Tom And Jerry

[cerulean cliff]

Why is he so fast now

[subtle lotus]

They lit eliminated every option from paddle in game

[cyan whale]

Don’t forget randomly running into JMafia in 1s

[subtle lotus]

It doesn't work as anything

[cerulean cliff]

Ah yes of course

[subtle lotus]

Also jab is horrible

[wanton tangle]

Hardcorefox can finally focus on his grades since hes dropping tnj 🙏

[subtle lotus]

With evefy character

[cyan whale]

I ran into JMafia once and lost so badly lol

[subtle lotus]

T&J got no options

They didn't compensate the characted

They just kill it

[cerulean cliff]

It's okay Rivals 2 is around the corner

[subtle lotus]

Ye

[cerulean cliff]

If Nubia doesn't click I'll put more time into that

[subtle lotus]

I want to go to the rivals communty

[cyan whale]

You’re so doom and gloom over one move getting nerfed

[subtle lotus]

Its competitive and not casual like this one

[cyan whale]

Do you honestly think that paddle is literally all T&J had?

[subtle lotus]

Also they aren't as toxic as this one

[cerulean cliff]

Brother

[subtle lotus]

Bro they nerfed everything

We got nothing

[cerulean cliff]

Name me one good grounded move, besides paddle

[subtle lotus]

Paddle was our only combo

[cerulean cliff]

Hard mode: Do not say Jerryshot

[subtle lotus]

Do not say jerry shot

You can one shot jerry

With every character

[cyan whale]

Neutral attack reflects projectiles and ground bounces

[subtle lotus]

Its trash

You got a lot of whiff frames

[cerulean cliff]

And how do we land this in neutral

[subtle lotus]

And its easy to dodge and punish

[cerulean cliff]

What are we hitting with first to make it ground bounce

[cyan whale]

Shaggy nair has a negative disjoint but everyone says it’s good

How does he land it in neutral?

[small topaz]

give him combos or whatever

i dont care

but we won with this

[subtle lotus]

We need combos

[cerulean cliff]

Answer the question

[subtle lotus]

We got nothing

[cerulean cliff]

What is his neutral plan

[subtle lotus]

We are lit Banana guard season q

[subtle lotus]

Projectiles

Then you got no combos

To defense yourself

As the second lightest character

[small topaz]

they did good with this but they should buffed anything else

[subtle lotus]

They did horrible

They shouldn't nerfed anything

[cyan whale]

Jerry shot, dair, potentially jab

[subtle lotus]

The combo was diable

[small topaz]

BUT

[subtle lotus]

Only 4 characters couldn't escape

They should adjust the hitbox and di and thats all

[small topaz]

doesnt justify

[cerulean cliff]

Did you miss the part where our jab doesn't function

[subtle lotus]

So every character cam escape

[cyan whale]

You keep insisting that only 4 characters couldn’t escape and that’s just not true

[subtle lotus]

Fr

[subtle lotus]

It was

Lit

[small topaz]

that could messed up everyone else

[subtle lotus]

You could mash up and di up

[cyan whale]

This is why I said potentially

[small topaz]

wdym adjust di

[cyan whale]

Never worked as Shaggy

[cerulean cliff]

There's no potential, it doesn't

[subtle lotus]

Like making those characters

Di out easier

[small topaz]

maybe but they are lazy af

[cyan whale]

And there’s no execution required for holding up and mashing dodge, so why couldn’t I escape?

[subtle lotus]

Bro dont compare T&J with Shaggy his totally an top 2 and your still complaining

[small topaz]

this is a good change but they should buff everything else

but

with nothing to compensate

they didnt cook

[cerulean cliff]

And dair is an aerial, a strong one, but still not a grounded move

[subtle lotus]

Fr, they lit decided to kill the character and thats all

[cyan whale]

You’re putting words into my mouth to pit me as some sort of chronic complainer

Stop it

[subtle lotus]

I want to see all this game die

After this trash patch

And see everyone complain

[small topaz]

tom and jerry is about to be the new jake

[cyan whale]

As far as I’ve seen, you’re the only one constantly complaining here

[subtle lotus]

Fr

[subtle lotus]

They can't nerf so hard an character with an disadvantage like him

And being so light

[cyan whale]

Then play a more aerial focused game then

[subtle lotus]

They are lit making T&J useless

[small topaz]

also tnj has the hard tag on its character

they should give him combos

[subtle lotus]

Fr

[cyan whale]

He has combos

[subtle lotus]

No

[cerulean cliff]

He has "hard" listed purely because Jerry by himself is something most newbies can't manage

[small topaz]

but paddle nerf is kinda justified

[cyan whale]

Gogeta just wants paddle combos specifically

[subtle lotus]

Let me tell you all the combos

[lost violet]

Had

[subtle lotus]

Are like 6

Down air into side air

Down air into up air at high percents

Jab 3 into d tilt on low percents

Jab 1 into d tilt high percents

Paddle last hit into up air depending on di

[open crypt]

as a taz player

[subtle lotus]

Paddle last hit into side air depending on di

[open crypt]

im gonna say

how

[subtle lotus]

And thats it

[cyan whale]

Jerry shot into Jerry paddle into uair

[subtle lotus]

Is not true

[cyan whale]

So clearly that’s not it

[subtle lotus]

Jerry cant combo into himself

[cyan whale]

Dude

[subtle lotus]

He dont have that much combos

Lit jerry shot is like his combo starter as an variation

[cyan whale]

Do you not know that Jerry’s tennis racket for hitting back tennis balls has a hitbox that can combo?

[subtle lotus]

But the essential combos are what i said

[subtle lotus]

That can be di

Is not true

Maybe if the made that have bigger hitbox or smth

[cyan whale]

Ok don’t land Jerry shot from half the stage length or more and try to combo then

[subtle lotus]

I lit dont do that

Its an begginer error

[cyan whale]

Then why are you saying you can’t combo?

[subtle lotus]

You cant do that on an high lv match

[cerulean cliff]

Do you know how to set that up in the middle of an intense match

[subtle lotus]

That's right now

Theres nothing

[cerulean cliff]

You cannot use tennis without shooting Jerry first

[subtle lotus]

I'm at masters 2 with him

He was good

[cerulean cliff]

Shooting Jerry recklessly gets him killed

if Jerry dies, you lose half your entire kit

[cyan whale]

Yes, you confirm Jerry racket out of Jerry shot

[subtle lotus]

Atleast you could connect up air into jerry shot on bad di or specific character and get an ground bounce tech

Now you have nothing

[cyan whale]

And then follow up with an aerial

[subtle lotus]

Jerry Racket can follow aerials

But its really hard to hit

Also it doesn't combos

[open crypt]

how is this character still getting nerfed while others that are more annoying are in the vas mayority scott free

[subtle lotus]

Fr

[cerulean cliff]

Because complaining wins, but what else is new

[subtle lotus]

Its unfair

[cyan whale]

Like I said, T&J needs buffs to compensate and he didn’t get them for some reason

He should’ve

[cerulean cliff]

So you understand why this sucks, what is there to bargain with what's left

[cyan whale]

They should’ve made his jab better for starters

[subtle lotus]

They should bring back the jerry jump branch window and jerry shot paddle

[lost violet]

The blind complaints outnumbered any need for a buff

[subtle lotus]

And make jerry one shot by armored moves

And delay corks

[cyan whale]

Jerry having armor breaker would be insanely OP

[subtle lotus]

No

[cyan whale]

He’s already the best projectile in the game

[subtle lotus]

He dies with an armored move

[cyan whale]

Oh I see what you’re saying now

[subtle lotus]

And the corks are delayed

But they got to bring back the combos

[open crypt]

pfg is a competent developer....

[cerulean cliff]

His only armor breaking move is down tilt but it goes nowhere even when charged

Adding to his list of non functional grounded attacks

[open crypt]

imo best proyectile is morty's grenade

[cyan whale]

That one is close, but it’s not nearly as versatile as Jerry shot

[open crypt]

morty grenade can hitstun you, and having a short initial knockback morty can easily attack you and the explosion...do i need to say more?

[cyan whale]

Morty grenade got a knockback scaling nerf this patch, so maybe it won’t randomly kill at 40 now

[subtle lotus]

Jerry shot is versatile but can get one shot and grenades got huge khockback and early kills

[cyan whale]

Jerry shot has significantly more burst range, combos, interacts with tennis balls to make more projectiles, and has decent health

[subtle lotus]

They should bring back our combos and make the di even harder also making jerry getting one shot by armored moves

Then make corks startup frames reduced to deal with armored moves

Then add repetitive lockout

Bigger hitbox to the tennis hit

[cyan whale]

Like the only reason Morty grenade is as good as it is is because you randomly die at 40 to it which is just awful game balance

[cerulean cliff]

Jerryshot is good because its a "heavy" projectile

[subtle lotus]

The game still has awful balance

[cyan whale]

They should make it more like beta where he can spawn and split more grenades but they’re weaker overall

[cerulean cliff]

Something that only Bugs' safe and rocket share

[subtle lotus]

You can see it looking at the patch notes and see wonder woman getting almost no changes

[cyan whale]

This too

[subtle lotus]

And T&J getting gutted

[cerulean cliff]

The WW agenda is craaaazy

[cyan whale]

Morty grenade loses to every other projectile

[cerulean cliff]

But that's not news

[cyan whale]

Even Rick charged laser iirc

[cyan whale]

Shaggy super sandwich too

[subtle lotus]

They lit keep ig the same tho

[cyan whale]

But super sandwich is awful

[subtle lotus]

And he was an cheese machine

Also the n special got inf khockback

[cyan whale]

Really slow, low damage, ok kill power, consumes rage entirely

[subtle lotus]

Nah bro

Is not like that

It seems that you didn't faced an good ig

[cyan whale]

Don’t you dare say super sandwich is good lmao

[subtle lotus]

I played lonelydripp 20 times

I'm tired of this

[cyan whale]

Wait what are you even talking about?

[subtle lotus]

IG

[cyan whale]

I’m talking about Shaggy super sandwich

Not IG

[subtle lotus]

Oh idk about shaggy

He was definitely top 2 after the recent patch

Didn't saw his recent changes

[cyan whale]

I was responding to Sonicfeind that Shaggy super sandwich is also a heavy projectile, but the move is awful so you never see it used

[cyan whale]

They removed weaken on rage kick and added more whiff lag to jab

[subtle lotus]

Well

[cyan whale]

Totally fair nerfs

[cerulean cliff]

Forgot about super sammich

[subtle lotus]

Our jab is worst now

[cerulean cliff]

I used it every once in a while messing around in 2s

[subtle lotus]

This character got to be one of the lamest characters now

I hope they really rework him

And make him atleast b tier

[cyan whale]

No, that’s still Velma

[subtle lotus]

Nah

Then T&J its at the second place

[cyan whale]

Like legitimately trying to play Velma in ranked is one of the most masochistic experiences I’ve had in a while

[subtle lotus]

T&J will be an masochistic experience after this one

[cyan whale]

She has literally no combos

[subtle lotus]

He received the banana guard treatment

People complained way to much about him

Now he's dead

[cyan whale]

Her only combos are literally

1. jab jab utilt
2. Dair into another aerial at mid to high percents
3. Down special into a single aerial

[subtle lotus]

Jab jab up tilt is not trie

Teue

[cyan whale]

It is

[subtle lotus]

Up tilt is not true at any sense

Ofc is not

Bruh

[cyan whale]

Dude I’m talking Velma

Not T&J

[subtle lotus]

Oh yeah

[cyan whale]

Hence her

[subtle lotus]

Well T&J is ghdfd

There

[subtle lotus]

Sry didn't read the pronoun

[cerulean cliff]

Anyway, I'll see what can be salvaged tomorrow after work

[subtle lotus]

Il try to look at smfh

Smth but theres nothing

[cyan whale]

I want to experiment with T&J to find stuff that people missed by exclusively going for paddle combos

[subtle lotus]

They should give to this character atleast one combo

[subtle lotus]

Theres nothing

[cyan whale]

But the network adapter in my PC died

[subtle lotus]

Alr explored everything

Prove it on every di

[cyan whale]

So I literally do not have internet access on my PC

[cerulean cliff]

That's rough

[cyan whale]

Yeah I gotta wait a week for a new one to ship

[subtle lotus]

T&J got no routes besides paddle that's why people complains about this changes

[cyan whale]

It broke on Friday

[subtle lotus]

Alr experimented with him

Nothing

[cyan whale]

People always miss stuff

[subtle lotus]

Nah I covered everything

Atleast everything that its true

Maybe some dodge read sequence with racket

Or jerry shot could be perform

But that sounds horrible

[cyan whale]

While everyone was doing jab jab stomp loops with Shaggy in beta, I was pioneering jab jab dair combos

[subtle lotus]

Having lit no combos it's really aad

Sad

[cyan whale]

I’m certain T&J probably has some IAD combos that have just not been found yet

[subtle lotus]

Ik how banana guard feels now

[subtle lotus]

Nope

Ain't true

Theres nothing bro

Nothing true atleast

[cyan whale]

I’ll be the judge of that next weekend

[subtle lotus]

This character will be like scythe in brawhalla

[subtle lotus]

Brother i alr prove it

Atleast non true combo

Besides what i said

Maybe you could get some reading sequences

Or smth like that

T&J would work like scythe in brawhalla, no combos

[lost violet]

You gotta give video proof at this point

[cyan whale]

I’ll experiment and find something I’m sure

[subtle lotus]

100% reads

[cyan whale]

And I’ll give video proof

[subtle lotus]

Ok

[subtle lotus]

I will show you everything true

Like an true combo on every di

I got to tell ya

Its almost nothing

But ok

You got to discover on some mix ups and set ups

That's the most important part

Don't focus on combos

We got none

Try on dodge sequences

Staggers

And set ups

With jerry

@cyan whale

[cyan whale]

I will try everything I can think of

And see if I can make it consistent

[subtle lotus]

Theres no true combo besides what I said

Do not waste your time believe me

Try to find an insane set up

Like void did

[cyan whale]

If someone like Bhands can find insanely niche but powerful combos and setups with Rick, I’m sure I can with T&J given enough time

[rose agate]

whats in your opinion the best skin for tnj

[lost violet]

You’re probably gonna need till the next patch

[cyan whale]

That’s fine. I’m 2 ranks away from reaching master again with Shaggy and I was planning on experimenting with other characters anyway

[lost violet]

Not saying you aren’t good enough to find something, but they gutted him so much I’m not too optimistic

[cyan whale]

I have faith

With someone more simple like Shaggy or Taz or Jack, there’s only so much you can do

But with someone with the projectile game of T&J, there’s no way I won’t be able to find something

[subtle lotus]

I could find the tech and mix up

I was the guy who shared the paddle into jump jerry shot

On the serv

In season 2

With koko

I'm an masters 2 T&J, i dont have enough time to reach grandmasters

But alr faced tons of them

[cyan whale]

I was the guy who found the jab stomp infinite for Shaggy against Jack before they removed it with auto tech

[subtle lotus]

I got void left

Hardcorefox

Bhands

And some other pros

But i fought most

[cyan whale]

I haven’t been playing MVS enough lately

[subtle lotus]

I will give this chat some news if i find an new set up

[cyan whale]

Been playing a lot of other games because ranked can just be frustrating at times

[subtle lotus]

But would probably be ti precise

Like some set ups that needs an dodge read or smth like that

Remember bc the character got no combos

We need to read consistently

[cyan whale]

Almost every character can get a lot of mileage off of reads tho

[subtle lotus]

Except this one

Our magic were on true combos

[cyan whale]

T&J isn’t the exception here

[subtle lotus]

And most of the cast too

We dont have good stuff on reads right now the paddle got nerfed

[subtle lotus]

On the season 3 release he was an reading machine

Really fun to play him

[cyan whale]

Yeah because you just reaction tech chase the entire game

[subtle lotus]

They should rework the groundbounce tech and make it manual and revert the T&J changes

That would resolve everything

All the characters similar to T&J

Lit everything

[cyan whale]

Making ground bounces exclusively manual like Smash will not fix anything

It just means worse players get steamrolled by loops again

And better players just still reaction tech chase

It solves nothing

Not to mention that manual teching would kill every ground and wall bounce combo

Your staple dair to uair would now not be a true combo anymore

Because people could just tech

[subtle lotus]

Bro I'm talking about manual teching after 2 groundbounces

It seems that you didn't played amash

Smash

Bc it isn't like reacting or smth

You can stay at the ground and avoid hitboxes

For example racket, paddle or smth like that

So you won't get pulled in combo

Also when you recovery you will be back with some invincibility frames to counter spam

[fleet bronze]

Well I read the patch notes. Time to only play Tom in 2s now....

Now I don't know who to play in 1s...

[rigid burrow]

Bro, can somebody tell me what are those T&J changes? Idk if I didn't understand it,​ but​ bro​ for​ what do I wanna hit a paddle Just to put a trap on? Or to bow a fishing Rod? 😭😭😭😭😭.​ bro​ Just let​ us​ jump,​ T&J​ feel​ so bad​ now 😔

[sturdy yarrow]

Well might be time to main Smith. Why do they keep taking stuff away from Tom without giving him anything back ?

[acoustic belfry]

Guys, you saw the patch notes right?

I think the paddle is now a bit stronger

Since we can cancel it, even though it has limitations

[raven onyx]

So yall what happened with TnJ i dont understand

[sturdy yarrow]

Why am I today years old and just realising the corks and tennis balls fly in the direction you are holding at the time you hit them 🫠

[slender matrix]

Play defensive -> the developers will not like it -> they buff the tnj to make him more agressive

[subtle lotus]

Instead they will nerf him even more and give him no compensations

Pfg sucks

[raven onyx]

Yeaa i knew thats gonna happen

[cerulean cliff]

Other way around

[cerulean cliff]

They took away Paddle > Jerryshot, so now we can only cancel on hit into other specials and down tilt for some reason

aka time to camp EVEN MORE

[raven onyx]

Im done bro.

[cerulean cliff]

see me in Rivals 2 brother

[cerulean cliff]

Rereading everything in full, I think Rick is just better TnJ if I'm being honest

All the new Meeseeks control options and redirecting his own projectiles with them

But also has usable close quarters options

[trim zealot]

It’s so over.

They just doubled down on removing all our combos.

Like wtf am I supposed to do with GROUND UP SPECIAL?

The only true combo from paddle now should be fishing rod if I read correctly, but it doesn’t even hit the sweet spot so there’s not even a kill confirm off of it.

It bugs me because all they had to do was make it so there’s a Jerry shot lockout for 0.X seconds, then allow jump branch and moves like racket. Instead they just completely gutted the only thing paddle had going for it.

[fathom wadi]

What actually is this

They are buffing HARLEY

how can they just continue to do this

[trim zealot]

Yep.

I was preparing a whole paragraph about the same issue.

This patch sucks. All the changes I read that were supposed to be fine tuning to over performing characters don’t seem that significant, and more mid tiers are inching towards problematic A-S tiers. Like gizmo did not need any buffs, and Batman’s nerfs won’t make any difference.

I didn’t finish it, but I think it gets the point across.

[fathom wadi]

Like this is ridicolous

How is velma even

[trim zealot]

She just got one change.

One of her projectiles ignores platforms.

Just one of them.

[cyan whale]

Batman nerfs likely will absolutely matter. They removed his loop by not allowing him to cancel dtilt anymore. And he had a true loop without ground bounce

[trim zealot]

But his true combos are still nuts, even without a loop.

[cyan whale]

I don’t think he’ll be top 1 after this patch, but we’ll see

[trim zealot]

I predict he’ll still be S tier, just below Harley now though.

[fathom wadi]

I want to like this game but then they just continue to make it so unfun

I guess i main batman now cause that's the only way to have fun

[trim zealot]

Why have T&J become the communities punching bag?

Why can’t it even be split between characters? I’m pretty sure T&J get the most hate out of any.

[cerulean cliff]

Its a consequence of current devs not knowing what to do with anybody who isnt rushdown

[fathom wadi]

Yeah

[cyan whale]

No, that’s IG still

[fathom wadi]

The devs and community don't know how to deal with zoners

[trim zealot]

Fr? People still complain about them, the combo food?

[cyan whale]

Which is why IG is still getting nerfed while he’s already only mid tier

[fathom wadi]

That's why WW and bats are great while things like TnJ and velma keep getting nerfed

Because the devs listen to crybaby who don't know how to outspoken projectiles

[cyan whale]

I think more people have caught on to Batman tho

WW just seems to go untouched every patch

[cerulean cliff]

To be fair, until today, IG is free eats for TnJ. Tried fighting him as other characters and boy is it so easy to just get rotor armed

[trim zealot]

Having so many projectiles does have perks, but that only gets us so far, especially while other characters are getting more and more counters to them.

[cerulean cliff]

What I dont get is non assassins getting massive speed buffs

Like Banana guard has NO business being that fast

[trim zealot]

I didn’t read his changes, he got a speed buff?

[cerulean cliff]

He's almost as fast as we are

[fathom wadi]

Yeah

We are medium speed at beat

Also we are the 4th lightest character in the game and we have medium speed and bad jump so it's not that hard to get rid of us

[cerulean cliff]

Finn is probably a hard -2 now

[trim zealot]

For sure, all I saw on his notes was buffs.

Maybe some changes to reduce knockback? But other than that, he’s just gonna be better.

[cerulean cliff]

I already made Diamond in the rough shape he was in last patch, I'm just not playing past dailies

[trim zealot]

I’m gonna try playing T&J again, but my expectations are lower than ever.

I might have no other option than to camp now. Before I could play neutral like normal, just for less reward, but now, idk.

[cerulean cliff]

Just hard zone

[keen swan]

Backpack and tilt/high five charge time got nerfs

[trim zealot]

Those are welcome changes, but all it’ll take is less monkey brain plays to make him just as viable as before.

A baby could play Finn properly before.

[keen swan]

It was still better than season 2 Finn to be fair

Backpack change still sounds weird

It’s like a weird version of bugs nair now

[trim zealot]

Was that the single hit change? Instead of multi hit vacuum?

[keen swan]

Yeah

It’s odd cause if they’re low damage and they get hit would they just recover in time to still hit you anyways??

[trim zealot]

So it’ll only register once, like no multi hit after it touches the opponent once?

[keen swan]

Yes

But he keeps spinning after they’re hit

That’s the part I don’t get

[trim zealot]

I expect it’ll just be the finisher hit though.

[keen swan]

Nope

[trim zealot]

Fr? That sucks.

[keen swan]

It still looks the exact same but it’s one hit

It’s so nonsensical

[trim zealot]

Free punishes ON HIT.

[keen swan]

Literally

I can see what they wanted to do with it but it doesn’t work well like this

[trim zealot]

T&J up tilt may be in a similar boat now.

[raven onyx]

This dev team is a joke

[trim zealot]

But not nearly as bad, my condolences to backpack.

[trim zealot]

They made good decisions before, this might be a result of layoffs and less QA testers.

[keen swan]

Welcome to the Velma gang

Stray hit heroes

[trim zealot]

The dev team is talented, but community feedback is being taken way too generously.

People complain about X move, X move gets DUMPSTERED until it’s useless.

[raven onyx]

Ik they have this favoritism needs to stop

[trim zealot]

I just dislike the lack of creative solutions to these problems. Like just put a lockout on Jerry shot after using it. That would fix loops, while allowing combos off up tilt, and they could reintroduce jump branches.

Up tilt was only ever complained about because people blamed that move for loops.

[raven onyx]

I bet Checkboi is laughing at TnJ rn

[trim zealot]

Must be, I don’t expect them to be back here after this patch.

They got what they wanted, then some.

Now they’ll be bothering Harley.

[lost violet]

No they won't

[raven onyx]

Hope your happy TnJ haters you killed TnJ

Clowns

[trim zealot]

Why?

Harley was already a combo queen, now she’s even better.

[raven onyx]

They live to hate TnJ

Reverse Flash gonna catch hands with them

[lost violet]

They'll be complaining about a lowtier that they suck at fighting before they do someone they actually play

[trim zealot]

I would expect that behavior, but this patch, Harley will be very close to the damage output we had on Jason pre patch.

It won’t be loops, but it’ll be big damage, and they could easily do the same complaint of “it’s a -900000 matchup”.

[raven onyx]

Its saddening TnJ got murked bc PEOPLE COULDNT PUNISH

[trim zealot]

PFG had an issue with up tilt being at the core of our gameplay, but they never gave us alternative combo routes. Of course the beating heart of our combo game was the most used.
Edit: Nvm, people do complain about batarang and jab on Batman, but PFG doesn’t nerf those into the dirt via combo removal.

[raven onyx]

Bc people play Batman

[trim zealot]

If we were to get up tilt nerfs, they had to give us other combo starters and extenders.

But all we got is a lousy racket buff. (Lousy t shirt joke)

[raven onyx]

Smash Bros is looking veryyyy appeling rn

[trim zealot]

Not with Steve running the game.

True 0-death central.

[trim zealot]

Off of a disjoint with 2-4 frame startup, mind you.

[lost violet]

I got Sparking Zero on standby I'm bout to drop this game

[raven onyx]

Yea u right

[trim zealot]

This game would be enjoyable if you pick up another character, but that’s the issue, if they over perform, it’s likely PFG will neuter them.

[raven onyx]

This game crumbling man

[trim zealot]

Or keep them the same, and nerf them again with a note saying “oopsies, we forgot to remove that thing last patch, as players found another way of doing it (we didn’t think about it ourselves even though we are the devs, lol)”.

[odd wadi]

We made it boys

[trim zealot]

I hate to blame PFG for all of this, but the balance changes is all them, not WB.

[raven onyx]

WB is just for Monetizatiom

[trim zealot]

We made it another six feet under.

[odd wadi]

Tbh I just play but Steve mains are rare for me

[odd wadi]

Idk about that

[trim zealot]

Oh you were taking about smash.

I see.

[odd wadi]

I also really mean for t&j

Didn't get a ton of nerfs

[raven onyx]

[trim zealot]

We lost a situational combo that was the only thing holding up tilt, our main combo tool, together.

This is just salt in the wound. We were bad before, just not against Jason or (arguably) Shaggy.

[lost violet]

We ain't have much left to nerf to begin with

[raven onyx]

It was the people who cant punish at all

[fathom wadi]

Can you read?

Like have you seen the last few patches

[trim zealot]

I’m bugged about these last few patches. All it would’ve taken was a single good change, but instead we got a series of terrible changes that failed to completely address the issue, until now.

Now T&J are 12 feet under.

[raven onyx]

Thats an understatment

[fathom wadi]

They got rid of multiple things that were strong on this character but required skill and yet characters like finn and harly who are better, harder to deal with, and easier continue to have amazing tools that win them games

[raven onyx]

I swear if people still hate TnJ now imma play Harley

[trim zealot]

You’ll have more fun that way, lower the T&J pick rate, maybe PFG will see the mistake. I can’t tell anyone to stick around for this character anymore.

The nerfs have made us miserable to play as, and against.

[raven onyx]

Ive completley dropped them now

[fathom wadi]

I won't even play

[raven onyx]

It hurts more bc they need skill but no we just turned into a caveman spamming projectiles

[fathom wadi]

Played some batman for a bit but it's just not fun anymore

[raven onyx]

This game is boring now

Awful balancing

[trim zealot]

Not even Batman?

[fathom wadi]

not even batman. and i love batman

[trim zealot]

I wanted to try them myself. Still might.

[fathom wadi]

he is quite fun

[odd wadi]

@trim zealot @lost violet i think y'all just too reliant on it. It's really not that bad. Gotta consider the fun for everyone and t&j can thrive without the over reliance of that move. They have way more combos than just that move you gotta actually play the game

Every nerf batman gets is deserved though. I'll die on that hill

[fathom wadi]

Are you-are you like speaking in a foreign language?

[odd wadi]

😂

[fathom wadi]

You do know they GUTTED tom and Jerry coming into the full release right?

[lost violet]

I wasn't reliant on it at all. And the combos they did have are gone

[fathom wadi]

Like he was nerfed before the game came ou

[odd wadi]

I've played since Alpha tests I know

[fathom wadi]

Then you know it's not because of the paddle nerfs

[trim zealot]

I’ve labbed T&J every patch. We’ve never had fewer combos than now. If you want us to sit back and camp with projectiles, go ahead. But I heavily dislike the incentives to play super passive. Offensive gameplay with rewards for melee attacks that lead to combos is far superior to projectiles any day as far as fun factor goes.

[raven onyx]

[fathom wadi]

Its because he has legitimantly had all of his tools taken from him

He has jerry shot. And Jerry shot wanst just a projectile it was a combo tool

[odd wadi]

Yeah when they nerf a combo route of course it's gonna give you less routes but they still have others.

[lost violet]

And they took those too. He has literally nothing left

[fathom wadi]

And now people will complain even more because they made him full oonga boong projectiles and not sill cat with loops and set-play

[trim zealot]

I can count on one hand how many main combo routes we have, and they all deal extremely subpar damage for this game. You cannot be justifying these changes.

[odd wadi]

Ive made it into the 100's using other combos that don't involve paddle and looping with it and Jerry shot you gotta get used to the whole kit not just paddle starters

I do still use em don't it twisted

[lost violet]

His whole kit was taken from him. It's like having a tool box with no tools in it

[trim zealot]

Ive been using those too. We all have. It’s not nearly as fun as pre patch combos, after loops were removed from most of the cast.

[raven onyx]

Its just a box

[trim zealot]

Characters just not fun now, and this will only make them more lame to play.

[odd wadi]

I'm just saying if you're upset and feel like that's all they have you've got learning to do. More than anything it sounds like you should be playing bruisers. They're a good combo character but you've gotta use all of the kit and setup. You can do trap setups and combo all kinds of things with that

[raven onyx]

Are you stupid?

[odd wadi]

I'm by no means the best t&j player but they're not gutted you just can't spam that loop anymore

[fathom wadi]

We did learn

When we learned they took it away again

[odd wadi]

It doesn't sound like you did

[fathom wadi]

Well i did at first. Then I stopped

[trim zealot]

Ahh, the classic “well, just use another character”. I’ve tried. I like T&J, and cannot imagine using another move set, but removing most combos has made this character a slog to play as, and I win most of my matches.

[fathom wadi]

Because there was no point

[odd wadi]

Like the move still has combos. I don't get why you're so upset about it

[trim zealot]

Up tilt into up air. There.

[raven onyx]

YOUR ACTUALLY STUPID

[odd wadi]

You just don't have the busted one

[trim zealot]

Crazy combo game, am I right?

[raven onyx]

THIS COMMUNITY IS DUMBER THAN PATRICK STAR

[lost violet]

We don't have anything. That's the problem

[fathom wadi]

Brother after these combos you speak of tell me how do you kill your opponent?

[odd wadi]

Mad

[trim zealot]

I was perfectly fine with up tilt after the ground bounce change, I got used to not relying on the loop, and even had fun. Now up tilt feels like garbage to use in any situation, why not use down air instead for the same combo game, with more disjoint, and an actually true kill confirm?

[raven onyx]

IM SICK OF PEOPLE LIKE: NERF TNJ MOREEEE BC I CANT PUNISHHH WAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[fathom wadi]

Is it with our 2 scrappy and predictable projectiles or with the up air that can be hard to hit and got it's weet spot removed for no reason?

[odd wadi]

Ive killed with a lot of different combos this character has i cant just explain it off the top of my head which is gonna make it sound like I'm a fraud but I can give clips whenever I get em

[odd wadi]

You guys got used to them being a combo heavy char but they're meant to be a setup character that combos WITH setups. Not just straight up paddle or jab jab paddle stuff. If you get a ground bounce with racket you can do all kinds of stuff

[odd wadi]

I main them so I'm not asking for nerfs

[raven onyx]

Dont seem like it

[odd wadi]

I haven't asked for a single t&j nerf i ask for strictly DC nerfs

[raven onyx]

Can we have a CHARACTER THAT WORKS PFG

[odd wadi]

I wanna see y'all play

[trim zealot]

I think you haven’t noticed, but setup characters only work if their setups can take place mid combo, which they can’t on T&J because if we don’t do anything after up tilt, jab, or down air, we get punished for landing them. I would love to have some genius cheese trap combo plays, but the game doesn’t facilitate that with characters that have nutty aerials, projectiles of their own, or just straight up anti projectile barriers that follow them. T&J also have no consistent way to set up cheese trap or dynamite for combos, dynamite explodes too quickly, and cheese trap has too much knockback, and too high a cooldown to be reliable.

Think of puppet characters in traditional fighting games. They have the ability to setup mid combo, without being punished for it.

We don’t.

[odd wadi]

I disagree I use Cheese trap all day. You set that up whenever you can even use it off cooldown on super aggressive opponents. Dynamite i also use all day with and without hitting it

[trim zealot]

Dynamite is like a LeBron ball, it’s neutral control, same for cheese trap. They are not combo starters, or extenders unless the stars align, and your opponent was dumb enough to approach at the perfect angle.

[odd wadi]

You can use Dynamite aggressively and defensively and it's not hard. Trap you can set it and knock them into it with forward aerials depending on damage and you can slam them into it for a kill with frying pan you can do the jab jab down attack to knock them into it and go for paddle or aerial attacks

[hollow flax]

I don’t think you read that he meant setting it up during the combo not just setting it up

[trim zealot]

Nvm. They are starters, but only for single hits like side air.

[odd wadi]

I mean setting up trap in a combo probably isn't gonna work

Dynamite is easy

[odd wadi]

I don't play Puppet characters in other fighting games though. Too much work for me. T&J was forced because I love em

[trim zealot]

Exactly. It’s not aggressive, therefore, any fun. I don’t want to sit behind my cheese traps and dynamite all day. I understand it’s optimal, but not fun at all.

[odd wadi]

Don't camp I'm not telling you to camp because I don't camp

But use it and try forcing them into it by being aggressive

At the very least it gives you stage control

[lost violet]

We used to be able to afford being aggressive, hence the combos that got removed from him. Not just the paddle

[trim zealot]

Popping dynamite in my opponents face 9/10 usually results in me getting punished by a burst option, or they just jump above it then wait it out.

[odd wadi]

I play aggressive all day

[trim zealot]

I reserve it for the middle of the stage like LeBron ball, and it works, but it’s just camping with extra steps.

[odd wadi]

Idk how to explain it. Like if you're pressuring them and then can't get any follow up just drop it and see what they do. If they come in they get hit or you hit it to go for a hit or dodge around and hit it to them

If they jump around it let it bounce and do something else.

I can't give you anything that is gonna concrete work 100% of the time because I don't play like that and I don't think many things work guaranteed.

[trim zealot]

So, reads? A character should not be situationally good just because of reads. That’s bad game design, if I get a hit, I expect a good combo.

A true combo.

That lasts for more than 2 or 3 hits.

[hollow flax]

Yeah not sure if paddle leads into anything true now. Annoyingly.

like I rather they nerf the actual combo instead of removing our ability to do it

[odd wadi]

I mean they have true combos I'm just not good at explaining. But I love the character so I'm just tryna help you understand it's still gonna be fun if you just try using the other parts of their kit more often

[trim zealot]

At low% you can get side air and up air, but at high% they can avoid a kill confirm if they DI out.

[hollow flax]

Like I should have complete creative control of my character in a fighting game

[hollow flax]

You mean like stuff you hit on a whim can lead to situationally true combos?

[trim zealot]

That last for 2 or 3 hits, very few, and very little damage.

[hollow flax]

Could you do paddle into fishing rod?

[lost violet]

Basically we're just going into the match and letting luck take the wheel

[hollow flax]

I wonder if that can work

[trim zealot]

Yes, but it doesn’t kill, and only deals like 12%.

[odd wadi]

True combos and situationally true ones. I start out with putting trap down at the start of every match and my goal at that point is to knock em into it to get aerial combos or moves out of it.

[hollow flax]

Yeah so basically what I said

[odd wadi]

So if I gotta hit em with Jerry into it I go for that but most times I'm going for jab jab down attack or if I know it's not gonna push em far enough then I Jerry shot them into it and go for paddle or forward aerial

[trim zealot]

So the 2-3 hit combos that only deal like 12-20%?

The ones I mentioned being bad for game balance?

And fun factor?

If you can kill at about 70-100% in this game, then that’s around 4+ neutral wins on average needed to get a stock off your opponent. Compare that to 40-50% combos like other characters have, and you can see the issue here.

[hollow flax]

Yeah these combos are what Lebron got reduced to mostly. He doesn’t get much off hit. But I guess he actually has crazy kb unlike TJ

And despite that I still consider bron to be low-mid tier

[trim zealot]

Because he actually has multiple reliable combo starters, even without ball.

If you have low combo damage on average, you should at least have many options to start them, like LeBron.

T&J lost good combo damage with no compensation.

All that’s left is a zoner.

[hollow flax]

I mean it’s actually just nb sair into jab that is his main combo starter. Nothing else for the most part. Similar to paddle being Tom’s main combo tool until they removed the options from it

[odd wadi]

Im sure there's more I just don't remember off the top of my head and I'm at work trying to answer y'all

I also haven't played in like two weeks

[trim zealot]

He can start those off ball too, his ball and no ball Nair combo, and both his down air combo too.

He can cover multiple approaches and parts of the map with combo starters for that situation. T&J have little to no option other than throw out dynamite and hope for a down air opportunity.

[trim zealot]

No need. I’ve memorized their combos in full. It’s as I said.

[hollow flax]

Yeah ball can actively start something if they are stupid enough to run into it or you can hit them into it and extend the thing. In any case it is pretty good to start something. Also no ball nair is a terrible combo tool and doesn’t true combo into anything most of the time except maybe up air at low%

[odd wadi]

I think you guys are doom and glooming it a lot

But once I play I'll actually have my mind made up on it

[hollow flax]

lol

[raven onyx]

How are we TnJ are dead and desercated

[trim zealot]

No ball Nair used to combo reliably, so I assumed it was still good. My bad. I am glad the rest of my message was correct though.

[odd wadi]

Idk send clips

[hollow flax]

Yeah they gutted a lot of lebrons stuff from beta sadly

[raven onyx]

You cant read the patch notes cant you

😂

[odd wadi]

Im asking you to send clips of you playing

[raven onyx]

Plus games down for maintence anyway

[trim zealot]

They haven’t played in 2 weeks. I’d say to let them at least play again first.

[odd wadi]

You do.t have any saved

[raven onyx]

The.Game.Is.Down.For.Maintence

[odd wadi]

That has nothing to do with you having clips saved 😂😂

You do or don't

Im not asking you to send new patch gameplay

[raven onyx]

HOW CAN I PLAY THE NEW PATCH IF ITS NOT OUT YET

[odd wadi]

Read brother read

[raven onyx]

NAH YOU READ

[hollow flax]

Well we were literally arguing about how TJ will be in current patch lol

[odd wadi]

I want to see how the man plays im not asking how he plays on new patch

[trim zealot]

The notes are pretty self explanatory. This is just what the last patch was supposed to be.

[hollow flax]

I guess yeah

Wait I just realized why can’t TJ even do racket off of paddle? That wasn’t even true

[odd wadi]

Probably to stop peeps from finding an alternative loops

[trim zealot]

Insurance. They wanted to make sure we wouldn’t creatively find another set of loops like last patch on Jason/Shaggy.

At this point I think they gave up on T&J’s viability and just decided they wanted loops gone no matter the cost.

[hollow flax]

Yeah that’s the entire point. If they wanted him to be viable they woulda just nerfed the combo itself and kept the options he coulda done out of paddle.

[trim zealot]

This also loops back to the lack of QA testing they do. If they bothered to allow players a PTB like in DBD, or hire testers, they probably wouldn’t have these issues.

[odd wadi]

Least toxic dbd player

[trim zealot]

I’m not a DBD player, but I do know they have PTBs and they do benefit the patches.

[odd wadi]

Ah. Trash game but fun. Mostly because of the community

[trim zealot]

It’s literally free QA testers.

[hollow flax]

True I don’t think they want testers though cause I heard they’re afraid of them leaking things, but also everything is being leaked anyways lol

[trim zealot]

That’s the thing. If they just have transparency for balance changes, then there wouldn’t repeatedly be this issue of bad balance changes. If they want to take feedback from players, let them feel out how the player’s changes effect the game and characters before forcing all players to play that version of the game, give us a PTB, and we’ll be able to tell if a change is too much, or too little. If they don’t want to pay for QA, they can have volunteers playing the new patches, so they can fine tune the final patch.

If they did this, they would’ve seen that nerfing paddle wouldn’t have stopped it from looping Jason/Shaggy, they also would have seen how bad it would’ve made T&J due to lack of combo routes.

[hollow flax]

Yep and then they would’ve found a way to nerf the combo to not being a loop allowing TJ to actually still do the combo with ways of escaping

[cerulean cliff]

What kills me is four patches ago when they made the racket change they specifically said "We want to encourage Tom to have ground bounce strings like everyone else"

And then took it away immediately after

By removing jump cancel

[raven onyx]

Plus they wanna keep characters usable (thats a lie

[trim zealot]

With racket, you’ll primarily use it in the air while drifting, so losing the ability to hit it from paddle doesn’t undermine that goal. It’s just that it was an inadequate buff to compensate for the loss of most our combos. Their statement of wanting to allow alternate combo routes and then not giving us any other buffs is very contradictory though.

[trim zealot]

2 patches in a row now where we haven’t received a single buff.

Not even to down tilt or dash attack, which have been underused by most players because of the end lag on dash attack, and the uncharged lunge distance of down tilt (rather, lack of).

[raven onyx]

Thats pathetic

[trim zealot]

It is. I think it’s like I said before. I think PFG just gave up on buffing and just decided their only goal was to remove loops.

They didn’t think about how it would effect T&J’s viability after the fact, or how it would effect the fun factor attached to them.

[raven onyx]

So we cant have anything but Harley gets buffed.

[trim zealot]

I’m really not sure what warranted Harley getting buffed, like, at all. That was just bizzare.

[cerulean cliff]

She's underperforming, thats it really

One guy overperforms and we get shot (again)

That's all it is

[raven onyx]

And im still betting were still gonna get hate

Its not hardcorefox fault.its the people who cant punish

[trim zealot]

It’s the devs’ fault. Don’t blame the players, blame the game.

If you allow people to have loops, they will use them.

[raven onyx]

Ik its the devs fault

I cant man this game has burned me out due to poor decisions

[open crypt]

i mean pfg is an incompetent developer

they are mmm
let's remove this thing instead of the other loop thing, and then remove them both

while other characters with much more annoying traits, are still doing their crap happily
while tnj is like....uhh ggs

like the only thing they needed to remove was the jerry usage

thats it

keep the jump

cause
what the hell tom is going to use mouse trap after paddle

like
look batman, look at my paddle
batman throws batarang and proceeds to do the same combo for the 80th time and win

[naive pebble]

Thank you PFG for fixing the loop👍

Finally I can play tom and Jerry and not feel like a carried bot

[open crypt]

yeah now its going to feel like an unusable character

or its time to camp even more

[raven onyx]

No point now bc THERE DEAD

[raven onyx]

We cant enjoy our character bc PEOPLR CANT PUNISH A SINGLE MOVE

[naive pebble]

They're mot dead

the down air hitbox is still the size of a stage

[open crypt]

but slow

[raven onyx]

Ughhhhhhh we still GETTING COMPLAINTS

I CALLED IT

[naive pebble]

lol

[raven onyx]

ITS NON STOP

[naive pebble]

Can't even say a move is good anymore lol

[hollow flax]

Man complaining about dair when you can barely combo off it

[naive pebble]

zzz I wasn't complaining

[hollow flax]

Actually you are right

I take back what I said

[naive pebble]

#1245145517529501787 more like Tom and Jerry and Censorship

[hollow flax]

???

[trim zealot]

Your point does not stand just because we have a good down air. The combos we get off of it are only 2 hit bread and butters for the most part, until mid% where you can Jerry shot > tennis ball > up air, which isn’t much longer, and isn’t available at all when the opponent is low%.

[naive pebble]

jk

[naive pebble]

I don't have to argue with you anymore, the loop is fixed I'm happy.

[trim zealot]

We aren’t “dead” in the sense that if we camp and passively play with projectiles, we are ok. But we cannot have fun anymore, and we aren’t anywhere near A-S tier anymore, where most characters should strive to be at.

[raven onyx]

We fell down so many tiers

[trim zealot]

2 in my opinion, but that is a lot for just 3 patches.

[raven onyx]

Yeaaa i dont read Tier lists tbh most are BADDDDDD

[open crypt]

i mean, is not like jerry is invincible and endure so many hits
oh wait, wonder womand use shield, jerry's dead, what now?

or smith uses gun

what now

bugs safe and rocket, what now

[trim zealot]

Shaggy and BG can also insta kill Jerry.

[open crypt]

taz can barf, nado and dash attack

so...what can tom do now with all those nerfs and jerry dead?

[trim zealot]

We do have dynamite and trap. But I do agree that this patch simply made matchups even worse, since you could trip those characters up with some up tilt > Jerry shot tech chases.

I mentioned before that this patch will age poorly too. Other characters are just getting so many anti projectile perks and changes.

Finn just got buffed this patch, and the matchup was already pretty bad.

Losing access to combos just means very little counterplay to anti-projectile.

[open crypt]

they should have bring jump cancel to paddle back

that would have counter things

[open crypt]

still don't know the why, since finn was able to do 0 to death before this patch

[trim zealot]

I mentioned this before, but a great solution would have been a Jerry shot lockout. Like 0.X seconds after firing Jerry shot, you can’t fire Jerry shot again. Then they just add the jump branch back and we have combos, but no loops.

[open crypt]

for me it was keep tom the same from season 2

remove the jerry usage in paddle

that's it

[raven onyx]

Sign this man or woman to the dev team

[trim zealot]

I wish, but I would only really be there for feedback on character balance. I don’t mind hopping into the lab to see what combos are available, and how they might be performed before/after any changes. I just like proposing more creative solutions to these problems than “just nerf it”.

Bad nerfs take away from the fun of the game.

[open crypt]

i mean some characters need some nerfs for balance

like example imagine morty spamming dirt on top of him

you'll be never able to touch him if your characters does not have a proyectile

[trim zealot]

But that had a creative solution that didn’t destroy his character. They just made it so you can only detonate dirt after so much space/time. it didn’t destroy the move, it’s still useful, arguably even more now because it splits grenades again.

I’m not arguing for no nerfs, just better nerfs that don’t gut characters or create more issues.

There’s also been some nerfs that didn’t “really” fix the issue.

Like reindog loops that stayed in the game for 3 consecutive patches.

[fleet bronze]

I'm juts going to main T&J in 2s now. I need to find a news 1s though

Hope you TnJ mains stay strong. Hopefully we will get something in Season 4

[lost violet]

I’m not keeping my hopes up

[odd wadi]

Update drop yet?

[subtle lotus]

Theres no combo bro

Those arent true

This is an message for mvs players and pfg poor balancing:

🖕

Il go play rivals 2

This character its just overrated and hated way to much

Il go play an top tier or play an competitive platform figther

[naive pebble]

Tom and jerry can still cook idk what all the tears are about

[cerulean cliff]

Get diamond with him post patch if you're so confident

[trim zealot]

The only combos off of up tilt now are up tilt > up air/side air at low-mid%, and up tilt > fishing rod.

[subtle lotus]

This is really deceptionating

[trim zealot]

How? Those are true combos.

They were true before, and the nerf wouldn’t affect them.

[cerulean cliff]

I have never seen paddle > fishing rod in my life

Probably more to do with the fact its not that good to start unless you're ledge trapping

[hollow flax]

Paddle to paddle combo is funny

Not true but funny

[trim zealot]

No, it just sucks.

Does bad damage and has no kill power.

But it’s one of the few options available now.

[cerulean cliff]

It kills if you sweetspot around 100 or so

But the problem is they made it harder to hit since the beta

Its also just very easy to avoid so typically not worth it unless they're in burnout

[trim zealot]

You can’t hit the sweet spot in the combo.

[dusty nova]

Multiverses is down fr me rn THo the patch notes are indeed somthing for the description it looks like tnj can send normal rockets through platforms finally 🤝 and it seems we have at least a jump cancel back I think on hit

Imma be Is stoked if I can cancel paddle into down pan again paddle only being cancelable on hit

[trim zealot]

We do?

I was in the game a little bit ago but didn’t enter the lab.

[dusty nova]

I don't know fr sure yet I can't play mvs it's down on console r sum

[cerulean cliff]

No you cant

They took out paddle's jump cancel last patch

Unless they stealth added it back and didnt tell anybody

[trim zealot]

I just tested it, and yeah, you can’t.

No jump branch.

[subtle lotus]

Like the patch and combos

[subtle lotus]

No

We are 100% dead

His trash right mow

Now

[fleet bronze]

So yeah my first fight was against a Finn in 1v1 and uh.... not fun. You can cancel paddle into down tilt after like the 3rd or four bounce, but yeah this is pretty bad

[naive pebble]

I just got a dope asl triple spike on and IG and killed with T & J

Iron cheeseball

[subtle lotus]

Yes

That happend to me tons of times against lonleydripp

T&J waesnt that good since the beggining

People just were overrating and complaining to much

Even if they didn't try the character

[subtle lotus]

Paddle into d tilt its useless

You can di paddle up

So you won't get caught by the d tilt

Also they erase the possibility to use racket or jerry shot

We are at the worst state wver

[rose agate]

whats in your opinion the best tnj skin aksing for recs

[hollow flax]

Yo ngl all I’ve been doing is just following DI and reading with paddle into paddle and have been having the time of my life lol. I feel like I’ve been having more success with paddle into paddle than the loops

[trim zealot]

I’ve been using the few true combos that remain, and some traps with up special and up air as a follow up to paddle. That’s mostly just reading though. T&J feel far worse, even if I’ve been performing the same.

Back when we had actual combos, I could expect to only need 2 or 3 neutral wins to take a stock. Now it takes (on average) at or above 4.

That’s not me failing to push the advantage. That’s just resetting neutral being the best option most of the time.

[hollow flax]

Idk I think I’ll just escape this gloom hole to go enjoy the character rn

[odd wadi]

long as you don't rely on spamming paddle loops this character is the exact same as they were

on the even brighter side rocket doesn't die to platforms

[trim zealot]

Not at all. Being able to land considerable damage off of true combos was way better than this, and more fun too. Having to play the guessing game most of the time, even though it takes more skill, is far worse than guaranteed damage. The last couple patches have been catastrophic for T&J’s viability.

I’ve played some matches today, and won them all with T&J, and I’ll still stand by what I said.

[odd wadi]

fighting games are guessing like it or not. Platform fighters especially are guessing and this character isn't a bruiser so they're not meant to be getting crazy damage from guaranteed combos all the time

[raven onyx]

Are we still going at it like a Dragon Ball fight

[odd wadi]

not really I don't think anyone is really fighting out of anger

just disagreeing

[trim zealot]

I’m not angry at anyone. Just upset the patch didn’t give any alternative combo routes or anything. Also a little that people seem to be ok with these latest nerfs even though it’s a crazy downgrade that arguably pushes the character down to C tier at least.

Still not angry at any individuals though.

[odd wadi]

when you put it this way I can understand, but people will always take the low hanging fruit and it was gonna be removed because no matter the options people were given they'd go with that one and to prevent more of the unneeded complaints about nerfing the character in all these other ridiculous ways they got rip of the main problem

I rarely used that combo and so I obviously don't care but I also play Jason so regardless of what they did it would be possible on him

[dusty nova]

My multiverses is still down

And AHh pain

No jump cancel. Did this patch make him any worse

[subtle lotus]

They didn't make him worst

[dusty nova]

Can't even play 👁☕️👁

[subtle lotus]

They make him unusable

And lit buff every character after that

Bruh

[dusty nova]

He harder to use yeah The only differential is just being actually good with tom

Till you die at exactly 80 every time

[subtle lotus]

Yo got to be good before

His now trash bro

No combos, no anything

Considering his disadvantage state

And his weight

He shouldn't be this bad

[dusty nova]

Yeah ikr

[subtle lotus]

Is lit not balanced

Maybe if you give those features to an character like an tank

[dusty nova]

All he got is baiting and baiting is punishable with tom more specifically his fishing pol

[subtle lotus]

Bc they dont need that much combos and reads

Its just trash

They just need to revert everything from paddld

Instead of jump and canceling it on whiff

[dusty nova]

Or just make up jump cancelable on hit 💀

[subtle lotus]

And add paddle repetitive lockout

[subtle lotus]

That's what im saying

They got to revert paddle

Then nerf repetitive lockout from paddle

Decreased also the racket startup to combo into jab 3

And make jerry get insta killed by an armored move

But give him quicker corks

And racket hits

[dusty nova]

I can see it

I never saw a problem with jerry more Specifically the sling shot infinite is the whole reason tom got nerfed

[subtle lotus]

Now he's trash don't even try

Also the game feels laggy and wacky

[dusty nova]

And winers

[subtle lotus]

Prob serv issues

The real complain part about T&H

T&J

Was comboing paddle into itself

If they add repetitive lockout it's just ok

[dusty nova]

Yeah an infinite with paddle and jerry shot

[subtle lotus]

Is not an inf

That's definitely skill issue

[dusty nova]

Not now

[subtle lotus]

That was patched a long time ago

[dusty nova]

I'm aware

[subtle lotus]

When they added tech bounce

And people are still saying that it's an loop

Definitely skill issue, and they don't say anything on superman

Stripe or agent smith chat

Even if they are stronger than T&J and got better tech chases

This character its poorly balanced

Pfg really don't khow how to balance an character like this one

[dusty nova]

Tnj didn't need his whole bread and butter taken ppl were just bad at fighting good toms

[subtle lotus]

Yeah that's the real problsm

The combo was diable

Lit

Yo could just mash up and di up

[dusty nova]

Yeahh you could tech it

[subtle lotus]

Only 4 characters couldn't get out of the combo that easily

And they got an really huge hitbox

[subtle lotus]

And they lit complain about the tech chases

This changes are really bad, this proves pfg is not good at anything

They lit kept wonder woman the same also

The game needs manual tech

[dusty nova]

That's how I combo with him triple dynamite speed dodge into the player while the dynamite hits and mallet continue with paddle or just air claw

[subtle lotus]

Triple dynamite its horrible

[dusty nova]

Not much else

[subtle lotus]

You lit got nothing on disadvantage

[dusty nova]

Y
I make it work

[subtle lotus]

Having 3 dynamites its lit the most important part of T&J

Il just see if they could rework the character

I think if they limit the corks limit to one and give us 6 tennis balls and make the corks khockback way higher and stun you on the floof

Floof

Floor

Would be really good

Also prevents corks spam

And if you miss one cork

[dusty nova]

3x dynamite split dose like 20 dmg and if I dodge into it I can do a actual combo tho it's the only actual combo with dmg tnj got rn

[subtle lotus]

Jerry will die, do to an armored move

[dusty nova]

Or just jason

[subtle lotus]

Ik but triple dynamite its not worth it

[dusty nova]

Can't do enough dmg he's fat then shaplow teleport kill confirm at 70

[subtle lotus]

T&J its just gross right now

Hes like the new ksi song

💀

[dusty nova]

Bro is not the king 🤝

[lost violet]

What ways would we get them to straight up rework Tom and Jerry?

And I don’t mean how they would go about doing it. I mean getting them to do it in the first place

[dusty nova]

I don't even want a rework just want the jump cancel back 💀

He needed it

Lots of the roster is pretty even A teirs b teir sorta s ignoring batman tnj is

Not up there

The mvs main youtubers that still rank tomnj at s to A are running on 🧂 sallt

[odd wadi]

tom is still good

[dusty nova]

This four word statement is not very convincing

[odd wadi]

did you change your color?

nvm diff person

[dusty nova]

Yr

[odd wadi]

he doesn't need the cancel and its not gonna get added back in. Character is a mage with setups you can make to get combos. The outcry over that loop was too bad. Gogeta was also suggesting way more and worse nerfs for the character that didn't actually address the problem for the people vsing the character which was the loop. Keeping the jump cancel meant letting loops start up again with a different move

Nobody in here gonna agree but he's still good you just need to learn how to actually use the character's kit outside of jump cancelling paddle

[dusty nova]

Being a mage dosent stop players from jumping over a tennis ball and jab killing tom dosent do enough damage and can't kill on stage vs the whole roster that has jab kill confirms tom is a light character that can't do more then 32 dmg max combo and that's a single combo not different ones only one vs characters like shaggy doing 30 dmg in one hit or jason along side being fat the real problem was players complaining about a "infinite" that was patched way before the jump cancel was removed in the form of D I I genuinely doubt pvg wants the few toms that still play the character to spam tennis balls fishing poll and jerry shot just cuz he's a mage class

[odd wadi]

that's not the only way to play the character. I can't explain to you how to play the character because what works for me probably won't work for you , but they have combos outside of paddle jerry shot and jab. You can combo into the fishing pole, you can combo into racket, tennis balls, cheese trap, and rocket and such. You just gotta try and experiment with them

i'm not saying spam behind cheese trap (wouldn't work anyway) but they're a very free flow creative character

[dusty nova]

I'm aware you can combo with this things dawg cuz I do

[odd wadi]

i've done things on accident I didn't know I could do you just gotta try.

okay so you just want something concrete that you know you can get

[dusty nova]

Getting those little combos on players doesn't change the game they don't let you hit it again hitting a say jerry corg into tennis ball into mallet combo dosent lead into anything that can 1 do good enough dmg and 2 kill tennis ball and corg both do 2% his best kill confirm is down pan into high percentage jerry rocket but when you can't dmg and literally don't have the combos to dmg your ganna die first

Putting a experienced player against a tnj who knows how to play . tnj is underpowered Putting an experience tnj against an Inexperienced player is obviously a different story

[odd wadi]

I feel like you just don't understand the character because I've done just fine without the paddle to jerry shot. I'm not going to lie to you and say I never used it, but i've never relied on it and only it UNLESS i was fighting black adam or IG just out of spite. You have racket for bounces (with or without cork) that can lead into jab combos that will then go into paddle into forward air or up attack. They're not crazy combos like Batman had or anything but its still something good

there's other variations of that you can getting into depending on the bounces.

I don't think they have anything as concrete as paddle to jerry shot was, but if that is truly the case I don't see why its that much worse for anyone if you already know that was the only thing.

I don't think mages are meant to be played that way. Bugs bunny is the one that is different

in that regard, but even he has to use his entire kit to be super oppressive

and I think that is what a mage is supposed to be

sorry for that text wall

[cerulean cliff]

What's going on now

[odd wadi]

debatteeeeeee

kinda

[dusty nova]

Ion need you to tell me I don't know how to play the cat dawg he's the only character I actually main I'm good with him he's the one character i genuinely love in this game even without the jump cancel tho just cuz he has a fine moveset it dosent mean he's not lacking In the regard of dmg capability in general tom cant fight without gaining twicwe the dmg as the other player the ability to kill is granted with dmg and tom dosent have it befor dying thats why he could combo to Compensate for lack of dmg and being light as hel

[odd wadi]

i think the character is fine most don't

[dusty nova]

No biggie

[odd wadi]

I didn't mean it as an insult i'm just not sure how to word it. Feel like its gonna sound like one either way.

[dusty nova]

Love ur pfp tho @odd wadi

[dusty nova]

No problem ppl disagree

[odd wadi]

i've been abusing racket most since the bounce change.

generally i'll throw jerry at them and if it looks like it'll hit i jump in for racket and let go so cork hits them and holds them there for my racket hit. then jabs to paddle or jabs to dash attack to paddle if they didn't bounce from jerry or racket

[cerulean cliff]

He's playable in 2s is my verdict

[odd wadi]

i change up how I play for each person because some just expect it. that's another big reason why its hard for me to really give examples on how good he can be

[odd wadi]

i hate playing 2's now. Too many big hitboxes so I jsut play 1s

[cerulean cliff]

TnJ's life in 1s is much, much worse

[dusty nova]

Makes sense 🤔

[dusty nova]

Real

[odd wadi]

racket and rocket are my "fun" moves

[dusty nova]

Rocket and tennis balls are my funny moves I use the tennis balls to combo extend while they bounce on the ground before hitting them

Down pan is definitely of the the funny

I wanna play mvs but I CANTTT

It's still downnn

[cerulean cliff]

Is it?

I'm in it right now

[dusty nova]

On xbox it is😔

[cerulean cliff]

Oh rip

Tried a few games in 1s just now to figure stuff out, it is really just amounting to "dont approach"

[hollow flax]

I mostly just do down angled Jerry shot from air and fling sair around with corks for neutral. Mainly because I haven’t played this character much since beta and that’s how I played him a lot in beta lol

Probably not as effective now but it works for me

[cerulean cliff]

That's not far off

[odd wadi]

i basically stay in the air too

[cerulean cliff]

Just dodge all the characters who ignore projectiles

Which is half the cast at this point

[dusty nova]

I hate fin bro goober dashes into a cheese trap face first like a moth to the flame and deletes it instead of it going off

[cerulean cliff]

Even Jake is a worse MU now

turns into a house and suddenly no more zoning

[dusty nova]

The house perk on jake is spooky he bounces menacingly at you and you can't send projectiles at him😂

[cerulean cliff]

Yeah I'm not vibing with this

[hollow flax]

Ok I feel with y’all now. For the first time in my life I used a full 4 hit jab to kill someone at 180

Also it feels nice to bully Jason with paddle into paddle conversion and kill him at 100 with up special rocket

[dusty nova]

Using the mallet 😭

[dusty nova]

Tnj dosent have a galaxy skin

[hidden verge]

So Tom

He’s really gone huh

[sturdy yarrow]

Yep. F tier patch took away his combos gave him nothing back and made a bunch more irrelevant nerfs to the top tiers

[hidden verge]

I’m a top 100 Tom and Jerry

[open crypt]

yeah

they could have at least bring the jump cancel back

while batman still the same

ww