🗼final-restriction-release

[native ocean]

sakurako is always the main dps

[dense silo]

I tried her back in first blue set but couldn't do it, used ue40 sakurako, then this blue set I used ue30 utaha and comfy cleared f49

[native ocean]

that cuz we got nerfed Set since s2

[dense silo]

What did they Nerf?

[native ocean]

yea

[dense silo]

I mean what did they nerf exactly, set atk?

[native ocean]

HP

[dense silo]

dang

[native ocean]

the f50 has equal to f30 back then iirc

the % is different each floor

up to f84

[dense silo]

No wonder i was able to clear it so easily, a friend of mine is struggling with sakurako+nykayoko so I got confused what is going on

[dense silo]

I see

[native ocean]

if they do thing right and hab enough support, f50 can be beaten easily

just follow the pin guide

[dense silo]

I'll talk to him again and ask for a video ig

He was able to beat higher floor than me in S1 so must be some bad rotation ig

[native ocean]

the mistakes mostly, they spamming ex too much

need to rmb set has reduced ex dmg by 80%, so just do it when needed

[dense silo]

I thought it was 90% reduction

[native ocean]

80

[dense silo]

[lilac vessel]

whoa what the hell

okay am i losing my mind or did they nerf the SHIT outta Set?

i cant suddenly randomly be playing 100x better for no reason, its the same units i tried from before

[foggy wasp]

yea set hp got nerfed

[lilac vessel]

you think it was warranted?

he did seem really tough

[foggy wasp]

maybe
he's still tough after floor 84

[native ocean]

The reduce become less significant each floor anyway

On 84 it just like -2 mil

When 50 is reduced by like half

[lilac vessel]

it did suck not even being able to get the lv50 title so at least i can be satisfied with that now

[native ocean]

There is f50 title?

Didn't realize that

But anyway f50 is almost free

F50

[onyx salmon]

F80 cleared yay

[chrome parrot]

yeep its the title with 1 star

f100 title has 2 stars

[native ocean]

it comes naturally, never realize that

[granite snow]

Utaha robot has some nice boobs!

[indigo acorn]

Imagine f125 exist

[inland lava]

Is my UE40 Hanako enough to solo heal my team

I plan to replace atsuko in favor of d ako

[torpid basin]

UE40 yes, but probably not at those skills

well what floor are you think of?

[inland lava]

floor 74 blue

[torpid basin]

it probably is good enough

[inland lava]

It's that damage is my problem

cuz atsuko takes a slot

[torpid basin]

blue is a bit tougher on slots yea

what is your borrow?

[inland lava]

UE50 Sakurako

I'll share my team here

wait for a moment

oh yeah here's my team

I think I lack damage

[torpid basin]

oh d ako let

well

[inland lava]

I actually have her

[torpid basin]

it should be possible

just not built?

[inland lava]

it's just that I use atsuko instead of her since I worry that my hanako's heal is not enough

[inland lava]

M272

lvl 88

4*

[torpid basin]

that should be good enough for 74

have you tried just hanako heals?

[inland lava]

not yet in stage 74, but I noticed that her healing is strong enough most of the time

[torpid basin]

because there is the option of replace atsuko for d ako, repalce ako for kotama

and just keep himari as cost regen sub

[inland lava]

The issue here is the lack of damage I think, even in stage 64 only 15 seconds left for my time

[torpid basin]

kotama will also help your survivability with attack down

yea kotama can help

as she is an aoe buff

[inland lava]

Once I get s shiroko, I will change my specials to s shiroko, kotama, hanako and ny akari

[torpid basin]

oh I guess 3* s izuna is kinda rough

honestly in that case you can just wait

[inland lava]

and then replace atsuko with d ako

[torpid basin]

set refreshes near end of dec

[inland lava]

indeed, I plan to eligma her

but I think I'll just wait for red set instead, and for shiroko terror too

[torpid basin]

that's fair

S Izuna is a good enough unit for eligma, but if you don't mind waiting and missing out on some books now you can grab t shiroko and wipe blue set

[inland lava]

I'll try again after I get s shiroko and see if I can do better with my current setup

[static chasm]

I'm struggling a little bit with the healing situation on floor 90+

I've been using a 3* O.Shig, but I'm guesing I'm better off swapping to max Hanako at this point?

Well, almost max. I can make two of her skills 10 but not all three

Compared to the O.Shig

[humble trail]

M7M7 can do F100.

Hanako is stricter timing but better than 3star OShig

I done it on UE40 with BG2 M7M7

You also need to rotate from and to her very quickly in ATG3, I recommend looking up some homework

[static chasm]

Any recommendations for homework? I'm terrible at this raid as is so I don't mind putting in the effort

[humble trail]

Nekuro has huge playlists, but I personally just used CauseW's F100 S1 JP.

Did exact same for S3

I can find ya link if you need

https://youtu.be/ohCjO1m_kBA

[static chasm]

I just found it

does NY Akari star level matter at all?

[humble trail]

no 3star ok

[static chasm]

I have her but only 3* and I'm borrowing Sakurako bc mine is super bad

[humble trail]

I used 5777

3star

[static chasm]

Okay cool, mine is M77M but I'd be lying if I said I know how to use her optimally

That's what homework is for ig

[humble trail]

You want her on the field almost all the time tbh.

[static chasm]

The whole "10 students, 6 cards" thing is still hella overwhelming even at 1x

I know my rotation is more of an issue than my investment

[humble trail]

Buffing all strikers for atk and speed boosting Kokona procs

[humble trail]

Very true

Requires practice even with homework

[static chasm]

Outside of the vortex disregarding my healing that's my biggest issue by far

This was my floor 80 clear and Ako was dead like, a minute before I finished

And I was already suffering for heals as it was

[humble trail]

Even UE40 O.Shigure cannot solo F100. She needs like an Atsuko or a Kaede/shielder to help, but it's comfy.

Hanako can do F100 alone, but it's a much tighter thing.

[static chasm]

I do have UE50 Atsuko so ig I could copy homework that uses her

If I really needed it

[humble trail]

Well, there's a comp in blue where UE40 O.Shig can solo, but it's an omega dps, CUtaha/S.Izuna/Sakurako UE50 that kills at like 1:30 on F100.

Other than this exception she can't rlly solo F100.

[static chasm]

I got a Ue40 swizuna, and that's about it so yeah that ain't the one

[humble trail]

Yeah you need 3 of em. An Umika might also work instead of C.Utaha but idk.

[static chasm]

I have neither of those two

[humble trail]

Yeah I'd suggest the vast majority of ppl go with the standard strat of killing with like 5-20s left depending on investment/skill. I kill with like 8-10s left or something IIRC on blue.

[static chasm]

I miss Red

Red was fun

[humble trail]

It was def more musical

[static chasm]

Sure I have UE40 B.Yoshi but it was still a lot of fun

Okay here we go https://youtu.be/vzrFSj1NhOY?si=4PjW6nthmSwFDerM Nekuro Atsuko team that doesn't use santa serina

time to start studying

[sick tulip]

Since O.Shigure is a slow and steady healer, then the fast-hitting vortex and storm are probably her greatest healing challenges. So a triple-dps strategy is by and large aiming to kill at a time that circumvents this threat.

If I haven't inflated expectations too much, then T.Shiroko ought to play well into the same gameplan as well

[static chasm]

I was under the impression that Kuroko was incredibly strong for set

And just about everything else, of course

[humble trail]

I think so yes. Just using her instead of C.Utaha in that game plan likely works for F100.

[static chasm]

https://youtu.be/FMYkFY6ZDks?si=xd-RnPAi79rBJIKS I can't wait

It looks so funny

[humble trail]

Omg, immortal T.Shiroko finish rofl.

This guy does it better. B.Hoshi lmao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p89bxtRg3OY

[native ocean]

Bald MoonLight

[static pelican]

The shield meta floor 74

[obsidian cave]

F35 clear

[eternal cedar]

mfw i only now realized set reset lmao

just came in to ask "huh what's the meta for the upcoming set" then saw it was going for weeks already

no utaha spotted

damn was looking good until right now blind, guess i'll have to throw in a kaede for ez clear

[humble trail]

Sakurako scarcity alert!

Next week, Sakurako is a good unit on Blue INS Hovercraft.

It's likely that your assistants will vanish for a week (I will personally put mine up for raid instead of Set next week).

Sadly, I don't think you have time to do Set after the raid ends.

So, I recommend you do Set this week.

Upgrade your watches to T9 and do it this week / weekend.

Edit: Might also be true for S.Izuna.

[humble trail]

For those using my Sakurako, she's now T9 watch.
IIRC was a handful of people here.

[boreal atlas]

Already at almost 100k pyroxenes nice

[humble trail]

I'm bout to hopefully get S.Izuna/S.Chise in 200, but worst case it might be 400 .

Then it's S.Kanna + Fes.

Need a bit of luck for all this to turn out well lol.

[boreal atlas]

oh you want S.Kanna as well?

[humble trail]

It seemed that I needed her for a comfy Binah since I didn't have T.Yuuka to do a ~10m cleanup that S.Kanna-less teams seem to need.

Still, I'll research Binah Tor more before I pull the trigger.

[boreal atlas]

You can do two teams without S.Kanna for binah field torment

[humble trail]

Also my Akane is EX3, so she seemed destined to be replaced lol.

[boreal atlas]

ahh

understandable why

[uncut panther]

I forgot to do this mode for more than 2 weeks... just try stage 94 today...

[uncut lodge]

how much investment does s.shiroko need to one shot 70F red orb?

[native ocean]

Oh wait nvm

*3 should be doable based on Schale

U only need 117k dmg

[uncut lodge]

ok thanks

[uncut panther]

Alright, I don't know how I done it yesterday...

Does anyone have video f99 without s.Izuna?

[native ocean]

Have u check playlist?

But if u ever find T.Hasumi comp, make sure it's from s3. Cuz s1 bugged

[uncut panther]

Too much S.izuna on the video...

[native ocean]

Well can't be helped

try to search both f97 and 99

[uncut panther]

T.hasumi might good to check although I mainly use C.utaha and sakurako for AA

[native ocean]

since the diff is small, f97 should work in f99 with some adjustments or crit

[quiet yacht]

Trying without s.izuna & d.ako

[static chasm]

https://youtu.be/ACLm65F78h0?si=oPF3w82EklSBw27W found some fun homework

Almost identical investment to me except my tanks are better

This was floor 91 (as far as I needed to finish off Yuuka) but I'll probably try F99 with it tomorrow, didn't seem too bad, especially with all of T9 gear existing now

[vocal briar]

with T9 watch and acquiring a UE50 Sakurako, I think F102/103 is possible

also I didn't know that the medal for current blue Set and the medal for the previous blue Set is the same. I thought you get different medals for each Set's iteration lmao

[uncut panther]

Finally, I clear f99

No S.Izuna and S.Shiroko

And the timer really a close call...

[uncut panther]

Man... That was hard... I had a headache after the raid

[native ocean]

Take a break

[quaint sage]

f84

[static chasm]

I was correct, this was pretty easy

Having this much healing makes a world of difference, especially at 3atg

It does take 20% of my battery every run tho

[eternal cedar]

almost died on f99, i guess hanako woulda made this easier

maybe i don't bother with f100

[robust fjord]

ssg f103+ team

[opaque wagon]

I asked before for a strong Sakurako for FoS and added that to the EU Global thread but it got drowned out by more people adding their codes. I take it I can't repost so idk what to do

[native ocean]

sry, idk if EU

[mighty pebble]

This set feels a lot easier
What's the difference between the first blue and this one again?

[native ocean]

t9 3rd slot

nerfed up to f84

U have time to whel more

[mighty pebble]

Oh right prob should've given Utaha t9 watch

Ty

[vocal briar]

oh man

[vocal briar]

nvm I got it a few retries later
f103 clear, let's go!!!!

I realized that the Sakurako that I borrowed doesn't have t9 watch so I might be able to get f104 (or f105 if I'm a bit ambitious lol)

[humble trail]

[uncut lodge]

welp, forgot to screencap, but I finally beat 74f

I'll try 75F when I manage to max kotama's ex

and give o.shigure and hanako t9 gear

t.hasumi is not half bad as a secondary dps if you can nail down the rotation and properly buff her

[heavy edge]

Wait when does the set leave for this phase? Need to do it before that

[uncut panther]

We still have 1 week for blue Set

[terse oriole]

@mellow walrus after 57 years

[mellow walrus]

damn daz lucky

but why here?

[terse oriole]

why am i here

lmao

i just realised my message wasnt in ba general

[mellow walrus]

lol

[uncut panther]

Lol, you should post it in ba-general or flex archive

(I just really want use this sticker for once)

[solid tangle]

Can currently clear 65 with this team. Any suggestions on how to change it up to push further, or do I just need to practise more?

[native ocean]

Try use Kotama instead of Iroha

And borrow Sakurako instead of S.Izuna

Also someone else instead of T.Yuuka

[solid tangle]

How much investment does Kotama need? Is just max in First and last skill fine with everything else uninvested?

I use T Yuuka to keep everyone alive since the burst set does actually outdamages O Shigure heal

[native ocean]

yea, her basic and enhance can be lv1

since useless enhance, and basic lvl only increase her own dmg

[sick tulip]

I snuck in a F104 clear before the season turns over. This will be the limit for me this month, as I don’t intend to spend the time needed for the next floor, assuming it’s possible for me.

This line from Plana also always makes me smile for some reason.

When she says it, I somehow get the sense that she’s a bit happier than usual, so then I’m happy too!

Also it looks like they updated localisation on her other line, so she now refers to “Process Perez Uzza”. I’m sure that on launch she said something else which made a little less sense.

[lyric atlas]

First content where Plana actually in charge, pretty cute ngl

[robust fjord]

If u stare #🔰gameplay-help enough u will get the chance to use em often

[uncut panther]

Can't compete against whale veteran in term of knowledge

So I rarely go there

[fast saffron]

that doesn't stop 2 week old players from trying to correct veterans

[robust fjord]

I see an 1 week old players doing that too

[crisp shale]

Wheew f99 clear

[vapid relic]

anyone got ue50 sakurako on asia?

[vestal nebula]

Is this a decent team for fury of set? (Unlike raid, this mode confused me the most)

[native ocean]

This mode is pretty simple

U deal dmg, it get killed

It just reduce 80% of EX, so u prefer AA

Read pin, that's all

[native ocean]

Borrow Sakurako should be better

U40 enough

Also u will prefer to keep dps on left slot, because right slot mostly will get debuffed atk/dmg by 50%

Rather than Iroha, place a C.Dmg/Aspd sub instead, since NyFuuka also has same sub

[vestal nebula]

Got it

~~wait, is it their left or my left? ~~

[native ocean]

Your left

[vestal nebula]

Ah got it

[native ocean]

Slot 1-4

[vestal nebula]

Noted

[native ocean]

What floor do u aim?

[vestal nebula]

49 for now

Just finished floor 20+, sorry for the late reply

And my sakurako borrow is exhausted for today, i will continue this tomorrow

Thank you nekuro, i will try my best

[robust fjord]

HINWAH

[vestal nebula]

yes?

[robust fjord]

Nothing

I missed u man

[vestal nebula]

i missed u too

now go away 🤼‍♂️

imma malding in fury set

[robust fjord]

Wtf 🫄

[chrome chasm]

Whel

🤼‍♂️

[native ocean]

what type of chat is this..

[regal arrow]

guys is 3* sizuna can survive or strong enough to f75 upper?

finally i got her on this banner

[native ocean]

U can try

[half atlas]

🫃chat

[uncut lodge]

tfw you are literally 1 purple artifact away from max kotama ex and it didn't show up for weeks

[spark epoch]

~~Nevermind! Red Set F99 was clearable with a EX4 sub7 Kotama. ~~

[uncut lodge]

I don't have any decent secondary dps besides t.hasumi, so have to make up for it somewhere else

[native ocean]

the option are pretty much those

i haven't update the right one so it still old data

[uncut lodge]

yea, no s.izuna, no umika, no sakurako, no ny.akari. c.utaha is 3* unbuilt.
so t.hasumi is the only option

good news is I have both hanako and o.shigure built-ish. so survival is not a big problem

[kind jackal]

Guys if you are on global and you have ue 50 sakurako please add me

Or ue 40

[sick thorn]

try finding in #1108594770332373143

[kind jackal]

Yeah did that too ty

[sly glade]

is it more important to borrow d.ako or s.izuna

[native ocean]

S.Izuna and try like Xerina

or B.Kazusa

[sly glade]

no b.kazuda 😭

[native ocean]

just slot something then

[sly glade]

is sayane just a crit slave? or is she actually relevant

[native ocean]

just sub

[sly glade]

vs bakane for mystic up

[native ocean]

u get it wrong

[sly glade]

explain

[native ocean]

B.Akane is Atk for mystic unit

which mean same sub such as Kotama etc

[sly glade]

oh, right. totally read that wrong

[uncut lodge]

finally, 75F

though I doubt I can push much further without major investment since I only had 7 sec left

[spark epoch]

NY Kayoko-less F86

[uneven belfry]

Finished at 101. Gonna wait till an upcoming unit trivializes said content

[timid gale]

Tried Set again today (lvl 54)
Highest floor (no assistant) was 12
Am I gmi?

[uncut lodge]

set is end game content, don't sweat it until you at least get to lv90

[sly glade]

how high's your hasumi?

[uncut lodge]

ue50 mmmm 999

[sly glade]

that's so much investmenttttt

[uncut lodge]

yea I don't have any other decent blue dps, so I have to go all in and make do...

[sly glade]

hanako and shigure, that's a lot of healing

[merry thunder]

for thasumi its free

[uncut lodge]

free ue50 yes, but the skill and gears are not :V

[sly glade]

I think ill just give up on this set. wait out for terror

[native ocean]

[split minnow]

What is this subskill malding with Kokona man

This is out of a Hannah Barbera caricature

How did I do this on red Set

[native ocean]

Just don't mald it

[late lily]

Where can I find hw for floor 75+?

Hmm. I’ll try this first: https://youtu.be/Mn8Z0Cx_YZU?si=aaLo-VnqXLGkS-am

[native ocean]

#1286349517846741122

There should be playlist pinned

[sour garden]

Thats pretty close

Applying buffs on a phone is so bad lol

How do people even play this game without an emulator

[merry thunder]

special levels matter a lot for set

as well as hairpins etc

you are griefing urself hard

[uncut panther]

By having special relationship with restart button...

Not only I need to precisely position the buff, by doing that it takes some milliseconds which is very crucial at the last 2 minutes

[wide orbit]

is hanako ue40 lv25 healing max gears enough for 100+, or i have to use O Shigure?

[uncut panther]

Nope, even my ue50 lv90 hanako have a hard time in f99

[lone girder]

that's just timing issue. plenty of f100 clears with solo hanako

[native ocean]

I think i might consider adding GLB vid for s5

So i can totally remove s1

[uncut panther]

Yeah, it's timing issue in my case (because I use phone), but it clearly answer the question that lv25 hanako is not enough

[lone girder]

lv25 healing

pretty sure he just mistyped

[uncut panther]

You mean like bond 25? Well if that's the case then maybe... Depend on the team comp

[merry thunder]

lb25 not lv25

keys right next to each other use some common sense

[lone girder]

[uncut panther]

Some people ask ridiculous questions so, can't ignore that 1 letter mistake

[hushed sentinel]

Level 25 limit break healing

[uncut panther]

[lone girder]

lv25 hanako won't even have her 3rd slot

[hushed sentinel]

It literally say lv 25 ingame too

[cunning linden]

they also said max gears

[uncut panther]

Yeah I'm wrong, now answer his question, I didn't have s.izuna, o.shigure, nor sshiroko, so I can't really give a very precise answer

[uncut panther]

Not having sshiroko and sizuna really took a toll in my cost management, and it is really hard to manage it when entering 1:30, so I won't be able give a complete right answer.

But I can say that in 1:40 timer, your students most likely died if the hp below half. So the answer is if you also have S.Izuna or S.Shiroko, then Hanako is definitely enough for f100+

[wide orbit]

i probably need ue30 NY Kayoko and D Ako for 100+ though

a lucky crit can oneshot them both

[spark epoch]

O. Shigure requires a shielder or another healer like Hanako to be able to sustain the team on F100. A well-built Hanako should be able to solo-heal but requires very precise timing.

[spark epoch]

A 4-star D. Ako was sufficient on F100 in my red Set run.
D. Ako has a lot of HP. If she can't survive, then very likely your DPS can't survive, either.

[mystic stone]

i'm chilling at 74

[split minnow]

Finally.. it is done

UE40 Sakurako can make it, albeit barely

[sour garden]

Clear is a clear

[maiden sparrow]

What floor

[sour garden]

doesn't it say floor 65

[maiden sparrow]

I am blind

Sorry about that

[sour garden]

I wonder if oshiggy and hanako can be used together. Probably with dps loss due to losing smimori

oh wait i didn't realise i still have ex4 kotama

[native ocean]

Yes

Yes as for u can use both together

[sour garden]

Still some headroom, maybe I can do 74

[merry slate]

Guys until when is the current Final Restriction? I forgor

[eternal cedar]

time is in channel description

[uncut panther]

Next week

[wide orbit]

Floor 106 is truly whale strat 😳

[native ocean]

Floor 100+ is straight whel

[inland lava]

what's impressive is that you managed to beat this without ny akari

my izuna is 3* too

congrats!

[sour garden]

s.mimori is a little bit aspd buff though

[night kiln]

blue set is easier than red set. True or False

[uneven belfry]

false for now

[native ocean]

Either is hard for me

[hushed sentinel]

For me red is easier for now

[night kiln]

for me, red set needs precise timing with hanako

but blue set I just random activate all buffs when acari runs out

and oshigure

but red set I gotta keep track of every 30s interval and play to the tee

[dawn violet]

Are you from eu?

[sour garden]

[dawn violet]

Is the sakurako yours?

[sour garden]

Borrow

[dawn violet]

From who?

Hope it's not joe cuz I'm too lazy to ask him to add me

[lyric atlas]

Nice, probably stop at 95

[oblique sparrow]

Game crashed while I was tryna clear floor 50

There we go, maybe someday when I can build my sakurako or izuna I'll go higher

[merry thunder]

erm are you spamming wakamo ex

[oblique sparrow]

I was letting it pop

But yeah I used it a lot.

I know Set doesn't take much damage from EX skills but my strongest blue unit is Wakamo whose damage is largely built into her EX anyway, and even when I borrow someone like Sakurako, I think my Wakamo still outdamages her

[merry thunder]

maybe if you borrow some 3star 3444 sakurako

[oblique sparrow]

I don't rember now, I only had one UE50 Sakurako to borrow.

can try again after the reset

[uncut lodge]

sakurako can singlehandedly carry you to 60F+

[sour garden]

from my club

[oblique sparrow]

Okays

[dawn violet]

Ah, a shame

[quiet yacht]

Izuna low build, Finished floor 97

[uncut lodge]

too bad I'm barely going to save enough pyro for fes.
have to skip s.izuna again

[timid gale]

F in the chat

F

[sour garden]

[sour garden]

74 done, without casualties this time

[split minnow]

Finally. This story is over

Now time to worry for Chokmah

[uncut panther]

Failed again

[split minnow]

Wish I had nyAkari. I'm sure she makes Set a breeze..

[slate junco]

Here I am, thinking if I had S. Izuna or Kokona

[hybrid root]

what does she replace in this team?

also, sakurako suddenly had a glowup lol

[split minnow]

nyAkari? Replaces sAyane since she's there as statstick

[hybrid root]

oh true, you got s Ayane there

[split minnow]

sIzuna luckily is on rate up. Highly recommended. She's good for raids like Goz, too

[hybrid root]

didnt notice her

got sIzuna just as i was starting

big stonks there

[split minnow]

Nice

[hybrid root]

[modest patrol]

any1 know how to do floor 74 without ny akari

[native ocean]

Maybe check the playlist on #1286349517846741122

normally u just put a sub slave there

[modest patrol]

thx

[late lily]

rekt. Rip 3* healer and shielder

[wide orbit]

My 3* maxed Kayoko keeps dying to the final explosive attack at floor 100

Don't know what stat to raise anymore

[sick tulip]

At that point, it's probably stat transfer from special students.

Slot 2 gear, and if needed, Slot 1 then even 3.

If it's only NY.Kayoko, then heal with Kokona in mid-attack.

Somewhere around 0:41.733 on the battle timer is usually a good moment to release the EX.

Oh, and if there is healing to spare on the Lightning Cage beforehand, there are ideas to delay basic skills from Kotama or NY.Akari to get better coverage over the Spear instead.

[static chasm]

What's the minimum floor needed to max talent assuming you have no leftovers? I think I saw someone say 97 somewhere but I ain't confident about that one

[native ocean]

ye, 97

99 is for gift, since it also like 2m hp difference which shouln't that big deal

[static chasm]

I'm more confident in red set than I am blue anyway

So it's fine either way

I'm just gonna slam 97 first then I can go from there

[sly glade]

trying to get 74 done. is it better to bring ue50 thasumi or 3 star umika

[native ocean]

goodluck

[hushed hatch]

So, i just finished level 24
Was wondering, do we need to keep healing those two towers?

[static chasm]

You pretty much only ever need to heal the left one

Take a peek at this, it still holds up

[hushed hatch]

I see

Alrighty then, thanks

So, what dps are good on this boss rn?

[static chasm]

Blue set? Sakurako>C.Utaha>everybody else iirc

[hushed hatch]

Not that much stuff on blue

[oblique sparrow]

Well the picture certainly changed at f60 lol

[hushed hatch]

Best i can do is borrow someone else's

[oblique sparrow]

How much better is hot springs shigure compared to hanako?

[static chasm]

Izuna is solid too until set starts having an attack type

[hushed hatch]

Oh wait, so that's why the band group girls are so good at this boss
Set has an EX skill dmg reduction

[static chasm]

That depends on investment, if oshig is 3* then a ue30 or higher hanako is better

But at equal invest oshig wins

[hushed hatch]

[static chasm]

Yeah you pretty much only want to AA

[hushed hatch]

I've only been spamming EX skills like a maniac

[static chasm]

B.Yoshi does things

[hushed hatch]

Well this is pretty much all i have

[static chasm]

This was only floor, what, 80 I think?

I forget

It's been a while

[hushed hatch]

Utaha is like low level and i ran out of those level ups

[static chasm]

Borrowing a dps for set is fine, I have to steal a Sakurako for blue too

[hushed hatch]

Also, the OG Izuna is probably the best for this right?

[static chasm]

But Izuna is super good early on, yeah

She has bad armour when you get to higher floors and set has a damage type

[oblique sparrow]

I believe my Hanako is UE50 while my alcoholic is like 3* lv1 lol

[hushed hatch]

I hate Blue element bosses, i keep forgetting to build that element

[static chasm]

But initially (sub floor 50 iirc) Izuna is good

[hushed hatch]

Just bring them both tbh

[static chasm]

I had the same issue

[hushed hatch]

With fish Shiroko and NY Haruka
Those skill points gonna charge a lot

[static chasm]

NY Haruka and Iwak's subskills don't stack btw, same case with Himari and Kisaki

You only benefit from having one

Same applies to all similar subskills on special units iirc

[oblique sparrow]

lol nvm my Hanako is kinda sad, but hsShigure is definitely sadder

[static chasm]

You're not far off

[oblique sparrow]

I'm asking for academic reasons I don't have enough blue DPS built to bring, just Wakamo

Izuna is like 4* or something

[static chasm]

Realistically Sakurako can solo dps so long as you have the right buffers

You just need someone to pop red orb, ideally swizuna, but Iwak can do it too

Wakamo is a little expensive but it'd probably work ig

[hushed hatch]

They don't?

[oblique sparrow]

I've been popping it with Iwak yeah

[static chasm]

Unfortunately not

[hushed hatch]

But it feels so much faster with them both

Welp

At least i can squeeze in an attack buffer

Or any buffer

[static chasm]

Yeah it's something that's never actually mentioned anywhere but if both of your specials have the same sub you're wasting one of them bc only one applies

[static chasm]

Or all four of them if you're doing set

[hushed hatch]

Hate that

[static chasm]

Finding a balance is pretty hard which is why you end up with special setups that look like this sometimes

Floor 99 was fun

[lyric atlas]

ah

[static chasm]

Vortex?

It do that

[lyric atlas]

from full hp to 0 if not hanako in time ye

[static chasm]

You got Atsuko?

[lyric atlas]

Ye, but unbuilt

I think I will just wait for kuroko

[static chasm]

That's fair

Atsuko hard carried me through Vortex when I was suffering

[oblique sparrow]

My phone is struggling badly with Set tbh

I probably need an upgrade lol

[static chasm]

Admittedly mine is a monster

[native ocean]

Wao, max

[static chasm]

She spooks a lot

I was not complaining

[oblique sparrow]

I have mostly been spooked by NYKayoko

[sour garden]

Big ded

my hanako ex3 can't cope

[sour garden]

[sick tulip]

As tempting as it may be, keep in mind that Set investments have some of the worst ROI in the game.

At the same time, a shortage of healing is one of the few aspects that won’t be addressed by the Kuroko debut…

[humble trail]

[sour garden]

eh still higher than pvp

[humble trail]

Everyone I've invested for Set has been useful to me in Torment, except B.Kazusa.

I haven't invested B.Yoshimi, she's my borrow.

Hanako is not that useful if you get O.Shigure ofc.

Still, the core students are super meta, like Atsuko, O.Shig, S.Shiroko, S.Hoshino, Kokona, S.Izuna and Ny.Kayoko.

D.Ako is used in raids.

The least versatile I'd say are Sakurako, B.Kazusa, B.Yoshimi and Ny.Akari, but Even Sakurako helped me on Blue Hiero Tor.

Most of the rest are very useful out of Set.

[sour garden]

I need to max hanako to proceed further

Who can I replace with Atsuko here?

[humble trail]

People run her over S.Hoshino on blue, IIRC.

[sick tulip]

That's fair. But to me this perspective more closely represents a raid investment that is useful in Set, as opposed to the other way around. And that is the prudent way to do things, in my view.

[sour garden]

I might survive in 84 but not sure if I have the damage

[sick tulip]

Is F80 a level increase?

F80 could be tried first if so

[humble trail]

[late lily]

[split minnow]

Until limit break becomes a make or break investment for raids and the tower starts offering pyroxenes as rewards at certain levels

It's been just a year since the tower game mode got introduced

Give it time

[static chasm]

Imagine first time bonuses as good as pvp but for set

[split minnow]

We're already seeing some effects from limit break already, specifically Hieronymus

With limit break, Kokona can bypass the lantern's debuff when certain criteria is met, allowing for speedruns

[static chasm]

Yeah I did that one myself, brute forcing lantern was great

[sick tulip]

Feels to me like the jury is still out on whether LB materials are a good idea or not.

There is some curious effect that makes them seem less exclusive than some other resources, like blank eligma, though I don't know if everybody feels this way.

[static chasm]

I'd rather they have just given us UE70 instead

But at least we get some character improvement beyond level 90

I'll take what I can get

[sick tulip]

Eligma is scarce enough right now that UE70 sounds kind of terrifying...

Unless it's cosmetic or something

[static chasm]

Then they should make Set drop boatloads of eligma

Use it to either catch others up or juice the important ones

[sick tulip]

A large eligma payout might immediately turn FRR raids into the most rewarding content of them all.

[static chasm]

Better than current where most people ignore them

[sick tulip]

The vision for Set seemed to be for it to be as optional as possible.

[static chasm]

Like, don't get me wrong set is fun, but it could definitely be implemented better

[sick tulip]

Mandatory FRR raids seem like they would become an unnecessary chore

It is not a good fit for content which was already designed with inaccessibility and fundamental incompleteness in mind

[static chasm]

Eh ig

I just feel like there should definitely be better rewards from it

Considering how hard it can be

Like at least increase the amount of books you get as you climb to actually give incentive to reach the higher floors

[sick tulip]

I think the target audience of Limit Break Raids may not have needed even the incentive that already exists, let alone more, though it is hard to say.

[static chasm]

It just feels so lacklustre, like what's the point in bothering to go past F97 when you get, what, a title for floor 100

Give us a 10 roll or 30 of each book or something for beating F100

[sick tulip]

As advertised, high floors are stated to be a place to go looking for a gameplay challenge

Whether the rewards associated with it are of a concern to the players that this speaks to is in some ways an independent question...

But I sometimes wonder whether the exact design of the rewards, specifically the Limit Break materials, attracts the attention of players who may fundamentally dislike the nature of this kind of challenge content.

Is that inevitable though? Is there another reward that would not do this? Or is the only alternative to have no material reward whatsoever?

[static chasm]

I doubt it, wouldn't be surprised if most people just turned their brain off and autocleared up to floor 49 without looking

Do that twice and boom you have a maxed student

Might take twice as long, but it takes at most 15 minutes and you're out

[torpid basin]

I would say it's unlikely since the boost is very small

it's like complaining about how B50 gives stats

[sick tulip]

One hypothesis I have is that the negligibility of the stat boost is too incomprehensible to allay people's fears.

[static chasm]

Good ol fomo

That's how they get ya

[torpid basin]

well then they are either very gameplay focused or someone who will just burn themselves out of stress

[sick tulip]

The assessment of an additional upgrade system is an additional complexity of understanding that's too much of a hassle to interpret accurately. So they'd rather just get things maxed out in order to ensure they have the luxury to put it out of mind.

Because a remarkable amount of discourse around the raid concerns reaching the reward breakpoints.

[torpid basin]

discourse of top strats*

you don't need them for a clear, but we also don't talk about "just" clears

well not at this point

[sick tulip]

In a sense, the FRR raid cannot be cleared by design.

There is only the current floor, the floor above, and below.

[torpid basin]

certainly 100+ yea

[sick tulip]

Something we could muse over would be how much of the attention on F100 might change if the achievement title were rewarded at F101 instead.

Or what if the last Limit Break material were offered at F96 instead of 97?

[torpid basin]

that wouldn't change much

it would be ever so slightly easier

[sick tulip]

From my perspective, the reward structure is independent of the gameplay, at least with respect to how the difficulty levels are enumerated.

In theory, anyway

In contrast to the idea that Limit Break materials can be done away with, there's an alternative suggesting to have them offered on every single floor, with no maximum.

Hard for me to say whether this reduces the latent pressure to acquire these rewards, or if it increases it.

[subtle ridge]

did it work?

[merry thunder]

yes

[static chasm]

Why is shadow the hedgehog walking on Ako's face

I need to go to bed

[merry thunder]

Why is a ghost floating on niyaniyan

[sick thorn]

how do u do a silent msg

[static chasm]

It's me, I'm the ghost

[merry thunder]

@ silent

but remive that space

[sick thorn]

ohhh

[merry thunder]

heh

[sick thorn]

e

[torpid basin]

this was rough

time to retire both s izuna and c utaha for kuroko

most expensive set yet

UE40 S Izuna, UE30 C Utaha, UE30 NY Kayoko

[sour garden]

kuroko as solo dps?

[lyric atlas]

Still need someone to pop the red orb

So s izuna as well

Some people run both b hoshi and kuroko

[sour garden]

need sizuna ex5 to pop orb

[static chasm]

Even if you rotate NY Kayoko onto her?

[native ocean]

U can also use such as t.hasumi or s.rocco

[humble trail]

FRR's format of giving you a month to clear your highest floor is literally the least stressful and comfiest game mode though?

It's not like TA, where you need daily clears or GA, where you need multiple teams.

It's just there for you to do anytime for a month.

Tbf, I do enjoy all those game modes personally though.

[sick tulip]

The present reality is that FRR is probably not stressful, as you said.

[humble trail]

Yeah, I figure that 1 clear a month is slacc and can't be called a chore.

Imma shower rn, back in a bit.

[sick tulip]

In the context of having FRR reward a large amount of eligma, I fear that would make it mandatory to engage with in some people’s eyes.

Even in its present state, an uncanny number of people seem inclined to rush at the end of each month, or feel hassled at the beginning of the month. I am not really certain why that is.

[static chasm]

Bc you either get it out of the way or leave it till last minute

For me it's both

I clear up to F74 on day one bc I don't need a brain to do it

Then set aside some time later on in the month to do the actually hard bit

[late lily]

me attempting f80 this week: 😩

[humble trail]

Personally, I got the recipies to clear red/blue F100, so I do it day one and it's over.

They couldn't buff rewards massively though, since so many people were told that it's unrewarding and skippable, they slacced on investment for the mode.

These people would be angry if a change like that happened.

I don't agree that it's unrewarding, which is why I've been F100 from S1.

[late lily]

One of those angry people would be me

[humble trail]

[late lily]

People used hyperbolic statements, like, “the rewards from Set are completely useless” And implying that if someone prioritizes Set content, they’re stupid

[sick tulip]

I don’t think it is unrewarding either, but I can understand where the disappointment might come from

[static chasm]

skissue

[late lily]

I really need to stop listening to people

[sick tulip]

FRR masquerades well as being both more and less rewarding than it actually is.

[humble trail]

FRR be trolling

[sick tulip]

It is ironic, though with any luck, it will not lead to any polarisation of its target audience.

[sick tulip]

The gameplay channels in this server are biased towards TA anyway. I’m sure you can see that enough to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[late lily]

I think giving them the benefit of the doubt led to this problem in the first place

[sick tulip]

The benefit of the doubt includes a healthy dose of the ‘doubt’ part as well, doesn’t it?

You don’t believe everything that’s said at face value, right? My own words included.

[late lily]

I did as a newbie

Because I had no frame of reference

But I’m getting a better sense of how to sus out information in the context of this game

[sick tulip]

In the context of advice, I reserve the right to say whatever I like, and hence you reserve the right to believe as much or as little as you like, and vice versa.

[late lily]

And in general, be incredibly suspicious of any statements that contain superlatives as being hyperbolic

[sick tulip]

Suspicious…

[late lily]

and therefore disregard them

like when it was majority consensus by veteran players in gpd that lb mats were completely frivolous and made zero difference, even to the top speedrunner

[halcyon moss]

that is a joke indeed

[late lily]

they were not joking

they will pretend they never said that, if you asked them now

[sick tulip]

Well, I believe this is still true, but it requires some statistical nuance to justify why exactly that is.

The only place with variance low enough to measurably observe a change in outcomes from LB upgrades alone is Set itself.

[humble trail]

Hiero lamp with ue30 Kokona begs to differ.

[late lily]

It’s small, but it’s not nothing, like they claimed

[sick tulip]

Some people in the raid or PvP community will continue to explore its potential for investment shortcuts though, and that’s ultimately fine.

[humble trail]

LB fixes that and it has 0 variance.

Rare case though

[late lily]

Exactly. They never even mentioned this use case

[humble trail]

brute forcing it I mean

[sick tulip]

I like this example.

This example is good, because it illustrates what I think is an End of History Illusion.

[late lily]

But 2% is 2%. Why would I go through the trouble of using my 2% cash back credit card if 2% = 0%?

[humble trail]

Yeah, 1 ex + 1 basic at ue30 was barely not cutting it. Depending on bond, a certain amount of lb fixed it

[sick tulip]

The LB material still doesn’t matter on the Hiero lantern to the top speedrunner. Because the top speedrunners do not use things so pedestrian as UE30 Kokona.

[late lily]

And mald reduction is valuable. If you can reduce the number of tickets it takes to get the score you want, you increase your chances of actually getting that score before the raid ends. How is that not valuable

[humble trail]

ofc top bois all UE50 lol

[sick tulip]

The fallacy is that the experience of the top speedrunners can be cleanly extrapolated to the entire player base.

[late lily]

LB25 ATK for my wakamo measurably reduced the amount of resets I had to do in Goz to transition to p2 at the right time

[static chasm]

They need to give us better stats to upgrade with lb

[sick tulip]

In truth, being behind the top speedrunners and trying to catch up by means of an advantage that doesn’t benefit them is where LB upgrades can become beneficial.

[late lily]

And it wasn’t even a “top” speed run

[humble trail]

Wakamo's EX being capped by her atk means that LB for Wakamo is a consistent increase of dmg too.

[static chasm]

Who cares about atk, hp, and healing?

Give me evasion, crit, accuracy lb

[sick tulip]

This one is slightly less clear, and is the mathematical source of why people say it doesn’t matter.

[late lily]

Which is even stronger evidence pointing towards the naysayers being wrong

[late lily]

probability matters, though

[sick tulip]

The entirety of the LB upgrade’s effect is contained inside the stability stat of any one damage instance.

[humble trail]

Wakamo's EX is directly increased though, an exception once again.

Accumulation cap is atk%

No stab there

[late lily]

Even so, the entire peak of the distribution is shifted rightward

[humble trail]

When checking hw, you can see who has the stronger Wakamo, atk wise by the size of the pop lol

[sick tulip]

It is disingenuous to ascribe the change for the better to a source which statistically has one of the lowest chances out of all ongoing factors to be actually responsible for the difference.

[static chasm]

Ah yes, my wakamo doing more damage isn't responsible for the boss dying faster

[humble trail]

Ofc you can't guarantee that the lb increase itself made you successful.

But, logically, grab as much atk as you can afford, it's very simple.

[sick tulip]

Yes. There’s a distinction to be made between theoretical knowledge and pragmatism.

[late lily]

it is the only variable that changed, though

[sick tulip]

But if you wanted to know where the original mantra came from, and why it still holds up. That is where.

[humble trail]

rng being rng, you'd need like 1k runs before and 1k runs after to prove it statistically or something lol

[late lily]

I think the answer is much simpler, in that most people like to parrot hyperbolic statements. It makes them feel good. And if you question it, it then becomes about them “winning”

[sick tulip]

Consider that even on a unit like D.Hina, a single extra crit on a non-LB D.Hina in the right place instantly ranks that run above all +25 D.Hinas with average crit.

[humble trail]

Well, if someone skipped FRR themselves, they're more likely to suggest that it's skippable to reinforce their decision as being correct, too.

[late lily]

I understand. But I don’t think I need a full, proper empirical testing methodology to test something as simple as 2% higher atk

[humble trail]

ofc, mald wins all.

But, LB D.Hina is stronger than non-lb, it's also a simple fact.

[sick tulip]

Unfortunately, the LB changes little about D.Hina’s crit chances and hence the odds of acquiring the faster run do not actually change meaningfully.

This is hence why the top speedrunners also did not hesitate to put their LB mats straight on their waifus.

[late lily]

I’m not sure this is really a fair comparison, since it’s LB0 plus mald vs LB25 no mald

[sick tulip]

They understood that even if they had LB’d the fest dps, they would be resetting for the same number of crits as they were before. Killing in the same number of EX casts as before. Etc. Etc

[halcyon moss]

thats just wrong

literally all top speedrunners have went like mika > wakamo > dhina for lb mats

[humble trail]

duh

[late lily]

It doesn’t make sense for them to waste mats like that

[humble trail]

It's possible in theory for non-lb to leave 500hp and lb to kill, for a run, so you lb.

[late lily]

I wonder if that’s a made up story in the first place

Or if it only applied to one or a couple of speed runners

[static chasm]

Can't wait to LB Kuroko atk day 1

[late lily]

Not to doubt coha at all. I heard that story too

[humble trail]

I might Oji then Kuroko, to cook that chicken

[sick tulip]

It was somebody at the top of the leaderboard flexing a full LB Airi, iirc.

[late lily]

But it doesn’t make sense for top competitive players to just throw away free mats like that

[static chasm]

I was gonna Shanako it bc GA are all purple now but Kuroko will be better for the income

[sick tulip]

You can investigate and let me know if it’s true. I don’t mind being proven wrong.

(I’d rather be proven wrong as fast as possible even, if it’s all the same)

[sick tulip]

This should exist in theory, but we still haven’t exactly found it. In part because we haven’t even gotten max crit or max stability runs yet.

The closest I know of are a few D.Hina runs, and that one Binah speedrun, which is incidentally from global’s next raid season.

[late lily]

But in any case, it seems kind of fallacious to conclude that, just because a top speedrunner threw away their mats like that proves that lb mats are useless and make zero difference

Like if some top olympian smoked a cigarette right before the race

[sick tulip]

Yes, it’s the End of History Illusion that I referred to before. The thinking that we cannot discover anything new about the game that will change our circumstances.

[spark epoch]

Oh, Sora Shin is back!

[halcyon moss]

[humble trail]

Oh, I didn't mean max stab. I mean a humble attempt at a high stab run could pass or fail due to lb. An instance of it. I had an Hod run that required very high stab and it took me many tickets.

I was never talking about theoretically perfect runs, but run attempts themselves.

[sick tulip]

The disproportionate effect that the FRR rewards appear to have on all the non-FRR game modes is why I’m not entirely convinced about their integrity of design.

[halcyon moss]

try and find someone that tried top hod speedrun with non lb mika

im sure theyll say it was shit

[sick tulip]

From a purely theoretical standpoint, this run is guaranteed to exist. We can even manufacture one to pathologically fit the conditions and determine the rng seed that might lead to it.

[half atlas]

Lb to bald at 2% slower rate

[late lily]

My last ex has left like 50k hp on the boss plenty of times. And I had to watch in horror as my students slowly finished it off with autoattacks

50k hp is well within the margin of 2% atk diff

[humble trail]

Yes but I'm not talking about theoretical possibilities when I speak on the subject.

In short, I was saying that LB can reduce mald by making a run pass that wouldn't have passed without lb. An in-game attempt. That's valuable to me.

I hope to never try a run that needs 100% crit and stab.

[sick tulip]

Oh, well, I mentioned it theoretically because the belief that such a run will happen is equally theoretical.

[late lily]

I’ve experienced runs where lb would have saved it, though

[sick tulip]

I alluded earlier to the fact that the pragmatic thing to do is to LB regardless, if only because it insures you against regrets.

[humble trail]

[sick tulip]

I understand this is intended to be a devil’s advocate statement, so in kind - If you had had the LB, you would have crit one AA less.

[late lily]

lol

[humble trail]

I think we're all on the same page but maybe talking about things differently as well

Let's LB!

[late lily]

butterfly effect of higher lb reducing crit on just that specific run

[sick tulip]

Yes, how you interact with what is essentially your luck is as much a philosophy question as it is a strategic one.

Everybody is simply trying to improve their odds of success, be that success a Rank 1 score, or a humble clear.

[spark epoch]

The Fury of Set guarantees 100% during groggy; Chokmah guarantees 100% crit in certain time intervals. Time to fight them at the same time for 100% crit and stab!

[sick tulip]

My curiosity is still that LB has managed to invoke disproportionate concerns amongst players, somehow, when Bond Rank doesn’t…?

[humble trail]

RNG gods give runs and take runs as they please.

We can only bow and present offerings in hope of them being acceped.

[late lily]

my statement wasn’t meant to be a devil’s advocate statement. I was being serious that it wasn’t just in theory, because I literally experienced it

[humble trail]

Hmm, maybe cuz there's fomo about lb mats. Some people can't get a full set each month and they're time limited too, X max a month, etc.

[late lily]

Good point. There doesn’t seem to be any contention over that

[sick tulip]

Oh, sorry for misinterpreting, in that case. I perceived it that way because it is both anecdotal, and it’s basically an inductive fallacy.

[humble trail]

Bond also need time and resources too ofc

[late lily]

how is it a fallacy when the only requirement to disprove your statement is to provide one single counterexample

[sick tulip]

No no, the fallacy comes from the assumption that the differing conditions would have led to a different result, inside a context where the result was determined by randomness.

[late lily]

like stab and crit taking factors such as atk stat into its entropy? Not sure if I phrased that right

But literally butterfly effect

[sick tulip]

It might not sound intuitive, but the probability of a run where lack of LB is responsible for failing to clear does not speak anything of the probability of a run where having LB is responsible for success.

[half atlas]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/708674142362402866/1319387238697795584/why-is-kokoro-doing-the-speed-face-v0-cq3dc759gjod1.jpg?ex=67666f5e&is=67651dde&hm=71e2ca1aa0c4aea27b2ac65526f35909119ce652abc1b18a8472a6921fbbffb2&

[sick tulip]

In fact, even obtaining such a run does not inform in any way of the probability of that run happening, other than that it is greater than zero.

We just know, intuitively, that the odds improve.

[late lily]

it’s systematic error

of ~2%

It’s not random error

where it can go either way

it’s a static, solid contribution

and if I experience those “almost kill” runs a couple of times during the week, if lb could have prevented even two of them, that’s a buge boon to me

[sick tulip]

The theory is paradoxical because it suggests that the improvement is a limit approaching zero, unless we view it in a completely abstract sense as being 2%. Which it is. It’s 2%.

[late lily]

2% isn’t negligible, though

it’s just a flat number

this shouldn’t be that complicated

[humble trail]

@late lily I think Coha's basically saying this:

True statement: LB probably contributed to my run succeeding.

False statement: I can know with 100% certainty that LB was the determining factor for a very specific run.

[late lily]

I get it

Okay yeah, I get it

[sick tulip]

Yeah, I’m going to stop typing paragraphs, because I don’t think I’m explaining it well.

[humble trail]

Meaning, we can only guess.

[sick tulip]

And it’s largely academic.

[late lily]

The guess is pretty goddamn good, though

[humble trail]

Was I making a kinda ok TLDR there, Coha?

[half atlas]

Lb 25 all stats to unlock 🤰 cutscene

[static chasm]

Can confirm

[sick tulip]

This is exactly the same framework as the “could you have cleared without x unit” conundrum.

[half atlas]

Grats on your first baby

[late lily]

I still can’t understand how a flat 2% contribution could be this controversial. We don’t have this same kind of conversation about gear upgrades!

[sick tulip]

Heehee, the fact that it is controversial is what gives me doubts about it.

[humble trail]

Like, I think we can say that LB could make a run, but it's impossible to prove unless we have all the damage numbers, etc. mathed out with lb contribution written black and white on a paper. Like the engine telling us lol.

[static chasm]

Idk, the 2% healing on T9 necklace is pretty ass

[late lily]

at least heals don’t have stab and crit

[sick tulip]

Never have we had an upgrade system which so explicitly advertises itself as trivial, and yet somehow became so coveted.

[late lily]

hehe

[humble trail]

I always covet day 1.

[sick tulip]

Personally, I am still not certain whether the solution is to make the LB upgrades more impactful, or less

[static chasm]

[humble trail]

I think it's fine myself, but I probably don't think about it as deeply though, admittedly.

Numbers going up make monkey happy.

[static chasm]

That's all they gotta do

[sick tulip]

At one point, I thought that maybe it should have been stability or something

Or something that might be useful in FRR itself

[humble trail]

Hmmm, then if it's just for FRR, I lol

[sick tulip]

There’s something off about the fact that the FRR rewards seem least applicable for the FRR players

[static chasm]

If they don't want it to be a significant difference in output they should prioritise reducing mald using them instead

[native ocean]

i heard the reward atleast getting balanced on lower floor, but dunno when

[late lily]

I thought it started in season 2 in global

[sick tulip]

Was that when they nerfed all the floors below 80? That’s effectively the same thing anyway.

[late lily]

Or was that just difficulty

[native ocean]

I think it's bit after for jp

I never checked tho

[native ocean]

Nerfed stat, havent check the reward

[sick tulip]

Changing the relationship between the stats and the floor enumeration is functionally identical to moving the rewards to different floors.

[native ocean]

It just spreaded like dropping each floor for 1 book instead of each 7 floor or smth

Think they said the content are same

[static chasm]

I still think we should get enough to max a character from 1-74, then enough to max another one from 75-100

If the buffs are negligible why are they so time-gated

If they don't matter why can't we get more of them

[native ocean]

Did u know

That even with current

We are pretty much have much leftover

[late lily]

this statement isn’t unique to lb, though, right? It seems like it should universally apply to any flat stat increase (in this case, to atk) from any source, including gear, right?

[native ocean]

Cuz either none need it, or the artifact cost is too expensive

[sick tulip]

Only if it’s impact is less than the random noise

We can still make a distribution though, and develop a statement with a certain degree of confidence.

[late lily]

how do you precisely quantify random noise in this context, since maris crit diff also counts?

[sick tulip]

It’s if the effect of manipulating the variable in question is distinctly observable.

We’d technically make a statement of certainty about the strength of that causal association too, but… it’s usually pretty obvious. So it’s fine.

[late lily]

how would you test for this, and how many trials would be considered sufficient?

[humble trail]

yes ofc

[sick tulip]

For a video game? Idk if I could bring myself to do more than n=100 for most things. Unless it’s extremely quick.

Some of the more important things, like in the IJW doc already underwent their n=10000 or whatever it was.

I think I’d prefer to skip ahead to testing predictive power right away, because in the overarching context of “gameplay” the external validity that matters most is functional/behavioural.

Be it with LB materials or bond rank or other upgrades; knowledge of what its effects might be are only as impactful as how they change your decision making.

[late lily]

I guess the part I’m hung up on is why it seems that people only single out lb as the contentious stat contribution, when they could have done that for bond, incremental gear upgrades, etc. All of these flat stat increases individually may have a smaller impact than random noise in gameplay, but all of them do add up to something significant, that is greater than the aforementioned noise. My point is, every little bit matters

[sick tulip]

That’s exactly my reservation too!

[late lily]

It’s completely arbitrary to focus on one of them

[sick tulip]

It is oddly hypocritical to neglect bond rank, but stress over LB upgrades.

[late lily]

Like we could have the same argument about UE50 vs. UE49!

[sick tulip]

Likewise to fear the variance of LB stats, but not that of the stability on their AA hits.

[late lily]

“Just level to UE49; that last level doesn’t make a difference anyway”

[static chasm]

Me when UE70 drops but I get every student to UE69

[sick tulip]

Behind the concern of LB upgrades, there is not actually anything substantial, it seems.

But I hypothesise that it is not that there is any rational argument for the fixation on LB materials, but rather that a lack of understanding is the root cause.

[late lily]

Nice

[sick tulip]

The materials and consequent upgrade option is too visible: It’s impossible not to assume that it’s something important.

[half atlas]

In seth, straight up breaking it and by it haha, my limit

[sick tulip]

And conceptually everything about the system evokes a system that would be important, except that the number is tiny.

[late lily]

This sounds funny, but I don’t understand 😔

[sick tulip]

The weakness of the LB upgrade has been obfuscated behind as many strong-looking design features as possible.

[humble trail]

[sick tulip]

Or, as you mentioned earlier, it could be that it’s a secretly strong system that is doing everything it can to pretend that it’s meaningless.

[late lily]

I understand. Psychologically, expectations-wise

I only care about the final number

I just see it as an extension to gear upgrades

“just do it”

[sick tulip]

There isn’t anything fundamentally stopping it from being the next UE system either, keep in mind. It’s just that it is numerically weak.

[late lily]

If the stat contribution was +0.00001%, then I would have a different opinion on it. But 2% is significant within the context of all the other contributions in the game

(as in, a whole lot of small things add up to a big thing)

[sick tulip]

Err… kind of…? In my experience that is not actually how things work in general.

2% will be best felt if it’s used to hit some discrete breakpoint, I’d figure.

[late lily]

Forgive my wording

[sick tulip]

Generally though, most gameplay effects I am aware of tend to make impacts under the more ‘Kisaki’ approach. Where you just multiply your capabilities by a massive singular amount.

[late lily]

I don’t mean that it stands out individually. I mean that it’s just one of the many small stat contributions in the game, and it doesn’t uniquely deserve to be ignored

[sick tulip]

This could be like, reflective of our personal experiences too, of course.

[late lily]

Like using a 2% cash back credit card. It’s small, but when combined with a whole bunch of other small things like choosing index funds that have a lower expense ratio, it all adds up. “Just do all of it”

It doesn’t make sense to me to arbitrarily skip one thing or another

Assuming one cares

[sick tulip]

You talk about things like individual UE levels and skill levels and how they are considered important even at their most atomic levels, but… I’m perhaps from the subset of players who do not actually find them as important as you might.

[late lily]

I mean all of their atomic levels added together

[sick tulip]

Perhaps I really am becoming an old vet player…

[late lily]

The total at the end

My wording could be better

[sick tulip]

Yeah yeah, I understand. For the cases where they can accumulate to large degrees of course.

I think my students being above Lv70 is quite important before I can call them raid-ready.

But 83 vs 85 vs 87 is kind of whatever until proven otherwise

And then skills and gear and UE also end up at somewhat odd levels based on how rich I was when I made the upgrade under pressure

Because until you are right on the limit of a clear, well, there isn’t a tangible necessity (or even difference) between these numbers.

I remember that you are aiming for Torment clears or the like

[late lily]

… this is a case of you talking about clearing and me talking about score chasing, isn’t it

[sick tulip]

Maybe?

[uncut panther]

F100 clear, no s.izuna & s.shiroko

[sick tulip]

Along the way to clearing you will learn how to deploy and leverage units that have 3444 skills and T4 gear and the like.

[late lily]

Ah, yeah. As an intermediate stage, after which I’ll chase score to hopefully get two digit rank or better in raids

[sick tulip]

And it will start to make sense how older players are both able and more willing to deploy lots of teams of stuff that likely looks a little bit half-baked.

[late lily]

For these situations, I don’t even think about lb, because I’d only be aiming for a clear. But for speed runs, I’ll get everything I can. Lvl 90 999 gear as an obvious minimum

[sick tulip]

In principle this can apply to speedruns too (Lv89 M.Aris can still hit damage cap) , but that goes back to the discussion about pragmatism.

And opportunity cost, I guess

[late lily]

But with that goal in mind, aiming for minimum invest to get the speed run score clear is not important to me and would require too much effort

[sick tulip]

I do recognise that there is still a difference between dealing a certain amount of damage in the shortest time possible vs dealing the most damage possible in a certain time.

[late lily]

leveling to 90 for a speed run doesn’t require thinking

[sick tulip]

From my perspective, it is not an endeavour to clear with the minimum investment possible. The view is to acquire the maximum firepower possible with the investment that I can afford.

[late lily]

ah, right, we talked about this

[sick tulip]

JP will be clearing Torments below one-pan time soon. Once they do it will become a bit more obvious what the differences are. The end products do admittedly look pretty similar at the moment, just from glancing at the leaderboards.

It’s easily recognisable once scoring players start regressing back towards unit picks that are qualitatively ‘weaker’, but they go fast!

[late lily]

Right; understandable. It’s why all my fest are still ue40. I do have speed running as an eventual goal long term, though. And I’m trying to make sure that I’m steering in that direction

but yeah, it’s based on what you can afford or want to spend

[sick tulip]

Are you planning to speedrun only in the Torment era? Or do you have your eyes set on something in the next difficulty too?

[late lily]

I’ve been speed running insane to get plat. I intend to speed run the next difficulty after torment if/when that becomes a thing, too

[sick tulip]

That’s very impressive. I’ll wish you luck with that.

[late lily]

I don’t like settling on a clear. It’s not my play style. I like to get the “best I can, given my circumstances”

[sick tulip]

In terms of creative freedom, speedrunning a new difficulty raid on debut might be the closest you can get to personal expression, playing on global anyway.

The JP players encountering the raid for the first time typically do not have the correct tools prepared or they overlook the optimal strats, so iteration on the global servers sometimes branches in all directions.

[late lily]

I didn’t mean speed running it on its release; rather, I meant speed running it if/when speedrunning that difficulty becomes a thing

[sick tulip]

Oh~ I misunderstood again. Sorry…

[late lily]

foresight certainly does make it more interesting, though!

Six months for top players to plan

[late lily]

no worries

[late lily]

I won’t be one of these, btw

That was not my implication

[sick tulip]

If it’s the type of thing you enjoy, it might not hurt to try.

Even if you don’t personally secure the clear, you could create a timeline. All that’s needed for that is an idea.

[late lily]

Are you looking forward to the next difficulty?

[sick tulip]

Yes. I’m optimistic.

I’m easy to please, so I am not bored in the way that other players vocally seem to be.

[late lily]

me too, I think? Lol

[sick tulip]

But it is also true that I enjoy it when the task of clearing anything at all is a great challenge

[late lily]

Ah, I can understand that

Do you think they’ll keep the ticket at 1 hour?

[sick tulip]

Hmm… I don’t know if there’s anything insightful to add about my perspective in particular. I suspect that I am largely of the same mind to most others you could ask.

[sick tulip]

They probably will, imo.

I can understand the argument for extending the ticket time.

However, I believe that managing irl time is also a facet of raiding strategy.

One of my first ever Torment raids, a team which I had at the time thought was my strongest, I now realise was my weakest, because no matter how much damage it did, it consumed too much ticket time for me to correctly utilise the teams after it.

[late lily]

Interesting

I’m used to malding a wanpan ins speed run, so I’ve not that much experience with handling more than 2 teams

Like, malding a wanpan for the entire hour and not getting the speed run clear

I would switch to a contingency plan within the last 10 minutes so I still get the raid coins, though

[sick tulip]

At around maybe seven teams or so, wholistic time management starts to become a factor.

Some strategies are not worth the time it takes to get them right.

[late lily]

Yeah, sounds like too much mald in any one team could cost the clear

[sick tulip]

Or one might reason that, it’s less efficient to reset the main team and go for another four minutes, when instead I could deploy another team that resets for crits over at most 30 seconds, for the same cumulative target.

[late lily]

Sounds hard to balance

oh wait nvm

I get it

[sick tulip]

Makes sense?

[late lily]

yeah

[sick tulip]

It’s initially unintuitive, but obvious in retrospect

One would think that the long-haul team, with the most overall impact on the raid, is the one most worth resetting to maximise value out of, but it is not always that black and white

[late lily]

right

Can you give me an example? I’m curious

[sick tulip]

Hmm… I had a team in, I think Kurokage, which went the full fight length and produced between 5-7M damage. And the objective was to get 6M.

If at the end of that team, I had only 5M damage, I wouldn’t run the whole thing again searching for the extra 1M. Instead I went to a team where Junko attempts to instantly crit 1M hp out of the boss in a single go.

Resetting the 4M team takes around 2-3 minutes of gameplay, with additional opportunity for player error, in order to roll the dice again (potentially still falling short).

But I could restart Junko twenty times in the same span of ticket time, and the odds of getting the requisite crits were essentially the same.

[late lily]

Ok, got it

[sick tulip]

The crit-reliance didn’t directly change, but the efficiency and hence number of attempts increased.

Does it make sense?

[late lily]

Right

Yes

You could make more attempts in a shorter period of time (higher frequency) with the added benefit of less potential for human error

[sick tulip]

Yes, and there’s less chance for the boss to do some extremely bad rng or something as well (the previous team was a forced reset if Kokona got twelve eyes in a row).

So overall the longer or more stressful teams were organised to minimise their individual responsibilities, and then the corrections for unstable variance were picked up by teams that were time efficient

This was an easier to explicate example, but if you hadn’t already suspected, this was a case of an extremely long raid solution as well: I believe this solution was 12 teams in total.

Most raids which are shorter, will have this strategic intent also embedded a bit more subtly into the gameplay.

Having an entire team of units dedicated solely to this one task should sound a little absurd, because it is.

Nowadays I know what was wrong with my overall Kurokage strategy that caused the team count to inflate to such a degree.

But without going into a deep-dive. I will say that once one hits around 14+ teams that do not include bodythrow, it’s a strong indicator of some latent big-picture strategic inefficiency.

I think 14 full length teams around where there’s not enough time for even a single reset, as a case in point.

I hope that’s informative, haha. I don’t mean for any of that to come off as intimidating, but I realise that this sometimes sounds like a horror story for those who can’t fathom having that many deployable students…

Torment average, even on debut, was closer to 5-7 teams, often less.

[late lily]

It also sounds like it leaves little margin for error

But it certainly was informative. I appreciate it!

[sick tulip]

Yes. That’s an important consideration too.

As humbling as it is to admit it, some types of teams and strats are a poor match for me personally, because they are beyond my skill level.

Especially in the field of team wide reposition and consequent target switching, there are setups which contain the gameplay tools to properly counteract adverse outcomes, but I do not have the personal knowledge to know what the correct move exactly is.

So the play is that I resort to something which might be categorically weaker, but has better automatic self-stabilising features built into… typically the student kits themselves.

That part idk if I made sense, reading over that again…

[late lily]

I guess it might be a matter of risk tolerance and playing to your strengths?

[sick tulip]

Playing to my limits more like, lol

I maybe shouldn’t have brought that one up. There’s a lot of context to make it understandable.

It’s probably bedtime for me. Maybe you can get someone else to expand on the idea properly.

A common instance of this is in choice over Atsuko vs T.Yuuka

But that’s all from me. Sorry if I ended up rambling.