Theoretical StW plus Flicked Attack

[glossy otter]

Hey y’all, an interesting interaction came up at my local armory last night and I wanted to ask about it.

A player asked if flicking a dagger that had previously been used to attack added 1 to Salt the Wound. From my understanding it doesn’t because a) The dagger is being flicked, not the attack proxy on the chain and b) The dagger in question doesn’t have the “attack” type.

However, what if instead of an equipment dagger, Kiss of Death was flicked? Since KoD is an attack and flicking it means it has hit, would it count? And if KoD had previously hit when it attacked, would StW count it twice after the flick? Just from reading the cards I would assume yes to the first question and no to the second, but would that be incorrect and why?

[neon tendon]

It's not an Attack when it is flicked, it just has the attack subtybe.

So flicking it would not count for Salt the Wound

[zealous tundra]

It’s on the chain as an attacking card tho.

[neon tendon]

yes, but flick knives is "flicking" the object itself, not the attack

It is not resolving as a card on the stack, or as an attack on an active chain link at the time. Same reason you don't get go again from flicking it.

[zealous tundra]

It’s an attack on the chain and flick knives are causing that object (an attack) to deal one damage and then be destroyed. It isn’t a card resolving so you don’t get go again, but I think it should still see it as an attack, unlike flicking a dagger weapon. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[glossy otter]

but thats not the reason you don't get go again from flicking it, you don't get go again from flicking it because flicking it doesn't cause anything that would trigger the go again

[neon tendon]

An attack is considered to have hit if it deals damage to an attack-target during the Damage Step of combat.

Flick knives is causing a dagger object to deal 1 damage, and creates a hit event for that dagger, but it's not the same as an attack hitting.

[neon tendon]

It's not an attack resolving and going through the combat steps, so, it's the same reason really. There's no Damage Step or Resolution Step for these things to occur

[nocturne pulsar]

7.5.5. An attack is considered to have hit if it deals damage to an attack-target during the Damage Step of combat. The hit-event is otherwise identical to a deal {p} damage event (see Rule 8.5.3) and only occurs during the Damage Step of combat.
7.5.5a If the attack-target loses life as a result of anything except damage dealt by the active-attack by the hit-event during the Damage Step of combat, then the attack is not considered to have hit.

I would say flicking a KoD does not count for purposes of StW due to the above rules

[muted tangle]

If that was the case then any on hits applied to KoD wouldn't also trigger when it's flicked, but they do.

[neon tendon]

Some do, like Toxicity, which is applied to an attack action card specifically, rather than an attack.

[nova cypress]

All of them do

[analog sapphire]

black widow effect on a kiss of death would fail when flicked if that was true(it isn't)

[nova cypress]

This seems like the best argument to me so far

But it's still a little weird because "the dagger has hit," yet the dagger in question is an attack

[nocturne pulsar]

yeah i suppose

[neon tendon]

It's creating a hit-event but it's the dagger/attack action card hitting, not the attack on the chain link.

I don't know of any effects that apply to attacks and work with KoD but I haven't dug through assassin stuff lately

[nova cypress]

Any on hits that are given to KoD trigger when it's flicked

[light flume]

Viewing some release notes for flick knives informs me that the salt the wounds would not give a +1 for any flicked dagger.

[neon tendon]

I'm hesistant to rely on this, because this was designed for weapons, not AAs

[light flume]

Would this be sufficient?

[neon tendon]

Salt the Wound is different, though. It's looking for attacks that hit, not applying an ability to KoD that says "when this hits"

There is indeed a hit-event, but per 7.5.5 it is not an attack hitting.

The examples of Toxicity and Plunder Run are specifically looking for an attack action card hitting, which is not necessarily the same as an attack hitting.

[light flume]

The way that I am interpreting this is that while KoD is an attack action card it is not an attack that is hitting so Salt the Wound will not recieve the +1 from a flick. Same applies to a dagger weapon.

[neon tendon]

Exactly. An attack is only considered to have hit if it deals damage in the damage step of combat.

Daggers are even funkier because their attack-proxies do the hitting on the combat chain, but the dagger itself hits when you flick it.

[glossy otter]

I think this answers the question, but 7.5.5a is just a clarification on what it means for an attack to hit specifically when the attack is attacking right? So it works as an explanation, but it isn’t super concrete

[glossy otter]

Small correction, toxicity is an on-hit that KoD gains, plunder run’s draw effect is a continuous effect that lasts through the turn

[neon tendon]

Yeah, sure, but it just needs an attack action card to hit, which was the important part.

[glossy otter]

Yeah, I agree with you on that, just didn’t want to lump them together because I’m persnickity

So when a card cares about an attack hitting, it’s referring to an attack that is attacking, not a card with the subtype ‘attack’

Right? Otherwise a flicked KoD would also trigger Burn Up lol

And I don’t want to live in a world where thats possible :P

[neon tendon]

Exactly, which is why some cards specify attack (e.g most warrior stuff) and some cards specify attack action card

[glossy otter]

Gotcha, thanks Alexandra!

[muted tangle]

And so is the black widow agent of chaos, yet a flicked KoD that has had the black widow ability applied to it will trigger on the flick. So effect applied to an attack trigger when that attack is an attack action card that gets flicked, so a flicked attack action that hits is an attack that hits

[neon tendon]

Black Widow adds an ability to an attack object. That ability simply requires a hit-event, which is generated if it deals damage via a flick effect.

I would argue that's fundamentally different from Salt the Wound seeing an attack that has hit on the combat chain.

[light flume]

Did a little more digging. I feel this line is more definitive.

[neon tendon]

Well then I stand corrected!

Can you link this article? It could be useful for future questions

[light flume]

https://fabtcg.com/en/articles/rules-reprise-24-the-hunted-limited/

This one through me through a loop too. 😅

[neon tendon]

Hopefully the CR will be tweaked to reflect that, as they do contradict each other. But, it's good to know. I didn't even think to check for a rules reprise covering it

[leaden sandal]

Moving to the second part of the question, it would only count once. Stw counts "attacks which have hit" and as we've established that you are throwing the same attack from kod its still the same object

[nova cypress]

I wasn't taking about that, I'm saying that Patrick is right, there's no difference between what is flicked in case of KoD.

And regardless, I see we've finally found the definitive answer

[neon tendon]

Yes yes, but the CR says otherwise. That was my point.

[muted tangle]

I am still confused as to what contradiction you think there is, would you mind explaining again?

[neon tendon]

7.5.5.

Says an attack is considered to have hit if it deals damage in the Damage Step. That's the only time the CR mentions an attack hitting.

[muted tangle]

But an attacking kiss of death is an attack and flick knives makes it hit

[neon tendon]

But it doesn't hit in the damage step with Flick. It's just a dagger hitting in the reaction step.

[nocturne pulsar]

i think it's not necessarily a contradiction but i think it's still wording that could be tweaked

[simple coral]

Reminder of the general rule that when a card says X happens, it can ignore rules. I think that's the part you're missing. It would be nice for the CRM to mention that exception though.

[muted tangle]

I still do not understand your point

[neon tendon]

There's nothing on the cards that says this interaction happens

[muted tangle]

Except the fact that an attacking kiss of death is an attack and flick knives makes it hit

[simple coral]

Flick Knives says the dagger hits. In the case of Kiss Of Death, the dagger is also an attack, unlike with weapons.

[neon tendon]

Except that 7.5.5. says otherwise

The fact is that KoD turned flick effects upside-down and the CR wasn't updated to reflect what it can do.

There is no provision in the rules allowing KoD to count as an attack hitting when flicked, it's only in that Rules Reprise.

[muted tangle]

I need you to explain why, not just quote a rule. I see nothing there that states kiss of death isn't an attack when it's flicked

[neon tendon]

Because it's not a resolved attack hitting on a chain link during the Damage Step of combat

Quoting a rule is just fine because the rule is pretty clear.

[muted tangle]

But I disagree so clearly it isn't

[neon tendon]

And I've already explained it like 3 times prior to this.

[simple coral]

There doesn't need to be a provision in the CR, the provision is from Kiss Of Death being both a dagger and an attack at all times, and Flick Knives saying that the dagger, which is also an attack in the situation of this one particular dagger, has hit.

[neon tendon]

There does need to be a provision, because the rules don't allow it.

[muted tangle]

1.0.1a states that effect text trumps CR text, flick knives says it hits, so the effect says it causes kiss of death to hit

Kiss of death is an attack while attacking, so it's an attack that hits via flick knives

[neon tendon]

Flick Knives creates a hit event with a dagger, that's not inherently the same as an attack hitting

[simple coral]

Do you think they'd need to add a provision in the CRM if they ever print an Instant that says "this resolves immediately without going on the stack"

[muted tangle]

The object that hits is an attack, so it's an attack that hits

[neon tendon]

Irrelevant. There's nothing on any card text that supercedes 7.5.5.

[simple coral]

Kiss Of Death being both a dagger and an attack, unlike weapons, does. Not in as explicit a manner, but it does

[neon tendon]

Yeah I'm over this. Neither of you want to see the logic here, so I'm done repeating myself when I've already explained the differences in very clear language multiple times.

[analog sapphire]

Well seems to be the judge quiz so we'll find out
https://bsky.app/profile/fabjudges.bsky.social/post/3lo76ayp6j22p

Judges of Rathe (@fabjudges.bsky.social)

Tyler controls spider's bite and flick knives. They attack with SB, kiss of death with go again, hurl, paying the additional cost to throw KoD, then activate flick knives targeting SB. All hit. When they play Salt the Wound, how much will it attack for?

Bluesky · May 2, 2025, 3:46 PM

[simple coral]

I mean this is covered by "the attack already hit", so not really unfortunately

[analog sapphire]

Hit with kiss flick kiss is this 1 hit or 2 hit 🙂

[simple coral]

^

[west wing]

There doesn't need to be text on KoD or on Flick Knives outlining the interaction here, the text is in several places combined in the CR

1.01a is the CR text that allows effects to supercede rules

It's what allows Flick Knives to say "if damage is dealt this way, the dagger has hit", even though it's hitting in reactions instead of in the damage step. Presumably there is no issue with this part, as it's been an interaction in the current CR and card pool for years.

Kiss of Death is the new wrinkle in that it's a dagger (subtype), and sometimes (like when it's an attacking object on the chain) it's an attack (object identity)

KoD on Chain Link 1 is considered to be attacking until it leaves the chain (7.2.4) which means it has the object identity "attack" until it leaves the chain.

Flick Knives in reactions on CL2 first instructs "target dagger you control" to deal 1 damage, which in the case of KoD means target attack is dealing 1 damage. If damage is dealt this way, the dagger (the attack) has hit. Only now do we destroy the dagger, and only now does KoD stop being an attack.

KoD being flicked is not just a dagger being flicked, it is also an attack being flicked. The card has both the attack object identity and the dagger subtype, and something something transitive property

[simple coral]

Hm, I do have an additional question/confirmation now. Assuming a Ninja/Assassin who has Mask Of Momentum, the previous 2 chain links have hit, and you flick KoD on CL3... MoM draw from it hitting? Or does the attack object identity not include it being an attack action card

[west wing]

If the attack is a dagger and the dagger is hitting, the attack is hitting

[west wing]

I do believe MoM would draw here, which is pretty strong in this hypothetical Yorick game featuring a Ninja and an Assassin

[nova cypress]

spoiling the qotd a day in advance XD

[leaden sandal]

Assuming I'm right haha

[leaden sandal]

The MoM interaction is definitely more up for debate from what I remember as the attack action card that hits has to be the third or higher chain link in a row to hit

Not just hit on the third or higher chain link

[simple coral]

Once per turn, when an attack action card you control is the third or higher chain link in a row to hit, draw a card. hm yeah, that actually sounds right

while an attack action card may hit for Pouncing Lynx's trigger, it's not the chain link hitting for MoM

[leaden sandal]

Thankfully its a corner case upf one haha, would love to get a definitive answer on it sometime though!

[nova cypress]

Of course you are

[nova cypress]

well, turns out you're not wrong 😂