Azul Candle operation order

[errant crystal]

I think it's fairly clear that this is not optimal, the flat overburn should be applied before the doubling

[pine gyro]

Effects are applied top to bottom

Always

[errant crystal]

Yes, that's not the point

The point is the flat rate should be at the top of the card

[pine gyro]

Not really no

They aren’t gonna waste their time hardcoding a bunch of one off synergies

[errant crystal]

What's one off?
'Apply flat effects before percentage effects'

[pine gyro]

That would be a nightmare and make missed interactions feel awful instead of just how the game is which would be bad

[pine gyro]

Like individual combos

Like one specific charm on a specific card

[errant crystal]

Ok, I'm not sure why this is so tough for you to understand. I'm saying that when you add effects to cards, the effects should be ordered so that flat bonuses come before scaling bonuses
There's nothing that's specific to one charm on one card

[pine gyro]

And I’m saying they would have to hard code that for every applicable charm that does this to each individual card

Which would be stupid

[errant crystal]

Dude, I've literally pointed out how a generic rule applying to all charms and all cards could be coded

[pine gyro]

It’s not that easy

Not at all

They could do it if they wanted to but it’s really just a waste of time

[errant crystal]

Look, I'm making a suggestion here, kindly just move on

You're contributing nothing to the discussion

[pine gyro]

I kinda am and just because you don’t like what I’m saying doesn’t mean what I’m saying doesn’t mean anything and that you can just push me away

You kinda started this

I literally was just trying to help you

[errant crystal]

Blocked

[pine gyro]

Pathetic

Sorry

Just

No I’m not sorry

It’s not a big deal but people like you just make everything a problem and I’m starting to get sick of it because people like you keep ruining my life

It’s nothing personal

It’s just

Let the game be the game

I do think

This would be cool

[errant crystal]

<@&880767007216271361> can we get a mod in here please?

[pine gyro]

Was it that much of a problem?

Can’t people just have a civil argument about things anymore?

Honestly what they could do I think is maybe put charm effects just above everything? Idk what else that would change but I feel like if it could be as easy as that it would be neat

But it could also be intentional for balance purposes to not make it just stronger than every other card which otherwise would be equal (bar things like barrage) so

[lusty halo]

I'm fairly sure if you add (or any other status effect) to Snoffel it applies it first, and then does his apply to all enemies afterwards - and this is displayed in the correct order on the card.

So there's a precedent for this kind of ordering.
I agree, in your case, it should apply the first and then double it

[idle imp]

In the code status effects have textOrder. Presumably this determines the order status effects are listed on cards, however I haven't messed around with changing it.

[pine gyro]

That’s because the snow target is an attack effect and the snow all is an after effect

Yet again I do think there are ways to do this but again, balance

I do think it would be awkward if it was just better for specifically one card than every other card

[lusty halo]

Sounds like you're saying they chose this order for this specific card, rather than using the normal ordering that other cards use?

[lusty halo]

There are strong charm synergies already - just look at Soulbound Skulls
I have no issue with this being a strong synergy - especially seeing as it requires 2 charms to even be that special

[hybrid steeple]

no that's just how it is. most effects that aren't "Apply X" trigger only after attacking, with few exceptions you can count on one hand iirc (eg one of the eaters

[lusty halo]

Unless I misunderstood, I don't think what you said disagrees with what I said 😅
applies first because it's an "Apply X" effect, right?
Then should also apply first because it's an "Apply X" effect...?

[pine gyro]

Well that’s not really like

That’s just frenzy charm being frenzy charm

It’s just the card being good when you play it 3 times

Like how it makes pinkberry juice super good or like shell shield or pepper ring even

And that’s not a unique interaction

This is more of like

JUST one card with JUST one charm

[lusty halo]

No. With Soulbound Skull and frenzy, you can apply Soulbound to one ally, but multiple enemies.
This is far superior to just using the card 3 times

[pine gyro]

Well I guess but like that’s not anything special I think and it’s probably not intended

[lusty halo]

It's more special than the example given in this post

[pine gyro]

I think it’s because you don’t need to apply the effect to play the card (eg how frenzy charm doesn’t work on magma booster, since it can’t target aimless units, but soul bound skills has two targets

I think it’s an oversight really if not even a bug

[lusty halo]

Wait, what? I'm fairly certain you can apply frenzy charm to magma booster
I've done that before

[pine gyro]

Especially considering they reworked moko to not work with shellbo I doubt it’s intended

[pine gyro]

You can but it only works once

This was seen in a daily recently

This is because it tries to target a unit it can’t target

Eg if it had gnome charm it would always work twice if there were two targets in row

[vale vector]

[lusty halo]

I could be mistaken, but I'm almost certain I've used it to boost the same card multiple times
:edit: Just checked, you definitely could, I even posted about how great it was #wildfrost-spoilers message

[wicked briar]

Just make the "order" property of the percentage status effect be like 99999 or whatever

[pine gyro]

Soulbound souls seems like it’s not working as intended right now (with the stacking “glitch” where it does progressively more damage to targets while not logging as sacrifices)

[wicked briar]

So it's always in the end

[pine gyro]

If they wanna do that they might as well do this so it’s not just a weird anomaly for one or two cards

[wicked briar]

that'll make it always appear last in text, then I think there's an eventPriority property that actually does stuff in battle

set that to like -1 so that it's after apply x effect

[pine gyro]

Wildfrost has consistently worked to iron out kinks like this and forcing one just feels wrong

Eg. how smackback interrupts frenzy but how sunchime used to not interrupt frenzy

[lusty halo]

Wait, what specific one are we forcing?

[pine gyro]

The card reading text in the wrong order unlike every other card in the game

Card in question being azul candle but it could also affect similar cards like spice stones

[lusty halo]

No. The order should be changed to match all the other cards.
This card doesn't need special ordering - it needs the ordering fixing

Like you said, "Apply X" effects usually go first
This card is a strange exception - and should be fixed

[pine gyro]

The issue is this issue would only affect this card so it would in the end only apply to this card

Which would be against wildfrost’s design philosophy

Do you think my solution is good?

It does what you want btw

[lusty halo]

I feel like you're thinking about this backwards

[pine gyro]

So please try to consider it

Instead of just ignoring it for the second time

I’d appreciate it

Greatly

[errant crystal]

Maybe one of you can get through to this guy. It's like talking to a brick wall.

[pine gyro]

Bro you really don’t need to be talking here you can’t just come back in to an active conversation and keep acting like an ass

And you’re the one saying I’m not adding anything to this convo

Meanwhile I’m literally trying to act on your side

And you just refuse to even read what I suggest because you don’t want to read anything I say and then just say I’m the issue because you don’t actually know what I’m saying so you just hurl meaningless insults and paint yourself as the victim

So please

Consider my idea and we can all agree

You don’t have to agree

But

I hope you will

Because I’m trying to be on your side

[lusty halo]

Guys... I tried to move the conversation away from your argument and keep the suggestion discussion going.
Can you both stop with the sass and vitriol?

[pine gyro]

I’m trying my hardest

But these are problems you have to address directly

[pine gyro]

Don’t you think this would work for what you want?

I’m just trying to get a realistic solution for what you want

I’m trying to help

I just want you to tell me if you think that’s fine

This isn’t deep please stop making it deep

[errant crystal]

Right, apologies. It got annoying to see the same point being repeated for half an hour, couldn't resist

But yeah, it's definitely not in line with how other cards behave, which is why I brought it up

[pine gyro]

It is

And what I’m suggesting

Changed how that works to give you what you want

I’m giving you what you want

I’m agreeing with you

Stop harassing me

And listen

Bro literally all you’ve done is harass me this entire time

[lusty halo]

@pine gyro , respectfully, your spam messages look more like harassment from an outside perspective

[pine gyro]

The only thing I’ve tried to do is help

Legitimately

He’s just ignoring everything I’m saying can’t you see that?

It’s like talking to a toddler

Who I want to agree with

But he won’t even listen to me

[lusty halo]

As for your idea of putting all charm effects first, this could work, however, the "Apply X" effects still need to go first - otherwise "consume" effects from charms would trigger first... which would ruin everything

[pine gyro]

I agree I think that the +3 should happen before the double

[pine gyro]

Well wouldn’t they? Consume is already put on the bottom, it’s not like show charming a molten dip makes it not apply snow

Consume always goes to the bottom and even if it didn’t the card would still do everything

Not like destroying the card would end its effects since it would still be playing the card

Is there another flaw?

[lusty halo]

Consume can be added with charms.
So if your suggestion is to always add charm effects first, then this isn't a good solution

Basically, I don't see the point of complicating a simple issue.
"Apply X" effects should go first.
This one card needs fixing.
That is the bug report/suggestion.

[clever peak]

side note: Consume is a trait (like Longshot, etc.), and traits always go below regular effects afaik

[pine gyro]

And I’m saying I don’t like that solution, I think it’s a balance issue at its core and an issue that has a better fix than just hardcoding one card anyways

[pine gyro]

Yup. And even if it didn’t, the card would still do everything on it first

Well not first

But after it got consumed

So really my solution has no issues

And it fits the game a lot better than something they’ve been working to remove for many updates

[lusty halo]

It's not hardcoding one card.
As others have mentioned, they just need to fix the order of events for one effect - Double Soulburn

It's really not a complicated issue, but your suggestion makes things more complicated.
The fix proposed in this post sounds well within Wildfrost's current mechanics

[pine gyro]

The funny thing is not a single thing you said is true

But we can just ignore everything I’ve said right?

Sorry I’m like

Actually sick and kinda moody

Just

[lusty halo]

I can tell dude. Go get some sleep. I hope you feel better ❤️

[pine gyro]

Super Bowl 😭

11:13 game time left

Probably 1 hour 30m left

Anyways uh

Still no valid comment on why my idea doesn’t work

[wicked briar]

While we're talking about status effect ordering, another thing that should be fixed is the text for "increase by 1 when hit", it would be great if it was turned into a keyword, so like you can have
"Apply 1 "
" Grow"
That way it doesn't matter where the second line is, so if you have
"Apply 1 overburn"
"Heal 3 on kill"
"Increase by 1 when hit" it doesn't make it sound like the heal effect is also increased

Since that effect is always last in the text

[pine gyro]

true

or just

"increase base effects"

or just make it work with charms lo

tbh I do have a plan for a companion that has like

overburn but for strength

its like shen but it only gets buffed for one turn

and I think it could stand to buff everything

so making it based on icons instead of being keywords would be silly

but I mean let them do what they want

which can be nothing

[wicked briar]

do not

[pine gyro]

yeah

[vivid solstice]

Here's the solution, just make Azul Candle apply 1 Overburn like Spice Stones

Then if it gains any additional Overburn it just stacks on top of the 1 it already has

It would probably have to lose the 1 damage though

[idle imp]

That is a pretty big buff to Azul candle as it makes it playable with no other overburn in the deck.

[vivid solstice]

I mean, is the same not true for Spice Stones

In both cases playing them without their respective status still isn't great

If you don't have Spice sources then Spice Stones are just Peppering but worse

[idle imp]

The difference is Azul Candle is good when you have overburn. While Spices Stones needs Peppernut charm or Pepper Flag to be good.

[vivid solstice]

Fair enough