Tom And Jerry

[subtle lotus]

He has no purpose in any area

He cant defend with only projectiles

They are weak if you dont implement pressure with meele attacks and combos

Like bugs bunny

He has nothing to offer

[visual tiger]

?

[subtle lotus]

Hes not at an good state

[visual tiger]

Bugs is crazy good

[subtle lotus]

And nobody will see it, till they play the character on ranked

[subtle lotus]

They nerfed him

[visual tiger]

boohoo?

[subtle lotus]

Its ok for me

[visual tiger]

he still is up there in any tier list

like

[subtle lotus]

They made him an reading character

[visual tiger]

up there

[subtle lotus]

That should be T&J

They need to give T&J

Atleast 7 good combos

That can link into an reading sequence

Like bugs bunny

[visual tiger]

They need to kill Jerry first and foremost

[subtle lotus]

Or tech resets

And give him 3 kill confirms

Atkeast

[subtle lotus]

Jerry its alr killed

[visual tiger]

dude, at that point just choose batman

[subtle lotus]

You can kill him really easily

[visual tiger]

you want to play batman

you don't want to play TnJ

you're in the wrong place

[subtle lotus]

Nah bro

Like T&J its really lame

He dont kill and he has 0 combos

Also his kit is not meant for poking

[visual tiger]

yes, he's lame as hell

[subtle lotus]

Like his meele utility

[visual tiger]

the literal lamest character in the roster

[subtle lotus]

So you cant make those changes

[subtle lotus]

Hes the worst for me

[visual tiger]

but that's straight up tnj's design at this point

[subtle lotus]

They gutted him

Just rework him

[visual tiger]

I agree he sucks from a design point

[subtle lotus]

Pls just rework him

[visual tiger]

that he's boring and frustrating for everyone

but that's just what they're going with

[subtle lotus]

Ik but they didn't have to lit kill him

[visual tiger]

They don't wanna make him a melee character, that much has been clear ever since the beta

but with how they're going, they make Jerry the literal life and death of the entire character

[subtle lotus]

He have tons of meele stuff on his series

[visual tiger]

so they genuinely can't tweak anything about him until Jerry's function changes

[subtle lotus]

They can erase every projectile and make him an assasin

Lit that's everyone complain

Give him smth special that aren't projectiles and give him more combos and read tools

[minor bluff]

Has anyone else had problems with Jerry? Sometimes when I try to throw him a ball comes out as if I didn't had Jerry, it made me lose a few stocks already

[coarse drift]

I believe if you use your 2 specials in the air and then try to use Jerry shot it just does tennis ball instead and won’t shoot Jerry

[cerulean cliff]

That's been an issue since relaunch

[summer rivet]

been having problems with that mouse since day 1 🗣️

[odd wadi]

Yes and the one that won't let you use any specials after doing certain actions. The animation will start and then stop

Think it works for anything tom does really but it's annoying that it still happens

[hidden verge]

Idk why but fast fall is making me fumble my tech combos

I’m not used to it yet

[minor bluff]

i got used to it pretty quick, but what's the point if i can't kill anything till they're like 170 😭

[trim zealot]

You can kill at about 100-130 with down air > up air. Earlier with down air spikes or Jerry snipes.

Just be careful with your double jumps/dodges or else you might not be able to perform it.

[minor bluff]

yeah i struggle a lot with double jumps

[trim zealot]

It can work with just dodges too, depending on the % and DI. As long as you have meter, obviously.

[trim zealot]

Ever since up tilt got nerfed, I’ve found myself using down air way more in neutral. The devs got what they wanted, I just wish it hadn’t cost us most of our combos. That being said, I still think T&J neutral is pretty good, playing around platforms isn’t so bad with down air being a good disjoint. The only downside to being on a platform is competing with larger disjoints, armor, and not being able to Jerry shot/dynamite through platforms. Sometimes it’s just better to short hop underneath them.

I mention this because putting yourself on top of a platform briefly to restore your double jump isn’t always a bad idea. Especially with dynamite or trap shutting it down for your opponent.

T&J have bad disadvantage, but an easier time landing than some other characters just because of dynamite and Jerry shot coverage.

[sturdy yarrow]

PFG: Tom's tech chase loop is toxic we are removing it even If it guts all his combos

Also PFG: Harley Sair loop go brrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[subtle lotus]

That's not true

Down air into up air doesn't combo if you have more than 100%

Bc of di

That only only works on 80 to 95%

[cerulean cliff]

The problem is simply there aren't enough good Harley players

Where as TnJ had the former #1 in the world

[trim zealot]

I meant with the varying weights, I guesstimated the lightweight starting %. On midweights it’s usually 100 and stops working around 120, on heavies it usually starts around 120-130, and ends around 150ish.

I haven’t labbed exact %s, but it is a true kill confirm on the entire cast.

[sturdy yarrow]

Hot fix and Harley sair loop gets a free pass 👍

[subtle lotus]

Thats not true anywere

[subtle lotus]

Depends on character and weight

For light weight 80 to 95

For heavy 80 to 95 tho

Then they can di down air to avoid any hit like up air or side air

What makes you hit up air its the hitbox on the character and the di

Also is not an kill confirm

An kill confirm its an 100% consistent kill option

And this is not an kill confirm in any way

He got 0 kill confirms

[trim zealot]

If I can enter the lab, and set the bot to not only dodge a direction (random, away, etc.) but also DI in it as part of the process, and they never manage to dodge out of it, I’m pretty sure it’s a true kill confirm.

You have to dodge or double jump (or dodge jump) to catch up to your opponent after the ground bounce, but it does work.

Down air, nor up air never got any frame data or launch angle changes, so the combo still works.

Actually down air did, once, but the kill confirm still worked afterwards so it didn’t really matter too much.

If you can’t land the kill confirm, you’re probably fast falling the down air and trying to land before the up air, you need to stay airborne for it to work.

[subtle lotus]

If you put the bot at dodge away it automatically dis away

[subtle lotus]

Is not true

I alr labbed the character

You won't kill any character if they surpasses 110%

While trying to kill

The di its stronger in this game

It wont work

If they don't di incorrectly they won't die till you let them like at 150 or 180

So you can try an single down air

Or jab down tilt

[trim zealot]

Ok. I try not to say that people are incorrect in many claims, but THIS combo is definitely not true at high %s, unless the opponent DIs straight down. I also lab this character, every single patch, on top of playing them, I have yet to see that down air > up air is not true.

[trim zealot]

Dependent on the character too, I guess, of course Jason and larger characters will be hit by the down tilt, regardless of DI, but that’s what the extra weight makes up for.

I find down tilt to just be a decent whiff punish for armored moves, or whiffed dash attacks/dodge-in-jabs (cough,cough Arya, Batman, and Wonder Woman).

[subtle lotus]

Bro jab 1 into d tilt its true in every di don't start yapping

Also down air into up air wasn't true on high percents at any moment

They only jab sequence that is not true at high percents it's jab 3 into d tilt

That one can be di

[trim zealot]

Oh you meant jab 1, yeah that’s true. I thought you meant jab 3.

I’m gonna be real, I’ve gotten so used to up tilt > up air, racket > down air > Jerry snipes, and down air > up air that I forgot jab 1 comboed into down tilt.

[subtle lotus]

Only up air its true on some occasions on the follow ups that you listed

The only stuff that you could combo on some situations with paddle its side air and up air

T&J got 0 kill confirming and 0 combos

Its super situational

Di, weight, percentage and hitbox its always important to combo

Theres no true stuff that isn't jab 1 into dtilt

You can even di jab sequence last hit at high percentage

[trim zealot]

On some characters that are large enough, jab 3 > Jerry shot > dash forward jab is true, you can finish that with Jerry shot too, though it leads into a tech chase. You can also combo off Jerry shot depending on the angle, distance, and % of the opponent with tennis balls, into up air or forward air. The jab statement has nothing to do with Jerry shot combos, you need to at least be aerial for those to work.

I would love to agree and say T&J have absolutely 0 combos of any kind, just so PFG will buff this character, but I’ve never downplayed T&J, and with all the nerfs other characters have gotten, in addition to the movement changes, T&J feel actually ok this patch. I have to be clear though, they aren’t nearly as fun as when they had the jump branch.

Also, their competitive viability is in shambles right now, I haven’t seen any T&J reach like top 8 or anything ever since slightly after the jump branch nerf. The only footage I have seen since the nerf, in an actually good placement, was of hardcorefox getting stomped on because each hit only lead to like 15% or less, and any extra damage had to come from a read.

It doesn’t help that some characters like PPG, agent smith, and Superman (slept on atm) are left with easy to perform, good coverage, TOD reads that kill early. It’s not like they’ll get punished for missing them.

I really think the best solution here for T&J is just to add the jump branch back, and remove the dumb restrictions on what can be canceled into from paddle, the combos that weren’t loops were never overpowered in any way, especially after the auto tech introduction.

People have finally learned that all you need to do to avoid paddle is stay on the ground, so I don’t see how giving T&J back their combos would harm the game in any way.

[cyan whale]

I don’t think PFG knows how to add back the jump branch to paddle without introducing some loop

But I appreciate the fact that you’re honest about T&J instead of one of the many character mains crying for buffs for your character and nerfs to others

Personally, I don’t think paddle necessary needs the jump branch back to introduce combos. I think other moves of his can be tweaked to add more depth to his combo game

Things like jab being consistent so you can’t DI out of it, giving him consistent kill confirms with jab 1,2,3 -> dtilt or paddle -> uair

Or even just improving Jerry racket to make it more consistent to follow up on

Maybe sair could become a combo tool at lower percents if they massively buff the cancel window on hit

[fast zephyr]

i just played beta again

man, how fun was tnj

[trim zealot]

It has a cancel window?

Oh, I guess it might because it does feel safer on hit, compared to whiff.

[cyan whale]

I’m saying the move could become a combo starter if PFG gives it one

Technically every move has a cancel window on hit, but some of them aren’t good enough to allow for combos

[odd wadi]

T&J have a lot of good stuff. Peeps just don't know what they're doing

[trim zealot]

That might also require a launch angle change as well, which I’m not against, but right now it typically sends opponents too far away without any ground bounces unless the opponent has really bad DI (even with the ability to cancel it sooner, I’m sure it would need something else to combo, unless we could combo it into Jerry shot, which would be pretty cool.

[sturdy yarrow]

Smith has a loop and Harley has a loop but Tom's was just to much

[cyan whale]

The Harley sair loop was created on accident when they tried to adjust the move a patch or two ago

And Smith doesn’t have a loop. He just has a real combo game and good kill confirms

Something that seems to be getting taken away from more and more characters

[dusty nova]

Form across a large stage as in across the map on not tournament legal stages as in not 1s stages and from long stage distance it's quite easy to dodge and punishable only time fishing kills at 80 on a legal stage is near upper blast zone characters like heavys more specific garnet or superman jason don't die to multiple kill moves and confirms at 130 and win for it

Dam I haven't been in this chat for a fat minute

And honestly wanting moves like the cheese trap to kill at over 100 aint bad💀

[odd wadi]

I wanna fight this but I'm not home and I don't know what the tournament legal stages are. I posted a clip a while back about it but you got it

[trim zealot]

Has anyone else experienced losing character mastery levels?

I went into my fighters tab and I noticed that 4 of my fighters lost all their levels.

Thankfully T&J weren’t 1 of them, but it’s worrying.

[cyan whale]

I’ve heard of that happening to some people. I think restarting the game fixes it, but it hasn’t happened to me, so I can’t say for sure

[minor bluff]

probably just a visual bug

[trim zealot]

It does. It also refreshed after playing a game or 2, so I think it is just temporary and visual.

[acoustic belfry]

guys,do I use the defending perk thar gives 15 grey health after respawning or do I still keep using thats flammable?

[trim zealot]

That’s flammable is still probably the best bet for T&J, but stronger than ever is the best it’s been, since the grey health doesn’t go away until you get dealt %15 damage.

[remote musk]

Anyone have a new guide for T&J

?

[fast zephyr]

there is not a recent one, but i would recommend you to use the racket more

its like the best attack tnj has now

[remote musk]

what is racket ?

[fast zephyr]

https://tenor.com/view/simona-halep-big-tennis-racket-simona-halep-big-tennis-racket-huge-tennis-racket-tennis-racket-gif-11072983218407794456

[remote musk]

😂👌🏼 thank you

[dusty nova]

Ah yes

[trim zealot]

I would recommend using down air and Jerry shot in neutral, be careful about Jerry shot, but down air has a lot of disjoint. Just space yourself from your opponent well, and you should be fine.

Also, use dynamite frequently, especially if using single dynamite sticks.

Even having it out is a huge threat to any opponents.

Some basic combos include down air > forward air, up tilt >forward air/up air depending on DI, Jerry shot > tennis ball > up air/forward air, and falling dynamite > whatever.

You can kill confirm down air > up air, and up tilt > up air if the opponent has bad DI.

Down air > up air always works, just make sure they aren’t at too high a % and cancel down air into a dodge, jump, or dodge jump. Note that this requires you to have your double jump or a dodge, and stay in the air to perform.

[hidden verge]

I love single dynamite since you can use it to bait hitstun for combos

But our combo game is gone

And it sucks super bad

Loops don’t exist since tech exists

Why not just give up our jump branch back?

[remote musk]

At least they give us like something to protect Tom this will be really good for T&J

[hidden verge]

Jerry is fine rn

We need more combos

[remote musk]

Fr like now Harley have weird loop i don't know why they give her this weird combo

[dark lance]

t&j have combos?

[acoustic belfry]

absolutely not

I actually tried my best to double jump and jerry shot downwards after the up paddle ends

I miss most of the time

[fast zephyr]

He does have, but very few

And really difficult to do

[cyan whale]

A lot of them are DI dependent, but there are some

Paddle to uair or sair depending on DI

Jerry shot to Jerry racket to any aerial with the right Jerry shot angle

Cheese trap to uair

If jab works, then jab 1,2,3 to dtilt

Dair to uair

Dair to nair tech chase

[trim zealot]

You can also do racket > down air. At later %s this can kill near ledge, you just have to double jump or dodge jump before the down air.

Note that the racket needs to ground bounce for it to combo.

[subtle lotus]

That super unconsitent

Most of the time it dont work

D angle jerry shot into racket its better

Also let's the opponent into ledge trap

So you can rush down then dair

Or do whatever you want

But remember that your at disadvantage at the moment

So don't mess up

Bc of the non jerry state

So be careful

[trim zealot]

I’m done arguing about which combos are true or not with you.

[fast zephyr]

bro, tnj really need a buff lmao

its stupid how nerfed it is on platforms maps

i just kill a batman at 216

and he is not even a tank ffs

most of us attacks have way too much whiff

[odd wadi]

no point with that one. You know nothing and he knows everything because he beats top 100 players

[fast zephyr]

still no tnj buff

[minor bluff]

its over

[odd wadi]

Don't need in my opinion but maybe mid season patch

If they care about win rates they'll buff em

If not good luck

[fast zephyr]

I mean

Not like a buff buff

But like less whiff in some attacks

I always get punished because of that

More like that ynow

[odd wadi]

I want them to fix the bug that stops us from using specials and the one that shoots a tennis ball instead of shooting jerry

[fast zephyr]

Yeah that also

Is soo annoying

[odd wadi]

They were both fixed a while ago and they've returned

Actually I think the tennis ball one is new

[fast zephyr]

Idk tbh

Tnj is fine, but a buff is necesary

At least vilma got a buff right?

[subtle lotus]

Your contradicting yourself

T&J ain't fine his trash now

Like he has nothing they deleted everything

[subtle lotus]

Don't try to save an character that is alr dead

They nerf the hell of the character you wont win any fight if your opponent is good at the game

[cyan whale]

Not yet

But when shields get added, he will become bottom 5 if he’s not compensated

[fast zephyr]

not at all

is a meh character

its so easy to win big guys

like jason or iron giant sometimes

but against shaggy or arya

its kinda difficult because of their speed

[coarse drift]

What is this characters worse move

[cyan whale]

Probably fishing rod

[coarse drift]

Nah

At least not in 2s it’s still a very situational moves but it can stuff approaches or get Ko’s at weird angles

I use it more then dash attack or jab at the very least

[cyan whale]

Those are two other contenders for his worst move

[minor bluff]

i never use his dash

[cyan whale]

Dash attack can low profile a surprising amount of stuff

That’s about the only reason to use it tho

[minor bluff]

fishing rod is not bad, it's just a bit weird lol
i use it way more than his dash and jab tho

I would use his jab more if it wasn't so risky, if you miss that the end lag is horrible

Sometimes it's better keep doing the jab when you miss in hopes that the opponent will come closer thinking you're not going to keep using it lol

[cyan whale]

I’d argue jab can’t be his worst just because it’s his only “fast” ground option

[minor bluff]

yeah, and it connects to other attacks

[cyan whale]

Did they finally make it consistent yet?

Or do people still fall out of it constantly, especially on DI up?

[minor bluff]

eeh... i still see people fall out of it...

[cyan whale]

Did they do anything to buff it?

[minor bluff]

i think they actually nerfed it with the hitboxes changes hahshs

[subtle lotus]

Jab sequence or jab 3 into dtilt is not true

The only sequence you can use is jab 1 into dtilt

The only true combo from T&J

Then all are situational

Depending on character, weight, percentage, hitbox, stage

[minor bluff]

pretty much 😭 i don't think T&J are exactly bad when it come to moves and stuff, i can deal a lot of damage but they have so much stuff against them
they barely kill until like 140/170, stages with low platforms are a pain to play in since dynamite and jerry get stuck in them easily, they can die at 40 from some strong attacks and usually die around 70/80 with basic combos
i stopped playing 1v1 because i was getting stressed with all of this so i just started playing 2v2 where they are way better

[subtle lotus]

Yep that's basically it also adding the fact that now he has 0 combos

0 kill confirms

And the worst disadvantage in the game

The no jerry state its lit your dead runaway

This game balancing its trash

[trim zealot]

Where’s our buffs PFG? Why have you forsaken us?

[pliant pond]

oh thats grounded blank jerry shot :/

[lean haven]

How do you play funny cat and Jerry =000? I bought the black friday offer and now I wanna play them more =>

[subtle lotus]

They got giga nerfed

Lit trash character

[lean haven]

Oww =c

[subtle lotus]

Just wait till we get an rework or buff

Now his super trash

[wild spruce]

why tf does every character have to be at 190 to kill

[wild spruce]

i can get hella combos but nothin fkn kills until at least 140 it’s got me so mad

[subtle lotus]

Theres like no combos

Like true combos theres nothing

[subtle lotus]

That's what im saying

Unfortunately every time we complain about the current state of T&J

People say it's just downplaying

If they didn't touched the character since game release

Just hypocrisy

[wild spruce]

it’s actually stupid

cus why tf do i gotta combo up to 200 to kill, and get killed at 80

[minor bluff]

i've died at 40 from strong attacks on ledges 😭

i have a clip where garnet charges a strong attack with armor and kills me at 39

[wild spruce]

it’s so stupid

cus there’s nothing i can do

doesn’t help that everyone plays bruisers or tanks so they heavy asf

[subtle lotus]

You get kill at 50

Also theres no consistent way to stack good amount of dmg

Theres no combos

You always have to look for situations to deal more dmg

[wild spruce]

facts

we need some sort of kill buff fa

[subtle lotus]

We need kill confirms

Combos

And an speed buff if they don't want to make us heavier

Also more kill power

Lit im dying at 50 with raven

This is not fair

Also jake kills at 30

And we can't punish his damm nair

[fast zephyr]

i really hate playing against shaggy

he kills at 90

and he is so fast

[cyan whale]

I hate playing as Shaggy. They neutered his combo game, so he just spams random kill at 70 moves

[subtle lotus]

Bro every character kills T&J at 90%

[fast zephyr]

not at all

i fight a lot of characters

and the only ones that kill at 80-90% is shaggy, stripe and raven

maybe others too, but its situational

[subtle lotus]

Those arent killing percentsge

[fast zephyr]

it is!

shaggy does this up special

sorry if im not saying it right

[subtle lotus]

No im talking about in general

[fast zephyr]

i dont usually talk in english

[cyan whale]

I can confirm that Shaggy jab jab up special will kill T&J at the later 80’s or early 90’s

[fast zephyr]

totally

is so annoying because they usually wait until we whiff

to make that kill confirm

i just hit grandmasters haha

[cyan whale]

Nice

I haven’t been playing as much of season 4

I got T&J to like diamond 3 in season 3 before the season ended because I ran out of time

[fast zephyr]

i played sometimes this month because of university

but it ended today, so its time to rankkk

[cyan whale]

I graduated already, so I can only play sometimes after work or on weekends

[fast zephyr]

damn

congrats

i still have to study around 2 years

[wild spruce]

yeah bro i’m ngl i’m done with this game until we get some type of buff

slowest jab in the game, worst disadvantage state, no true combos, no kill moves, and 2nd lightest in game

[grave dagger]

Some T&J Racket things
https://twitter.com/zeldris505/status/1862032281902219691

[hidden verge]

Alr I tried to play Tom

But I just cant

He’s so bad right now

All the meta picks have insane matchup against Tom

He has no combos

If he whiffs anything he has insane punish windows

And literally all you have to do to win against a Tom is to di out

And he literally can’t do anything

He can’t kill till 160 with his “confirm”

And I put on all this percentage just to die at 60-90%

It’s trash

I’m a master Tom

And I’m hard stuck plat because this meta is revolving around insane hard counters to Tom and Jerry I quit

[visual tiger]

Isn't the number 1 overall player literally maining TnJ?

[raven onyx]

Hardcore plays like 12 hours per day

[visual tiger]

It still is the top 1 playing TnJ a lot and winning enough to gain points faster than others

If their only goal is to just be top 1 (which it is tbh), then they're gonna play the most consistent character they can for it

[fast zephyr]

i also think tnj is kinda bad right now

[fast zephyr]

but most of the time, i win because of the majority of this combos

the character is bad, but believe me if you master it, you become a threat.

i already hit #5 tnj

and I don't even play much

[subtle lotus]

Starting with racket its one of the most punishable thinks in the game

Also if you get an racket you should follow up with jerry shot

Wich is true

Also one think that i use to stack till 150 dmg

Its reading with racket instead of paddle

After doing jab 3

[subtle lotus]

I think going up in ranked its about luck with this character

Lit everyone can clap you leaving you with no choices of he khows the counterplay

Also the mu system

[fast zephyr]

Yah

[subtle lotus]

If you get an bad mu your cooked

[fast zephyr]

I get beated most of the time

Because of shaggys

And recently ppg

[subtle lotus]

I only get beat bc of the bad mus

Also the players that knows the counterplay

Its really easy to die with this character

[minor bluff]

I got tired of seeing Batman and Smith over and over online hahshs
Mostly on ranks above mine

[subtle lotus]

Ye

This character its trash tier bro

Your rank depends on luck

If your opponent knows how to play against them your basically cooked

You need to hope about getting an good mu that we lit have like 2 jason and jack

And even with that jason can kill you super early

And jack the same

[dusty nova]

Gettin real tired of ravens jacks and batman's fishing pressing 1 button and it killing all the f time

[raven onyx]

But Agent Smith can be still be #1

[dusty nova]

Multiple melee kill confirm an Arial jab that also kills but why tho

[dusty nova]

Agent smith I also dislike but fr different reasons except forn the dash still killing at 70

Op lemme just respawn raw dash and kill at 70

Skill

[subtle lotus]

Yep he's stil top 1

One agent smith lit true comboed me n air after up air

[dusty nova]

Hear me out we remove platforms all together

[cyan whale]

But I like placing the cheese trap on a platform

[minor bluff]

true

[fast zephyr]

PLEASE

idk how many jerrys ive missed because of platforms

[grave dagger]

I know, those clips are mostly meant to imply that there are more options to vary the gameplay, not replace those things with these, 3 jabs and nair can be better if you're not sure where the opponent is dodging since you have less whiff if you make a mistake. Also, if you charge the racket to enter, it's a bad entry, so a clean nair hit moving away from the opponent a bit is better since you don't expose your hurtbox as much, so you can enter better.

[odd wadi]

this is legit what I want

the samurai jack stage is beautiful

and no platforms

[lean haven]

Even tho Tom isnt my main, I agree. I love final destination type of stages Owo

[dusty nova]

Fr

[fast zephyr]

Idk how would it be jerry to traspass a platform as a solution

[dusty nova]

Yeah same and platforms just disadvantage mage players heavily and helps others

[fast zephyr]

But its literally so annoying to play in platforms maps

AND I JUST HATE DEXTERS LAB

[dusty nova]

Sammme

[dusty nova]

I perform so different on a flat stage vs Dexter's stage

[fast zephyr]

True

I love big maps without platforms

Or at least maps with platforms like the batman cave

[dusty nova]

I love the new samuri jack maps perfectly flat

[fast zephyr]

Those are cool to make combos that wouldnt be possible

[fast zephyr]

Yeah

That map is the best they could have release since season 2

[dusty nova]

Yrr

[subtle lotus]

Even with an clean nair its really easy to react and punish like nobody its getting hit by it

But you could use it to read

After jab 3

You can do the read instead of paddle, get it with racket

I was simply doing that

Its really risky

But its all we have

[wild spruce]

jerry keeps selling i’m losing stock cus i shoot a tennis ball instead of jerry

[minor bluff]

that bug has been in the game since launch 😭

[warped arrow]

All you toxic spamming Tom and Jerry players need to touch grass lol yall stay spamming with a broken character

[fast zephyr]

whats your main

[odd wadi]

They fixed it and the other one at some point but it's back

[odd wadi]

I also wanna know your main, but now that paddle lost it's jump cancels a lot of t&j play like that.

[trim zealot]

The devs gave us no choice. We were rewarded for approaching and using melee attacks back when we had combos. Ever since the jump branch got removed, it’s better to just zone with projectiles.

I also don’t get it when people complain about “spam” in this game. In addition to most characters just mashing jab, those who don’t usually rely on like 1 or 2 moves in neutral, and use the same combos the whole match. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing, as long as the combos are balanced. I didn’t mention moves being balanced because if people only use those same moves the whole game, they can usually be read and punished for it. The whole reason paddle got nerfed 3 times in a row is because people refused to adapt to T&Js who just spammed paddle the whole match.

[warped arrow]

Garnet

[warped arrow]

Garnet and that paddle is very hard to read due to the charge up capability it has on it so it can throw off the timing of counters and dodging. Not to mention the range it covers from back to front. When it comes to it it’s clear that certain characters aren’t balanced with their move set. Yet when those moves that are not balanced are abused then that’s when it becomes toxic and nerfs are heavily needed

[odd wadi]

In your case I think its because you're a bigger character but I think she's anti projectile. I feel you on the paddle thing though. The range on it is really it. You can't dodge in period. If they guess that you get caught and if you dodge away towards stage you'll get caught too

try jumping I think most people get away from me with that

but the projectile thing yeah they kinda dominate that horizontal space and pole can cover jumps when played right

[warped arrow]

Garnet size is one of her biggest weaknesses honestly. She suffers due to it from the lack of movement she can really do and the inability to dodge away fully from attacks like that. I’ve tried jumping yet her jump animation is sort of slow the only way I know to get away is from DI away but as you said can still get caught by it and if not then that’s when Jerry is shot and the whole process repeats. The arsenal T&J have is super suppressive. I get that they are mage based yet even the other mages projectiles aren’t as oppressive as T&J are not to consider that they also have pretty fast melee. It’s crazy that you’re actually a pretty cool T&J player that doesn’t down play the moves that they possess and how difficult they can be to deal with. I appreciate your feedback on my statement. If possible I’d like to spar with you if you still play T&J so I can work on gaining better match up knowledge

[odd wadi]

Yeah a lot of the people in here downplay them. They just want the jump cancel back which will likely bring loops for em back. A couple people here just want more consistent combos but they're a mage heavily reliant on setups. I don't think T&J is OP though I think they're really well designed and it warms my heart. This game just has poor movement and with paddle specifically it causes a lot of frustration with anyone playing the bigger characters. Playing Jason I just have to accept that imma get hit with 95% of the paddles they throw out. The jump thing isn't just you though. If you slow it down you'll see when characters jump (at least the toons) they stretch and that either stretches your hurtbox out or keeps your hurtbox in the same place it was until the stretch animation finishes.

Its hard for me to give any advice since I don't play garnet. If I can say one thing it'd be to just always expect Jerry shot is gonna get used if you run to them and to bait it as much as possible before you approach most Tom players. If they're the projectile spammer types try to setup song and get that bubble thingy she does.

[trim zealot]

Loops have been removed on most characters since the ground bounce change. The main issue with that is the cheese that Superman and Smith do all the time where they just react to where you tech roll. T&J were doing the same thing before the move lockout nerf. I don’t think the issue is paddle or the jump branch, but how slow the tech rolls are.

[odd wadi]

I want them to remove that tech roll or make it something you have to input. It just adds loops back in. Most of the characters i've fought almost all if not all have a loop combo they know and its not a true infinite for the smaller characters but Jason and Garnet get the bad end of it because they're always loopable. Even marvin has a loop and he's supposed to be the worst character in the game and I had found one that works with T&J long as you know the timing with Jerry shot for their knockback and can guess their roll you can hit them with cork and follow up on that with jabs or paddle

but yeah Smith is the most annoying with loops and I hate all the DC character except Joker. He's the only one that feels like they actually tried to balance and that's after the massive outrage at him being busted.

Raven i'm 50/50 on but all the disjoints and moves protecting her make it hard to punish anything she does. Like we gonna give all these characters moves that protect them from being hit/punished but Jason can't have disjointed grabs?? Nubia gets a half staged disjointed grab though? PPG get a disjointed grab that kills???

I'm here to support this game but who's making these balance decisions because nothing is consistent.

[trim zealot]

The only move I really hate in Raven’s kit is Nair. The other moves feel too weak, but Nair feels too strong.

Disjointed and safe combo starter/kill confirms.

It sucks because she only has like 2 other decent combo starters.

Side special and down tilt. The rest take too long, are too stubby, or are too situational.

[odd wadi]

THAT'S THE MAIN ONE yes. I can't figure out how I feel about the forward air. It feels like I hit my button and then as its about to connect she hits forward air and I get stuffed. Her keep away and combo game are good, but why does she have disjoints?? Mostly nair but yeah

I wanna play raven but I'm not too sure how much I wanna commit to learning another Mage.

the raven gets annoying too but I learned yesterday I can delete it with armor breaks

[trim zealot]

Wait, you can insta-kill Lenore with purple moves?

[odd wadi]

yep

was playing bugs bunny trying to get good in ranked and she was making life a nightmare

and I did his jab where he spins his hands and gone

so I kept doing it and yeah. armor breaks delete him

still lost but now I know 😂

[trim zealot]

That’s so helpful. Most Raven’s just hang back behind Lenore and punish you for trying to pass them.

Thanks for letting me know.

[odd wadi]

😎 no problem

I don't wanna hate raven so I'm huffing copium trying to learn to play against her

[odd wadi]

I gotta say jab jab jab into trap is funny

[fast zephyr]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1306358364032471061/1313924698249232445/image.png?ex=6751e73b&is=675095bb&hm=f23c031227a0fd4a8ce70e84aa89f8a35b107c0d7046a6f5ce645f16b81b238e&

i seriously hate this game

[trim zealot]

Because you beat Iron Giant?

[fast zephyr]

i was saying bc of the damage

but it wasnt that much now that i see it

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/786408928589512745/1313957145468993628/image.png?ex=67520573&is=6750b3f3&hm=6a058b784146ef9393308fdcdbaf0bc0483b33e2a9c33c2216a0bd661d0665e0&

ugghh im so close

[odd wadi]

👀

[fast zephyr]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1306358364032471061/1313978214477070356/image.png?ex=67521912&is=6750c792&hm=8eb74278c88accd728cfac2372adb9c6e2f9f8639774dce24487415ea08967c1&

omg i did it

[trim zealot]

Congratulations on top 100.

[wild spruce]

TnJ could EASILY be one of the best in game, however the devs nerfed all kill power. So even though we can still loop we lose advantage cus we kill at 140

[odd wadi]

With all the stage control they have i don't think it's an issue. They have so many ways to do things i don't buy it that they need buffs. If they get one cool better for me anyway but I say the character is fine

[coarse drift]

Just say we need a kill confirm not that we kill at 140

[odd wadi]

I don't buy that either.

I kill with fishing pole at 80 if they have bad DI and if you hit the sweet spot like you're supposed to you can kille between 80-110 depending on the stage and character

I don't remember when trap kills exactly but I know it can before 140 because I use it to kill a lot just because it's funny

[coarse drift]

I’m kinda confused on the point

[odd wadi]

Sorry. I don't buy the "we kill at 140" thing.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1009538859417215147/1278500780495601736/fishing_pole_kills.mp4?ex=67543563&is=6752e3e3&hm=9ef4eec8de27f0f7db2e453191e2db7a3b5810cf9c288b45e6d81cbe789d7432&

And I posted this a while ago to show fishing pole is good you just need to learn to use it

Because some people some certain people say it's a trash move when it's not.

If you're spamming jab fishing for paddle to trashcan lids yeah you'll kill around 120-140 or higher especially because of the anti spam. It's gonna nerf you and make you kill a little later

[coarse drift]

Oh yeah exactly whenever people complain about killing so late they should be saying that just don’t have a consistent kill confirm

Air up special kills at like 80

[odd wadi]

This too. Even when grounded if you know they'll dodge in or fall down to attack you use the grounded one

Probably won't kill at 80 grounded but 😂

[coarse drift]

Or just snipe people with Jerry off stage it’s funnier

[odd wadi]

Getting the cork finisher follow up too

Just to take away that sliver of hope they may have had and rob them of a jump

[minor bluff]

with bad DI up air kills at like 90 yeah but it depends on the stage too

dexter's lab is a pain to play for t&J

[dusty nova]

#clips the pain

[cyan whale]

Harley privilege

[dusty nova]

fr

[warped arrow]

Tom and Jerry is so broken it’s crazy I’ve never played with a character that was so easy to spam with lol I’ve been 3 stocking everyone all day lol I love playing with the Tom and Jerry and they are pretty much untouchable if you loop all of the projectiles the right way. Easiest wins I ever got lol

[trim zealot]

Now back to our regularly scheduled rage bait.

[fast zephyr]

now play against a shaggy, a GOOD superman, a rick or even garnet

add to that maps like dexter´s lab

or a big map

if you keep saying that tnj is broken having just 2 combos is bc you are just bad man

people dont use him to stall that much, im pretty sure most of us like to play with combos and agressive

[warped arrow]

Interesting you say that considering the number one player in this whole game right now is a Tom & Jerry main with the number 9 top player also being a Tom and Jerry main lol like cmon now. That seems to be proof enough of a pretty broken character 😂

[trim zealot]

I don’t see you picking on the #1 highest performing character, or anything in between 2 and 8. Even if T&J were good, your same logic would mean that other characters are even better, therefore more deserving of any nerfs. Why single out T&J?

[trim zealot]

This is even excluding the possibility (fact) that Hardcorefoxttv is just really good at the game.

[warped arrow]

Because T&J for one has the most suppressive and easiest kit to use. To downplay a character that shows the proof of literally being the number 1 character just isn’t right. People are toxic with the character knowing they have one of the best kits in the game then along with knowing the game is already unbalanced and people exploit it. It’s to help draw attention to one of the characters that have clear advantage in a game that shouldn’t be based around which character has the most natural advantage in a game like this.

[trim zealot]

Please explain what makes our kit so oppressive. There are other projectile characters with good neutral. Bugs bunny, Marvin, and Morty most notably.

[warped arrow]

I mean just look at the facts of the matter though harcorefoxttv has Tom & Jerry as the top 3 fighters in the whole game in 1’s and 2’s. Not having any other character ranked that high. In my opinion if he was so great at the game all together he would have multiple characters in high ranking spots but he doesn’t he only has T&J. Things like that shows that T&J are a very strong character and actually OP with the kit they have

[cyan whale]

Dude he plays a ton. Climbing the ranked ladder as a top player is purely a time investment. He’s put in the most time and therefore he is ranked the highest. Is prepatch Banana Guard completely broken because JMafia was rank 1 with him?

90% of the cast has the capability of reaching the top 1 spot if you grind hard enough

[warped arrow]

The difference Is that compared to the other mages most of their kit can be placed on cool down. While T&J kit doesn’t have a cool down on anything naturally. Only cool downs that T&J have is the mouse trap and Jerry if he is even killed or shot off stage but that cool down only lasts for around 15 seconds . Other than that it can be spam city with their whole kit and it’s virtually infinite cause their is not limit to how many times Tom and shoot Jerry which I may add that Jerry is an indestructible projectile when he is shot. It’s so many things that make T&J suppressive and OP and it’s clearly shown that it is by having the top player in both 1’s and 2’s ranked is a T&J player

[trim zealot]

You can’t base the entire assumption of T&J being overpowered or #1 in the game simply off of high ranking players. A character can be really good without competitive representation, and bad with competitive representation.

[trim zealot]

Wrong. Tennis balls and dynamite both have cooldowns, the only “projectiles” that don’t are up special rocket, and fishing rod.

[cyan whale]

Hardcorefox is the only notable T&J player I’ve seen in tournaments. This isn’t a T&J is broken thing. This is a Hardcorefox is a good player thing

[trim zealot]

In addition, 15 seconds (Jerry death) is a very long time in this game. Especially when having it off cooldown could be the difference between winning or losing neutral.

[warped arrow]

Even still though if you go look at his profile on the game the guy rarely ever loses. Regardless of how much time is invested the character itself has to have the initial abilities to be able to reach that high of a rank. Also considering how the RP system is designed now anyone that doesn’t play a ton can reach a super high ranked with enough wins. Also yes pre patch banana was completely broken and even now he is still kind of broken but just not as broken as he used to be

[cyan whale]

Tom without Jerry is arguably bottom 1 below Velma. It’s the same story with Lebron without ball. Jerry is the most important resource and Tom is absolutely defenseless without Jerry forcing him to have to try and run away for 15 seconds

[trim zealot]

Exactly, just capitalize on Jerry’s death and you’ll probably take the stock of the Tom, or at least get them to kill%.

[cyan whale]

When he had the stupid cancel window for utilt yeah, but JMafia was top 1 before Banana Guard got buffed

Like when you’re within the top 0.1% of players, it’s not really as much about your character as it is about capitalizing on your opponent’s bad habits

[warped arrow]

Well I guess out of all the times I’ve been hit with the barrage of those projectiles I missed them being on cool down cause I’m pretty sure I’ve never known for either of those to be on cool down. Every time Jerry is shot it’s tennis balls and corks flying my way right after even the rocket that homes in on Jerry. Also I wouldn’t consider the fishing rod to be a projectile since it’s something that has 2 hit possibilities and can be reeled back in

[cyan whale]

Obviously having a generally stronger character makes it easier to win, but like look at Smash where MKLeo was undefeated for like a whole year with a mid tier

[trim zealot]

Tom only gets 3 tennis balls after launching Jerry. Jerry only gets 3 corks after leaving Tom, before touching an ally. If Jerry touches Tom or an ally after being shot, they regain all the corks (or more if an ally picked them up). I also typed projectiles in quotation marks specifically for fishing rod, since it’s a pseudo projectile.

[cyan whale]

Is Melee Roy suddenly a top tier because Zain has been able to win sets off of other top players with him?

[warped arrow]

You’re not wrong about that but it’s just the fact of it being true. Cause how can you look at a character being so highly ranked but then thinking of this character not being that good? It makes no sense. If harcorefox had other characters in realy high ranks then could say you’re mostly right but the fact that it’s his only character placed so high should tell that T&J is just a super character

[trim zealot]

Or they main T&J and like playing them?

[cyan whale]

You’re basing your entire argument on one top player. If there were multiple T&J players winning tournaments, then I’d agree and say T&J is a top tier but he’s just not. One player isn’t enough to change a character’s general tier list position

And the other thing is you’re basing this off of ranked which is inherently flawed. 99% of the ranked playerbase is nowhere close to tournament level

[warped arrow]

Well that’s the thing he’s the only one you’ve seen. There are plenty of other highly ranked T&J players on this game and looking on the leaderboard there are currently 6 GM T&J players in 2’s and 3 GM players in 1’s. With the numbers I’ve put together so far T&J has the highest number of players at GM. Don’t get me wrong hardcore is definitely a good player but there are also other good T&J players too because they know what T&J are capable of

[cyan whale]

2’s is entirely different. T&J is significantly better in 2’s because he can rely on a partner to protect him while he provides support completely mitigating his weakness

[trim zealot]

That doesn’t mean that T&J is one of the best characters in the game, the leaderboards change frequently. If you monitor competitive usage in tournaments, you’d find little to no competitive T&Js with frequently good placements. Compare that to Agent smith, WW, or Superman, who all have a lot of good representation in the competitive scene, with numerous high level players using them.

[cyan whale]

Also, the threshold to get into grandmasters is barely more than getting to masters 1 because it’s so early in season 4

[trim zealot]

Also 2s is a different game compared to 1s. Like Hoagieland said.

[cyan whale]

Don’t forget Shaggy, Harley, and Arya

Now if you wanted to argue that T&J is better at mid level play because people don’t exploit his weaknesses as easily as top players do, that’s a different story

But most people make tier lists looking at top level

If you’re talking about primarily gold and platinum players (aka where the majority of the playerbase is in ranked), then sure I could see an argument for T&J being high tier with people aimlessly running into paddle and having terrible dodge habits T&J can capitalize on to make people explode

But unless you’re genuinely a top player, you’re not making T&J win in tournaments without serious bracket luck

This is coming from someone who has and continues to play competitive Smash for almost 10 years now

[dusty nova]

There's like e 2 tnjs in top 100 dawg vs shaggys superman's wonderwomans rick and batman ofc the top tom is 1#

[open crypt]

after fighting some tom and jerry and being a tnj player

yeah he deserverd those nerfs

[wild spruce]

make ragebait great again

this game butt anyway we on marvel rivals now

[warped arrow]

Even if it’s only 2 tnj up there you can’t ignore the fact of them being the number #1 character on that list. You can’t honestly down play a character placed in the top spot out of 30 other characters and thousands of players. It’s cause tnj is the kind of character that can easily reach that kind of potential due to how they are made. You’re thing to refute facts with other facts that aren’t relevant when the main point is that tnj fully holds the top rank in the world because tnj is just that OP

[warped arrow]

Trolling a rage baiter is crazy lol

[warped arrow]

Yeah most people have gravitated towards Marvel Rivals now lol if anymore games like it come out the devs will have to speed up the release of the next mid season patch

[odd wadi]

I think tom & Jerry are definitely A tier.

But peeps swear they're bad.

[cerulean cliff]

So technically this character is buffed

By virtue of Jerryshot breaking shields

[cyan whale]

Wait does Jerry shot actually break shields?

[cerulean cliff]

Heavy projectiles ignore them now

[cyan whale]

Yeah but Jerry has always been in this weird limbo state of both being and not being a heavy projectile

Like every heavy projectiles will armor break except Jerry shot

[cerulean cliff]

They also made it so anything resistant to them doesnt work anymore

The only defense that works is a "deflect" like Black Adam's bubble

But if that mouse is flying through the air now he may as well be invincible

[cyan whale]

I mean, you can still kill Jerry by dealing like 12 damage

[cerulean cliff]

Well of course

[cyan whale]

Oh you mean while he’s traveling

[cerulean cliff]

Yes the actual projectile that is his body in mid-air

I assume now if people are conditioned to shield dynamite and tennis balls, that's when you break it with Jerryshot and go to town

[subtle lotus]

They added shields

And they didnt add buff for T&J

This character is 100% bottom 1 nos

[subtle lotus]

Jerry shot is not an shield breaker

It doesn't have the purple aura

Even if he's an heavy projectile

We are definitely cooked

[cerulean cliff]

Oh is that how they classify it now

If so then never mind, GGs fellas

[subtle lotus]

Ggs to everyone

We finally got totally killed

It was an pleasure to play this character but simply with shiekd implemention also with no changes to this character that alr was an bottom 2 or 1

Lit they killed him

Theres no projectiles now

No combos

No kill confirm

No advantage

The worst disadvantage

And he dies at 50

This is the must gutted character in the game

Ggs to everyone

[cerulean cliff]

Bottom 2 was a stretch but this does take him down from all high tier debates

[cyan whale]

T&J isn’t the only character that was basically removed this patch

I guess I’m going to become a Jason main now because Shaggy jab doesn’t combo into anything anymore, so he literally has zero combos other than jab 1,2,3. Like you joke about T&J not having combos when he at least has paddle to uair or Jerry shot into something. With the jab change, Shaggy is likely debatably bottom 3 now

[cerulean cliff]

I would think all mages/zoners have some shield breaking projectile to give them an edge

But its only... checks notes

Bugs and Marvin

Then randomly Shaggy and Taz

[cyan whale]

Does Rick polymorph go through shields?

[cerulean cliff]

Good question

[cyan whale]

Super sandwich and anvil are pretty trash tho. Both move so slow and are extremely easy to avoid with no way to combo into either of them

Beta Taz anvil was legitimately one of the best projectiles in the game

[cerulean cliff]

Oh I remember

[cyan whale]

But I really don’t understand why PFG is going down this route of destroying characters by making them so bland and boring that no one wants to play them anymore

[cerulean cliff]

He won the MU in beta from anvil alone lmao

[subtle lotus]

This is probably the bottom 1

We got nothing after this patch

Every way to do smth was obliverated with the shield update

This character is useless

Need some serious buffs

Or an huge rework

[cyan whale]

I think Velma and Iron Giant are still worse

Velma also got nerfed by shields and Iron Giant has received nerfs for like the 7th patch in a row

[dusty nova]

Tom is a character that can be outplayed as of late brov he lost his jump cancel paddle into mallet and frames tho it is undeniable the top player is a tnj tho he specifically has had that spot for like 3 seasons he's a good player

[sturdy yarrow]

Another patch where tom gets nothing

[sturdy yarrow]

They've actually nerfed him with the introduction of shields

[subtle lotus]

Yk underdogs exist

Now his undeniable the worst in the game

[fast zephyr]

omg no buffs

At least they kinda nerf a lot of characters

Except for velma, velma mains are celebrating

[acoustic belfry]

at the bright side no nerfs

Then why are you here?

[flint juniper]

Because I want to understand this character.

[acoustic belfry]

who do you main?

[subtle lotus]

All you need to understand is that the character is the worst in the game

They eliminated every way to actually play the game with this character by nerfs and the shield implemention

[acoustic belfry]

they actually need a buff, even small buff like making the jerry rocket being armor breaking will make a huge difference

[odd wadi]

I love this actually

[sturdy yarrow]

Add the hitbox back to Jerry after Rocket

[flint juniper]

I play Nubia, Jack, and Raven.

[flint juniper]

Well I have had so much “stuff” thrown at me all at once many times. Like that little foot rocket and dynamite sticks and tennis balls and Jerry flying

I get ground bounced from the projectile

Dair up air

[subtle lotus]

Yea and woth the addition of shields

You dont have to care about anythinf

[subtle lotus]

The projectiles don't ground bounce

[flint juniper]

Well they did. Idk about now but maybe it was Jerry

Slingshot

[subtle lotus]

Jerry is the one who groundbounce

[flint juniper]

Ok

[subtle lotus]

Only down angle jerry shot can do thqt

Must of the time that's it

[flint juniper]

So, tennis balls fly diagonal when shot at floor, it covers a lot

[subtle lotus]

Also the character was alr bottom tier

Now he's worst

[flint juniper]

Idk man. I’ll see

[subtle lotus]

Bro dodge exist

[subtle lotus]

All of his combos got removed

Theres no window for projectiles

[flint juniper]

Can’t dodge 5 projectiles

[subtle lotus]

You can get rush down after you use one

[subtle lotus]

You can dodge throught projectiles

He cant shoot one after other wall of projectile

[flint juniper]

I can but once I do the player knows that I will and already set it up

[subtle lotus]

Ok so try to parry it and thats all

Or you can just jump it

T&J has horrible anti airs

He got cooked

[cerulean cliff]

Ya'll know there are anti projectile perks right

[subtle lotus]

Like bruh

This community skill its on the floor

The character its alr the worst in the game with no doubt

And I don't think we will get buffed anyway

Even if the character is unplayable with shield implementation

Everything about T&J its pumishable

And even more considering he has the worst disadvantage in the game

Horrible frame data on whiff

Hes light as hell so you day at 50

He has no combos

Avoiding projectiles its as easy as shielding

His shield breaker its trash

His kill power its at 150 or 180

And his only good tool is down air

That's all

Bc now jerry dies of 1 or 2 hits

Its really easy to kill him

For every character

[cerulean cliff]

We're not worse than Velma because that character still doesn't have a coherent gameplan

[flint juniper]

We’ll paddle is a good anti air

[flint juniper]

Naw. Especially with dodge attack being buffed he must have

[cerulean cliff]

Nothing links into or out of paddle anymore, that kinda was his combo game

At best he has links off of Jerryshot but his jab is still not good

[subtle lotus]

No has like 25 frames of whiff

[subtle lotus]

Nope

That changes nothing

Dodge attacks change approach not combo

Also this character has 0 iad combo

So ye

Lit nothing

[flint juniper]

Sure, but he isn’t stationary

[subtle lotus]

That doesn't matter

[subtle lotus]

You can freaking cancel shield into whiff punish

And parry

And shield breaker

So even using paddle its the worst idea

Using any attack on T&J its the worst idea

Everything its counterable

Like they did nothing to the character

He's 100% the worst

[flint juniper]

Can’t use shield in air.

[subtle lotus]

But you can in the floor

Like half of the good stuff for T&J its on the floor

And all its punishable

Also rushing down in the air its the worst idea posible bc of shielding

And if we are facing both sides in the game

Ik the other character should win

[fast zephyr]

Is tnj really that bad with shields?

Ive been playing some matches, and it feels good actually

Shaggys now suffer

And since i dont use tennis balls that much, it doesnt really affect me

The only thing is that is very easy to avoid slingshot jerry

But i think thats all imo

[odd wadi]

Probably not it's just always been doom and gloom in here since the paddle nerf.

I haven't played because of marvel rivals but they're probably still fine. If weaker only a little bit and once people adapt to shields it probably won't be so bad

[fast zephyr]

yeah

i also think that

a character that does feel strong now is Nubia

is a menace

[odd wadi]

Because of the grab?

[fast zephyr]

yep

it breaks shield

and she can do it in the air

[finite quiver]

No actually I think he has really good shield pressure utilizing projectiles

If you get a good setup you can deal a lot of damage to the dodge meter and force a different option

Jerry is most likely gonna die more often but playing without J-shot has become easier ever since the change to racket happened

Just gotta play ya cards right

[warped arrow]

You seriously think and OP character like T&J needs a buff? 😂😂😂

[fast zephyr]

it does

not a buff like damage

but kill confirms and more combos

its way too dificult to kill with tnj

and without jerry is even worse

[warped arrow]

T&J has several kill confirms. Jerry shot can be, Air up lid clap, the down spike, even his sair can kill. Also the projectile combos are plentiful

[fast zephyr]

jerry slingshot is not a kill confirm

it doesnt kill even at 130

kill confirm is like the up special from shaggy

and the projectile combos is way too dificult to perform, even more now with the shields

[subtle lotus]

Bro its common sense

Like your going well bc your opponent simply don't khow the counter that's all bruh

[odd wadi]

Its not you're just bad and I'm not responding to you anymore

[subtle lotus]

Every single stuff on T&J can be shield and punished

[subtle lotus]

Is not about being bad stupid

Ita about the opponent

[odd wadi]

Being better than you yes

[subtle lotus]

No

I didnt lose an single time

Its about the opponent knowing how to play an pfg

Like it's as simple as that

[odd wadi]

Didn't lose but demanding buffs makes a lot.of sense.

[subtle lotus]

Shield when its needed

[subtle lotus]

He needs them tho

Not losing dont make the character good

The matchmaking system in this game its horrible

Like I fought like 20 times lonelydripp dang it

I'm used to play with top players

But I dont like the actual state of T&J against pro players

[odd wadi]

He does not and they'd have given any if needed. The only real argument you could make is hardly anyone got big changes. Tom is fine you're going to get over it or move on or scream until they change em under the pressure

[subtle lotus]

Its really uncomfortable and hard

[subtle lotus]

Hes not fine bruh

He lit has the worst disadvantage in the game

He has 0 combos

Like everything it's uncosistent

You got 0 kill confirms

Your uncosistent too

Your killing % almost all the time it's around 150 and 180%

Bc after the opponent passes 80-100 you cant confirm paddle into up air or down air into up air

Its basically an donkey kong right grab, up and up air but with the character being even weaker killing and comboing

Also the counterplay on projectiles it's even better

With shielding

Paddle its one of the worst option you could do

Lit if you rush with paddle and the opponent shields that is really easy

He has like 25 frames of whiff to punish

Jerry its very destructable

And being so light that most of the time your dying percentage are 50-90

Its awfull

And people like you still says they need nothing

Your stupid and delusional

Your only trying to say that im bad to have an actual argument against all of this

Bruh

There frame data its horrible and the no combo and no kill confirm state

Its horrible

Also worst disadvantage no jerry gives you an really bad disadvantage

You cant get from most of the situations without him

So don't yap

[trim zealot]

Dang. Like 2 or 3 paragraphs now.

[subtle lotus]

Ye man I'm sick of it

This stupid players on mvs are making me sick

Like they thing they are good in an game made for casuals

Theres no balance here

They don't balance T&J bc casuals hate them

That's all dont yap

[trim zealot]

I find that highly dependent on the matchup. I’ve swapped over to Raven for a bit now, and there are some characters that really make you work (and vice versa).

[subtle lotus]

The game skill is not that high

The game ain't balanced

Anyway

[trim zealot]

I don’t disagree that the devs tend to pander to casual players often, but the shield change is to the whole cast, and having a projectile that just denies it is really good.

[subtle lotus]

Devs do nerfs and buffs bc casuals yap

Like how do you think we got no buffs and we got nerfed 2 times in a row

Bc of casuals coming everyday to this chat and complaining about being bad

I was trying to teach them how to play against them

And only one learned something

Only to avoid paddle into up air

Like the correct di

To avoid paddle into up air or side air

[trim zealot]

I’m holding out hope the devs will decide to make less majority vote changes, and that T&J get buffed too. I only want T&J buffs because they used to be super cool though. Actually having combos and not completely relying on projectiles was great.

[subtle lotus]

Just rework them

[trim zealot]

I won’t speak on T&J viability atm because I haven’t played them myself, but I do think competitively, they are way worse than before.

[subtle lotus]

Like no casual would be fine with an buff on this character

They just yap not learn

[subtle lotus]

Ofc he's not

[odd wadi]

Ironic coming from the person saying they know things because they beat top 100 players 😂😂😂

[subtle lotus]

An complete rework

[trim zealot]

I think time is best spent elsewhere for the devs. T&J were balanced after loops were removed.

[subtle lotus]

I play often against the top 100

[odd wadi]

This could be a legit reason I'll give you that

[subtle lotus]

But that's an selected group of people

Not like people like you

Who didn't hit diamond

I only play against the top 20 global

And I don't play this game anymore

Theres no balance

Even if this character is the bottom 1 right now

[trim zealot]

You only play against top 20 global, but don’t play?

[subtle lotus]

Ik he will stay this place

[subtle lotus]

Like when I used to play

My mmr was always high

But well...

This game right now is not at the best state like shield implemention is good

But they need balancing changes

Manual tech bounce

[odd wadi]

When you think you're so high and mighty you don't know you're talking to a diamond 😂

[subtle lotus]

The game should be like smash

Yes

Smash ultimate

[trim zealot]

Why?

[subtle lotus]

On mechanics they need it

Also manual ground bounce

No automatic that's useless

They need to focus on balancing the game better also

Making the movement no bars spending should be smth like meele in movement or smth like that

Like meele wavedashing and mechanics from meele

[trim zealot]

Some mechanics, yes, but it shouldn’t be similar to ultimate just because ultimate was good. Should battlefield be like call of duty because call of duty is good? (I don’t actually think COD is good, but this is just an analogy).

[subtle lotus]

And also add grabs

I'll like to see Mvs like an mix of meele and brawhalla tbh

I'm more experienced in brawhalla

I got diamond and 1000 hours hahahahaha

[odd wadi]

Battlefield is dead too and The Finals exists in its place hanging on so def not. Can't be too similar but similar enough and different

[subtle lotus]

But i stopped playing

It would be so cool man

Like an mix between brawhalla and meele

Meele movement

[trim zealot]

You get my point though? I mean to say that just because a game of a certain genre is good, doesn’t mean others should copy from it.

[subtle lotus]

Brawhalla more like gameplay speed and also the brawhalla balancing its really good

[trim zealot]

Take inspiration? Yes. But copy, no.

[subtle lotus]

Ye

But they need to give better tools to everyone

Like they are buffing only the characters they use

The devs favorites

While T&J it's on the trash

Like no one likes this character besides the mains

Everybody hates us

We won't get buff ever

[odd wadi]

Because y'all played like trash

[subtle lotus]

Nope

Bc they don't khow the counterplay

[odd wadi]

Loops all day and paddle spamming

Casual.game like you said 😂

[subtle lotus]

I really wanted to remove loops from this character

I made an complain balance changes for ajax

To stop the loops

But then we needed compensations

What they never did

That's why his so bad

[trim zealot]

Some did, yes. But most people abused up tilt because people just kept falling into it. Playing like smash bros. and jumping in all the time. Don’t blame the good players for abusing bad gameplay habits on the opponent’s side.

[odd wadi]

I got tired of people jumping because they saw pro players doing it so I just hit paddle too

[subtle lotus]

I hate paddle spam like it was horrible

[odd wadi]

Don't blame them for that I mean only using jab into paddle and Jerry shot

[subtle lotus]

But paddle it's really punishable

They should buff smth like his jab or smth

They nerfed everything

Like I think an rework

Should fix all of this

Remove every projectile from T&J make them the fastest character in the game

And make them an assassin or smth

[odd wadi]

Would hate that

[trim zealot]

That is also not something to blame players for. If there’s a loop in the game, players WILL abuse it no matter what. I’m technically guilty if you count that combo as a “loop” even though it was fairly short in comparison to other combo routes, and dealt less damage.

It also wasn’t infinite at that point.

Just a good damage combo.

But you are right that people chose the easiest and suboptimal route off up tilt.

[odd wadi]

On Jason and Garnet it was an infinite

Maybe superman but idk

[trim zealot]

I don’t think it worked on Superman.

[odd wadi]

I'm glad it's gone. Didn't like getting hit by it and makes me happy to beat the other tom players

I think from the start the goal was to have a character that was silly and as unpredictable as they are in the show

And they just wound being paddle into Jerry shot machines

Doesn't work now and my gameplay hasn't suffered from it

[trim zealot]

Only because people were jumping beans.

[trim zealot]

I do agree that it shouldn’t be infinite though.

Just a solid combo off the punish.

[odd wadi]

Paddle into forward air being made more consistent or an actual combo would be cool but even without that there's other options dependent on their di and percentage. Truthfully i don't even think I care what they really do to the character long as it's not nerfs or removing moves

The higher in ranks I get the more I start hating the game when I actually love it

[trim zealot]

Burnout?

[odd wadi]

They didn't consider defense when they made this game and relied too much on dodging to serve that

[odd wadi]

Probably I play this everyday all day when I do play

When I was bronze to gold it's variety when I'm platinum and diamond its just a DC snooze fest

[trim zealot]

I see. College limits my playtime so it’s easier to enjoy, especially now that I main another character.

[trim zealot]

Good thing I don’t play ranked.

[odd wadi]

407hrs . Casuals isn't fun because I just bully them, arenas isn't fun for similar reasons

Ranked is DC characters all day and I hate just about all of them

[trim zealot]

Oh I thought you meant disconnects.

[odd wadi]

Nah those are funny

When it's not DC it's whomever is considered the best character in the game

The more they try to cater to hardcore players the worse this game will get because casuals can't have fun, but the lack of defense ruins top.tier play especially for non meta characters

[trim zealot]

That sucks. It sounds like competitive play (tournaments) where it’s only the top tiers making good results consistently.

[odd wadi]

Its why people only come back for the beginning of seasons or events

It could be a good and fun game, but no defense and now people are whining that we have it because they can't just run back and forth until the opponent whiffs

[trim zealot]

This is so real.

The dash dancing was maddening, now it’s just funny to watch.

Unfortunately I don’t think shielding is quite the alternative we needed.

Leads to standing in place while the opponent is airborne more.

[odd wadi]

The dodge system imo has been the root cause of this game's problems. It's cool and fits the game from a cartoony design aesthetic, but it's not good for balance and it's why the combo system is also trash and we gotta rely on big heavy hits and crazy stun locks and loops

[trim zealot]

I think the dodge system was good in beta.

[odd wadi]

This too so now we need grabs

To give more fakeout/mixup optuons

[trim zealot]

Maybe they could reduce the amount of meter consumed by shield. Or change some attacks to be safer on shield.

[trim zealot]

Oops. Meant increase.

Not reduce.

[odd wadi]

Idk ive not even truly tested shields because every test was just people camping or not even trying to use em

And I've not played since the update.

Marvel rivals and fortnite have me locked in rn

[trim zealot]

I recently had a match against a super annoying shaggy who just empty hopped and shielded all the time.

Not difficult to beat. But I had to play super lame to beat it.

[odd wadi]

Thats sounds like it's annoying. Being a Jason or Nubia could make that easier

But highlights the point

Grabs would help make him stop

[trim zealot]

Definitely.

Not having global grabs while introducing shields seems like a major oversight to me.

[odd wadi]

Empty dodges need a limit and I don't remember fully the change but they changed dodge canceling right?

[trim zealot]

What specifically about it?

Like canceling out of a dodge or into one?

[odd wadi]

Idk I was thinking it using less meter for dodge canceling is glod to keep the aggression but increase the usage of meter for actual dodges

Then make burnout an even worse state to be in

So people can't continue running even when burned out

[trim zealot]

I love this idea. Only for dodges though. Shields should take more meter.

[odd wadi]

Its needs to actually be punishing to be burned out like it is for street fighter. They never revealed their incoming dodge nerfs but season 5 I guess

[odd wadi]

Yeah I think shields should take over for being the defense

Mostly

Less reliance on dodging

At least have it be an equal amount of dodging and shielding

[trim zealot]

I think the only reason burnout isn’t that bad is because most characters rely on it to some extent for combo extensions. So even though they’re in burnout, they still are in advantage.

Or IAD combos.

[odd wadi]

Well for combos it's fine I guess so you don't lose offense

[trim zealot]

Yeah. I’ve recently been experimenting with a playstyle where I just bait shields and dodges with empty hops or dash dances. Only works because people mash both all the time.

Burnout makes people play like their grandma’s gonna die if they lose or something though.

No offense at all, just run away until meter’s back.

[odd wadi]

Yeah this what I don't like but some characters are better at it than others is what makes it even worse

Regardless of all the issues I think if warner bros is committed to loving what they've made enough it can get to a good state

And win labor of love at the game awards one day 😂

Voted for it for best fighting game or something

Tbh I don't think it'll win but

Show my support either way

[trim zealot]

One day. I voted for labor of love I think. I honestly couldn’t vote it over rivals 2 for fighter though.

[odd wadi]

Thats fair they went from 1 to 2 and it was a pretty big jump

I didn't really like the first one. 2 looks like something I'd like gameplay wise but chatacters carry me

Only thing they've had that I like is Ori but I'm not crazy for their og characters

[trim zealot]

What don’t you like about them?

[odd wadi]

Movesets and designs

The elephant is the only one I sort of like

[trim zealot]

I’ll admit they are unique, and some unconventional.

Whereas Loxodant is like Ike but melee.

[odd wadi]

Its hard to make furries mass appeal

[trim zealot]

Would you prefer it if they were human?

[odd wadi]

Respect to the game though.

Furries are fine, I just dont like the designs

I mean I main tom so 😂

The animal bit isn't the problem truly.

[trim zealot]

What specifically about the designs don’t you like? I’m curious.

I have a couple I’m not a fan of, but it fits the story still.

Zetterburn and Forsburn I dislike the lack of proper clothes on, but I understand that zetterburn is meant to be like a gladiator or something and forsburn is an assassin, not that being shirtless is useful for being an assassin.

[trim zealot]

Now that I think about it, it’s likely forsburn isn’t wearing much because he was exiled, and didn’t have much time before being forced to leave the smoke village either.

[odd wadi]

I don't truly know maybe they're too simplistic but they feel like legit animals just walking or bigger. I do like Orcane just not the playstyle.

Its fun watching

[coarse drift]

Who is the the tom and jerry equivalent in rivals 2?

[acoustic belfry]

NGL, I suffered using shields at first, but after I did some settings I was cooking, her is what I recommend u in your moveset (explanation will be on xbox/playstation controllers):

neutral dodge(enables shield):LT/L2

Sheild breaker:RT/R2

Side dodge: keep it 🅱️ /⭕

[warped arrow]

Is it me or does TnJ have no whiff frames

[cyan whale]

It’s just you

All T&J’s aerials have whiff and same with his ground moves. It’s really only Jerry shot and tennis balls that don’t have whiff

[cerulean cliff]

Probably Fleet, but she just ate major nerfs for daring to be the only zoner in a game filled with PM Spacies and braindead Marth clone

[cerulean cliff]

Assuming you're not shielded to death, it looks short hop nair might be your best combo starter now

[coarse drift]

ah shame I don't really vibe with her design that much