#Final post from me - I’ll miss you SV

1000 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

woeful fulcrum
#

What a nothingburger post. Shouldve just named it ur experience instead and called it a day

wise forum
#

2.0 prisma farming? In 2.0 there was no prisma to farm.
Prisma was on 1.0.
What you call 2.0 was 1.0 - game release. Before that it was early access open beta.

upbeat bolt
keen berry
#

Am going to be sad to see you go, as you genuinely wanted to try to make the game a better place, but man, this post feels like something PAQT, would have wrote with how self centered it is, again, respect you for what ya did and what you tried, but it was really hard to read though because it felt extremely narcesistic.

keen berry
#

Going to choose to ignore the fact that ChatGPT was used at all, cause that aint important here. Its more the notion that there was a lot of stating that "I didn't do enough early" or "If we had worked harder earlier" After talking about all the stuff that you all did so well that made it seem narcissistic.

When I read though it I felt like it was someone writing about all the amazing things they did and how much they knew, and that they needed to be listened to, and then weren't listened to as much as they wanted.

Again, I have respect for what you attempted to do, and your play in the game. Its just the way that this entire thing is written, like you were the sole hope for the game, and the crux for changes, but they didn't listen, it feels off to me, I don't know exactly how to explain it, but the tone feels very self serving.

drifting patio
#

Oh you just now realized your wording can make you sound a specific way to different people

#

Thats extremely fucking funny

keen berry
#

Yea, there were a lot of things that should have happened a while ago, that didn't happen, and a lot of things that did happen, that probably shouldn't have happened

dusty stump
#

Hudson was the real problem that killed the game we all know it

#

That and Shrike

keen berry
#

Nah, it was not enough counters, and no "cancel button"

#

Those were the killers

dusty stump
keen berry
#

Oh yea

#

Forgot about that gold

dusty stump
#

I will never ❤️

keen berry
#

Thanks, needed a good laugh, work has sucked

dusty stump
dry compass
#

ill also be taking my leave today was my last tournament

#

this game hurt me more then league ever could with 3000 hours in and total lobotomization of my character and the game i used to play all i have left is pure anger

keen berry
#

That's honestly the saddest thing to read, gunna genuinely miss you protofo

whole fulcrum
#

Wait, micah and 420 are done?

#

Also ima miss playing with you ham, even tho it was just alittle

#

Its really depressing, I enjoyed this game so much. As well as the community and friends I made in it

woeful fulcrum
#

xD if you think youre the messiah that couldve saved the game, basically shitting on the collaberative efforts people have made to make shit happen despite of the shortcomings of TC, that is by definition the most narcistic bs i have heard around the whole SV is dying debate and im moderating this shit for a long time now

#

You did nothing

#

you werent the one running events and talking to devs daily, trying to push change, you werent here sharing criticizm daily. You also arent working closer with the devs than anyone else that has literally just been trying to talk with them. Youre just another dude that has done alot less saying the most nothingburger things about the state of the game, but instead of just doing that quicky with a message in general, you instead think youre the chosen one, make a whole discussion post and a reddit threat talking about how you couldve saved the game

#

Like get a grip xD

#

The game was doomed the moment the devs have made the same classic mistake of morphing the formula to appease a small group of yesmen that pleased their idea of the game just because it didnt show great success from the getgo

#

the game was doomed because the devs used medieval age strats to fix matchmaking instead of tightening queues for the higher end enough for new players not to run into the rank 1 squad repeadetly

#

Nothing you couldve done hasnt been tried before bro

#

the devs simply didnt agree with the things that they are agreeing with now after their idea of how the game should be utterly failed.

#

But its simply way too late. All of the things happening now shouldve been done way before 1.0 dropped

#

there shouldnt have been a period with no patches but a period with them reverting everything people have been vocal against before 1.0 dropped

#

and there shouldve been continued open testing with a balanced way of top players giving feedback directly and casuals giving them feedback through forms as a summary ages ago already

#

like the system now isnt good either, its just a larger echochamber with alotta opinions never seeing the light of day even if theres a ton of people agreeing with the points made

#

its crazy to me with how bad things are handled after looking at things and realizing that people have literally been doing this for so long now and there literally are better examples to look at without a hassle

dusty stump
#

It's always so funny when a game dies and everyone becomes an arm chair game designer and can diagnose the exact reasons the game failed.

The sad part is that most of the glaring issues have been brought up since early 2023 and never addressed.

woeful fulcrum
#

Ive been saying this thing since open beta bro

#

since before we dropped the 50k players we had back then

#

ive been starting saying these things the moment they started airing restrictions as a way to solve the issues

#

theres a multitude of reasons why things started declining

#

trios caused the pick variety and viability of most of the already very one sided roster to tighten down even further

#

restrictions going down to solos literally killed the entire social aspect of playing the game for all of my friends 1 week into a seasonal reset

#

thats what made most of them quit

#

and generally their just has been a common ignorance of issues the game has had for so long now and obviously the most stupid attempt ive ever seen of introducing a metaprogression system on ur last attempt of marketing the game

#

I just named the issues that came up first. You dont have to be a game designer to know what most people have been upset about on the more commited community this game had vs seeing reviews and general discussion about topics here on discord, steam and reddit.

#

almost all of the changes they did that people have been vocal against didnt even achieve what they wanted to to begin with, id take the judgement of most of the better players this game has over any dev atp

dusty stump
#

Most of the game's "major problems" are pretty invisible to the active playerbase. Because by being an active player you have already navigated them.

The "major problems" are encountered by the players who download the game, play a game or five, and then uninstall. TC have been saying since Steam Fest 2024 that they have a serious onboarding problem. That was shown when they spent BANK on marketing during the "open beta" launch and the players did not stick around.

woeful fulcrum
#

its not invisible to me, its not invisible to most players

#

Every single stream during 1.0 launch literally had people in chat clowning the game for now being "p2w" be it true or not, we peaked on 10k players and all of them were gone after a few days

#

with most of the high mmr queues dying in eu with people hitting master

#

going back to 7+min queuetimes within 3 days

dusty stump
#

Because if TC is to be successful as a studio the playerbase they captured is miniscule compared to what they need to capture.

woeful fulcrum
#

youre right, we are all just delulu and dont understand that alot of what theyve been doing literally made it worse for those players youre talking about ontop of making existing players quit the game too

woeful fulcrum
#

The only reason they still went with it imo is literally how much of an echochamber the dev process was

#

testing was limited to a handfull of NA players, most of them having no clue of how the game will be played once people get past the early few game territory and start getting commited

#

Armory shouldve never even gotten past an idea

#

Youre not keeping people comitted by creating a system that never lets them experience being ahead

#

and especially makes it impossible to enjoy the game if youre not there day1 on top of that

#

and it still went through

#

thats the issue i criticize

#

it went through because of how glaringly obvious to most of us it was that they dont listen to feedback or had a good way of expecting the responses to systems that have never worked before despite being tried often

dusty stump
#

I mean, I don't think you are delusional. Your feedback and perspective is so inextricably tied to your own experiences. You don't have the broad perspective that it takes to understand the reason that TC is making the decisions they are and what problems they are attempting to solve and where they need to be at as a studio to support their devs financially and provide a return on the significant investment they received.

woeful fulcrum
#

guess i have to look at a broader perspective!

#

it got them less players and made people quit xD

#

but i guess people started spending more money because of that

dusty stump
#

Sure, in hindsight it is very easy to make accurate predictions.

woeful fulcrum
#

I think youre just talking out of ur ass just to be anti, you dont even argue any of the things i say, you just make another dumb statement about "looking at the broader perspective" and "youre not a dev"(which btw, i do code for alotta community projects and servers in milsim games so i have alot of experience dealing with feedback myself)

woeful fulcrum
north plank
#

in foresight I would've saved the game

woeful fulcrum
#

my goat

dusty stump
#

I am not sure there is a productive way to respond to that..

#

But whatever you think I guess

woeful fulcrum
#

its a joke.

lyric geyser
woeful fulcrum
#

Or if youre talking about my earlier response, how is it not

#

lol

#

you say i do it in hindsight, i say i did it before there even was a result to judge by

#

Im literally just telling you youre talking out of ur ass again like you have been this entire time

north plank
woeful fulcrum
upbeat bolt
#

Is joe tung even still in the project ?

#

is there still people in TC

woeful fulcrum
#

i didnt see him leave yet at least

#

Safelocked is also still there

#

theres some people still afaik

upbeat bolt
#

We don't know

#

As they fucking wont communicate anymore 🙂

lyric geyser
north plank
#

some ppl still interact with the devs but general interactions have def shrunk

lyric geyser
#

rated, who was supposed to be the communicator

#

dipped

upbeat bolt
#

Rated is an absolute fraud

north plank
woeful fulcrum
north plank
#

I think they r jaded with 1.0

woeful fulcrum
#

theyre only active on the PBE discord afaik

north plank
#

shrug

upbeat bolt
#

listenting to 10 people with a gigantic ego

#

surely this is fine 🙂

woeful fulcrum
#

because at least the game wouldve a direction

upbeat bolt
woeful fulcrum
#

but they dont wanna listen at all

#

theres so many things that are suggested and take weeks to be implemented its crazy

upbeat bolt
north plank
#

naw its like 3 ppl who have been giving reasonable feedback since open beta, but at the end of the day its up to the devs to listen to what

lyric geyser
#

completely unrelated

#

wtf does faker even pick now

#

legit no playable midlaners left

north plank
#

idk bro im going to sleep before I see more

woeful fulcrum
#

Its basically the same we had before very slow patch cycles with them still argueing wether theyre wrong about things even tho theyve actively made the game worse for a year now

north plank
#

depressed

woeful fulcrum
upbeat bolt
#

faker on renata mid

#

mygoat

woeful fulcrum
#

and most of the time they dont listen to anyone for weeks

upbeat bolt
#

anivia sheeeesh

upbeat bolt
woeful fulcrum
#

with how slow theyre to adapt to meta at all its not 2 weeks man

#

it feels like we sometimes wait a month or 2 until something people are vocal about gets adressed

upbeat bolt
#

true

lyric geyser
#

or shiv meta

woeful fulcrum
#

fuck the oath meta bro the vivetank meta lasted for a fucking month

#

t he shiv meta lasted for 6 weeks

#

the Oath zeph meta almost lasted for 6 months

#

and zeph still just oneshots u

lyric geyser
#

bro but he's wholesome healer

#

i swear

#

same for beebo

#

he was allowed to be thanos during whole open beta

#

bcs

woeful fulcrum
#

yep beebo blink was in the game for so long that it made me lose faith completely way before 1.0 dropped

lyric geyser
#

tonk tonk haha wholesome

#

bro i've seen faker miss like 5 cannons this series

stone thorn
# dusty stump Most of the game's "major problems" are pretty invisible to the active playerbas...

I think it's almost the opposite
I think the problems new players ran into were rarely understood by new players to articulate what is actually making them not enjoy the game, and in trying to listen to them with what they thought were issues w/ stuff like resurgence they ended up just making the game more miserable for newer players, not less
By trying to make characters more approachable they made many of them harder to understand what you're meant to be mastering

dusty stump
#

Oh absolutely agree with that

#

I don't think the active playerbase has a better perspective on the issues that are keeping players from onboarding though

woeful fulcrum
#

I think they have a better perspective than the devs at least

#

thats the entire point i made.

#

Its not that making the game for newer players suck, its that most of the changes made for them made the game worse for everyone

#

and that while a ton of the top was saying that

#

if one side is right most of the time and the other is wrong, you should start listening more. There is a ton of ways to make onboarding better and make people understand why we love this game so much

#

But making the game worse for everyone is not one

dusty stump
#

Oh absolutely not- Players have a much worse perspective than devs on what could assist players during the onboarding process. Their feedback is focused on their perspective and attempting to view it from someone who has never played the game is not going to work.

This is pretty consistent through all game design spaces when it comes to feedback.

woeful fulcrum
# dusty stump Oh absolutely not- Players have a much worse perspective than devs on what could...

ill try one more time
Players say dont do this devs this bad
Devs do it anyways because devs say "this not for u this for new player"
Players say this bad for new player
patch hits
Turns out bad for new player overall and new player will end up having to deal with it from the perspective of someon that already quit the game because of it
New player still runs into issues that player already pointed out and didnt get adressed for months yet already.
New player quits and player that pointed out stuff quits
But you still think that the players dont know anything

#

The perspective doesnt matter when the attempts made are done in a way that most people playing ur game can predict that its not going to bring you the results ure hoping for or even bringing u results opposite of what ure trying to achieve

dusty stump
#

If Joe Tung just slid in your dms every week the game would be 1 mil ccu right now I guess...

woeful fulcrum
#

Again, im not talking about just me, im talking about the community being vocal about most of these things before the patches dropped in majority

#

I never said me outside of the times you accused me of speaking in hindsight

upbeat bolt
#

Join arkheron train guys

pliant crag
#

It doesnt take a game dev to see how adding gacha to your item system would be a bad idea

woeful fulcrum
#

the camera in arkheron makes me dizzy ngl

#

xD

woeful fulcrum
pliant crag
#

Same for stuff like mmr reset on ob and ranked being the same as normal q

lyric geyser
upbeat bolt
lyric geyser
#

feels legit ancient after playing supervive

upbeat bolt
#

just because TTK is longer does not mean it's more boring

lyric geyser
#

it's like i'm playing a turn based game

pliant crag
#

Doesnt take a game dev to see adding a char with ranged dunk with 0 yaw lock after u made half the map abyss would be bad

upbeat bolt
#

atleast their community manager are active hihi

lyric geyser
pliant crag
#

Yeah

#

Doesnt take a game dev to see why vive infusor should have an icd or why buffing shiv would be bad with armory

lyric geyser
#

i think jin has never been stronger than 1.0, at least since i've been playing, and he was still a shitter compared to wukong/shiv

lyric geyser
#

and they decided to just

#

completely forget why it was an issue to begin with

pliant crag
#

There are so many examples of shit even i could predict and idk shit about game dev

woeful fulcrum
#

The craziest thing from thast time to this day is still that they claimed that the top playerbase wouldnt like running into the best squads so a queue that actually matchmade the best people into eachother without restrictions wouldnt be something we want, although almost everyone was still playing during that time in the top playerbase more actively than anyone else, so instead of restricting matchmaking to have a clear line for top players, they just cooked the queue for everyone, because restrictions lowered the avg mmr of lobbys enough for there to not be top lobbys anymore but it made it alot lot lot more likely for newer players to be matched into a game with a ton of master+ duos

pliant crag
woeful fulcrum
#

That was one of the earliest changes that made the game worse for everyone

pliant crag
woeful fulcrum
#

But yes the devs know better! Luke said so!

lyric geyser
#

but i was a noob so i don't remeber

#

remember

woeful fulcrum
#

yeah it used to have internal cd way back then

#

it was also alot weaker in general because hp values were lower and ttk was faster

#

so vive infusor was more of an out of combat heal

lyric geyser
woeful fulcrum
#

and less of a mid combat vivetank

lyric geyser
pliant crag
woeful fulcrum
#

No no

#

restrictions are bad overall.

upbeat bolt
#

old item+power system was infinitely more enjoyable than armory anyway

woeful fulcrum
#

with how they work

lyric geyser
woeful fulcrum
#

If restrictions would force the matchmaking to only put master+ players together it could work

#

but since it doesnt

lyric geyser
#

if we just had some of the current items as powers

pliant crag
woeful fulcrum
#

since you can silver and bronze players into ur master+ duo

#

the lobby mmr is so fucked

upbeat bolt
pliant crag
#

When it was squad that is

lyric geyser
#

and some more upgrades for each item

woeful fulcrum
#

that everyone can get into ur lobby

#

Thats my point

#

even back then

#

top lobbys had silvers in them post restrictions

#

It didnt fix the issue, it made it worse.

#

By ALOT

pliant crag
lyric geyser
#

i hate english cast so much

upbeat bolt
#

+made people quit because they could not play together

woeful fulcrum
#

thats why when we had a discussion thread about it i was asking the dev in there over and over again to share actual data on games because everyone atp knows that it diluted lobby mmr

pliant crag
#

If matchmaking worked restrictions would be fine

lyric geyser
upbeat bolt
#

french cast is goated, we're so lucky

lyric geyser
#

why do

#

coaches have

#

that stupid fucking book

pliant crag
#

None of it matter anymore tho

upbeat bolt
#

to make them look smart

lyric geyser
#

the draven ban holy shit

pliant crag
#

Syb 1k playerbase they might as well just get rid of it

lyric geyser
#

kai'sa is still playable

upbeat bolt
#

test2331313 is right

pliant crag
#

No shit

upbeat bolt
#

lmao

pliant crag
#

Kt cant win

lyric geyser
#

instalock galioincoming

pliant crag
#

Who would buy kt skins

lyric geyser
#

holy pantheon open

#

true

upbeat bolt
#

YUYYYYYYY

pliant crag
#

People didnt even know they were in worlds before winning against geng

lyric geyser
#

there's camel open

#

galio camel pantheon

pliant crag
#

Yeah camille

#

Xayah something bot now

lyric geyser
#

yorick kinda thanos vs camille i'm not really sure

upbeat bolt
#

heimerdinger

#

i beg

pliant crag
#

Point is not the match up

#

Just ult ult ult unga bunga

lyric geyser
#

true

#

it's happening

#

doran is like

#

so good when he's on a diver

#

the ambessa game one was legit all him

woeful fulcrum
#

its cannonball

#

go #🍹│off-topic for worlds talk tho boys cmon

left sentinel
stone thorn
woeful fulcrum
#

I cant remember them being wrong about the new player changes once ngl

#

because most of them were just shit

dry compass
#

My personal take is removel of all the sandbox aspects killed the game

stone thorn
#

There was one patch early in playtest I remember that everyone swore maxing/upgrading boots was really good & meta
But boots were bugged and actually gave 0 extra Movespeed per level, people just gaslit themselves into thinking they could dodge better with higher level boots

dry compass
#

If you look at old zodag v new zodag

#

It’s like completely different game

#

Fighting style play making ect

stone thorn
#

I think players were probably right about things like 20-30% of the time, I really think it's mostly on the Devs

#

It's pretty bad when the players see something obvious and the Devs go another way though

woeful fulcrum
dry compass
#

I could have played 5000 hours of beta supervive and still had more to learn

woeful fulcrum
#

I wrote alot so i dont blame u for not reading all that, youre obviously right that most of the more complex meta related stuff was wrong too, one of the worst things on launch, gunner, was literally completely overlooked by active players too for example

#

Youre right about that overall

stone thorn
woeful fulcrum
#

XD

stone thorn
#

She popped off and everyone still swore by oath

#

TBF oath was probably still better

#

But Hudson was definitely very good

woeful fulcrum
#

oath was overlooked but not really picked up enough to look that broken until aidan made it look op no?

#

Aidan literally 1v4d as soon as restrictions dropped

stone thorn
#

No they literally just made oath thanos one patch

#

And everyone picked him up

dry compass
#

Another issue that soured my taste over time is them lobotomy nerfing characters

woeful fulcrum
#

yeah could be

woeful fulcrum
stone thorn
#

It was when they made his e heal his shield and gave him 7 toughness

woeful fulcrum
#

they never actually fixed problems

left sentinel
woeful fulcrum
#

HAHAHAHA

left sentinel
#

🚬

pliant crag
stone thorn
#

He was literally unkillable and they had also kept all his damage

dry compass
left sentinel
#

We are all unc now

dry compass
#

They ether move to a new character quit

#

Or become a meta slave then quit later

left sentinel
#

Ok not all im lying theres about 3 og people left

#

Im sorry for lying

woeful fulcrum
#

or the buffs afterwards

#

its fine to kill a character to give urself time to fix the issues

left sentinel
woeful fulcrum
#

but if you just revert the changes to reintroduce the problem

#

what are u doing??

pliant crag
stone thorn
#

A good example though of how balance was hard for TC I can talk more about was myth - there was a really long time after chain was removed where everyone thought myth was a pretty low tier character, it was prettymuch just me and fatestrikes picking her because we thought she was cool more than anything - and in tournaments I'd try my best to win I would often pick oath anyway because myth was just not it really

pliant crag
#

Never looking into whats causing the problems

stone thorn
#

But at that time myth was actually by far the highest win rate character in the game at low elo, mid elo, and high elo

left sentinel
#

Yes...

stone thorn
#

And a big reason why was just how she was able to run away from fights so easily lol so you just wouldn't lose the game early much at all if you had a myth

#

But she didn't really bring that much to the table outside of that

#

So like how do you make that character better without gutting ghost walk?

left sentinel
#

Rain of arrows....

stone thorn
#

It's honestly pretty hard and kinda sucks for TC because everyone says she's bad but they can't just go "ok she's just stronger now" because she would be a menace

#

It's honestly pretty impressive to me that when she did get buffs she was only as dominant as she was lol it could have been way worse

woeful fulcrum
#

tbf people also needed ages to adapt to the lower ttk

dry compass
#

Lower ttk cross the board instead of just nerfing damage outliers still seems insane to me

stone thorn
#

Anyway TLDR player feedback was often pretty wrong, incomplete, or only really pointing out problems and not able to design working solutions
It wasn't really on the players anyway though, you wouldn't expect people to do that, because they aren't game designers
It was always on TC to do, and players definitely helped as much as they could

hushed coyote
#

OP post also felt like a nothingburger to me (only read unedited version) but idk the guy and his impact. Just seemed somewhat self-centered or self-celebratory. "I almost saved the game but the devs were cooked, sorry I cant save the game anymore because now I will succeed with my startup instead".

I get wanting credit, I have an ego too, it's just funny to see when its so overt and unselfaware 😂 .

As for the broader discussion, I get the argument of players often not having the bigger picture. But I do think many players were calling a lot of things quite well all throughout and many issues really didn't seem like they required geniuses to figure out.
I just remember reading patchnotes wondering how certain things could go through or not be fixed yet.

I'm thinking perhaps one of the biggest issues were lack of manpower (or allocation of manpower)? Their balancing just has never been good despite player feedback. They have been slow to respond forever and the big swings are often missing a lot of important points. I think there is probably just a lack of coherency and manpower in the team. The studio might just be too small, plus not managed well enough.

But then again idk them or their studio. Can only speculate as an outsider. And critizising a game/studio as a player is always much easier than actually making a game. (Which doesn't mean player perspectives/insights/feedback isn't still very valuable).

I think players often grow a little too arrogant when a game starts failing. But there is I think still a lot of truth to a lot of what has been said by many ppl in the community throughout the games lifespan.

dry compass
#

And the beta discord for people to talk to devs

stone thorn
#

Not to downplay but the Devs haven't really changed how much they talk to players they just changed the group/place

dusty stump
dry compass
pliant crag
#

-15% across the board instead of taclking the outliers

dry compass
#

Then not just stating to the public what’s on there mind I think is legit the biggest issue the game faced

#

Why did we need almost every drop of info via the grapevine

stone thorn
#

So they would talk to some people they used to talk to and those people would talk to everyone else

left sentinel
#

but where are the people they used to talk to

stone thorn
#

Mostly gone now lol

left sentinel
#

Exactly

dusty stump
#

I mean before HAM's PBE server there were other servers with which "top players" had direct contact with devs

#

It just didn't really matter that much

hushed coyote
# dry compass Ham was the reason we have a pbe now

Alright, thats great, I appreciate his contribution. But in every community there are contributors like that. They just typically dont position themselves as a messiah character, even if they kind of are. Thats why I said the post seems unselfaware of its narcissistic undertone. But yeah, not saying HAM did anything wrong. Just an unusual post in some ways.

stone thorn
#

Yeah they did a lot of focus groups

dry compass
left sentinel
#

Only server...

dry compass
#

Ham being friends with the former cto helped

dry compass
upbeat bolt
#

doran is on a mission to loose

left sentinel
#

I hope you all have your calendars marked for the 15th

stone thorn
#

There were other servers/group chats which were focus groups for players to talk with Devs directly / weekly since pretty early Loki

left sentinel
stone thorn
#

Pbe is probably the only time they've been particularly open about it though

pliant crag
stone thorn
#

Because I mean it feels pretty bad to most players to get told "you're not in the focus group"

upbeat bolt
left sentinel
#

The 15th just a week away, the 15th, just a week away, wom I'm so happy about this information can you believe it guys the 15th just a week away

stone thorn
#

Is the 15th jess's birthday?

left sentinel
#

Just look forward to this date

woeful fulcrum
upbeat bolt
left sentinel
#

Faker just clutched omg

woeful fulcrum
#

I didnt even apply for this pbe for example simply because i dont believe that the current situation will change with closed testing to begin with

#

imo it needs a balance

left sentinel
#

Who needs cannons anyway

stone thorn
woeful fulcrum
#

Focusgroups in combination with overall testruns for shit instead of pushing a meta progression system onto the entire playerbase with a stance that makes it seem like the devs dont want to just test something but actually push that as an overall change is a horribly bad look that couldve easily been avoided

#

but lets be real, the reason why that shit never made it out of the echochamber because they knew the response it wouldve gotten

#

it being so hated in china on top of that was just hilarious

woeful fulcrum
stone thorn
#

But also you are right, in the west a lot of our focus groups had mostly yes men towards the end lol

left sentinel
#

What happened on the east

stone thorn
#

They hated things

left sentinel
#

really

#

Are you sure

#

You could be spreading misinformation

stone thorn
#

I can't give much info BC zendrex got mad at me last time I yapped about it lol

left sentinel
#

Maybe he was right

stone thorn
#

But in the focus groups in the east they really hated like the new item system for open beta etc

#

And the map changes

pliant crag
woeful fulcrum
#

my criticizm isnt even towards the focusgroup but their handling of feedback overall. They went from closed testing with the entire playerbase being dedicated to give feedback (u literally had to free up time to be able to test to begin with with how limited they were)

#

to completely open feedback in focusgroups that let everyone in, so the feedback got diluted alot

#

Bishop rmb4 huge circle was a result of that

stone thorn
#

In the west I remember when we had the Resurgence playtest and it was overall very positive towards Resurgence which is crazy

woeful fulcrum
#

almost all top bishop players pointed out the issues immediately

left sentinel
#

Hmmmm

woeful fulcrum
stone thorn
#

I mean I don't think it's about openness/closedness

#

Just that really the devs should have come up with better ideas

#

Like why should they listen to me over someone else

#

Player feedback is always a mess

woeful fulcrum
#

Imo it always needed a balanced of a closed focus group with them prepping stuff to then have things tested in a broader testrun with a seperate gamemode like most games do it, that dont have the money/players for a fullon PBE

#

Like literally

#

just do what everyone else is doing if what ure doing is shit

stone thorn
#

The problem is there's no point doing that if they just rework old bad systems into similarly bad systems lol

woeful fulcrum
uncut patio
#

Close it like the reddit discussion!

stone thorn
#

Like the old item system was a mess
And so they wanted to do changes to fix it
But the changes were also really bad, probably even worse
So like what can do yknow?

woeful fulcrum
woeful fulcrum
#

and instead of just having a better environment for it, they just went fully closed and pushed all changes into the main patch without actually listening to what people had to say

stone thorn
#

Yeah idk it was kinda cooked

#

I gotta go now but Ty for the yap

woeful fulcrum
#

ty for the insights

#

literally shared more than the entire post of the guy acting like he was super deep in there did

wheat quail
#

true nothingburger of a post though

woeful fulcrum
#

yeah literally was my immediate response, if you talk the talk you gotta walk the walk

distant forge
#

try to not cocksuck urself challenge impossible

#

XD

wheat quail
#

especially if you're going to say "here's the truth"

#

like nobody could see this being from outside the vive council

stone thorn
woeful fulcrum
#

Its a crashout on the level of a wet paper towel tho, he revealed nothing and also created a new bad environment that has the same issues while hes claiming that he couldve fixed shit

#

Basically disrespecting all the efforts everyone else did within the community

wheat quail
#

but its like

#

all this shit was talked about in real time

#

by everyone

woeful fulcrum
#

Like most of the actual conversation happened around anion, safelocked and a few others ngl

#

and i really read almost everything going on the cords

#

mainly because someone will inevitably chimp out and we get a modhelp ping lol

wise forum
tiny sonnet
wise forum
#

I also didn't realise rated also left, all posts in announcements are now made by people no longer in Theorycraft BES_Dead

tiny sonnet
#

It's over

#

People can go back to league

#

And say that they could save supervive game

#

Also funnily enough the game wasn't good enough for new players to keep playing but veterans still will cope about saving it and making new players keep playing

wise forum
#

It feels like it would be a good move to unrelease the game and go back to closed tests.

tiny sonnet
#

i dont think the company is capable of doing that and ppl will still remember 1.0 and how badly it went

#

but then i understand ppl thinking they could save the game because some of it i would call common sense (prisma gacha) so they wouldnt have such dumb idea

woeful fulcrum
#

Yeah, i think that Anion is right about most meta things, but i literally cant remember a single system change made for newer players that was predicted wrongly by the majority

#

Like i think when ure going to change someone that affects everyone and everyone is telling u its shit

#

you should not do it

tiny sonnet
#

i always see riot thing where they buffed yi's range and thought its fine

#

i would say its same here

woeful fulcrum
#

Not without heavy testing beforehand on a different gamemode that can actually get proper feedback

tiny sonnet
woeful fulcrum
#

not just a closed test with yesmen telling u everything u do is great or a big playtest everyone is invited to where people can test it for 2 hours

woeful fulcrum
#

then there was reddit and steam discussions/reviews as a minor form of feedback on the side

#

like you can call that a small pop but u gotta get feedback somehow

tiny sonnet
woeful fulcrum
tiny sonnet
#

all forms and data base of it

woeful fulcrum
#

i think closed testing before open beta had a really good climate for it, because it was a small number of players that would often just agree on things with the devs

#

but leading up to next fest that connection felt like it was breaking apart honestly

#

Oath zeph meta was famously overlooked for hella long to the point people got genuienly mad about a meta persisting for the first time really

#

then the game dropped and most tests basically resulted in the devs just letting everyone in and using feedback forms like they used to in playtesting, which resulted in a large number of players that didnt really have a grand idea of how the game works giving feedback through the same channel as veterans, which imo was just a super bad idea looking at the results of these

tiny sonnet
woeful fulcrum
#

Like afaik the form for the revival changes had positive feedback

#

while most of the experienced players predicted issues with killfarming and chasing because of them already

#

and those issues that were raised super early basically never really got to the devs enough apparently

#

Most games that arent as big as league for example, have closed tests to prepare changes to have direct feedback and then do a prolonged test over a different gamemode for example, or another form is just having big changes seasonally every month or so so that there is a feel for players knowing next season is not gonna have all the bad stuff

#

but with supervive they just left the phase were they had super open testing were feedback got diluted basically

#

and then they went to the closed model of yesmen with a weird mix of players that imo had a terrible read on meta, its like they took all the people that were mostly wrong about the more complex stuff and those that dont care about competitive viability and put them in a group and called it a day

#

and everything that came out of that group got pushed into the maingame resulting in some of the longest lasting issues ive ever seen in a comp game ever before

#

Like that waas genuienly atrocious, beebo blink was in the game for longer than most metas survive in league of legends bro

#

and that means alot

tiny sonnet
#

idk oath still gamebreaking #oathyear

woeful fulcrum
#

and now we have another closed model but it felt like the devs are trying to keep things in the game for no reason for a prolonged time again not acting on outliers early enough

#

while also the game getting steered back to a baseboard of only dps

#

So idk whats going wrong or rather, i dont wanna share chats myself, since im not on the server myself, but its very obvious that the same issues prevail.

#

It just takes so fucking long

#

for ANYTHING to happen

#

and then most of the time its just a back and forth of repeating the same mistakes

#

From the little experience i have from arma modding and dealing with feedback there, its genuienly jarring to see how bad things go personally, because i genuienly believe not just me but alot of the people here could do a much better job

#

and none of us do it for a living

#

not to blame single devs or the team as a whole that directly but to put blame on how badly mismanaged things have to be for this to happen to begin with

#

I doint think any player wouldve saved the game either, dont misunderstand, i just think that what we have rn is so bad its hard for it to be worse if theres just 1 guy making descisions that just has a clear plan and actually listens

deep flower
tiny sonnet
#

It's the same people that brought the game down which is funny

pliant crag
#

but then we got another big change and we went back to 0

deep flower
floral furnace
#

vets killed this game

woeful fulcrum
woeful fulcrum
#

Hey we asked first xD

upbeat bolt
#

same for you

#

we legit dont know who you are

#

worked out well

#

lmao

#

But i'm not bragging

#

You are flexing the fact that you helped a a complete FAIL

#

Congratz mate

#

Then why would you help, once something is dead it is dead

#

Bro think he is him

#

ego trip right there

woeful fulcrum
#

Congrats, ive wrote why i think it wasnt really to the benefit of the game earlier u can read through that, the reason why i criticized ur initial post is pretty obvious too, you went in, acted like u have done so much and have a ton of background work done and all it did was carrying the embers of a dying flame to exhaust them completely. Yet you still claim you wouldve saved the game like noone else had any efforts made towards it

upbeat bolt
woeful fulcrum
#

Theres so many people that walked just so you could run for a few seconds and drop from exhaustion

#

thats why people clown on u and ur huge ego lol

#

Ive played since the playtesting days yes.

upbeat bolt
#

@weary beacon I hope your startup is not a game.

woeful fulcrum
#

I didnt even apply bro and when people asked if i want to join i declined, i wrote that earlier too.

#

I simply dont agree with the concept and dont think that if i can talk to devs directly and get their aknowledgment of issues in dms and still nothing changes, that magically a closed server would suddenly make them turn a 180 and fix issues that ive been calling out for for an entire year leading up to you even moving a finger.

#

And atp the pbe came to be i simply didnt want to put the energy into it again just to be disappointed again: which lets be real, literally happened.

#

Seeing what kind of person is "in charge" of it also simply proves everything i was thinking about it on top of seeing most of the things that go on on the server on top of that.

#

bro no offense, but whatever u did: the game is dead. Everyone that constantly made tournaments and was pushing content was doing more for this game than you.

#

thats also not for you to blame

#

you cant fix a communicational issue as a middleman if one party doesnt want to listen

#

Yes, again, with how ur initial post is written, you build up the expectation that u did alot and couldve saved the game, when again, all u did is taking over the last dying embers of the game to watch them extunguish themselves in the same way they slowly did leading up to the situation we are in.

#

Thats why ure getting criticized

#

not for the efforts u did but for how you present what u did as more than it actually ended up being.

upbeat bolt
#

there was one, literally called "feedback", but guess what ? They did not listen

woeful fulcrum
#

Please get ur focus off off now and think how many attempts we as a community have witnessed to fix issues while u werent here instead, with ur post ure basically just Airing out a huge "fuck you" to everyone else like the same issues that affect u rn didnt affect us before.

#

again, theres alotta people that spent countless of hours and hours to text and talk to devs, i have seen chats of people talking to devs directly with issues theyve found, seen the devs aknowledge the issues, seen them give them a variety of solutions to said issues to then get aknowledged again to then never get a response and the issue still being in the game today. And this isnt a single occurence

#

I have seen this in the hundreds atp#

#

i have personally had this kind of experience too.

#

the echochamber, yes we know, horrible way of doing it, just like i believe the current way is bad too.

#

not true either.

#

Safelocked has literally had her dms open for almost the entire time, most of the devs that were making characters were responding to dms even post 1.0 launch

#

it simply never made it past whatever structural issues they have

#

they still have those btw, i have seen a ton of popular opinions that never made it past the idea because the devs sometimes still seem to not want to change specific things just because they dislike the idea of whatever the result ends up being and even if issues get raised to a degree that it becomes unignorable it still takes ages for any changes to happen

#

we are basically back to what we had before 1.0 but with most changes just being reverts to how the game used to be

#

with the same issues i brouhgt up a year ago still not even getting close to being adressed

#

and the dev team is now 10 people

#

Yes, i still believe this.

#

Yeah he made like more than 20 today i think lol

#

paqt

upbeat bolt
#

is paqt the mutliple banned guy ?

woeful fulcrum
#

i cant aknowledge what i dont believe man, i truely believe that the efforts made through u will and have caused the same issues; you did the same shit that was tried before in blue to me

#

I think it ended up doing nothing

#

"werent" talking about the time leading up to 1.0

#

i never said didnt

#

"WERENT"

#

Using a past time form in text indicates that it was in the past and that something in the future of that statement caused a change

#

Literally implying that u do talk to them now, since i responded to ur post, thats what people do, they read and then criticize based on what theyve read.

#

You did talk to the devs when it was too late congrats, i still stand by the statement that all the people trying their best to talk to them before you did still exist and deserve credit

#

If you were here earlier, you wouldve ran in the exact same issues we did

#

You dont know

#

because u werent here.

#

according to urself.

#

Going and shitting on everyones efforts in hindsight without even knowing about the efforts made

#

huge dickmove

#

so i stick to my criticizm

#

get a grip.

#

Yes.

woeful fulcrum
#

Are u not natively english?

#

If thats how you want it worded, ill do it in the future, i still think that everything you did, did nothing.

#

You say that you couldve singlehandedly save the game if u were just earlier while being completely unaware of what has happened leading up to it

#

That again

woeful fulcrum
woeful fulcrum
#

after that rmb4 bishop change and the revival changes they did start doing closed testing leading up to 1.0

#

that was before 1.0

#

I know because alot of the closed testing dudes were very vocal about how good armory will be for the game

#

while alot of the people that were serious about the game called it the reason they quit

#

No it was because the concept was shit to begin with

#

Having a closed testing group to make changes leading up to a patch months away while basically putting the game on ice, to then push the changes directly into the maingame on ur last marketingpush before even knowing what ur main, loyal playerbase thinks about it

#

very dumb concept

#

It was.

#

They put the game on ice for like 3 months

#

yes but that only works if devs will agree to change things theyve been stubborn about previously, so far, 90% of the major changes are reverts, we are basically reverting the game to a state where all of the issues i mean also existed btw, its cool that the more recent major fuckups are finally getting fixed

#

but the game didnt drop 50k players because of these changes

#

it dropped 50k players before any of those have been made

#

Im not on the server but theres people i talk to that are that basically tell me about the same frustration they had for a year now, with the only difference being "but they revert this thing now" like we are at a point where things that were criticized heavily leading up to their release, still got released and then resulted in a loss of players because of it and performed poorly overall and now, after the game is basically dead, we finally go back on our past mistakes

#

the problem i have with this and why i call it nothing is simply because these things were needed way earlier, but what this game needed much more than all of this, is them not doing these things to begin with and focusing ressources on things that needed an eye on much much earlier.

#

When the game still had enough players, they introduced restrictions for example, which caused for overall lobby mmr to dillute enough to create lobbys with a wild mix of players since the highest rank average lobbys, are literally diluted immediately if you can have a silver and bronze in a team with 2 master+ players. This issue has been existing for so dammn long now and also has not seen a real fix (when the rank reset on 1.0 happened, the lobbys basically went back to this issue 3 days in as a high enough amount of high elo players hit high enough rank to be affected)

The efforts made were countless, theres been a ton of threads, a ton of feedback of how its done better and also the most recent thread during 1.0 launch where a dev claiming to be working on matchmaking also made an appeareance.
We basically got the same answer weve been getting for ages now, that high mmr players wouldnt be enough, which is easily disproved for eu and na by just looking at the master+ playerbase at that time (which exceeded at least 1 lobby i think actually 2 might remember wrongly) and that was at the start of the season.

The second claim was that Highmmr players wouldnt enjoy getting stomped by the 1 best team repeadetly so breaking down their strength to forcing them into solos, would result in a better experience game to game: Basically wrong, i dont think there is a single comp player that hates playing against someone better nor do i think that someone better stays better forever, a competitive environment creates better talent overall. And secondly makes 0 sense if you just look at what lobbys resulted in, top players farming lobbys because there are only a few other top players also forced into solos that they have to beat.

The third thing was what they did alot with all issues raised: They said they could do a highmmr queue at high pop time they never did this.

#

On top of all this that im saying about this issue, just logically, diluting the strength of top teams is one of the worst things you can do to the competitive integrity of ur game.

#

Everyone that can reach diamond can now reach master and everyone that couldnt reach diamond before now plays against people nerfed by being restricted

#

So everyone can reach master by just playing enough

#

this has been an issue with the ranked system since open beta

#

No fix. to this day.

#

This is one of the main appeals for comp games with repetitive cycles for most of the comp playerbase.

stone thorn
#

To be clear this server was a meme

woeful fulcrum
#

i mean almost everyone knows that by now with how the environment around 1.0 was

stone thorn
#

Most stuff with Devs and feedback was in just VCs and group chats

woeful fulcrum
#

I think if you restrict the queue has to be restricted from the getgo and with restrictions you need a much larger playerbase to sustain competitive integrity for ur ranked system

#

I agree, but i dont think this was a bigger issue than restrictions was

#

Youd be completely right if restricted players would only be matched into and with restricted players on the same level of restriction

#

Because then everyone will still get restricted, but at least they dont get worse lobbys than they did before getting restricted (early on)

#

the problem right now is that the lobbys stay competitive for like 2 days on wipe

#

and then it becomes an absolute shitshow

#

if you look at vods from day 1 and 2 on 1.0 drop, those are the most competitive ranked lobbys we had all year.

#

I only watched lemur on NA it looked competitive so dont quote me too much on it lol

#

but EU was pure comp

#

It can work.

#

Mind that this was during one of the worst metas we had too with shiv being mega broken and wukong being a headache

#

the map being absolute shit

#

and it was still more competitive than everything else, until people hit a mechanic they introduced to do something that actually resulted in the exact opposite.

#

This wont ever get fixed.

#

So its nice they revert, but think about someone that played this game before, they get interested again because they see a clip and wanna know whats up and then they hear that the same issues that plagued them before are still in and the game is basically like it used to be with a bit more content

#

Claiming that that did more than nothing to those people, is simply something i disagree with

#

I think all of this did nothing

stone thorn
#

The bonus was irrelevant - it only affected the shown rank, not the actual matchmaking
For matchmaking I'm pretty sure they just used a variant of TrueSkill 1

woeful fulcrum
#

yeah i heard this alot, which makes sense because i assume trueskill 1 is made for a much larger playerbase.

#

So it underperforming on lowpop to the point poeple can play a few games and then play with the top players makes sense-

stone thorn
#

It's not really specific for a player base size it's more a ranking system you can base matchmaking off of

woeful fulcrum
#

would like to hear ur theory on this since u have alot more knowledge on it than me

#

Ive also seen people be in these lobbys repeadetly even if they died on drop before going back to "normal" lobbys

#

talking about open beta drop btw

#

not 1.0

#

1.0 actually seemed to work well until day 3

stone thorn
#

Smurfing was a big issue so they place users with high variance at low MMR to try and detect smurfs, if you're performing very well then you'll go high MMR very fast
Unfortunately the game is poor at sorting and reflecting skill in truly low MMR lobbies, so some players will get placed very high very fast
Additionally there's straight up just issues with low playerbase + high skill variation, it's just hard to find a match, and queue times are expected (by players) to be ~45 seconds for low rank players in br games, so they have to try really hard to just make any kinda game they can

#

1.0 had the same system as open beta they just didn't do an MMR reset

woeful fulcrum
#

I was thinking as much, but what makes me wonder honestly is how they couldnt isolate the top bunch more, like either u dont have enough players for it at top mmr, or them not getting into a topmmr game isnt going to affect queue times significantly no?

woeful fulcrum
#

since thats the only case of high mmr lobbys actually working as they should

stone thorn
#

Something I suspect happened with Resurgence is once a game is made, it doesn't kick people out of the lobby for 5-10 minutes (because no one loses)
This means once a set of games are fired off, there's new people coming out of their previous games to make a new game with, so your queue starts getting 3-5 minutes long even if you're low mmr

#

This means the matchmaker is trying desperately to find any game but the low MMR lobbies all tend to over time get bunched up

#

This is complete speculation but it kinda feels like how lobbies ended up getting fired off

#

Ultimately no one really knows what exactly was happening but really it's just a kinda unfixable problem without like 100k CCU

#

this game just wasn't allowed to be a BR if it wasn't going to be successful

woeful fulcrum
#

Which would be another issue, that couldve been fixed instead of implementing restrictions or not limiting off higher mmr matchmaking, ive had similar theories, although i never thought about queues getting delayed by these issues tbh, but ive never really found a logical reason for the "fixes" they chose, i always felt like theres a ton of other things that couldve been done and they never did and were satisfied with something that simply didnt work

#

like most of the issue this game has

stone thorn
#

Wasn't it nidhogg who pushed for queue restrictions back in open beta?

#

I feel like he was the main guy pushing for that fix

woeful fulcrum
#

Wouldnt surprise me he has had most of the worst takes and has been impossible to argue with for so long now

#

Like if that guy had any say in how this game was being made back then, it doesnt surprise me anymore

#

but its still the devs fault for listening to that and not reacting when it simply didnt work and not listening to any further feedback

#

I always felt like they listened to the wrong guy a few times

#

or wrong guys rather

#

and then just decided that they shouldnt listen anymore tbh

#

And just do their own thing and ignore all feedback for a while

#

except to those in their little closed testing bubble

#

and they slowly started only listening to those that agreed with them

#

Mainly because of how common this is within most of the games i watched fail

#

Oh also if HAM is still reading, restrictions are just one of many issues that i think never really got adressed.

#

its just one i have the most of a response from devs publicly on so i can actually talk about how their response didnt make much sense too.

#

I still remember how i was asking for them to share data about how people would quit if they are up against top teams if theyre top players themselves and what playercount at the top actually looked like on 1.0 etc. never really got a response it felt like i got completely ignored the moment i started actually being critical of the information provided, since it simply didnt reflect the environment at all, basically making it impossible to actually argue against these points at all, defaulting the entire discussion into "restrictions are nessecary"

#

This is also something that happened with almost everything ive seen, except if it was safelocked discussing things publicly, but she would just say that shed have to check instead but it rarely ever resulted in the discussion actually moving forward, which i dont blame her for, she usually was writing down a ton of points daily, she cant do everything on her own

keen berry
keen berry
upbeat bolt
stone thorn
#

Yeah but he would chat with Devs a lot and obviously streamed

floral furnace
#

vets really killed this game omg

#

sorry I like memes 😔

#

Shrike and Hudson killed this game if we’re being real

#

That’s my truth nuke

keen berry
#

He wasn't initially in charge of the marketing, or the player dev interactions he was litterally just the creator communicator, but got thrown into the other positions because of people leaving

#

Dude paqt stfu

#

You also think I shouldn't have been a featured creator, like I didn't earn that honor, and completely misunderstood what the featured creator was for

north plank
keen berry
#

I still dont think you understand what the featured creator was for

#

But okay, guess my content being loved by a lot of people meant nothing

woeful fulcrum
#

yeah was good to clarify that ty

floral furnace
#

oop

deep flower
keen berry
#

Well yea, I have a job, and most of the effort in my content comes from writing, but I never wanted to be top 10 creators, the program was litterally just to promote creators who make content about the game.

woeful fulcrum
#

alotta people forget that he barely had anything to pick up from since pwyff was MIA way before he got that job

#

It wasnt his fault

#

like you really cant give him any blame without expecting him to shift mountains with something he didnt have alot of experience in afaik

#

I believe u but from dming with some of the devs, he was one of the few not trying to hide it.
The others would literally tell me that they agree with the issues i brought up often and basically nothing ever happened.

#

Like maybe they all just have dementia

#

but i think most of them never took us seriously.

#

thats the only way i can single out stuff personally, obviously the restriction talk i had earlier literally has the same issue but in a public channel with most participants

#

But id rather take personal experience to explain that i feel like a person acts a certain way, everything else is unfair.

#

this is stuff you shouldve dropped on ur initial post

#

thats the kind of expectation u set up when choosing that title.

#

Thats fair, but this is why youre getting criticized so much.

#

yep because ure dropping the truth now, from ur pov ofc but still

#

everyone can tell theres more

#

the problem is you didnt tell us anything

#

Esp if you go on to say that u couldve done more earlier without saying any of this

#

yea, If you had that level of comms with the devs maybe, not sure if you couldve pulled it off earlier since it took ages for them to do this to begin with.
But if they had anyone to talk to to fix issues people bring up like i did earlier.

#

This game wouldnt have failed im 100% certain

#

it was a good game

#

it just got increasingly worse over time.

#

and if you look at something that is more shit than when u quit playing it

#

you will never come back

#

and if you look at something youve heard about but didnt try ages ago that now has a gacha meta progression mechanic u wont even give it a try.

#

All of this is so glaringly obvious for most people that its baffling that it still happened.

#

its so backwards too, wouldnt u try to publish something that looks good to people outside of it if youre planning to market ur game again

#

thats why i said it doesnt matter, there has to be structural issues within the team that makes these descisions that cause this, theres no way noone thought about it or noone raised any issues with the idea

#

unless they all left, stopped talking, or simply dont get respected enough for them to listen

#

and on top of that they had an echochamber as their only means of testing these changes beforehand

#

thats why i still think current pbe wont work well. i really liked it back then when they used to basically have a ton of ideas and then basically hit us with it and let us give feedback on it, a bunch of stuff that basically wasnt even close to being implemented

#

then wed have a few hours to test and gave feedback

#

and then next playtest what was perceived as good was in the game

#

That worked well because the playerbase was small and testing was closed so their entire testing group was dedicated players that would show up to a test

dusty stump
woeful fulcrum
#

and all of them would get to give feedback on this

dusty stump
woeful fulcrum
#

and they had small focus groups of dedicated players that would make the descisions in these wilder tests with the devs resulting in what everyone got to test.

#

They basically kept the focus group and completely removed the testing of things that are perceived either way within in the focusgroup to a broader group, even now.

#

Instead everything gets patched in and stays in the game for months now

#

hence why i said having a seperate gamemode to test things like trios, restrictions etc makes alot more sense. esp because it generates alot more interested than just another patch.

#

and then strictly make descisions based on strong feedback instead of just what the devs think its right and half of it ends up wrong lol

rapid lance
# woeful fulcrum the echochamber, yes we know, horrible way of doing it, just like i believe the ...

aight im just gunna talk specifically on what that server was about, why it was made, and some crashing out along the way ofc.

that server was originally made because i wanted there to be a place to have actual discussions on the game, because the moderators in this server had little to 0 power and tc failed to have any sort of place to have reasonable discussion/feedback for the game. example, i specifically remember a thread where justjob was posting for ranked feedback. within a couple hours it had 150 messages. there was maybe some hope something i said would be read, so i posted my 2c and went off to work. when i checked like 6 hours later, the thread had ~1200 messages. do you know how insane that is. why on earth would anyone even try to post a message there. its not going to get read. theres just people arguing back and forth over the same dumb stuff forever, mods do nothing about problematic people or they cant, and slowly because of behavior like this and other toxic behavior in this server, people slowly stopped interacting.

you try to have a reasonable discussion, only to have one of the notable "endless arguers" appear and either ping reply everything you say, or do so to a different arguer and any discussion your thread is instantly dead. i can name so many of these people easily, who had 1000s of messages in the server, who often had absolutely nothing to justify anything they said, and i would frequently make them argue with themselves for fun. this kind of behavior is incredibly toxic, yet its not against the rules.

you try to have a reasonable discussion, only to get dogpiled as 7 different people jump in out of nowhere to ping reply you, with 1/2 of them you don't even know saying insane stuff. ive seen this happen with mods watching it happen, participating in it and they do NOTHING. again, why on earth would i ever want to give feedback in this kind of environment.

there are so many examples or other problematic toxic behaviors, but it slowly drove out any reasonable discussion that occured in this discord to where people just didn't ever, they talked in vcs with other players, or dms to devs.

#

so i wanted a place where these players if they wished to could have discussions. it was made to be very clean, not many people, and then devs were invited incase they wanted to ask us anything. the server ended up being barely used because tc locked the game for 2 months after it was made but thats okay.

but is a place thats an "echo chamber" where u can actually talk (even though we had people with very differing opinions on many things) really so terrible, combined to the alternative where there is little to no discussion or productive feedback going on in the tc disc, and the creator cord being a bunch of high ego nepo ppl who get listened to/interacted with over the rest of the playerbase.

and even so, despite being one of these "high elo high elo gatekeepy toxic echo chamber" individuals, i was probably the person who argued the most for the new player experience out of any player that im aware of? because while i cannot empathize with someone who can spend their entire life and only hit masters in league of legends, i can see that there are problems with the way lokivive was designed as a core game which created really toxic problems for players of every skill bracket, but especially new players. ones prevented from communicating in this kind of gatekeepy echo chamber type place.

how i would play the game and pubstomp players for hours and hours on end. how i would get lvl 5 and have a completely free fight against anyone who wasnt level 5. how abusive the red key system was for creating the most disgusting unfavored boring fights in existance. how matchmaking made there be 100s of players in the OB launch with >50% winrates. how i matched lemurs team for ~7 hours straight on day 1 of SNF and either of our teams won EVERY SINGLE ONE of those lobbies. yes, anyone who matched into our game was given a guaranteed loss. no exceptions. and i would remember running into the same people who got into our games multiple times in a row.

how the game was designed in such a way so that the best players were actively incentivized to hunt down the worst players as fast as possible to snowball so they could hunt down other players faster for kill points. becaues if you didn't do so, the other good team in your lobby would do the same thing.

how i would see people posting in the discord, in twitch chats how they are trying to dodge the high ranking players. cause as soon as you are slightly above "i match with bots" skill level, you get sent into "feed high rank players rp" lobbies to get endlessly farmed. because the game had such terrible mm and systems which

#

i repeatedly would talk about how the solo queue experience in this game was miserable. how the new player experience was really unfinished. combined with the above snowballing&matchmaking problems, it is no wonder why people dropped the game extremely fast. the high ranking playerbase actively ruined the lobbies for everyone else, with our instant queues into 0-1 recognizable teams per lobby, that we farm super fast and gain our quick rp. surely this was healthy for the game.

but yeah echo chambers from toxic elitist players very bad. in the end though, nothing mattered.

because i'm not a dev, and nobody here talking is a dev. we do not get to implement changes. it is purely on TC as to why the game is in its current state. when you have things like TC blaming the playerbase for giving them bad reads on how the games reception was going to be(we were rioting for months before on how terrible the new item system was and, and the veteran players had been rioting for a long time on how terrible mm was)

giving feedback is only relevant if the developer intends to listen to it and do something about it. which has been shown repeatedly that there is very little interest in doing so from tc. and tc will do what they think is best despite all warnings from every other game that has existed, and all the warning signs coming from all the players who have seen these things happen before in other games. they had a grand vision they wanted to create, and their vision got them a game which SUPERflopped on two seperate releases.

and maybe tc is listening to feedback at this point i wouldnt know. but its a little too late, and the remaining players other than a few are ones i would never consider listening to and i do not trust a single remaining decision maker at TC to know how to fix this game. but maybe the remaining ppl can scrap the brand, keep the important stuff for this game, release it as a new genre and there is some players to be had.

we heard you, we worked on it, we cooked. we needed to simplify even more. w viversoup

woeful fulcrum
# rapid lance i repeatedly would talk about how the solo queue experience in this game was mis...

I think echochamber was the wrong word, no place can exist without varying opinions i just simply think that the situation was cooked from the start. I talked about it more earlier, but i think that devs were really selective about feedback to begin with causing this, not the discord server. Was pretty disrespectful of ur intentions thats my b im sorry
I still think that narrowing testing down like that worsened the situation alot, not because of you either i think it was a really dumb descision of the devs to do very small scale testing to then roll out everything on the next patch like they still do. I wrote more about it earlier but i think there shoulve been more big scale tests for big system changes (like armory) in a seperate gamemode to get feedback before they went all in on these ideas and communicated that its the big new thing here to stay.
None of this is ur fault in the end, i blame whatever problems they had within the team for this mainly

dusty stump
median linden
whole fulcrum
woeful fulcrum
floral furnace
weak agate
# floral furnace I told you guys vets killed this game, especially during armory launch

honestly like, what are vets suposed to do, like i know some of them has being toxic but, we all just played our game, in the best way possible, i think no one ever made some ''oh lets chase the new players so we can snowball and win points''
i think every game that has ''early acess'' and a lots of ''betas/alphas'' will suffer of that in someway. ppl who spend a lot of time and effort in the game before it releases , and when it releases those ppl will eventually crush every new player and create a bad environment

floral furnace
#

vets should’ve showed sportsmanship and community but rank points more important in their sub 400 peak game

#

I HATE VETS

deep flower
#

I don't think they "killed" the game but they definitely hurt it. The prisma farming that happened hurt noobs. there was a lot of toxicity within the comp scene, tho unsure how bad it is rn, thos will just push away people who were thinking of joining it.

The devs in the end made the big fucl ups tho. So regardless of how much they hurt the game, the devs hurt it more.

drifting lantern
#

Qued with me, added on disc, invited to discords

#

Then spent a bunch of time coaching in the 5 scrim discords

#

Idk its not their fault devs can't make ranked work

#

It's brutal but nothing can save supervive besides Mr best streaming it every day for a month

stuck plinth
#

The supervive identity crisis didnt help either

#

The og marketing attracted a certain type of player and then they 180d to attract a whole new type of player and they didnt mix well

#

Combined with armory shenanigans and u make a very poor first impression for a casual hopping in for 1.0

heavy thorn
#

so much ego and so much low iq in this thread soo fkn funny men autismo beast is amused

drifting lantern
#

Reply to them so I can see

heavy thorn
#

its too much scrolling im on phone

drifting lantern
#

Oh man they gonna think u cappin

heavy thorn
#

yeah im transgender also dont bully me or i call the cops

drifting lantern
#

WAT

noble hinge
hard wyvern
#

Ppl still think what killed the game is armory its funny

heavy thorn
# drifting lantern WAT

Idk sometimes i just make like a trans joke purely for the sake that i know ppl get easily offended and i think even the lighter jokes are often a no go. But i dont care n i think its funny LULE

#

i know some

#

chill trans ppl tho nothing against it shrug

dusty stump
#

What is the joke

pulsar minnow
pulsar minnow
dusty stump
#

I don't understand the joke

drifting lantern
heavy thorn
hard wyvern
heavy thorn
#

for example maybe yea

#

when u make outplay ingame and say bro i just fkn transformed insane comeback and im not even trans idk sometimes i will find smthng like that funny other times i make diff joke or comment

#

ppl just take it too seriousr breh

dusty stump
#

What is the joke there

#

Like transformers, transformed, trans?

#

You transformed from playing bad to playing good like a transformer but you aren't trans?

#

Is that the joke?

pulsar minnow
dusty stump
#

No clue

wheat quail
#

why do you do this in every thread xd

dusty stump
#

The game's problems were much more fundamental than armory. Armory did not impact the game's fundamental problems nor provide a novel gameplay loop that made the underlying problems more palatable.

hard wyvern
#

when if anything removing armory minimum didnt stop the bleed of players nor slowed it

wheat quail
#

armory was the biggest fail in 1.0

wheat quail
#

idk why you keep saying this

hard wyvern
#

if u mean of the 1.0 changes then could be, but with game base and inherent problems releasing without armory would've had the same result

#

so you cant say armory was the biggest fail as armory was tied to an already bound to fail game

wheat quail
#

I can say that within the changes that were added to the game, armory was the most significant waste of time and failed by every metric to do what it was intended for

wheat quail
dusty stump
#

I mean, I am the #1 sykii arguer and I agree with him here.

hard wyvern
#

like, yeah armory can be objetively/subjetively bad for the core audience of the game and its competitive purposes but game has failed due to deeper problems

wheat quail
#

Agree on what though, because he's arguing against some amorphous being

#

never quotes someone who claims what he is arguing against

#

just asserts it

noble hinge
#

Armory was a big fail cus it didnt do anything but anger people.
Game would have failed regardless but armory took time to make when they could have been working on an actual working solution.
Only thing worse could have been literally nothing

hard wyvern
noble hinge
#

There is probably an argument its worse then nothing actually

pulsar minnow
hard wyvern
#

on the thread there were some statements pointing to armory, I wanted to add the exta insight

wheat quail
#

Of course you don't lol

pulsar minnow
#

ALL IM GONNA SAY, WHERE ARE THE PEIOPLE WHO SAID TC KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING AND TO HAVE FAITH??? HUH????

wheat quail
#

You just state a position that nobody is taking and then dip when someone points that out

noble hinge
#

Think most of them have silently left. Or changed their standing on the matter

dusty stump
#

The concept of armory is not entirely bad, it just doesn't really have a place in the genre mashup they had nor was the game's gameplay loop modified enough to support it.

If we squint, armory is sort of like an extraction genre concept where players can get stronger game to game without feeling unfair.

This + card game collection mania feel like the particular inspirations.

In my opinion, they half committed to the concept and did not include ways to make it feel fair.

hard wyvern
noble hinge
#

Half commitment to concepts is a tc classic

wheat quail
#

Agreed, the concept of armory belongs in a PvE game where the retention mechanic / gameplay loop is about actually gearing your character up

hard wyvern
#

the whole project is a half commitment

wheat quail
#

it doesn't work in a moba/br

noble hinge
#

Maybe it could have if they commited and found a working solution.

dusty stump
#

TC just made a gamble on their steam next fest + monthly playtest numbers without understanding how the grouping of people willing to try new games differs from the grouping people who play games. When their gamble failed and these audiences proved very different, they started scrambling to try to fix the problems without going dark for another year and a half to try to really dig into the issues.

wheat quail
#

I haven't heard a good suggestion for making it work

noble hinge
#

But its a game of if's, but's and when's

wheat quail
#

and now they have a fate worse than multiversus

#

because this will always stick on their name

dusty stump
#

Maybe, maybe not. Hard to say

wheat quail
#

in the immediate at least

#

whenever they release their next game

#

people will remember them from this

#

unless their next game is really that good

noble hinge
#

If they are still standing at that point

wheat quail
#

and based off how they handle feedback

hard wyvern
wheat quail
#

I can't see that happening

#

even if i want to

dusty stump
#

I think the bigger problem is that it is likely that many of the devs who were working on Supervive may have had equity / profit based compensation packages and their base compensation was below industry averages as a result. Given they spent a few years under industry averages, they are likely less motivated to continue to stick around once the gamble failed once.

#

So it leads to a talent drain

#

And then a spiral downhill

wheat quail
#

makes sense

#

weren't there recent layoffs aswell?

dusty stump
#

But I do not have any proof to support that

#

I am just grasping at straws

#

Yes, to my knowledge there were layoffs

noble hinge
#

Im still wondering if they pocketed the budget.
Talked to a vet on the industry and he suspected that they had people pocket 500k anual sallaries and ate the budget that way.

Apparently a modern trend in game dev.
Ex big company devs form a studio -> get investor backing via appeal to seniority -> give them selves massive sallaries for a few years -> churn out a mid product -> dissapear from the market

hard wyvern
#

I mean several devs were good, I dont think their salaries were not deserved

#

some of em got re-hired from riot

#

sometimes projects fail or they dont manage to build a good enough game

#

the trend I find is that most of the "build with the community" games, fail to be a success

#

arkheron numbers were super bad, the MOBA extraction died on 2 weeks

noble hinge
#

Might just be a thing with sallaries cus here in the north game dev sallaries rarely go over 150k.

dusty stump
#

I would prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they really wanted this game to succeed. Knowing personally the amount of time some devs like JMO, Koalifer, and tehleach put into the systems and work it seems very unfair to say they were not passionate about the game and truly wanted it to succeed

hard wyvern
#

I thin k they wanted to succeed they just couldnt

noble hinge
#

Im willing to maybe make a bachelors case study on TC and to try and dig around for what exactly happened with the game.

hard wyvern
#

arkheron is meeting same faith

#

its not like a case study

#

its just a common trend in the industry

noble hinge
#

I kinda just want to do it for my own closure. See what happened under the hood and learn to avoid similar pit falls

dusty stump
#

Game design, especially pvp games, is incredibly hard

#

And very likely to fail

#

Only reason so many got free money was the low interest environment and the high payoff

hard wyvern
#

pvp GaaS multiplayer games with competitive focus and therefore that need an enormous playerbase to make its ranked grind worthy, its a huge, huge bet

#

but at the same time

#

the market NEEDS a new game of those characteristics

wheat quail
#

GaaS?

hard wyvern
#

that its not a fps/3rd person shooter imho

hard wyvern
wheat quail
#

gotcha

hard wyvern
#

because league has had practically a monopoly for more than a decade

#

and there is no game trying to fight them

noble hinge
#

Dota just did a monster hunter collab. League is cooked now

pulsar minnow
noble hinge
#

League is cooked

hard wyvern
heavy thorn
# dusty stump What is the joke there

Neh its just not perse a joke its just a comment more so n sometime more a joke. Its like other comments u could make like when tired or high af saying ur fried. But its with funny intend attached. N sometimes that shit is more offensive, not funny at all to ppl or whatever but in the moment usually ppl have no ill intent(depending on where u look/who u talk to it might be very diff). Ive talked even to ppl that are for example against trans fully or something and was able to convince them they arent all weird or whatever right, but in some other things like racism vs black ppl its often times harder to achieve this if they are actually racist. (this shit mostly from personal experience so maybe other experience it diff)

#

Its hard to out it in a way short form that makes sense to everyone

#

but i usually say joke but then i sorta have to explaij its not perse a joke

whole fulcrum
keen berry
#

Its an Ego stroke and a lot of humbling of the ego

sinful bobcat
# noble hinge Im willing to maybe make a bachelors case study on TC and to try and dig around ...

When it comes to supervive although many questionable decisions were made the game has still at the core been pretty much the same for a long while, when the game was in a better state it was a more fun gameplay loop but was still pretty similar, supervive was a very fun concept which brought back the love for battlerite type gamers, however i don't ever think the game really fleshed out beyond being a fun fighter as ironically the charm in supervive was that we never used to be able to play it all the time so no one really got burned out and saw all the cracks in the gameplay loop which make it not as fun to actually grind. Also with br just being a dead genre unless ur fornite cod or some niche asian game supervive just came way too late and besides having potential for a fun team fighting game there's not actually much polish anywhere else

#

if i was the devs i'd just make a good custom game tool + make arena 4v4 fully fledged mode with features arena heads want and sunset the game

#

at least with arena in a good state every now and then people could run some arena 4v4 double elim tourneys or something like that

noble hinge
#

I do wonder when will a game in the battlerite esque genre actually do good. Besides eternal returns that has its niche community

sinful bobcat
noble hinge
#

Wonder if the sub genre is just doomed to being over shadowed. Will anyone make a version of the genre that is genuinely just THAT good it pops off?

sinful bobcat
#

battlerite is like a 3d fighting game , fighting games will never be the most popular game due to how polarising skill gaps can get

#

hence why in supervive top players where able to just roll lobbies because it really was just skill diff

#

fighting games tend to not have rng or cheap ways to even the skill gap between players

#

so to the masses it's never gonna appeal

noble hinge
#

What if we just make a battlerite but with way more bullshit. 🤔

sinful bobcat
noble hinge
#

Very fitting name. Loki is always up to some bs

#

That game could be a super vibe ngl

sinful bobcat
#

SUPERVIVE!!!

noble hinge
keen berry
#

Tbh, what he did isnt that crazy, we used to do stuff like it all the time, just never wanted to ego about it

dry compass
#

???

#

wait there's no way your saying tc should be telling him to do anything regarding when they didn't pay him for coordinating a discord and making sure devs felt safe in it

keen berry
#

Tbh if you talked to devs a long time about any change you wanted or had any big idea, you just talked, didn't make it known that it was your idea

dapper sand
#

as a person who talked to HAM a decent amount, hes actually a pretty sound guy but i agree a bit over the top with this post. Something you have to give the guy is that he is one of the only people to take initiative to change the game when it was in a bad trajectory, to which it failed (the game was already going to fail beyond his help).

keen berry
dapper sand
#

IMO the game was going in a bad trajectory when it was becoming more corporate focused rather than the initial passion focused the alpha and beta times where.

dry compass
#

^

sinful bobcat
dry compass
#

true but no one did but ham

sinful bobcat
#

and the issue is although beta was really good it was still incomplete

dry compass
#

this company is like a disfunctional household

sinful bobcat
#

must be weird asf all the tc devs going back to riot

#

feel like bad children rebelling

#

but you always come home

#

it's like when u were young you'd pack your things and tell ur parents ur running away

#

but they know ur gonna come back when it's late

dapper sand
sinful bobcat
dapper sand
#

thats not entierly true

dry compass
#

i feel the game fully strayed from the light when comp > fun

dapper sand
#

they mostly did it because its better for solo q players

dry compass
#

a game being fun is the main thing that makes people stay with it and supervive was allergic to fun since 1.0

#

it was more then the system it was the items and general ingame direction

#

game was a sandbox br with moba elements

sinful bobcat
#

ngl devs should just sell supervive engine let another company use the combat for a actual good game

#

only thing supervive has going for it ngl

dry compass
#

i worded it quite well and my last large post about the game but (faker in a loony toons episode) was what i always felt drew me in

sinful bobcat
#

the combat is fun when properly balanced

dapper sand
sinful bobcat
#

supervive is fun asf when u don't have to play the br mode ngl

#

just a shame arena is still half assed put together mode

#

devs should've used my idea made arena into a csgo type mode where there's progression in weapons throughout giving a spin on the typical battlerite formula

drifting lantern
keen berry
#

Tbh that last bit about this thread not being useful at all is probably the most true thing in here

#

Just in the entire thread

#

Gawd dam

left sentinel
#

What did you get arrested for

jovial wyvern
#

Based

left sentinel
#

Oh so You were extracting prisma in real life

whole fulcrum
woeful fulcrum
#

Youre getting triggered way too much lol

#

No, it sparked a bunch of good discussion with even a few people from the old playtesting server chiming in to give alot of context

#

The dude ure getting so mad over aknowledged that the post was shit

#

like 2 days ago or smth

#

How about you just leave? xD

#

Dont engage with things you get ragebaited by

#

Self control

#

you know

sinful bobcat
#

free speech

#

ngl there's literally no reason to delete it

#

everyone has free will

#

if u wanna respond to their post u do

#

if u don't wanna u don't

#

im choosing to type here

#

same way u are

#

it's all self inflicted

#

just leave the thread and boom its all fixed

#

if people are dming u personally then u just have to block them no?

#

the solutions to ur problem seem pretty straight forward

#

so whats the actual issue?

#

u chose to jump into this discussion

#

yea but im not complaining

#

see ur catching on!

#

i haven't complained at u once

#

im just giving u solutions

woeful fulcrum
#

so tell them not to?

#

thats not our problem

#

I already stated reasoning for it

sinful bobcat
#

free speech

#

why can it not be here also?

#

this is the discussion section of the server after all

woeful fulcrum
#

do we have to pretend that this didnt happen now

#

just because you dont like it

#

what do you want moderated

#

XD

#

cant make this shit up

sinful bobcat
#

just give them mod tbh

#

secondhn will save supervive society

woeful fulcrum
#

So leave lol

whole fulcrum
#

Second the hero we deserve

wise forum
#

I haven't seen an actual discord Karen for some time

woeful fulcrum
#

xD

#

Discord karen is weirdly accurate

pulsar minnow
pulsar minnow
dry compass
#

i loved beta it had problems but it only needed a little work

#

then they just hard scrapped the entire thing

pulsar minnow
#

Sounds like you loved what the game could become

#

You didnt do enough

#

You didnt stop the game from becoming this

noble hinge
#

I could have saved the game. Sadly I was stuck doing millitary service

#

😔

pulsar minnow
noble hinge
drifting lantern
#

i like second hes good ppl

heavy thorn
#

ahahahahahaa

drifting lantern
#

genz is trying to cancel hamenim?

heavy thorn
#

bro its so funny ahaha

drifting lantern
shrewd oak
#

Guys maybe

drifting lantern
#

Shrug i understand peoples frustration with supervive and its community

shrewd oak
#

Just maybe

drifting lantern
#

no

#

dont say it

#

shut up

#

dont say it

heavy thorn
#

get laid?

shrewd oak
#

This entire thing doesnt concern us at all

drifting lantern
#

i want to get laid in the dirt permanently

real wadi
#

supervive is going to shutdown btw I have insider info

keen berry
heavy thorn
#

Same i bought it on temu

#

they are shutting down next week

drifting lantern
real wadi
deep flower
#

The post feels narcissistic for sure. But I don't really agree with second that ham is a bad guy. I do appreciate him for trying to help tc, but second is also right that there was no reason it had to take him doing smth for tc to start doing basic ass shit like playtesting.

Half agree with second half disagree basically.

drifting lantern
#

i think we can all agree supervive is going to die because we oversexualized the female cast

heavy thorn
#

It don tmatter even if he pisses of 50k players with his ego, if theres value thats understandable the right people will listen. If u care about the succes of the game then u hating on someone too hard besides like memeing or some shit shoudl realise ur not helping by trying to get rid of value u just cant agree with wether u feel ur right or wrong

#

its not much deeper than that

drifting lantern
#

and made too many gooner characters

real wadi
#

Ham you said you were leaving why are you still here?

#

stop lying

#

just leave already

drifting lantern
#

but u love us so much that you want to hang out still ❤️

real wadi
#

leave this server then

#

and its not like you helped

#

and ik you were ass

#

at the game too

drifting lantern
real wadi
#

hahahha

drifting lantern
#

get em ham u hav nothin to lose now

heavy thorn
#

U just gotta not give a fuck and argue back with fax and they will just stop talking. Everytime i write a bible explaining shit that spawned from some bullshit reply they stop writing or write a bible made of air so its even easier to not be bothered

whole fulcrum
#

What the skibidi

real wadi
#

europe owns you

wise forum
#

<@&1169318934902739024> yeet #2 today

drifting lantern
#

i said it my first day here 🙂

real wadi
#

yeah mods

#

yeet ham

drifting lantern
heavy thorn
real wadi
#

yeah

#

LEAVE

drifting lantern
#

wym theres 3 whole ppl typing in here

real wadi
#

stop saying you are leaving

#

and then not leave

#

ik your ass wont leave

#

CUZ YOU ARE A LIAR

heavy thorn
#

If supervive dies i will miss myself, ingame ofc

real wadi
#

and can't stick to your words

#

you say something and dont do it

drifting lantern
#

and SA, finally someone says it

vital copper
#

Stop the toxicity, thx.