mellow sundial
Following scenario came up in our group when testing Vynnset
Vynnset has an Eloquence token and 1 AP
Vynnset has Shadow Puppetry and Funeral Moon in hand
She plays Shadow Puppetry and at this point Eloquence and Vynnset trigger correct? So the question is can they be used in a way so that you first pay 1 life, play Funeral Moon as instant, and cash in on the Eloquence for Funeral Moon first gaining an AP before you get the one from Shadow Puppetry?
late rain
Yes, both Vynnset and eloquence trigger at the same time from playing shadow puppetry. The turn player decides the order of all simultaneous triggers, they may decide to resolve the Vynnset trigger first so they can pay a life and turn on funeral moon's "as though it were an instant" clause before the eloquence trigger resolves
mellow sundial
Thanks, that's pretty cool
Follow-up actually, so the Eloquence isn't bound to giving the go again to Puppetry here until it resolves correct? If it wasn't a Puppetry but an NAA without go again, the Eloquence would be destroyed on resolving the Funeral Moon layer and not on resolution of the first NAA giving 2x go again correct?
late rain
Yes
mellow sundial
many thanks 👍
midnight kite
Yes
This seems intuitive to me, but I'm curious which rule/subrule specifically causes this interaction.
Looking through the CR gives me 1.7.9a & 5.3.2c... which seems to me like it would give go again on both layer resolutions?
1.7.9a Activated-layers and triggered-layers exist independently of their source. If the source of an
activated-layer or triggered-layer ceases to exist, it does not prevent the resolution of that layer.
5.3.2c If the resolution of a layer generates two or more effects, effects are generated immediately and
in the order specified by the resolution abilities. If any generated effect fails, the remaining effects
continue to be generated.
vestal rover
I think it was a misunderstanding of the question. Eloquence’s effect is not conditional on the token being destroyed so it would give 2x go agains. One for Funeral Moon and one to the misc NAA.
paper osprey
so you can effectively bank multiples AP but say, playing 3 NAA as instants with a single eloquence token ?
nova badge
Yes, as long as it is your turn and those instants are played while the eloquence token is in the arena but not yet destroyed.
This interaction is the exact same as the multiple taxing from a single frostbite.
midnight kite
not exactly the same since the tax from frostbite is a continuous(?) effect and not triggered effect
if 5.3.2c was the opposite (any effect fails, remaining effects also fail), multiple eloquence wouldn't work, but you'd still get multiple taxing from frostbite
paper osprey
This specific interaction wouldn't work with multpiels eloquence token ?
midnight kite
if 5.3.2c was worded the opposite way, eloquence ability layer has 2 effects on resolution: destroy itself, and give go again. Since the destroy effect fails, the go again would also fail to resolve (again, this is a purely hypothetical situation and not how the rules work currently AFAIK).
midnight kite
This specific interaction wouldn't work with multpiels eloquence token ?
or I misread and you're referring to having multiple eloquence tokens at the same time... then no you don't get multiple AP from 1 NAA... go again doesn't stack
paper osprey
ah yes, that was silly I know that already 😄 my bad
mellow sundial
Clearing that up is a big help! we were stumbling there for sure
this is a very neat interaction, it always feels like Runeblade players should definitely polish their rules knowledge a lot lol
mellow sundial
Still some followups 😅 when exactly will the Eloquence be destroyed here? Is it on resolution of the layer created by playing the 1st NAA?
late rain
The first of it's triggers to resolve
mellow sundial
Ok so on the 2nd NAA I see and the first created layer just stays to resolve
Thanks again!
spring widget
if 5.3.2c was worded the opposite way, eloquence ability layer has 2 effects on ...
Even if destroy will fail trigger will still do as much as its can so it will still give go again
hushed moss
Do we get a Realese notes about this?
nova badge
We likely will, the Rules team is hard at work reviewing the drafts, as mentioned in the Judge Bulletin they've been hard at work since before spoiler season started along with a CR 2.5 update
hushed moss
Yeah I hope so (no offending or rushing here), cuz I see the Eloquence token specifies with giving "the card" go again so I'm a little bit confused here
late rain
Eloquence works, in writing, the same way as runechants, destroying a runechant because of its trigger isn't what deals the arcane damage, similarly with eloquence destroying eloquence with its trigger isn't what gives go again.
The trigger resolving is what gives go again, it's not at all dependant on the trigger also destroying eloquence, if it were it would say something to the effect of "when you play a naa card, destroy eloquence, if you do the card gains go again"
I haven't personally gotten time to review most of the release notes, but I will make sure to double check that this interaction is included in them.
hushed moss
Yeah, I get it now XD
Thanks for your patience
late rain
Of course :) it's a weird one so I totally get it