#Balance (driver strength vs car performance)

29 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

graceful cape
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First of all: Thanks for the numerous improvements compared with F1Manager2022. You listen to your community!

I think, it would be great if you could revisit the balance related to impact of driver strength on overall race performance. While the car is indeed very important, it seems to me that individual driver performance is not rated sufficient at the moment. In reality, Perez has huge trouble with the best car and you can see clear differences between Hulkenberg and Magnussen. In F1M23, for now, car performance defines grid position almost entirely.

astral tiger
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I'm just going to bump this instead of creating a new topic. THIS. It is insane how the current balance is and hasn't even been looked at yet. The driver's championship is almost always a Noah's Ark of two-by-two at the end of the year because even if there's a little variation race-by-race, ultimately it averages to Best Car - 2nd Best Car - 3rd Best car by the end. We've seen that isn't the case in real life, really, ever. Even now Sergio is fighting Hamilton for 2nd IRL. Alonso is well clear of Stroll and in a completely different fight in the Driver's Championship. You see the driver discrepancy in the inter-team fights in game, but that's all you end up with. Each driver's performance is dictated by the car they're in seemingly 95% of the time. (Right now, in my S3, the only discrepancy is Zhou, in a McLaren because the AI was woeful in replacing engine parts for him).

eternal basin
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Also, I think driver rating should be based on real life statistics. It looks to me that drivers are rated by the car they drive. No way Perez could be higher than Piastri on the order. Some F2 and reserve drivers, such as Drugovich or Pourchare, even Lawson, should be ranked above some F1 drivers such as Sargeant, Zhou, Tsunoda, as they were beaten in F2 by some margin.

shell gyro
# eternal basin Also, I think driver rating should be based on real life statistics. It looks to...

Firstly I am not a Perez fan but a seasoned fan of the sports/Ferrari/ leclerc fan .

Based on previous F1 results , it would be a crime for piastri to be rated anywhere close to Perez.
Piastri is a rookie for a start, Perez is a grand Prix winner, maybe people forget Perez won a race with racing point.
Perez is just struggling with an oversteering car, his preference is understeering,that doesn't make him a bad driver.driving is all about confidence in controlling the car ,you loose that your speed goes with it
Perez has a lot of credit in the banks in comparison to oscar who has non outside f2 results.
You don't rate drivers based on form ...you rate drivers based on accumulation of past season results

Finally should Oscar be rated higher like 80- 83 for a start? Yes

Should he be rated anywhere close to Perez? No

eternal basin
# shell gyro Firstly I am not a Perez fan but a seasoned fan of the sports/Ferrari/ leclerc f...

I think you got the point. If we start talking about each driver rating, it would be an endless discussion. The point is: rate drivers for their actual statistics (not only results, as they are dependent on the car as well). For instance, look at the lap times drop in a race to rate smoothness, lap time standard deviation to rate consistency, number of lockups, successful overtakes, successful defences, qualifying vs racing performance, etc etc etc. A data driven approach, trying to remove the car from the equation as much as possible. Then, there should be a category called “F1 experience” or something like that as this makes a real difference in real life. At last, no overall average as it doesn’t exist.

astral tiger
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True, there could be more done regarding Driver Ratings. (I'd like to see 'Experience' turn up as an attribute, that's based on GPs raced that could take on elements of Control etc and provide a baseline acclimatisation level and other things). But realistically driver rating is almost irrelevant in the face of the bias given to the car capabilities in the first place as the game is right now.

shell gyro
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As much as I would like the car factor to be removed but the honest truth is that you can't remove it completely.
There is a saying that a "workman is as good as his tools "
An example is max and Lewis rating when Merc was dominant and Redbull dominant.
Lewis was rated higher than max now the reverse is the case
The car factor will always be additional bias
Those intangibles like lock up smoothness and the rest ends up determining the results.

I think the pace stats rating category for f1 manager 23 is close to accurate outside Oscar rating but the other category feels more like random.

Unlike f2 with equal cars f1 don't have equal cars so there will always be difficulty in properly rating any driver... I bet if you swap max for Bottas in ar, Bottas would be winning races and max won't score a podium....

astral tiger
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We're not asking for it be 'removed', we're asking for the bias to be tuned down to a sensible level. Even now with that ridiculous Red Bull, the second driver is fighting Hamilton IRL, but in F1M, in my experience, the Driver's ends up 1-2 Red Bull clear every year. The second best car's drivers are 3-4 and so on.

shell gyro
shell gyro
# astral tiger We're not asking for it be 'removed', we're asking for the bias to be tuned down...

Why is that so ? .
Driver preferences.... It is not a factor in game .
Set up is more of a puzzle solving than actual setup .
In real life each driver has the way they like their car setup.
Each car has a particular preferred set up to maximise it's potential

When a driver is not happy with car setup or he has to compromise his own preferred set up just to maximise the car potential, he becomes slower and cautious.
That's what you see with Perez and Leclerc even Ricardo in McLaren.
Driving style makes a drive set up .

Some Prefer understeering, some oversteering ,some neutral.

Makes the car set up and the driver set up preference a thing in the game you will have the real life replication in game.

Car set up should be added to design and research.
.
So when you get a driver you get a driver that loves such a set up to maximise the car potential

Max or Charles won't maximise their potential in an understeering car .
Just like checo or Sainz won't maximise their potential in oversteering cars .

Makes this preference a part of the game then you would see all these changes like real life

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In game Perez loves oversteering like max that's why he is at one with the Redbull performing so well why real life Perez hates oversteering that's why he is average battling with Lewis

astral tiger
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What? Please read what we're saying. The game's bias is providing unrealistic results because it is too far weighted to car performance. Look at the IRL driver's championship. 3rd-6th are each from a different team, and that's repeated from 7-10th. With the exception of Ferrari, that's largely down to the drivers. (And Hamilton in 3rd is chasing Perez in 2nd). That rarely happens in the game because car performance is king. Driver capabilities barely affects it. The game doesn't simulate driver preference at all (which you literally ask for three paragraphs earlier), so how can Perez "love oversteering in the game"? He is over-performing in the game because the results are 90% dependent on the car. Watch any non-incident race in F1M, it will default to car order in a 2-by-2 formation.

It is also partially the fault of the lack of mechanical failures too, since it gives less chance for the 'outsiders' to nick points here and there. I don't deny that driver's have a preference IRL and that can hinder them (Ricciardo, as you mention, was a clear example of that too) but that's irrelevant to this discussion of the game.

shell gyro
astral tiger
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Are you seriously suggesting that Stroll or Russell aren't comfortable in their cars IRL either, then? Yes Perez IRL struggles because the car is designed for Max, but in those other cases, it's because the driver isn't as good, or experienced etc. That is what we're talking about. In game, the Mercs will finish 5-6 and the Astons 7-8, because that's where they are in the car hierarchy. The driver doesn't matter in F1M, unless they're utterly terrible compared to their teammate (i.e. Piastri and Norris in game). [Also, you don't need to at me, I can see when there's a reply haha]

shell gyro
# astral tiger Are you seriously suggesting that Stroll or Russell aren't comfortable in their ...

It seems you don't like reading any opinions outside yours.
I was detailing Perez issues which has nothing to do with stroll or Russell because unlike any other driver Perez is the only driver alongside max that we can say had the best car in real life and in game for a year in every track Maybe except Singapore , so he is the perfect example of contrasting performance in game and real Life and how such issues can be implemented in game to spice things up
Since you can't even exercise the patient to read so there is no need to explain further to you because if you actually watch F1 not just Sunday grand Prix you will understand all my points

astral tiger
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I mean, you can't accept that we're not only talking about Perez here. I have tried several times to explain this and you've ignored it every time to continue going on about Perez. We're talking about the whole grid ending up in a 2-by-2 in the driver's championship in game, which is the problem identified in the opening posts.

shell gyro
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And I have already explained to you why I used Perez as an example because he is the only driver in-game and in real life that had a dominant car all year long .
Ferrari Merc Aston unlike in game where all alternating between 2 to 6 on car performance metric depending on the track ...so they can't be used as an example ..we can disagree it is allowed
Ciao

eternal basin
# astral tiger True, there could be more done regarding Driver Ratings. (I'd like to see 'Exper...

The guy turned this conversation in a discussion about Perez. My point about driver rating is because I believe that if the ratings had more discrepancy, the results would be as you want, such as in the Norris Piastri example. I totally agree it’s needed. The drivers make a huge difference in real life. The fact that Red Bull never had a 1-2 in the WDC is a proof, even being dominant so many times.

unique anvil
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I think there are two different problems here. The game can make a difference between drivers in terms of skills, but unfortunately there are overrated (Stroll, Bottas) and underrated (Piastri, Albon) drivers who perform accordingly.

The other is the Perez case. Mbbman2 has summed up the point well about driver preferences. This is the root of the problem. There are drivers like Perez who have a driving style that works well, it just doesn't suit all car characteristics. The solution would be to adapt to cars with those characteristics. Unfortunately, he is not good at that because he has difficulty adapting. Some drivers are good at adapting and some are not. Then their performance goes down, their confidence goes down and they go into a deep slump.

The question is, how can we incorporate this attribute into the game? A name is not difficult to find (driving style adaptation) and it has a good place under the consistency category. But what will we link it to, when will Perez perform well and when will he perform badly? Mbbman2 would probably reply to this by saying let's add understeer options to the developments, but I don't think that's how it works. That's not how the teams develop, they want to make the car as fast and grippy as possible. I'm also sure that if they had that preference, they would choose the neutral because everything else can be built from that.

shell gyro
# unique anvil I think there are two different problems here. The game can make a difference be...

You get my point but I am always of the opinion that the car should be tailored more in the direction of the fastest driver...
I like the way the redbull is tailored for max because he likes oversteering and the redbull is faster when driving that way

I just think such variables should find a way into the game , it helps to either nerf some drivers or buff some drivers.
More variability with car set up and driver preference actually playing huge importance in building driver confidence .
All these can make a driver go slower or faster in some track depending on these preferences
This can be tied to the adaptability rating of the driver which determines how well a driver can adapt over a season to a car not suited to his liking.

This for me are little intangibles that can spice up results just like real Life

Actually real F1 teams actually have 3 options in terms of car development, they can either make it oversteering neutral or understeering. If you follow F1 you will know the new pirielli tyres favours oversteering development pathway. So adding it to your car development project is actually a thing

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/pirelli-plans-stronger-f1-front-tyre-for-2023-to-dial-out-understeer/10329084/

Sorry if I rant too much about understeering or oversteering but if you watch F1 alot you would have noticed that driver preference ,car default set up and track specific set up are the three main factors that affect driver performance fluctuations race by races...one driver who was notoriously fast but suffered from narrow set up window was vettel.

I know these stuff would be difficult to bring into the game but if they do ,it will definitely spice things up just like real Life

#

Lastly like you said there are some overrated drivers in the game .
I think bottas still get a pass for his Merc days
While stroll his pace stats Is average unlike bottas but where does he get his speed from ? I really have no answer to that

One thing I also noticed too this year is that accuracy got a huge buff....a driver with medium pace values with high accuracy can be faster than a driver who has good pace stats with low accuracy values

crimson blade
# shell gyro You get my point but I am always of the opinion that the car should be tailored ...

in reality I don't see anything very complicated about it (I'm not saying it's trivial) but it would be enough to introduce front / rear balance in the car statistics (if it's in the center it's neutral) and 2 driver statistics; preference and adaptability.
at that point with the car set-up if a car has basic oversteer but you want to make it understeer it loses a lot of pace and/or tire wear. in the photo an example of car setup

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Balance front / rear

shell gyro
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Something like this will be perfect if implemented.
Set up should mean more than a mini game

crimson blade
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yes, there should be different characteristics of the driver for the setup feedback with the ability of the track engineer and together with the test programs the free practices would become very interesting

unique anvil