US - Utah

[obsidian storm]

Ok. I'm going to messege nullrouten. I've been going through his posts and there's a lot of gold here.

#1367293403867516979 message

[leaden crow]

A lot of the amazing filters he has found have just been used stuff from ebay.
#antennas message

[prisma saddle]

hah nice video. ya that is an epic spot! game changer.

[leaden crow]

So my calculation here is only the SNR on the last hop. It is usually you hopping through KR1P
!a2ebc068 --> !e0d01bcc (3.25dB)

[prisma saddle]

I think thats a good idea and something we loook into. scan the waves. etc.. good idea...

[real cedar]

It is rather frustrating that it has to hop through that node when there is no reason it should at all. You know what I mean. I have direct line of sight through my trace route tests to a good majority of the routers.. I have a router much higher than his up on the hill on the Weber State campus. Yet everything still hops through his node. Not saying that's his fault or anything. I just don't understand why the network is doing that. 😂

It is bewildering

[obsidian storm]

speed?

could that hop be much quicker? or maybe stronger and easier to decode?

[prisma saddle]

once client base comes that should be resolved. hopefully. @leaden crow

[leaden crow]

I have seen multiple inexplicable cases where some random node performs much better than one with better placement / hardware.
This is why I think baymesh is big brain with adding the SDR to their mountain nodes. You might be able to answer that question (especially if it's interference related).

In either case, it could be good reasoning for KR1P to stay router-late up north for now.

[real cedar]

The RTL is not a good SDR for that in my opinion. Let me go find one. That's a budget SDR that has much better. Circuitry

I'm a huge fan of the lime SDR but I would have to go make my own budget board for it because they're only buyable boards are really expensive

[leaden crow]

Yeah, I wasn't advocating for a specific SDR. Although the RTL is really well supported.

[real cedar]

I think there's a lot of SDRs out there that have pretty good support. It's just the RTL is pretty cheap. I mean it would work. I'm not saying it won't. I actually have been trying to find a way to make it a lot better, but the most I've been able to do is switch out for a better Crystal oscillator and a couple references

I played around with a Pluto SDR at one point but those things are really expensive

If the RTL ends up being the cheapest and most effective yeah just go for it

I'm definitely going to do some research real quick. When my brain functions 🤣

@leaden crow if you want a really nice one that doesn't break the bank, I personally own one of these
https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-018639&srsltid=AfmBOop0c3Lcl_vKvkKbSAFDdv3aZMbHxrb1cZJNvjP6_3LQPPGUXVWu

They are a fucking amazing SDR

Totally Overkill. Probably for our needs but very nice SDR

[ivory canyon]

I'll change it to router_late right now.

Okay, I set it to router_late. Test away!

[prisma saddle]

hmm how bad would it be if there was a “trace route” broadcast option that would basically send a packet out that says. if your a router send me your node info. fast way to get routers in the list. lol. but flood the network.

[obsidian storm]

Why do you want routers in the list?

[prisma saddle]

ah just to test signal is all.

when driving around.

[obsidian storm]

I'm going to do a group buy for the cav filters.

The ones that are nicely tuned for meshtastic. Let me know if you want one.

[leaden crow]

It's unfortunate I didn't do this test with the same antenna, but I got a good improvement when I added the Acasom cavity filter. I believe nullroutens filters will be even better.
#1197577977781821541 message

[real cedar]

All right Utah frequency 51 people.. it seems that our attempt to have a neighbor info collection channel has caused a bad experience. We're all going to put longfast back into the primary slot. Anybody who was using it. Please do the same. In the meantime though, we are reaching out to the developers to figure out what we should do to collect all the data we want

[inner jay]

Does this affect anyone who wasn't in that channel?

[obsidian storm]

Nope, Other than the map will look a little fuller by 5-8 nodes

[real cedar]

So @obsidian storm , c6c is now longfast primary

I'm working on aur

It's so heavily utilized. I have less luck getting to it with remote admin but I should be able to

[prisma saddle]

hmm the problem with a car node that parks under a tree.

[umbral ice]

Not sure how this got through, but my first UT node popped up sometime

[leaden crow]

Tropospheric ducting?

[umbral ice]

If I had to guess

[obsidian storm]

That's who you picked up

[real cedar]

I know how. 😂

A hacker space guy was headed to Idaho

My guess is once he reached past brigham

He was able to completely the link

[umbral ice]

LOL

[real cedar]

But that is EXTREMELY promising

FPR goes up and we might just have a solid link

@reef ridge status?

[umbral ice]

I still need to update ISR and then get my directional aimed up at MHR. I went down for an emergency gallbladder removal and so I have to push or beg someone else to run all my routers

[reef ridge]

Working on the enclosure right now, actually. My FemtoFoxes are stuck in customs hell atm.

UPS sent an email last minute that it cleared though, so here's hoping by sometime in the middle of the week. 🤞

[real cedar]

Do you want mine?

You can pay me back with one when they get here if they aren't making it

[reef ridge]

I assume you have a pro edition, so it won't be a 1-for-1 trade.

[prisma saddle]

you ok dude?

[umbral ice]

Pancreatitis is no joke lmao

[prisma saddle]

haha i offered too. lol.

[reef ridge]

I'll take one of y'all up on the offer if they aren't here by Wednesday. 😅

[real cedar]

Oh yeah I do shoot

[prisma saddle]

which one did you get ? i’m not sure i am sure of the diff.

[leaden crow]

Damn, that sucks!
One of my friends had this happen a couple of years ago. He's good now, but take your diet seriously!! He tried to keep drinking and eating fatty foods afterwords and it almost killed him.

[umbral ice]

Oh yeah definitely doubling down on healthy eating habits. I'd already been making a pretty good change

[prisma saddle]

dang dude.

[reef ridge]

A few small upgrades, more pins for expansion, kill switch breakout, and the biggest deal IMO is a USB port.

[umbral ice]

Down 100 lbs in a year, still working too

[prisma saddle]

well done!

[reef ridge]

Nice job! I know exactly how hard that is.

[umbral ice]

Finally got around to viewshedding the Magic Valley in WISP

DMR(still needs deployed):

PHR(deploying a G2 on a VZW tower):

Kimama Butte (Being upgraded):

MHR:

ISR:

By their powers combined:

[real cedar]

AWESOME.. @obsidian storm once we get things linked together can we add them to the infra maps

[umbral ice]

Trying to coerce someone into Big Southern Butte now lmao

[prisma saddle]

The great Meshed Potato

[real cedar]

Please please please tell me you're going to give it a volcano icon because that's really what it is

🤣

[umbral ice]

I absolutely will hahaha

[real cedar]

That's hilarious! You know I should go down and put something near Delta on pavant Butte

And do the same

I honestly might do it next summer though when I go out to our Derby out there with the mini bike

We do it every summer. Everyone gets in their campers and we head out to Delta

Just a bunch of weirdos in the desert. We set up pools and everything.. 🤣

And I mean nobody's going to get mad at you for drinking and driving your mini bike off road 😂 in the deaert

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Rock_Desert_volcanic_field?wprov=sfla1

Pahvant is the highest point in the active volcanic field down there
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Rock_Desert_volcanic_field?wprov=sfla1

It can see the tintics and Mary's nipple

It's actually a very cool area and it's part of what is the greater marysvale volcanic field

Geographically it occurred in Utah because of crystal stretching due to how the geography here works. And a lot of that is also related to the lithospheric drip underneath the Rocky mountains. This happened mostly because the prior plate the farallon plate slipped under at a very shallow angle in what it's called shallow slab subduction

That's why you see volcanoes out here. It's completely unrelated to the reason why you have volcanoes at craters of the Moon

If any of you have been to the Tushar mountains, it is the remnant of a very large strato volcano.. that's why it's hydrothermally altered and all of the rocks out there are bright, vibrant hues on the peaks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marysvale_volcanic_field?wprov=sfla1

One more useless fact, it is one of the largest volcanic fields in the entire United States

Three of its eruptions were super volcanic eruptions

You can rest easy. It's not likely to do that again. That was a time period during the cenozoic that it was like that and until the Pacific plate does something similar. You probably won't see a volcanic eruption on that scale. Just sparse large volume.. Basaltic eruptions

[real cedar]

@leaden crow on a serious note. Where at Brighton and solitude? Do you think I could put a birdhouse node and get away with it?

That could see one of the Wasatch Crest nodes

So I can light up all the ski resorts and completely cover them

[leaden crow]

Honestly I think figure out your LoS map. I would personally do Catherine or Cardiff pass for accessibility and just choose a tree you can climb.

[real cedar]

Yeah I was leaning Catherine already based on our docs maps

[ivory canyon]

@leaden crow FYI, the Layton Parkway Router was locked up and I had to reboot it. Don't know how long it was in that state but it will probably screw up your measurements. 🙁

[real cedar]

It seems the most reliable but I'll need a few more to dot around. I'll probably do small compact Xiao nodes

[leaden crow]

Mt Wolverine would probably be a good choice. I probably have a panorama from the top. Let me see if I can find it.

[ivory canyon]

Wondering how good it was doing up until that happened though.

[real cedar]

That would be nice. Yeah I've climbed wolverine a lot in the winter on skins for fun

Plus lifts are spinning to get me part of the way up in the summer (season pass holders go for free)

So I could just ride up. Climb the ridge and walk along

[leaden crow]

idk, you'd have to scout. Not a lot of large trees right on Wolverine.

[leaden crow]

It couldn't have been down that long. I have successful traceroutes that hopped through it at 9:36PM and 10:08PM.

[broken turret]

@real cedar You guys still up for helping test the replay thing?

https://github.com/meshtastic/firmware/pull/8049

Note that I am expecting there to be bugs in there, and all my testing to date has been on SHORT_FAST. So please don't deploy it anywhere that you want to remain reliable at present!

[slate urchin]

It’s been a while since I’ve been on Discord and Mesh. But I’m back after moving into a new home. That said, I’m a little nervous because there isn’t anything to connect my house to Punch Up and over the MT I believe.

I moved here

2766 n. Jojo Road. Eagle MT Utah 84005.

[prisma saddle]

ah ya we have one on lake mountain but that’s the east side. working for the west. @keen glen is over there too. should be able to see him for sure. you have a roof node?

[slate urchin]

Just getting the house set up, but I did pick up a solar node if we need to put something up the MT for Eagle MT. Just not sure where lol.

This I what I see now

It looks like I also need to get another node on top of my house.

The one that I have right now, is pointing towards the mountain not the city

Was hoping the tower I can see from my house had one.

[real cedar]

@obsidian storm @prisma saddle we down?

[obsidian storm]

You need to get something on the west mountains.

[prisma saddle]

yup let’s do it!

[prisma saddle]

ya if lowe peak was up that prob would.

[obsidian storm]

Something over here

[prisma saddle]

or flat.

[obsidian storm]

Doesn't even have to be super high up. Just maybe 10 or 15 minutes hike up the mountains

[prisma saddle]

true. dat!

[ember torrent]

@vital hemlock 👍 digging the changes. @main stag thank you both for the data.

[obsidian storm]

I'm building the firmware now and I'm going to put it on Lake

[real cedar]

Awesome. Give me time to finish my masters homework and I'll try to build the firmware for the rak and hopefully Bluetooth ota update c6c

[real cedar]

@obsidian storm actually, could you do us all a favor. Could you build for our common devices we have out here and then post it?

I'd like one person to do the building so we can just eliminate all variables

[keen glen]

I don't yet! Waiting on the new Nebra to come in. I don't see Baird's Base, still just solar:3 in eureka.

[prisma saddle]

oh that was for @slate urchin 🙂

was just linking that you were near there too.

[keen glen]

I realize that now 😂

[prisma saddle]

Any of you ogden layton guys can you trace ce-roof?

[real cedar]

I am still unable to communicate with aur. I can trace it. I can get about 50% of the way through a remote admin, but then it fails

Is anybody running a lot of Trace routes or mesh sense something?

If you are, can I ask that you dial it back to allow me to make a change 🤣

[leaden crow]

Not me. Mine finished in the middle of the night. The most I run is one every 15 minutes.

[real cedar]

I will wait for a opportunity

😆

I'm going to go make some food 😂

[prisma saddle]

ok got the ok to move my node mount up to the top of the roof. suggestions on the best type of roof silicon / sealant for the holes i’ll be drilling?? ill be in the dog house forever if it leaks.

[real cedar]

Loctite PL is great for roofs

Henry sealant products for roofs can also be found at home Depot for a relatively good price and those are damn near bulletproof

[leaden crow]

Geocel 2300 or 2320 Is my preference for roofing. If it was siding, masonry, etc. I use this stuff:
https://a.co/d/8fLlB06
Lexel I'm sure would be fine too. What all of these have in common is they bond to themselves when dry. I would avoid any silicone based sealant for this reason.

[reef ridge]

I was actually planning on moving my Nebra higher tomorrow also, so thanks!

[prisma saddle]

awesome thanks! @leaden crow @real cedar

[real cedar]

Ahh yeah I forgot to mention PU. That's good shit

[leaden crow]

This is assuming asphalt shingles. If it's a membrane roof, use Dicor lap sealant.

[prisma saddle]

yup asphalt

[real cedar]

So I have this funny recipe called human dog kibble.. you’ll find kale and a lot of the other super greens as well as zucchini, mushrooms, bacon, peppers, onions, garlic, a variety of seasoning spices I fresh grind and I’m about to add the eggs… I had to find a way to enjoy these vegetables more. Never really like the traditional recipes out there.. I slap a steak right next to it and that is my lunch

Did I make anybody hungry 🤣

[reef ridge]

I make something very similar as a filling for stuffed mushrooms, it looks good. 👍

[pseudo kestrel]

mine should be 45 minutes at least between pings, and only then if the hops change O.o

[real cedar]

Yeah, you know. If I'm feeling particularly creative, I'll caramelize the onions and bacon in butter first and Parmesan crust the steak

[reef ridge]

Pop it on the smoker and then sear/parmesan crust the steak, blend the carmalized onions and bacon into a gorgonzola sauce, and you've got a killer date night meal. 👌

[real cedar]

Who says I haven't already done that before?

It's the funniest thing because I'll show the girl the kibble and at first she's like what is that next to the steak.. and she tries it and then dude the face lights up. It's fucking hilarious. And she's like that doesn't look like it would be palatable but it is palatable. It's fucking good 🤣

[leaden crow]

It's difficult to account for channel utilization, etc, but it did perform slightly better as router_late.

C6J traceroute with KR1P as client
Successful traces: 17
Failed traces: 31
35% Success
Outbound: -1.47dB mean SNR from 17 recorded values
Inbound: -.77dB mean SNR from 17 recorded values
Hopped through KR1P 18 times

C6J traceroute with KR1P as router_late
Successful traces: 19
Failed traces: 29
39% Success
Outbound: -5.50dB mean SNR from 19 recorded values
Inbound: 1.30dB mean SNR from 19 recorded values
Hopped through KR1P 25 times

[ivory canyon]

Well, you guys tell me. I'll set it to whatever you think is best.

[slate urchin]

And @prisma saddle I for got I have this I need to place somewhere.

[obsidian storm]

Go hike up that mountain and strap it to a tree. Make sure to seal it with something too just so there's no water leak

That will connect eagle Mountain just great

Try it for a week, and then set it to router_late

[leaden crow]

I would get some type of self-fusing tape and tap up the elbow joint in that antenna. I've used a few different kinds and really like Scotch 130C better than the silicone stuff that Rokland sells.

[real cedar]

It's sadly seems like a wash doesn't it

I would say just leave it as a client. It's still doing a good enough job and you won't have to change its mode when somebody goes and puts up the router on Francis

[leaden crow]

Honestly, I think it's fine to leave it as either. If you really wanted to optimize service in your area, you'd find out if C6C or KR1P better services the area and just make that one the Router_Late, but determining that is going to be ambiguous based on a whole bunch of factors and probably not worth the effort if FPR is replaced soon.

I will say, in my traceroutes (coming from the South). Only 3 times in 48 traceroutes did it hop through C6C vs 25 times it hopped through KR1P

[prisma saddle]

sweet. ya do it!

i d got 2 roof nodes i can toss the new build on when we ready to test. @real cedar @obsidian storm mine and mil.

[real cedar]

Well, as far as I know from mag's latest updates is he's going to try and replace it by this coming weekend

Apparently the rest of his parts get in Wednesday

But also isn't our buddy in Layton going to replace his unit as well soon

[prisma saddle]

ya when ever the fox is delivered. not sure when that was.

[reef ridge]

If either of you don't mind a trade it can definitely be done by next weekend. At the moment I'm at the mercy of the courier though.

[prisma saddle]

ya i don’t mind. i’m in herriman. can meet halfway sometime. or if someone is closer.

[reef ridge]

Cool, I'll DM you for some details!

[ivory canyon]

Cool. Keeping it as router_late until a higher, more capable node can cover the areas mine does, better than mine.

[real cedar]

Good shit
We will let you know when a new router gets popped online. I think it's going to be at the end of the week, but that's barring any unforeseen circumstances or shipping issues

I'm really hoping we don't have Francis Peak struck by lightning for a third time

That will just be a freaking sign to go. Try and get it on Mount Ogden at that point

[real cedar]

@maiden wraith

You know to his credit he has tried so many times to make that place work and he's a champ for putting up with it all

[prisma saddle]

hmm @real cedar what are the cells for apc upc?

[real cedar]

An APC UPS typically uses a lead acid battery at least from back in the day. They might be using lithium now. Let me go look

[real cedar]

Valve regulated lead acid batteries

Just googled it

[prisma saddle]

oh lame. have 3 of those cold pull apart. owell

[prisma saddle]

@leaden crow how’s the nodes up there?

[prisma saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/infinigods-kingofdestiny-king-of-destiny-kod-hercules-gif-5170337174419104306

[ember torrent]

what’s different, lightning management-wise, between FPR2 and FPR3.

[leaden crow]

Up where?
I am mountain biking in Brian Head this weekend, the nodes are non-existant here. 😆

[prisma saddle]

an thought i saw your tracker up at wc1 yesterday :).

[prisma saddle]

oh i guess your prob not ds-tracker lol

[real cedar]

It needs to be on a peak or lesser peak though

[leaden crow]

ds-tracker is mine. I was up there on thurs. https://www.strava.com/activities/15859938781

[reef ridge]

fifth times the charm.

[prisma saddle]

ah ok must have been an old map record.

[leaden crow]

It would be easy to ride the lift up and put a node in a tree here.

[inner jay]

That looks familiar

[reef ridge]

Where is it?

[prisma saddle]

brian head.

[prisma saddle]

grabbed a g2 to mess with. prob won’t be here for a month.

[inner jay]

Overseas shipping?

[prisma saddle]

yup china

[jolly goblet]

Hi all. I'm in SLC and new to Meshtastic. I have three nodes that I am using for testing. I discovered the Intermountain Mesh Freq 51 from the Meshtastic webpage and that lead me here.

[prisma saddle]

Welcome! glad to have you here!

[strong pagoda]

What up yall! I was stalking the thread and figured id say hi as well! Another newbie here who should have his first nodes set up this weekend. a few solar nodes are on the way! along with a handheld or two lmao stoked to learn and add to the community!

[prisma saddle]

Cool, Glad you finally piped up 🙂

[strong pagoda]

figured i gotta now that the shipping is actually close by lol

[prisma saddle]

@strong pagoda @jolly goblet We are happy to help with any questions or hardware config/troubleshooting.. dont be afraid to ask. 🙂

some may even do a drive by your area to help troubleshoot. signal check. etc.. 🙂

[jolly goblet]

What advantage does frequency slot 51 offer that the default 0 (20 actually, as I understand it with the long fast settings)? I have two identical hardware nodes set for long fast with one using the default frequency and the other using 51. The one with the default frequency is finding many more nodes.

If I am understanding correctly, I gather that freq51 is attempting to have a more coordinated effort with strategically placed nodes with appropriate roles. Is that the advantage?

[real cedar]

@reef ridge we need to hurry. It's snowing on our peaks

[obsidian storm]

The biggest thing is that your hop count gets eaten up by freq20

So your messages don't go very far and they aren't reliable

[real cedar]

It's exactly what you're saying. You are correct. It has to do with strategically placing a very minimum number of routers that are extremely coordinated and extremely well placed in order to reduce the hop count over long distances. There's going to be localized pockets that every router serves, but when someone really wants to send a message halfway across the state or to another state, they need a minimum number of hops to do it reliably. If that gets consumed in the valley then they can't really talk across state lines or talk over a very long distance

[obsidian storm]

With a coordinated network, we're currently sending 3hop messages all the way from Provo to Layton

The problem is is that frequency 51 currently doesn't have the adoption that frequency 20 does. That means there's not a lot of clients near where you are to fill up your map as quickly

The other thing is is that we turn down our map reporting to only once or twice a day. That helps lower the utilization of the network and make it better for when we're sending messages

[jolly goblet]

That's impressive!

[obsidian storm]

So it takes 24 to 48 hours to populate the map

The other thing is, if your area doesn't have many frequency 51 users, you may not get messages indoors very well

[jolly goblet]

I haven't found (or perhaps not understood) the map reporting function. I'll look into that.

[obsidian storm]

If you tell us about what city you're in, we can give you the nearest router and help you understand what the network looks like in your space

[jolly goblet]

I only have handheld units (two wio tracker l1s; and a lilygo t-echo). I have some xiao nrf boards and some wio-sx1262 modules to hack together some cheap units. I've ordered a Station G2, because that seems like it is a better option for a fixed unit with an antenna on my roof.

[real cedar]

Something this coordination also lets us do is set up BBS nodes every so often and it's a plan we all have to do.. which allows us to send via the BBS to bypass the seven hop limit. However, to do that without flooding the network, it comes back to the very principle that you need the shortest number of hops between each of the BBS nodes.

[jolly goblet]

I'm near the U of U at just below 5,000 ft. The Nelson Peak Router is far, but should have good line of sight. For the antenna on my roof, would a directional (yagi or parabolic) make any sense? I understand the tradeoffs of directional antennae, but would it make sense to aim for a "backbone" router as my first hop?

[reef ridge]

Friday, everything is ready. I just need the BBS configs and the radio. If I don't get my FemtoFoxes by Wednesday @prisma saddle will give me his to put up. Crunch time, baby. 🔥

[obsidian storm]

That spot near the u of u is one of our areas that we considering a problem area

Having a roof node there would be amazing

Please do not do a directional antenna. Omnidirectional will help everyone else a ton!

There are three possible routers that will serve you

AUR, NPR, and POTM

NPR has been super flaky. We're hoping to replace it with something really amazing on Francis peak

[jolly goblet]

Is AUR the one on Ensign?

[obsidian storm]

Yes

These are the main routers on the network

[jolly goblet]

The last time I was up near Mt. Wire, there was still an old tower (not the microwave reflectors that were taken down years ago). Would that be a good place for a node? I seem to recall it is at about 7,000 ft.

[obsidian storm]

YES

And if you're willing to hike there and you don't have gear, we'll even give you gear to set up there

[prisma saddle]

Farnsworth peak. :).

[inner jay]

MM and MMr should be within squawking range of the u

[prisma saddle]

And once client_base role is out. you can tell the node what the first hop is to be. force who it sends to first.

or hops through.

[obsidian storm]

Yes. There are a few nearby, but with so many tall dense buildings, it still needs a lot of love

[jolly goblet]

I've got some gear on order--a couple more of the seeed wio l1 tracker boards. I've got xiao boards (nrf, esp32, rp2350) and I have a couple of the seeed wio-sx1262s.

I still have a lot to learn. Thanks for the resource here.

[jolly goblet]

Interesting. Thanks. I gather there is a lot of development still occurring. Also, I'm not very familiar with Discord, so still trying to figure out how to reply to people.

[leaden crow]

We've discussed this spot before. First off, it doesn't have especially good LoS. Some people have an Olympus node planned and that would be much better. Second that is a really popular / heavily trafficked hike. I can almost guarantee the node would be defaced or taken. We have to be really careful about where we're placing unauthorized equipment. The Helium bros did us no favors.

[obsidian storm]

I think we can hide it really well

[leaden crow]

On the tower on Big Beacon / Mt. Wire?
I honestly would look at this location first. Based on the state of the equipment. I think it's likely abandoned and would probably serve downtown better.

Someone would need to go there and verify

If it is abandoned / dead, we might even be able to scavange some of the equipment / antennas

[obsidian storm]

Where is this?

[jolly goblet]

I'm looking through old messages (i'm just learning how to use discord) and I see you posted a picture last month of a xiao board with what looks like three 18650 cells, a solar module, and antenna. In the picture, there is also a small pcb that is connecting the mcu, batteries, and panel--I assume a charge controller. Is that correct, and if so, what chip and are you having much success with it?
I've ordered a couple of these solar panels : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09KTKPVJM. Since those panels outputs 5v over a usb connection (and based on one of the reviews) it has some sort of a controller or regulator. Do you have any experience connecting something like this to the xiao USB and how it compares to your approach in the picture. Of course, some proper MPPT charge controller would be best, but I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good. And if I start leaving these around, making some cheap ones to experiment with seems like a good way to start.

[leaden crow]

Give me a minute. I need to dig through history. I found it on Google Earth once, but it was like a year ago.

[obsidian storm]

Looks like perfect router_late territory

[real cedar]

No @obsidian storm it's frequently vandalized

Extremely easily accessed

[real cedar]

Rufio and I thought about it but when we went up there we realized it wouldn't survive

[jolly goblet]

Yeah, Mt. Wire does get a lot of traffic. And the radio and antenna could be make to look rather uninteresting, but not so much a solar panel.

[reef ridge]

Clearly we need to find a source of RTGs so we can have nuclear powered nodes that don't need solar.

[leaden crow]

I have not actually visited this tower in person, but someone way back had more photos of it and the equipment / storage shed for the tower is completely collapsed. I would be surprised if it was working.

[inner jay]

https://tenor.com/view/b2tf-back-to-the-future-gif-24927180

[reef ridge]

Just kidding, but those flexible panels are interesting, I bet we could make something more low profile that could stay hidden a little better.

[leaden crow]

I would stick to the soshine panels. So many of them have been used at this point it's a known quantity.

[reef ridge]

Yes, they're great, trying new things is cool is all. Rolling out a fabric-like panel over any surface like wallpaper is interesting. Well, if it works.

[leaden crow]

He is on the south side of I-80. I think BP is close to getting a Nebra up at the U. I bet that will make a huge difference for downtown.

[real cedar]

That's inherently the issue. If it was just a box it would be nothing. However wires, grounding, solar panel all that . Someone would get very interested. I know i would

[reef ridge]

Already happened 2 FPRs ago. 🫠

[real cedar]

I always approach node placement and design from the perspective of would my curious nerdy ass fuck with that? If the answer is yes I'm going back to the drawing board 😂

There's quite a few of the types out there.. outdoorsy nerds haha. And I can say we all get curious like rufio and I found a hidden transmitter in a fake human designed fake rock building near Bell falls

And they actually legit tried to hide it

😂

[umbral ice]

I'm gonna dm you with config files

[real cedar]

Hey folks, I have been running a long-term experiment on one of my nodes and comparing with two others and I think I figured out what causes the strange behavior with these MPPT charge boards.

The problem is capacitance on the battery rail. If you add too much bulk capacitance directly across the battery input the MPPT can get stuck hunting between CC (constant current) and CV (constant voltage) modes. When that happens it never charges fully. It just oscillates and sits around 30 to 50 percent state of charge without climbing.

Why does this happen? The MPPT assumes it is only looking at the battery. If the load is tied directly to the battery rail the MPPT also sees the device through the cell along with the extra capacitance inductance and resistance. That throws off its algorithm and confuses both charge regulation and the fuel gauge. Instead of smoothly moving into CV mode it keeps backing off and the battery stalls halfway.

The fix is simple. Put your bulk capacitors on the load rail, not on the battery rail. For example if your device runs at 5 V but your battery is 3 V on an Adafruit MPPT, place the capacitors on the regulated 5 V load side. The MPPT then sees the battery in a clean state while your device still gets the smoothing benefits.

If you cannot move the caps off the battery line you can add a small series resistor around 0.22 to 0.47 ohms between the battery and the load. This isolates the MPPT from the added capacitance and helps it regulate normally.

So keep big caps on the load side or isolate with a resistor and you will avoid the false hunting behavior. I have tested this over time and it fixes the charging stall.

I'm going to repost this in the relevant discords

@leaden crow I know that's a long post to read above but you know how we were talking about some of those boards like the waveshare one having issues. I've narrowed it down to wiring and the device characteristics that are hooked up. This is exactly what's responsible. If anyone else is having issues with their charge boards, definitely try doing what I've said above and if it fixes your issue I'm very happy if it doesn't I'm sorry

[quasi surge]

mt. wire would be awesome and help me out too 😄

[real cedar]

Guys don't do Mount wire. We're about one week to 2 weeks away from doing a hike all the way up Mount Olympus

[quasi surge]

could always run something there until olympus happens

[real cedar]

There will be a router there. Hang tight

[quasi surge]

ah, didn't realize the plan was to get this done soon 😛

olympus is a bitch of a hike

[real cedar]

Yeah I just had to 3D print the mounts for him and I have them complete so I'm going to take them to him. He's going to build a device and we're going to put the rak up there

We're still trying to identify the appropriate tree or cliffside to actually do it on so that it doesn't get messed with and doesn't attract attention on such a high popularity peak

I think I might have to do a scouting run but not while it's raining and thundering

[obsidian storm]

Can you write this up and put it on the website?

Maybe with a picture for the RAK what that looks like

[real cedar]

Yeah I can at some point. I did want to do that. I'm just bogged down with a lot of school work right now

At the very least someone can take my text and refine it for the website and put it in there and I will edit it later if you want to get it up quickly

[obsidian storm]

Sure. I'll do that. Just give me a picture

[leaden crow]

I don't know how high you plan on putting that on Olympus. Last year I scouted for a lower node I didn't end up placing (I put it somewhere else over the winter). This is about 0.75 miles up the trail.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/DAU8hDMEdokdTe8w5

[real cedar]

As high as I can possibly get it where there is still a steep enough cliffside with brush

I've taken a look at it from the ground level with binoculars. There's definitely some cliffs you could drive the node into

And there's a couple trees with at least a sizeable trunk that you could go put them in as well

Like at the end of the day it's definitely not going to be a perfect placement but it should do the job

Next time I'm down there I'll take a look with binoculars and maybe just take a picture of the rough area where I think I might put one and Post it here

[real cedar]

How about I give you a schematic diagram instead?

I don't think the picture is going to help people as much

I think in actual drawing of what I mean would be way more helpful

Because then I can make multiple examples too like capacitors on the load rail or series resistors in between the battery and the rak for example

You really don't want to post a picture of how ugly these nodes are. These are very experimental. I don't even feel comfortable posting the picture 🤣 for the level of jank that has occurred

Actually come to think of it. The drawing would be an even better idea because I can plop an actual image of the device in

I'll see if I can work on it after Wednesday

For now I've got to get a project done

[jolly goblet]

I'm thinking out loud here. Would putting a small label or sign that says exactly what it is help? For example" "This is a Meshtastic node that enables text communications by radio using small, inexpensive, open-source devices. To learn more and to participate in the network, see: ...."

[real cedar]

I've thought about doing that, but one of my issues with doing that is it's a double-edged sword. I'm sure you can see how. I would love to actually advertise frequency 51 on there but one of the problems with doing that is we aren't really getting permission to put this on Mount Olympus and suddenly that puts our website out there and makes it very easy to trace where this device came from and also find all the rest of ours 😂

What I can do is paint it the color of bark and make it blend as well as I can

I'm sure if it's out of side out of mind and also colored like the thing it's attached to. Most people wouldn't give it much notice

That fucking solar panel though is going to stick out like a sore eye

[jolly goblet]

Yeah, I hear you on the double-edge sword issue. A bad actor that is simply bend on destroying something wouldn't care.

And anonymity of source or plausible deniability seems important too.

[inner jay]

The mesh is essentially Rebel Radio

[reef ridge]

What do we think of the setup? Fox will go in the empty spot.

[pseudo kestrel]

This is what I have on my map from ~4 days of listening

AUR being a huge help as usual ❤️

[inner jay]

Pretty close to mine

[pseudo kestrel]

https://meshmap.astragroup.info
U: freq51
P: freq51

🙂

[inner jay]

Yep I have that one bookmarked

[prisma saddle]

hmm who is the one up alpine?

[pseudo kestrel]

2f2e is the closest on my map

Also, I've never gotten a message back from Big Beautiful Bulletin Board 💔

[inner jay]

I've gotten some DM replies

Mostly pongs to my pings

[inner jay]

Dunno, the name is a little person

Callsign 0x0003 Labeled as TAK

I also have a node called PZZA called Tavern Cut that came over MQTT I don't have a location for

[obsidian storm]

came over MQTT

what do you mean?

[inner jay]

Just said Node Heard over MQTT

[obsidian storm]

we shouldn't be doing MQTT downlink on freq51 so that's weird.

MQTT is 1 hop so I haven't seen it.

[obsidian storm]

did it say what node sent it?

[inner jay]

Oops. Had downlink enabled somehow.

[inner jay]

No, but it's 5 hops away

[obsidian storm]

sure, but 4 of those are over mqtt

so one of your direct links is running mqtt downlink

[inner jay]

I found it and disabled it

[obsidian storm]

is it one of your devices?

[inner jay]

And dammit that throws off my node count

[obsidian storm]

the recieving one isn't it.

[inner jay]

I checked all 3 of mine and one I hadn't used in a while had downlink enabled

So that'll help that

[obsidian storm]

did that device have internet?

[inner jay]

Yup

[obsidian storm]

yeah, that was probably it then 🙂

[inner jay]

Oof, i hid MQTT nodes and my count dropped by 42 lol

Time to prune the DB

[obsidian storm]

For context, my roof node heard 93 nodes over the last 24 hours.

[prisma saddle]

these all show mqtt to me. but i don’t have it enabled. so prob they do.

[obsidian storm]

let's see @quasi surge Tell us about DropShip

Do you have MQTT uplink and/or downlink enabled?

[real cedar]

AUR is now longfast primary again

[real cedar]

Have you moderated it's default trace route spamming?

[real cedar]

How's it all wired together? I'm trying to figure that out but some wires are hidden

Also is that a fancy little surge protector down there? Because I prove where did you buy that?

[manic fractal]

That’s that ol’ can do spirit.

[reef ridge]

Here it is a little more organized and buttoned down. Yeah, it's a surge protector for the solar panel cable. It's wired in a 3s3p configuration with a BMS.

[inner jay]

I have now. Ninja set me straight

[reef ridge]

It's now occurring to me that I'm not going to be able to get battery telemetry without another voltage sensor. 🤔

[prisma saddle]

he’s good at that 🙂

[real cedar]

Thank you, that app is so janky and it just loves to spam the network

[real cedar]

Get an INA3221 sensor with great and lots of reviews

Tie it in

Set the ina override i2c address to that chip

Voila

If you use those properly and you get one of the good ones, you'll be able to monitor not only current flow but also voltage flow and you'll be able to read that for every stage along the line such as solar, your 12 volt rail, and your battery

The thing is though I like to print a 3D case for those and solder on some terminals so that I can access those and I like to put a layer of copper foil on the inside, not where it would short anything.. and ground it so it provides some emi shielding because those chips are particularly vulnerable to emi and lightning

[inner jay]

I'm upgrading CHOP to a RAK setup next week so it'll be rebuilding again, at a proper speed this time lol

[real cedar]

The downside is that thing if it blows up will shut down your entire node

😭

Ask me how I know

[obsidian storm]

don't blow up your ina3221

it's not that hard @real cedar 😛

[reef ridge]

Looking up tutorials on how to do all that. I'll do my best to not blow it up. 😭

[inner jay]

https://tenor.com/view/madagscar-penguins-kaboom-gif-9833865

[prisma saddle]

💨

🔥

💣

[inner jay]

https://tenor.com/view/itcrowd-gif-21460625

[real cedar]

MIND THE CURRENT LIMIT

Some are limited to low currents

[quasi surge]

uplink, no downlink

[real cedar]

Find one that supports 120% of your max current

[reef ridge]

I'm just trying to find one with reviews that can be delivered before my deadline.

[real cedar]

It's not a necessity

Only do so if convenient

[obsidian storm]

perfect. @prisma saddle I'm not sure why it says MQTT, but it's not downlink so it's good

[prisma saddle]

cool beans. 🫘

[real cedar]

@reef ridge
https://www.adafruit.com/product/6062

Probably won't arrive in time but Adafruit version is way more robust

Literally addressable with ease in Linux on the i2c bus

[reef ridge]

Good for the next one at least.

[prisma saddle]

delivery today? or should i package this up for you?

[real cedar]

So the only thing that sucks about the lack of ability to monitor the batteries is we won't know if a node is dead or just drained

I have some crappier ina3221 boards if you want one

[reef ridge]

UPS says they're delivering today, I'll see if they're lying again when I get home.

[reef ridge]

I know, I wish I thought about it sooner. 🫠 I'd take one of those boards if you'd like to pass one off.

[strong pagoda]

I messaged in yesterday. Set up last night for the first time and now waiting for some larger nodes to throw up high on my property!

After a night, looks like I found over 80 nodes in the area. DAMN.

Thanks for the Freq51 guide yall 👍😎

[prisma saddle]

cool any problems with the guide? anything that can be changed to make it easier? or missinfo? what node is yours?

[strong pagoda]

Honestly the guide was what I referred to more than any other resource when actually setting up my device. I read quite a bit and watched a few videos before finding it. It helped to connect all the dots in my head, and having an easy settings guide gave me a good start and leaping point to start reasarching what they all meant without getting overwhelmed

I think it all worked too as i sent out a test message on LongFast and it says its acknowledged

[prisma saddle]

very good to hear. that is what we are trying to do. one stop guide to get setup and eventually advanced configs and builds. anything that was missing from it or that you had to lookup elsewhere?

And you see my reply back just now?

im guessing a5b0 is yours

[strong pagoda]

outside of specific definitions just to understand more i dont think so! I have a use case for involving mqtt and wifi as well, so ive done some research there outside the guide, but its still a bit over my head and im assuming is why you didnt include it in the begginers guide outside of configurations and making sure people dont have downlink on

[prisma saddle]

ah yup. many here know how all that works and we will eventually have it added to the guide.

[strong pagoda]

And no i didnt see anything back. CRN1 is me, So maybe i spoke to soon lol

[prisma saddle]

so no roof node yet though? working on it i saw.

[strong pagoda]

Not yet, I have solar nodes coming on Monday for a huge tree in my back yard and the roof of my business. I also grabbed a better handheld, but as of now im running a seed tracker.

[jolly goblet]

I'm looking at solar charge controllers to use with xiao nRF52840s . To which Adafruit product are you referring?

I've used and liked Adafruit boards in the past. I see a few different ones based on the TI bq25185 (one with a boost converter [5v], one with a buck [3.3], and one without either)--which from the datasheet looks like it would fit the bill. I see Adafruit has few others based on different ICs. Is there one you recommend? What about CN3791-based boards?

Thanks for your help!

[real cedar]

I can probably do so after Wednesday. If you end up at the hacker space on Thursday that would be an ideal spot to do a trade-off

I have to be in downtown Salt Lake anyways on Thursdays due to the leading the 999 around

🤣

[real cedar]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. It's those 25185s.. they're really good but that's exactly the kind of issue they will face if you do what I'm talking about above which is miswire them.

I'm not a big fan of the cn3791s. I think they're cheap and I think they're efficient but they're also not reliable. You can't guarantee that every one of their build qualities is good like you can with adafruit. And if you're going to use that on something remote, I would just take the extra safety of the adafruit for a couple extra dollars

For 12 volt packs, I do recommend the pwm renogy 10A solar charge controller

It's configurable and a very stable device across a very large temperature band

[strong pagoda]

I was able to send and receive messages from a heltec v3 i had my gf test at home while i was at work. Sending was almost instant, but receiving took a bit so im assuming week reception or something on my seed?

on my private channel that is

[prisma saddle]

ah sweet. ok. ya let’s revisit on monday and help get the solar node up. height is your friend. los to router is best.

[strong pagoda]

Sounds like a plan. Thank you! I was surprised by what i saw just over night. Probably got my hopes up when i already had real expectations hahaha

[prisma saddle]

the T1000e has good rx but poor tx. so a roof node is needed. or suggested.

[strong pagoda]

Makes sense for its use case.

[real cedar]

Sometimes it can be instant. Other times it can take a while. There's no real defined period of time and which you can reasonably expect a message to send

[real cedar]

5V adafruits are ideal. The reason is most devices are setup to take 5V due to USB and higher voltage is always more efficient

[prisma saddle]

@strong pagoda i see your node

just popped up

[inner jay]

I saw the test earlier

[strong pagoda]

just recived a message back from sandy i saw, and my gf saw one from the U. So were solid, just have to get the new nodes set up now! Hell yeah, thank you all!

[jolly goblet]

Thank you!

I'm thinking about the version without a boost or buck converter (it's less expensive). It looks like the load output is regulated to a max of 4.5v. I'm thinking I can attach the load pin to the Xiao's battery pins, which according to the Xiao schematic is the output for the Xiao's bq25100 battery charger. This will put a lower load on the Xiao's linear LDO (maybe a SGMICRO SGM2040) regulator (than if I used the 5v boost converter version to 5Vin on the Xiao), though the loss is probably rather trivial in the whole scheme of things. Do you know if this is how others have been connecting an external charger to the Xiao nRF?

I'll probably try one set up not even using an external battery charger, but rather just use the Xiao's 100 mA charger with a panel that has a 5v regulated output. I don't know that it will be sufficient (especially in the winter), but worth a try. And a lower part count and cost is always a plus.

[inner jay]

Im CHOP/B52/B53

[prisma saddle]

im all the ace ones.

FYI for those that have been documented, node owners/etc #1197577977781821541 message

[strong pagoda]

As of now Ill be running as CRN. Awesome.

[prisma saddle]

reach out to @obsidian storm to get added to that under your nodes.

[strong pagoda]

will do. I noticed theres a few people associated with hackerspace and they have a radio meetup tonight. Do yall ever attend? Havent been but was thinking of stopping by at some point

[prisma saddle]

I have not yet. does not align with my sched/etc.. but want to eventually.

[inner jay]

FFR once my 2 RAKs are setup they'll be TANO and EZRA

[strong pagoda]

someones excited for season 2 (;

[inner jay]

https://tenor.com/view/this-is-who-ive-always-been-anthony-padilla-i-have-always-been-like-this-this-has-always-been-who-i-am-ive-always-been-this-way-gif-26874092

Chopper base is a rebels reference lol

And B52 is my cosplay club number

[prisma saddle]

Tossed up a glossary on the site, just working to get it merged in

[strong pagoda]

I thought chopper might be a reference when i saw it pop up last night, im glad i was right lol

[inner jay]

Everyone's favorite war criminal lol

Now I have a project idea to build a chopper droid housing for my heltek lol

[strong pagoda]

a man and his 3d printer can make any dream come true lol

[prisma saddle]

what is your nodebroadcast for chopper set at?

interesting tool. i never knew about this https://site.meshtastic.org/ @real cedar @obsidian storm you?

[leaden crow]

I have not gone to the radio night. I think that's usually HAMs. The regular thurs. project nights often some people from here are at the hackerspace. They've had a few meshtastic events in the past that had good turnout, but it's been quite a while.

[real cedar]

That plan sounds fine. Should work. Remember to resistor isolate the load or radio if connecting to a splice off your battery wires.

I'm not actually sure how people wire their Xiao devices.

[obsidian storm]

I'll be there on Thursday this week

[prisma saddle]

ok just posted this. let me know if anything is incorrect or needs to be added. https://freq51.net/glossary

thanks @obsidian storm

[inner jay]

I'll check when I get back in range but I think it's the one in the docs

[real cedar]

@obsidian storm do you me and dagron want to collectively run another mesh night

I try to do it alone but I end up not advertising early enough

[obsidian storm]

Yes

[prisma saddle]

if it’s not this week or next week. i’d love to come. lol.

have to start halloween decor. takes a lot of time.

[real cedar]

we can decide on a good time for a lot of people and give us ample time to advertise. IDK how much budget we have for buying people devices but to be frank we could also just say BYOD

[prisma saddle]

right. agree.

[real cedar]

After the fix it looks like Polaris has gotten quite the recharge 🤣 in just today's sunlight while at work. (This one is my car node)

It's a huge pack. 4x 21700 5000 mah each

Adafruit mppt go brrrrr

[prisma saddle]

i need to move my car one in the sun. it’s slowly going dead.

[real cedar]

The nice thing about the huge pack is that running tests or very long periods of shade are survivable in the car.

You want a picture of the jank

😆

Turns out I had the perfect solar panel mount and angle 🤣😭

It works out well because my head rests obstruct the area where the panel is. So it doesn't bother my driving. The mounting putty holds in extreme heat so lol it's all worked out nicely. The batteries haven't exploded when it's 160 F in the car

Nor have they seemed to suffer any degradation

My parking space at work is north facing so I always get a south faced solar panel for the entire day

Same at my apartment

This is an extra nice demonstration of the ability of the adafruit to pull as much power from the soshine as it can and charge up a deeply discharged pack though. I'm starting to worry a lot less about using the soshines on mtn nodes

[leaden crow]

Who organized the last build at the space? People paid for the Heltec kits. Not sure how popular it would be, but for round 2 maybe we could do roof node kits?

[real cedar]

That was limitless but he winged it a bit. No shade but we should do more planning

[real cedar]

Gonna be honest though I despise the heltecs. I want people's experience to actually be good. I would highly prefer the xiaos or if we have to go heltecs .. the t116 .. I wish there was an ultra cheap mini rak

Those Xiao nodes are beautifully tiny and YET THEY STILL have ESD protection and reverse pol protection. Come on heltec

[leaden crow]

Oh, I totally agree. If we did the budget roof node it would be Xiao nrf

Putting all that stuff together is probably a bad idea. I wonder if we could get group buy pricing on these?
https://www.seeedstudio.com/SenseCAP-Solar-Node-P1-for-Meshtastic-LoRa-p-6425.html

[real cedar]

This is a kimb3r question.

The space doesn't have an infinite budget

They would be very budget conscious here. What I would suggest is that people buy it, but we sadly don't operate at a discount. I don't think we can afford giving it a discounted price but definitely ask her.

I'm not an officer so I don't control the budget

[obsidian storm]

I don't think we want to spend Hackerspace money.

But we could still do a group buy and make it happen

I've organized plenty of those in the past. I don't mind doing it

[prisma saddle]

your a great bagger. 🙂

[reef ridge]

Man, soldering these is going to be a pain in the ass. I'm suddenly not confident in my soldering skills again. 😂

[prisma saddle]

lol looks good. so got the board i guess. ?

[reef ridge]

Yessir, they were on my porch when I got home surprisingly.

[prisma saddle]

you got this!

[obsidian storm]

If you want, we can do it together on Thursday

[real cedar]

That is a lot of money. We need a significantly large group to do it to be honest.

Alternatively, I think what we could do is really beef up our documentation on all of these types of nodes from the ready to buy options to what you can build and then we can advertise what the event. Hey this is where you would go and buy it. Bring your own device. And then maybe we can do a small group buy for those that can't afford it

That would be my best suggestion and the best use of any money used

[reef ridge]

That'd be cool, but seems are schedules don't align. You show up when it's time for me to go.

[prisma saddle]

i could advert to a few different groups too. might be able to get some from there.

tooele ham group and my diy lighting group of all those in utah. lots of them.

just an option.

[obsidian storm]

If you pick a specific time, I'll try to be there at that time

[reef ridge]

Around 5:30 would work for me. I get off work at 4:30 and it's a little over an hour for the trip there.

[obsidian storm]

Deal. I can try to be there by 5:45. 5:30 if traffic is really good somehow

[reef ridge]

Great! I'll hold off for now then. I didn't care if I messed up my last project, but I care a lot about this one. 😅

[inner jay]

Whats so bad about the helteks? My 3 have worked just fine

[reef ridge]

@pseudo kestrel Do you want yours soldered or would you prefer to do it yourself?

[real cedar]

The early ones were worse, but even the new ones lack ESD protection and reverse polarity protection. The new raks have both. The xiaos have both (I think).. it's these little sub 10 cent safeties that I don't appreciate seeing cheaper out on

If this were expensive to do I wouldn't blame them at all but it's not. They literally cheaped out on something that's not even something to cheap out on

How hard is a bunch of TVS diodes on the USB and power ports

[inner jay]

Does it need rpp with the hard point for the power?

I understand the need for esd pro

[pseudo kestrel]

O.o

It'd be fun to solder

[reef ridge]

Sounds good! I'll leave it alone for ya.

[real cedar]

If a dumb thing can happen.. it will happen

[haughty moon]

For those guys running Meshsense, are you doing it over ip/ethernet?

[inner jay]

Running mine over wifi

[vital hemlock]

Be careful with meshsense auto trace routes. Some folks have them set pretty frequently. I know the graph looks cool, and that’s why we are running meshview.

[real cedar]

Thank you @broken turret for your service to our mesh

[obsidian storm]

YESSSSS

CLIENT_BASE is going to be great.

[prisma saddle]

muahahah!!! nice@

[obsidian storm]

thank you @dense scroll !

This is great.

[acoustic mason]

I was just going to mention this. Nice to have the CLIENT_BASE option now.

[prisma saddle]

hmm wonder how well npr will work if i set it to use that... hmm

[acoustic mason]

From reading, it looks like it doesn't help build the mesh for others than your favorites. Did I read that right? As I understand it, it only rebroadcasts messages late for specific node devices.

How the CLIENT_BASE role works

• Prioritized relay: An outdoor or stationary device is set to CLIENT_BASE. It is "aware" of designated personal devices, or "watched nodes," operating in the standard CLIENT or CLIENT_MUTE roles.
• Acknowledgment check: When the CLIENT_BASE node hears a message from one of its watched nodes, it listens for an acknowledgment from the recipient.
• Forced rebroadcast: If the CLIENT_BASE node does not receive an acknowledgment within a specific time, it will automatically rebroadcast the message at its full power, functioning similarly to a ROUTER_LATE role.

Key benefits and uses

• Improves packet delivery: Messages from a low-power, weak, or indoor device are reliably picked up and sent out by the powerful CLIENT_BASE node, overcoming obstacles that would otherwise block the signal.
• Extends range: By using a strategically placed CLIENT_BASE device—such as one in an attic or on a rooftop—the practical range for indoor or mobile devices is significantly extended.
• Enhances reliability for personal devices: This role is ideal for ensuring messages from a personal handheld device reach their destination, especially in areas with spotty coverage.

Comparison with other Meshtastic roles

• Client: The standard CLIENT role will repeat messages but does so intelligently with a delay to avoid network congestion. CLIENT_BASE adds a more active, targeted relay function for specific nodes.
• Client Mute: This role does not repeat messages at all. In a CLIENT_BASE setup, personal devices can use CLIENT_MUTE to reduce airtime use while still benefiting from the powerful base station.
• Router/Repeater: The ROUTER and REPEATER roles are for infrastructure nodes that always rebroadcast all messages to extend the network for everyone. CLIENT_BASE is more targeted, focusing on ensuring reliable delivery for specific associated devices.

[obsidian storm]

Proposal: CLIENT_BASE mode (for attic/roof nodes)
I propose a new CLIENT_BASE mode, to be suggested for possible use on attic/roof nodes, with the following behavior:

1. Acts as ROUTER (early, guaranteed rebroadcast) for any packets where either p->from OR p->to are an is_favorite node.

2. Acts as CLIENT otherwise.

(Seriously, that's it.)

[acoustic mason]

OK, that makes it look better.

[obsidian storm]

https://github.com/meshtastic/firmware/issues/7863

[acoustic mason]

Thanks for the link.

@obsidian storm BTW, how it the testing going with MEC UV North Base?

[obsidian storm]

I tested to foxroof:

and it didn't help or hurt.

so it might hurt by increasing the utilization.

[acoustic mason]

I can set it to whatever mode will help the mesh most effectively. Just let me know.

[obsidian storm]

I think client_base is probably your best method

[acoustic mason]

OK. Once I have time to update the firmware, I'll switch it. Might be a day or two.

[prisma saddle]

Ok so i need to update the docs for client_base then. do we want all roof nodes to use that.. eventually ? @obsidian storm or is this going to be more for "strategically placed" clients that are not routers/router late

or prob wait till that firmware is more mainstream.

since not all will have that yet

[obsidian storm]

client should always be default.

But we can explain when/how to use client_base

within our mesh.

a good usecase is if you have a roof node and you have multiple clients inside that have issues getting message outside of the building, but the roof node hears it consistently.

a single indoor client inside doesn't need client_base

but once you get 2+ it starts helping out.

[prisma saddle]

OK i understood it wrong then.. so its not me setting my roof node as this, and then fav npr or potm and then everything i send out routes through those...

[obsidian storm]

that's right, just fave the stuff you want to ensure gets sent to the whole mesh.

the source, not the intermediate hops.

[prisma saddle]

ahh ok

[obsidian storm]

so don't fave NPR unless you feel like your indoor nodes aren't seeing the location packets coming from npr

[real cedar]

Should I use the summoning words for our buddy

🤣😭

Jk

[prisma saddle]

Messing with a new meshview like app. kinda cool thus far. i think it gives more info or at least is laid out better to understand

need to get a full dump of the mesh so will be a while still as my mqtt hears them all but ya.. kinda cool thus far

[obsidian storm]

https://github.com/luisriverag/meshstastic-malla

looks cool!

[prisma saddle]

yup

i like it so far a lot..

i think it gives better info on how well nodes are talking to each other.etc.

mega more info on each node.

interesting.. fully AI developed lol

[obsidian storm]

it's very clearly vibecoded

https://malla.freq51.net/

un: slcmesh
pw: slcmesh

^ Enjoy.

[prisma saddle]

oh man you already have it up.. i was doing that ha ha. cool

dont forget to set the default key..

in the config

or this is all we will see

[obsidian storm]

anything beyond this?

[prisma saddle]

nope thats it

[obsidian storm]

cool. it just needs to populate packets.

[prisma saddle]

i was getting this until i set that. so should be good if its set then

cool beans. very cool troubleshooting/info tooll i think. more than the others.

thus far

[real cedar]

See @umbral ice even the pros get vaporized from time to time
https://www.accuweather.com/en/severe-weather/strong-lightning-strike-destroys-new-zealand-radar/1819348

Though I'm not sure your Zeus meme is quite enough to describe the spectacular levels of destruction 😜

Big oooof

This is what I deal with mitigating professionally for some years. There is a special art to it

The idea is to lower the impedance in the air around the radome but increase the impedance exponentially as you approach the skin of the radome. That's as far as I'm going without a whiteboard 🤣

[prisma saddle]

just create a forcefield that lets RF get out, but nothing in.. star trek can do it.. lol

https://tenor.com/view/shields-up-red-alert-gif-9795654

now thats sexy.. @obsidian storm

[leaden crow]

How does everyone feel about breaking LF51 for a few days so we can test different presets? This is what I'm thinking; we don't try to switch everything first, this is just a small initial test. We switch to LF52, MS51, MF51 and then SF51 each for 24 hours. Even if we only get 1/4 to 1/2 of the current nodes on LF51, it should give us some useful data. If this is agreeable, we start tomorrow morning with LongFast 52 for a baseline.

[real cedar]

Look all I gotta say is the sun releases energy in yottajoules per second and lightning releases in gigajoules per second. Therefore Zeus... Is a beta

Thank you for your attention in this matter

[real cedar]

If you want try aur POTM and see if we can talk we can try that

It will take down most people's network for a bit

But you know they will be fine

They got schizoPR (NPR) as a fail over for that time

[leaden crow]

You willing to hike to AUR if you can't admin it remotely once switched to a different preset?
Maybe I read that wrong? I saw AUR POTM

[real cedar]

Yeah that's Really easy

I bike to it in 20-30 mins

Done it loads of times haha

And I will be able to remote admin it. Ill point a freaking Yagi at it 🤣. Its feeble attempts to avoid my line of sight will be met with unstoppable RF power

[leaden crow]

Are traces between POTM and AUR usually direct right now? Not that they have to be for this test. Just curious.

[real cedar]

They absolutely are when it doesn't accidentally take a well placed client in the trace. When I was up there it was about 75/25 to OLD potm

They can see each other free of any obstruction. AUR is taller than all the buildings

[obsidian storm]

I'm confused by the timeline

where does LF52 come in?

[prisma saddle]

same. like is it the control ? or ?

[leaden crow]

LF52 switch at ~8AM tomorrow morning. (24 hours of testing)
MS51 switch at ~8AM the following day (09/26)
MF51 switch at ~8AM (09/27)
SF51 switch at ~8AM (09/28)
Switch back to LF51 at ~8AM (09/29)

[leaden crow]

Correct.
I want a baseline from LongFast because we will presumably be testing with a smaller mesh. We will probably get some nodes join the test that will have no connectivity at all. It's more helpful to learn that at step 1 with the same broadcast strength as LF51. Otherwise they might assume they lost connectivity because of less link budget.

[inner jay]

I think I'm following. We talking about switching frequencies?

[prisma saddle]

temp, then back to 51, but diff modem preset. medium slow / fast / short fast.

test distances with higher bandwidth

[inner jay]

I can prob switch chop to lf52 tomorrow morning if you want a mid valley node

Thats LongFast slot 52 right?

[leaden crow]

Correct, just to not step on the toes of LF51 for our baseline

[prisma saddle]

ok are there certain nodes you want moved over? or dont want moved. etc ?

[leaden crow]

None excluded. I would encourage everyone to test. The larger the test, the more accurate it will be for when we make the switch.
For example if we determine MF51 is good, but only a dozen 1 watt nodes tested.. It could be the loss in link budget for other people further out or with less transmitter power, it's completely unusable for them.

Honestly, just testing AUR > POTM will be amazing. If we could draw a line in the sand where below certain link budget they don't talk anymore.
For anyone not aware, this is the link budget for each preset:
https://meshtastic.org/docs/overview/radio-settings/#presets
The goal is to maximize data-rate, so we want the lowest link budget that still works well.

[real cedar]

I'm game when are we starting

[leaden crow]

8AM tomorrow. Should give us time for people to read Discord.

I will send some messages tonight and tomorrow on LongFast51 public channel

[real cedar]

That works. Uhmm I'll try to add my strongest xmitters to AURs RA list

So if something goes wrong I have a chance with multiple devices to ra

Give me some time on that I might not be able to do it right in the morning

But once I'm in town for the afternoon (999) I'll be close enough not to worry

[pseudo kestrel]

It'd be fun to try with my nodes I think

[obsidian storm]

Include a date and time to switch back. And I'm game

The next thing we'll want to do is figure out how to test

Like what tests are we going to run during these times?

And who is going to do the testing?

[leaden crow]

I plan on using my traceroute script.
Depending on how may nodes we get in the test. I'll have it run 5-10 traceroutes in an hour to one node, then switch to a different target.
It records the success/failures and the SNR on the hops. I'll do that same test to the same nodes on each preset.

Hopefully some other people will do their own testing. It's pretty easy to do a non-scripted version of traceroute testing, just manually record results. At the most basic level, validating messages delivered..

[leaden crow]

#1197577977781821541 message

[prisma saddle]

how do you suggest best testing. change fslot and then nodedb reset?

[leaden crow]

Yeah, then pick a node you've historically had good connectivity and run some traceroutes.

[prisma saddle]

this new malla ui will give some good info too.

outputs it better for this kind of testing imo

[leaden crow]

You can use my mtrl.sh script. it's pretty simple. I'm sure it would be trivial to rewrite in Python, Powershell, etc.
https://github.com/dagronslayer/meshtastic-bash-scripts

[real cedar]

@leaden crow
I have Polaris (car node) in AURs approved keys. It has a solid antenna. I'm ready for tomorrow morning

I'll log traceroute data as well.

Provide an excel or something

I will also convert over C6C Jovialis and Umbriel for the experiment so my local cluster (HAH) has good connectivity

We're going to do medium fast first right?

Which days will we plan to test short slow and short fast?

Converting the "long line" 😆 C6C--AUR--POTM--LAKE

[prisma saddle]

i think tomorrow was lf52.

then next day was ms51. #1197577977781821541 message

[real cedar]

First things first. We testers should all identify which routers we have direct LOS and traceroutes to ourselves

[real cedar]

Why LF52

Did we mean MF52

[prisma saddle]

#1197577977781821541 message

[real cedar]

Cuz when you go to MF the channels change in numbering

Ahhh

So @leaden crow sorry to ping you again.. one more thing I'd like to add is that we need to realize that these are going to be worst case numbers. Given we're not switching a lot of people over and we're mainly switching our routers and it's just us people testing.. the trace root numbers are not going to be nearly as reliable with far less nodes. And that's okay in my opinion. We should take whatever the highest speed mode gets us somewhat reliably working. I'm sure you've thought about this.. what's your baseline your aiming for?

We will also need to take into account that at least one of our links is going to be over 100 mi when fpr goes up 😆

[prisma saddle]

and that is going to be a main backbone imo. prob have to test again. ? or just know it will be the bomb!

[leaden crow]

Exactly this, it will be worst case numbers. I want to see a baseline that is worst case with the link budget of Long Fast. The other nice thing doing a smaller scale test. If MF works out well in this test, it's more of a sure thing when we ask everyone to switch.

[real cedar]

I'm very optimistic right now. I think short fast is going to work. I really do. I've ran all the calculations. I triple checked my numbers. I've done simulations in just about every tool. We have the link budget for at least 120 mi of lora communication with shortfast. I put it in my tool at work so I could do rain fading and what happens when it's snow and heavy thunderstorms pass over and all of the scattering and even then it only reduces it by a couple dB. I guess that's the advantage of 915

The only thing I could see killing us is the mismatch between the gains of the antennas. However, the nice thing is almost all of the devices we're talking about converting all have a 5db antenna and most of them are raks

So we should have very low variability except for Lake Mountain which is one Watt

What I will be eagerly trying to test is on MF and SF if I can get C6C to communicate directly with Lake Mountain like it does right now

If that's the case, I don't think we have any worry

By the way, just to provide a hard number when I did a worst case scenario a short fast with thunderstorms along the entirety of the path between fpr and Harrison. There was still remaining a 19 DB margin on the link budget. So in theory, as long as they have good line of sight and they're both filtered and both 1 watt LOL.. short fast should work on that link reliably. Now the most bulletproof you're right is going to be medium fast. That is going to be my guess. I'm still pretty gung-ho about short fast. I think it would be dope. I don't think we can do short turbo. That's way too spicy

If neither are 1 watt on that link it's much more precarious at about 9-11 dB link margin. Still doable but risks losing the link now and then

I'm way too excited to see how our guesses pan out to reality

@white field haven't seen owl on Mary's nipple in a long time. Did she die?

[prisma saddle]

Ya this is pretty cool. thats a long connection...

@real cedar Aur not in there yet. but will be. once tests are done ha ha

[manic fractal]

Has anyone been able to try it yet? I flashed a node with 2.7.10 but I can’t see Client_Base in the drop down menu on iOS.

[prisma saddle]

its only in android so far. IOS not updated to it yet

[obsidian storm]

You can probably also do it via CLI on a computer

[real cedar]

I've also been very set and forget about AUR. It's got 2.6.4 still cuz if it ain't broke don't fix it

It has 1 job

😆

Be a router late and do a good job at it

[prisma saddle]

and it is! 🙂

[prisma saddle]

I just put this up today... in time lol

really cool info. mind blowing how it all works

and the distances.. im sure Farnsworth will be like going to the moon. lol

in awesomeness.

[real cedar]

AUR came out of a need between my best bud rufio and I wanting to directly speak reliably and we basically said F relying on NPR. There's ensign and we got BIKES! 😂

[prisma saddle]

well you got it right it seems

[real cedar]

It took much sneaking around techs for the first time. Also a massive pole in between two gigantic towers. They will be the sacrificial lambs 😂

[manic fractal]

Gotcha, thanks. Probably documented somewhere and I didn’t pay attention.

[prisma saddle]

HMm not sure. just from what ive read elsewhere.. android beta.. and like bash said, cli

[manic fractal]

Oh, good idea. I should check that.

[prisma saddle]

too new for anything else.

[broken turret]

Not sure what you're referring to there? None of the changes in that alpha are mine.

[prisma saddle]

this is nice, malla wont take years to gather all the info. right when node fslot changes it finds them 🙂

[prisma saddle]

We still waiting on potm and AUR im guessing ?

[obsidian storm]

Nope. They're both over

And they're working great

[prisma saddle]

awesome

[obsidian storm]

They just don't send their node info or position very often. They'll still transmit messages and work just great.

[prisma saddle]

right yup cool

i was late to the party on them prob

[real cedar]

Early bird got the worm. I did that early but lost comms because I reset the nodeDB

Dumb move 😑

[real cedar]

Didn't you write client base?

Or am I misremembering

I know you got the docs written for sure

[obsidian storm]

That was compumike

[real cedar]

OH

my bad

I was very sleep deprived yesterday

Was operating on 2 hrs

Holy shit @obsidian storm Polaris can see lake mountain on its high perch parking spot. I got signal at my company 😆

[obsidian storm]

You got it bro. Lake is op

Farnsworth is going to be so much better

If we can get it

[leaden crow]

First test to bp# is done. I've never got 100% before.

Successful traces: 12
Failed traces: 0
100% Success
Outbound: -13.60dB mean SNR from 12 recorded values
Inbound: -18.10dB mean SNR from 12 recorded values

[prisma saddle]

whats the if part? what we waiting on still? thouht it was a done deal just need to build it?

[obsidian storm]

We have to get permission from the engineers.

[prisma saddle]

oh thought you had that already.. so just waiting ot hear back?

[prisma saddle]

dang nice? from where to where? and how so fast?

[obsidian storm]

We have someone in the company who's working to try and get that permission, but it's not there yet

[prisma saddle]

not 10-15min increm im guessing..

[leaden crow]

From dsr1 > bp#
It was a 1 hour test. trace every 5 min.
Empty network is amazing, all the traces returned super fast. Less than 10 seconds.

[prisma saddle]

I think we are getting other people that are not normally part of the 51 to..

3 new nodes ive never seen

interesting.

no matter. just funny.

[obsidian storm]

I tried to wrap this antenna but the UV destroyed the tape. Anyone know what I did wrong?

That was outside in the sun for about 2 months Max

[leaden crow]

What kind of tape is it (specifically)

[obsidian storm]

https://www.harborfreight.com/10-ft-x-1-in-self-bonding-super-tape-63949.html

[leaden crow]

I really don't trust a lot of the cheap stuff. UV resistance is one area, I think it's worth it to pay for something good.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000V4JRUE?th=1

I have a couple of places that 130C has been out in the sun for ~2 years and it's still fine. I assume it has to be if electricians are using it to insulate high temp 69kV wire.

[prisma saddle]

Dang this is so weird.. my fs20 node appeared on fs52.. even though it says fs 0/20

and got all the messages.. lol

[jolly goblet]

This is my favorite outdoor sealing tape: https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b40068325/ It is very expensive, but works great.

[haughty moon]

I had some weirdness too. I think there’s some bugs when switching connections between nodes

Like there’s residual data

[prisma saddle]

ya i still see it there.. very weird. and can trace it. my main nodes were not on fs20 before.. always been 51. just moved them to 52.. and my fs20 node showed up..

dont get it

yet its still setup for fs20..

saw lakes msg on fs20 also

[haughty moon]

Yeah I turned off my other nodes since I had to run to work

[umbral ice]

Got a call from the folks who are hosting MHR. What are the chances an Ascom filtered Femtofox with my 8db antenna for MHR would cause this kind of noise so far outside of band? I feel like it's pretty nil especially since it's about 10 or 15 feet from the other UHF antennas.

[broken turret]

Nope. I wrote ROUTER_LATE, but not CLIENT_BASE.

You might perhaps be thinking of me, because my long blog post on ROUTER_LATE mentioned CB a few times, and that was where you first heard about it?

[broken turret]

Self-amalgamating tape isn't normally UV-resistant, and degrades very quickly.

Standard technique is to put a layer of PVC tape on top of it to deal with the UV, and then a cable tie on top of that, to stop the end of it creeping back.

[broken turret]

It's possible if the radio isn't well shielded. They typically use a lower IF, which may be what their meter is seeing. If it's picking up radiation directly from the board, it won't matter how much filtering you've got upstream of it.

Have you looked at the output on a spectrum analyser to check that the spurious emissions are sufficiently low? And ditto with nearby emitted RF using an antenna on the SA.

Can also definitively rule it in / out by comparing the SA reading at the site which shows the problem signal with an identical reading when the Femtofox is powered off.

[umbral ice]

I haven't been up there. Just got word of it today. It's been up there for almost a month now and only had the problem reported in the last week or so. The drive isn't insignificant for me, but they're up there now. They may climb up and just power it off to test. If they can find a ladder at least.

The next question is - can i turn off TX with RA and still be able to turn it on?

I assume that RA requires some kind of ack

Cause I could try that from home

[broken turret]

No. Don't do this unless you want to go visit it in person to enable TX again.

The closest you'll get is putting it in CLIENT_MUTE mode. This won't completely shut it up, but it does make transmissions much less frequent after it gets the bootup beacon & telemetry out of the way.

[broken turret]

The issue isn't ack, but setting up the crypto for the RA session. No TX means no session, and no session means no ability to make changes via RA.

[umbral ice]

Gotcha. Thanks for the advice. I'll set to client mute, that being said I don't think it's txing that much as is. Not much on LF51 up here at the moment

[prisma saddle]

@obsidian storm have you gotten any of the messages i have sent out today?

in longfast?

[umbral ice]

Good news. I just heard back and MHR was not the issue. There was a broken coax cable on the ground behind the air-conditioning unit that was causing all the problems.

[leaden crow]

Not having great luck after testing looked so promising this morning.

LAKE
Successful traces: 5
Failed traces: 7
41% Success
Outbound: -12.75dB mean SNR from 2 recorded values
Inbound: -17.62dB mean SNR from 4 recorded values

POTM
Successful traces: 3
Failed traces: 9
25% Success
Outbound: -13.25dB mean SNR from 1 recorded values
Inbound: -15.75dB mean SNR from 2 recorded values

[prisma saddle]

ya i cant get anything outside of my house/roof

cant trace any router.

was thinking its just me.. dunno

and seeing my fs20 node was very confusing.

i shut it off.

[leaden crow]

That is really strange

[prisma saddle]

might try factory resetting my roof. maybe the fslot change and nodedb reset did something.. dunno

[real cedar]

Well, no offense to trace routes. They're not a good measurement of the network

But they're probably all we have

[leaden crow]

I agree with this, but it's the most measurable thing we can do for testing.

[real cedar]

I've seen this happen before

Usually only on initial frequency changes

[real cedar]

My worry is that we will base all of this off the success rate of the trace route. When many things can affect whether the trace route comes through. Not the least of which includes the radio hardware itself

[leaden crow]

The weird part is that it seems like successes come in strings. like several failures in a row, then several successes.. I would guess collisions, but utilization seems low.
Anybody else have any luck testing?

[real cedar]

I have an additional measurement we can take

What I've been doing and I plan to continue doing is that the nodes that I can see from a fixed location. I will record their SNR and stuff over time.. since the app literally lets you do so and then when we change modes I'll compare it

Does that make sense

[leaden crow]

Yeah. One thing I will say. Even if our baseline is kind of bad. This is with a small test mesh.
If the tests of different presets is equal or not much worse. It's still a good sign.

[real cedar]

That's true. Can you use the command line to pull the RSSI SNR and stuff down to a spreadsheet over time or some data log?

The app offers this hang on

I think if we combine the trace root test with these signal metrics we will have a better picture

I've had pretty good luck testing today though aur is responding at least every time I pushed it in the app

When I get home or to the hacker space I'll give you my data

How would you like it formatted

[leaden crow]

After work, I'll write something to scrape SNR from the cli node list

I'll have to see if I can add RSSI too, it's not in the default cli node list

[real cedar]

Objectively, that might be our best test. The trace route relies on the mesh having a lot of nodes. But that data is only concerned with the information being exchanged between each node and the measurements being taken at each radio

Which honestly I think it's the data we want right. Because it's to do with the link budget

[prisma saddle]

i dont know how we would export this, and it was not reset when fslot was changed but it is logged in packes. https://malla.freq51.net/packets

lake to layton https://malla.freq51.net/traceroute-hops?from_node=3579471671&to_node=3771734988

but thats old info

so dunno lol

[leaden crow]

If you can find a way to collect it, that would be helpful. I will only see the SNR, RSSI value from my perspective.

[real cedar]

The only device I haven't seen is C6C

I don't know if it's a matter of node info for me or have you guys seen it

I don't want to have to go up there but I will. The only issue is it's new location. Requires me to get the drone to pull it down

Which I would much prefer to do under cover of darkness

[leaden crow]

So far, this is all I've seen.

[real cedar]

Fuck

[leaden crow]

I know their are more I have not received node_info for, because I have unknown hops in my traceroutes

[real cedar]

Guess I'm taking a walk

😂

[leaden crow]

Maybe not, didn't bash traceroute it earlier? Maybe just haven't seen the node_info yet. What is the interval?

[real cedar]

We good

It's been there on Jovialis

You know what hasn't shown up

AUR

[leaden crow]

TH Roof will switch to LF52 in a few hours. I bet my traceroutes to the South will improve.

[real cedar]

🙁

Part of me wants to upgrade the alfa to a 5.8 dB Omni (32 cm)

[leaden crow]

I'm a little unsure of the Alfas. In some installs, they have been amazing. Others kinda meh.

[real cedar]

Similar dB ... MUCH bigger span.. so more collection area

[real cedar]

It's because they aren't truly 5 dB

[leaden crow]

Both WC1 and WC2 massively improved when I swapped out the Alfas for higher gain antennas

[real cedar]

I put it on the VNA and stuff. They are closer to 3.8-4.1 max

So they over advertised the gain a good bit

But even then. Should still be a decent antenna.

[leaden crow]

That still should be fine.

[real cedar]

If y'all want I'll make the hike to AUR and switch antennas

To the one I like better

[leaden crow]

I'm going to use more of these. They are not much more than an Alfa.
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806241790045.html
45cm one is on WC2

[real cedar]

Oh that's way cheaper

Fuck I can't make an Ali account to save my life

Every time I try they ban me

Or put a hold on my acct

Can never reach their support

[leaden crow]

Lol. You probably talked to much smack on China. The Great Firewall has it's eye on you.

[real cedar]

Probably

They can go to hell

😆

The average Chinese person is chill but their government. Let's just say I wouldn't mind seeing it gone

[real cedar]

Any US store for those gizonts

[leaden crow]

Not that I am aware

[real cedar]

Can I buy them through you 😆 hahah great firewall.. boots on the ground always more agile than you

HUMAN NUMBA WAN

[prisma saddle]

ok reset my roof node. Anyone see my test messages?

[real cedar]

If you just sent it. And are chk6 yes

[prisma saddle]

Nope. Ace

[real cedar]

Rip nah I didn't see anything

Thing is. I CAN SEE RAX.. so why can't I see AUR

Guess I'll catch her RSSI on the MF test

Someone try to send my nodes DMs from down south or around the corner in the bowl

That will make aur be the last hop so maybe forcing my device to discover

[leaden crow]

Sorry I don't run a client while I'm running traceroutes. I'm afraid of API contention.
ds nsl doesn't see anything, it only worked well when it had NPR to hop through. I need to figure out something with that node.
Maybe I'll order it one of those Gizonts and get what @real cedar wants

[haughty moon]

I’m getting. Rxtr on chk6

I think it’s 1 hop

[real cedar]

Yeah your office is in the blind donut of AUR

It will never see AUR

Though it not being able to see c6c is frustrating. Maybe I'll go slam a bigger antenna on that

It currently has the 17 cm gizont

It's only gonna make it hella obvious where it sits but it's on a 50 ft tall sign

😆

[leaden crow]

I do think the Alfas are an improvement over 17 cm gizont. And small enough to still be subtle.

[real cedar]

I would have to switch the antenna live. Bad practice but a small time with a disconnect won't burn out a radio. Just long term would

(no switch and battery is soldered in)

I'll go change its antenna before I go to the space if I can. Will depend on the winds. The drone isn't stable when it starts gusting up there and it becomes difficult to safely remove a device

[pseudo kestrel]

(just a gentle fyi, I'm a guy <3)

[real cedar]

ROFL rax. I was referring to my router beating away on ensign

I call all creations and calls "her"

🤣

[pseudo kestrel]

I thought you were talking about me xD sorry

wouldn't have been the first time I've been called a lady, won't be the last xD

[real cedar]

You know I've been planning a battery pack setup for my station G2. Maybe I can replace C6Cs rak with a station G2.

Gonna need a bigger solar panel. Gonna stress the drone to do it but it would be pretty lit

[pseudo kestrel]

💔

[broken turret]

If you want stats, I have a stats thing coming... is related to the replay thing. Will give you insight into where and how much stuff is getting lost. Watch this space. Don't install the current PR on anything important; it has a crash bug at present.

[real cedar]

Oh that's awesome. I can't wait for that

I'm a stats whore and want to be able to pipe that to grafana or something 😂

[broken turret]

@real cedar The blog post is now up, if you're wanting to link it from your docs: https://meshtastic.org/blog/demystifying-router-late/

[broken turret]

It will come through as a dedicated protobuf on the replay portnum, with the default hop limit for whatever node is sending it (i.e. not zero-hopped like the rest of the replay feature is). Should be easy enough to parse out.

If there's anything in particular you want to see included, please let me know and I'll try to accommodate.

[real cedar]

Thank you.

[real cedar]

Awesome. I'm sure all of us will find this useful

And I can stop being perpetually wrong

😂

[jolly goblet]

May I present my new "roof" node. mmnX. As I posted a few days ago, I'm new here. I have a couple Wio tracker L1s and a T-echo. But, they don't work well in my house. And I've felt left out of the testing today. So...

[inner jay]

https://tenor.com/view/starwars-anakin-anakin-skywalker-if-it-works-attack-of-the-clones-gif-15304092

[leaden crow]

You should have used a freezer bag. Way more durable. 😆

[jolly goblet]

A freezer bag would have increased the cost!
I'm not sure how well it works. RxTr, said he heard me--but I got the "max retransmissions" message. I'm still trying to figure it out.

My Seeed SenseCAP solar node came today, but I got the version without batteries (it was in stock in the USA warehouse). And the 18650s I ordered haven't arrived yet. I have a Station G2 on order as a longer-term solution that I can hardwire with a proper antenna and grounding.

[inner jay]

It'll also be a little sketch for the weekend since some of the routers are down for testing

[jolly goblet]

Noob question.
I'm currently in my basement with a T-echo connected to my iphone. About 15 minutes ago, I got a notice that it found LMR. And it shows the signal strength. So I went outside to connect to mmnX, and it also found LMR, but through one hop. Does this suggest that my node in the basement saw it directly, and the one outside only saw it through another node--perhaps my node in the basement? This seems surprising to me. I would have thought it was the other way around. They are both nrf52840 devices with the sx1262 and the same antenna (Muzi works 17cm from Amazon).

[pseudo kestrel]

I saw you on the way out of Research Park to head home!

[inner jay]

Rule 1: Hops are weird

[jolly goblet]

I got your message that you were near Thieves Guild. I was walking the dog and connected to the outdoor node (mmnX) when I got back. I replied. And again, it said "Maximum Transmissions Reached." Did you get the reply?

[jolly goblet]

Good to know. And radio can definitely be weird.

[pseudo kestrel]

I didn't see your reply, but it's very interesting that you can see me 🙂

[jolly goblet]

Which one? I have a Station G2 on order, and I'll probably want (or need) to run coax to an antenna for it. I saw your posts mentioning Nullrouten and the Callboost one on AliExpress.

[real cedar]

what in the manner of absolute jank 🤣

I approve of this madness

[jolly goblet]

As a child of the 70s and 80s Angus MacGyver was a hero of mine.
[edited to correctly spell his name--must not be too much of a fan if I cannot even spell it right.]

[inner jay]

https://tenor.com/view/macgyver-1985-smile-season-7-gif-16249813741917335820

[real cedar]

ROFL

Well I suppose if it works it works

you had me and bash rolling at the hackerspace LOL

thats how I first saw it

[obsidian storm]

the fetmofox is not my favorite

[inner jay]

Problems?

[umbral ice]

@real cedar I borrowed an idea for ISR

[inner jay]

Technically not wrong

[umbral ice]

It does indeed have telemetry

[vital hemlock]

@leaden crow tomorrow is Medium Slow channel 51?

[leaden crow]

Yep, Medium Slow 51 @8am

[inner jay]

When you guys change presets, do you change the channel name too?

[leaden crow]

Nope, just the preset. Still using the same primary channel.

I am about done testing for the day. When TR Roof went online, I got a better hop to the south end of the valley, so I'm running traceroutes to LAKE, POTM and bashNinja again.
The traceroutes to bp#, bp1 and TR were 90-100%

[inner jay]

I'll set mine tonight so you'll have another node to bounce off of. I won't be up at 8 tomorrow to do it then

[manic fractal]

Technically correct is the best kind of correct.

[inner jay]

https://tenor.com/view/technically-correct-the-best-kind-of-correct-gif-17815153

[vital hemlock]

I’ll have to fiddle with it; but it used to replace the default channel when you changed modes. Perhaps it won’t now, let me move one over to MS and see if the channel remains named LongFast

Nice, I saw 24 radios today on bp1

I was in the office down town today with my bp2 radio, didn’t get to see nearly that many.

You are correct, it leaves it named LongFast. Excellent

I’ll move mine over tonight, I’ll have a busy morning

[pseudo kestrel]

I'm having a bit of trouble setting up my femtofox

the "Security" menu isn't showing up, and the full config menu is complaining about my admin key

[umbral ice]

I had to have 3 keys for it to take. I had better luck setting it up via a phone and connecting to it via IP

[leaden crow]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wmI5RfqcTUYF0zkkZmzxojrV4LfgqXtRSQzOSO0cdKs/edit?usp=sharing

These are the nodes I got successful traces back from today. I think I'll have a couple of other sources of useful data to go through at the end. I've read that SNR varies to widely to really be useful and RSSI is the better measurement. For whatever reason the cli meshtastic client does not return RSSI in --nodes, --info or --traceroute. It is in the meshtasticd debug logs, so I'll save those for each day and see what I can determine after the tests are done.

[pseudo kestrel]

aw, sad, you didn't See any of the Rx** stations 🙁

[leaden crow]

I was really surprised I got no traceroutes back from RxBs. I did run it early in the day when fewer nodes were on.
I will try again before I go to bed.
I think it is a consequence of not having LoS or a good node to hop through where you're at. Would probaby be different if AUR were online.

[pseudo kestrel]

Isn't AUR online?

[real cedar]

SNR does vary more vs rssi. RSSI is just the raw power at the antenna, so it mostly changes with distance, obstacles, or antenna orientation. It’s smooth because it follows path loss and fading in a predictable way. SNR, though, is your signal compared to the noise and interference around it. That noise floor can swing fast from things like multipath reflections, thermal noise, or other transmitters blasting in the band. Example: RSSI at -90 dBm with noise at -100 dBm gives 10 dB SNR. If noise jumps to -95 dBm, SNR instantly halves to 5 dB, even though RSSI didn’t budge. LoRa makes this extra visible because of its long symbol times and spreading factors: the radio can still decode with negative SNR, but interference or fading messes with symbol clarity way more than total power level. So RSSI tells you “how loud everything is,” while SNR tells you “how clearly your radio hears the signal in the chaos.” That’s why SNR bounces around harder.

It's important to understand the difference of each measurement and what it's telling you about the RF channel conditions

[leaden crow]

Make sense, it's frustrating to me that meshtasticd logs have the rssi values, but meshtastic cli client seems to not consume that value.

[leaden crow]

Huh, not sure why I haven't seen it today. Do you know what the hex ID is?

[pseudo kestrel]

RxTr hasn't seen it today either

[leaden crow]

I have 10 nodes in my nodedb I didn't get complete node_info for

oh, ok

[pseudo kestrel]

RxBs did, lemme see if I can figure out getting the hex from it

UserID: !8f7bd9af

NodeNum: 2407258543

[leaden crow]

Yeah, didn't see it today.

[pseudo kestrel]

Also sad that my random wifi dongle I have on my desk doesn't have support in FoxBuntu (100% shitpost, I had no expectation of it working)

meshmap.astragroup.info has all the nodes RxBs has seen within the last 12H

and I swapped it over to LF52 at 0810 this morning

[haughty moon]

so to confirm, we are keeping the name LongFast rather than blank and letting it change to default?

also, are we not worried abou the extra noise and jamming from being on the same freq slot?

[leaden crow]

Did you change the name of your default channel to be "LongFast"
On all mine, channel 0 has no name:
Index 0: PRIMARY psk=default { "psk": "AQ==", "moduleSettings": { "positionPrecision": 32, "isClientMuted": false }, "channelNum": 0, "name": "", "id": 0, "uplinkEnabled": false, "downlinkEnabled": false }

[haughty moon]

i kept mine blank

but i think others have LongFast

[leaden crow]

We'll figure it out tomorrow if people aren't receiving messages.

As far as the noise on the same frequency slot, it shouldn't be a problem. We are all really low power transmitters in ISM compared to commercial users anyway. What determines our high channel utilization and collisions is the low data rate. Can only process packets / repeat packets so quickly, and if we are on a different preset we will not process packets from different presets. It might be a good idea to do one more control test at the end on a different frequency slot.

[broken turret]

This is worthy of pinning, IMO. Very commonly not understood, and you've described it beautifully 🙂

[real cedar]

Your welcome. Can you pin it or can I

I don't think I can

@obsidian storm @prisma saddle @leaden crow add it to our docs #1197577977781821541 message

[real cedar]

The hardware side of RF is more my area of expertise 😆

[broken turret]

I can't. Would need to be someone who has the necessary permissions in this channel.

[real cedar]

Cock munch

😆

[pseudo kestrel]

following my tradition of making the gen.1 cases for every node as cursed as I reasonably can ❤️

[reef ridge]

Cardboard is the enclosure material of champions, thank you very much.

[leaden crow]

MS51 switch done. So far initial traceroutes are good.

[strong pagoda]

Would night vision or thermal goggles help with this? I got both lol

[leaden crow]

I did end up getting some successful traces to you last night.

Route traced towards destination:
!eba4d26b --> Unknown (?dB) --> !433dcc48 (-1.25dB)
Route traced back to us:
!433dcc48 --> Unknown (?dB) --> !eba4d26b (-14.25dB)

Route traced towards destination:
!eba4d26b --> !e5e0542e (-4.0dB) --> !77272d1f (-10.0dB) --> !d55a6737 (-8.0dB) --> !433dcc48 (-17.0dB)
Route traced back to us:
!433dcc48 --> Unknown (?dB) --> !77272d1f (-12.5dB) --> !e5e0542e (-1.5dB) --> !eba4d26b (-10.0dB)

[pseudo kestrel]

ms51 changed my channel name from longfast to mediumslow, is that correct?

[leaden crow]

Yeah, iOS app changed mine too, but it seems to be working fine.

[neon vault]

Same for android

[leaden crow]

Really good SNR from TNU0 this morning:
Successful traces: 10
Failed traces: 2
83% Success
Outbound: 1.37dB mean SNR from 10 recorded values
Inbound: -7.37dB mean SNR from 10 recorded values

[obsidian storm]

Do you see either lake or potm?

I switched maybe 15 minutes ago

[leaden crow]

I saw POTM pop up, running traceroutes on it now

LAKE too

[pseudo kestrel]

I just got all mine swapped

hopefully I'm seen?

[real cedar]

Still working on it

[inner jay]

Mine still shows LongFast on the channel but it's on MS

[real cedar]

AUR is being fucking stubborn

😂🖕

[obsidian storm]

I can't get a single traceroute to complete to potm, but remote admin is perfect

[leaden crow]

I got one back from POTM
Route traced towards destination:
!eba4d26b --> !e5e0542e (0.5dB) --> !77272d1f (-7.5dB)
Route traced back to us:
!77272d1f --> !e5e0542e (-6.0dB) --> !eba4d26b (-10.25dB)

Not great so far though
Successful traces: 1
Failed traces: 3
25% Success
Outbound: 1.00dB mean SNR from 1 recorded values
Inbound: -9.75dB mean SNR from 1 recorded values

[real cedar]

Grab the RSSI and SNR then

[real cedar]

Medium Slow 51 correct?

[leaden crow]

Yes

[real cedar]

1030 and I still can't open the RA Lora menu on AUR

Gonna need tips

[leaden crow]

Maybe it was just a solar flare? POTM is responding to all traceroutes now.

Successful traces: 6
Failed traces: 3
66% Success
Outbound: -2.20dB mean SNR from 6 recorded values
Inbound: -10.79dB mean SNR from 6 recorded values

[real cedar]

Guess imma have to drive down closer to AUR

😑

😂

[real cedar]

Without all the other nodes it's very hard for me to admin that router. I'm driving down legacy right now to see if I can get a really good SNR and RSSI before I start again

My biggest problem is the node that is responsible for being able to do so is the tracker 1000e and they are weak man. Very weak

[umbral ice]

I moved my admin public key to a more capable node than the t1000e

Made all the difference

[real cedar]

Yeah I didn't know how fucking awful they are at transmitting back

I'll put my car node in why I'm there

[umbral ice]

i didn't even change the key in the remote node admin list. just literally copied/pasted my public key to the better node and then regenerated the old one to something new. I figured it would work, but was still pleasantly surprised to know that it did

[real cedar]

Wow I'm by the airport and I still can't talk to it

WTF if I have to hike just to speak to it I'm done testing 😂

[obsidian storm]

You want to borrow a nebra node for RA?