#Why weaken Saros in patch 1.05？😅

269 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

wild mirage
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Do you game balance team really understand Saros?💩

In the hunter strength ranking of OPGG, Saros only ranks 15th, which is in the middle and lower reaches.clownker

I really can't think of any reason to weaken Saros. The only reason is that the game balance team's game level is too low and Saros is bullying them.kingpinlookme

At the same time, Saros still has many bugs. For example, the portal cannot properly transport Saros and his Q skill orb. There is also a bug with RMB, which triggers the skill sound effect but is abnormally canceled.zephrip

Based on my experience playing Saros, Saros is not very strong. So I hope the balance team will seriously consider whether this weakning is reasonable and fix these bugs as soon as possible, as they really affect the playing experience of Saros.ellunaheart

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Why weaken Saros in patch 1.05？

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Why weaken Saros in patch 1.05？😅

junior minnow
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brother he was busted

vernal hornet
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He was broken

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But as you said

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He is bug and still rly strong

echo sinew
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his wr is in the dumps tbf

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but either way-

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He was strong in higher tiers/scrims

Patches since 1.0 has been pretty much just competitive focused (considering we never had any Shrike adjustments/Hudson stuff)

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I thought at first Saros was bad as OP said seeing as how I never see him in my games

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and his ult is genuinely one of the most uncreative most boring, clunkiest asf skill in the entire game and I will not change my mind on this even if others think of it as strong

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but seeing as how he has been performing decently well it's not surprising to see him nerfed

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Bishop is like mid at best, her whole entire pre 1.0 kit got removed

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she doesn't deserve to be among those

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I used to main her a lot pre 1.0, but she has been gutted off of everything, especially that RMB range removal

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that was absolutely nasty from TC

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practically killed her after that

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Brall is still getting nerfs... after getting nerfed since Open Beta... opened

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his two buffs are mana adjustments which is funny asf

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he has survived throughout open beta till 1.0 to now with just hard nerfs

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is Oath still top tier?

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I barely see him get any play nowadays

teal forge
echo sinew
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right Ghost

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forgot about him too

teal forge
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Like Saros maybe deserved a nerf, but Ghost needs the nerf

echo sinew
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these nerfs are the ones that stands out the most (at least to me) and I don't have Ghost on my radar that much either

teal forge
echo sinew
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definitely should look into Ghost then, I agree

teal forge
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My list for expected nerfs was Ghost, Brall, Shiv and Tetra so atleased 2/4 got something

echo sinew
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mine was Brall, Tetra, Beebo, Shiv

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I hate Beebo istg, still has the strongest ult in the game and the Bomb that's basically +1 ally

teal forge
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Although I really hate playing vs a Beebo, I think is in the "strong" chategory right now unlike Shiv, Brall and Ghost being straight up OP

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Tetra is a bit of a weird case because if you look at her stats, she is really underperforming

echo sinew
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her proc'ing Burning Hands still kind of a problem when she has a way to apply that item the most than any other Hunter in the game

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she barely needs any CDR too since she can hover around her walls for a long time and just zone quite well and be good up close either

teal forge
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I think Tetra is a case of being incredibly strong but alot of people straight up suck with her

echo sinew
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only reason I think she's underperforming a bit is because her damage seems low?

echo sinew
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her damage is low, people don't know much what to do with her

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but overall great Hunter really

teal forge
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Tetra DMG isn't even low if you do her combo's and such

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she controls space and can do half your HP with a wall

echo sinew
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new Tetra players just seem to hover behind walls and shoot it off rather than going in

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and her combos are quite complicated (at least from my experience, I still have trouble pressing spacebar for her RMB I'm ass I know)

teal forge
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Ye, its hard to nerf a hunter that underperforms a bit but I think in a few months time she can be one of the most oppressive hunters out there

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But in the case of Saros, the nerf feels a bit undeserved just because ghost didn't get one

echo sinew
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this is what I mean when her damage is low, def high skill ceiling character, but if you only know surface level stuff then you won't be doing much with her

teal forge
echo sinew
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checking the wiki, doesn't say anything about it

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you were prolly getting nuked with multiple skills like LSHIFT > LMB > Q > RMB

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in a combo or sumn

teal forge
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probebly, im not a tetra player which also makes it harder to judge her

junior minnow
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ye guys

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uhhm

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what do i say

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tetra has good burst if u land everything perfectly

vernal hornet
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Ngl for a good start

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Remove tetra reset dunk

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At least

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Its shoudl not be on a champ with that many tools in his kit

junior minnow
crystal girder
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What really pisses me off about the overloaded kits is how the devs never balance them like they have so many tools. They're always just balanced the same way as the character with 30% as many tools as them. Leads to them being stupid as fuck for a stupidly long time

hazy mica
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On the comparison to Ghost I think the biggest thing would be is that a strong Saros can often be more frustrating to play against than a strong ghost.

shy zephyr
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the game is completelty unoplayable when a saros has armourshredder

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dragon something rounds

crystal girder
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That's true for most characters._. Item still op lol

raw orbit
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her RMB basically became her entire kit when it was that size, everyone as just abusing it since it was basically free poke no matter what

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you couldn't WASD it so you basically had to use a dash or else you get hit

echo sinew
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LMAOOO

echo sinew
# raw orbit Bishops identity has always been punch rocket girl, not RMB rocket the size of c...

yeah idk, her punches are strong but her LMBs is the one thing that makes her shine more than her punches. it's true that her design and kit revolves around punching and all, but most of her damage comes from her LMBs because it does great damage

RMB Bishop while overpowered, it was fun and was the most fun I've ever had with her kit

Her Q punch deals 0 damage if you don't hit it to a wall (but does shit ton of damage if you do hit it), it's slow, risky, predictable and the range is beyond pathetic when we have large knockbacks like Beebo LMB having a sweeping hitbox along with Brall's and Oath's

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Bishop is a shell of what she once was and her identity as a punching machine is beyond pathetic really

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I don't think she's weak, but she's not strong either

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but she's definitely at the bottom for the most mid-units in the game in terms of balancing

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only good thing she has now is that she absolutely shreds Glider fuel, but other than that her abyss fighting sucks imo

wild mirage
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Bros, do you know how to contact the balance team? I really think that the weakening of Saros is unreasonable.ellunaheart

raw orbit
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you do understand she was initially added to the game to BE a rocket punch girl

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like her entire kit for months and probably even years was literally based around her looking for opportunities with punch

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her RMB was the most random change that literally everyone other than bishop players complained about

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because it was the least risk for the amount of reward in the game, you'd basically have a free ~400+ damage

echo sinew
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yet her main damage is from LMBs and empowered LMBs that's why I think she failed to be a rocket punch girl

raw orbit
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you can't have a hunter that literally only punches what do you expect ?

echo sinew
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Doomfist Overwatch

raw orbit
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and just because her punch is her identity doesn't mean that's the one thing that should do most damage ?

echo sinew
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Tetra with hold LMB

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Oath with hold LMB

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Beebo with hold LMB

raw orbit
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oath ???

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bro

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2 of the hunters you mention have a ranged lmb

echo sinew
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I'm talking about how she could have been revolving around just punching but she's a mess of a kit

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and those examples are characters where they have options that Bishop should have

raw orbit
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well what she revolves around is her movement and punch, I agree she does too much damage with LMBs but that doesn't mean her identity isn't the punch itself

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you saying "she's a shell of what she used to be" while basically glorifying the state she was in when she had the most busted ability in the game which was her old RMB4 is a little weird

echo sinew
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her identity along with her designs is around the punch itself

my problem with it is that her punches are so weak that her as a "rocket puncher" is just a "rocket" character

raw orbit
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her punch is a oneshot on most hunters if you lead it up with a combo

wild mirage
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My opinions are based on my experience in ranked. ClipIt

The data on opgg also proves that Saros isn't strong in ranked, and is even a bit weak.👀
I can't imagine any reason to nerf Saros. The balance team thinks his RMB damage is a bit high.ellunaquestion I can accept a 5% nerf, but not a 10% nerf, which is quite unreasonable. Because in patch 1.05, Salos's main attack at level 1 can deal 114 damage, while RMB can only deal 117 damage.😆 And its mana cost increased from 75 to 100, which is very deadly, brallno meaning that if you miss 3 shots, your mana will be empty. Even if you enter ionization, you may not be able to use RMB continuously due to high mana consumption.celestesuprised
However, when facing a health cow like Kingpin, you need at least seven or eight shots of RMB to threaten him, and you have to rely heavily on Fire Palm.KINGPIN
So I think the reasons for weakening Salos are completely unfounded and unreasonable, and the balance team is a bunch of losers.💩

echo sinew
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anything is a one shot on most hunters if you land it with a combo, the problem with her punch being weak as I said was that it was on hard cooldown with bad range, predictable mess

the only way you could guarantee it and even then the game is such a buggy mess that it glitches out is when you hit your ult

raw orbit
# wild mirage My opinions are based on my experience in ranked. <:ClipIt:1304689327112065044> ...

Yes they increased his mana usage because they made him regen mana quickly afaik. And the 10% damage nerf was very deserved considering most of the time you're just sitting far away from enemies just spamming RMB, it's literally the longest and freest damage in the game. You having trouble against KP is literally what match-ups are supposed to be, your character isn't supposed to fair well against everyone.

raw orbit
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that's when you simply just dash+punch and land it basically everytime completely for free.

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you don't need to use your ult, matter of fact almost every single bishop player will tell you that engaging with ult is really bad.

echo sinew
echo sinew
raw orbit
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I mean hunters are supposed to be like this, you can't expect every single hunter to be played at lower elos, some hunters will just simply appear worse although they might not be because you just don't understand all elements of the game yet.

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same exact reason why hunters like Shrike, Eva or Hudson are hard to balance

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although those are kind of in their own bubble

echo sinew
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you have a point there, but at the same time the reason why I don't like it is because Bishop's Qs are so incredibly horrid and isn't really comparable to other hunters like Shrika/Eva/Hudson, cause with them hitting something is harder on higher lobbies but they have the frequency to keep repeating that move (LMB Shrike, empowered RMB Hudson/wires, Eva balls)

with Bishop going in with a Q most of the time is a suicide move, because it's either they all die if you hit it and land it against a wall or you go in and you're completely screwed

the hitbox is so small, it's predictable, and the cooldown is not justifiable for such a basic move

to the point where I personally in my games I can hit Qs on enemies less than 10% (I know I'm bad) so I just rely on just RMB then punching it for more consistent damage

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like Beebo has a free launch on his bomb and it one shots people but I think that's a different conversation #fuckbeebo

raw orbit
# echo sinew you have a point there, but at the same time the reason why I don't like it is b...

well that's the thing, it ISN'T a suicide move if you know what you're doing, you need to pay higher attention to your own positioning and the cooldown of enemies. If you dash+punch in knowing the enemy has dash on cd unless you completely fuck up, you should be able to hit that target fairly easily, it doesn't matter whether they predict it because they have no tools to get away and after that if you do hit it and it's not against a wall you can just dash back and run away if needed.

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Beebo has the exact same thing you're speaking of, he can ult in but if he misses, he's also cooked.

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although I also believe he's pretty strong but for different reasons.

echo sinew
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Beebo's ult is way too forgiving so I don't think it's comparable. You miss it and you're at the other side of the zone

raw orbit
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well then it depends on the scenario, if he hits a wall while missing, he's likely fucked as long as you're not in the area that cc's.

shy zephyr
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Saros rmb was unironically 4 shorting people.. that’s the same ammount of shots shrike needs to hit ^•*

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Also saros is lowkey still very strong

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Nerfs were 100% needed

echo sinew
wild mirage
# raw orbit that's when you simply just dash+punch and land it basically everytime completel...

Based on my testing, Saros's mana regeneration hasn't increased. This nerf significantly reduces his damage dealing ability.
Furthermore, most burst characters have no effective defense against Kingpin, as their damage isn't enough to threaten him. Saros's role is designed to target characters who can't threaten him from a distance. However, Kingpin's HP allows him to easily absorb three or four RMB from Saros. This makes him incredibly powerful in ranked matches, allowing him to charge in with his Q or RMB hook without any issues, and still have enough HP to escape.
OpGG data also indicates that Kingpin's character power is among the top.

echo sinew
wild mirage
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I have played over 300 matchs of Saros, and as far as I know, only Saros in Arena needs to be nerfed, not ranked.

junior minnow
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ur funny

vernal hornet
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Ranked dosent have balance lobby

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  • some champ are dependent to their teamate
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Like oath for exemple one of the strongest champ in sv

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But never play in rank

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Saros is the same type

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Rly strong but if you dont have any help you dead

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That why he is not that good in ranked

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He is fine ig

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Balance

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Weak if you compare to meta ofc

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Bc meta is not balance

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Shiv etc

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Ofc

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Yeah agree for shiv

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But its cming

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Cant rly say more

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Yeah…

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Shiv only prob imo is vive

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If they nerf this item at least

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Its already another world

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For her

solemn depot
# wild mirage My opinions are based on my experience in ranked. <:ClipIt:1304689327112065044> ...

The data on opgg also proves that Saros isn't strong in ranked, and is even a bit weak.👀
opgg stats are notoriously not useful for balance discussions because players are not good at using the characters, also they don't reflect damage done. His winrate is low in soloqueue because he gets picked off easily
Because in patch 1.05, Salos's main attack at level 1 can deal 114 damage, while RMB can only deal 117 damage.😆
celeste rmb does 160 what's your point? Saros isn't balanced around his level 1 rmb...
And its mana cost increased from 75 to 100, which is very deadly, brallno meaning that if you miss 3 shots, your mana will be empty. Even if you enter ionization, you may not be able to use RMB continuously due to high mana consumption.celestesuprised
why should you be able to rmb continuously... his kit isn't cenetered entirely around rmb

However, when facing a health cow like Kingpin, you need at least seven or eight shots of RMB to threaten him, and you have to rely heavily on Fire Palm.KINGPIN
a hunter who can poke can't oneshot a tank 😱 joule takes like 10 autos to break hudson wire

So I think the reasons for weakening Salos are completely unfounded and unreasonable, and the balance team is a bunch of losers.
ahhh I'm sure a dev will want to talk to you now about it you seem like a reasonable person 🙂

solemn depot
# wild mirage Based on my testing, Saros's mana regeneration hasn't increased. This nerf signi...

Furthermore, most burst characters have no effective defense against Kingpin, as their damage isn't enough to threaten him. Saros's role is designed to target characters who can't threaten him from a distance. However, Kingpin's HP allows him to easily absorb three or four RMB from Saros. This makes him incredibly powerful in ranked matches, allowing him to charge in with his Q or RMB hook without any issues, and still have enough HP to escape.

you are attributing a 1 on 1 situation with soloq. KP should have to deal with 3 people's damage when he wants to play for slam (which can be displaced by bomb). He can't heal effectively with vive infusor if he eats antiheals

OpGG data also indicates that Kingpin's character power is among the top.
he is good in soloq because his character is forgiving to survive with because of vive infusor, and is good at setting up kills for a team without much coordination

crystal girder
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Hold up I'm just realizing this isn't paqt... my mind has been blown. I couldn't tell the difference lmao

solemn depot
crystal girder
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Are you..?

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Iatg you said saros wasn't strong before so idk 😐

trail vine
crystal girder
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I mean he was the only s tier hunter that actually got a significant nerf tbf. Other ones were basically not touched

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Nah bro, he was actually insane before.

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Idk bro, 4 shotting someone across the map is kinds broken. Not even having all that many mana problems

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No it's like you're forced into dodging constantly just cus a hunter is within 2 screens of you. So sometimes you literally just cannot do shit cus he's looking at you, try and do shit he'll hit you for significant dmg. And with so many open places in the br map that helped him even more

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I don't even think hitting 4 shots is all too hard but that constant pressure is definitely insanly strong bro

vernal hornet
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Yeah its should be a spell and not a simple aa

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A spell with cd

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Not rly but yeah i see

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Something like every simple AA hit on champ give charge at 3 charges you can rmb and cast something

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Or simple spell

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They will i think

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Hmm no

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They fix a lot of QOL on him

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That’s why he wss that strong

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Yeah

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Still bug

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Rmb portal

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Its way better

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But not perfect

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Yeah its not perfect

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But its way better than his release

wild mirage
wild mirage
# solemn depot > The data on opgg also proves that Saros isn't strong in ranked, and is even a...

My point is that Saros's damage in the early game isn't particularly impressive, if anything, lacking. He's heavily level-dependent, meaning he's not particularly strong until level 12, when all his skills have been upgraded. His strength lies in his ultra-long-range RMB, which deals significant damage from a distance and forces enemies to reposition. I think this aligns with Saros's role as the character with the longest range in the game. If we're going to nerf this, a damage reduction of around 5% is reasonable.

wild mirage
# solemn depot > The data on opgg also proves that Saros isn't strong in ranked, and is even a...

Prior to patch 1.05, Saros's Ionization granted him significant mana regeneration and increased fire rate, allowing him to unleash a flurry of primary attacks and RMB attacks within a matter of seconds. However, with the RMB cost now increased to 100 mana, Ionization's mana regeneration is insufficient to sustain RMB usage, and Saros experiences a significant delay between RMB usage and primary attacks. This nerf significantly impacts his damage output.

junior minnow
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idk why u trynna argue

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the 10% is a good nerf

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he was legit just attacking from 2 screens away no counterplay

wild mirage
# solemn depot > The data on opgg also proves that Saros isn't strong in ranked, and is even a...

Joule is a classic burst character, so it's natural that she feels weak against KP.
However, Saros struggles to fully utilize his ability to restrict enemy positioning against KP. However, against Hudson or Oath, Saros can effectively restrict their positioning, which is the ability to restrict enemy positioning I mentioned.
However, this nerf has clearly significantly impacted Saros's role.

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I want to emphasize that Saros's power before the nerf was completely reasonable and didn't need to be nerfed.
Even if the damage was to be reduced, the mana cost shouldn't be increased at all. Saros's value lies in his ability to snipe enemies from a distance and force their positioning.
Meanwhile, Ghost, whose overall quality is far superior to Saros and whose usage rate is far ahead, doesn't need a nerf. Isn't this unreasonable?

junior minnow
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saros also fucks kp

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and ghost is nowhere near saros

teal forge
crystal girder
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No way saros shouldn't kick kp's ass. Same with joule...

jovial fiber
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I BEEN SAYINF THISSSSS

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Her punch does nothingggg if it dosent hit a wall but if jt does it one shots

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Why cant the punch just be better and the rockets worse

junior minnow
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what are u guys saying

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her punch is good

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huh

jovial fiber
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If it hits someone into a wall

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Yeh

junior minnow
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ye thats the point

jovial fiber
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But rockets r just better

jovial fiber
junior minnow
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how

jovial fiber
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And it shouldn't be that point

junior minnow
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its called character design

jovial fiber
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Her dmg from her lmbs is so good why would you ever risk going in for a rocket punch unless it was guaranteed

junior minnow
cosmic frigate
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with punch reset etc longer ago

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yes she is a shell relative to what she used to be

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lvl 4 RMB (yes while disgustingly OP) enhanced made her gameplay nuanced due to the self impulse (obviously not talking about RMB spamming)

junior minnow
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but like the punch argument is still not real

crystal girder
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Old rmb resetting punch was crazy fun, but doesn't seem like what tc wants for the character.

cosmic frigate
junior minnow
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and punching normally is useless

cosmic frigate
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thats somewhat true no?

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currently bishop cant really do much on her own

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AA's are the most easily dodgable in the game

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you have to force dashes to go in with punch

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you cant engage with ult since its the slowest moving thing in the game with no hithox

junior minnow
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well ur punch literally won u game 1

vernal hornet
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initiator

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btw

crystal girder
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The roles are fake anyways. So idk of her role matters

vernal hornet
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ik

cosmic frigate
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my punch didnt really change the outcome of the fight

junior minnow
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it pushed them away from u

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into abyss

cosmic frigate
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you woulda still died on land on top of me anyways

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oath used dash

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you have no way to stop it

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bishop punch is literally cosmetic unless theres a wall

crystal girder
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Isn't that like... the whole point of it? Use wall as dmg, and if the enemy is a slow hunter stun them out of abilities with it at times.

nimble whale
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Btw the moment you went to opgg and used win rate/play rate to determine how strong a hunter is - your take was immediately invalidated

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(talking about original post)

jovial fiber
crystal girder
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I feel like that's just straght up dumb tho. It was literally how she was designed. You want lunch to do that much dmg on base? Can't wait to see how dumb that ends up being.

Im srry it doesn't seem to do what you eant but how tf does that make it bad

jovial fiber
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I dont want it to nuke people no

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I just want it to do enough dmg that its a real option

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Right now its just worse than lmb spam

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And the character doesn't fulfill the fantasy of rocket punch girl

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Shes Pharah when she should've been doomfist

lime bobcat
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easily one of your best matchups

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dash slam is impossible vs joule

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hook useless

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plenty of max hp to eat with passive + big fat body to stack on

echo sinew
# crystal girder Isn't that like... the whole point of it? Use wall as dmg, and if the enemy is a...

this is the equivalent of saying that Myth's Q (Rain of Arrows) is too strong because it can one shot if someone ate the whole thing

like no, that whole ability is designed for players to get hit ONCE and immediately get out of that area that Myth is shooting

Yes of course an ability is strong if it's used to its full potential like Myth's Q if people just stood inside of it the whole time

Yes Kingpin has the ability to one-shot if you hit his hook
Ghost's ult has the ability to one-shot if someone just stood inside of it etc

The problem with Bishop's punch is that it has too much downtime to be good. Yes it has the ability to one-shot, but is that consistent enough for it to be good? Absolutely not. 90% of my usage of Q in games will most likely lead to just punching bombs or knocking enemies away, the consistency of landing that punch to walls is way too difficult, that's why it isn't that good

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what Bishop needs are several things to be good again if they want to keep the punching intact and I don't care how much damage nerfs she gets for it because it is simply bad and too hard to hit

  • reliability
  • frequency

Miss a Ghost Q well sure that eats some mana but it goes back up quick, you're safe and you're far away you won't do much
You miss Myth Q sure you're far away and it's enough to zone enemies
Miss Kingpin Hook, that's fine you're far away and if people get close you can just Q

Miss Bishop Q? Oh damn you're right in front of the enemy team because that's the only effective range for it and you missed it, how did you get in? Just walked into them or did you use your dashes or ult, how are you gonna get away? If you were Beebo/Brall/Oath/Tetra you would have a built in 0 cooldown knockback tied to your LMB and you can salvage this failure of an engage as an initiator, but unfortunately you don't have any other knockbacks as the "punch" character

It is CRIMINAL that they put knockbacks on Beebo/Brall/Oath/Tetra but not for the punching girl Bishop

teal forge
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I will take some build in knockback aswell xD

cosmic frigate
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In every fight you straight up ONLY auto attack

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and you have to rely on them making mistakes

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while your AA's provide no real pressure

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you cant hit RMB against a human with hands

wild mirage
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By the way, have you noticed that Myth is very abnormal in patch 1.05?

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Her ultimate fires incredibly fast and sometimes fires 4 times. The cooldown on her S skill is also weird. Myth is pretty OP right now, but the patch notes didn't mention that at all.😅

wild mirage