General chat won't allow this convo

[topaz shale]

.

@tacit karma @hallow marsh @azure night

Here

[hallow marsh]

Sure let's go what are we talking about again??

[topaz shale]

Where are the others

[hallow marsh]

Strike ig

That's why I told to stop dude

[topaz shale]

@red imp

[topaz shale]

Lol

[azure night]

Yeah

Anyway im dumb everyone is

[topaz shale]

So where were we?

@tacit karma

[hallow marsh]

I don't personally hate god but his Messenger are historical are frauds so i believe there's definitely a superior celestial entity out there but the conceptual idea of god is quite dead

[topaz shale]

[tacit karma]

hello

[topaz shale]

So God created the world and stepped aside?

[azure night]

Might be possible that there is god but no way in hell he is the absolute good

[topaz shale]

[topaz shale]

Welcome

[azure night]

To me its more logical God is a source of fear

[red imp]

I'm just here to know.. why science says how this created or how it formed.. but in our religious scripture our God tells us why.. why was this universe formed what's your purpose n all.. 😓

[tacit karma]

i was asking what have you understood while reading quran?

[azure night]

Oh that, yeah it had alot of good values bringing peace into your mind

Good spiritually

But

It had threats

[topaz shale]

Tbf scriptures also talk about the "how" vaguely sure but they do

[hallow marsh]

Yeah if not scientifically big bang is not possible cause and where it comes to current god as a concept is a fraud we should persuade our own morality to be live freely

[azure night]

If you dont do this, youd be punished in hell

Fear no respect

[tacit karma]

how many chapters have you read?

[azure night]

Plus what point in religious scriptures for me, id take em as a moral science book, not logical sci

[hallow marsh]

I highly with this you know power corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely

[azure night]

True

[hallow marsh]

Thank you someone gets it. Atheist??

[topaz shale]

I absolutely love Rabia al basri's answer to that she had a famous prayer that answers it beautifully
"If I worship You out of fear of Hell, burn me in Hell! If I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise! But if I worship You for Yourself alone, do not deny me Your everlasting Beauty"

[azure night]

Idr, my love, ig till a few hundred pages i cant remember complete surahs now

[tacit karma]

it can be true for us humans but the thing we cant comprehend god

[azure night]

Idt we can or anyone can convince you

You refuse to believe the faults in religion

[topaz shale]

Machiavelli

[azure night]

I dont blame you, you grew up that way surrounded by people compelling your mind into believing that

[hallow marsh]

We need to believe in everything what a man wrote to believe in whole concept of god so maybe man and god isn't that different

[topaz shale]

Religion has been used and will be used to controls people I think we all agree with that part

[tacit karma]

Our physical senses and our intellect can not comprehend God because He is "Subtler than the Subtle” and nothing is like Him.

[azure night]

Idt thats what religion wants, Quran threatened me more

[hallow marsh]

Sure i agree

[azure night]

I do too

[tacit karma]

same here

[azure night]

💀🙏🏼

[tacit karma]

nvm

[azure night]

Have you met this god?

Did God create everything?

[tacit karma]

are you from pak or ind

[azure night]

India

[hallow marsh]

Our physics solidified the light which seems impossible to think but i never heard god solidified any kind of light

[topaz shale]

Qur'an also says that on the day of judgment nobody will be wronged in the slightest, everything will be absolutely fair.

[tacit karma]

true

[azure night]

And did he mention what is "fair" Is god himself fair?

[hallow marsh]

Hell and heaven is a reward system to believe in morality which was important at that time

[azure night]

He made women physically weak than men didnt he?

[azure night]

Agreed

[hallow marsh]

Yup that's a fair question

[azure night]

Religion provides consciences to ppl who dont have it, specially in mid centuries

He made pain

He made evils

Then gets mad when we become evil

[topaz shale]

Nobody will be wronged.

[azure night]

He is hypocritical

[tacit karma]

For the one who believes, no proof is necessary, for those who disbelieve, no amount of proof is sufficient.
-Ignatius of Loyola

[topaz shale]

Yes he did and he made some people weaker than others too, some disabled some rich some poor.

[azure night]

Love, at least give one proof, at least one

[topaz shale]

You are allowed to question though

[azure night]

And why did he do that?

Why did he do smth so unfair?

[topaz shale]

Life is a test.
Different people are tested differently.

[hallow marsh]

That's dumb to believe in Allah we need to believe in the person who wrote the Quran so there's no point in arguing with the Quran verse

[azure night]

Thats hypocrisy

[azure night]

Are ya an Atheist?

[hallow marsh]

I have seen women being burned in the name of religion that's quite unholy right

[topaz shale]

Indeed that is one argument "the validity of the scripture itself" but for now I would like to keep the discussion as centred as possible so won't be talking about that

[hallow marsh]

Yeah I'm sorry if i offended you

[azure night]

The God didnt help then?

[azure night]

No i am an Atheist too

[topaz shale]

Going back to what I said before, "On the day of judgement everything will be fair" (fair in a divine objective sense not a subjective definition)

[red imp]

Life is a test 67:2 ... Day of judgment will settle justice 14:42...
Why test .. to see who among you are best in good deeds
😓

[azure night]

And i am sorry if i offend any religious person here, im just keeping my points

[azure night]

He is the one who created the best one and the worst one so are we all a plaything or whar?

[hallow marsh]

See there's no point i respect your god but I hereby don't bother to believe something blindly

[topaz shale]

Dw we good I have atheist friends

[topaz shale]

I never said to believe anything blindly

[tacit karma]

np

[hallow marsh]

Yup maybe god is truly dead according to Fredrick Nietzsche

[hallow marsh]

Sure I'm sorry

[tacit karma]

it wasnt literal.

[azure night]

Btw guys

[azure night]

We meant it metaphorically too

[hallow marsh]

No meaning is simple we need to persuade our own morality

[azure night]

I gtg have to do my bio assignments 🙏🏼

Soo tty all later byee

[hallow marsh]

Bye bye

[tacit karma]

just go and check dr zakir naik

[azure night]

🦋🎀

[tacit karma]

for any qs

[tacit karma]

peace

[azure night]

Idt we ever would agree to that topic but we can talk abt feminism and history

[red imp]

People are not play things ma'am.. they are responsible for their choices.. no one is bad with nature.. we are given free will... How we use it will justify our actions on day of judgment
(76:3)

[azure night]

And i dont like that Zakir Nayak guy he doesnt solve my dounts

Doubts

[hallow marsh]

Hypocrite actually his opinion are truly radical

No hate but

I don't like him

[azure night]

God writes everyone's destiny, they say, sire

[red imp]

Nahh.. he's khawarij... Don't believe whatever he says..

[topaz shale]

I would like to go back to kierkegaard here, believing is a leave of faith yes to an extent it is beyond reason.

[tacit karma]

until we meet again

peace.

[topaz shale]

All the best

Tc

[hallow marsh]

I have seen better preacher i k one from Maldives i don't remember His name

[topaz shale]

Funny how disagreeing with dr zakir naik is something most of us agree on

[hallow marsh]

To believe is a blind i approach, question makes society stronger

[topaz shale]

I mean I do like the guy but I don't share a lot of his views

[hallow marsh]

I believe God is dead doesn't necessarily means God is dead

I could be highly wrong

I could be right

[topaz shale]

I am huge fan of platonism so by extension mysticism in general so I can simply say reason isn't the only tool and mystical experiences are as valid as reason

[red imp]

Indeed ... First thing god created was pen .. command it to write.. god asked it to write what he already knew what we would choose from our free will..

[hallow marsh]

See you are extremely reasonable like no hate I have seen most muslim getting offended over these questions seems like a brain wash sometimes

[topaz shale]

How is free will compatible with determinism

[hallow marsh]

So other animals are just some unwanted creation why they don't have a fate or will

[topaz shale]

A lot of the times people tend to take me as being agnostic because of the language I use

[hallow marsh]

It's totally fine you are cool dude i like you

[topaz shale]

I am religious but using that language with someone who doesn't believe is a waste of time yk

[hallow marsh]

Well then i gotta go have fun guys

[topaz shale]

That's a mutual feeling

It was good talking to all of you people

Tc

[red imp]

fre will is compatible with determinism because gods decree includes your choices... He knows what you will do..bbut He does not force you...You are responsible for your intention and effort.. while Allah controls the circumstances and outcomes..

[topaz shale]

Not enough of an explanation,
Write an essay on this "How free will and determinism are compatible" the essay should be atleast 300 words

Take your time to think about it no rush

Just ping or DM me when done I will be waiting

[red imp]

Nah I'm done.. I see no outcome 😓

For I've different believes and morals..

God said in Qur’an 17:36 not to pursue what we have no knowledge of, and my Prophet said not to argue endlessly (Abi Dawud 4800). His words hold more value for me than continuing this debate..

And I'm not much of a scholar or knowledgeable individual 😓... Sorry for uneasiness I've caused...

[topaz shale]

I am not asking you to explain anything to anyone else but to yourself, to think instead of following.

It was never a debate to begin with imo

Just a discussion

People presenting their beliefs and arguments (I mean that too could be a definition of a debate in some terms ig)

[red imp]

Believes? Ehh dude like you see.. believes without proofs are just "opinions".. at least for me..

[topaz shale]

"proofs"
What kind of proofs, empirical? Logical?
Different definition innit

[red imp]

Empirical proofs you mean seeing God?
First I don't see the main core topic of this channel.. like all I came here for was just to see how you'll think.. without any evidence even u said quraan says about "how" ... No evidence of your belive or whatever you say.. I'm just amused but it..

That's why I stated above 👀 don't wanna continue this endless debate...

[topaz shale]

To me the evidence of life is empirical, the evidence of God is logical and the evidence of religion can be emotional/experiential/historic/logical.
Yes there was no core to this chat being created we were simply talking about random things and mods kicked us out lol

[topaz shale]

I am just saying we don't need to see everything as a debate where we have to win, the goal of any proper discussion should be that at the end all of the participants come out having a bit more knowledge about the other person's as well as their own opinions and beliefs

That being said it was a good discussion nonetheless

Take care brother