idle crest
If Nic as gravy activates hook, attacks with an ally, hits Tyler's hero, and Tyler activates ripple away, does Nic create a gold?
My reading is yes, because the hook gives the effect to an attack (with the ally creating an attack proxy which gains the hook on-hit) whereas ripple away is targeting action cards.
Is this correct?
quasi plinth
You are correct.
final thunder
that is correct, the gold creation is an ability of the attack proxy and not the action (ally) card that created it per 1.4.3e
1.4.3e Effects that reference or apply specifically to an attack-proxy do not reference or apply to its attack-source.
trail path
What about an attack action card? Would ripple away affect the gold generation?
livid kite
What about an attack action card? Would ripple away affect the gold generation?
Yes it will -1 Gold
When an attack action card attacks, the attack is attack-card
winter kiln
that is correct, the gold creation is an ability of the attack proxy and not the...
Does 1.4.3a not indicate that the attack proxy carries forward all the types/subtype of the source of the attack?
I guess maybe card isn't a type 🤔
final thunder
the relevant part of 1.4.3a for this interaction is It can only be referenced by effects using the object identity "attack", which specifies that things referring to action cards will not affect an attack proxy
winter kiln
yeeee "card" not being type and being an object identity instead explains why Hook still works
final thunder
yeah, it's the "card" part
winter kiln
Now does Loot The Hold/Avast Ye/etc also work the same way, because unlike Hook, those did come from an action card, but are still being applied to the attack proxy that isn't a card?
final thunder
same way, the ability is being given to the attack proxy and isn't coming from the card directly
winter kiln
makes sense, thanks for explaining!
chilly phoenix
Doesn’t rule 7.2.4a make it so the ally itself is the attack though and not an attack proxy since allies are living objects?
quasi plinth
Doesn’t rule 7.2.4a make it so the ally itself is the attack though and not an a...
7.2.4a is just saying that if the attack-source is a living object, that is attacking, not the player, so there is no "attacking hero"
Because you're activating an Attack ability, you create an attack-proxy, same as a weapon
chilly phoenix
Ah okay
chilly phoenix
I’m still not quite seeing it because I thought allies were still card objects while they are permanent objects and weapons only make an attack proxy because they are non-card objects with an attack ability.
1.2.2d refers to ‘A card with the subtype attack on the stack, an attack-proxy on the stack, an attack-layer on the stack, or an attacking object on the combat chain has the object identity "attack."’ I don’t see what an attacking object would be referring to if not allies and other non-weapon attack abilities
quasi plinth
Weapons are definitely card objects, but attack-proxies are non-card object.
1.2.2d is one of several types of object identities.
chilly phoenix
Wrong line, my fault
So there is an attacking hero
I’m still confused because 7.2.4a says that it becomes attacking and 1.2.2d includes attacking objects under the definition of “attacks” implying no need or reason for an attack-proxy
quasi plinth
7.2.4 is just saying that there is no attacking hero, because the attack-source is a living object. If you attack with an ally, you are not considered to be attacking, the ally is.
1.4.3 says "An attack-proxy is a non-card object with the attack ability[8.3.1] that represents the attack of another object (attack-source)." (emphasis mine)
If you activate an Attack ability of a permanent, it creates an attack-proxy on the combat chain.
Whether it's a weapon or an ally. 1.4.3b actually uses the example of Cintari Sellsword.
chilly phoenix
Allies are card objects though
quasi plinth
Yes
chilly phoenix
Voiding 1.4.3
quasi plinth
No
A proxy is a non-card object.
It represents another object that has the Attack ability.
quasi plinth
The "Attack" ability of a weapon and of an ally are functionally the same.
When you activate the Attack ability of a permanent that is a living object (as opposed to a non-living object like a weapon), the living object (ally) is considered to be attacking, rather than the controlling player.
Because it does not have the subtype "Attack" like an attack action card, it does not move to the combat chain, and instead creates an attack-proxy that represents the attack-source (the ally permanent itself), just like a weapon does.
An attack-proxy inherits the properties of its attack-source, with the exception of activated and resolution abilities of its attack-source.
chilly phoenix
I’m just confused as to the inclusion of attacking objects in 1.2.2d and 7.2.4a implying that the living object itself is attacking as an ‘attack object’ and not a generated attack-proxy as there is with weapons.
The inclusion of 7.2.4a separate from 7.2.3b seems to imply that the ally becomes attacking as the active-attack and not a generated proxy.
There is no similar ruling referring to when a weapon attacks. The weapons attack-proxy becomes the active-attack and that attack-proxy is considered attacking on the chain link. Not the weapon itself. 7.2.4a says that the living object becomes attacking implying that it is the active-attack rather than an attack proxy
chilly phoenix
When you activate the Attack ability of a permanent that is a living object (as ...
But the definition of objects with the definition ‘attack’ in 1.2.2b includes an attacking object on the combat chain entirely separate from a card with the subtype attack, and attack-proxy, or an attack-layer on the stack
quasi plinth
The ally isn't on the combat chain
Attack-cards go to the combat chain, otherwise it's an attack-proxy
1.2.2d is saying that things on the stack are objects.
It's not defining attacks, it's just saying that attacks on the stack are indeed objects.
quasi plinth
The ally isn't on the combat chain
This technically isn't true as an attack-source moves to the chain with it's proxy, but it doesn't have the subtype attack so it doesn't function the way an attack action does
chilly phoenix
1.2.2d is defining what objects have the object identity ‘attack’. Not stating that they are objects
The ally becomes attacking though. I’m fairly certain an object outside of the combat chain cannot be considered attacking. Only active-attack objects become attacking
quasi plinth
It doesn't become attacking, it is considered to have attacked instead of the controlling player
chilly phoenix
When an attack-proxy is involved the attack-proxy is the attacking object and active-attack
quasi plinth
If you swing with a weapon or AA, you are the attacking-hero. If you active the attack ability of a living object, you are not considered to have attacked
chilly phoenix
7.2.4a specifically says that the living object becomes attacking
hot snow
the purpose of 7.2.4 is to make cards like this work https://content.fabrary.net/cards/DYN152.webp
chilly phoenix
As the first line
quasi plinth
Yeah, I'm getting confused because this is just going in circles
Allies make attack proxies because of the Attack ability
"Attack" as an ability is fundamentally the same across all cards with that ability
If you activate an Attack ability, a proxy is created to represent the source of that ability, full-stop.
chilly phoenix
Where exactly does it state that?
quasi plinth
1.4.3 details attack proxies
chilly phoenix
What an attack-proxy is defined beneath attack in the abilities chapter. But nowhere does it state that activating the ability is what creates an attack-proxy, just an attack-layer
quasi plinth
8.3.1 defines "Attack" as an ability
And explains how it creates a proxy
You activate the ability, it makes a layer. Because this layer has the attack ability inherited from it's attack-source, it is an attack-proxy.
Once the attack-proxy layer resolves, the attack-proxy and its attack-source move to the combat chain.
chilly phoenix
What is 1.2.2d referring to when it mentions attacking objects on the chain then? If 7.2 is meant to happen in order then even with an attack-proxy they are both moved to the chain link as part of 7.2.3b. Then, 7.2.4a makes the living object attacking which under 1.2.2d makes it an ‘attack object’
Actually, I think I see what I was missing, 7.2.3b defines the attack proxy as the active-attack. Even though the ally becomes an ‘attack object’ there isn’t a step that redefines what the active-attack is and only the active-attack is considered to have hit
olive oak
This was a lot and I had trouble following. If Gravy activates gold baited hook and attacks with an ally will Ripple away prevent the gold generation on hit or no?
winter kiln
It will probably not prevent the creation
