US - Utah

[real cedar]

Let me ask first but I think DC801 channel might be down for it
But my Borealis telem channel probably not 🤣 while we all know the general locations of nodes. I don't want the entire internet pinpointing their exact loc haha as a precaution

[vital hemlock]

Nodes starting to pop in

https://mesh.thebadplace.org/map

It is indeed waiting on nodeinfo packets.

@real cedar it's fairly light, if you want to run your own for your routers and private channels.

[pseudo kestrel]

can I force the sending of a nodeinfo packet?

[vital hemlock]

If you're on android you can touch another node and exchange user info, that sends your nodeid

There, saw it, you're in

[white field]

Weather is looking nice enough that I’m gonna place a node one day this weekend. 😇

Plan is to setup boulter peak if the trails are fully melted out

This will get us that Mary’sNipple/skyline activation

[white field]

As of the latest satellite images on OnX, Mount Ellen is looking almost entirely clear of snow.

I think Moab link is possible as soon as I get the weekend time and motivation. 🤩

When it’s less work to solar charge the batteries back to 100% with some lamps than disassembling them. 🤣

[vital hemlock]

hell yeah 😄

I want a better answer about "okay to mqtt". If we dont need it on for gathering info I dont want it on, someone will end up sending it to the global mqtt server I just know it 👎

Rem checked, didnt see our stuff on there currently, that's something

[white field]

I’d really prefer no mqtt since someone local might be tempted to rebroadcast on Lora

But I’m okay with it if it’s a private broker

I really want the devs to disable mqtt globally in firmware

It’s too dangerous for meshes if anyone re broadcasts

[pallid isle]

My heltec wireless Tracker Module can't update

IDK what's going on

[real cedar]

Yeah it's tough it can take down a mesh really easily

I think if it's only forwarding to a broker and it's not rebroadcast bidirectional or its just neighbor info over lora I think that keeps network util low enough but full mqtt can blast at internet rates

[vital hemlock]

They've solved this for now, all hop counts are taken down to 0 on the official server. Nothing will broadcast from it any more. 👍

This is uplink only, reporting "to" mqtt, not downlinking to rebroadcast

[real cedar]

So I guess I have trouble trying to figure out all this mapping stuff
We have MQTT
We have Neighborhood Info over Lora. Is that an MQTT packet by default?

I have intel
AT&T long line sites might be pretty ideal for router_lates and routers. As long as stuff isn't on their actual property I've heard most of their contractors that run it are pretty chill as long as something's not egregious.

Its gives us a pretty good idea of the geography problem and how others solved it. Now obviously this network doesn't have a hop limit and it prioritizes bandwidth and efficiency but these sites do tell us where others put stuff

https://long-lines.com/map/original

https://telephoneworld.org/long-distance-companies/att-long-distance-network/history-of-att-long-lines/

Also understand they are closer spaced because they zig zag to avoid signal overlap. Anyways.. Just potential sites to think about if a local deadzone or area needed coverage

[real cedar]

@leaden crow heads up man. Might wanna get any of your Ali stuff now
https://www.business-standard.com/world-news/cheap-shopping-just-ended-in-us-as-trump-plugs-de-minimis-tariff-loophole-125042501004_1.html

[leaden crow]

Unfortunately what I want are more of these:
https://www.seeedstudio.com/XIAO-nRF52840-Wio-SX1262-Kit-for-Meshtastic-p-6400.html
I ordered one in Jan. to test out (shipped last week, should be arriving soon). I should have just ordered a bunch. What people are saying is that Seeed is adding $20 shipping to new preorders for the next batch.
Rokland has a large stock of RAK kits right now, but who knows how long that will last or if they jack the price.

[real cedar]

I have something still tied up in customs from them since March

[vital hemlock]

I ordered this the other day. Hoping it isn’t a nightmare to get.

https://m.elecrow.com/pages/shop/product/details?id=207972&

[real cedar]

Just prepare for it.

I also have some chemicals I got at a bargain but it's from a place in Europe that will always get stopped and maybe me put on a list but in any case money was the name of the game

[leaden crow]

I think the low cost solar node turned out good. I probably won't build more because of XIAO nRF52840 availability. Also Seeed announced this:
https://www.seeedstudio.com/SenseCAP-Solar-Node-P1-for-Meshtastic-LoRa-p-6425.html
While I do think my hardware and enclosure is nicer, the cost is about sixes. I was thinking I could keep my cost under $50, but tariffs and a few other things killed that. Maybe if I cut the post mount kit (most expensive part). Still need to spot weld the battery / BMS.
BOM: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q1FjqozQR83Xcak6rK-ZUiIHDR0YKH_R28HjLxGJLeQ/edit?usp=sharing

[vital hemlock]

Yours looks really clean, I dig it. Seeed has been doing the work, if they can push volume eventually their new nrf is a go-to.

[real cedar]

I try to aim for less than 120 bucks

[real cedar]

Very clearly done. So your going sch80 PVC?

[real cedar]

Does it do a full 1W output?

[leaden crow]

Nah, this is just standard 22dBm SX1262. Just a lot cheaper than a RAK:
https://www.seeedstudio.com/XIAO-nRF52840-Wio-SX1262-Kit-for-Meshtastic-p-6400.html

I wanted to build these for friends / family as cheap roof nodes. In most cases they are good enough. 1 watt is still difficult to do in solar. I know it's possible with femtofox and larger panel, but I don't want to have to manage those for a bunch of lay people.

[leaden crow]

I actually don't have a spot for this one yet. I have some schedule 40 grey on hand, which should be good enough for short mast with only this lightweight node, but we'll see where it ends up.

[real cedar]

Well I over spent

[long crown]

I went to order one of the seeed studio kits and shipping was outrageous. It was like $25.

[real cedar]

1 watt is possible but tbch while you can run it off a femtofox.. Software sustainment will be easier on an RPI zero and all you need for that is 8x 18650s or 21700s in parallel with a boost converter for supplying the pi and a buck converter for the 12V down to lion voltage

[real cedar]

That is due to tariffs

25 dollar minimum

Its going to get worse. That's apparently being raised to 50

[long crown]

I tried adding 4 to my cart and shipping is still crazy

And those prepaid import duties 😭

[real cedar]

Dude thats 4 nodes though

Like 4 raks would be what.. 250 bucks haha

And that's after shipping

[real cedar]

Got an option for ya bud

https://a.co/d/5SDfCJM

[long crown]

Now we're talking! I guess these prices will only last as long as local stock is around right?

[leaden crow]

Don't order those. That board is only the MCU. It's not the kit that includes the SX1262 part.

[real cedar]

Ahhh

[long crown]

What about this? https://www.amazon.com/XIAO-ESP32S3-Wio-SX1262-Development-Meshtastic/dp/B0DZCQ1FG3/ref=sr_1_15?crid=1J7SXC3RKQ8VP&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.qZeunSv7sllIj2_ulSnsg3pKOkbn8hp_9X33IAD11U8z-vDWYJ0YH9ScGTsguVW-3lbhdJnqutS5Jaj5Cw0lkg7QiiTkFIeMobJEDtUreh_TdrN-MvHa_L6g1wymDDS3VQUgOA5r8JloUCmfVMA1mzJOyrRjlnE4uct_3TIP4s7G9n78H-VCU0Sq86zN1rl9HbWwygEP-wjsqC0RR0Su1KVBtYzhuq9T7kV1YC-o6bc.GMUG_mCDg8G5qtMPpDLMmzNywhCFaaPtwWl3uFrJCng&dib_tag=se&keywords=SX1262&qid=1745866972&sprefix=sx1262%2Caps%2C148&sr=8-15

[leaden crow]

That's the ESP one, it's not good for solar.

[real cedar]

Its far better than a pi haha

I mean beggers can't be choosers. And you can definitely get away with using one with 4x 21700s

[leaden crow]

Yeah, but still not great, you still need way bigger panel and battery.
Honestly, Rokland still has a lot of RAK stock. I would only buy those for now.
https://store.rokland.com/products/rak-wireless-wisblock-meshtastic-starter-kit

[long crown]

Yeah that's probably what I'll do.

[leaden crow]

Rokland has pretty good volume discounts. Might be worth it to buy 10 for $28.68/ea
I'd have to look through my email, but they have free shipping over some price and I think they don't charge UT sales tax.

If you need some and want to do an order for 10, I could buy at least a couple.

[real cedar]

Damn. Y'all planning a ton of routers? Or is it for home deployment and reaching hard to reach areas (canyons)

[leaden crow]

I am only planning 1 or 2 routers for wasatch crest this summer.
This is trying to get home/roof nodes for some of my family & friends.

[real cedar]

Wasatch crest?

[long crown]

I'm putting together a node for my car, then I'm hoping to connect to Utah County somewhere near lone peak once the snow melts a little more.

I just need one at the moment, but it looks like rokland gives free shipping even on just the one.

[real cedar]

Who's in charge of NPR again?

Cuz it needs a filter. Maybe a 1 watt upgrade?

[leaden crow]

https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/3654027/wasatch-crest
I intend to put a router on Desolation Peak. I get a season pass for the Wasatch Crest shuttle service and usually ride it every week during the summer.

[leaden crow]

@hallow dagger

[leaden crow]

#1302945239689990185 message

[real cedar]

OHHHHHHH the back side.. so I had a thought for this.. so I want to put a router on Mt Olympus ultimately because its better than ensign..
BUT
Mt Raymond is also useful. Since it could not only backhaul to that spot but it could help connect up brighton and its back country where I spend a LARGE amount of my time

also I hate my life rn

I need to get this biased right and unfortunately the manufacturer gives me an AN as usual without microstrip layout dimensions and substrate

This is why we cant have nice things infineon

[real cedar]

ahhhh is he not on discord anymore or unreachable? Ive seen his node out there

[leaden crow]

This is the not-low-cost version. Based on these:
https://www.printables.com/model/820212-meshtastic-solar-base-station
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4094861

[vital hemlock]

Looks great man!

[real cedar]

@vital hemlock how do you configure mqtt for uplink to your thing on the nodes. Tonight I'm going to drive down to the new highway they built closer to the lake. Get perfect LOS and admin the router on ensign

I usually only get one shot at a good send for a module config before other peoples stuff takes back over

Easier at night

[real cedar]

@leaden crow the place your putting that. Crest.. Can it be tweaked to see some portion of brighton's higher areas?

Just curious. And also curious if it will be fully connected to the network or an isolated island for a while?

[leaden crow]

I think it will connect to NPR, and I wouldn't be surprised if Brighton / Solitude had some LoS to it.
40.65811°N / 111.59534°W
9,990'

I probably won't get it right at the summit, will mostly likely be in a tree on the west side of desolation peak

[real cedar]

Please get it very close to the summit 🙏board town needs it 🤣

Saves me like 3 canyon routers

Literally

Holy balls. Send me the heywhatsthat link for that

[leaden crow]

haha, I will do some scouting.
I intend my initial placing may be temporary, may have to move it around a bit.

I have a lot of choices up there, my initial goal is to try and hit NPR

[real cedar]

What is the primary type of tree your targetting?

[leaden crow]

Well, when I scouted last year, I was looking further away from desolation with better coverage into Millcreek, but I changed my mind

[real cedar]

Well I'm curious how much it actually sees. Like full scope. Looking north. Very curious what other peaks can see it and if it makes olympus a pointless router

If so I'll leave AUR where it is. Put neptunia and black mountain down.. Dedicate ita hardware to desert?

Also great info here
https://docs.burningmesh.org/

Well.. Used to be

[leaden crow]

Unfortunately I don't think my pano is 360 degrees. I don't think it shows much of brighton to the south.

The trick is going to be hitting NPR through that notch

[leaden crow]

I think this is super optimistic
https://www.heywhatsthat.com/?view=CVXTAR63

[real cedar]

you did it wrong

[leaden crow]

lol

I thought it looked too good

[real cedar]

one sec

[real cedar]

https://www.heywhatsthat.com/?view=C8B8CM6W

thats your best possible view in that spot

top of the 8 ft pine

Terrain view kinda shows why a bit easier

[real cedar]

So heres a salvage to the plan. Hear me out. Kessler? https://www.heywhatsthat.com/?view=MURGPXR6
As a relay to NPR. then any of its LOS zones could let you put it on a ridge and bounce it over.. faaahhhgeetabout hiding it though lol

[leaden crow]

That's great, but I can't bike to it.

[real cedar]

also someone at the hacker space has a router out there and LMAO I so badly want to see if we can make a 130 mile jump work haha
Oh yeah that would definitely be a hike haha

cuz if we can .. theres NO reason why a short fast in the valley shouldnt work with the much closer clustered routers

[leaden crow]

It might be that I have 2 or 3 nodes along wasatch crest by fall. My goal is to get one that can see NPR (or some other node in the valley) first.

[real cedar]

TBCH i would make it a router_late
Its meant to cluster a bunch of local nodes between sparse coverage gaps and difficult to reach locations

[real cedar]

Are you hauling all your cargo on the bike?

cargo biking haha?

[leaden crow]

no, small tree mounted nodes that fit in my cycling backpack

[real cedar]

ahh so not.. heres enough battery to survive the arctic .. have fun.. type nodes lol

gotta say.. smarter.. logistics is easier

[leaden crow]

well, It would be the same batteries that have survived the winter on NPR, Onaqui, etc

[real cedar]

logistics for what I need is an art ... how to get construction materials on foot in one trip without straining us too much or the bikes up 8000 ft haha... and the water with the cement mix

[leaden crow]

but yeah, it might not make it a year, I just want to start testing

[real cedar]

I mean how hard is an extra cell in parallel

the enclosure looks big enough is what I mean

Just thinking.. it kinda sucks to recover a dead node.

[leaden crow]

that's why I want to place it next to the trail. I will be there almost every week from June - Oct

I could add more batteries, I just bought battery bags that perfectly hold 2x 21700 though

[real cedar]

mnt kessler is why I cant have nice things

[real cedar]

ahhh that makes sense

what do you do up there?

[leaden crow]

https://bigrackshuttle.com/wasatch-crest-bike-shuttle/

Buy season pass from those guys. I can ride my bike to the pickup spot after work, ride all the way back to my house

[real cedar]

after I fix my rear wheel again. May have broken a second wheel riding very aggressively LOL

Hazard of the sport. I dont mind shredding wheels. I dont go too expensive

cracked my first WTB LOL.. then this race face has a solid tick in it to one direction. probably an internal crack based on my spoke meters readings. Will take it to guthries .. hes gonna face palm at me

Hey man so you know what shiny new awesome twice as strong wheel you carefully laced for me.. yeah I broke it

[leaden crow]

What are you riding? 27.5? 29er?
I'm pretty sure my friend has a spare DH wheelset I doubt you would break.

[real cedar]

27.5 and.. honestly at this point after sedona.. Never say never

[leaden crow]

They would probably be a beast pedalling though. and you wouldn't be able to use the DH hubs

[real cedar]

DT350?

centerlock?

not familiar with the DH wheels

[leaden crow]

I would have to ask him, but I'm almost certain they are 157 DH spacing (the rear)

I'll ask if you are interested. He was asking me if I wanted wheels for my DH bike. I'm pretty sure he's running mullet so the rear wheel would be 27.5

[real cedar]

OOOOFFFF

wrong BOOST

unfortunately this is my rear. These arent screwed. Just the wheels around it.. I keep busting double wall wheels mostly because of rocks and city jumps and doing dumb stuff on infra

Its a tough bike and 90% not itself anymore.. but im tougher on it haha

[leaden crow]

If you took it, you most likely would be re-lacing the rim to whatever hub you have. Honestly probably not worth it. Spoke count also unlikely

If you are hard on rear wheels, you should run Cushcore in the rear, or just run DH casing tires

[real cedar]

yeah haha. no worries. Ill have my guy fix the wheel. I might be lucky. bent rims CAN be bent back with careful tensioning

[leaden crow]

I had a different insert in my rear and just gave up on it and run a DH casing in the rear

Cushcore are such a pain in the ass, I think a heavier casing tire is better

[real cedar]

Ben Lomond gonna suck but I like the face route. Its shorter.. and you make insane progress for how much you get tired haha

If I do that I need a bullet proof node and sadly I dont think the peak will be viable...

Too difficult to hide so I would need to choose a side unluss I find a tree on the ridge but thats danger close

It wouldnt be a bad ogden local area router though haha

🤔

would need to be masterfully disguised and painted well..

Also.. The node would get absolutely gob smacked by winds look at the shapes of those trees haha.. And with the 80+ inch snow depth.. I kinda wonder if it will even make the winter. Maybe two giant LTO batteries in it? 4 month reserve haha

Imagine that spot during the peak of a strong winter storm. It would be deadly to try and stand there haha

@leaden crow I've actually been thinking about an interesting node design for this kind of problem. For that kind of tree, getting the antennas strapped to a top branch wouldn't be very obvious. However, we have one downside. We need a cable and that reduces the signal. So it would have to be a one-watt node. So I thought about this and I was like, well, okay, so maybe the batteries can be strapped to a different spot on the tree. And then the solar panel can be somewhere very discreet, but it doesn't need to be mounted to the node. And the actual node could be just a small 3D printed square that gets strapped with a nice Velcro strap to the tree. Then nobody would see an ugly enclosure, and the batteries could be discreetly put somewhere they would actually blend in, if painted correctly. I feel like this is a lot to assemble on a mountaintop and I would need to dry run it a couple times so once I got there there would be less surprises.

the idea is hide the core and guts deep in the tree. the solar panel on a blind branch and the antenna near the top of the tree

[prisma saddle]

Hey UT!

Out in Herriman/Riverton. Working on ideas to connect to family in lehi. Seems cant hit any of them out there unless they at pt of the mountain or alpine. bounces off the mountain it seems. but wont hit the low parts of lehi.

need something on the hill there above herriman it seems

id think bluffdale would have meshed them over.. but.. 😦

[vital hemlock]

👋
Are you on channel 51, or the default channel 20?

[prisma saddle]

im doing LongFast default 20.

longfast is my primary.. not moved it to secondary.. still learning/messing

something i should be adding to connect with more?

oh that 51chat?

[prisma saddle]

Is it suggested i move things around then and put public longfast as a secondary and so on? i see the pins in there, @vital hemlock

[prisma saddle]

Pulled out a new rak19007 and trying to get it setup on channel 51/etc.. any guidance here?

[leaden crow]

I don't think anyone is using that 51chat channel.

Just switch your frequency slot to 51 (you'll have to do the same on all the devices you want to communicate with), and see if that works better for you than 20. LF51 has a router at Point of the Mountain, it may be the hop you need.

[prisma saddle]

Sweet thanks. so normal default 0 for longfast though, right? @leaden crow

channel 0.. and override the default freq slot ?

[leaden crow]

The apps list 0 for default (obfuscating the fact that it's actually 20). That is the value you want to switch to 51.
More details here:
https://meshtastic.org/docs/overview/radio-settings/

[prisma saddle]

right i get that. and that is changed under lora settings > freq slot.. right?

[dense basin]

Channel 20 (default) is a major crap show here, and there might be enough actual nodes to get you to Lehi but your messages might pinball around 20 hops before actually getting there

[vital hemlock]

Is your node Ace-Router?

Sorry, I was afk

@prisma saddle are you on android or iphone? I can send you a screenshot

[prisma saddle]

yup. that is me. and yes both.. was on andriod to set the neiboor stuff,, then back to iphone.

but that would be great! no prob thanks for all your help.

ive had things running on default 20 for weeks. but was not getting the results i wanted.. then found this and that there was a router at the pt.. so that is awsome

[dense basin]

Yeah i am in Layon and can rarely get messages to even Bountiful because of all the routers near me

On default 20 that is

[prisma saddle]

ha ha just got a spam of nodes.. and crashed the app

[dense basin]

If I set my max hops to 7 then it is more reliable but I trace route and see router router router router it's nuts

[vital hemlock]

You dont usually want to go that high, if you can see many other radios. The routers take care of everything for us. This can be a bit of an explanation

First, you dont need your own router, I would set that to CLIENT. Router just responds "faster" that clients, so the clients dont have to and make a bunch of extra radio noise.

If the routers handle the traffic, then you dont end up needing a high hop count

[prisma saddle]

just dumped my t-beam for a rak19007 so was resetting up my devices.

tbeam was my router on the roof.

[vital hemlock]

I do love the tbeams too, they are very reliable. A lot of the early hardware is

The suggestion is this; mountain top radios are routers, roof top perhaps client, mobile units client_mute, because they dont need to contribute to the mesh or the noise.

[prisma saddle]

ya its a nice node.. just was not working the way i like.. like cant sue blu on router mode.. etc.. but has wifi. so who knows

rgr that can make changes.

[vital hemlock]

tbeams with power run to them make good roof nodes, because of wifi. Android clients can connect to IP's, so if you put them on wifi that works in your whole house.

raspberry pi's also make good roof nodes, for the same reason. Plus we have 1 watt modules now, which is nice

[prisma saddle]

oh nice.. hmm.... might rethink things.. will see ha ha

new setup for roof

[dense basin]

I hope he gets the 1w Pi HATs back in stock soon I really wanna play with one

[vital hemlock]

Are you going solar with that?

[dense basin]

Nice

[vital hemlock]

Ah, a wyze panel, nice

😄

[prisma saddle]

nope. some random amazon.. but looks like it

[vital hemlock]

oh, really!

[prisma saddle]

maybe wyze gets the same ones

haha

[vital hemlock]

They may, they work well for my cameras, I have no beef with them 🙂

[prisma saddle]

https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Compatible-Rechargeable-Surveillance-Continuous/dp/B09CYWCCCY

had that running for a week now on the tbeam with one bat.. kept it charged fine

but in the box is the rak19007 instead.

just need to move to the roof.. once roof is dry.

[vital hemlock]

tbeams are power hungry, that's their downside

[prisma saddle]

question.. will the andriod / neighboor settings keep going even after i disconnect and reconnect with iphone?

[vital hemlock]

The neighbor_info module just notes who it can talk to and and shares that periodically

you dont have to be connected

all the radios work and relay messages without a client conencted. It'll just tell your phone when it missed when you reconnect

[prisma saddle]

right. just wanted to see it on the map and see who i connect to. 🙂

for "science"

[vital hemlock]

you're showing up now

https://mesh.thebadplace.org/map

[prisma saddle]

right. was getting MIL's node all setup and switched over.

[vital hemlock]

You are trying to get down into Lehi you said?

[prisma saddle]

yup

near thanksgiving point

i can hit alpine and american fork.. just not west of i-15

so for the pi.. is it a lora hat or something that goes on it?

not looked into that

have an extra pi5 i could play with

[leaden crow]

https://github.com/chrismyers2000/MeshAdv-Pi-Hat

[vital hemlock]

You dont need the power of the pi5, you can use a pi zero

[prisma saddle]

right. . didnt think so. ha ha

[vital hemlock]

w2 anyway, I wouldnt use a pi zero v1

[prisma saddle]

cool!

[leaden crow]

I had one running on a 32bit Pi2 for quite a while, but much prefer arm64. Personally I prefer a Zero2W or 3A+ over a Pi4 or 5.

They are just more power and heat, you really don't need that much processing power and memory for a meshtasticd client

[prisma saddle]

yup understood

I do a lot of house holiday lights. and use pi's for that stuff.. even a 5 overpowered for that.

[vital hemlock]

https://www.printables.com/model/1244203-meshadv-pi-hat-enclosure

This is mine

I put the pi hat on the bottom, left me room for wires

The heatsinks make the lora bits go faster, clearly

[prisma saddle]

ill have to get my fam to get moved over to 51 to see if this made a diff. hes out of town currently.

traced the pt at 1 hop

[leaden crow]

I can reach your nodes from North Salt Lake

│ 3 │ ACE-Roof │ !d620d312 │ ACER │ RAK4631 │ IV153M8sedE3rXU2O9Vw9LcdraAWn2V1eLsxiSQvMiY= │ N/A │ 40.5012° │ -112.0141° │ 1465m │ Powered │ 19.60% │ 0.07% │ -4 dB │ 1 │ 0 │ 2025-04-30 14:39:36 │ 1 min ago │

Sending traceroute request to !d620d312 on channelIndex:0 (this could take a while)
Route traced towards destination:
!eb5de3e2 --> !452b53bf (?dB) --> !0e81d07d (?dB) --> !d620d312 (4.0dB)
Route traced back to us:
!d620d312 --> Unknown (?dB) --> !eb5de3e2 (-13.25dB)

[prisma saddle]

ill bet it works

nice!

need to get all those other default channel people moved over.. but with correct client settings...

i def see how routers/etc could kill things off

[leaden crow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htjwtnjQkkE

[prisma saddle]

yup watching that now

[vital hemlock]

Channel 20 is a shouting match, packet wise 😄

[prisma saddle]

this is true

[vital hemlock]

Hey, we're excited when a new radio pops up. Glad you're here!

[prisma saddle]

gonna be getting all fam on it.. so prob 6 more.. once mine and MIL is connecting

and then all their t1000e.. ill make them get

bro and I are trying to figure how getting grantsville in the picture.

we need some up on the mountain..

[vital hemlock]

I actually think we might already be able to reach them, right @real cedar ?

[prisma saddle]

dad is there.

was working wth the city i guess to do some stuff. dunno how far he got

[leaden crow]

DC801 has some people in Tooele and they can occasionally reach the valley through NPR and Onaqui

[vital hemlock]

on 51, there's a chance

[prisma saddle]

but dont think he knows about 51

ya

il have to bug him

been wanting to get some nodes up on some schools/churches.. but this may make it so I dont need to.. dunno for the other family higher up in herriman

is there anything up in springville yet?

id love to hit hobblecreek one day

[vital hemlock]

There is another planned router for the wasatch side of the valley, I think it'll basically leave us where we need to be. After that users can just get the radios they want to acutally use and not worry about the rest.

[prisma saddle]

sweet. bascally hitting all the ham repeater locations?

[vital hemlock]

Definitely near them, a number of them

but we are shooting for a few very long runs as well

[prisma saddle]

sweet ! im excited. glad i found this ha ha

so my first use case is cell phone signal is herriman is garbage.. as is internet service.. so if that goes down. mil cant get a call out.. so the thought is she can at least message one of us.. etc..

second would be for emergency prep of course..

working on my ham tech license as well..

other fam members have that.. i feel left out.. so.. ha ha

[prisma saddle]

messing with the neighbor map. still not seeing on there. i probm missed a setting.

but everything else seems awesome!

[real cedar]

Well. Docs will help you
I don't keep longfast on 0. Since I operate routers and other devices that have a lot of telemetry.. I keep it on 1. My telemetry channel Borealis is 0.

That way you can keep your privacy on longfast and monitor your other nodes with precision in your own telemetry channel

If your in herrimen and bluffdale. Increase your hop count to 5 to compensate for the stupid hops in the city to get down to lehi. I've had weird situations in that are and olympys heights

You might have to hop through BCP primary

In which case you'll need the extra hops. I tried trace routing down to a node I saw way south and it went POTM -> BCP and back to POTM 😭 haha before going and I was like wtf

[prisma saddle]

Yeah, I have things changed over to 51 now for long fast and I should be able to see other people now once I get them to change over as well. Should see real results of that tomorrow.

And I’m gonna work on my grantsville side to see what they can do as well. To see if that helps or not.

[real cedar]

So. I got a router on ensign peak so you should be able to see me. Were you and your friends the cluster of bodes I saw suddenly come online

Saw a couple new ones in day break too

[prisma saddle]

all the ace and bde and jal ya. that’s all mine and so on.

We’ll have some more pop-up tomorrow, hopefully Grantsville and lehi as well

[real cedar]

Ahh.. Yeah still waiting on another node info exchange. I might DM your bodes to force it so the stupid red key goes away.

[prisma saddle]

Yeah, I definitely need to work out my channels list and positioning and so on right now I’m just sending it all out but yeah, I think one day

[real cedar]

I mean I can help. I did a lot of recent testing on rak modules

[prisma saddle]

cool.

[real cedar]

Figured out a bunch of optimal client settings depending on roles and stuff.

[prisma saddle]

just dm all my nodes. will see if my roof one pops up on the map

[real cedar]

Actually if you ping AUR I gave y'all a free weather and air quality station haha

On ensign peak

[prisma saddle]

cool. lol.

[real cedar]

I had to remove them force the key exchange again lol

T1000e not liking 2.6.4

At all

[prisma saddle]

I see mine on the map just not the neighbor map. And the only one that should be on the neighbor map now is my roof ones. So just waiting for those to update their rak 19007.

Yeah, since changing the 51 I can ping and message even my local ones better. I think it might’ve been my router settings, changing them the client and so on after watching that video with smiley face.

[prisma saddle]

this ensign peak?

seems i can’t hit it.

[prisma saddle]

hmm ya i can’t hit aus @real cedar

[real cedar]

Yes

[prisma saddle]

weird my roof outside one can hit it. but my inside can’t.

[real cedar]

Interesting. Well I trace route to you and it hops directly to it to your roof node lol

[prisma saddle]

hmm ya roof hits it. mobile does not.

[real cedar]

Probably because your inside. If your roof is a client and your mobile is client mute or hidden. It should hop to your roof node first and then anywhere else

[prisma saddle]

i’m sitting 5 feet from my roof one. mobile is client mute. roof is client.

[real cedar]

😂 don't know what to tell you on that one haha

[prisma saddle]

lol

i’ll just give it time. lol.

[real cedar]

Yeah it could be that. I need to get a new metrics server going so I can start collecting all that stuff in one place. Each of the routers I put up this year will feature weather and air quality. Would be nice to have a long running graph of values

[prisma saddle]

see how bad our air is getting. lol.

im gonna bug you later for help on private and public longfast changing/settings for position. another day.

[real cedar]

A lot less worse than the news sensationalizes but still on par with what I expect for a bowl locked city

[prisma saddle]

sweet my roof node is on neighbor map.

[real cedar]

I should be around for the most part

[real cedar]

On PBs neighbor map?

[prisma saddle]

slcmesh.

[real cedar]

Make sure you coordinate your efforts a bit when placing a router or router_late. Collisions are our biggest worry atm I think as we expand slowly and get ready for a move to.. MF? Or SF? Not sure what we have decided on just yet

If it's just a client.. Have fun 🤣

[prisma saddle]

yup will see where they are at.

told him all his settings were wrong.

[real cedar]

Basically that new router mode.. Router late is extremely useful for things that are high enough above the city like POTM and AUR.. In a way we can use them to force rebroadcasts when things get a little wonky. The idea is we will take the peaks we need for routers.. Router lates at the elevations of POTM and AUR, client modes otherwise and we think if we do this right we could have a very large and useful network.. 20 is a bit of a disaster. It's great for local stuff but you'll exhaust hops making the jumps we already make on LF51 due to poor placement and roles and settings on that frequency slot

[real cedar]

I can give you the 99% answer
When in doubt client
If inside client mute
If strategic but very very local.. Client
If strategic at a sight like potm or AUR.. Router late.. If you can already see multiple routers or Router lates... Then client even though you have good placement. That way you don't exhaust hops unnecessarily

The rest is all up to you tbch. Also always set the maximum number of hops to +1 of the farthest person you need to reach and yeah you pretty much have what you need tbch

Nodeinfo broadcast intervals. Change as you see fit. Anything below 3600 is literally pointless and detrimental from what people have found in testing.. Honestly 10800 works for 99% of cases

Neighbor info. Keep to 14400. No point changing it. Your neighbors won't change that often. I would avoid enabling neighbor information on non stationary nodes or nodes that will travel long distances on the network. According to the docs it will mess with the map

Most of this we got from reading the documentation but yeah other than that the rest is really just use case? I like to keep nodes I don't care to have much info out and available on.. As silent as possible so I run client hidden a lot on my indoor stuff and t1000e cards

I'm unfortunately at the northern most tip and edge of the network itself. On a hill. Haha. So I need 7 hops to reach anything beyond potm due to weird stuff in the city.

I plan to change this with a router on promontory point

[real cedar]

https://meshtastic.org/blog/why-your-mesh-should-switch-from-longfast/

[prisma saddle]

awesome thanks so much! i’ll adjust as needed.

[tired urchin]

Did anyone get my message from Delta flight 2070? I was DM'ing my buddy in the ground in Orem and sent a couple over long fast on approach

[prisma saddle]

yup

you see mine @tired urchin

my replies.

from ace

[tired urchin]

Yes I did!

I was using the T-1000E my buddy loaned me for the trip. Wasn't able to make any contacts in Charlotte.

[prisma saddle]

oh dang. cool. you getting something ordered?

ha ha that is awesome!

[real cedar]

@vital hemlock not gonna be able to update AUR remotely. Too much traffic. Trying to put its over the drop limit easily. Gonna have to wait until we move to MF or SF or make another trip up there to put it and it's neighbor data on the map 😦

Unless someone's running lots of stuff then I can just wait

[prisma saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/monkey-look-the-other-way-look-away-awkward-weird-gif-17246188

ha ha.. uhhh.

[leaden crow]

you need to get a yaggi antenna to point at it

[prisma saddle]

I promise i put my stuff on the right settings.. lol

Ugg i hate that iphone app cant do all the modules.

[real cedar]

It should be. We all see your stuff

[prisma saddle]

Right i just replying to your message about not being able to remote to aus. hopefully i was not flooding things

I do have a node i need to change the update timers a bit still.

[real cedar]

I don't think so. I don't see that kinda flood as long as you didn't change your intervals from default.. You won't be flooding anything

The defaults work for 99.9999% of the time

[vital hemlock]

Wait, how did we see them? We weren’t on channel 20, and they would have been. 🤔

Folks in other states would be on 20 as well

[void iris]

I saw your channel 51 long fast message

I also saw replies to you @tired urchin

[prisma saddle]

Any of you guys use https://www.ve2dbe.com/rmonline_s.asp

and happen to have all routers/repeaters in ?

[prisma saddle]

nvm i got it, although would be cool to have antenna info for what they are using.

[leaden crow]

If this is a public tool, most people are going to be hesitant putting their not 100% legit placed nodes on there. Even fuzzing the location, it's still not a good idea.

[tired urchin]

I changed to 20 while out of state and swapped back to 51 as I flew into Utah valley. 🙂

[prisma saddle]

hey dude. no hello from your bot. what hackerspace channel? @real cedar

[real cedar]

How to kill LongFast 51 in one fell swoop for 5 minutes.
Set a meshing around bot to send everyone QRZs and forget it doesn't have the delay in the config

[prisma saddle]

LOL

[real cedar]

63... 7x retries all at once 😭

[prisma saddle]

well done

[real cedar]

Sorry about that haha. It's fine now. Yeah I think it's only for nodes who have the DC801 channel who are part of the local hackerspace

I should put a bot on longfast

[leaden crow]

It made my T1000E chime non-stop. haha

[prisma saddle]

ha ha.

[main stag]

I love this spot. One of my favorite places on the crest. The other is after you head north toward millcreek and pop out behind square top.

[real cedar]

Sorry 🤣

We must have a hidden node problem. I received 5 of my messages as duplicates haha

[prisma saddle]

how do root them out?

[real cedar]

I mean there's not much you can do. When we say hidden node problem we mean the engineering problem in telecommunications which is what I should have clarified

https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/collision-avoidance-in-wireless-networks/

You have two types of problems. The exposed node problem and the hidden node problem

[leaden crow]

I love this way down from right after the drop in to millcreek. Not a lot of people take this route.
https://www.mtbproject.com/trail/7070387/mill-creek-meadows

[real cedar]

They have to do with collisions @prisma saddle

The same thing occurred on shared bus Ethernet before the days of twisted pair

[prisma saddle]

ah ok. ya coax. i recall that. bnc.

[leaden crow]

Little Water Peak in this trail map might be another decent candidate for a node. That one would be some bushwhacking off the trail to get to though.

[prisma saddle]

ya i recall doing lan parties on it playing quake.

[main stag]

That’s awesome. I’m not a biker just a crazy runner, and haven’t taken that way down before. I’ve hunted in that bowl though. I’ll have to check out that cutoff.

[real cedar]

Lmao yeah similar problem

[leaden crow]

It's beautiful, but probably not very fun on foot. it's steep and loose. I see a ton of deer on that segment though, probably because way less traffic.

[tired urchin]

So I'm kid of wondering now, when the crew requires us to put our "cellular devices" on airplane mode, does that include Lora/meshtastic radios? And how is that different than a 2.4ghz wifi radio that is allowed in flight for use with the in-flight entertainment system? How is a frs/gmrs system different than a cell, technically? Where does 900mhz fall on the FAA's okay to use list?

[void iris]

There's a 900 MHz wifi standard now too. So you were just using wifi \s

[real cedar]

915 does interfere with harmonically with transponders so it's something to keep in mind. I wouldn't as a precaution but you aren't going to take down the airplane by broadcasting with lora haha

You could interfere with the transponder which would put you on the radar VERY quickly

[real cedar]

To be a bit more... Clear. A 915 MHz LoRa transmitter, even within FCC legal power limits (1 watt conducted, 4 watts EIRP (36dB)), could interfere with aircraft systems when used aboard an aircraft due to its proximity to sensitive avionics, the reflective cabin environment, and potential spurious emissions or harmonics encroaching on aviation bands (e.g., DME at 960–1215 MHz). Aviation transponders have EXTREMELY sensitive front ends due to needing to broadcast and receive from potentially BLOS but mostly LOS over 1000s of miles of salt water (capacitive channel interference). In addition to receiver desensitization you can get intermodulation and near-field coupling. Aircraft systems are designed for EMC and have mitigations in place but they aren't immune to onboard RF sources, especially untested devices like LoRa transmitters. They might be certified with the FCC but I highly doubt Boeing nor Airbus had lora as part of their risk mitigation plans and acceptance testing lol.

Source: I designed military long distance transponder radios in my career lol

[void iris]

How would you get 960-1215 from a 915 device? Mixing with onboard clock signals/intermediate frequencies?

[real cedar]

All RF device produce something called Harmonics. And they occur at specific and modelable frequencies. One sec let me find a good diagram. It's really best shown visually and I actually like to nerd out about this when someone asks 😂 cuz it's so so rare that people want to know what actually makes the magic happen

[real cedar]

This ones suitably generic

Essentially at multiples of your frequency in series and with offsets due to spurious emissions you can and will interfere. No device doesn't produce these

[void iris]

Got it. A 50MHz processor clock signal could mix with the Lora fundimental at 930 and produce ~980

[real cedar]

That too but usually that's the easy part. You can filter that out with a good design of the electronics to which these are not 🤣 designed with that in mind. Some are. The rak's, station series from B&Q and the E modules (under the shield only) have all that decoupling and common mod shunts and everything you need to cut that out

But the transmitter itself and the LOs and the IF and stuff and all those parts of the chain regardless of anything else on the board. ALWAYS produce these harmonics and spurs so it doesn't matter if a processor clock mixed or not. It's inherent to the radios themselves

There's a good example

There's entire noise models for these. It's all part of FCC certification and so on. It takes an anechoic chamber to get meaningful data and a diverse bit of metrology equipment

If you want an extra deep dive on the Intersymbol Interference or ISI lora creates. I'm on the IEEE standards board and can probably obtain this paper for you
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8861956

TLDR when you broadcast.. ALWAYS FILTER. There's a reason everything non consumer grade has them. You can very much cut down on the noise and interference you create just as much ad you reduce hearing others

If you were to remove the SAW filters from your lora devices and watch them on a wideband spectrum analyzer you'd be shocked at just how far and wide on the spectrum you'd broadcast meaningful power or cause harmonic and spurious interference

Actually, if you really want to know something interesting, how we find the noisy transmitters from the non-noisey transmitters is that we don't actually listen to the primary or fundamental frequency. We know which harmonics from our models that would likely be noisy. And we actually listen to those and we flip-flop between them as we direction bind and we're able to pinpoint those transmitters with centimeter accuracy. We don't even need to triangulate. The very fact that you broadcast is enough. If you've ever done a fox hunt, you probably understand these principles.

[void iris]

Will the sharp corner on the Lora chirp create a lot of noise? It's not like AM where that full spectrum noise will be directly mixed. It's more of an OOK-like modulation.

If that makes any sense

[real cedar]

Anytime you increase the sharpness or rollover of a signal, you will increase the potential amount of spurious interference with the harmonics that you can create on the edges of those frequencies. So where your cutoff is on both sides left and right of the primary frequency also will have harmonics as you increase the sharpness of the rolloff.

I'll make a non-Lora example.

Two of them actually. So the weather radar image is an example of someone simply just putting high gain antennas on his router and removing the filter so that he could get maximum power out of the RF front end. Well, that's how far it broadcasts and we don't need anything to pinpoint you down to your apartment within centimeter accuracy. And if you piss off the radar operator enough, all he has to do is make one call 🤣 So for those running super high gain antennas on their Wi-Fi devices, you probably shouldn't be doing that. It's way too easy for that to interfere with other things.

The other example is an example of a laptop where somebody had modified the device and did not realize they had removed some of the filtering capacitors that stopped it from interfering with nearby police bands.

Once again, they found this person in a mall down to centimeter accuracy all because of the spurious emissions.

Shared Spectrum, we are all in this together intensifies haha 😂

[void iris]

What is the X axis on this graph?

[real cedar]

Fundamental Frequency Harmonic Number

Those 1 2 3 4*fundamentals

Shows it pretty clearly huh?

Anyways there's no need to panic and run out and buy turbo huge filters and stuff. Your devices are fine when they are used where intended haha.

But a good gpio labs cavity filter on the front end will increased your RX sensitivity with a high gain antenna significantly

[void iris]

I would assume removing the filtering would also possibly reduce power on the fundamental in that case because immense bandwidth that he is now amplifying

depending on where the filter was in the chain

[real cedar]

Precisely. You will get destructive interference from the spurs and actually harm your output more than do any good

LOOKING AT YOU HELIUM 🤣

Helium miners make me mad not because they are mining. It's the whole let's broadcast 4 watts conducted cuz we don't understand what EIRP is and on top of that let's remove the SAWs and filtering and put them extra extra high

^ this is why we have the FCC

Not because of normal people like me and you may be taking a device out of its scope and, you know, doing something in the near neighborhood of potentially violating laws. No, we have it because of those idiots. Haha

[vital hemlock]

https://youtu.be/JYAq-7sOzXQ?si=BAiunwmOP9SdxbyV

One of my favorite college humor vids 😆

[real cedar]

Lmfao a Mesh-tastic soon (TM)

[prisma saddle]

new nodes. solar? lol.

nice names.

[tired urchin]

@real cedar that was an incredibly detailed and thorough response. I'm definitely a RF novice so that's going to take a little while to digest. Thank you.

Also:
https://youtu.be/gHwriLZJdB0

[white field]

It’s happening

Here I go again scrambling another talus field after the logging road ends

[white field]

We really need filters on Potm and npr.

I’m having to relay thru onaqui

I should have direct Los to Potm

[prisma saddle]

How does the filter work? It uses the closest or what?

[vital hemlock]

https://www.everythingrf.com/community/what-is-a-saw-filter

[white field]

Anyway, link is ultra reliable to skyline thru onaqui

Huzzzah

Mesh hull is huge now

[prisma saddle]

i’m not seeing them yet. well in the map that is. i see them in the node list.

[white field]

Slow updates

12 hrs on location for my routers

[prisma saddle]

cool.

[vital hemlock]

Nice work @white field !

[real cedar]

😂 I hate to say it but we are gonna need to move up the schedule on MF or SF

I kinda figured AUR would give me solid stats. We are easily upon just sending messages hitting that 33% drop limit

Pretty routinely haha

[vital hemlock]

Agreed, I've seen the same. At 25% some things start throttling back if I recall.

I'm going to check my node configs to make sure none of them are chatting too much either

[real cedar]

I was hoping we could test with POTM and AUR but idk if the person who owns POTM is active?

[vital hemlock]

He's here occasionally

[real cedar]

I'm working on bumping mine back except for weather telemetry which honestly is one packet every 30 mins

[real cedar]

I wonder if offsetting all our intervals would change things but that's too much coordination for my head 😂

It's probably way easier to just move up to the next level and I think we should just try short fast. The developers have a point. It's only what? Five decibel milliwatts?

Considering I have medium strength signal to every router from up north for the most part, I think that we definitely have the link budget for it.

Even with filters and high gain antennas and the modifications we made that might increase insertion loss.

I'm ready to do it before I put another router down, but I just need the okay from someone who's willing to test.

If that test goes well, we should just convert all the routers at once. and tell people to hop on.

[vital hemlock]

MF didnt work for a lot of folks. We have better coverage now, we could try it again.

[real cedar]

I'm suspecting those folks were kind of close to I-15 and they were in the bowl in the city?

I kind of figured out what's going on there. There's an extremely high concentration of LTE towers up and down that area and it's kind of in a low spot that is semi-abstructed by nearby structures to all of the other routers.

There's sadly not much we can do for those folks other than maybe somebody having a strategically placed client.

[leaden crow]

Good idea, I'll probably turn down mine too.

Anyone running meshtasicd; I have this script mlog_stats.sh that will tell you what nodes are most chatty (based on /var/log/meshtastic.json
https://github.com/dagronslayer/meshtastic-bash-scripts

[real cedar]

It's probably mine as I'm running tests, but I'm dialing them back slowly for the ones that have gotten into their permanent spot.

But also realize we've had 17 new nodes come online and none of them are routers.

[leaden crow]

I'm not trying to name and shame, but it's nice to know as we hit bottlenecks.

[vital hemlock]

We have to remove shame from it, if it's mine I want to know

[real cedar]

I'm just thinking from the perspective of me going up and putting something somewhere on promontory point, it would be nice if I could just go up there once. So if we could do the move earlier, that would help me. I'm not saying we have to do it that way but that ones remote and I don't want to make the trips often haha

[leaden crow]

I encourage testing, but I also want to know someone is testing for a legitimate reason and not flooding our mesh inadvertently

[vital hemlock]

I can see my bp_rpi is sending location too often, fixing it now

[real cedar]

I'm pre-shaming myself. Did you just assume I didn't want to be shamed 😂🤣

[real cedar]

Honestly, I looked at the interval suggestions online, and most of the defaults are good, but for location and weather telemetry. The guidance is basically do not send more often than 1800 seconds. And that's it.

Which kind of sucks because I was hoping to have like a weather update every five to ten minutes, but I can understand that pummeling a large network that needs to rebroadcast 😂

[leaden crow]

I don't see any major offenders in my last 5,000 lines of logs.
bp# - 617
bp! - 591
D801 - 301
MM - 222
bp1 - 215
R01 - 178
jfi1 - 173
dsrv - 172
RxBs - 164
dsr2 - 163
PERU - 154
dsr1 - 153
AUR - 147
b33f - 139
ACER - 128
JALL - 111
JALR - 108
C6H - 106
rdge - 98
RxTr - 89
bits - 89
Tim - 79
NPR - 78
POTM - 71
C6N - 62
ACEL - 61
3648 - 61
hint - 44
68f4 - 38
ACEM - 36
38fb - 36
dsr3 - 34
C6A - 30
VV - 15
🦅 - 14
MMr - 8
C6U - 8
BCav - 8
a1bc - 8
dp1 - 6
3805 - 6
lyre - 5

Those numbers totally reasonable compared to some of my and C6's past testing 😁

[real cedar]

ROFL D801 DDOSin like its name sake

[vital hemlock]

I have sent a "lot" of traceroutes, so I am not surprised. Fixing the unnecessary broadcasts!

[real cedar]

I've pounded put admin packets a lot lately too

[leaden crow]

honestly, I think testing is great unless we reach some point messages are getting dropped. Our mesh has been working better than ever.

[vital hemlock]

moving all my node info and location broadcasts on stationary nodes to 10800 seconds

[real cedar]

Same. I am actually curious to see how much further LF51 will go even if it breaks. I do want to switch though. Very soon. I want to see what happens when POTM, Skyline, AUR and Black Mountain all are Router_Late Short Fast with the higher routers being routers. Morbidly curious haha

The down time is nice though. I'm fixing my mini bike and Stage 4 modifying it. It's gonna be stupid on the trails

Should allow me to deploy nodes rapidly

To ANYWHERE 🤣

[leaden crow]

dsr1 and dsr2 are fixed position, so I'm going to set position.position_broadcast_secs 86400

[vital hemlock]

Yeah, I had store and forward, and neighbor info on for bp! and it doesnt need either. They are off now

I'd assume store and forward should be off at this point, for most radios. And neighbor info really only matters for routers, any mobile node should have that off

mine are fixed, they should be quieter now 😄

[real cedar]

Yes. That's what I'm doing essentially. Lmk if you see too much. AUR is already configured for 86400 for location broadcast

[real cedar]

You know what. We should make a simple.. No JavaScript page that allows anyone on any device to view all our best guidances

That way we can maybe pin it here. Hand it out. Have directions. Etc. Kinda like Puget mesh

@leaden crow @vital hemlock

If you turn smart broadcast on for a stationary node with GPS DISABLED and a fixed location entered it will quite literally never send another location packet unless requested

I think that's pretty ideal tbch

Here let me screenshot my settings

[leaden crow]

I should be good, I have positionBroadcastSmartEnabled: true

[real cedar]

Yup

It works brilliantly. It only sends with node info or when it receives a request pos

After the first time. No point right? Haha

Hey

Neighbor info

ONLY stationary nodes right?

Only for routers and stationary clients that can help build a map?

[vital hemlock]

Unless routing changes come, yes

The trouble is human impulse, we all want to see that map with our names on it 😄

I got that meshview server running, if anyone has a new node come online and anyone nodeinfo's it, or positions it, then it will populate

https://mesh.thebadplace.org/map

U: slcmesh
P: slcmesh

[leaden crow]

Jacob must be doing some testing. Onaqui is getting hammered
Meshtastic 38fb │ 37.14%

[vital hemlock]

so that will solve that, folks will see themselves and feel cool

[real cedar]

Nah I'm completely content being deleted from the map. I literally have Umbriel set to client hidden and will do that for my mobile nodes in general

I'm just trying to figure out how much diagnostic data we want available for routers and infra nodes

[vital hemlock]

client_hidden does still broadcast if I recall. I "believe" client mute is quieter. We should ask a dev

[leaden crow]

My wife reminds me how uncool I am every time she sees me working on a meshtastic project.

[real cedar]

ROFL Nah I was seeing that the moment I put AUR online after moving the node. It's wild how much changing a position and config slams things

[vital hemlock]

I think you're cool man, dont listen to that noise

[real cedar]

No client hidden doesn't broadcast at all. It sets every broadcast to the highest 32 bit integer supported

And it will not rebroadcast or contribute to the mesh coverage

Its sole purpose is to be as quiet as possible and broadcast only when the user needs to

[vital hemlock]

it says that it does on the meshtastic docs page

confusing

[real cedar]

https://meshtastic.org/docs/configuration/radio/device/

Device that only broadcasts as needed for stealth or power savings.

So no telemetry. No location. Node-info every 429573648 seconds or whatever

[vital hemlock]

I wish they had a waterfall breakdown of how those roles change settings

[real cedar]

Its the mode I'll be using for the drone.

As quiet as possible. Talk when interrogated otherwise silent

[vital hemlock]

afk a few, need beer. It's that kind of day

https://tenor.com/view/will-ferrell-old-milwaukee-beer-drink-party-gif-22890849

[real cedar]

Same tbch

Probably gonna run to the Mav on bike

@vital hemlock when you get back do we have to put anything here for your server?

[white field]

I was just taking a shower

Not me

So the thing is onaqui is now tied into Provo

Via boulter peak

It might be causing circular traffic flow 😩

[real cedar]

Let's see what happens when I trace route into the bowl from roy

[white field]

I might put onaqui in client mode

[real cedar]

Router_Late

[white field]

Ah gotcha

[real cedar]

Too high to be a client. Still useful

[white field]

Yup

[real cedar]

But if you'd like to deprioritize it a bit to the higher routers

Router_Late

[white field]

I mean it’s high, just more of a bridge for most traffic zones

Client mode practically means “router mid” for it

Since it always rebroadcasts around the time other clients would

Since it seems to see so few other nodes directly

[leaden crow]

What is the boulter peak node named? I don't think I'm seeing it yet.

[real cedar]

Yeah that's the perfect mode for it

"Infrastructure node that always rebroadcasts packets once but only after all other modes, ensuring additional coverage for local clusters. Visible in Nodes list. Ideal for covering dead spots or ensuring reliability for a cluster of nodes where placement doesn’t benefit the broader mesh. Device is shown in topology."

[real cedar]

Yeah I'm not either

[white field]

Wait

Fuck onaqui firmware can’t router late

It’s too old

[real cedar]

😭😭

Client then

[white field]

Yeah gonna swap it in a few min

[real cedar]

2.6.X definitely a solid firmware

[white field]

Yeah, boulter is on 2.6

Skyline is so far away it’s irrelevant

[real cedar]

😂 really? Can Boulter see skyline though or just onaqui?

Does it have a gigantic rod on it?

[white field]

Boulter can see skyline. I think onaqui is a botched placement.

Nah, its another stealth mode 5dbi Alpha on a RAK Solar module

okay, I'm trying to set onaqui to client now

lol, this could take a moment with the mesh traffic we have been chatting about. 😂

[real cedar]

Oh wow
@leaden crow @white field @vital hemlock

All your changes had an immediate effect

Traffic plummeted steadily and still is

[white field]

its also possible its because I rebooted onaqui a bunch of times. CLI is being annoying

[white field]

Okay, I'm gonna attempt to shift it to client again soon

I'm giving up for the moment, I think a shared secret from the admin tooling got mucked up

couldn't get the updates to take from the node I controlled it from last time

If its a serious problem, I can drive into range of my string of nodes to fix them tomorrow.

TBH, I really want to just place one on Black Mountain and then go off grid. 😄

or at least make this chain of nodes be independently reliable to my house

then NPR can do what it will with the signal

moving onaqui to black peak might be my ideal.

[vital hemlock]

@real cedar if anyone wants the creds to my mqtt server I’m glad to supply them, but I don’t want to post them here. Just DM me

In order to keep it simple I have just one shared cred. Unless your radio knows the key to the channel the payloads are encrypted so I feel like it didnt need to be more secure for now

[white field]

oooooof

I'm pretty sure onaqui might be stuck after it lost its name

[vital hemlock]

That sucks. And it also matches what I've observed

[white field]

yeah, its stuck in router mode until I hike up to change it.

Maybe I'll rent an ATV or do a mega vert MTB day

Trying one last idea

removing the node from my remote's db to see if that restores some aspect

[main stag]

Mine laughs and asks if I'm talking to the radio nerds.

[real cedar]

Throw them in my DMs

[real cedar]

I don't have a wife but the girls I like to date won't care and if they do they will care purely from the backcountry utility perspective or the how can I talk secretly in the city perspective 😂

There's a way to be very hidden with a meshtastic node

You set to Client Hidden.. Disable all rebroadcasts.. And decode known_only haha. Then talk to each other via one room you make in a slot higher than 2.

People won't see your node info if at all except once. And they won't see you alive or metrics. You won't ever rebroadcast their packets and you'll never send telemetry on that channel except upon request.

They might see your packets from time to time and request node info the first time only.. But that's really all. Honestly once a network is fully established its probably how I'll role

Pun not intended but now welcomed

Actually. Known_Only ignores other nodes request for nodeinfo unless in a known channel non 0 index channel. Yeah that would be so silent you'd only ever see the trailing trailing 4 of the node.. Not even its name would register looking at the docs

I'll keep a public node for shenanigans and admin and all that stuff. Probably umbriel. The one I talk on now.

[real cedar]

You know what sucks? I'm starting to have communication issues as it was my only way to get into the valley. And NPR is blinded because I happen to be right in the line of sight of Farnsworth. So there's just so much noise. It's never gonna hear me. So hopefully AUR takes up the task, but we will see.

The irony, I can't take the 30 mile jump, but I sure as fuck can take the damn 108 mile jump. 🤣

[vital hemlock]

It says I can’t message you unless we’re friends, and you aren’t accepted friends at the time. 🫡

[prisma saddle]

lol i bet freq slot 20 / defaults there all double/triple the number.s.

[prisma saddle]

i like that. for us newbies and all. even a requirement to be on the mesh to keep it stable.

[prisma saddle]

mine started calling me a meshhead. all i’ve done the last 2 weeks.

[real cedar]

Lmfao try now

[real cedar]

I'll think about it. I have a home lab. I could host it but I'm not exactly down for it to be tied to my URL so I'll probably just make a lightweight linode

But I need some help from others and some ideas of what to put together

[prisma saddle]

i don’t have the meshtastic know how you all do but i could help with the site. have a homelab also.

got bored over covid 🙂

[real cedar]

Please no giant web frameworks honestly a markdown to HTML preprocessor program in any language with a diverse set of templates is my jam

I don't do javascript. It's too annoying and too full of flaws And far to heavy for the need

[prisma saddle]

static html/css lol.

[real cedar]

That is the way

[prisma saddle]

can go a long way.

[real cedar]

I accept Php but it's the devil you know

[prisma saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/book-of-boba-fett-the-mandalorian-this-is-the-way-the-book-of-boba-fett-mandalorian-gif-24825263

[real cedar]

So I've thought of a monstrosity

the directional omni-directional tri-radio BBS Relay

So here’s the concept. You have two radios that are dedicated to backhaul with a directional, yaggi antenna or LOG PERIODIC antenna. Those radios’ purposes are get the signal as far in one direction as humanly possible to get it centrally located into the mesh on a separate frequency. Then a high gain rural back country omnidirectional antenna on the central radio that will be on the frequency of the local mesh

Everyone has one large BBS that they are a part of and the local BBS can stay regional. All at the same time.

I so badly want to see if that could connect huge meshes into an intermountain mesh

[prisma saddle]

haven’t gotten back either my dad in grantsville yet to see how things work there with him. or my bro in lehi. but we could work something out there router wise if/ when needed. (grantsville)

[real cedar]

Imagine short fast BBS send mesh to San Diego lol

Bet it could be done

BET

[prisma saddle]

lol. nice

[real cedar]

I'm tempted to build it

[prisma saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/how-i-met-your-mother-himym-barney-stinson-neil-patrick-harris-challenge-accepted-gif-4594551

[real cedar]

I need a lower power SBC

I want it to be Linux native but I don't want to build images

F that noise I'm sorry

Which makes the luck fox a harder sell but I do like it

3 ebyte hats would be needed for it

Two log periodic antennas with filters

One 10 dBi omni

8 21700s in parallel 🤣🙏

30W solar panel

[prisma saddle]

hmm think you need more. lol.

[real cedar]

Nah

[prisma saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/more-power-home-improvement-tim-gif-22738460

[real cedar]

It needs storm reserve that's it

[prisma saddle]

was more of a joke. :).

[real cedar]

😂 I know. But you made me think do I have a justification for less?

Its a non essential node to the local meshes. If they temporarily lose their interlink in a blizzard it's not gonna be as big of a problem as losing a relatively local router for local comms

I bet I could motivate the hackerspaces in each major city along the interstate to do something haha

Hold my beer imma go ask some forum buddies for help on the concept

[prisma saddle]

i think you need 9. 8 won’t be enough. lol. ya.

[real cedar]

Okay I'll bite. Why 9

[prisma saddle]

oh i dunno. 🤷 for “science”. sorry joking . again. i’ll shut it. ha ha.

is there a need for a route above herriman? or is potm and npr enough.

[real cedar]

The bowl is plenty covered

There is no need for anything in the core of the valley. It's the edges and the firmware and other replacements that have to happen

If you want to help with that. There are an identified set of locations one could contribute a router to

Usually I'd only ask someone if it's helping them

Most of mine are going to jet deep out into the desert and over to nevada

As well as punch north to logan

Ogdens gonna be dicey. I'm worried on LF. We will see. I'll put the promontory node up. Could get noisey for a minute when I do haha. I know there are at least 7 island nodes up that way. Caught them while in the car

Fixing the minibike this weekend

[pseudo kestrel]

the IAQ coming off of AUR is somewhat concerning 😬

[real cedar]

Its quite normal for our area

AQ goes down at night too

So it's at its worst in the morning.

Its also on an indoor scale

You'll need to scale it a bit for outdoor haha

Also I mean. If you kept walking straight along the ridge you'd fall into an asphalt plant so that might have a bit to do with it too haha

[real cedar]

@leaden crow do the E hat modules come in different variants that have different serial addresses? I'm asking cuz I want to make a tri radio and control it with one nrf52

That or an esp. I'd just need to up the batteries

[real cedar]

It would be so nice to use one of these to power nodes
https://ambiq.com/apollo4-blue/

Stupidly low power. Two banks of RAM. Man maybe I should put the effort in and start spinning firmware for it and buy an eval board.

[pseudo kestrel]

Is it still still the pm2.5 that it's measuring?

[vital hemlock]

I can just add a page to the meshview site I have now.

@real cedar if feels like we could have a single system each that holds a bbs with two radios. When you talk to it over LF or MF it's the direct message, but we have a SF "sync" network here in the valley. That way the BBS can sync without adding noise on the main channel.

Just a thought

iterative approach, eat the elephant one bite at a time

[prisma saddle]

well mega rain. let’s see how waterproof my nodes are.

[real cedar]

Yes and lower

[prisma saddle]

well i can still ping them.. so guess all is good

[real cedar]

I looked into BBS's and its seems if you're going to relay the sweet spot is start at the core of the network and go out to a really good routing spot that's 5 hops away and place a BBS relay.. At least from what I'm reading. Uncharted territory

It could by pass the 7 hop problem though think about it. You send a message on the SF BBS.. It relays it and updates the core node. A node 10 hops away from you but 5 from the BBS gets the update despite being too far for you to reach

Would it work?

[vital hemlock]

The math checks out

[real cedar]

It's too bad femto foxs are sold out. They truly are the best node for the task

I'm really thinking about making promontory point a femto fox but securing and locking it down

Problem is I really don't like making BBS nodes be remote. That runs the risk of the BBS being exposed if captured haha

[real cedar]

We should try it.. BBS node at prom point. BBS node in the core of SLC?

Someone in tremonton then posts. See if someone in the skyline area can see it

Would be a pretty solid first test

[prisma saddle]

hmm looks like i need to adjust some settings.

[real cedar]

Dude I was up Butterfield canyon. The winds are horrible on the ridge lines rn. Easily hurricane force. Good luck to the nodes on ridges 😂🙏

[real cedar]

I plan intervals pretty simply around what is the least talky but still utilitarian setting when it comes to telemetry

How often do I need a battery update? Probably not once every 30 minutes. Maybe once every 5-8 hrs..

For me neighbor info, and telemetry device metrics are all 14400, Weather on routers is set to 1800. Nodeinfo 86400. I find I get more acks that way too

Maybe it's the less busy device?

[prisma saddle]

ha seeing that it gets down to like 92-94% at night. i think im safe lessening that.

ok cool i’ll look into all that. thank you sir.

[real cedar]

I'll make an exception like if a router had weather station on it I'll send device metrics at the same interval. If it's going to be talking might as well add the little extra in but nothing big like neighbor info or nodeinfo do I bother sending. Neighbor info I set to 5-6 hrs.. Node info. Basically 24 hrs no matter the device unless client hidden. The default behavior of the meshtastic node is when it sees a new node it will request the node information anyways so sending it often only speeds discovery which I have little care for after the first 3 to 5 hrs

I hope that makes sense

I can also you know reboot a device 😂 and that causes it to broadcast node info if someone's not seeing me

[prisma saddle]

dang android only neighbors stuff. so annoying. have to use 2 diff devices. normally i’m iphone only.

[real cedar]

So with that I almost kinda want to go dark and set it to 4294967295 😂

[real cedar]

Or just set it via the commandline on a pc

Via the admin channel keys

[prisma saddle]

oh. never tried that.

[real cedar]

With the node connected to your PC 's public key in all the remote nodes haha

[prisma saddle]

oh with meshtastic cli. admin channel?

didn’t know i could do that on pc.

nice.

okay with that romero.

tomorrow

[vital hemlock]

This is how I noticed some of my nodes were configured wrong. It’s a nice-to-have

[prisma saddle]

i’d love like what @real cedar was talking about. a how to guide on best settings for a healthy mesh. per each role type.

[vital hemlock]

I think I can just add a page to this meshview site with some basics and a few screenshots.

I’ll see if @main stag can help, he’s smarter than me. 😆

[prisma saddle]

love the new mesh view site.

good job

[main stag]

Yeah I bet that would be pretty easy

[vital hemlock]

Not my work, just hosting it. I am doing a little editing on it though. It’s slick

[prisma saddle]

was thinking of messing with that but never mind since you did.

cool. from home ?

[main stag]

Residential context we like to say.

[vital hemlock]

Exactly 😆

[real cedar]

I'd actually like to create profiles.. Discuss thing in depth for those who want to know more etc

[vital hemlock]

I’ll multisite with Nate

[prisma saddle]

ok discussing this mesh with my lehi bro. if i recall only needed setting change was freq slot 51 right?

and changing to correct role.

[real cedar]

Yes. Client, frequency slot 51. If I was in lehi I'd set my node hop limit to 7

Stuff gets weird at the edge

[prisma saddle]

ok cool he is updating settings now.

thanks.

[real cedar]

He should see Point of the mountain quite quickly

Then AUR nearly next and NPR

[prisma saddle]

cool.

[real cedar]

And BCP

[prisma saddle]

had him wipe his nodedb too

[prisma saddle]

he is right near thanksgiving point. weird can’t see him yet. hmm.

he sees my t1000e. weird.

but that’s it.

guess more time.

[white field]

Potm was very unreliable for me recently

[prisma saddle]

Hm ya i still cant see him, was hoping it was just a node info broadcast he missed. guess will check his settings later.. have him drive around.

[leaden crow]

I'll run some traceroutes on it. Usually I have pretty reliable direct connection to POTM.

[prisma saddle]

Hmm so his firmware is 2.5.2 running a t-1000-e and rak4631

firmware cause it? looks like on his t-1000e he can see me and the rest. but I cant see him. or his messages the rak4631 cant see anything but his 1000e

going to have him update. and see what happens

[leaden crow]

This is pretty common problem. Seeing nodes / messages from other nodes with higher broadcast strength / position, but not being able to get anything out. He probably needs a roof node. Easy way to check is to go for a walk to a high spot in neighborhood with clear LoS to POTM and see if traceroutes start returning.

[prisma saddle]

so that firmware wont matter then

[white field]

Yeah, as soon as I got an equivalent "roof node" with direct LOS to NPR my systems finally came online.

Untill that point I would only have random RX from the mesh and never any ACKs.

so, what do we think about Onaqui being permanently bugged into router mode?

Should I go hiking and replace it with a ROUTER_LATE node?

I'm trying to figure out what my best options are for reducing issues with NPR since it's inability to RX messages from onaqui is making it impossible for me to receive data from Skyline solar:4

Tho maybe I'll keep it up if I figure out an alt placement like Black Peak that can link my house to boulter peak.

[prisma saddle]

Thoughts of how long of a coax could be run from a rak4631 to alfa antenna?

before an amp is needed ?

[leaden crow]

Don't. It way better to run a long power cable. Especially with low power transceivers, you lose way too much with a cable.

If you have to use cable, get LMR-400, but it's expensive and difficult to work with.

[white field]

There's math on the cables power loss and its easy to do.

Each cable has a rating for dbi loss rate per meter and you can do the math.

[prisma saddle]

ya we messing with just getting his node up higher. dealing with HOA

[white field]

How far from the node are you needing?

depending on the length, you'll want a different rating for the cables

[prisma saddle]

prob like 10-15 feet.. so prob not fesable.. going to have him hang one out his upstairs windoe to see

[white field]

LMR-200 sounds like it would be a good option based on these results.

Tho, to be honest if you're going from "no LOS" to "has LOS" literally anything will be a massive improvement.

[prisma saddle]

ya. true

thanks for that

[white field]

Don't thank me, thank chatGPT and me googling this 6 months ago. 😂

[leaden crow]

So far it's been perfect responses for me from POTM today.

Successful traces: 15
Failed traces: 0
100% Success
Outbound: 0dB mean SNR from 15 recorded values
Inbound: -9.10dB mean SNR from 15 recorded values

It's on old firmware, so it doesn't return SNR.

[prisma saddle]

ok thanks for testing. same here with me. was getting traces with no issues. so his node is just too low.. working on that

[real cedar]

@leaden crow
You know what dude get that ebyte hat ready. I have the perfect batteries for RPI z 2w setups. But I've only got enough for 3. This is going to be very verbose but I made careful calculations. I have a Worst-case storm of a 3-day blizzard (97.2 Wh) being survivable, with ~17.8 Wh (~13 hours) remaining at –40°C. A 4-day storm (129.6 Wh) exceeds capacity, but such events are rare, and partial insolation (e.g., 1 hour/day) extends runtime. The 30 W Newpowa monocrystalline panel sustains a 1S2P LTO 50 Ah battery pack (115 Wh = 50 Ah × 2.3 V) powering a Raspberry Pi Zero 2W and Ebyte E22 module (1.35 W total, 32.4 Wh/day = 1.35 W × 24 h) at Promontory Point, Utah. In summer, 6.5 peak sun hours yield 195 Wh/day (30 W × 6.5 h), or 166.7 Wh/day after 95% MPPT and 90% charging efficiencies (195 × 0.95 × 0.9), with a surplus of 134.3 Wh/day (166.7 – 32.4), charging the battery in ~16.5 hours (115 ÷ 166.7 × 24). In winter, 3.5 hours at –10°C (14% efficiency boost: 30 W × 1.14 = 34.2 W) yield 119.7 Wh/day (34.2 × 3.5), or 102.6 Wh/day after efficiencies (119.7 × 0.95 × 0.9), with a 70.2 Wh/day surplus (102.6 – 32.4), charging in ~1.1 days (115 ÷ 102.6). So all in all. In one day of full sun it's juiced up. 2 its guaranteed. 3 days of partial insolation=1 day full. So I think this will work or we will lose an RPI zero 2w. Thoughts?

Those giant LTOs. 🤣 my drunk purchase became useful

The little rpz that could about to spend the rest of its life on a mountain I may not bother recovering that node again haha

[leaden crow]

Sounds good, you got a charge controller for those?

[real cedar]

🤣 no. I've got a buck converter with precise control LMFAO

Programmable

[leaden crow]

Good enough

[real cedar]

Set it to 2.65 and forget haha

Its a little DROK

Imma see if I can get one working tonight without a hat

[real cedar]

@leaden crow

Its this

[prisma saddle]

any plans for putting a router in utah county? lake mountain hp. or anything on top of timp. out in lehi right now near the lake.

think potm might still hit. but need height too.

[real cedar]

There exists Lake Mountain Router but it's on channel 45

And we do not know who owns it

[prisma saddle]

oh dang. let’s go find it. :).

[real cedar]

NPR should hit a good portion of Utah county

[real cedar]

Why? Lol

[prisma saddle]

for fun. geocaching.

i dunno. lol.

[real cedar]

I mean it's somewhere up there. IDK. The southern part of the mesh isn't really my domain

I'm concerned with Northern and west

Jacob and Gdane and a couple others are down south

I think they had some plans you might be able to help with

[prisma saddle]

ya just working to get all family connected. and that’s part of it.

[real cedar]

Actually @void iris hey.. Your down that way right? Any plans to colonize lake mountain alongside the CH 45 router?

[real cedar]

If you do please make it a Router_Late

Its relatively low like POTM and serves to connect localized communities to a greater mesh.

I'm going to convert AUR to Router_Late the moment NPR is ready to change over because if I do it now dumb things will happen

[prisma saddle]

does late lower it’s routing priority? not read up on the differences.

ah ok.

[real cedar]

So essentially it makes it talk second in terms of rebroadcasting when it comes to the router and client hierarchy.

So what will happen is all the devices will be waiting to rebroadcast until it's clear. Rouders are going to talk first. When that's done and at the end of the time period of routers normally talking, then the router late will kick in and rebroadcast. And then after that, clients and client mute.

It's not really like priority. It's not like quality of service. It's not exactly as I describe it, but essentially it's a little bit of wiggling of the time windows so that it's kind of deprioritized.

I'll put it to you this way. If a router late hears a router broadcasting, it will not broadcast. If it has heard all of the broadcasts from the routers and it's going to rebroadcast something, then it rebroadcasts ahead of the client.

At the end of the day, we will see if it helps reduce collisions. Who knows? That's the fun part.

[prisma saddle]

yup. test till it works. 🙂

[real cedar]

I was up Butterfield canyon yesterday

NPR is really blind to anything up until about that new highway

Its pretty bad haha

I'm glad AUR and POTM are both up

Its making me accept that maybe there should be 4 routers. It sounds counter productive but its not be zuse short fast will be so much worse

You make Olympus and Nelson Routers. Then AUR and POTM router_late and that would yield a perfect ring of coverage

Its probably the only way. I'll go climb Olympus with gear when there's not a lightning storm around

[prisma saddle]

ha ha good call.

[real cedar]

Plus for those interested in the cottonwoods and back country there's your bridge

To get back there

[prisma saddle]

yup true.

[real cedar]

Gonna go find me a RAK. I'm not doing a 30 dBm. Probably an alpha antenna due to its prominence. This one can be done in 30 mins 🤣🤙

[prisma saddle]

yup that’s all mine are. well my clients.

was wondering if i get bitter antenna. but. think ill just get the whole thing up.

to not deal with loss.

[real cedar]

I also thought about it. If your ever super super unsure but you wanna put a node on a high hill like up near the Bingham mine and stuff. When in doubt CLIENT but change the nodeinfo and pos to 43200 and turn on neighborinfo over lora.. Set that to 14400. Set device telemetry to 14400.. Turn everything else off

That's a router without being a dick 🤣

Its what I'm going to do at least

[real cedar]

I usually slap a couple extra bats on

Give her that extra oommmmph

For them extra shit winters

[prisma saddle]

oh nice.

[real cedar]

Mostly cuz at the peaks it gets COLD and it blows.. Literally (150+ mph)

Sometimes

[prisma saddle]

those 18650 or 218. whatever.

[real cedar]

21700 5000 mah

Each

[prisma saddle]

ah 21700.

ya.

cool.

[real cedar]

AUR has done pretty well but I noticed something. ADC drift

Onboard controller not quite slapping 4.2

But it's fine. It just means it won't ever get to equalize the cells. Which sucks but oh well

The problem is how I wired it

I just put the batteries in parallel instead of a proper BMS

So they won't last as long. In fact as one dies it will harm the rest of the pack more. So when it's voltage is lower than the others it will pull from those parasitically

[real cedar]

@prisma saddle Jedd WizMesh seen

That your dude?

[prisma saddle]

nope.

[prisma saddle]

nope don’t know who that is.

mine would be steve seeed 1 and steve something else.

[real cedar]

Well clearly his seed ain't swimming very hard. I'll see myself out 😂🤙

My issue with being able to tell you for certain is IDK where POTM actually is IRL

[vital hemlock]

@hallow dagger Any thoughts on replacing or updating potm? Hope you’re well man. 🫡

[prisma saddle]

ya no biggie.. will keep working at it. will figure it out 🙂 thanks for all your help and tips. will get it.

[long crown]

Jedd is my new toy 😁

[prisma saddle]

cool what ya get?

[long crown]

I got the wismesh poket v2

https://store.rokland.com/products/wismesh-pocket

it’s a fun little one

[prisma saddle]

sweet looks like fun!

[broken turret]

ROUTER_LATE will rebroadcast (once) every packet it hears with hops remaining. It does this using the same timing behaviour as clients normally would, if it doesn't hear any other rebroadcasters. If it does hear another rebroadcaster, then it will delay its rebroadcasting to a late contention window that occurs after the normal client one.

[broken turret]

This is completely incorrect. If a RL hears another node rebroadcasting the packet, the RL will still rebroadcast. It just does so later than it otherwise would (i.e. it moves the rebroadcast to that late contention window I mentioned above).

RL is never prioritised ahead of regular clients.

[real cedar]

Oh! Thanks for the clarification! Sorry for some reason it came off to me that router_late would broadcast ahead of clients in the contention window. Might I suggest having this level of detail in the documentation of the roles? It would greatly help the average user understand these things. Not complaining at all just a suggestion. If I were to send a couple of our new users to the same docs they would never figure this out.

RL comes after client. So if we have a bunch of clients and routers and router_lates in the valley... If a client broadcasts from their house.. A router late will only rebroadcast once clients and routers stopped talking in the same contention window?

If that's correct. We will note this down for our eventual documentation of roles. We can always just set everything to router if the mode doesn't work out. But I imagine. Moving the rebroadcast to the end of the contention window has an effect to reduce collisions? Maybe I don't get the overall timing structure that well yet

[real cedar]

This weekend I'll be starting to write up our mesh documentation in markdown prepping it for HTML conversion later so this is very helpful. Thank you @broken turret

[prisma saddle]

cool excited to devour it.

[real cedar]

I'm thinking I'll use HUGO
https://gohugo.io/

And toss it on subdomain to my domain.. For now while I develop it out

But once it's in a solid template I can just upload it to my web accessible homelab git server and give it yall

[leaden crow]

I built you another hat and tested it last night. You going to be at the hackerspace this week?

[real cedar]

I will be Thursday for sure

Awesome sauce. That's going up quick. Haha

Should I do RPI zero 2 or zero og

[leaden crow]

I would say zero og for battery life, but I've had terrible luck with meshtasticd on armhf lately

[real cedar]

I don't currently own a zero OG

Fuck

2W it is

[leaden crow]

I would do some testing and turn the clockspeed way down

[real cedar]

I'll disable WiFi BT when I deploy it.

Got some doubts underclocking and undervolting would yield me much

[leaden crow]

disable the HDMI and I think there is more stuff you can do to cut power

[real cedar]

In fact.. I think I'll do all that and run Alpine Linux. Does meshtasticD require glibc to run? Or can I use musl?

If it's all python

Then I should be good

https://www.alpinelinux.org/
Once fully ready for deployment I'll whitelist USB and encrypt the SD card and hopefully get encrypted boot going

So at the very least plugging into it yields nothing or stealing the SD card

[leaden crow]

I probably wouldn't worry about LUKS that much, just leave the OS a complete barebones install. The most they would get is a node config and some keys you would just never use again.

[real cedar]

Will do then

I was gonna go through the trouble of luks on ARM but if I didn't need to.. Hell yeah I'll copy out of that

[broken turret]

Might I suggest having this level of detail in the documentation of the roles? It would greatly help the average user understand these things.

I'm not the one who writes the documentation unfortunately. I agree that this would be helpful to have somewhere.

RL comes after client. So if we have a bunch of clients and routers and router_lates in the valley... If a client broadcasts from their house.. A router late will only rebroadcast once clients and routers stopped talking in the same contention window?

Clients and routers / repeaters do not share the same contention window. Clients & RLs do, but RL will get out of the way if it hears other nodes. Meshtastic's rebroadcast logic is (simplified) as follows:

1. A packet is received.
2. If hop_limit on the packet is zero, do not rebroadcast. Otherwise:
3. If I am a ROUTER or REPEATER:
   a. Wait a small random delay, multiplied by a bias for the SNR on the received packet. The worse the SNR that the packet was received with, the shorter the waiting period.
   b. Wait until the channel is clear, then transmit.
4. If I am not a ROUTER or REPEATER:
   a. Wait until after the longest mathematically possible time that a ROUTER or REPEATER might wait, then wait for an additional, slightly longer random interval multiplied by the SNR bias.
   b. Wait until the channel is clear; then
   c. If another node was heard to rebroadcast the packet, and I am not a ROUTER_LATE, then cancel the pending rebroadcast and do nothing. Otherwise:
   d. Transmit the packet unless I am both a ROUTER_LATE AND overheard another rebroadcast.
5. If I am a ROUTER_LATE, and another node was heard to rebroadcast the packet, then:
   a. Wait until after the mathematically longest possible time that any other mode might wait before rebroadcasting in step (4), then wait for an additional random interval multiplied by the SNR bias.
   b. Wait until the channel is clear, then transmit.

Or if you want to simplify further to just priority:

1. ROUTER & REPEATER go first
2. All other rebroadcasting roles go after (1), but except for ROUTER_LATE, will not rebroadcast at all if they hear another node doing so.
3. If ROUTER_LATE hears another rebroadcaster, it goes last, after everything else has had a chance.

Most of this logic lives in RadioLibInterface.cpp, RadioInterface.cpp, and FloodingRouter.cpp.

Honestly, the documentation could usefully do with having a flowchart to describe routing behaviour.

There's a bunch of QOS & queuing stuff that happens too, which I have not mentioned above - but if the mesh is busy, then that will also have an impact on what order packets are transmitted in, and whether they are transmitted at all. Non-late packets get dequeued for transmission before late ones (late packets are packets pending being sent by a ROUTER_LATE where another rebroadcaster was heard).

[prisma saddle]

thanks for taking the time to explain it all. definitely info that would be of good use for all that are wanting a well oiled machine. of a mesh network.

[white field]

TBH, ChatGPT is pretty good at explaining this stuff if you use "research" mode.

I've been using it constantly at work recently and it will cross reference, forums, github, reddit, source code, etc.

[broken turret]

Mmm, I have found it consistently gets things confidently wrong. Looks plausible, and research mode helps, but it commonly regurgitates popular misconceptions, or hallucinates its own.

Definitely a helpful tool, but not one that can be trusted in situations where the user does not have the ability or inclination to verify the assertions it makes.

[prisma saddle]

like wikipedia. lol.

[white field]

Oh yeah

I cross reference it with other models and independently check

But the speed of its initial research is godlike

Put entire log traces in and it finds the problem you couldn’t see

[real cedar]

Holy crap this is exactly what I'm looking for thank you and thank you for such a detailed and through response. I will definitely use it ad a reference for the documentation. In fact I am just gonna throw this all in markdown now so I have it somewhere

[real cedar]

If I make one and it's good would you like me to contribute it

LOLLLLLLL SNR explains why My packets would rather go far down south to the farthest and weakest router before being broadcast back up to where they are going 😂🤙

It also tells me a ton about how I should try and lay a few things out

ABSOLUTELY using router Late's now

That's so useful

[prisma saddle]

cool.

[broken turret]

Sure 🙂. I'm not sure who it needs to go to in order to make it into the official docs, though.

[broken turret]

Mmm, the idea is that the worst SNR will be further away, and therefore by using it as a proxy for distance, this behaviour will help to ensure that packets travel further geographically within the available hop limit.

It's definitely an imperfect proxy though. When somebody's pocket node repeats before the client node in a great location on a hill, for example. It's not further away, it's just in a crappy location with lots of signal attenuation. This is a key part of why setting compromised nodes to CLIENT_MUTE is helpful.

[white field]

Tbh, being able to set desired hop path with retries along it

That would crush a lot of these problems we see

I only want NPR and then my nodes to repeat my messages when I know anything else will pollute the mesh

And I really could care less about your location or battery level for static nodes

Or node info

I kinda hate that the devs were so against setting stricter limits by default for long fast

[broken turret]

For packets that are intended for a specific node, v2.6+ does this. Automatically though; you can't set the path.

Flooded packets are different; they are ideally supposed to go everywhere.

[white field]

Does the packet need to be passed thru all 2.6 nodes?

[broken turret]

The level of growth was unexpected, I think. They're much more open to defaults that scale better these days.

[white field]

I am now seeing that I view a different peak from my house and I’m about to try to replace my link thru NPR. It’s just too unreliable at the moment

I just tested and I’m not able to get any ACKs back thru NPR from outside the city

[broken turret]

No. But only v2.6+ nodes in the path will follow the selective routing logic.

[white field]

Sure so if I have a home router on 2.6 and the message hits NPR, the header is lost and everyone else retransmits

Or does it live somewhere in the headers where all 2.6 nodes will respect and omit the transmit.

[broken turret]

Basically, 2.6+ sets a piece in the header when it rebroadcasts saying that it was the relaying node. And other 2.6+ nodes who see a robust path via that node will set a thing in the header saying they want packets intended for that source node to go via that relay. If they send a packet that way and it doesn't work, then they try again with flooding. And any non-2.6 nodes also result in flooding on those parts of the route.

[broken turret]

Simplified, but yes. This.

It's a good strategy, but will take a while to have an impact, as it relies on people upgrading their firmware.

[white field]

Hmm, actually I’m wondering if my new node died in the rain.

I haven’t been able to contact anything via solar:3 since 15hrs ago. 😵

I saw the humidity sensor spike in its last metric output. 😱

I take it back. We’re online still!

Kinda funny that I can completely bypass the NPR/onaqui link via that node above my house 😆

[real cedar]

Ahh okay that's connecting some dots. Man I knew client mute and hidden were the way when it came to low power nodes. I was just afraid of losing device discovery on hidden

I know 2.6.X really changed a few things for example. You get less of a flood and if you send DMs apparently it now remembers how to hop through?

[real cedar]

I was about to ask more but it seems you explained this after where I replied at

[prisma saddle]

interesting

repeater we don’t know about?

which i guess is not crazy since they are hidden from list. ?

[leaden crow]

NPR and POTM are on old firmware. Most of the time they are an intermediate hop, they are are reported that way (as Unknown or ffffffff)

Anybody that is looking for a meshtasticd project, or maybe just wants a nice enclosure. Check out these crypto miners on ebay for $30.
#meshtasticd message
The enclosure alone looks worth more than $30. It includes a Pi CM3 with 32gb high endurance eMMC module, possibly a GPS board, antennas, etc. People on #meshtasticd appear to already have E22 modules working with it.

[real cedar]

I'm converting 4 of them to routers for the northern Utah part of the mesh

Who's doing mt ellen

Stick one of these up there. 1 watt. 10 dBi antenna. You'll broadcast for 100s of miles

Haha

@white field maximum happening. 1 watt prom point, 1 watt desert pk, 1 watt, cedar mtn HP and 1 watt goshute pk Nevada. We gonna connect the whole of the desert

I've got 3 10 dBi antennas and 2 8.5 dBis

Inb4 all of the northerns parts of SLC and toele don't connect to NPR anymore due to SNR

[prisma saddle]

ha ha that should be fun..

[prisma saddle]

grabbed me more stuff to make an another outside client node. rak alfa. batteries.

[white field]

Yeah let’s just get high power filtered routers and then swap to MF

[prisma saddle]

does that cause any height issues with the signal? 10db/12db makes the signal not as low in the valley does it not

[leaden crow]

That really only applies to the dBi boost you get from high gain antennas. What Jacob is talking about is using amplified transceivers like this:
https://www.cdebyte.com/products/E22-900M30S/
or
https://wiki.uniteng.com/en/meshtastic/station-g2

[prisma saddle]

good to know. thanks for the explanation

[real cedar]

Y'all gonna have to solve NPR. I actually think ONLY NPR should be a 1 watt. Eventual Olympus.. Rak.. Ensign and potm rak.. That's fine..

Since 1 watts are rare and hard to do. I suggest we use them where their benefit can be maximized. Deserts and the highest prominence

1 watt is wasted in the bowl

The extra power probably would do more harm than good if we had them all be that

I am serious though AT minimum.. I'm connecting up promontory point - desert - goshute.. But that's for my own interest as I play around a lot out there

This will have the affect of connecting pretty much the entire Northern part of Utah north of I80.. With the only blank spot being logan

[leaden crow]

#1197577977781821541 message.

I assumed if we got in with the HAMs, we'd have power available.

[prisma saddle]

eh we don’t need those aggies anyway.

[real cedar]

Sure but I've been hearing that this has been talked about for over a year now with little movement? That's what I was told last I asked around at least

I'm all for it but that makes me less hopeful haha

OH so utahham runs lake mountain?

[leaden crow]

yes

you should search his messages and read them

[real cedar]

How many we talking

[leaden crow]

not much, only like 4 pages of search results

[real cedar]

Discord Mobile Search is awwwwwful

Well in any case hell yeah if he can get Farnsworth

We would need some serious filtering

[leaden crow]

It sounds like he is the one that would have the connections, but I think he is a busy guy.

[real cedar]

Anyways whenever that becomes a thing.. I'm definitely onboard with the idea of only 1.. 1 watt node to serve the cities being the highest and most prominent router with the other lower power routers dotted strategically.. Whether that's FPR or NPR doesn't matter much to me

Now that those Nebras freed up some RAKs I have a lot more nodes available to provide helper router_lates in strategic spots which might help when we got to MF and SF

If Farnsworth becomes a thing I will be ecstatic since with Thurston peak you could get the mesh deep into the Backcountry

I'm stoked for the Nebras. But the nice box isn't really what I want. I have boxes so I'll try to transplant the minimum needed hardware over and strap it to the LTO batteries and a boost converter and a solar charging circuit hahahah

But I gotta profile their power usage

Their boxes introduce another nice opportunity

I can make a decentralized node design in a tree

Keep the box and antenna strapped to the trunk

Batteries in a burial rated box..

Solar panel hidden on some high branch in the leaves hahs

[real cedar]

@leaden crow he's so right here
#1197577977781821541 message

If your gonna run a feed. LMR400

You'll maybe lose a db or two if extra long haha

Shiiit I'm looking at all the discussions and reading far into the past 🤣 y'all basically knew you needed triple routers and ensign never got colonized or did it? And it got stolen?

BUSTED.. I'm Jk.. Haha

[leaden crow]

I hoped the HAM people would figure it out and we would be legitimate.
Also, I said it about the LMR400 just 2 days ago:
#1197577977781821541 message

[prime torrent]

Hey folks, I'm new to the hobby and the discord. I'm hoping for your help.

I've picked up a couple of devices with the main goal of keeping in touch with my daughter when we are camping.

I have a T-1000E and an ESP32. I added a 915Mhz antenna to the ESP32.

I have successfully transmitted and received messages between the devices at close range.

I have yet to pick up or send any messages to anyone else. My sent messages on LongFast get a "max transmission reached" error.

I'm very far west in Herriman, almost at the entrance to Butterfield Canyon. I have clear line of sight to the Wasatch range and most of the valley due to the higher elevation out here.

My question is: is this normal? Should I be receiving daily chatter or is that not how it works? Am I doing something wrong?

Would love to have one of you experts help with some advice.

[prisma saddle]

i am in herriman too :).

[prime torrent]

Oh great! Are you 109b? 🫡

I'm at 73rd West. Would love to try a short-ish range test with wherever you are.

[prisma saddle]

nope. i’m actually on a diff network. that actually works.

[real cedar]

Are you on FS51 (coordinated) or FS20 (disaster zone)

[prisma saddle]

guessing 20 since things are not working. 🙂

[prisma saddle]

i can help set him up. ya?