#Crank Effects and Floor Rulings

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

burnt pelican
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#1 Tyler has missed the opportunity. No infraction. Information was gained so reversing decisions (TRP 5.4) doesn't apply

#2 It is clear what Tyler intended to do (see TRP 5.2), so he is considered to have cracked the item. Again, no infraction.

#3 Same as in 3, I believe Tyler proposed a shortcut (TRP 5.2), so he is considered to have cracked the item. No infraction.

#4 see TRP 5.2 and TRP 5.3. As long as the limits stated there apply (i.e. it is not done to cause confusion), it is perfectly reasonable to save time by never placing a counter there. Also read PPG 3.9:

Communication does not need to be verbal. Physical representation such as position in the play-space, or use of markers can be considered communication from that player.

floral skiff
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items entering with counters is also an identity-replacement effect, so strictly speaking the player needs to order them properly to use crank at all

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it follows the formatting for it

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I can mention it to the rule team but the intention is for it to be handled with other replacement effects

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well again, due to needing to order replacement effects one would strictly have to handle the "enters with counters" identity-replacement effect before crank

floral skiff
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the event being modified per the CR entry (labelled [CONDITION]) is "this enters the arena", the [MODIFICATION] is "you may remove a steam
counter from it. If you do, gain an action point"

burnt pelican
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from CR standpoint, you need to first place the counter on the object and only then remove it, yes.

However, games are usually not played according to the exact text of CR - that's where TRP comes into play with its sections 5.2 and 5.3.

floral skiff
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specifically during 6.5.3 (self-replacement and identity-replacement effects) following this procedure

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it's a modification, not necessarily a replacement (similar to changing an object entering with counters)

there's a lot of contextual info for handling this, I'll scroll back up and address some

floral skiff
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Assuming comp REL (these should be accompanied by education on proper resolution/timing of spark w/ crank), obv exact context and information from investigation should be taken in to consideration as application of policy isn't always black and white

1 could be handled similarly to a looking at extra cards as a partial fix for GRV if we can't determine what was drawn, otherwise if we can determine what card was drawn (i.e. it's the only card in hand) you can do a full rewind to where the item is entering play and reshuffle the deck

2 I'd issue a GRV and advise to communicate crank effects better. Tyler (presumably) was always planning on cranking and didn't communicate as such, and now both players have information as to the card gained from resolving spark so rewinding further as in #1 feels too potentially advantageous for Jerry

3 is obv very similar to 2 with gained information added in. with Tyler (presumably) always intending to pass turn after drawing I'd repeat the procedure in #2

2 and 3 are really contextual on, like, timing and exact behavior/game state that you'd need to investigate (did they draw the card and think before trying to go to the end of their turn and put a counter on the item, did they have access to other cards they could have played regardless of what they drew)

floral skiff
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what advantage is being gained if they have to go back and decide before getting a different random card? They had an (incorrect) assumption on how the rules work and we're educating and restoring the game to a correct state (ofc assuming no ulterior motives from investigation)

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I think 2 is much easier than 3 in theory

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Sure, but they were under the impression that they could make the decision later than they actually could. If we remove the information gained (card goes back, reshuffle to change the top) we're letting them make the decision at the correct game state and not punishing them for a lack of game knowledge

floral skiff
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there's some info needed from investigation but I'm strongly in the camp of rewinding to the item entering and having them continue from there, in the interest of balancing education with equity and promoting great games

image.png
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A lot of things with policy will be, yeah

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imo that's a resolution you could arrive at but it may end with a negative player experience

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I think saying "we're forcing a decision on you because you didn't know what you were doing with this technical interaction" is more negative than "we're going to have your opponent walk this back because they had a misunderstanding, we're removing any in-game info they've acquired by doing this wrong"

burnt pelican
floral skiff
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I'm rethinking on Tyler having other cards in hand, but the "default choice" being not removing a counter is giving me pause. I do think not messing with cards in this case would be better then

burnt pelican
floral skiff
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@balmy bridge @warped lynx thoughts since you guys are hanging out?

warped lynx
# floral skiff Assuming comp REL (these should be accompanied by education on proper resolution...

I can get behind these fixes.

The important thing to focus on is that our main goals are the following:

1 - Maintain the integrity of the game and making sure that no advantage is gained by either player as a result of the miscommunication or the fix that we want to apply.

2 - Educate the players and share possible solutions to avoid problematic situations from recurring. (Careful not to give strategic advise)

Arriving at the table after any of the enumerated scenarios above can be quite delicate and tricky to navigate from our perspective, hence the solution may vary depending on context. A thorough investigation will be the best approach I can recommend.

Establishing a one-fits-all solution is not what the TRP & PPG are all about. It's meant to allow us to use our judgement and be flexible because the same things can happen in different situations leading to a different fix due to some details making it different.

In the end, we should all strive to play (and watch) fair games of FaB.

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As for some clarity regarding Crank, what makes this a clear replacement effect are the first few words in the parnthesis, As this enters the arena....

If Crank were a triggered effect, it would be worded something like When this enters the arena....

If that were the case, many things would not function as intended.

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Typically, most triggered effects begin with the words When or Whenever (See CR 6.6.1) and use the stack to resolve.

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yes, thank you

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I could've seen the cards being worded as follows:

This enters the arena with X steam counters.

Crank (reminder text)

At the start of your turn, destroy this unless you remove a steam counter from it.

...

The issue with this format is that it would take too much space on the already crowded text box

floral skiff
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It works fine (given you order your replacement effects correctly, which is generally implied)

would it help if you viewed it as a trigger facading as a replacement effect to make it work the way we want?

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item is coming in, there's two identity replacement effects: one that adds 3 counters, and crank

I choose to do the one to add counters first, so the event of "this enters the arena" is modified (phrasing from the CR) so the item is coming in with 3 counters

now we handle crank, I have the option of modifying the "this enters the arena" event further by "removing one steam counter. if you do, gain an action point"

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so again, identity replacement effects specifically use "modifications to the event", we're modifying how this object is entering the arena

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this is also an identity replacement effect

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(which I've flagged to look at since it doesn't fit the format of identity replacements)

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I agree items entering with counters doesn't fit the current verbiage for identity-replacement effects

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actually it does, derp

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that's why the ordering I keep bringing up matters 🤷

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if there was some effect that said "as an item with crank enters the arena, remove 10 counters from it", and you had to resolve it second (for some arbitrary reason) you could order it crank (without the option to remove a counter), remove 10, then X counters

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identity replacement effects happen as they enter

warped lynx
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When you apply a replacement effect, the original effect didn't happen and the replacement happened instead

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#1165268998435385395 message

You could order them differently, but there is one obvious intended way to order these effects

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If you order it as follows:

  • Crank
  • Enters with X steam counters

Then you have essentially declined the crank effect

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because you cannot remove a steam counter before it gets them

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items and auras all enter with nothing on them and then a replacement effect changes that

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Crank also says you may remove a steam counter, it's not mandatory. If there is nothing to be removed, nothing happens

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that's where ordering the replacement effects comes in

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I must toggle off from this conversation as I feel we are continuing to run in circles

(bad pun intended, I'll see myself out now...)