Elluna feels bad right now.

[ripe crescent]

but yeah, it would absolutely require tuning some things, i wouldn't call it a rework, but it would require touching things elsewhere

"hopefully", it would just require some numbers

[oak mantle]

Like I have a desire a want for it to be such and such

But it would require more than a value here and there.

[small magnet]

Look, I'm not saying your discontent isn't valid, but put yourself in the developers' shoes. They would go from trying to "please" to ruining the experience for an indeterminate number of other players, causing a worse situation.

[oak mantle]

This is true.

-# like I just feel abilities should be able to be used in some way. But can understand that this game is not only for me. It still feels bad. I can feel bad. It is not the end of the world.

[ripe crescent]

uh, i guess that depends if the balancing is accurate?

[oak mantle]

Which will never happen.

[ripe crescent]

sorry i misread this post, it would be a problem, i dont think they need to touch other champions

[oak mantle]

^^^

[ripe crescent]

it would effectively be the same as saying giver her more self healing on Q, take away something else

[small magnet]

This is why a rework would be frowned upon if handled incorrectly as it could cause widespread discontent and probably bigger problems for the creators. Maybe for you something like healing yourself with R is a great idea but it could cause players of other champions to see it very badly or even those who mainly play Elluna, even more so adding the other adjustments I mentioned.

[ripe crescent]

hell, we COULD argue that we can cut her Q healing

and enable ulting herself

[small magnet]

thats... thats is horrible bad

[queen valve]

no u couldnt

and even if u did the argument would be "instead of healing with her q what if she healed the same amount with her ult"

kinda changes... nothing

[small magnet]

You're not understanding that a change like this affects not only Elluna but an entire system.

[oak mantle]

The issue is. If you increase healing to much, damage needs to be calibrated. If you touch one portion of healing, more healing will need to be touched. Then damage. Then ability changes. Then this. Then that. Then items. Then....

League had to much healing. Then it got to much damage. Then you had tanks that would not die. Then they lowered damage and tankiness and then damage is still to high on high dps characters and you get 100-0 in 2 seconds in every game.

[ripe crescent]

of course, there's a power budget to champs

the SV devs absolutely follow that paradigm, we saw it with the wk changes

[fleet scroll]

The only positive change elluna should be getting is a bit of z axis qol or her ult granting some sort of extra defense to the wisp

[ripe crescent]

defense to a wisp?

[fleet scroll]

Other than that she does not need more stats. She can 1v1 even without ervi build and imo heals well enough

[ripe crescent]

like after the res, or from getting stomped?

[oak mantle]

I would agree. But then its like... what would feel like it slots in. There is NOTHING that would compliment right now. That would be a huge character rework change.

This whole argument is why I want to stay away from balance debate btw.

Like way to many variables. You need play testing. But they cannot have a beta branch at this size. So it would go straight into normal play. Which would be horrible if they did tons of hotfix balancing just to test stuff.

Maybe they they can do that at the end of season when it matters less than in the middle. But again, not a dev,

[oak mantle]

Agreed.

[small magnet]

Agreed

[oak mantle]

Which, the clipping thing was mentioned a while ago.

[fleet scroll]

Like I'm always rolling my eyes when I'm using an ability called "DIVINE INTERVENTION" and then it gets intervened by a sword

[ripe crescent]

is that her ult lol

[fleet scroll]

Yeah

[small magnet]

There's a reason Elluna isn't seeing many changes in patches, it's because in the eyes of the developers and most players she's fine.

[fleet scroll]

I've never asked the devs for elluna lmb, q or rmb to be buffed

It's the little things that make the biggest differences

[ripe crescent]

i'm tryna get it nerfed, so i can self ult

[oak mantle]

@fleet scroll how do you feel about wisps being picked up if just being stepped on? Or like a fraction of a second protection on the shield damage(this one is hard to explain).

[fleet scroll]

Nah that's the counterplay the enemies need

[oak mantle]

See and that is fair.

[fleet scroll]

Ult gets around that

[small magnet]

Now that I think about it... can Bubble Frog Q shield a Wisp? I'd have to try it.

[small magnet]

Yeah... I don't like the idea.

[oak mantle]

I think the area around a wisp being stomped is a bit large. Like it seems as if they are not stepping on it but they are. I feel stomping on a wisp should be... You know... ON a wisp. Not like poking it with a toe.

[oak mantle]

But yeah, that echoes my thoughts and guesses that we would see an elluna for every team diving into fights to whisk a wisp away.

[ripe crescent]

sure, i bet a lot of people don't

if anything Elluna probably needs more nerfs

[oak mantle]

I am beginning to see a picture from what people are saying though is that like... This is an important jenga piece.

[ripe crescent]

absolutely

are you familiar with the power budget idea

[oak mantle]

Probably

[ripe crescent]

i'm sure it's intuitive, i'm just asking for a change on a character that doesn't NEED a change, but might feel better for some players

just like how riot would tune champs to be better in low elo too

[tawdry lark]

You can't buff elluna self healing as she is balanced around living due to mobility not healing. That's also why she abuses the fuck out of vive infuser rn.
Zeph survives more so due to his healing than mobility, it's why he unnerfed bhop was so stupid he just shouldn't have had smth like that.
Eva is an even better example where giving her more mobility wouldn't make much sense due to her healing, I mean unless you nerf her healing in compensation.

It's a push and pull, i think you'd call it that.

[ripe crescent]

absolutely, not trying to buff her healing, just trying to adjust where she gets it from

and if we do want to nerf her mobility/damage, i'm for that too, but i think everyone loves her mobility 🙁

honestly, i do too

[queen valve]

or, hear me out, just play around her strengths since shes already a champ that exists and has them

instead of trying to make her different

🤔

[small magnet]

And you don't want to imagine how League of Legends does it, In LOL balancing decisions are made based on the experiences of the Chinese server, since they are the largest consumers of EAsports' money directed at Riot Games. If a champion there feels strong or weak, it will trigger general changes for all players globally, usually without much concern for the opinion of EU, NA or LA players.

Their solution to see the "impact" of said changes would be test servers where users they trust with access test said changes and give their approval.

If it supervive becomes popular and has a larger player population in China, probably all of us in NA, EU, or LA will be sidelined and will have to settle for the changes they make to champions, such as reworks or balances.

So, in a way, the game has been saved, but we are now irrelevant, and our opinion will be thrown off the cliff in favor of money.

[queen valve]

idk if "the game would be balanced if it were popular" means that its saved

hahahaha

people claimed that the unbalanced champs on release were what killed it

[small magnet]

I didn't mean the game would be popular if it were better balanced, I actually meant that all of us on servers with "fewer" players would have to settle for accepting widespread changes for a much larger community like the Chinese one also probably not receive as many events as they would with them to cheer them up, money makes the world go round and this applies well to how Riot Games manages its game.

[queen valve]

i mean if more people are playing it and they have a better competitive scene, so they balance around MOST players and the COMPETITIVE scene i think thats a net positive

if league gets balanced around china i really dont see how thats a negative

if its because china has more players playing more games with more items and finding more issues

that just sounds good and natural

[small magnet]

While I don't deny several points you mention, I had to abandon the game after they forced their ridiculous Chinese spyware disguised as antivirus that has unlimited access to your PC and can delete things without your permission while damaging your property.

That Vanguard thing was such a bad deal that it forced me, a player with more than 8 years of experience, to decline and leave.

[queen valve]

yeah but thats like

completely unrelated

to anything being discussed

or anything you said

or to balancing

i agree league sucks and their antivirus is malware

[small magnet]

It's actually related because Riot Games, bought by Tencent, was forced to install it just because they wanted it, which simultaneously ruined many players and directly affected their games and properties.

At the same time, Vanguard is absolutely necessary to have installed on your computer if you're a NA, EU, and LA player, but in China, they didn't force it because they have other means of spying on their players.

[queen valve]

its not related to the balancing process at all

[small magnet]

I added this explanation because they were giving examples of how sometimes changes are made in the game for simple business reasons, so this is related to that and more as an integral part of that aspect of the conversation.

[shut mulch]

i made the other thread, so other stuff can be talked with a different approach

[tawdry lark]

I also love it(tho it's too high due to dash engine rn) but people were talking about buffing her healing to herself which i just don't think you can ever reasonably do if you also want the other stuff

[west skiff]

elluna being one of the most broken chars atm

[empty moss]

It's all parts of her kit that are built for self sabotage that really make her feel bad. In the general sense her numbers are fine and her movement is great. Her problem comes from the built in counters to her damn abilities that other characters that are way more broken don't suffer from. COUGH BRALL and WUKONG COUGH. I have been harping on this for a while.
Passive:

Run across a knocked ally to pick them up and carry them with you. You cannot pick up allies being stomped.
Gain a 200-450 Health Shield based on level, which refills each time you pick up an ally. If the shield breaks, or you are crowd-controlled, you are Stunned, drop your allies, and cannot pick them back up for 4s.

You are Slowed by 20% while carrying allies.

Why does her passive have a built in stun? Why does her passive have a built in slow? Why does her passive turn CCs into stuns? Why does her passive work against her?
Q:

Heal allies in a radius around you over 2.5s with a burst of 90 (+54%) Health at the end.
Reactivate to toss the zone to target location and boost Healing by 50% for 1s. It attaches to any ally it passes through. Moonlight Blessing is destroyed if attached to you and you are stunned.

Heal is 33% effective on yourself.

Heal is 500% effective on wisps.

Why is it that her Q selfheal for 33%? Why is the boost of healing reliant on throwing it away from you? Healing wisps is such a non-feature it may as well not even exist.
Why is her Q destroyed if it's attached to you and you are stunned? WHY DOES HER PASSIVE DESTROY HER Q ?

R:

Heal an ally or allied Wisp for 28.2(+6%) per second for 5s.
Wisps will also be Resurrected, teleported to you, and Healed.

You can cast other abilities while channeling. If you are knocked, Stunned, or move too far away, the effect ends.

If cast completes on a Wisp, you Heal yourself.
Why does her Ultimate require her to dive head long into the enemy team to support them?

And let me just point out one little thing you may have missed HER PASSIVE BREAKS HER ULTIMATE

That's not even speaking on the fact her air dash costs more mana than a Brall's ult. WHY DOES BRALL'S ULT REQUIRE LESS MANA THAN HER DASH?

Darkside binding is awesome no complaints there. So TC got 1/5th maybe 1/3rd of her kit feeling decent.

But lets just try to imagine literally any of the S tier hunters balanced like Elluna is. Brall's empower causes you to be stunned if you get CCed, and puts your ult on cooldown. That sounds just horrid enough to fit Elluna's kit.

[tawdry lark]

"Why is a character with stupid high mobility meant to be balanced around mana actually being balanced around mana", YES IF ONLY BRALL WAS LiKE THAT IT'D GO HARD, that is a fucking good thing.

[queen valve]

Why does her Ultimate require her to dive head long into the enemy team to support them?

huh

[empty moss]

Yes if only the rest of the cast was balanced the way Elluna was

[queen valve]

also dash engine

[empty moss]

Yes dash engine is brought up 100 times now. It patches one hole in the sinking boat that is Elluna

[queen valve]

yeah thats what perks are for

"yes the solution to my complaint is brought up 100 times now. it fixes my complaint"

[tawdry lark]

Self healing is bad cus she has hogh mobility. Like? Highest mobility support also gets good self healing, make total sense. Why is Eva's mobility bad? Idk maybe cus she has really high healing. It's the same thing just switched.

[empty moss]

Other hunters can choose to get dash engine to make them stronger. Elluna needs dash engine to even use her other abilities.

[queen valve]

youre gonna hate my next sentence

if u find urself running out of mana try buying vivebrews at the shop

[empty moss]

Self healing is bad for sure. Good thing she has so many counters to it built into her kit.

[tawdry lark]

Elluna bwing one of the only hogh mobility hunters that actually got balanced by mana meant she was actually well designed. Now that dash engine exist that just doesn't matter tho and it's so fucling stupid. Brall, wukong, jin all should've got there mobility balances around mana but literally only eleluna truly was balanced around mana with her mobility. Stop fucking acting like that's a bad thing

[empty moss]

Oh my god you are sticking on the single sticking point at the end. ELLUNA FEELS BAD BECAUSE HER KIT WORKS AGAINST HER. Would it be if good if hunters like brall were balanced around Mana for balance like she is? YES! Are they? NO! That's one of the many reasons Elluna feels bad

Because while Elluna must build a dash engine to use her mobility without going OOM other hunters do not. Because while other hunters get to use their abilities without having their passive break them Elluna does not get that privledge.

Because while Brall and others can slam R with reckless abandon Eluna does not.

[queen valve]

i love elluna atm personally

i think she feels great

[tawdry lark]

Her passive stunning has been stupid for a while. I've been saying that for a while

[tawdry lark]

You're actively saying something that is good is bad. It's stupid, so so fuckign stupid. "These other characters that almost everyone has found the mobility of stupid is actually balanced on elluna snd that's so dumb" is literally you rn. A hunter actually fucking balanced around their high mobility, people don't know wtf that means ig.

Her heal disappearing when she is stunned means close to nothing. Her passive stunning sure is kinda silly but with a lot of the changes also means close to nothing. The fact she can't just recklessly press r means close to nothing as well; that's basically like me asking for hudson ult to home the target, like c'mon that's just stupid.

You seem to really hate how elluna's mobility actually got fucking balanced around versus other characters. Which is extremely stupid. It should not fucling be, "why is elluna's mobility not like these other characters", it should be "why aren't those characters mobility like elluna".
Like fucking hell, excuse tc for fucking just one balanced high mobility hunter that niece has a way to deny the entire balancing of her high mobility.

[tawdry lark]

Also please know that people will focus on the main thing they disagree on. Why do elluna players not get that? You and the i think op of this elluna post didn't get that for some reason.

[empty moss]

Am I? Lets see what I said

That's not even speaking on the fact her air dash costs more mana than a Brall's ult. WHY DOES BRALL'S ULT REQUIRE LESS MANA THAN HER DASH?
Never said it was good or bad. I said Brall's ultimate cost less mana than her air dash. Maybe if Brall's Spammable, high damage, self healing, instant boxing ultimate cost more than her air dash I wouldn't have had that complaint. Maybe Brall should have to think about his ultimate use as much as Elluna has to think about her Air dash. Maybe Brall should be forced to build into spamming his R like a game killing disease.

[empty moss]

And honestly it feels like this
"These are our complaints! Elluna Has these problems"
" HMMM is she? I have discovered a single problem that Dash engine can fix and have thus rendered your complaints moot"

And while I accept that you agree with me on some points it is somewhat infuriating to throw all the issues that I have with Elluna into a big post, and getting "well this would be good balance for her if she was balanced good." She seems to be one of the few hunters that are "balanced" in any way, thus making her feel weak. This is everything thrown at a wall, each and every problem, some problems may become not problems if the rest of her kit didn't compound the issues. "Mana is her balance" would be perfectly reasonable if not for the fact her passive counters her Q and her R. And her self healing is gutted, and her Ult is practically worthless, and Anti-heal renders half her kit inert. Take away all those other problems and I'd be nodding my head at "Mana is her balance." instead it's another problem heaped together with all the other problems. So I would LOVE LOOOOOVE if Mana was the only complaint I had with her. But watching Brall go cross eyed as he flings himself across the screen to instantly box the person I am ulting to make it worthless while costing the same amount of mana as a single dash? Suddenly I'm wondering why my dash, my "move over here but a little bit faster" ability requires almost double mana as "I get to delete people from the game"

[halcyon hare]

Never has a sentence been so wrong before

She's not an S-tier in the hands of a mediocre player, but she's nowhere near a "sinking ship"

[empty moss]

Holy mother of hamsters, it was a metaphor for a boat with lots of holes in it. And just because you can plug one with a dash engine doesn't mean the ship isn't taking on water. Would it be better if I called her a cracking damn? Still doing it's job but barely holding on?

[halcyon hare]

Oh no, I got your reference, it just doesn't apply to the hero. It implies that the ship will sink eventually, and Elluna is a hero in the upper tiers at the moment

[empty moss]

Despite all the handicaps that constantly plague her she has been able to come out above average while still feeling awful because her kit works against her and counters itself.

[halcyon hare]

Her kit is designed the way it is to have drawbacks, which is often done in games when a hero can be built into a supernova with multiple builds. She does not feel bad at all, and if you think she does, I recommend trying a different build or getting good at the hero

[empty moss]

And what was the drawback to Wukong and Brall? Does Brall's ult stun him if he misses? Just because Elluna is the protector that came out on top doesn't mean her own kit countering itself is a good idea. And she is no supernova. She isn't deleting people from the game.

[halcyon hare]

I think the fact Wukong is problematic has already been addressed several times, even in the most recent patch. Brall is on the same path. You can't use the argument of "this hero is broken, mine should be as well", balance exists for a reason and you don't balance towards something overpowered...

As somebody who has no problems whatsoever with most 1-on-1s in the game, I don't consider the second part of your sentence relevant. To be honest, I don't even see the point of this whole discussion, it just feels like crying for the sake of crying

[empty moss]

You said she has the potential to go supernove, Like Brall and Wukong can go super nova and delete teams. She seems to be the only hunter who has built in counters in her kit other than possibly hudson. And I never said I want Elluna to be broken. I want her to not have so many counters built into her kit. I want my Heals to actually do something. I don't want to lose a 1v1 because my abilities cost so much mana that I am OOM while my opponent is spamming abilities without a thought in the world.

[halcyon hare]

I mean the sole fact you run OOM says a lot about the fact you're not playing the hero right

Out of curiosity, what rank bracket are you in?

[empty moss]

I don't play ranked because I actually want to play in a game and not a queue at some point in my limited day and I am usually on in the morning when the ques are 15+ minutes so I'm bronze. Haven't even bothered queing for ranked this season.

And hitting all of my shots but still not having enough mana to use my abilities while Tetra is spamming her abilities, or Brall is LMBing me to death after being CCed multiple times in the chase, or Wukong just monkey staffing me from a mile away...

[halcyon hare]

I see, okay. I think your concerns might make some sense in very high ELO when the player skill level is generally higher, but for non-ranked and low ELO, she does have an insane potential. Of course, not a 1v3, but I don't think that's what you're trying to achieve here

[empty moss]

Of course not. I don't want an instant win character. If I did I'd play Brall or Wukong or shrike in low ELO

[halcyon hare]

You keep comparing to the S-tier heroes though, heroes that will inevitably get nerfed. Tetra included. It's not the goal to reach their level and make more broken heroes, but get them down to a normal level

They are what happens when a hero doesn't have built-in counters

[empty moss]

She has built in counters and counters from outside as well. But the built in counters are what make her feel bad to play. Feeling bad to play and underpowered are two different things.

Well they overlap quite a biut

[halcyon hare]

I don't know, I actually think Elluna is a pretty good counter to Wukong, from my personal experience, I haven't had problems in a solo fight with it. You can so easily dodge his cc

Not over abyss fights though :)

[empty moss]

A character that feels bad to play can feel underpowered even if they're balanced

[hard quail]

I feel like the real issue is just power creep of new hunters(excluding brall always being brall). Elluna could probably use some QoL stuff(and personally yeah stunning removing the heal should absolutely just go, that's always been so stupid). But shes fun to play and in a pretty decent spot. Pretty much sense beebo the new hunters just get even crazier on release with slow reactions to tune them back in and it makes the previous characters feel worse than they actually are. It's like a whole new design shift on the hunters in terms of power budgeting.

[empty moss]

There is a certain twitch I get when I grab a wisp, jump away, then get stunned and lose my healing because a single LMB hit me.

[halcyon hare]

I just hate the whole "feeling bad" argument. Balancing shouldn't work around feelings, but data. And Elluna comes on top very, very easily when it comes to pick rates, win rates, damage, and healing

[tawdry lark]

I mrna elluna is s tier but it might as well be only because her base dmg is good and vive infuser exist(and ig dash engine as well).
Her passive stunning has always felt bad, it feels bad now but it felt way worse before when she was at most a mid hunter. The ither "counters" in her kit arguably mean nothing

[halcyon hare]

I play her because I have the most fun on her. But if a Wukong wins in a match against me tomorrow, that doesn't really give me the right to get her buffed or reworked just because

How do you guys get stunned when you pick up a wisp?

Unless you're in a void ult or something

Two dashes and you're already halfway across the map

[empty moss]

If you remove her Passive stunning her, or remove the "Removed if stunned" parts of her abilities you would immediately wipe away a majority of my complaints.

[halcyon hare]

It's not even something I've experienced tbh and I have wayyyy too many matches on her

[empty moss]

I'd keep the stun on passive and remove the stun on Q and R

[halcyon hare]

Like do you try to run in a circle rather than escaping?

That's the only scenario I can think of where that is actually applicable in a proper fight

[empty moss]

No I try to escape. Or at least pull wisps out of the combat zone. Her shield is so mediocre that it is impossibly easy to pop, and her passive enhances other people's CCs into stuns

[halcyon hare]

Sure I get that, but so few heroes are able to chase her properly unless you're facing another Elluna. Maybe an ulting racoon

That's why I think you're focusing more on a skill description rather than the situations which actually occur in the game

It might say it, but in 95% of the situations, you'll get out without any problems

[empty moss]

As long as I don't try to play ambulance they tend to be fine. I've stopped playing her as a healer/ambulance and started playing her as Damage/tank bunny. At least then the passive/ult is oppritunistic while DPSing instead of my job to keep people alive, which you can't do and when you try to do that you die and get stunned by your own kit.

When I was trying to protect I was just getting smashed in because slow... and stun... and countering Q and R. And Anti-heal. That feels bad now she feels like a modestly decent DPS with some support capabilities like Oath being a Tank/support

[halcyon hare]

I'd agree that anti-heal is probably the biggest problem if you don't play primer, yeah

That's why I think it's important in general that the hero type is not a 'healer' but 'protector' instead, but not in the sense of heals, but saves when they're needed. At least that's how I see her

No other protector can do what she does, which makes her unique enough in her position

[empty moss]

I think her kit is specifically built to counter playing her as a healer/support. Hell I'm pretty sure All of the protectors feel bad when you try to play them as healers. Which is why she feels bad a lot of the time.

They said they noticed no one is building support items. That's because playing supports as supports feels bad. You will be a mana crippled, low damage, low healing, low health after thought as your team gets steam rolled. In her current state I will never take healing items on her no matter how good they are because healing doesn't work.

[small magnet]

You're not the only one who finds the "feels bad" phrase a bit tired. This post already addressed the topic with data from top players, explanations of abilities, and a debate about the character's position as a healer, protector, duelist, etc. And yet, there's someone who still claims that Elluna has some serious problem.

At this point, I'm surprised that not only those who don't feel comfortable with Elluna's gameplay change champions and see if they feel more comfortable with them because, well, in the end, there is a whole set of champions with different positions.

[empty moss]

I play other champions. They feel good to play for the most part. Elluna does not. Elluna feels like taking on a game where everyone has 4 abilities and you have 2.5 at any given time. And that if the other hunter doesn't have anti-heal. In which case you have 2. Further hobbled by mana. The "Feels bad" argument may not be what you like but when I actually feel like I am tanking on Felix, or actually feel like a DPS on Myth, I want to feel like a protector on Elluna and not a mobile DPS with some healing if I really need it. but then again that's feels like protectors at the moment.

[small magnet]

Well, if you don't feel comfortable being unable to be a "protector" with her despite her having all the abilities to heal, revive, and support your team, then I think it's not really the champion's problem, but yours. I'm sorry to say that if you're not able to play well with her, well, there are other options for you.

Because honestly I've seen many complain about how their skills fail when it comes to assisting teammates, but from what we've received in feedback from more experienced players, it's really more about the player's ability to act than the skills themselves.

[empty moss]

A heal that can be Anti-healed for the entire duration. A Revive that can be stunned off you, and forces her to avoid her mobility while being in the thick of it. And a passive that nerfs her mobility and enhances enemy CC on you into full blown stuns. RMB is still amazing can't knock that one.

[small magnet]

Well, I feel sorry for you, but that's called balancing strengths and weaknesses. She can't be this goddess of life itself. She needs to have weaknesses to face her like other champions do.

That's how the game works, if you directly blame a champion for having their advantages and disadvantages highlighted and feel bad about it then... the fault is already yours, not really hers, because the champion is so well positioned in balance and gameplay that the developers have not had to make many modifications.

[empty moss]

again with this accusation that I want a ultimate one shot kill S tier hunter. She can have weaknesses, I am fine with weaknesses, She shouldn't have full blown counters built into her kit. Anti heal is enough of a counter that we don't need to have her lose her Q when stunned. That's not required if Anti-heal is going to be this all encompassing counter to all healing. Her ultimate is high risk enough that it doesn't need to have the added "Her passive can literally stun it off her"

And I was going to avoid this, but there was a little game called Video horror society. It was a bit like Dead by daylight. The Devs thought the monster was just in a perfectly swell state and didn't make many modifications. It is currently dead.

[small magnet]

How do I explain to this user that a champion, even with disadvantages or advantages, can use items to improve their abilities and tap into the creativity of the system designed for that... Do you feel like Elluna doesn't heal much or support her team? Buy healing items. Does her mobility bother you? Buy boost boots, movement boost, etc. Do you want to go damage-dealing? Buy damage-dealing items. Well, that's how it works. The game offers you items to improve the playability of the champion you're using, and depending on what trait or traits you want to use, you'll make normal or hybrid builds.

If you find it difficult to be in the position you want with her, then just discard her and play another champion.

[empty moss]

Healing items are practically worthless at the moment thanks to anti-healing. I tried everything I could to make Elluna a viable healer, and while I'm not max ranked master of gods she felt bad to play the entire time I tried to make a healer out of her. So now I play her as a kiting DPS. Feels pretty decent, but still feels like playing with a hand behind my back vs Pure DPS with kits that aren't split between DPS and healing. But whatever at this point I have dropped my grievences why Elluna feels bad. Everyone and their hamster says "But she's so broken" I hope your hero feels as good as she does one day

[small magnet]

I won't bother going into this in depth because it's already been discussed. The champion is well positioned, without needing major changes or such drastic modifications. Those complaining about small things like "I hate throwing Wisp when I get hit, I miss Q a lot in fights and that's a skill issue, not mine, and I can't heal with R and that feels like a fatal flaw even though I have Q, which has good AoE range, cast, and utility available," are actually pretty ridiculous attempts to blame the champion and still demand a rework. Well, I'll tell you the truth, it's the player's fault, not the champion's.

Have a nice day.

[empty moss]

You have listed none of my complaints. But ill assume you just threw them in there as examples and not my actual complaints

You as well

[queen valve]

i think they should remove all of her healing but not add anything back

so she can only dash

[small magnet]

Yeah better just remove it of the game

[queen valve]

i think they should just remove elluna actually

[empty moss]

I'll accept as long brall goes as well

[queen valve]

shes too strong and feels too good to play

[small magnet]

Yeah bro so true

[fleet scroll]

Personally I think there is supposed to be this much accessible counterplay to elluna considering how fast/elusive she is

I do agree on the mana problem though. I shouldn't have to be taking dash engine every game for every build I've tried on elluna

But idk devs didn't make many other mana items

[tawdry lark]

I do think every fast hunter should have mana problems when abusing their speed. And I do like how elluna is actually like that cus none of the other fast hunters are.
Now she just goes dash engine and denies that all tho.

[fleet scroll]

Actually if dash engine is removed I already have the next build in mind

[tawdry lark]

May I ask what it is

[oak mantle]

@empty moss illustrating in a better way my feelings on the stun in the passive. Along with mana cost for the dash.

This illustrated my feelings of it feeling bad in ways I failed to do. Especially the bit about any stray lmb procing it.

It is the fact no other hunter is balanced this way is kind of exactly what I meant, but again just could not communicate it properly.

I DO

Agree she is strong though.

I can say all of thaat and it STILL be true.

The fact that like

"What's your rank?" being an argument is insane.

||Or the dude that implied LGBT is an issue for the sake of an argument is coming back in here is insane OOOF. But I guess that makes me the clown apparently. ||

[oak mantle]

This right here.

I have always felt in games that if you HAVE to take an item to play a character, there is a flaw.

[empty moss]

You're fine. It's weird how passionate people are about being against trimming Elluna's kit in any way. Especially when her passive literally enhances enemies CC.

[queen valve]

that guy was an ass for sure

[oak mantle]

<@&1169318934902739024>

Unless of course he be deleting his messages oh no

oh wow

cowardly

[dry sentinel]

No I did that

[oak mantle]

corrected

[hot tangle]

I've always been a fan of the idea that Elluna should be able to ult herself and if she gets killed within the duration, it should apply and Orb of Life effect the her wisp. I mean if the newest hunter is capable of doing that as a free passive, i don't see why it would be so op for Elluna to have to spend an ult for achieving this, an ult with a long ass cooldown for that matter.

[unreal idol]

i swear this is ragebait

[tawdry lark]

It applying the orb of life effect instead of just her ult would not make sense and would just be confusing. And if it was truly just hwr ult, that shit would be op.

And wanting to buff elluna rn has to be 1 of the craziest things I've ever heard

[lofty bluff]

Elluna only looks bad compared to the warcrime of balancing that is Zephyr

Instead of buffing her nerf zeph so he is on the level of everyone else

[tawdry lark]

Nah bro, I love zeph doing 1k dmg in 3 autos

[hot tangle]

what would be confusing about it? that's literally what her ult does to allied wisps if you think about it. Also it shall be noted that the perceived power of Elluna right now it's just because of that tank build with vive infuser, every hunter with two dashes is super broken now because of it. Once that gets inevitably nerfed Elluna will go straight back to the D tier she's been relegated too in every single tierlist of this game since the beginning of open beta.
But if we genuinely think it's still too broken then lets just say a ga effect instead, I'm just suggesting shit as the op asked.

[tawdry lark]

I hope you realize elluna has very high dmg. And her healing is not bad. Her mobility is only 3rd to brall and wukong.
Going "it's just the items" is just bs. Like shiv was totally just the items, that's why they had to buff hwr and now she's back to being bs.

[hot tangle]

Well then why basically every single pro player agrees she's the worst support in the game? it's not just that Zeph is overpowered (which he absolutely is) there is straight just never a single true reason to be choosing her over any other support in the game, as soon as teams start to actually organize themselves her entire kit gets completely countered without a way for you to do anything about it, all that she has to offer for her team is the mobility to escape to a res beacon, the character loses ground exponentially as your mmr rises.

[tawdry lark]

Imagine when elluna who already does really good smg going full tank starts going full dmg. If her dmg isn't hit that shit is gonna be completely stupid.

[tawdry lark]

I am pretty sure no one considers her the worst support rn. You're using outdated info.
And even then, "worst" does not equal bad.

Mb for not being able to instantly stand on someone i kill then ellunq just flies out of the fight instantly and the person is back up and they're full.

You can't blame er and vive infuser when that's only part if the problem not the entire problem.

What tc is probably gonna do is just nerf er and vi and just say she's fine after that. But I'm calling it now, she'll be just as stupid.

[hot tangle]

the funny thing is that people where actually trying to go full dmg before discovering the tank build and it was miserable XD, a single mistake from your side and you're dead because you base hp is really low.
I'm telling you, she really just feels good on that regard right now because with the tank build you can 1v1 people in their faces and, well, tank through their damage. But alright alright, if it troubles you so much then yes we should be nerfing that if we see she still performs good after the tank builds get hit.
But I was never even talking about damage in the fist place myself, the point is that the op here is trying to discuss is that as a support, she just plainly sucks, there's no way around it, so something needs to be done.

I was just suggesting something, if it bad the it's bad, no need to make such a fuzz from it, why not trying to contribute to the conversation yourself and suggest something else then?

[tawdry lark]

She really doesn't suck as a support tho. Her healing is honestly pretty insane. And she barely has to worry about mana now. Calling her a bad "support" is imo just very wrong. She has good healing she can very easily rez, if it's a dive hunter that died in the enemy team that's different but that's a vwry specific scenario and basing it in a single scenario doesn't make sense to me.

And it's just like, you suggested smth that I feel like is clearly op. Not every character has an insta deathbox to deal with that shit. Her ulting herself just would be bad flat out, and changing what her ult does when she dies while casting it on herself then gives inconsistency which doesn't make much sense.

She'd likely be more stupid after the er vi nerfs duento her mobility still being bs. Flying across the map for basically free and no mana cost is definitely fair. There's just no world i see that being ok.
And yea, that isn't an elluna problem that's on dash engine. But there is also the fact her dash just sends her flying, even if it cost more mana i feel like that'd continue to feel dumb just not in fights at least ig. This probably just comes with the new map not restricting it as much.

Calling hwr and bad support honestly just ignores how she supports. Cus if you build for how she is meant to support she does it really well. Just act like she's meant to do exactly what zeoh and evq do so she's a bad support, ok then.

[hot tangle]

that fact that she is the only hunter in the game that has core parts of her kit completely disabled when she's the last standing is inconsistent, no other hunter on the game is punished that hard. What I am describing is literally what her ult already does when cast on allies, you heal them a bit, and if they die during the duration, their wisp gets revived, I'm just saying you should be able to that exact same thing it on yourself, Mercury can literally do that completely for free and I don't see anybody complaining.

and yeah sure you can try to run a build that is optimized with the way she supports using airblast and whatnot, that's still won't matter if the opposing team just knows how to play against a team with an Elluna

I guess I'll just enjoy her brief powerspike while it last and get back to just running from every fight and rez beacon my way to 5th place once all the items that make her playable get nerfed then.

[tawdry lark]

Air blast them on the wisp, counterplay? Insta deathbox it probably, but ad i said before, not every character has that.

[lofty bluff]

Weren't top ellunas in this thread saying shes broken

Eva is the worst support

[last raptor]

Eva isn't too bad right now just not a lot of agency by herself. She needs to be playing with comms. Elluna can at least play for herself

[lofty bluff]

I mean yeah shes not shit

Just like compared to elluna and satan himself

Shes the worst

[hot tangle]

at her current state, sort of, but once her damage and dashes get nerfed (and yeah they probably should indeed, not super agaisnt it) she'll go right back to the spot where she always has been. The tank builds nerf will be the final nail in the coffin.

[queen valve]

i dont mind having an eva if we hot dropping level 1

[mighty vessel]

Elluna good not bad. Hope this helps!

[queen valve]

bumping to keep the thread alive

[fleet scroll]

from now on until next patch nobody should be saying elluna is bad because this exists

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2563113931

[queen valve]

yeah but u had items the op wants to talk about elluna with no items

[blissful dagger]

ts just reaper vive

[thorny fog]

Okay but isn't any hunter bad without items?

No items isn't the game were playing

[queen valve]

correct!

[stiff mortar]

Champs evaluation should not be done watching top 0.1% top tier gods player with perfectly scaled items performing at their peak.

[thorny fog]

Why not? at this point golds-legends are in the same lobbies

[stiff mortar]

Lol, that is because of ranking sys and low population.

But in an ideal scenario because they are just 0.1% of the population and their skill fill what is missing on a hunter.
This is my second season at Master but im very very very far from Micahmunch level of skill and awareness, and i feel that compared to the actual power level of other hunters Elluna is a bit undertoned

[thorny fog]

I don't share this opinion tbh, were playing the game right now not in an ideal situation and also Elluna is really really strong. Shes not hard to play compared to alot of other hunters and gets alot of value from staying alive all the time

[stiff mortar]

I’m not saying she’s weak, only that she relies too heavily on a very specific scaling build (Infuser + Reaper) to stay competitive. On top of that, her ultimate feels too situational compared to most of the others.

[thorny fog]

Yes but while this specific build exists Elluna will be S tier. This leaves three options: Nerf Elluna, Nerf the build or do nothing. Im fine with the first two but I think nerfing the build is the only healthy way for the game.

Still the only reason they would ever nerf the build is because they look at the top "X%" of players and notice that its something that is overtuned to the point that its probebly ruining games for anyone in those lobbies

Right now Elluna's power level is one of the highest in the game. I don't see a point to look at it from a "No items or suboptimal build" perspective because thats not the game were playing

[stiff mortar]

Im sorry mate, but i totally do not agree, Elluna S tier is not real. Or at least is not real if your are not top 0.5% and then every hunter you play is S tier just cause you are so good that you would win even playing a minion lvl 1.

To be "A" tier you have to be full perfect build with full perks, full armor and full scaled Reaper and get at least 3k+ hp. So you always have to play a very very good early game.
Till then:

• Elluna's mana is a joke
• At lvl 7 your ulti is very situational and useless most of the time cause it has been designed for a different pace and pressure level (4 man squad). Everything can interrupt it especially range.
  Compared to other hunters ults it also has no utility for Elluna her self and cant be used in 1v1 situation.
• Dash lvl 4 is bugged cause it does reduce by 1 second your dash cd
• Binding, is slow and to efficiently apply it you have to be so close that you risk more than what you get, cause it does not even stun. Applying over the abyss does not even spike someone when it triggers.
• Basic attack landing time is one of the slowest in the game.

So basically this specifical itemization is the only thing that keeps her alive and oblige you to play selfish\tanky items instead of supportive.

Yes you are fast and u can ran and kite to the moon and back, but then arrives dashes tricks from tetra and wukong, or Brall or squid or else and u are done.

Nontheless she lives cause is quite easy and straightforward to play and i love her so for me is the only hunter that exist i would not play anything else, but to be honest she is just "ok" for sure not S tier.

[oak mantle]

Talking about the build in this way epitomizes how I feel that her success is in spite of her kit.

Like it is as if people make it work to a great degree. But on paper if you read everyone's abilities and everything in hunter select it feels like she should not be as good as she is. It's in spite of that.

[empty moss]

You ever get that feeling where it seems like some the players of the O.P hero all abandon ship the second a minor nerf "destroys their champ." Weird thought.

But yeah reading her kit would make you think she is the weakest, but players have made her work really well despite the anti-synergy(better word for my issue with her kit?) baked in.

[oak mantle]

Saw that for Kingpin, Jin, Brall, Wukong...

Oath

[empty moss]

To be fair Jin is in a state atm. I do, absolutely hate the role Jin fills. But he is not doing too hot.

[oak mantle]

But I am agreeing with you on players leaving hunters when they get nerfed.

[empty moss]

Oh for sure. Jin players may have a point. But the others are pretty spot on.

[oak mantle]

Oh I wasnt saying there was not a good reason. Just including him on the list

But I understand now

[empty moss]

It is all clear. Hard agree for sure.

[stiff mortar]

...And Elluna has been nerfed both in kit and items, c ya next patch or next season.

[lofty bluff]

That character was broken thank god she got nerfed

[fleet scroll]

not nerfed enough

sincerely, an elluna main

[oak mantle]

Yeah

It feels so weird

[dapper loom]

As a HEALER ONLY I agree she's rather weak

But subsidizing her as just a healer is a mistake

She does really good as a DPS role, even without items

High clutch potential character, expected for a anchor

Her DPS and root (keep in mind root used to be a practical insta-kill if you got focused before TTK changes) are an anti snowball

I agree with this post but would ask OP to try out DPS Elluna

[oak mantle]

I do actually play dps and anchor Elluna.

[bold sierra]

1300 messages thats funny

[oak mantle]

[tawdry lark]

Ngl I love support elluna. May not be the best but shit is really fun imo.

[bold sierra]

animal kingdom not my favourite but i gotta give the respect to elluna players for being dedicated wether half of this is useless talk or usefull

[sinful seal]

It is pretty absurd that her passive and ultimate are completely useless in solo

[tawdry lark]

Ngl, I think that is a dumb way to think. 1 character isn't built to be solo and it's the end of the world._.

[lofty tendon]

Well shes the only one in the game with that and its on 2 abilities

maybe even 2.5 if you counted her diminished self heal

[sinful seal]

That’s not a "dumb way to think," it’s literally basic game design critique. A character having zero solo functionality is bad design, not balance

[tawdry lark]

But they don't have "zero solo functionality" you're looking at them having some skills focused on teammates and completely ignoring how they can play by themselves.

So yes, it is really dumb. Because their ult is entirely for their teammates and their passive you are acting like they literally cannot play by themselves, which is just factionally wrong.

You're not even just thinking about design atp, you're saying smth that is simply just wrong.

[gritty kite]

Why should it be a bad design? In LoL noone would ever complain that a support champ cant stand their ground solo against every other role or that adcs are useless with no peel in a 1vs1 versus every other role (outside of support and maybe late late game). In fact hunters need way more abilities that are focused on team support and synergy between the hunter roles, or why do we have something like hunter roles then in the first place? Especially since trio queue, every hunter got tuned to be 1vs1 damage dealer for being a viable pick and its god damn boring.

[sinful seal]

I think you’re mixing up viability with design intent. Yes, she can move, attack, and technically function solo, congratulations on that insight. But from a design perspective, when a character’s entire passive and ultimate have zero solo value and her heal is weaker than a healing potion and every other healer doesn't have this issue, that’s not balance, that’s poor systemic design. Try to keep up.

[sinful seal]

That comparison doesn’t really hold up. In LoL, even pure supports like Janna or Soraka have solo agency like shields, slows, poke, self sustain, etc. Their kits still function when alone, they just excel in team settings. Elluna’s issue isn’t that she’s particularly weak solo, it’s that parts of her kit literally stop existing outside of a team context. That’s just incomplete design. You’re arguing like I said she should 1v1 assassins, which isn’t remotely the point. It’s not about power, it’s about kit functionality. Good design gives a character at least some form of self-synergy, a reason to use their abilities even when their team isn’t around. When two entire parts of the kit vanish outside of a group, I see that as bad character design hidden behind the word "support". Again, I don’t think this is a dumb way of thinking, but maybe your thinking might just be a little limited. You’re conflating role balance with design quality.

[hot tangle]

Also trying to argue that it is fine because she is a support completely ignores the part where all other supports in the game do not have that issue, if it was a standardized disadvantage amongst all supports to have entire part of their kit disable when solo, the you might say it is by design, but it is only her.

There's even characters like Zeph and Oath that not only are perfectly functional without teammates, but if fact have an ungodly high solo carry potential.

Like you cannot even test Elluna's ult on the training grounds because of this, don't come tell me that's by design.