Virtual/Physical Reference Panel

[eager radish]

I think there needs to be a way to physically see what each key and key switch is mapped to. To see what characters correspond with each key. A guide and app and website isn’t good enough.

I was thinking of some type of screen or display technology to display what the mapping layout currently is programmed to. That could also dynamically change when a key or key switch is remapped.

My first idea is a laser projection display like a virtual keyboard. But it displays the Charachorder mapping layout on each half of the charachorder. I was thinking there could be a flat pull out or slide out tray in case there is not enough surface area to display the projection in the area around around the Charachorder.

My second idea is a small rectangular reference screen that can be either attached or sitting near the charachorder again see the mapping of the charachorder.

I will post images of what I am basing these two ideas off of.

[hollow crescent]

The problem is this is only helpful for the first two hours of use, and is generally more harmful

[eager radish]

To be fair, in refutation of what you said. Why is there any characters physically printed on QWERTY keyboards? Why is that the standard? What you said could apply to regular QWERTY keyboards as well, but most people want the keycaps labeled and for good reason. Not everyone memorizes the keyboard layout even after extensive use. Personally I have used QWERTY keyboards for over 20 years and even I have to sometimes look at the keyboard to see what I am pressing, what each key does. Same is true for many if not most people. I know there is some people who want blank unlabeled keycaps but that is a small minority.

[hollow crescent]

It is exactly true with regular keyboards as well, and just as harmful to learning. The first thing you get told when learning to touch type is not to ever look at the labels no the keys.

Labeled keys are easier initially because you don't have to learn anything, but after about 1-2 hours of training you surpass that.

Looking at labels is a habit that is very hard to break as well.

Part of the reason why we have the CC1 form factor is of course also because we think that qwerty is a flawed standard from the get go

What I'm saying is to anyone who types more than just every few weeks labels are absolutely counterproductive

The time investment initially is extremely worth it

Especially with the CC1, you have to relearn a lot about how you type anyways

The last thing we want to do is encourage a habit which will absolutely just slow you down

Even our upcoming learning tools are gonna be very selective which and when to show label aids on screen

[eager radish]

In all honesty, what you are saying is completely unrealistic for most people. Sure we should ideally memorize most if not all keys, but only a small handful of people can do that consistently without ever looking at the keys. That’s how most people’s brains work and I don’t think it’s changing anytime soon. I know muscle memory is a thing, but it’s just not good enough for people to remember 50-100 keys. The fact of the matter is things in life need to be labeled for most people. Anything from toasters, to microwaves, to blenders to even the dashboard in cars, to important medical equipment. I think it would be much more harmful not to have labels than to have them, and for a good and obvious reason. People can’t remember everything and that is completely understandable.

[eager radish]

QWERTY is a flawed standard, not because of labels but because of the inefficiency of having many keys and having to press them individually as opposed to chorded entry.

[hollow crescent]

That's why I said to anyone who doesn't type just every few weeks. The M4G will have 64 keys in total to remember. I think for anyone who is somewhat serious about typing (which is probably the case when you get an input device for a few hundred dollars, and especially so with a novel formfactor), I would personally think that that is reasonable to learn

It's not about memorising everything perfectly, but you need to have it somewhere that is not super convenient to look at

Maybe you can talk about certain symbols

But letters is a bad idea imo

We're obviously not stopping you from making labels

It's your device

Just know what the tradeoff is

Sorry if this came off as dismissive, it's a topic I feel really strongly about

[eager radish]

I agree that memorization is ideal. But this is not an ideal world, we don’t have ideal memorization. I’m not saying to heavily rely on labels. No. I agree with you. As much memorization is ideal. But there should be a safety net for the small occasions when users need to see what they are pressing. I have a washing and drying machine combo set, but even after 10-15 years of use and only 10 or so buttons on each unit and the labels of the buttons fading away, I still have to use the on screen labels to see what I am pressing as annoying and troublesome as that is. I don’t think this problem is going away. Certainly not for most people. And the problem is made even worse for keyboards when you keep in mind they can be remapped and reprogrammed to whatever the user likes. And of course as humans do, we forget. What happens when the user forgets what they remapped the keys to? They need a visual aid to remember what each key does. And they need easy and convenient access to that layout to reference. The case for memorization and the lack of it getting in the way of learning is true for most things, yet we are able to look things up and design things to easily remember what or how things are. If we didn’t have labels for things we would have to remember what everything does and most information verbatim, which ironically is extremely archaic and again not realistic for most people. This same logic I am employing could even be applied to on screen virtual keyboards on phones. Most people use on screen phone keyboards with labels, not left as blank. Most people can’t even remember on screen keyboard layouts which for many people might be or is used way more than regular physical keyboards. The same reasoning applies, people can’t memorize on screen keyboards either, meaning the problem of needing labels as you put it, I’m paraphrasing, is still there. When in actuality it’s not a problem it’s a solution. It’s a solution for those who need it or want it.

And I think that preference that is at this point inherent to how people think should be respected. As well as made accessible for. So why not give people the option to have the labels if they desire it? It’s a completely reasonable request that most people actually want or need.

[hollow crescent]

My recommendation is to use the print feature on the device manager, and have the sheet handy somewhere near you

[eager radish]

That is a handy recommendation. But I think most people need more than that. They need immediate access to reference what each key and key switch is mapped to. No matter the device they are using the charachorder with for input. The reference needs to be on-hand at all times. Ideally built into the Charachorder units.

[hollow crescent]

You could proabably 3d print an extra shell or even just use a paper cutout

Actually here's a suggestion

What about transfer stickers?

[eager radish]

I noticed the Master Forge Charachorder has RGB LED lights jetting out of the side of each half of the charachorder device. Why couldn’t there for instance be a laser projection display in each one of those holes in the outer sides to show the current map layout of each half of the charachorder. Again for those that need or want it.

[supple field]

GG @eager radish, you just advanced to level 2!

[hollow crescent]

Hmm, I mean the M4G is gonna be pretty open, I think that's a mod you should be able to make?

[eager radish]

Yes for sure.

[hollow crescent]

I think transfer stickers could be a really great diy solution though

[eager radish]

I just want to say that, ideally I do think this is something the Charachorder team should implement themselves. Either by default, an option, even if the mechanism could be removed, or as a different modified model, or as a add-on. I think it will help sell charachorders. Even as just a cool little feature, as well of course as being useful. It could strongly aid people’s adoption of charachorder. And if a user does not want it or need it then don’t use it or get the model that doesn’t have it. It could be a huge selling point to a completely foreign device.

[near wedge]

I would say it would be a cool feature but would cost more time and money and wouldn’t be worth it

once you know where the keys are, any other layout you do will be easily transferable since you are touch typing and know which key is which etc. I use a steno keyboard that’s completely blank and I memorised all the keys in like 5 days and then never looked at my hands again

[eager radish]

That’s all well and good, but as I said multiple times before most people are not like that. Most people are not likely to do that. Bashing them over the head for something that will be immediately inaccessible for them doesn’t make sense. Expecting that out of them doesn’t make sense. What does make sense is doing what works and is necessary for most people. Without that, with all due respect I don’t think this device will take off like it could. The barrier to entry again for most people is just too high, and most people will not care. They will not care about this product. They won’t see this product as being a viable alternative. Of course I want this product to take off regardless.

[eager radish]

The more time and money part is definitely true however not being worth it is not necessarily true. It would be worth it for those many people, again most likely majority, who need or want it. And even profit-wise I do think it could be worth it. Having the feature could help sell much more more units making it worth it financially speaking.

[near wedge]

well. The screen that you are talking about will add like 50 dollars to the price, and do exactly the same thing as your laptop screen which you will have all the time anyway. Not to mention the time it would take to make something like that work.

also. I think a lot of people are likely to do that. And even if they aren't, it's best to make a habit of it. Touch typing is actually very easy to learn and very, very useful, especially if you learn it while learning a new keyboard layout. like I said. It took me 5 days to memorise the layout.

you're learning a whole new method of typing for gods sakes. Of course they should be prepared to have something I mediately inaccessible for them. And cheat sheets exist that do the exact same thing.

[near wedge]

just because they want it doesn't mean they need it. We stenographers highly suggest when learning steno you don't look at the keys ever. If someone says they are doing it, we all tell them not to.

in fact I would say it's even easier to learn touch typing on Charachorder since your fingers are harder to displace than on a steno keyboard.

also it would only help them in the learning process. After a few months it would likely never be used again.

that's what I'm assuming since I never look at my keyboard anymore.

[eager radish]

Question what do you do when you’re working on an old computer that either has a very primitive screen technology incapable of showing a visual aid for reference of the mapping layout or you are working in a complete text based OS such as DOS, again incapable of showing the mapping layout.

[near wedge]

use your phone or something goddammit. This is 2024

[eager radish]

And what happens if you don’t have your phone on you? Maybe this is in a classroom or workplace where phones aren’t allowed at all or not allowed in use. This might be a unlikely scenario for most people, but I think are probably many more scenarios. There’s going to be times people want convenient and quick access to view their current map layout. And a tiny display would be how you do it.

[near wedge]

So what you’re saying, is that for the minuscule amounts of times where someone has a computer that can’t show a picture, and they can’t find their phone, and it’s in the period where they haven’t memorised the layout, so the first week or two. in order to meet those people’s needs we should dedicate months of our time and increase the price of the product to add that feature

look I appreciate the idea but surely you can see the reasoning for not doing it…

[chrome oar]

Yeah, I'm not seeing this point getting any traction at all.
If you really need a display that shows you the keys, make one. Cause the core demographic for this product is touch-typing nerds who want to chord and probably never take their fingers off the keys.
These kinds of typing nerds never look at the keys.
For those with a limitation that requires them to do so (poor memory or other) it's likely that a mod will one day be produced to help, as this company loves accessible products. I would not hold my breath, given they're about to launch a new flagship product.

[near wedge]

This is like saying that we use cars to get to our houses, but sometimes a person lives insanely far away from civilisation, and sometimes their car breaks down. so therefor we should make it so that we have a train that goes to every persons house.

[eager radish]

Actually I was originally thinking of those small TFT LCD display modules that would only be like an 1 inch or 2 big. Looking online those looks pretty cheap. Only a handful of dollars. I didn’t know the name because I don’t work with them using Arduino or Raspberry Pi or the like. I’m gonna edit the original post cause I finally looked them up and found them.

Think they’re called SPI display modules.

[supple field]

GG @eager radish, you just advanced to level 3!

[near wedge]

ooh ok. well tbh if they make it like an optional add on it could work. and a 1-2 inch display wouldn’t be that bad. just in order to display a whole layout you would need a lot of space I would assume

[eager radish]

Yeah

Those are pretty thin as well

Of course

I was also thinking of it being able to slide out.

I wanna respond to all these replies. Im honestly just too tired right now.

[near wedge]

I mean I don’t know, maybe you could explore the idea after they release the master forge. like who knows.

[near wedge]

that’s valid I’m tired too

[eager radish]

Yeah I’ll try to

I’m passionate about this idea and feel strongly about it.

[eager radish]

These.

[near wedge]

Yeah I can see. I mean it’s not bad it just feels like most people don’t really need it. cause currently most of the people using charachorder touch type anyway

[chrome oar]

Yeah, I know that I call it a fail if I have to look at the keys.

[eager radish]

I understand how that currently is, but I am talking about more mainstream adoption in the future. And most people are not touch typers. So having a reference display would help persuade normal people.

[chrome oar]

While everyone who makes a thing hopes that one day the whole world will realize why they need that thing, in this case (and most others) that's just not realistic.
The MF is so weird, so non-qwerty that I'm confident it will be seen like the Five-Fingers shows from Vibram.
Much better for you than shoes, but so weird no one wears them (unless they're weirdos like me).

[slow walrus]

Not sure if this is exactly related but Windows already has an on screen keyboard as an accessibility feature. I think something similar to that for the charachorder would be a good middle ground since you could toggle it on and off. Though I am not a software dev so I really wouldn't know what kind of work would be needed for something like that.

I'm also aware of an OBS plugin that supports an input overlay mainly used for people playing games I wonder if that could be an option to have an overlay for people not familiar with the product.

[night pendant]

I've been looking for something to no avail, so I made a thing in AHK. Posted it [here](#1288285600864276512 message)

[hazy nimbus]

I wanna go ahead and say that I don’t think it’s right to say “most people” as you are not a representative of most people.

The device being unlabelled is one of the selling points for me personally, and I’m not a hardcore typist.