bring back "def" maps

[half pawn]

but thats not true, thats just what sounds true

[keen mesa]

exactly

[half pawn]

ppl cycle the person on wall

[vestal chasm]

and whats wrong with that

[eager pendant]

do u want the defender to be a robot?

not go for a drink ever

or just do anything

or be distracted by someone else rushing for instance?

[half pawn]

what actually is the point u are trying to make

[keen mesa]

i'm not saying its wrong, i'm saying if the only chance at getting in is when defenders are asleep, can you really call that a "viable" strat?

[eager pendant]

its not the only chance

[wooden nebula]

Name the other chance then

[half pawn]

again, rush with another person

exponentially increases chances

[eager pendant]

i defend a lot if there is 4 good rushers coordinated it is very hard to keep track of them all

[vestal chasm]

Otherwise, it's just because sometimes the rusher can be better than the defender?

[eager pendant]

they can quite easily get into wall

[wooden nebula]

You're in pubs, odds of that are kinda low

[keen mesa]

that sounds like defender skill issue if suddently 2 ppl attacking makes it a problem

in comp it was not rare to have to defend 4-man pushes

[half pawn]

what are u even trying to say

[eager pendant]

if 2 people with a brain are griefing ur entire def yes it makes it harder

[half pawn]

u can have 1 person defending the other while they break the wall

literally infinitely more possible strategies

[eager pendant]

^

i have a feeling ur idea of rushing is kooldawg1

[keen mesa]

if the rushers started digging the wall, you failed as a defender

[half pawn]

again, what is your point

[vestal chasm]

Yes, you may miss a shot as a defender, but that's just like a rusher sometimes misses a block

[keen mesa]

for them to start digging you need to have failed quite a few

[vestal chasm]

Isn't that just human nature? That people can make mistakes?

[keen mesa]

if defenders are even remotely skilled, a 1 or 2 man push doesn't make a difference

[half pawn]

not true

[vestal chasm]

Rushers can also have 40 deaths before they manage to get in

[keen mesa]

if ur defense falls over just because of 2 ppl rushing, you were cuddled as a defender

[half pawn]

1 can distract 1 can push

again not true

also why limit to 2

could easily be 3,4 etc

why are the rushers not forced to have to adapt strategy whereas defenders are

[wooden nebula]

i'd love to see a coordinated ground rush of 10 players please

[late tangle]

https://tenor.com/view/get-a-job-gng-jobsfosnobs-job-application-boo-job-boom-gif-14884364112106221852

[vestal chasm]

why? when 2 players can do it

[keen mesa]

forced to adapt my ass

[half pawn]

yea it has happened, i cant remmeber what the map was called but before trianof was banned we got like 6-7 ppl to rush together

and it worked

[half pawn]

lowkey this is true i feel like a wasteman arguing this shit but im too deep into this now

[half pawn]

what

[keen mesa]

defenders have been doing the same shit for a decade

[vestal chasm]

Why change something that actually keeps the server alive?

[half pawn]

also not true, ive seen it change in the last year or so

the premise is the same, but u are forgetting speficis

[keen mesa]

so, what adaptations have defenders exacty gone thru?

[half pawn]

different floor designs

uh

[vestal chasm]

It is relatively new that fence gates have been added to the walls

[half pawn]

idk the sky fence gate stuff

also idk why i said that not really what i meant anyways

[wooden nebula]

okay your thoughts on this matter

[half pawn]

bad

[wooden nebula]

You're going roughly through the light blue line

At the blob you have about half of the enemy team (if not more)

for reference, this is from the ground, no skies or whatever

[vestal chasm]

Then you might die, and then try again

[wooden nebula]

if you're being funneled into a swarm of players ON PURPOSE then the map is BROKEN

[vestal chasm]

You can dig?

No one says you have to run straight to the spawn point.

[wooden nebula]

digging is slow

[vestal chasm]

You have to make progress, right? No one expects you to get in on your first try

[half pawn]

btu thats part of my point, for some reason its expected that rushers get the easiest route to their objective whereas defenders have to work around them

thats more of wha ti meant

[wooden nebula]

by tunnelling you only give time to defenders to throw a wall in

[keen mesa]

it's not "the easiest", it's just having A route, that doesn't involve forcing everyone into defending.

[vestal chasm]

and for example, it could be a rusher who digges, and then the defender might lose focus and the attacker can have a better chance of getting in

[half pawn]

as ryan said, ppl can dig

tunnel and then rush together

but i get why kanto is shelved anyways,

there are 100s of strats that arent used by rushers that would work

[late tangle]

how is kanto shelved 😭

[half pawn]

old kanto i mean

or maps like old kanto

[wooden nebula]

a player losing attention in the first 5 minutes of the match is unlikely to happen

[vestal chasm]

Where does it say it should be in the first 5 min you dig?

[wooden nebula]

By waiting I again only give defenders time to erect a wall to stop me

[late tangle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1326662365340635240/1392249650689478706/caption.gif

[wooden nebula]

It is in my interest to get in BEFORE any defensive structures get built

[vestal chasm]

You should try watching some of the videos people post, where they can get into wools that last around two hours

[half pawn]

on maps like agro, wrath, shroom

[late tangle]

what strats

[keen mesa]

how naive can one be?

[late tangle]

theres 100s of strats bro

100s bro

source trust me

[half pawn]

ok

fine

i made that up

happy

but i mean

lots of untrie dhtings

like iron bars

basically ends the game then and there

[wooden nebula]

My favorite strategy to win a match is to type /end

[keen mesa]

if there were 100s of viable strategies, the matches would not last 100mins minimum and average of 200.

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[half pawn]

when actually used

[keen mesa]

there may be 100s of strategies but none of them end the match, as its clear by the data.

[half pawn]

yes viable spam def with iron bars

they would if ppl used then

[late tangle]

the only winners are those who sit in /obs and talk to people while watching youtube

[vestal chasm]

aint that only the bingo players

no hate for bingo

[half pawn]

there were a couple games that ended as soon as the rushers started using iron bars

2hr+ games btw

yea ik i dont have video evidence but ask around if u want

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[half pawn]

there was an oaken game like within 2 week that ended as soon as ppl started spamming iron bars in sky

the first hour or so, ppl were just pvping on sky

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[late tangle]

https://tenor.com/view/france-hell-gates-of-hell-gates-meme-gif-3072452389461214069

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[dawn lance]

don't u think you have slowed down the attackers improvement/meta when you simply remove or edit the map to benefit attackers? I do think there's improvements/evolution on attackers side over the years. If so, attackers would never come up with new strategies to counter new defenses, and the cycle goes on

I believe its very lazy to just remove the map indefinetly and call it the day or add a stupid time limit

[keen mesa]

don't you think you have slowed down the defenders improvement/meta when you simply make maps to benefit defenders?

[vestal chasm]

You literally don't benefit either attackers or defenders by removing “def maps”; you just make the server die a slow death

[keen mesa]

many of these one-sided maps are not old.

[late tangle]

kenze

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[keen mesa]

back in OCN times people knew how to defend

nowadays the map has to defend for them

[half pawn]

ppl were a lot worse back then

so the skill of the defender trumped that of rushers

or the lower effort def trumped that of the rushers

[late tangle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1326662365340635240/1392314058723692564/caption.gif

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[late tangle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1032107455984959619/1382438304766623877/rule_1.gif

[keen mesa]

that applies both ways

but tbh, i disagree

i think defenders used to be better back then

[vestal chasm]

https://tenor.com/view/bruh-stop-playing-you-cant-be-serious-can't-believe-it-for-real-gif-15330755033980503548

[keen mesa]

i think alot of the craft has been lost, the lack of a competitive scene has made overall skill lower

its rare to see a core well defended

[late tangle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1240662452652347452/1379050436283076699/attachment.gif

[solid thistle]

Fine I’ll make a map when I get home to solve all ur problems

Fuck it

[late tangle]

HELL NO

[solid thistle]

@late tangle Qanna help

[late tangle]

im closing all map submissions

[solid thistle]

1 hour challenge

[late tangle]

HELL NO

[solid thistle]

They call me the plane

[vestal chasm]

Idk, the only one who actually makes maps is someone who isn't a builder

[warm sequoia]

guys check out parahumans dot wordpress dot com

Good book

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[warm sequoia]

read instead of rushing

[dawn lance]

the meta has always evolved because of the natural cycle between strong attackers and strong defenders. Good attackers find new metas, by finding new strategies, but only because good defenses force them to adapt. If you remove a map or artificially nerf it, you break that cycle attackers don’t get the chance to improve further, and defenders don’t need to adjust either. That’s why the evolution slows down on both sides when maps are edited or removed instead of being played out, and there are ways to nerf stalemates by making tiny adjustments

for example,

it really sucks to take sky cuz of the bowspam

[late tangle]

I say we make it so you dont have bows if your on your own sides wool lane

and add time limits 👍

[dawn lance]

my take is that bows shouldn't have infinity, and every 30 minutes u add protection against projectiles +1, so at a certain point, arrows will only serve to slow down attackers but wont deal a huge amount of damage

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[dawn lance]

so whoever has the most players on sky, will be in favor

[vestal chasm]

You're just one of those map devs who probably shouldn't have been given access. Because all you do is mess up the server, from my perspective

[solid thistle]

July what if I said the map I was making is OG pgm layout inspired 😈

[late tangle]

You're just one of those map devs who probably shouldn't have been given access. Because all you do is mess up the server, from my perspective

[vestal chasm]

you just pasted what i wrote

gj

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[viral dune]

the second part is actually a good idea

you should add to shroom galaxy

[late tangle]

babe wake up new copypasta dropped

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[dawn lance]

yeah, my issue has always been how they treat the maps, like lets try new solutions

[late tangle]

You're just one of those defenders who probably shouldn't have been given wall access. Because all you do is bow spam from my perspective

[dawn lance]

they are just too lazy and too self centered to listen

[vale cipher]

?

[viral dune]

they are right here in the chat you can talk about what changes need to be made on shroom

[vestal chasm]

you're acting totally childish its crazy

[late tangle]

Stop pinging me

[dawn lance]

dude tbh, shroom is not a hard map to rush, what is your take on shroom galaxy

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[vestal chasm]

You are no staff dude chill

[late tangle]

Here is why shroom was removed

[warm sequoia]

guys check out "Ado"

[late tangle]

Now this is a temporary thing

[vale cipher]

A D O

[late tangle]

I have a life outside of OCC so things take time

[warm sequoia]

abo maybe

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[keen mesa]

issue is when we tried, everyone cried
this has happened for every change: from water lanes to increasing build limit

[late tangle]

1. Sam wanted to try layout changes before he took a break
2. There is a crazy attacker cheese that needs to be fixed
3. The map could use a water lane

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[half pawn]

what is attacker cheese

[warm sequoia]

how about defenders can /votekick attackers at will

to give them more breathing room

[vestal chasm]

Even though half the time Shroom Galaxy is played, it lasts about 15 minutes?

[keen mesa]

some way that allows you to skip the defense

[dusk sundial]

if you place a bucket of milk and wait long enough it becomes cheese

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[late tangle]

On shroom you can run from 1 wool room, jump into the spawn and get to the other side

This is kind of a lost cause explaining any of this stuff

[dawn lance]

yeah, you make bad changes, people complain that how it works. I gave an idea on how to improve the situation whats your take on it

[viral dune]

was xmling the map to increase build height by 1 block at a time ever tried

[vestal chasm]

barriers?

[late tangle]

I dont owe anyone an explanation of anything I do

[warm sequoia]

this sounds awesome

[keen mesa]

its the first time i've heard an idea from you that isn't "revert it"

[late tangle]

neither does mapdev

[viral dune]

dude they were doing 3 at a time!

[warm sequoia]

thats a little much

how about 3 blocks per hour

[dusk sundial]

is this 1 of the 100 strats attackers aren't using right now

[vestal chasm]

True, they don't have to explain anything, even though they don't actually know what's going on

[half pawn]

i just asked a question i didnt know what it meant

[late tangle]

Im rent free in your head

kinda sad tbh

[vestal chasm]

whut?

[keen mesa]

your response often was "revert it" or "it was perfect as it was" which is not very useful

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[keen mesa]

its nice to, for once, see a useful suggestion

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[vestal chasm]

There are 18 thumbs up and 2 thumbs down, which may say something about the mistake the map dev has made 🤣

maybe theyll admit it soon too

[half pawn]

not really a good mentality to have when u are in charge of stuff icl

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[half pawn]

wju the fuck

where do u find this shit

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[keen mesa]

not really a good mentality to think you're entitled to an explanation

[viral dune]

ok whatever let's pick a stalemate map and try the projectile protection thing @late tangle @keen mesa @dawn lance @half pawn let's change the world

[keen mesa]

i'm all for it

just maybe not with the proposed numbers tho

[dawn lance]

I wont respond to that cuz the conversation wont be productive, but okay we agreed on a suggestion what is the next step, are you going to add the maps back so it can be test it?

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[vestal chasm]

Of course you need an explanation for things that don't make any sense at all? xd ragebait 1/10

[half pawn]

different things cus they actually have power

[late tangle]

Which maps because if thyre the ones im thinking of, pablo didnt remove them

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[wooden nebula]

You're just one of those map devs who probably shouldn't have been given access. Because all you do is mess up the server, from my perspective

[vestal chasm]

You are late m8

[wooden nebula]

Yeah I was doing some stats

And don't "m8" me

[vestal chasm]

ohh youre one of the big boys now

[wooden nebula]

???

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[keen mesa]

yea i am not a mapdev, i removed none of those maps and i won't be adding them back either

and to be clear, not just that i don't have perms to actually remove them myself, but i literally had 0 involvement on them being removed

803 was not technically removed, its on indefinite cooldown and that is my doing.
also, idk if you can really call that removed cause it was never "added" to begin with

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[viral dune]

we never got to see 1.0.1

[keen mesa]

i saw it, its not a change at all

whenever 803 gets a real change itll stop being on cd

[dawn lance]

agrorythe, wrath, belcrest, irongate, that would be a good start to test the feature

[keen mesa]

while it continues to be a map made in a lab to be a straight line and stalemate as long as possible, it should not be added

[hybrid geyser]

with what authority can advisors add maps to indefinite cooldowns

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[dawn lance]

back to step 0 congrats

[keen mesa]

803 is a broken map.

[viral dune]

did u talk to minuyo

[wooden nebula]

(i stole this off of somewhere im lazy)

[keen mesa]

https://github.com/OvercastCommunity/CommunityMaps/issues/885#issuecomment-2448176102

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[viral dune]

did u talk to him after removing it

[vale cipher]

the rapture

[keen mesa]

the map just never got to play since elim put it in the pool i put it on cd

the map is devphased and should remain like that until modified

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[viral dune]

idk i think u should communicate that differently with mapdevs and the mapmaker

[rapid sun]

Do map devs like low pop server?

[viral dune]

anyway, projectile protection

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[keen mesa]

i told elim that the map was not pool ready, and put it on cd until i got a response on what to do with it, he never really replied

[viral dune]

that sounds like pulling rank

[keen mesa]

it sounds like elim made a mistake and i prevented that mistake from affecting the server in a negative way

[warm sequoia]

isnt pablo owner anyways

[keen mesa]

nope

[wooden nebula]

"what's a hierarchy?"
– unnamed system administrator, 2025

[keen mesa]

i mean, main mapdev agreed map wasn't ready 🤷

https://github.com/OvercastCommunity/CommunityMaps/issues/885#issuecomment-2381595947

if anything elim is the one who ignored mame and me's judgement and simply added it to the pool, "pulling rank" on mame

[late tangle]

wait till the defenders hear its my fault

[keen mesa]

well more like the opposite, it was your fault that it was added to the pool at all

when it shouldn't have

regardless it has been on cd so it didn't have an effect, so it was fixed

[viral dune]

okay how about we try projectile protection on it

[keen mesa]

No.

that map is fundamentally flawed in layout, it should simply not be played until reworked

happy to try projectile in any of the other maps mentioned, like wrath or agrorythe

[vale cipher]

@late tangle

[wooden nebula]

no worries, the last attack from the echo chamber my cat has reportedly seen in a TF2 chat was directed against me

[outer spear]

the feedback given in the issue is quite clear

[mossy trench]

1200 replies is absolutely wild

[viral dune]

yeah but that was a year ago and the map was loaded since

i was asking if he knew about it being removed

[outer spear]

no idea

issue is reopened now, I don't think it should have been added to the pool but I have essentially let Eliminate do what he wants with the pool because he is motivated to do it and I am not, but I do think this is a map I should have been more vocal about not being in the pool

and I should have done that when Pablo also messaged me about it

[hoary thicket]

The same feedback was addressed multiple times before it’s submission including by myself so it not being updated to address that only furthers reasoning

[tame bloom]

what is that old map called

similar to 803 but 3 wools around the spawn

it's also like a straight lane of 400 blocks from base to base

[hoary thicket]

It’s I think 303

Or 308

(First ever CTW contest) map

[tame bloom]

by old map I mean it's literally from 2012 or something lmao

[hoary thicket]

Oh nvm then

lol

[outer spear]

the biggest issue with map submissions in OCC so far is partially my fault because from the start I have struggled to be strict on it, and that is giving feedback and gatekeeping maps until such feedback is addressed. many broken maps would not have made it to even being tested had this not been the case. I personally struggle with this because I have had interactions where people take feedback personally and as commentary on their abilities and that is not the case.

it's also difficult because in the moment feedback, which is perhaps the most important because it's based on players' first impressions and experiences of a map, may often be overly harsh or negative, or just not useful on a surface level, and it takes skill to not take that personally (and to figure out what that feedback actually means), something which I also struggle with even though I've been doing this for 4+ years now.

[hoary thicket]

Though also gotta consider that a portion of mapmakers will outright refuse to take on feedback

[outer spear]

exactly

[keen mesa]

wits end?

[outer spear]

that's perhaps the bigger deterrent tbh

[void sand]

bring back "def" maps and these are the ones they want back 😭

[outer spear]

i love turf wars!!!

[keen mesa]

oh

[tame bloom]

thats so bad that is never played yet somehow we want 803

[keen mesa]

how sad is it that this represents to many of these maps
wrath of cthulu
old kanto
candyland
colorado
turf wars
the lazy town one (unreleased)
the other turf wars (red vs blue ground strips)

[mossy trench]

https://tenor.com/view/ace-attorney-edgeworth-edgeworth-clussy-fever-gif-26147745

[half pawn]

fake news

[reef cape]

no way
we dont want 500 blocks

[dusk sundial]

400 is more reasonable

[plain drum]

https://tenor.com/view/muito-texto-mucho-texto-fala-muito-talking-bubble-nerd-pacman-gif-17400036354043280838

[verbal trail]

I could use 1000 blocks. Nothing better than building a wall without stressing about enemies

[solid thistle]

@narrow pilot How big is your wall?

[alpine portal]

can someone summarize cuz i aint reading all at

[mossy trench]

crafting iron bars automatically bans you and Ryan has subpar taste in memes

[reef cape]

I guess I’ll have a 1000 bans

[alpine portal]

can we add a nodebuff map

[dull ledge]

can we add a map which forces you to fill out and submit a job application if you want to get into the wool room

[willow acorn]

https://tenor.com/view/kikuri-hiroi-bocchi-the-rock-gif-10875704296706473379

[keen mesa]

so we back in the mine

[keen mesa]

so true

[keen mesa]

which side u on?

[willow acorn]

Not having a job :c

[keen mesa]

so sorry for you

time to get a job son

[willow acorn]

Job market is rather bad where I live

[keen mesa]

skill issue son

less weeb shit and more job applications

[keen mesa]

awake deez

[royal crescent]

tbh job market in general has been really brutal

[summer wadi]

1350 messages 😭

[scenic vine]

https://tenor.com/view/bocchi-bocchi-the-rock-hitori-gotoh-gif-27259628

def maps are fun, but a lot of them also only end when the rushers get buffs or water lanes change what needs to be defended. The best maps imo last max around 1h30 to 2hrs, because of advancing sky rushes or tunneling

[broken falcon]

octc is bad and all maps need to be incinerated

[reef cape]

Why

[austere crown]

https://tenor.com/view/wtf-confused-look-gif-24835232

[dull ledge]

this is what I think about def maps

[slow hound]

.

[shy obsidian]

Big dev pushes controversial map changes to keep the rusher/defender divide. If we ever want to achieve crafter enlightenment we need to set aside our differences and work against the dictating shadow monarchy

Wake up miners

[keen mesa]

🫂