotta find another character

Thinking about I guess only about a few characters. Either Joe on point while he's not great, I can still play him pretty alright, Ramón because not gonna lie. I just like him a LOT. Or maybe just try Mai assuming it's not gonna take like 3 days to figure out the BNBs

[grim crypt]

Mai is pretty easy but she is a shadow of her former self imo

[grim crypt]

Characters like Rock,Slyvie and Iori are pretty similar

Sometimes they to have one thing that stands out that differentiates them

[split grotto]

Well I guess I'll put her on the back burner

[grim crypt]

I already told you my reasons why I don't she's that good

[split grotto]

I don't think I've ever noticed many similarities with Rock and Sylvie

Other than like, the fireball

[grim crypt]

Command grab similar ground fireball good jump cd

Their are a couple of things that make her better than rock but only slightly

[split grotto]

Fighting Sylvie I always thought she would like just rush in and do stuff that's plus on block/frame trapping. And then go for cross up with her j.C

And throw our her good air buttons

[grim crypt]

Yeah that's what sets her apart from rock lol

She has the same run speed as Iori and Heidern iirc

while rock is slightly slower than them

[split grotto]

I see, I dropped her for a bit since I can't do the offense nonsense that Sylvie does

[grim crypt]

Just keep offense simple with her

it doesn't seem like rocket science from my pov lol

[split grotto]

I still can't cross up, so that's a big reason

Or rather, I still don't know my jump arcs

[grim crypt]

Training mode will be your best friend with that

[magic harness]

LMFAO
I have Billy on my team to balance it

[magic harness]

Geese

[grim crypt]

Goose is pretty good

Goose and Rick Howard

[split grotto]

When I get home I'll give the character select another stare down

[grim crypt]

You might like one of the yashiro's Tyler

probably normal yashiro though

A lot more simpler

[split grotto]

Thinking about it a little bit harder. I can probably keep learning Isla and try to keep in that direction

[grim crypt]

Isla is also pretty good as well

[torpid quarry]

Normal yashiro is a great time

I dabble and idk shit about him

[plush delta]

I love the stray shot at @magic harness hehe

[grim crypt]

Clark still gets me more pissed that Shermie

But sometimes getting hit by that damn grab or cross up makes me question life sometimes

[plush delta]

Shermie was nerfed too

Her normals used to be even more unstoppable

[grim crypt]

Yeah and so was Krohnen and look what happened

[plush delta]

I’m hoping for a minor patch update after evo with the Najd release

[slate mica]

Decent j.CD

[plush delta]

Najd gonna be broken haha

[split grotto]

Before I start driving, are mid tiers really that different in KOF? Like this is an exaggerated comparison but like Kyo to Shingo.

[plush delta]

Hey you’re back!

[slate mica]

Done mourning, indeed.

[plush delta]

Kyo is like top 1 currently

[grim crypt]

Depends on the mid tier

[plush delta]

But at our level, it doesn’t matter too much honestly

[plush delta]

Welcome back buddy!

[grim crypt]

Yeah it's not like your entering in tns or anything tyler

And even then Smoke does really well with shun'ei on his team

[plush delta]

I say stick to who you’re comfortable with. It’s satisfying being loyal to your characters. Clark and Athena have been my mains since launch

[slate mica]

Speaking of, did you see Poshololo vs. Shadow King on the latest TNS? It was a mistake to have him enter RR

[plush delta]

No did posholo beat shadow king?

[slate mica]

Yes 😂

[plush delta]

@split grotto

[grim crypt]

YES I DID LMAO

[split grotto]

Right, I just thought I should always ask

[grim crypt]

I was gonna ping you about it but I forgot

[slate mica]

I laughed my ass off

[split grotto]

I get swept by Rise's Darli every time

[grim crypt]

I've lost to a team of Darl maxima and billy on rank before tyler it's alright

[plush delta]

But you can have fun with secondaries. KoF15 has too many fun characters so it’s fun learning all of them. You don’t always need to be in a serious mindset of just winning. Play casual games with secondaries

[grim crypt]

Lowkey I need a casual team

My only casual character is Elisabeth right now

[slate mica]

Krohnen, BM, and Luong

[plush delta]

Rise is a strong player and the current meta is a lot more balanced so low tiers aren’t really bad

[slate mica]

Or Betty over Luong

[grim crypt]

Maybe

[plush delta]

I’m learning Mary right now

[grim crypt]

Blue mary's buttons give me to much of a headache to play her sometimes

[slate mica]

From: Kim user

Ngl, making her 6A an optional 4A in combos was a lowkey huge QoL boost for her

[plush delta]

Happened with Meiten too

[slate mica]

This explains so much

[plush delta]

Which made him my main

[grim crypt]

Kim gives me headaches to lmao

[slate mica]

Fair

[plush delta]

Btw @slate mica besides luna, you should take Shermie tips from @long bolt

[grim crypt]

It's just Kim has the utility of ex dp while Mary is a ehh version of clark and O.yashiro

[plush delta]

I have no idea how he was able to do some of those Shermie grabs

Poli destroyed me the other day 0-10

[slate mica]

Hahah, surely. Trying to model my Shermie pressure after Reynald more, but always happy to learn new tricks of the trade

[plush delta]

Zero put up more of a fight

[grim crypt]

In a alternate universe someone like geese takes Kim's spot

[slate mica]

Sidenote, O Yash has some weird hitboxes on his buttons.

[grim crypt]

Yeah because I had to use Krohnen since I was having an off day with Heidern

[plush delta]

I see you are indeed learning o yash

[plush delta]

Even with your off day, you still did way better than me. I never threatened him at all

[slate mica]

https://youtu.be/S3E5jQRuqXk

Giving it a try

This is just working light pressure strings. The 2A xx 5A and 2B xx 5A are 3f links, so the timing gets a bit weird

[plush delta]

Watch how rino plays him and that grab leads to automatic unsealed super into mixup

[slate mica]

Everything is standard 200 bpm strings

[grim crypt]

The only thing that normal yashiro has over O.yashiro are easier hit confirms and better frame traps

But once O.yashiro starts grabbing shit changes lmao

[slate mica]

Yeah, I took some notes from El Rosa as well

[grim crypt]

Coach steve is anohter O.yashiro player you can to your list

[slate mica]

I love watching RINO work neutral

[plush delta]

Wow dude is studying

[grim crypt]

Lou putting in that work you love to see it

[plush delta]

A true student of the game

[grizzled heart]

El Rosa had an awesome Vice in 13 also

[slate mica]

Honestly, I just wanna stop thinking so damn much and just start learnin'

Hahahah

[slate mica]

Yeah, the 50/50 after a roll on the super

[plush delta]

If I can offer one advise with your playstyle, I think it would help a lot if you are more active with your offense instead of reactive and if you initiate more instead of waiting for the opponent. That’s just my take from watching your matches!

[slate mica]

Interesting. I'll take that into consideration

[plush delta]

Yeah just an observation from a mid level player

[slate mica]

Lately I feel like a big part is also when I'm on defense I tend to check hops too much and get blown up by jumps

I mean, Shermie/Dolores 2C aside

[slate mica]

But, yeah, I know Zero has also noted at times I don't cycle through my options as much as I can, and that's probably something which could help here as well

[grim crypt]

Not many O yash players know about when I've seen them in ranked or casual matches so it's good you learning that now

[slate mica]

Really?

[grim crypt]

Yeah

[slate mica]

That was like the first thing I learned, lmfao

[grim crypt]

They know about the cross up setup after super but they don't OS the command grab

So i just roll for free every time they do super unless I'm in the corner lmao

[slate mica]

Also, no one in Ranked uses the heavy confirm into Overhead grab combo either

[grim crypt]

That too

I maybe saw someone do that llike once

Most O.yashiro just do target combo into grab into super and call it a day

[slate mica]

And, honestly, the target combo has good reach

Leaves a ton of damage on the table tho

[grizzled heart]

If blocked you’re stupid minus on second hit too

[grim crypt]

Oh yeah O yashiro has some weird scaling when it comes to the run grab and target combo right?

[grizzled heart]

I think hcf d run grab is unscaled if you super after

B is scaled and is an actual grab, D version is a hit grab

[grim crypt]

Ahh ok

[grizzled heart]

Ex go thru projectile

Zooooooooom

I wanted to play him at one time

[grim crypt]

Did not know that

[grizzled heart]

Gonna try again maybe

[grim crypt]

nice to know then when it's o yash vs heidern then lmao

[grizzled heart]

I wonder if the b/d grab super goes over Heidern’s projectile

[grim crypt]

I think it does

He leaps pretty high

[grizzled heart]

https://tenor.com/view/kof-king-of-fighters-yashiro-orochi-blue-mary-gif-12426955

This abt to be me

[grim crypt]

I love her energy so much 😂

[grizzled heart]

She’s so sick

[grim crypt]

I remember a clip of her doing yashiro's victory scream

I need to find it again lmao

[slate mica]

It does! I'll get a video of it tonight.

[grim crypt]

https://tenor.com/view/nervous-sweating-sweating-bullets-sweating-gif-17507069

I've been watching a lot of madkof lately for his heidern gameplay but anytime I see geese I get more interested in picking him back up

Maybe I should

[grizzled heart]

Geese is so strong

[grim crypt]

The only thing I don't like about him is the run speed but his huge buttons make up for it

[magic harness]

I'm getting those quite a lot lately

[grim crypt]

And his fireballs are pretty good too

[magic harness]

YO
LOU IS BACK

[grizzled heart]

REPPUKEN

love luna

[magic harness]

🙂

[grizzled heart]

That’s my homie fr

[magic harness]

Hehe
Best homie here

[grim crypt]

It's nothing against you Luna I just can't stand shermie sometimes lmao

[slate mica]

O dat's me

[magic harness]

Lmao
I get it, I'm just joking with you
I can't stand your Heidern either

I might have to start spamming sweep...
Heard you like those

[grim crypt]

LMAOOO

[slate mica]

Just 2B xx 2D

Ez

[grim crypt]

Luna's villain arc continues

[magic harness]

LOLLLLL
I'm not that bad

[slate mica]

Mr. Owl sez: hold down-back to block 🦉

[magic harness]

Welcome back bro!

[magic harness]

That's not how it works in MK

[slate mica]

Ty!

[slate mica]

Mr. Owl sez: Guard Impact to parry 🦉

(Soul Calibur)

[magic harness]

Just Drive Impact it all

[slate mica]

Quite literally Mr. Owl

[magic harness]

Dino changed again

[grizzled heart]

Wtf they got an Owl in Soulcalibur

[slate mica]

Fun fact: he sparked up at the peak of the O RLY owl meme

[sinful herald]

Other way around for me because his damage is so bad getting grabbed is whatever. Shermie can land a couple pokes and get one grab into the rest of the life bar

[grim crypt]

Yeah I feel that

One scramble situationa and shermie gets like 50% out of nowhere

[magic harness]

Just...
Don't let me grab you

Lmfao

Jk jk

[sinful herald]

I keep hearing people say this but the more I play the less I agree. Top tier characters can carry an average player (no shade to them btw, I play Ken so I’m not immune to these allegations) against a player using a lower tier character

Take Kyo for example. 5CD is a ridiculous button, it not only allows him to steal turns back but he has one of the easiest corner carry conversions after. He literally has all of the tools how could he not be better than most of the cast?

Same thing with Iori. You can be outplaying the other guy, and all he needs is 2 bars and touch and it’s ggs

Remember how much everyone hated S1 Kula? Did it matter if her pilot was a pro player? I think when people say tier lists don’t matter they mean that when both players are the best of the best, it’s the deciding factor. Which is true

But to say (as an example) that Shingo vs Kyo is a non factor unless both players are pros doesn’t feel accurate to me @split grotto

[sinful herald]

Shun is secretly top 10, it’s just he’s not easy and I’ve been playing him for a year and a half now

lol I’m capping. I also pair him with really good characters so that helps a lot

[sinful herald]

I need to watch this match but I saw the score when I was in bracket. Can’t say I’m surprised, me and posholol play every so often and he’s damn good

I said that during RR when I saw him cooking with Yuri demon flip resets

[slate mica]

Yuri demon flip resets 😂

[sinful herald]

IYKYK 😭

[split grotto]

I should ask rather. What makes Kyo easier to play/better than Shingo

[sinful herald]

Have you tried Kyo?

[split grotto]

Umm, no

[sinful herald]

It would be easier for you to just do that then have me sit here and write stuff down

He makes the case better than I can

[split grotto]

I see, I only ask specifically because they have shared moves. Obviously with different properties and such so I thought that might've been an easy comparison

[sinful herald]

Better DP

Better rekkas

[grim crypt]

Have you've seen Kyo game play tyler lmao

[sinful herald]

Better CD

Better corner carry

[grim crypt]

Just go into training and do CD whiff C rekka

[sinful herald]

Better damage

[split grotto]

I have it's bodega, CD and jCD

[sinful herald]

Better cross ups

[grim crypt]

He's overall more consistent then shingo

Which isn't saying much since most characters are but still

[grim crypt]

I was his first victim

[sinful herald]

Oh snap dang. When he was in the chat and like, “Hey anyone can add me if they want” I did and he insta added me back

We played a couple days later and the only sets I won were when he tried picking my characters lol

When he had Krohnen etc it was jover

He’s always on too, really good training partner and seems like a good guy

[grim crypt]

Yeah he seems like a good guy even though he was a smurf in the rookie rumble lmao

[split grotto]

Why's Kyo have so many follow ups for these rekkas? And why are half of them half circles

[grim crypt]

Legacy thing

His rekkas have always been like this

[split grotto]

I see

Probably not comparable but this man has like straight up Terry's CD as his 5D?

[grim crypt]

His 5D is like Joe's

Space control

Anytime you see an extensive move list or ugly inputs it's most likely a legacy KOF thing

Like Iori's command grab for example

That input has always been like that since the beginning

[split grotto]

I see, I don't think I've ever seen like 5D used on TNS

[grim crypt]

Well because he has other good buttons as well

[split grotto]

Also his 5C being short ranged but advancing him forward is kinda neat

[grim crypt]

And rekka it's self is a poke

[split grotto]

Is that because it has good frame data or because it has follow-ups?

I mean it's probably both isn't

[grim crypt]

Yeah

Most characters can't push the initial part of rekka

It's -4

From personal experience Kim can ex dp punish A rekka if blocked

Which is why I value Kim a lot on my team for things like that

[sinful herald]

They can if they’re cornered but also don’t forget they have to gamble on Kyo not doing any follow ups. Shun can with far A but if Kyo gambled on rekka 2 guess who wins that interaction?

Unless like you mentioned invul reversal

Also Kyo’s cross up setups are stupid easy. Do a set number of blocked lights and a specific jump B and boom ambiguous cross up

I’d pick him up if I didn’t have EVO in 3 weeks

[split grotto]

I thought both Shingo and Kyo has the same jB and same 2A? You wouldn't happen to have a video would you?

I mean if not it's fine, I'll ask one of the Kyo players in here

[sinful herald]

I don’t think they have the same hop/jump arcs

Also not sure if the frame data is the same

Think about it for a moment

[grim crypt]

They just look similar because shingo is a fanboy

[sinful herald]

If Shingo was that close to Kyo we’d see a lot more of him on stream

[grim crypt]

They're frame data could be the same

[sinful herald]

I don’t have a video but there’s lots of stuff on the replay channel and TNS

[split grotto]

So Kyo's jB starts up 1 frame faster

Other both 2As are the exact same frame wise

[grim crypt]

Most 2As are 4 frames and plus on block

[split grotto]

Wait, sorry Shingo's jumping jB is the same. His hop jB is a frame slower

[sinful herald]

Compare their jump arcs walk speed etc

[grim crypt]

Shingo I know has slower run speed than Kyo

[split grotto]

At least walking, they feel pretty similar. But this man just feels kinda heavier but I don't really see a difference

I know for a fact Kyo just feels lighter and faster than Shingo but I just have no factual numbers for it

I'll keep an eye out for the Kyo crossup at least

And maybe they'll just buff Shingo like crazy

[grim crypt]

https://tenor.com/view/lmao-laughing-hysterically-gif-26398146

[split grotto]

Someone's gotta wish it into existence

[flint copper]

I tried it a couple of times but I fucked it up lol. I feel the need to come back to him now due to me not liking Goenitz's as whole as of late.

Too many issues arise when I have Goentiz compared to Kyo

Although I might use Goentiz in RR to try him out for a game and see where it goes

[split grotto]

I think he's really cool and does a lot of damage. But I don't know if that's enough for what seems like slow buttons

[slate mica]

https://youtu.be/1kSALn7Oocc

Did it a couple different ways here -- anticipatory, late, and when I see the Heidern rearing back.

[magic harness]

COOL

Fuck Heidern

Lol

[split grotto]

So I know these are 2 different counters. But when do you guys use the counter for Yamazki and Rock?

[torpid quarry]

Fuck shermie

[torpid quarry]

Off jumpins and short hop pressure

@snow beacon and @raven ridge smoke me with that

Like it’s extremely toxic that they don’t let me jump

It’s all I have

[split grotto]

I see, I didn't really think about it since like they have other tools for that. A snake arm for Yamazki and a fast 2B and a DP for rock

[raven ridge]

Yamazaki could be used more in neutral. It's longer and the recovery is hard to decipher

Use Rock's as a reversal/hard read

[torpid quarry]

Rocks dp is dogshit it’s death😂

Ask mac

He would try to anti air with it and die

[split grotto]

Really?

[torpid quarry]

Yeah you gotta really delay it

[split grotto]

Damn, that's super unfortunate

I mean I'll keep it in mind for sure

Also, snake arm is a physical move? I ask since I think zero countered it with a Geese parry and I was just confused

[torpid quarry]

Yeah it is

Geese Howardo hit you with “you a loser” then hit you for a nice 30% counter

Into “stand up! Die!”

[split grotto]

Wow, that's so depressing

[grim crypt]

Personally I wouldn't bother using they're counters

Both rock and yamazaki have fine anti air buttons as it is

[split grotto]

I am sending this to ask on a scale of 1-10 how useful is to like be able to do this

[long bolt]

The second part is a reset setup. It will work against those not paying attention.

Not something I would do.

[split grotto]

Well considering I always go for headbutt on wake-up, I'd think perhaps the that would work but that's fair.

[plush delta]

Resets are really strong. You should use it

[grim crypt]

Like a 2 or 3

You probably will catch people sleeping on the wheel with it

[split grotto]

In general that button QM combo catches people in neutral

Just walking back and forth then low

Ramón feels good I just need to learn a better way to do 2B 2A 623BD

That input just is really hard

[grim crypt]

Yeah I know rise fishes for it all the time

[magic harness]

Hm...
I'd say simplify it a bit
The reset is cool af, but can you land it in a real match?

[grim crypt]

Only one way for Tyler to find out lmao

[split grotto]

If I can land like 3 Joe combos on a character I can definitely do that

That combo is real easy in all honesty

The other way is just 2B 2A 5A QM and then the same thing

[slate mica]

What's the counterplay to someone who just jumps and uses lights? Shatter Strike callouts?

I just lost a Ranked match against a Mai due to that against someone who scrubbed me out with constant movement and autocombos

[lament mirage]

Lights? Maybe SS?

Longer/disjointed moves

[slate mica]

I tried hitting with anti-airs or longer pokes with Dolores, but just couldn't get the pressure off

[slate mica]

I guess Shatter Strike is the call, yeah

[lament mirage]

Wait, doesn't Dolores have an air GTA grab?

[slate mica]

Yeah, but it's really more for catching jumps. It's a 9f startup

[raven ridge]

@split grotto yeah Rock & Terry's DP are quite dogwater as AAs

Just use 2c (Rock) and 5a or SS (Terry)

[split grotto]

Oh okay

Didn't know that a DP could be bad as an anti air because of the air invul

[grim crypt]

I don't think terry's and rock's DPs are that bad

But yeah for a more reliable anti air 2C with rock is pretty good

It's like 4 or 5 frames or something like that

It's fast

[raven ridge]

They're hot garbage

You want the combo ender or interrupt a gap, sure by all means

As an AA? Just do the aforementioned

You'll get more bang for your buck

Safer, and you don't run the risk of a likely whiff/punish

Because lawd they recover so slow and you're essentially net negative. It's a soft reset if anything

[raven ridge]

The thing with Rock's is that only light DP is air invul, and it's very rare to get all 3 hits in. You're more likely to clip and reset, depending when and where you hit them with the DP, like I said earlier you're essentially net negative

Ex dp is the alternative but again, you want more bang, do EX counter because it's frame 1

[split grotto]

2C has gotten a trade very often from me

[raven ridge]

5d is better for the max distance hops & jumps

Max* is a loose term. You have some generous flexibility with it

[raven ridge]

You'd have to trial and error it, but I actually think 5a (even close) are very good hitboxes as AAs

2c is a narrow hitbox so if they try for the jump cross, 2c is viable there and definitely not DP

Too many times I've whiffed with it

Even in the corner

I hate their DP lmao

I can't stress that enough

[split grotto]

That's how I feel specifically about Shingo's DP

[sinful herald]

Like fadeaway lights or neutral jump? And are we talking full jumps or hops

[slate mica]

All of them tbh. And I think the big issue is I don't use a 5A at all this match.

Everything I try to check it's an AA or hard callout

Or I get beat with a hop-in vs. low

I'll upload the video shortly

https://youtu.be/Io8udpLhE_w

[slate mica]

I need to get that more worked into my gameplan

[grim crypt]

I haven't watched all of it yet Lou but to me (and thanks to his inputs) that guy was just playing like a nut LMAO

I will say against this kind of playstyle you just need to stay calm and let them kill themselves

They're gonna do something stupid

[grim crypt]

Like if you stayed like fullscreenish and played patiently you would gotten free anti airs

They were just jumping since you weren't willing to anti air his jumps

[sinful herald]

Ok admittedly I only watched like 20 seconds but he’s knowledge checking you, whether he knows it or not

2C or DP AA for starters but also trip guard 2B are the answers here

[slate mica]

Understood, y'all. I dunno why it's taking me so long to learn this anti-air defense

[grim crypt]

Maybe you try online training mode with someone Lou

Or make it a habit to look for jumps and hops

[slate mica]

Yeah, I mean like no judgement here. Just curiosity on why this mental block developed

https://youtu.be/7Gj8wqFH0TM

Like, here's me juggling a Goose last week when I get the right spacing

It's just a matter of what happens when that spacing is tighter. Like, a sense of when I'm supposed to look for defense rather than offense at Range 0-2.

Because rn, I'm just looking to start offense at that range. But so is the opponent

And we can't both be starting offense

So is it better to acquiesce and play defense until that opening's there (i.e. a checked hop, a high risk decision, my opponent's turn to end) rather than try to force my own offense?

Idk, maybe that's just too philosophical and has to do more with playing style

[raven ridge]

Niiiiice

Nah man, if it works like that, it works like that

[split grotto]

After relaxing and calming down. I just feel I need to learn how to adapt to playstyles way better than I do. It's one of the things I actively struggle with and makes me feel not as good as the game as some other people in my skill level. Like I can combo and I can mostly confirm. But like that's about it.b

[slate mica]

Admittedly, you get a LOT of weird playstyles thrown at ya in Ranked

[meager portal]

@rancid marlin Plz teach me K' boss man

[rancid marlin]

What do u already kno

[magic harness]

Go for K9
Much better

[meager portal]

I vaguely remember his trials, I know his ein trigger a bit, and I know his dp has a follow up😅

[magic harness]

DP spam ftw

[meager portal]

Booo

[rancid marlin]

Neither one of these characters can you “spam” DP. Try it with Krohnen n see what happen lol

[magic harness]

#JusticeforKrohnen

[rancid marlin]

Bro has like 100 frames of recovery on his DP

L Krohnen

[meager portal]

Fr

[rancid marlin]

But he is MUCH easier and does a lot of dmg has some insane normals

So he’s carried

[magic harness]

True...
Didn't use to be so bad before the nerfs

[rancid marlin]

I was exaggerating

[magic harness]

Still
I'm jk
K' is peak cool guy

[meager portal]

Nah, I was agreeing to L krohnen lmao

I'm not gonna deny tho, krohnen is cool asf

[magic harness]

Just too hard for me

I already have Angel and Billy to worry about...

[meager portal]

But alas, seeing like every pro play krohnen kinda burned me out on watching him cook

[rancid marlin]

Lol K bout just as overrated now too

Not everybody cook w him tho

So it’s a bit diff !

[magic harness]

You do

[meager portal]

Like, DAMN, bro is cookin. And then like 2 hours later he's still cookin and I check my watch cuz I got places to be

[rancid marlin]

Yea been playing K for a min now, I better !

[magic harness]

Yeah, Shermie is that one for me
And I still don't know all the resets and shit

[meager portal]

I mostly wanna play K' cuz he's super fun to play and requires me to move my hands quicker

[rancid marlin]

I will say @meager portal the way they designed Krohnen, Kula, and K they all have similar structure

There is a funny dynamic in the way a lot of characters play in this game

[meager portal]

Yeah, they all got the weird glove thing too

[rancid marlin]

K and Kroh are more similar than people think

In playstyle as well

[magic harness]

I'd like to see that
If you learn him like you learned BM, you'll cook

[meager portal]

Nests characters amiright

[rancid marlin]

@meager portal yeah bro learn to do 214BD(214)BD very fast

[magic harness]

Kula needs a followup for her DP

[rancid marlin]

Kula need a lotta shit

[magic harness]

Damage

[rancid marlin]

Give Kula a command grab

Like the old days

[meager portal]

Give Kula a full screen super

[rancid marlin]

I think her lvl 3

[meager portal]

And a double jump while we're at it

[magic harness]

Raging Demon Lv3

[rancid marlin]

That would be cool as hell

[magic harness]

Ice Cream Demon

[rancid marlin]

No pun intended

[meager portal]

Raging demon Kula lmfao

[rancid marlin]

Some her old supers were way cooler

[meager portal]

I have very good mental imaging, and that cracked me up

[rancid marlin]

She call up her gang and they jump you

[magic harness]

I remember that one!

Funny af to do that on Angel

Everyone there hates her
Lmfao

[rancid marlin]

Good she deserves it

For being so mean

Kula supremacy

[magic harness]

LOL
She's an asshole
But a cute one
I think it compensates

[rancid marlin]

@meager portal you know how to shoto ?

You play team FF so I assume yes

[meager portal]

Oh yeah, I was the most flow chart Ken ever in my super Turbo days

I can shoto😤

[rancid marlin]

@meager portal K the ein trigger only ones you really need in neutral are the fireball and the second shell the one where he kicks up. It’s to stop jump ins from them thinking you will fireball. Lotta ppl be scared to jump anyways. The lil forward A that reflect fireballs

The blackout teleport I don’t use it often, you’re entirely vulnerable. You can catch a few ppl sleeping but unless u wanna get punished be careful.

The punch forward is only for combos this shit is not safe unless you kinda space it out, but not worth going for in blockstring at all.

Stop hops with like 5A, and jumps you can far D or DP ofc. Watch out for cl.D when you are underneath a jumper, you will die. This applies to characters like Luong and Ryo as well. Air to air with literally jump A,B,D.

He’s like a shoto type character so just do that. But combos can get kinda crazy down the line

[magic harness]

Cl. D is standing low, right?

Kinda making me wanna play him...

[rancid marlin]

It’s a standing low like Kim and all them but not as broken as Luong and his

There are like specific jump in blockstring u have access to so command normal won’t whiff etc

Luong can just run up cl.D and do whatever tf

And hit you from across the screen

[magic harness]

Ahhhhhh
Got it

Luong "Close" D
Lmao

[rancid marlin]

I never was interested in her she’s one of the ones where I just don’t find her that fun or interesting. I’ll play her though if they give me her

[magic harness]

Imma be honest with you
Horni is the only reason why I really like her

[rancid marlin]

They took Kim out of the base roster for this!

[magic harness]

She betrayed Geese
The horni is her only forgiving feature

[magic harness]

Less clothes to program

Much easier
Lmao

No pants

[rancid marlin]

L game

[sinful herald]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Poir0_cdq_0&list=PL6Zpep0TMBYQltmphkT0s2O5d3I4al2c6&index=5&pp=iAQB

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_GycFmwDr6M&list=PL6Zpep0TMBYQltmphkT0s2O5d3I4al2c6&index=19&pp=iAQB

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b5M4Qxjan6A&list=PL6Zpep0TMBYQltmphkT0s2O5d3I4al2c6&index=12&pp=iAQB

[meager portal]

Damn, Samjam spittin

[sinful herald]

I haven’t watched the whole playlist yet but so fire it’s far

[split grotto]

https://vxtwitter.com/HenTy56/status/1681801011151740928?t=F7dQono7uoyxv-I_OMZwqQ&s=19

So I decided to try Leona on a whim

[meager portal]

Leona rocks

I can't click on the vid rn, but I'm gonna assume that you were cookin bro👍

[rancid marlin]

Wow

[split grotto]

She ain't that bad in all honesty

If I vibe with her neutral she could be added to the line up

Also screw those combos on the wiki, the ones I ended up doing are easier and seem to do more damage

[rancid marlin]

Yeah don’t rely on the wiki much for all the combos

May be outdated etc

[split grotto]

Like it's not needed for do the whole cl.D 1, 214 AC, 5A 5D, etc. Like you get more damage by not adding the extra hits

[split grotto]

Since I almost want to super fuck around and make a BM, Sylvie, Leona team

[rancid marlin]

Women

[warped pine]

https://tenor.com/view/daniel-greene-daniel-greene-for-the-love-of-fuck-for-the-love-gif-18704566

[split grotto]

I just like BM and Sylvie. I haven't played them in a while.

Ain't nothing better than breaking someone's arm

[split grotto]

Bout all of my teams are just dudes. So my one friend refuses to watch me

[rancid marlin]

What a mansogynist

[split grotto]

He just hates "Anime Boys"

[rancid marlin]

Well he hates me then

[slate mica]

You're Valvatorez. That's different.

[split grotto]

Or I'll replace Sylvie for Robert because I've been wanting to play Ryu without loading up SF6

[meager portal]

Why stop at just arms? Lmao

[sinful herald]

5CD

6B

[slate mica]

I haven't watched this one yet. Interesting.

[slate mica]

Starting to realize I may have an issue with always wanting to play close-quarters. I'm watching TNS now, and there are a lot of dash-blocking opportunities for baits, mix of neutral hops for creating and maintaining space, and back rolls from range 3+. And this isn't just from zoners -- it's also from O Yash, Krohnen, B Jenet, and Geese. I already know I can play Dolores at Range 2 with a degree of precision and control, so maybe I can focus on baiting my opponent into bad situations and taking advantage that way as well.

Is this an accurate way to interpret the situations, or are there other aspects to consider?

[magic harness]

You mean about spacing, right?
I might be wrong, but the way I see it, it's very char dependant
Every character has their "sweet spot" that you should try to always be in a match

In my case, for example
Angel is more of an up close char imo, I like to maintain myself always as close as possible, because it's the range where she can hit and then teleport, or hit and then low high mix up, or hit 2B, 2A, and either hop to continue pressure or attempt a nasty crossup

While O. Shermie I tend to want to stay either almost full screen for zoning with projectiles and orbs, or just into sweep range. Cuz in that position, while walking back and foward, the opponent is far enough for me to be able to react to either jump in or just run up with 2C, and if I hit 2D, I can cancel into 214D for pressure and mix ups. I can also send the close orb in that spacing to protect myself and maybe bait a jump or smt.

With Shermie, I like to maintain myself a bit closer than that.
Still far enough to be able to react to stuff, but a bit closer just so it's harder for them to react in case I try to run grab or side switch accel.
Also, it's good to keep in a distance where it's possible for me to abuse j. C crossup, as it's the biggest tool for starting the big combos
2C and 2D are still my go to buttons, even tho O. Shermie gets them better

Idk about all characters, but I think it all depends on how you play them and the strategy you're planning atm

Also, I think it's super important to know how to identify your opponent. If you see that they are comfortable mid range, you should try to get a bit closer or a bit further than their sweet spot.
This will usually throw them off a bit, but you have to know what can you do in either situation with your char

Billy at close range is just...
Not good.
So if my opponent is also comfortable mid range, I should try to be a bit further, not closer
And in case they get too close, or too far from me, I need to have a plan on how to get back to my comfortable range

[long bolt]

Shermer dominates the mid range game in my opinion.

[magic harness]

Yup
Both Shermies control the mid range really well

[sinful herald]

I would say that one takeaway from watching high level players is how they use movement to deceive and bait responses. For example run up > hop back B or D is a fairly common sequence

Even once they are in, they might not stay in if the situation isn’t in their favor or control. Some of this is character matchup and some is player MU

For your characters I’d be watching RINO, Shadow X, and Lacid for starters and also the KOF 15 replays channel both for ideas on how to play and also to see what opponents are doing in response

[sinful herald]

It’s a good playlist so far and yeah ai really like his style and approach to FG’s. Lately, watching him play ranked in SF 6 has been eye opening. The example he sets even while losing multiple sets in a row is admirable

Is he perfect? Of course not, but he gives his opponents props when they do something good and asks himself questions or says things out loud (“Hmm I don’t know how to punish that”) to remind himself of what he needs to figure out

[long bolt]

If you take your time to learn safe jumps with your favorite toon you will win 50% more often. This is a fact. Learn to prep crossups. Empty jumps and running throws. Takes time but God they will take you to victory a lot.

[split grotto]

Alright, if I can't learn how to press the offensive playing Leona it's gonna be really rough to improve on the "controlling the pace of the game" since I kinda play back normally

[magic harness]

She is a very good char to learn rushdown
You literally need to be up close at all times
2B, 2A, Hop
Walk back a bit and CD into 46D...
Always keep yourself in

[split grotto]

It's weird I understand rush down in SF and other fighting but I never feel comfortable being on top of people in KOF

Which I feel definitely is a large weakness of mine considering I don't play real zoners

Just weird shoto likes

[flint copper]

I think actively trying to stay out of throw range is one of the harder things in KOF

[split grotto]

Alright,forgive me for asking this since I've asked it before I think.

I'm watching TNS 62 and it's finals. The commenters say that Player X isn't doing anything wrong but Player Y is just out playing him. Isn't that an oxymoron?

[lament mirage]

No

[rancid marlin]

lol ur timing. I literally just loaded discord and saw this

your msg popped up as soon as I hopped in here

I thought about you though @lament mirage today I did

[lament mirage]

Cool

Good things, I hope?

[rancid marlin]

I think they meant like, player X is making proper decisions, but player Y's answers to said decisions were more applicable

[rancid marlin]

yeah about when u said something about cosplay waaaay long time ago but this is not for this chat

[slate mica]

It probably means Player X was playing a generally effective yet safe play style, but Player Y was making better judgement calls and playing a more effective style.

[split grotto]

Okay, the way I've always seen it is if someone is losing. They're doing something wrong

Unless it's like a very close game and someone just rolled the dice unfortunately

I have never considered it possible to lose without just making multiple mistakes

I'd like to ask if anyone would be up for watching said matches with me. But it's grand finals so it's a bit longer than a FT3

I think I learn well by hearing witnessing what people point out

[magic harness]

Sometimes your play style just gets countered without you actually making mistakes

It's like Lou said
Sometimes you do make the right decisions, play safe and all, but everything in the game has an answer. Everything. No matter what you do, there is a way to counter it.
So even if you play safe and make all the good decisions, if your opponent bets on the right counters, you'll lose

[rancid marlin]

idk but you can just post it

When were u tryna do that

u hosting a watch party or sum?

[split grotto]

I can when I get home and settled

Which will probably be in 10 to 20 minutes

Am I just supposed to just start a stream in watch party?

But this is the link

https://youtu.be/S8J09Xf9i6U?t=10338

[slate mica]

Prolly VC
I can't attend, but worth a shot

[split grotto]

I mean it's fine. I'll take any comments on the match in general. I understand that both of the players are very good

[rancid marlin]

U got discord on PC? got to use that and share your screen in the stream though yea

[split grotto]

Yeah I do, I just wanted to know which channel to start it in

[rancid marlin]

oh I didnt know there was one actually called watch party lol

[split grotto]

That's the reason I asked. Since I know this isn't just a KOF discord server

[rancid marlin]

if no one is there u should be good tbh just pick one thats empty

[split grotto]

Alright, I'll have it going soonish

[magic harness]

Fuck the GG people
This is our server now

Lmfao
Jk jk

[rancid marlin]

luna wild for that 1 lol

[split grotto]

So this man Ryo has only like 3 moves huh?

Tatsu DP and advancing hitbox

[grim crypt]

Weird way of saying fireball

[split grotto]

It ain't a fireball

[grim crypt]

It is

You just aren't using in a traditional sense

[split grotto]

I've never seen a fireball like that in my life. It seems more like a fat 5C

[grim crypt]

I present you Sakura's old fireball

***Capcom please add her or sagat in 6 please ***

[meager portal]

Yall want a really wacky fireball, look at Andy's old heavy fireball

[split grotto]

I got it, Ryo's fireball is just a B snake arm essentially

[split grotto]

I'm telling you, maybe because I haven't been playing fighting games for a long time. That just looks like a disjointed hitbox

[split grotto]

@rancid marlin looking back at the replays. Yeah I see the Shoto pressure on Ryo. But I just see Robert without a full screen fireball and more damage. Also I guess slower than Robert as well

[grizzled heart]

👆 he was forced to play a character without a full screen fireball

[split grotto]

I don't know how well I'd be able to do that. I'll without a doubt give him a try regardless. But I've only ever played Shotos with a full screen fireball

I don't know how I'm gonna adapt to not having one

[magic harness]

Ryo has to play mid to close range
Not exactly rushdown, but you want to be very neutral from kinda close to your opponent
And fish for his BIG damage combos

His heavy fireball is excellent after 2D to get closer and set up a meaty

[grizzled heart]

ryo not really a shoto anyway

[lament mirage]

Gasp

[grizzled heart]

is Benimaru a shoto

[lament mirage]

If Ryo isn't, then Benimaru definitely isn't

[rancid marlin]

I really wanted you to be able to go into training mode and slightly emulate what I did to keep you blocking. The close normals, the 2As, things like this. You don’t HAVE to play Ryo if you don’t want to. But like not having a fireball in KOF is not the end of the world. 8/10 u gonna be maneuvering past someone else fireball to punish them anyways. Ryo fireball is really ridiculous at times cause like bro can just autopilot his blockstring if you let him and you just gotta hold that. Also he has a parry. But when I picked Ryo way when I was trying to figure out the game, the handful of tools he does have definitely helped me learn a certain way to play this game

[split grotto]

Wait, I understand what he was doing. I do or at least try to do a lot of that except using a close normal on someone's else wake-up. Like I've done it all before but at least when I do it. It feels like it doesn't work on most people

[rancid marlin]

I would like for you practice some blockstrings, try them in match, and when they do not work, vary your approach and cycle your options

Cause you did stop me from just running up and doing whatever AT TIMES. So I tried something else. You can see it for yourself

I dropped combos and shit, but like did I stop my gameplan? Nah just gotta act like nobody saw that

[split grotto]

Gonna try and learn some combos on Ryo wish me luck

[rancid marlin]

eh he not that bad dude

Esp for you

[split grotto]

If King was cool I'd just run that team

[rancid marlin]

U might as well. King is just an icon. Plus you can take all your venom strike rage out on other ppl

[grizzled heart]

King goes hard

Easy character to play it seems like

[split grotto]

Geese is kinda cool, weird OTG input but otherwise seems fun.

[grizzled heart]

Geese stupid strong

[split grotto]

Allow me to ask a stupid question. Is Haohmaru a shoto? I'm looking at videos of Ryo but I noticed that Maru has a lot of damage, a fireball, a DP, and an advancing move. While having a reflect as well

[rancid marlin]

he's definitely that in Samsho standards yes