Why I used to love Kingpin

[frosty elbow]

Some hunters should be able to dunk but others to have safety like wukong are too free so there is no risk

If you change shift to heal or something instead of cd refund or even give him damage reduction it would be interesting

Get him away from his need to build vive or at least make the way to become a bruiser

@fallow forum thoughts on this?

[faint kettle]

yea thatll be cool.

but i think if they do that they can do that with his passive instead, then make each of his lvl 4's better for brawling, not just his shift. could be cool but i dont have ideas on what lol.

[frosty elbow]

Hook can be shield or even dash refund instead so he can use days to engage, the hook then dash back for a pick, dunk could be a heal or max hp/ shield to indecisive going close and staying close or make it slow after the dunk like a concussion

[gilded heart]

Level 4 hook he grabs you and breaks your back like bane

[frosty elbow]

I think if he had some sustain and dash reset is changed vive becomes less good and reaper can be better for his brawler playstyle

And he could still build dash centric builds but would not be as strong and kitable no more than any other hunter with armoury

[faint kettle]

really tho lvl 4 hook for brawler playstyle can be like a throw lol. grab, pull, whip at enemy like bowling ball

[frosty elbow]

Maybe level 4 hook stuns on end instead of root so you can combo dunk and the stun is stacked so it’s like void shift stun is long enough you can fall into abyss, and then you don’t have to change the dunk

@fierce vortex sorry for the ping my goat just want to tell all of tc if they are curious about ideas please contact me and we can work things out with other kingpinge mains if you feel the points brought up are valid ❤️

[idle dirge]

You mean the part where he says he's a high elo KP? /s

The setup was just too easy I couldn't resist

[frosty elbow]

Wdym jay I hit legend again this season I’m a 3 split legend

The jay hate is real

[feral ice]

[idle dirge]

That's exactly what I mean, ranked means nothing!

I'm just memeing tho

[frosty elbow]

I shall not fall for such puny rage bait and you distract from the real convo so any opinions?

[idle dirge]

Oh I already talked in this chat, I did a bit of testing too, felt like longclaw was the best option to bandaid the solo agency when kiting. Doesn't help that much for dunking but it's a lot better for threatening gliders.

[frosty elbow]

But I feel he should be maybe retuned abit

[idle dirge]

It feels way less satisfying than playing for dunks though

[frosty elbow]

Hot take shift max should be changed

[idle dirge]

And the gameplay of playing for spikes is a lot different than playing for dunks

[frosty elbow]

Yea that’s why you either reintroduce ways I have outlined above either making him able to dunk again rhough various means or readjust his identity to be more of a tanky bruiser

[frosty elbow]

I’ve allways been a dunk engage player

[idle dirge]

Maybe, but I'll never say it, mobility is too much fun.

[frosty elbow]

Well you can by building with relics and grips for dash cdr

[idle dirge]

You don't understand, ~~you ~~ I do both

Get all the dash cdr

[frosty elbow]

I’m simply giving ideas for other frustrations people have

See convo with kura above

[idle dirge]

Ok, then let me ammend that...

[frosty elbow]

Well you can but you can just play Shiv then

Sorry but pinge shoudnt be perma dash kite guy he’s a big brawler

Bros legs are tiny af

[idle dirge]

Shiv is very different, squishy high damage vs low damage more durability

[frosty elbow]

Well then you are unfortunately not playing the right character sorry

So build tank shiv

Shes built for dash resets unlike kp where I feel he has become very dysfunctional with how his playstyle is with his passive and level 4s

For a system as structured as the armoury he should be changed to make it fit abit better

[simple owl]

this post is such a cope

half a roaster doesnt have "clutch factor"

[frosty elbow]

Is it cope that’s kingpin has lost his identity and should be changed abit to fit 1.0? He is a very old hunter that has changed little

I feel it’s a good time to invite discussion on an update to a hunter I love that hasn’t been updated in a meaningful way in a along time

[simple owl]

he was whole time high-mid A tier hunter

[frosty elbow]

Doesn’t mean he can’t be dysfunctional

And he is now not so good

[simple owl]

but he never was dysfunctional

"till now"

[frosty elbow]

I mean I think he has been for awhile his kit has just been so good his flaws have been ignored and rite fully so because he was so good I have for a long time thought about changes to him

[simple owl]

TC dont have that many resources

they will not rework hunter that is fine

• there are other hunters that deserve that rework more

like Jin

[frosty elbow]

I am offering options and to work with them to make it easier

[simple owl]

I mean I can only agree with that

kingpin should be somehow compensated for dunk nerf

but I just dislike how ppl are bias towards 1 hunter

[frosty elbow]

I never disagreed about other hunters being changed I am simply offering ideas to make a hunter I play a lot

[simple owl]

like if there was post about carbine

[frosty elbow]

I am not qualified to make balanced on every hunter the best

[simple owl]

nobody would care about my boi 😭

[fallow forum]

? I replied and upvoted posts about changes/nerfs to Jin, Joule, Brall, zeph bhop, celeste ult, and hudson. Please do not shit on my post by saying I don't give a fuck about anyone else.

I've shown support for many characters that I DO NOT PLAY that I've felt were given unjust changes that made the character less enjoyable for many people. I would hope that some of them would return the favor.

[jolly sable]

Bring back dunking and just use emergency platform

Just nerf the monkey please

[wanton mango]

It’s funny because this is the exact problem I warned about in another thread, making itself apparent after all the changes are done and over with

The problem with dunks never was that it was an instant kill, it was the lack of counterplay on certain characters (brall, wukong), and that without a dunk, some characters are just useless (kingpin, Jin)

Splitting dunks into “True Dunks” and the current “Soft Dunks” for certain characters abilities would make more sense, but it’d be even better to entirely revert the change and just make it easier to dash cancel out of spikes entirely, and make dunks for kingpin reset on successful dunk, regardless of kill

[wanton mango]

#1405301302732394586 message

[celest dirge]

ngl I think dash cancelling momentum is bad for everything and should not exist. I agree about splitting dunks tho. But not for Jin. fuck Jin. He's always existed entirely on various mechanics that are either terrible or oppressive, he just needs a bit of a rework. The old fantasy is too binary and the game has been moving away from it.

[fallow forum]

Just got 1 dunked from full hp by Jin Q2 only as Beebo who has high base hp and I had ~150 bonus hp from greenwood grasp with full green armor. Very unclear what characters when dunks will kill

Not saying Jin is op or anything, but it's weird how characters can build Sword of Seven Suns and still have mobility, where if KP builds it, I'm basically rooting myself.

Constantly people on this thread are saying that I must make tradeoffs for damage even when KP benefits significantly less from damage amp. But somehow these other characters don't? (or at the very least the tradeoff is negligible for them)

Ghost dashes across the abyss at me in tournament, does not care. I dunk them, they just mantle and gun me down.

Got 1 dunked by a Wukong from full hp as Kingpin after I dunked him from 90% hp and he lives.

Somehow abilities like void stun and tetra dunk can magically be cast (with consistency) before KP slam after hook now. Seen more voids and ellunas "dunk" with stun/root this patch than KP.

This sounds like venting, which it somewhat is, but I'm trying to find examples in game that just straight up feel like BS.

I've seen a lot of people suggest that you make KP Slam level 4 a true dunk. But this does not fix him lol. I'm still sacrificing my ability to even play the game just to be able to dunk again (MAYBE) when other characters build full damage (which they are already incentivized to do because they are "damage dealer" characters) and lose negligible amounts of utility/survivability in return MASSIVE damage increases and the ability to 1 shot someone with dunk...

Where KP loses cdr, mobility, survivability, map tempo, hp(because you will be dying and losing passive stacks lol)... and more. Just to be able to dunk (MAYBE) again. But how can I even get the hook dunk when my mobility is now terrible? Going for a dunk is just (word for self unaliving) for KP.

Another point. It's just better to pull a target to land (unless you can pull them low enough into abyss, which is super dangerous for KP anyway in most situations). They get cced for longer on land, so mantling after hook is just reducing the cc duration for them. Might as well drag them to land because dunking them into the abyss just lets them go free faster lol.

If they have armor, it won't 1 shot anyway. So I'm basically playing for early game KP (where people have weaker armors), even though KP is TERRIBLE early game. It contradicts his scaling curve.

Go for a dunk that I'm for sure dead if it fails because I've committed my dashes out in the abyss and won't get resets off dunking someone? Or I sit afk in a bush and don't play the game? Fucking crazy

[celest dirge]

Genuine question here bc I don't know: Would just increasing the damage on his slam fix this? Like if it did enough damage to guarantee the dunk, then you have dunk back, no?

Or is there a reason why that would not work

[light portal]

I do find it odd that Wu's RMB remains significantly better at dunking, considering how non-commital it is. KP combo demanded you burn multiple abilities and usually both your mobility dashes to land it.

Now KP lands in a spot where his kit is terrible at bringing someone down into his dunk range, and his presence on land is reliant on team followup. So the instant you're disadvantaged, teams can just flat out disrespect the character and run at you.

[young anchor]

Likely would. But there's also a lot of bs stuff with eplats and some other characters abilities just going off before his slam.

Decreasing the cast rime might make it feel stupid if it also does more dmg; but that's the only thing i can think of to maybe help.

[fallow forum]

How would there be any guarantee? Armor gives varying amounts of reduction. Characters have different base hp. Some build greenwood grasp even on non-tanks. There are a list of bugs that can save someone from a dunk, even if it was "supposed" to kill that have existed since beta. It's not possible to know if a dunk will kill.

adversity engine, painkiller charm also change if it would kill or not

So yeah, I don't think it can ever be guaranteed in the current system.

Meaning, I don't know if I'm gonna get my dash reset or not. And playing with unknowns from a competitive standpoint is just kinda dumb, ya feel?

Should I risk a game just because I'm unsure if the game will allow me to kill, vs if I play well and land my stuff it should kill (assuming no bugs)

[faint kettle]

do u think its fair to land a single hook from afar and get a free kill because of a roughly 12 second CD from safety?

especially when third partying? i dont rly find that as a fair thing. i dont think hes broken either with dunks, just his dashes, but i feel like the main issue rn is some champs being able to dunk at full, not that kp is not able to. it should either be everyone can or no one can and it seems lame if kp cant while building dmg.

[young anchor]

It's the exact reason kp has always been at least A tier. This dunking change didn't even make him weak just hurt the main rhing that seems to have made him fun for a lot of people, which is very fair cus I do play kp so yea I understand it.

They can't really do anything without basically completely undoing the dunk changes, which I personally don't want

[faint kettle]

i’d have fun oneshotting someone from a safe distance too if i still played him lol

the change definitely did make him weak tho. losing a oneshot is a big balance change, it’s not just a fun factor loss.

weaker i should say. i don’t think he’s bad because of the change.

[young anchor]

He definitely isn't weak, he can still get pick really reliably it's just not insta killing the person so the team can try and save the peraon and more tanky hunters just live.

Idk of anyone genuinely thinks he weak in this thread. Cus that isn't really what it was discussing.

[faint kettle]

i’m saying that as a response to me accidentally saying the change made him weak when i meant to say weaker. not as a response to someone calling him weak.

i do think being full hp and having a team full commit to try and save u is fair since u are burning ur dashes to try and engage on the save, and the person who got hooked will forsure lose a lot of hp after getting stunned if they don’t die to team shots.

[fallow forum]

This is not the full story. In competitive, people will often just engage on the Kingpin and cc him before gets anything off, or teammates can dash over and air blast/cc/displace kp before kp has a chance to get dunk off. The airblast doesn’t even have to be on the target that is hooked. Resulting in a worse outcome for Kingpin. The exception is when there is a physical barrier in the way.

And what happens if you miss the slow ass hook? They beat your ass.

[faint kettle]

that’s where ur team help for the dive tho right

[fallow forum]

Or when you hook and they stun you into one shot because hp is fake af considering I got 3 hit by a myth today? Or when 1/3 of the roster counters kp hook slam even without relics?

You know what, let’s just remove every interaction that’s fun from every character. Because it frustrates me! Remove jin, zeph, wukong, oath podracing because I don’t like when they go fast. Let’s remove wukongs pole because I don’t like when he slams. Let’s remove carbine dash reset because I dont like when he moves. Let’s remove myth’s bow because her shots kill me. Let’s remove joule’s passive cuz it kills me. Let’s remove shrike cuz she 2 shots me early. Let’s remove hudson cuz his wire spam is annoying. Let’s remove tetra rocks cuz I don’t like rocks. Let’s remove celeste short dash cuz my she have 2 type of dash. Let’s remove ghost wall nade cuz he get rewarded for missing. Let’s remove brall ult because he becomes immortal. Let’s remove beebo car cuz it scoop me.

Remove car cuz I cant drive

Remove wasd because I only have 1 hand

Remove z axis cuz it too hard to understand

Make kp hook go slower cuz I can’t dodge

[faint kettle]

spazzing for no reason lol.

[fallow forum]

Can’t wait til it happens to your characters and you’re mad

[faint kettle]

why are you getting stunned when u are hooking?

[robust bluff]

as a crysta main I will accept these terms

[faint kettle]

i liked kp lol.

u need to view conversations better. u come into them raging already and treating anyone that doesn’t agree with ur view as an opponent in a debate lol.

what kind of convo is that? should this just be an echo chamber for kp that want to oneshot someone?

[fallow forum]

Because I’ve seen how this ended with Joule.

[faint kettle]

it’s good to view conversations as a conversation instead of trying to link it to previous things with different ppl that are unrelated.

the only issue with kp rn is if he builds dmg and can’t dunk while others that build dmg can, because if the game is looking as dunks always oneshotting as op then that’s the balance change they’re making and every dunk should follow that, no outliers that just randomly oneshot

but if he still dunks with dmg build then there is zero issue. can’t run other op builds if u want to run a dmg build and that makes sense

[fallow forum]

Okay sure, but other characters don’t have the same sacrifices that KP makes from building damage, even if it DID one shot

Ex. Wukong doesn’t lose mobility and survivability from not building dash haste

[faint kettle]

kp stoll has two dashes and dash resets off of a lvl 4. even if it isn’t infinite he has great kiting.

songbow build just makes his kiting OP

and also i think a lot of characters do suffer that. u are just targeting like a few OP champs. what if i said i don’t like that wukong can’t perma podrace now and doesn’t have huge dunk range it was fun and helped me survive and get one shots to pop crowns. it sounds silly because of the imbalance with it.

[fallow forum]

Jin and wukong move faster than kp with songbow at lvl 0

[faint kettle]

like if they want to move away from dunks it would make 0 sense to give kp full hp oneshot. moving away from oneshot dunks isn’t that bad for balancing.

i mean those are two assassin type classes that are supposed to move faster than kp

idk why someone would displace an enemy and also move as fast as the two fastest champs lol

[fallow forum]

Movement is survivability in this game.

[faint kettle]

yea and look at more than just jin and wukong bro. u are comparing kp movement to the two fastest melee champs and not the other champs in game.

u think he struggles with movement?

[fallow forum]

Oath is faster than him lmao

I think he struggles with staying alive unless you only build for trying to live

Wukong builds damage/cdr, can kill with dunk, and can keep his team alive til the circle becomes the size of a penny.

[faint kettle]

yea cuz he is op.

so let’s make kp op yöp to match wukong?

[fallow forum]

No

I don’t want to be op

[faint kettle]

meanwhile u are the dude that made threads complaining about wukong how does that make sense lol.

[fallow forum]

I want to have fun

[faint kettle]

then we shouldn’t compare him to wukong for balancing?

[fallow forum]

But you’re the one that brought up balance lol

[young anchor]

Btw these might as well be the same. Cus op = fun in this game. Idol hudson is the perfect example of what I mean

[fallow forum]

Hmm maybe

[young anchor]

Ik it isn't really what you're saying they just tend to relate to one another

[faint kettle]

balance is an important thing that is the reason im here yea

if its just about being busted and having fun then i can understand. i wont agree w it but can understand it.

i enjoyed wukong abusing when he had perma podracing shit was fun lol

[fallow forum]

Whatever. I’m not gonna responds while I’m pissed because it gets nowhere.

In fact, I’m tired of fighting against changes that make the game less fun.

I made a post about this phenomenon where interesting things that characters do are constantly being removed and the hunters are being homogenized into a boring mass of characters.

I warned everyone like 6 months ago.

[faint kettle]

i also enjoyed kp abusing shift max

[fallow forum]

That truly had to go away, at least in the way it was. You could disengage while 1 shotting someone lol.

[young anchor]

Sometimes you gotta gove up fun to make stuff feel more fair. I feel like lots of people ignore that.

[young anchor]

Another example of op = fun lol

[fallow forum]

True. Hudson dash+wind rings was way too op

Xd

They removed all the fun stuff with wind rings and I was sad, even though kp didn’t have that type of interaction

[faint kettle]

yea its fun to abuse something and just do insane shit in game. but its healthy for the game to be looked at from the other lens and see if thats good to play against. thats where balancing comes in and why it matters, bc w out it ur not really gonna have ppl to play with since ppl will quit, or everyone is just gonna have some cringe oneshot perma cdr build and the playerbase will die out too

just gotta hope the balance patches actually feel balanced. thats my issue rn is there is a lack of balance in them lol

[fallow forum]

Well we don’t disagree here

[young anchor]

This isn't exactly related. But as of late it's felt like beebo just threw the concept of "play against" out the window. He was never fun to play against and it keeps getting worse and worse like they don't care about the other side of his interactions.

[faint kettle]

pls dont talk abt that guy

that champ just needs to be removed not adjusted

👍

[young anchor]

They'll never buff hudson so will never feel balanced

Balancing is imo the biggest issue rn. Wukong makes me want to quit the game rn lol.

[faint kettle]

yea hes pretty annoying. i dont play him anymore cuz im enjoying other champs but his rmb just so good lol.

[young anchor]

He legitimately needs a cd on his rmb, not even joking. And his ult needs to be massively nerfed.

[faint kettle]

they gotta first look at some of these op ass armory items, adjust those. why was diadem not hit in the last patch but they nerf isochron which was a more modest cdr item that everyone can use compared to one that was insanely broken on only a few champs. then after they adjust armory items they adjust champs.

but the issue is they are really focused on releasing champs that its hard to do all that. somewhere someone said they arent able to balance as well because of the effort it takes to release champs, which i understand, but that is really annoying lol.

[young anchor]

This gonna take them months bro 😭 game gonna die due to balancing before they actually get around to even somewhat balancing the game.

I hate how that's how it legit feels due to how slow balancing seem to go. This is the fastest it's ever been yet it's still slow tbh.

[fallow forum]

I’m a Beebo main now

[faint kettle]

yea ik lmao. i just feel like they should start with more basic armory items next season instead of potentially broken ones and if they are too weak then buff them. thats a lot better than having some giga broken shit on a few characters.

[young anchor]

This should be bannable

[young anchor]

100% agree playing vs diadem crysta or beebo is certainly an experience that could make anyone wanna quit.

It is better if stuff is weak rather than op. It's why I kind of wish they'd gut wukong then slowly bring him back up

[faint kettle]

yea, and especially for armory. its dangerous bc there might be an item that someone can just break like diadem while others cant. so having stuff weaker means u are playing base supervive with CDs that u have to dodge and land etc. which is fun, then have a more unique build later with shit that isnt game breaking.

just hope next season is good cuz if not then yea ima be busy for a while til this game is better lol.

[young anchor]

This might be a hot take, i feel like supervive would be way more fun if it didn't have any cdr in it.

[faint kettle]

not rly hot take imo. i can agree w that if they just balance the cds better on some champs it can be fine.

[young anchor]

They kind of forced some hunters into cdr due to stupid long cds. If they just shorten those cds then the game would ba in a pretty good spot imo. Other than y'know wukong

[stoic swift]

I felt this way and just stopped playing except for scrims / tourneys. Basically all the top EU players have just started playing deadlock at this point because major changes to the game like these go thru with no player testing but ranked restrictions stay on. It sucks but being a high level player in this game rn just isn't fun unless you play certain characters so all you can do is play and suffer or not play.

[fallow forum]

Yeah I'm starting to learn this

[fallow forum]

Just had sword of seven suns+feytech+burning plam (ik burning palm probably won't have any effects) and could not dunk white armor celeste in warmup

note: was sword 1, feytech 3, but still insane that I "built damage" just like ppl suggested and it didn't do anything except make me die instantly

[fallow forum]

Spike height ~ glide line
Sword = Sword of Seven Suns
[bots] have less hp than players
Target is a player unless marked with [bot]

Sword 3 + Feytech 3 + Burning Palm 3 = no kill on white armor Celeste [bot]

Sword 3 + Feytech 3 + Lockdown = no kill on green armor myth

Sword 3 + Feytech 3 + Lockdown = no kill on white armor brall

Sword 3 + Feytech 3 + Lockdown = no kill on green armor Crysta[bot] (she was missing about 100 hp beforehand)

Sword 3 + Feytech 3 + Thunderbolt 3 + Lockdown + Joule was missing 50-100 hp = no kill on white armor Joule
https://www.twitch.tv/spy_sv/clip/BlushingPolishedCiderWOOP-95YfDV4l9-bicbs8

Safe to assume anything that didn't work on X character with Y won't work against higher base hp characters or better armor

From my testing, these are the results @fierce vortex
After building every item that I can to increase spell damage, or damage in general with sword, I still could not dunk white armor, squishy hunters.

[median minnow]

It looks like she had almost full health before the shot. I know the patch notes explicitly said high hp means they wouldn’t insta kill dunk. Idk if that means it takes armor into consideration or not. But she looked like she was still at like 80% health, so maybe that has something to do with it, since they mention more around 70% or lower as lethal? Like hit the with a more powerful attack first, then go for the kill?

[fallow forum]

but other hunters are building full damage and 1 dunking tanks lol

it does take armor into consideration btw

[median minnow]

Is kingpin dunk attack damage dealing? Cuz it could just be that the dunk attacks of the other champions deal more base damage

[fallow forum]

in game so hard to respond rn

[median minnow]

Like if Brawl’s dunk is a proper attack, then it’d be more likely to dunk on its own, where maybe for kingpin it’s more expected now to prep with a bigger shot first

Good luck on game!

Hmmm numbers wise it doesn’t look like kingpins slam is lower base damage, but it scales a lot slower.

Which would lead me to believe either they out scale significantly by late levels, or have maybe higher tiered armory items?

[fallow forum]

It's not that simple with KP to do an lmb on a target you're dunking for a few reasons, but if you dash > LMB > dunk, your LMB travels about as fast as your dash and won't hit unless your target is literally immobile.

[median minnow]

I’ve been trying to take a peek at Brall builds since the Kingpin builds I see are usually focused more on the cc than damage and the one thing I notice then is that if you’re using harmonic edge to get more powerful LMB you’re missing out on extra ability damage from something like Rampager which is a Brall signature that at full stacks doubles it own damage bonus

If LMB is as hard to fit in as you say, maybe that’s the item holding you back?

IM AN IDIOT THATS NOT HARM EDGE

I take back everything I just said

I’m not sure how thunderbolt works super well, but if it needs to alternate LMB with abilities and not just alternate abilities with other abilities, that could still be part of the problem if the shots miss

[rough girder]

Shrike casually spiking anyone with a single shot

[fallow forum]

I think you're misunderstanding the core of the problem.

The thunderbolt is for the +12% ability damage, not the passive. I built damage to make my slam deal as much damage as possible, akin to what Jin players are building now. This is because the damage threshold for slamming is calculated AFTER the slam, so ability damage helps to reach that threshold from slamming. The 70% or whatever. However, Kp slam doesn't do much in the first place. So even with all amplifiers in place, I cannot dunk someone. But Jin and Wukong still can.

[median minnow]

Sorry, I’m reading it from a wiki and i misread it thinking you only got the ability damage bonus during the rest of the effect

It makes a lot more sense after knowing the proper effect

I main my supports/healers so I’m not used to the damage focused items

It’s even more weird then though, cuz it looks like Kingpin’s actually has more base damage (~270 vs ~91). It only scales 15% level 2&3 while Brall gets 20%; but on level 4 it does an extra 75% midair, which would shoot it up far higher than the missing

So number wise I’m not sure how they’re doing it when you’re not able to

I’m not sure how the bonus percentages work though on if they add together or multiply on the prior total

[fallow forum]

nah ur good, I was just clarifying

[fallow forum]

lvl 4 is not 75% midair, it's based on height. Jumping, for example, would only give like 22% bonus at the peak (or something like that)

[fallow forum]

https://www.twitch.tv/spy_sv/clip/MoralInexpensiveBaboonHumbleLife-Qc0GwecpBtJN3E3M

Wukong 1 shots me through red armor

1 slam did 550

I wasn't even low in abyss

[young anchor]

Normal wu moment

[real pollen]

Perfect example of why dunk changes were definitely not supposed to be a fix for wukongs disgusting broken kit

Kp and Jin should surely suffer for this to be in the game I think

[young anchor]

Kind of wish they just made it heat based. Full smg builds one shot for ALL characters, but if not then they need to have decent heat.

[real pollen]

I’m being so serious dunking was fine until wukong was made

Only champ that has no risk to his dunk and can do it from brazil while ur in china

At least brall was forced to commit something if he fucked up

Even if it’s a 20s cd

[young anchor]

I never liked it. Cus the counter became "avoid abyss" si you got forced to avoid a good chunk of the map even on the old map. And being literally forced to stare at a jon ovwr the abyss as last for a solid 5 minutes still haunts me to this day.

When they added eplats it became bettwr but then you had to pay the 500 gold tax to even play the game, with old map and eplats as they are now it might've been fine honestly. Still eay too much abyss

[real pollen]

This is just insane cope there were plenty of ways to play around it

And it also left room for dunk champs to be punished if they fucked up

(Brall to a lesser extent)

[craggy hornet]

While I think that KP just not being able to dunk anything that isn't already half dead kills what was his signature, I am more bothered by wukong and Tetra being barely touched by the dunk nerfs due to how much dmg their dunk does @loud valley
Depending on wanted direction, I would buff dunks for certain characters (KP) or nerf it even further for others (wukong tetra)
It's also worth noting that Tetra and Wukong dunk are way easier to hit for more reward.

[young anchor]

Fight a jin iver abyss before. You didn't. EVER, because you couldn't.

[real pollen]

I have done this numerous times?

1.0 and beta?

[young anchor]

Literally only kp got punished for going for dunks. But even he did not due to his hook. People say this and they are legit lying.

[real pollen]

Ur asking for fixes to abyss combat cuz ur champ is giga omega useless in abyss

When he should be?

[young anchor]

The jin was bad. Or you were playing myth and just 1 shot him. Jin should win over the abyss 100% of the time if he's good.

[real pollen]

Disagree

If I’m playing Hudson and chasing him over abyss I’m sure as agree

[young anchor]

Bro have you seen the bs dunks jin has gotten where people took a single fucking step over the abyss and he jist comes out of no where and they 1 shot. Calling that fine is fucking beyond me

[real pollen]

But I also don’t think every champ should be playable in abyss that’s just me

[young anchor]

Beo I PLAY OTHER CHARACTERS. People acting liek i only play hudson is legit gonna make me crashout.

[real pollen]

Ive legit only seen u play it and you perma complain about him not being beta Hudson on here

So what else am I supposed to think

If you play any champ with a dash that doesn’t make him stand still for the first second of the cast Jin is very outplayable over Abyss

Or here’s a thought just don’t fight him in thanos terrirory

You wouldn’t fight a ghost when he has 400 walls around him how is it different

[fierce vortex]

@fallow forum thanks for collecting clips and sharing! Will be discussing with the team this week

[young anchor]

I've literally never said "bring back beta hudson" seriously..?

[fallow forum]

np, enjoy the hummus lmao

[young anchor]

This just a lie tho.

And the below msg is LITERALLY what I'm saying was the fucking problem. Ghost nade is actually dodgable, you do not dodge jon dunk if the jin is half decent, and that is just true otherwise why do people just stare at him over the abyss? Cus they can definitely "outplay" him over the abyss. No, it's cus they are almost guaranteed to lose. Tell me 1 decent player that doesn't play kp, jin, or brall that would fight a jin iver the abyss before 1.0 unless they had eplat, epanguin, or airblast. There just isn't 1, cus it was idiotic to do that.

I'm like pissed at the reasons people give for why jin's dunk was fine so I apologize if this msg comes off as mean.

[real pollen]

This is what you’ve said with some of the Hudson buffs you’ve advocated for in the past

And Jin dunk is certainly outplayable if not dodgeable if you put yourself in the brain of the Jin player for even half a second

I agree that getting dunked from off screen feels horrible while he flies out of nowhere but let’s be real how often does that happen in comparison to you playing into his win condition

[fierce vortex]

just a reminder to keep the convo focused on gameplay, drop clips if there are examples you want to talk about. Talking in hypothetical can always veer into the territory of calling out or dunking on individuals.

As folks have been getting heated and passionate about feedback (which I appreciate the engagement), I've been seeing more personal-leaning arguments more attacking the individual than the gameplay

[real pollen]

Arguing that a decent player wouldn’t fight him over abyss proves my point exactly

[fierce vortex]

Put simply, saying "XYZ mechanic sucks and I hate it" 👍
"This person sucks their feedback is wrong" 👎

[faint kettle]

i hope if u guys adjust KP dunking we get info on why. i dont like the fact that there was a dunk "change" that only impacted some characters. if he is buffed to oneshot ppl like others do, why do we even have the dunk change in the first place? id much rather have all dunks just dunk ppl instead, or all of them do require dmg before the dunk,like it seemed like we would have with this change.

[real pollen]

Revert dunk change and and rework monkey and this problem is fixed I stg

[fallow forum]

One other thing that I'm not sure if I've mentioned or not, is that it is not clear when you can dunk someone anymore. A lot of times it feels like a guessing game. "I might dunk that guy, get the reset and live, or he's gonna barely live and his team is gonna gun me down over abyss while I have no dashes." It creates a lot of frustration, especially when I think I should kill (and I'd argue that there needs to be something telling me I will or will not dunk this person if it lands).

Especially when people have different types of armor. Red armor? I have 0 chance of dunking unless they are super low. White armor? Maybe. Green? Ehh.... Blue? Now we're pushing it.

Before it was pretty clear outside of niche situations. "If I hit the dunk, I kill." Now I'm constantly having to second guess myself, especially with KP since his slam damage is so low no matter what I build.

Wukong can still one shot (can kill through red, as shown above which is CRAZY) from building like 1 or 2 damage items, depending on enemy armor. Doesn't really feel like this patch hit him at all in terms of dunking.(except for the range nerf, obv, which is still way longer than anyone elses)

That loss of clarity in gameplay is pretty frustrating as well.

And the reverse goes as well, I should be able to know when I'm dunkable or not.

[rough girder]

I'm not pro or even good Kingpin I have different problem with Kingpin.

Since I never get to feel old or even ene dunking because my sever lack of skill (I almost never been in a situation where I could even dunk since most of fights were on the ground), I've experienced different set of problems.

For a close range character, you kinda expect him being threatening when he gets to you... But he isn't. (Obviously except dunking part).

His weapon deals less damage than a wet noodle, even if you hit enemies in the back (backstab would fit Jin more, but alas, that's more of a flavor nitpick) . The only good part about it is that it shreds armor, but it also requires slow down your rate of fire.

His ult have insanely (relatively) long startup accompanied with a really close range, not to mention fact that it slows you... Just to do nothing. Every time I land ultimate on someone, I still question myself if I really landed it or it missed somehow.

Yeah he have two dashes, but I wouldn't say that feel like I'm actually that mobile compared to other characters.

His only redeeming part is his grab. This ability is only reason why I still pick Kingpin from time to time. Landing it, especially with Rock girl or Carbine to create a death zone extremely satisfying, but again, that's all you can really do.

I still remember the moment where it was level 15 endgame, my team vs last team. I was walking forward three enemies to act like sort of front line for my team... Just to enemy dash through me, completely ignore the fact that I'm shooting their backs, killed my entire team and then turned back and killed me as well. And I had gun damage build.

Literally picture below

[open halo]

the before and after still makes me giggle 😭

monkey king said I’m taking you down with me

[faint kettle]

i mean he isnt rly a dps role. u sound like u want to go in and nuke ppl. try picking someone better designed for that like shiv for example. he is more of a controller/bruiser. he can stay in fights longer because of his hp, stun, and 2 dashes with resets.

also his hook is good for omre than just grabbing ppl. one of the best kps in the game imo is my friend despi and he uses it as another part of his kit instead of just a grab an enemy button. he will use it to prevent things like a tetra slam etc. hes very good at that mid fight.

[solid pond]

also getting dunk from out of vision vs getting grabbed from out of vision and then dunked

[young anchor]

At least one is dodgable when you know it's there. The other one you just don't do snything against

[faint kettle]

both are similar lol

wukong is just more threatening. both are annoying.

[young anchor]

It really isn't hard to dodge kp hook of you're aware of it. If you aren't then yea you normally don't dodge it

[faint kettle]

yea but if u are in a fight gg. and its safe too just like wukongs.

both of the abilities are annoying to deal with wukongs is just way stronger.

also the hook hitbox has issues where it grabs u when it shouldnt have. not sure if its just lag or the hitbox but u can be on the outside of his hand and it grabs, if thats the actual hitbox that is mental but im guessing its lag.

[rough girder]

I mean problem that he feels like least damage amongst all characters (excluding healers)

My problem is not that his damage is not great, but the fact that you can literally ignore him in fights

and his tankiness or health would not matter

[celest osprey]

hard agree with op and thread topic

[cursive bobcat]

This. I hope the solution wont be to just buff Kingpin damage on dunking ability. Or we just can go back to old dunking mechanic. At least with the old dunking you knew that it will spike and not have to play a guess game if the hunter has enough damage to spike. If there will be any more adjustments for the current solution, then you have to do something like calculating downward movement/spiking before actual ability damage of the dunk ability
Not to mention that the current mechnic for spiking is for me just a bandaid solution until devs come up with a decent idea what they will do about the abyss play, too much abyss on the map and dunking.

[fallow forum]

I agree with everything in this message, but the hp, while true, is a bit of a bait. Yes, he has about 1.2k more hp than DPS hunters, but his armor tends to break well before that, so the effective hp gain would be more like 200-600 w/ shield (depending on if enemy has %hp damage/armor shred/wukong who can 1 shot through red armor).

The max hp gets a lot better when you run items like vive infusor, which imo KP almost needs to have, bc normal potions take too long to heal him back to full, and drinking a hypervive mid fight is LUL. (I say almost needs to have bc you can do fine w/o it IF you have enough tools to force a play). But just the extra HP alone? It's kinda fake (in BR), although technically does buy you time.

And yeah, you can save the hook to cancel abilities. Just be aware that funny characters like Wukong won't have their pole cancelled unless you drag them ALL THE WAY to the ground, so you have to shift backwards after you hook them just to make them lose height.

[fallow forum]

client-server desync is pretty bad sometimes

I have clips of me grabby slamming people in the middle of my hitbox, but because I was moving too fast relative to them, it showed like I was supposed to hit, but I didn't

[young anchor]

Man do I love when brall dunks me from 2 hitboxes away.

[fallow forum]

They move faster than the server

[celest dirge]

I'm not sure how they could change KP to have 100% consistent dunks unless they literally just made old dunk part of his passive

But in theory, if they gave dunk % current health damage, that could make his dunks against high hp targets more consistent without majorly impacting his overall kill power

[frosty elbow]

Make hook level 4 a stun that stacks with dunk

I have plenty of ideas about revamping all of kp kit I’ve allready said

[surreal sparrow]

Make dunk from a backshot instadunk, ez fix and adds another layer of skill

[celest dirge]

wouldnt that just

make people turn around as they get hooked?

pretty sure you can look in a direction while you're hooked

[young anchor]

It just need to do more dmg tbh.

[faint kettle]

no it doesnt cuz then what is the point of the dunk change lol?

u are saying make it do more dmg so it can oneshot ppl, then the game just "nerfed" dunks cuz ppl complained, only to make them worse bc u still get oneshot but some ppl also just get more dmg now even if it isnt a dunk and its a regular stun

they just need to nerf the other dunks so it fits w kp, or revert the dunk changes so dunks dunk any hp

[young anchor]

Tetra, wukong, and jin all have dunked me from literally full health. Like idk what it even changed

[faint kettle]

yea those either need to match kp or completely revert the change. but to buff dunk dmg to make it oneshot cuz those ppl havent really been dunk nerfed is just buffing dunks lol

and i dont think anyone wants regular dunks buffed

[young anchor]

Make it do more dmg so if he builds full dmg he can still one shit, that's what i meant. Like if they build full dmg one shotting is kind of fair but they just don't need to.(by they i mean jin wu tetra)

[young anchor]

A good amount if people do. Imo this dunk changes actually might've made dunks worse due to eplats costing so much more and a good ampunt if dunkers atill literally dunk from full health

[faint kettle]

bro no one wants regular dunks buffed. there has never been a single thread about it, and there has been toooooo many threads abt nerfing it. even spy made a thread about wukong. we all know wukong is op cuz of dunks too.

im saying regular dunks as in before this patch, no one was saying we should buff them. everyone said its fine or nerf them.

[celest dirge]

I mean I do agree that KP needs a real dunk to function.

Other characters don't.

[faint kettle]

i dont agree w that i think jin is prob the only one that needs a dunk

[celest dirge]

Like it's 100% of the time always Melee characters that are responsbile for certain mechanics being broken.

Jin....

[young anchor]

He honestly doesn't. Just cus hook is insanly good for picks even if he isn't one shotting.

[celest dirge]

ugh.

KP without dunk is completely team reliant.

I don't think that's a good thing in this game.

[faint kettle]

ppl are able to play KP as an assassin class bc of how strong a oneshot dunk is that u can do from safety by just grabbing first. if u miss grab u arent rly committed to the dunk.

and he has double dash with insanely strong relic synergy to just fight ppl and stay alive.

[celest dirge]

?

[faint kettle]

but he rly shouldnt be doing that imo

[celest dirge]

What?

[faint kettle]

whats confusing about that messsage?

[young anchor]

I wouldn't say completely cus he can still do an insane amount of dmg. Just more so than with a dunk

[faint kettle]

definitely not completely team reliant.

[celest dirge]

Assassin KP doesn't... really interact with dunks? Like it's been tested, even if you build full damage it's not enough to guarantee a dunk

slam on the ground isn't the same thing

[faint kettle]

if u are able to stun and get someone to below 50% while also completely fucking their positioning up is insanely valuable. the only ppl who disagree are the ones that are used to oneshotting the ppl instead of just ruining their position and hp lol

[faint kettle]

yea idk what ur talking about here lol

i think ur confused on what im saying

[celest dirge]

I don't see how KP clutches against good players without a team

[young anchor]

Assassin kp was so fucking atrong due to grapple more thwn anything.

[celest dirge]

if he can't dunk

[faint kettle]

im saying kp before, is an assassin class bc of how busted the dash 4 and relics are, on top of a free dunk. u can land a grab from safety and oneshot someone, while having one of the best kiting kits in the game.

[brave cloud]

Guys

[faint kettle]

and on top of that kp is very good in teamfights bc a stun just leads to someone dying. if u guys play with a good kp and just shoot the guy he stuns they die lol

[brave cloud]

I'm about to make a new thread called "Why I used to love Wukong"

[celest dirge]

wouldn't it be better to move away from that in favor of staying true to his original identity?

[faint kettle]

LETS GO

[faint kettle]

if they do sure. this thread isnt about nerfing or changing his kit to allow him to oneshot dunk ppl tho.

[young anchor]

Haha imagine not liking the "reworked" version of your character more. Me as a hudson player could never relate

[brave cloud]

It is incredibly difficult for Wukong to pop crowns and have that “clutch factor” moment in a 1v3 situation now. Significantly harder than other characters. Simply because dunks do not kill (usually) with solo Wukong now

[faint kettle]

anyways my stance on this thread is i think they should look at readjusting other dunks so they also dont oneshot first, that way no one can oneshot dunk instead of only KP not being able to. then if it isnt good, revert the dunk change completely.

[celest dirge]

I just can't disagree with KP players saying that losing the dunk is losing the whole reason they liked the character.

and that's happened to several characters already so

[faint kettle]

and they nerfed podracing too

[celest dirge]

I'm generally against those types of nerfs.

they just keep stacking till everything is homogenized

[faint kettle]

i mean this doesnt mean its fair tho

perma podracing and then oneshotting someone w wukong dunk was so fun to me

[celest dirge]

fair is relative and less important.

[faint kettle]

doesnt mean it should be in the game

[young anchor]

This is different than going "kp bad" or smth along those lines. Which felt like u were saying

[brave cloud]

They took away the Big Stick.....

[faint kettle]

doesnt mean my idea of fun is more valuable than others

[brave cloud]

I liked having a big stick... 🙁

Now my stick is so tiny....

[faint kettle]

FORREAL

[brave cloud]

people point and laugh at my stick now...

[faint kettle]

yea cuz its not threatening brah

[celest dirge]

Respectfully, this is a trap that a lot of games fall into. All fun in a PVP game is somewhat based on making other people not have fun. You can eventually fine tune a game down to a point where almost nothing is statistically unfair, but you lose the fun of the game in the process. Gets to a point where like a 1% increase on something is "game breaking" bc everything is so tightly monitored that there's no real individual agency anymore.

[young anchor]

Also this is kind of true. Hudson's rmb healing was one of the main reasons a lot of people liked him before, but was it healthy for the game? No, not even close.

[celest dirge]

any game with wide variance in character kits is always going to be full of unfair situations.

the whole point of a sandbox environment is to allow them while mitigating their impact.

[faint kettle]

i mean u can say this and not ignore the topic right

is it fun to get grabbed off screen by a KP then stunned and lose most of ur health if not die while ur team cant rly help?

no one finds that fun

but its not rly broken or anything. no ones saying remove that aspect.

there is a keyword u said which is fine tune it

so getting dragged and oneshot not fun, getting dragged and dying after stun not fun either. but fine tune it to find where its ok for both and doesnt feel cheesy

kp hook into dunk feels so cheesy compared to every other dunk other than wukong imo lol

[celest dirge]

I don't think cheesey is all that bad.

I mean Beebo is functionally entirely cheese

plenty of people like that sort of thing.

[celest dirge]

I honestly disagree with this. Dunk is just another way to die from KP hook. Regardless of the situation, if you get hooked, you should be dead. That's just how hook works. If you survive it's a miracle.

I see that as much less frustrating than hyper mobile characters spam dashing around the abyss looking for a dunk

at least KP has to commit and telegraph what he's doing. He also can't just repeat it over and over like every melee character

[faint kettle]

i mean u are saying hooked = dead for an ability with low commitment. i dont really agree w that lol. same thing with wukongs rmb being rly strong low commitment. i dont think they should reward as much as they do.

at least in the current cast of characters. majority dont have some busted TOD shit from safety while having a solid kit outside of that.

[celest dirge]

if anything KP should just be less mobile, like just increase the dash cd a bit.

but hooks are always very strong

they always create an imbalanced situation where it's low commitment high reward.

but it's also like, half his kit or more

and on a long cd

[frosty elbow]

Kura I allready went though this with you bro

If only the others would read what I said :p

[celest dirge]

ultimately, the "Hook into stun/burst" character is going to have very one sided interactions. If you start taking away the strengths in favor of rounding him out, then you lose the point of the character.

I think it's much better to keep him UNrounded, to preserve identity/strengths.

also just, the fun and reason why people play a character.

[faint kettle]

yup lolol

i dont mind hook into burst. i just dont like insane op kiting with that then being upset u cant oneshot on top of that lol. to me it just sounds like a wukong player saying why cant i have faster cds and a true oneshot after my stun on land and better hp regen etc.

i think what makes kp strong rn isnt really his true identity. hes more of a controller/bruiser w his hook but u can just play him like big shiv

[celest dirge]

I agree with all that.

[rough girder]

What makes him strong is grab. Because one grab and you are dead, assuming he have a team behind. There's a rock girl that can put a wall after a grab, or Hudson putting wired and melting you while you traveling on grab etc etc.
Plus grabbing an ally from a bad position and saving them.

Problem that if KP alone, he is such a bully target. Literally can be killed by solo rabbit without effort or losing much hp.

[faint kettle]

nope his dash makes him strong

2 dashes can abuse songbow so insanely well. getting dash reset on lvl 4 dash and on songbow proc too.

even without songbow its good bc of lvl 4

works with good relics like sunweaver or vive too

his grab and stun are just good parts of his kit

[cursive slate]

Have you tried Feytech Claw + Thunderbolt over Burning palm / Sunweaver? I find I'm still dunking from full most of the time (with a fully charged staff) The extra 18% ability power helps with that small amount of damage you need to hit the 70% hp threshold

[brave cloud]

Not yet, I'm aware of the build and I think it could be a contender for new top build

[cursive slate]

also, do you not think they shadow buffed the regular top charge of the staff to be the previous jump pad / abyss stick width?

this is what a regular max charge looked like pre patch

this is new, I also immediately felt like I was doing more damage post patch with max charge staff (as if every stick was an abyss charge stick)

[brave cloud]

Yeah I do think that happened

[cursive slate]

sorry to the kingpin enjoyers that the monkeys are taking over this discussion

I got the devs aware of the podracing bug so hopefully they fix that soon cause it's pretty depressing right now having to suicide to reset the speed

[young anchor]

Did they really have to give him compensation 😭

[cursive slate]

hahaha I was surprised too

[young anchor]

He's still ruining games so that just doesn't make sense

[fallow forum]

https://www.twitch.tv/spy_sv/clip/MoralInexpensiveBaboonHumbleLife-Qc0GwecpBtJN3E3M

[fallow forum]

Glad you get to enjoy the game on your character

[cursive slate]

^_^

[young anchor]

I like how the stick didn't even hit you. The hitbox is just bigger than the stick for some random reason

[plain token]

Pretty sure the stick did hit, just looks funky because Z axis shenanigans

Probs also only killed because he was lower in the z axis

[young anchor]

Nah when it slams down it's legit a good meter off him.

[trim hinge]

I see it exactly the same way. In the past, I could play in a way where you could achieve something with direct dunks. Now it's just as you described. All in, I kill someone and then I have to get out again immediately. Or I pull someone out and land a stun. But I'm completely dependent on the team...

For me, Squid/Vive Infusor has become unplayable, because when I do good hooks over the abyss or similar, the opponent simply survives after the dunk. Besides, I can't do enough damage before the dunk to then dunk afterwards.

They've simply curtailed the creativity that was previously possible to outmanoeuvre opponents with skill and make smart plays...

For me, the Insta Dunk, with all its advantages and disadvantages, belongs in the game. Then more land needs to be brought into play or something similar. The endgame fights are very often over a lot of land where you are at a disadvantage anyway, so the changes are a great pity...

Yeah maybe give Wukong a health triggered Dunk by Ability Discription or something like that or give back to all... I Defenetly want to die to instand Dunks instead of loosing them completly...........

[median minnow]

I know people like one-shot dunks a lot, and I understand how that could be tons of fun,
But i think the ratio amount of abyss right now makes it super frustrating for players to deal with. And if the ratio was less like in previous map people would be totally fine with 1-shot dunks because you can think/play around them rather than a lengthy unavoidable trip no matter where you go

It may be a slightly unfair statement, but it feels akin to its okay for healers to be able to restore someone to full health with one cast because we have antiheal, so you can outplay them! (To be clear on this part I play support and I still think people would be happier if the support characters could heal a smaller more reasonable amount but not necessarily need 100% antiheal -- or antiheal at all)

[raven storm]

Shoal. I appoint you as the representative of the people. You speak for the mass when you say people would love the old map. Amen.

[median minnow]

i truly think it would solve the issue people have with insta dunks.
Cuz on the old map, you could consider wasting your dash to get over smaller hops quickly to avoid surprise dunks --- but then you had no escape/engage if a fight starts suddenly -- which felt like a totally ok tradeoff. And if you got dunked you could also feel like "oh, okay, yeah i should have played it more safe there"; and the larger gaps were the fastest way between the larger objectives, so you had to make calls on if you wanna waste time or play safe and go slow / fall behind

But it wasn;t like a 1-3 minute trip back to another piece of land where you just have to hope you dont get dunked the whole way

[craggy hornet]

We are freaking changing core mechanics of the game because nobody asked for that much abyss on the map

I can't not tilt seeing those 180° decisions that keep slowly degrading core satisfying mechanics of the game because previous decisions were poorly taken...

That is not all there it is but it is participating to it

At some point a game is good because IT IS good, supervive found a good niche gameplay loop but if half the loop is broken, half the loop is broken.

[young anchor]

I hate the reason for the dunk changes but dunks were never good imo. The counter was not interacting with them or getting lucky enough to have specific powers, which not interacting with smth isn't really a counter and being kind of helpless over abyss vs dunkers felt pretty damn bad. The reason for the change was kinda weird, but a change like it imo was always needed.

Only if it was actually good and actually meant every dunker had to do full dmg for one shots... tetra, wu, and even jin have one shot me without items as hudson a tanker character. And kp literally never can one shot.

[plain token]

I'd be okay with dunks being instakills if the hunters that have them didn't already deal a shit ton of damage and/or had more mobility

[young anchor]

I'd probably be more fine with them in that case but insta kills feel bad all together honestly no matter what.

[faint kettle]

its only bad when the ttk is longer. if u are getting oneshot by a cooldown over a specific part of the map it isnt that bad when u are also able to pump dmg. i just think of some of the ranged champs like carbine or something who has to shoot what seems like too many bullets to even have impact then gets oneshot lol

[young anchor]

Idk tetra, wu, and jin dunk all are bs even if you do more dmg honestly. Tetra's seems like it'd be fine but it's almost insta when she's on you.

[faint kettle]

why’s it bs if u do more dmg?

[young anchor]

You're still basically denied a significant portion of the map.

[faint kettle]

not rly cuz u can shoot from range and actually do dmg to nerds that just perma play in abyss. or 1 dash to avoid it and u outdps them.

feels like u can nvr outdps ppl that do one shots even outside their one shots and that’s a problem to me for balance. there’s only a few reasons that should ever be a thing like if the champs whole thing is only specifically oneshotting and they can’t do shit elsewhere lol

[fallow forum]

Yeah, I think this holds true when the end circle pulls are abyss (which are A LOT this patch, partially bc of bullet trains)

[feral ice]

Kingpin is the only dunker who can't dunk

I stg It happens every game

[young anchor]

I feel like even with dmg brall and jin will still likely be insta on top of you anyways.

[faint kettle]

yea but thats their thing they lack range but have dunk and mobility. u have range and dmg.

[young anchor]

Idk guys, I think kp dunk might need to do more damage. I legit just watched a kp on my team go for a dunk on someone that's easily around 75% and it not dunk. It's funny but that's just bs lol

[faint kettle]

yea agreed. also i think kp shotgun should oneshot someone makes no sense they survive a giant monsters shotty to the head

[fallow forum]

Thoughts on this suggestion?

Q - The abyssal power in Kinpin's right arm allows him to slam enemies into the abyss harder than normal (make it dunk like it used to, 1.2 sec stun and downward momentum, true dunk)

However:
Hook applies a passive called Abyssal resistance upon grounding the target that lasts for 1 second.

Abyssal Resistance - Targets grabbed by Kingpin gain resistance to his arm's abyssal power as they are pulled toward him. Targets affected by Abyssal Resistance are not as affected by the abyssal power in Kingpin's arm and Kingpin's slam is less effective on them over the abyss for the duration (make dunk work like it does in the current system, no one shot and requiring low hp [quite low for KP dunk, currently]).

Why I propose this suggestion

KP's signature dunk is the reason we love this guy. Like cmon, it's the most dunk looking dunk out of all of them. There's a reason it's called dunking! (as shown in the images). I've seen more Voids "dunk" with RMB than KP slam this patch.

A frustration that has been pointed out in this thread, is the ability of KP to 3rd party a fight by hooking someone and one shotting them by slamming them into the abyss. This removes Kingpin's ability to do this unless the target is already low HP (KP slam executes from way lower threshold than other slams, and I think it's fine to leave it that way for purposes of the hook > slam).
This allows KP to have his signature dunk back while removing the frustration of being hooked and one shot while you weren't paying attention.

This allows KP to have some sort of threat again without making it super long range (like hook > slam). It is sad when everyone just runs at you because they know you can't do anything.

Additionally, this allows KP to get his dunk back without changing his base damage. Why is this important? Because it ensures that KP does not become stronger on land as a consequence of base damage changes on his dunk.

Also, nerf Grabby the Squid and people will be way less frustrated....that thing is still broken. Like cmon man, I don't even run Grabby and I'm getting nerfs for it. Nerf the item, not the character. We don't want another Joule incident. (Apply Abyssal Resistance upon hitting a target with Grabby?)

Off topic:

@fierce vortex is there any way we can make Kingpin able to cancel his R by gliding? I want to be able to cancel my own ult.

Crysta and Mercury can do it, so I don't see why not. It would be a very nice quality of life change.

[craggy hornet]

That change would be better but tbh I just want true dunk on him. Grabbing someone to not be able to dunk seems like the dumbest interaction.

After a bit of thinking it could be fine because when you hook you are gonna meet 2 scenarios:
-you have teammates that shoot the enemy while they get pulled thus the dunk procs the 70% HP threshold.
-you have no teammates and KP can't one hit the grabbed target out of nowhere

In the end KP still gets nerfed despite grapple being the issue people complained about but he can still dunk in some scenarios

[idle dirge]

My first thought would be that that is a lot of text to put in a description.

Functionally it sounds fine to me, only issue is that it just seems like it would feel a little unintuitive/confusing to have an ability that explicitly makes your other ability worse sometimes.

[fallow forum]

bro they aren't gonna give him hook slam combo back

[fallow forum]

We can put a reason for it in the lore

[young anchor]

I meant your can't really deny it was kinda op. Insta kills for basically free(less free after 1.0). Even if you can react if you can see it, it's out of vision half the time so that doesn't matter much.

[fallow forum]

Okay sure lol

[young anchor]

I do like this. Kp's dunk was once of the most fun out of all the dunks to me and it's the most fair dunk by far.

If they adjusted wu/tetra to not almost always one shot dunk that would also be awesome. I do like this.

[feral ice]

I don't think it's a good idea to obfuscate game mechanics. Why should one dunk always kill but then other hunters. Jin/Brall/Wukong/Tetra be subject to differential treatment.

I just want the dunk changes reverted fully.

JUST FIX THE MAP!!!!!!!

[young anchor]

Cus half the dunks aren't fair, idk how many times you need to hear this to understand that. Being forced to just avoid a good chunk of the map is never nice even smaller map.

Oh boy how fun it was being literally forced to stare at a jin over the abyss in a wind ring cus we had no hunters that had anyway to deal with him and didn't get lucky powers.

And with eplats you were then firced to pay a good chunk of money to do anything, so it just made the pain in another area that was always having to have eplats instead of dunking itself.
And jin players will complain but I've seen a good amount of jins get solo dunks so idk 🤷‍♂️

[feral ice]

Nowhere did I claim they were fair or not. All I said was that game mechanics should be consistent

And with the map being so large you are still forced to pay the EPlat tax regardless of if there are dunkers or not

Otherwise there is no land to play

[young anchor]

Eplats are just less important until late game now. But versus half the sunkers it still feels aids tbh.

[young anchor]

Well it's the difference between how they're dunks are.

But that is fair.

[inner galleon]

i only came back recently and have never played KP, but do you think the hook slam combo was more op than slam being able to dunk at 100%?

feel like whenever i play against KP, i always expect to die if i got hooked and he traded 3 abilities to grab me and shift over to the abyss
seems fair since the hook is fairly slow and easily reactable

[young anchor]

Well one you have to put yourself at risk, the other can be done from a safe distance. That's the difference.

[inner galleon]

maybe it’s the grabbie dunks that feel more bs? I’m all for a clutch factor but I think dunking being viable at 100% feels kinda rough

I have always thought of KP as the hook character, not a dunk beast, feel like he should be rewarded for landing hooks

[young anchor]

He was played as just perma dunk by most people. Even with hook it was just yook into dunk mostly before.

[inner galleon]

would it be op to give him his hook combo back, and make hook debuff for a guaranteed dunk

[young anchor]

The combo is one of the main reasons he was always at least A. Along with many reasons

[inner galleon]

right, I have no problem with him being good, just would like for him to not feel bad for all parties

i do agree that KP lost a lot of his clutch factor and think there’s room to restore something without making it unfun for enemies

[faint kettle]

i mean how many champs have clutch factor?

how many of those are considered OP by a majority of the playerbase?

brall/wukong come to mind

thats why i mentioned ttk earlier. if some champs just did more dmg to make up for not having oneshots, then clutch factor is a thing for everyone. u can fly around as carbine and potentially get a pick just from high dmg and kiting instead of having a oneshot dunk. they have to find a fine line between having dunks and having a fast ttk. if its a long ttk having oneshots is pretty busted.

especially when that oneshot has no wait required. void used to have a "oneshot" where he stuns u, then ults, then spams lmb while u are stunned, and then blows up his Q. whole kit required, about 3-4 seconds of waiting for the person to die, while being in the area still, and any stuns can break your combo. having a oneshot that is instant, in a low ttk meta, is prob a little busted. looking at other dunkers too rn cuz they are dunking from 100% hp which is stupid and makes no sense why when they tried to patch dunking lmao.

[young anchor]

I put some thought into this and it's legit almost exactly 50%. Some are up to opinions but i would say rn it's exactly half the cast lol.

[faint kettle]

who wtf

[young anchor]

Brall, carbine, crysta, ghost, joule, myth, shiv, wukong, zeph, beebo, bishop, oath, felix, elluna and tetra.

It's more than half by a little bit.

[fallow forum]

Sure but others do not feel that way and it seems it will not come back, so I am thinking of solutions to make everyone mostly happy

And 3rd partying with it is kinda bs so I feel them on that

[faint kettle]

i wouldnt put some of those there lol

if they win its cuz ppl messed up bad. like felix/elluna/bishop/zeph/myth/carbine shouldnt be there.

imo its brall/jin/old kp/wukong/shiv/beebo/oath and crysta cuz relics are cringe.

[young anchor]

Not really. Have you seen what zeph bishop can do? Myth it entirely depends on which hunters the enemy has. Elluna has enough mobility to clutch. Felix cdr abuses like insane.

[faint kettle]

i mean are u talking about winning a 1v1 or oneshotting ppl lol.

like if a zeph or bishop is 1v3ing the enemies just played wrong. u land a stun and they die, u have 3 champs. or play ranged etc. zeph is just harder to kill but it isnt like hes gonna one tap u if u play above average.

[young anchor]

Zeph has enough healing with his lmb dmg. And he doesn't need to land a 3 man nade dudez just 1 person then he kills them.
Bishop also does enough dmg with her lmb.

[faint kettle]

yea thats misplay if u are dying in a 3v1

he doesnt have a oneshot to have that insta clutch factor

the clutch factor is when u are most likely gonna die then just explode someone. a dunk is easiest clutch because of that

[young anchor]

You can use this as a reason why no character can clutch cus you could've just not died.

Zeph just does enough dmg with both lmb and passivez in a "clutch" tho it's mainly his lmbs doing a good chunk.

[faint kettle]

dude lol

u are misplaying if u die as a 3v1 to him

because he still has to hit u multiple times while not dying

thats just playing better against misplays

flying at someone and oneshotting them or no one wanting to come near u cuz u can oneshot them is a lot diff than being a better player on a stronger hunter

every champ in this game has clutch possibilities, but that and a dunk clutch is not the same. kp can also clutch still just by stun on land, half or more of ur hp is gone, hook to cancel ur ability, dash lmb win etc. that is not close to a dunk.

[young anchor]

Yea bro... so does like every character. Most of the characters you even put there have to hit you many times.
Like that just doesn't make much sense.

And on zeph it really is not that hard to hit shots and just perma kite.

[fallow forum]

I'm with you on this, but it just isn't going to happen if we're being real. So, I'm just searching for a middle ground solution

[young anchor]

Anyways let's just agree to disagree 👍 i don't feel like continuing it

[faint kettle]

crysta and oath can basically oneshot u with ult while having no cds to actually play around. maybe not shiv anymore havent played her this patch. rest are dunk champs that literally oneshot u.

u cannot be oneshot by a zeph they have to proc passive in the first place and even then an ult wont oneshot. so clutch factor needs to be better defined, a dunk is way different than a character that is strong that can play well against ppl missing their cds on 1 person.

but ye we can disagree !

[tired matrix]

im just gonna omega agree on please let kingpin cancel R with gliding

the dunk changes on KP i still dont realistically have a good solution in mind

but making hook slam not 1 shot does feel really awkward

it requires hitting a slow predictable and high commital spell (which may also require very precise positioning and dashing to set up) and theres a non-zero chance to miss the dunk

[fallow forum]

The only problem I could potentially see it causing is with slam > LMB > R > cancel with glide after first shot > LMB, making a new combo, but if they just make the R shot count towards the LMB reset/spread timer it shouldn't matter

[tired matrix]

tbh can we just condense KP ult into 1 slugwave instead of 2 i swear it will be better

[trim hinge]

hi, is the patch allready live??? could't get KP not hover in Test Range

[hexed frigate]

no

[sleek turtle]

https://medal.tv/games/supervive/clips/l7OYmVHXq4OB04Zi-?invite=cr-MSxaU1IsMzgwMTc2NTg&v=23

https://medal.tv/games/supervive/clips/l7OO1qfYI9VL5x_Iv?invite=cr-MSxDdk8sMzgwMTc2NTg&v=28

https://medal.tv/games/supervive/clips/l6ApFMfObeS918trM?invite=cr-MSxKMngsMzgwMTc2NTg&v=57

all these clips people r just playing like i dont exist

cause i have 0 kill preassure

https://medal.tv/games/supervive/clips/l6AHH1pVU_LENojIP?invite=cr-MSxvOFEsMzgwMTc2NTg&v=90

this one shrike commits dash to fight me with no glider fule and ends up dying for it but only cause i keep pushing her around and force her to throw

for reference this is every game i have played since the 11th scrolled all the way down with one barely outta frame game on bishop in arena and i managed to get all these clips

[humble swift]

I'm gonna be honest in the first 3 clips you just don't play the hunter correctly

you play it like it used to be played, basically perma looking for something in abyss but that's just not what he is anymore

you're supposed to be more frontline/utility instead of looking for slam over abyss only or hook --> slam abyss

This is not really a matter of "people playing like you don't exist"

it's just you not really existing because you're constantly playing basically behind your team. KP's whole playstyle now is basically exactly what blitzcrank is in league, you play frontline and bait for hooks

[craggy hornet]

I think the point is that that is how he wants to play KP

Which I understand

[humble swift]

Yes but that's what I mean KP wasn't ever really meant to be played like an assassin, he was meant to be a frontline/bruiser hunter

[graceful arch]

in a game where every char has to 1v3 at times this just isnt healthy for kp

[craggy hornet]

That shouldn't make his dunk useless above abyss

[humble swift]

yes it should

you shouldn't be able to hit 1 hook on 100% hp hunter to insta kill

you're supposed to play him more on ground than in abyss

[graceful arch]

"you're supposed to play him" kind of stunts any creative mindset when exploring characters

[humble swift]

They've tried for a while to make him more of a frontliner, even in beta, the problem was that he just had too much damage and solo-playability that there was basically 0 reason to actually play him like a frontliner instead of a literal assassin/oneshot combo hunter

[humble swift]

it's called roles

which should've always been a part of this game

[graceful arch]

yeah this game really doesnt have that many roles lmao

[humble swift]

that's my point

they should strive more towards specific roles like they kind of have recently

with them bumping up healing items, making clearer lines towards who they want to actually be tanky/frontline and who should do damage

[graceful arch]

this type of mindset doesn't really work with trios though, theres not enough flexibility in comps to really establish roles correctly

[humble swift]

I agree to some degree but I still think roles can definitely work.

[graceful arch]

then they have to get rid of the 1v3 aspects

like dash resets

[humble swift]

which they should

those have been a toxic part of this game for way too long

[graceful arch]

i agree with that

[smoky blaze]

I looked at those clips and thought "not even jin would dunk enough to kill", here's the thing, jin has to build damage to even be usable, this guy is building, sustain, mobility, range, cooldown reduction, anything but damage and expects to dunk full hp????? Not to be the guy to always turn the attention to my problems but like, this should be how dunks work

[humble swift]

dash resets + heal on knock was one of those just terrible "solo q" changes they made

[graceful arch]

i think trios is just so hard to balance

since in soloq you need to 1v9

[humble swift]

I think a lot of people just have nostalgia as to how KP used to be played back in Beta

[graceful arch]

but 3 stacks are the only real time when u get to put team comps into full action

[humble swift]

Although he was a lot more dopamine inducing I don't think KP was healthy at all.

[humble swift]

I agree with this aswell although I understand their decision not to remove solo q when they're trying to first build a playerbase

fully unrestricted ranked won't work without a bigger playerbase, but that's not what this thread is really about

[sleek turtle]

... ill say nothing else

also ur talking abt "proper" play in solo queue where i play basically every fight 1v3 cause my teamamtes are not real

so yea im playing selfishly its not scrims

[sleek turtle]

as he hovers over abyss now :)

[humble swift]

I'm ngl boasting about RP doesn't really mean much bucko

but eitherway yes KP isn't the solo q demon he used to be because guess what

that was unhealthy !

[sleek turtle]

i mean i could pull up top 3 scrims and tourny placements but i dont need to prove all that

[humble swift]

going basically full sustain and playing perma over abyss until you get one grab or slam over abyss is surely good for the game

kappa chungus

[sleek turtle]

point being dunks feel like shit

KP was pruely balanced around being fat and dunking

and now he is fat and pushes people down

[sleek turtle]

slow hook

obviously telegraphed

short range dunk

long dash CD

[humble swift]

he has a 4s cd on his ground dash btw

that he also replenished some of when going dash 4

[sleek turtle]

ground dash is the shortest dash in game

mayb its more than beebo dash

but his car used to have less CD than KP air dash

[humble swift]

when did car ever have less than 10s CD 😭

[sleek turtle]

12

protofo had a build

[humble swift]

10

you can literally look at notes

it's 10

[sleek turtle]

well

either way

2 seconds longer cd

on an ult

thats cross map and gives sheild :)

[humble swift]

yeah no shit I can also have lower ult cd on any hunter if I build the item that reduces ult cd

[sleek turtle]

well ig u dont wanna have a convo

no need to be rude

[humble swift]

I'm not being rude it's just that your argument that beebo ult has less cd doesn't really hold much merit

[sleek turtle]

:)

[humble swift]

Also tone down the ego, you're talking about being rude but I'm not the one that first responded with a screenshot of my RP

and said "... ill say nothing else"

[sleek turtle]

i didnt really ask for any critisim tbf i was told to post those clips by other people

and u come in saying ur just playing wrong

[humble swift]

yes you did so in a public manner and I just posted my opinion on why those clips don't really mean "KP is weak" or that KP slamming is weak

[sleek turtle]

nothing abt the content of the clips

[humble swift]

and yes I stated the way you're playing it is literally how he used to be played in OB

which is not how he is clearly intended to be played now

[sleek turtle]

ahh yes

i will stand there

and get shot

and throw my slow hook

[humble swift]

as I said the whole point of the hunter is to act basically exactly like blitzcrank

[feral ice]

Do you know who you're talking to.?

[humble swift]

be annoying and look for picks

[sleek turtle]

no nidhogg him self has said it

im a no name

[humble swift]

can you be more cringe ?

[sleek turtle]

thats just not true

[humble swift]

I am also in top 3 teams EU so what ?

[sleek turtle]

blitz crank has a fast hook folled by knock up sielnce and his a support

[humble swift]

I don't go flaunting it

[sleek turtle]

KP is an engage tank

[humble swift]

like it's some crazy achievement

[feral ice]

You engaged with him immediately saying he doesn't know what he is talking about it's not about flaunting it's about disregarding someone for nothing.

🥱

[humble swift]

I didn't say he didn't know what he's talking about why are you putting words in my mouth ?

[humble swift]

I literally just stated that's not how the character is supposed to be played which is why it may seem weak

[sleek turtle]

def reads like "u dont kno what ur doing"

[shrewd tapir]

Bruisers are supposed to deal damage so you cant just ignore them or walk at them burning your cds

[sleek turtle]

mayb even

leave a bruise :O

[humble swift]

If you want to interpret it like that I guess ? You're just making it more agressive than it actually is

[sleek turtle]

when some random person @s me saying ur playing wrong/bad it def reads like that

[humble swift]

That's why I specifically said "FRONTLINE/bruiser"

[sleek turtle]

@humble swift your playing kP wrong

[humble swift]

respectfully you're a random to me too

[humble swift]

yes and I'm open to criticism

[feral ice]

Doesn't seem like it

[sleek turtle]

u gave no critisim

no heres how to play better

just ur wrong

KP is blitz crank

(hes not)

[humble swift]

I literally told you my criticism and how I think he should be played ?

this IS criticism

if you want to take it or not that's your choice

[sleek turtle]

how is KP a front line

im curious why u think that

[humble swift]

how is he not a frontline when his main build is sustain+tankiness and his hook is insanely easier to hit when closer to the enemy

that's what I meant by that's his playstyle

you stay close and bait people close into hook -> dash back

[sleek turtle]

are u just walking at people?

[humble swift]

and you dash back into your team

boom

[sleek turtle]

and they arent walking back or shooting u

[shrewd tapir]

Frontline when oath exists is pretty fake

[sleek turtle]

how r u getting close with no dashes

also true oath sheild just block

[shrewd tapir]

No real reason to pick a champ to be frontline thats just a hp bar

[humble swift]

with 5k hp and vive infusor you can literally walk at people yes

[shrewd tapir]

Oath is just better if you want a frontliner

In everyway

[humble swift]

there's barely any oath in solo q

and if you see a team that has oath

[sleek turtle]

IDK mayb htis is an EU vs NA problem

[humble swift]

you just play smarter or let your team destroy oath shield first

[sleek turtle]

cause true on EU i did just farm primsa by walking at people on 200 ping

[feral ice]

Maybe if you posted clips it would make more sense. Have any to share ? Mocha shared some :)

[sleek turtle]

no thats to logical

i wanan argue over fake situations

[feral ice]

I mean clear examples a top EU player must have some clips. Surely

[shrewd tapir]

And thats already more pressure than kp has done

[humble swift]

I don't play much solo q anymore would scrim clips suffice ?

[shrewd tapir]

They just walked at him

[sleek turtle]

ooo so we r argugin over my playstyle

IN SOLO QUEUE

while we never play solo queue

[humble swift]

in general I already agreed that KP in solo q ranked today is just nowhere near as good as he used to be

[sleek turtle]

GENIUS

[humble swift]

I played solo q

until I hit legend

then stopped

[sleek turtle]

ur taking htese clips like its how i play scrims

[humble swift]

I already told you like 3 times

[sleek turtle]

im outta here lmao this is such a waste of time holy

[humble swift]

I told you KP is generally way weaker in solo q then he used to be complaining about his dunks makes no sense.

bringing the oneshot slams back would literally just make it even more cancer especially with todays map.

I can't wait to see a 5k HP KP walking around healing a stupid amount per dash (VI) and just generally running until inevitably I make a mistake and get dunked 100-0

[sleek turtle]

just seems like a vive infuser problem

[humble swift]

no the problem is a character that can tank THAT much and still have a good amount of mobility shouldn't have such an easily accessible 100-0 ability

[surreal sparrow]

TBH I have been enjoying a base of:

• Black Rose
• Trigger Finger
• Rabbit Paw
• Dash CDR boots

Very fun and rewarding

[graceful veldt]

interesting to read about other hunters, i'm just gonna come here and say

i had a match and a KP landed 3 Q's in a row to me in the abyss and he couldn't kill me because i was close to the walls, i even felt frustrated in his behalf because it was just absurd, i ended up solo him there

[young anchor]

First dunk, logical he was 100% and had gorger shield. 2nd dunk on brall, bs that not dunking is just silly.

Regardless, LilMeap saying you're playing how kp used to play is almost for sure correct in some of those clips. You're not doing g anything different, and if not for the yi changes and dunk changes I'd think I was still watching ob kp with that playstyle. You were definitely playing how kp used to play.
And you didn't play with hook low in the abyss so it'd still kill.

Also feels like you're complaining about not 100-0ing feom a dunk, the thing it was literally meant to prevent which it did.

One last thing, kp is not a frontliner bro. Even with these changes he is atull a pick hunter, he will never be cus that is literally what his hook is for. Idk why you'd play him like a frontliner really ever.

[craggy hornet]

I agree with Meap but it only really works in a competitive setting where acting as a frontline/enabler is rewarded with good teammates (which is how the game should be played in first place)

SoloQ is just suffer because the abyss playstyle was so much better but is not an option anymore

In those clips, there is absolutely zero reason to aim for a hook into dash into abyss when you know dunk is not gonna kill, you just wasted your entire kit.

Clips would have more value if they showed realistic scenarios where people didn't die when it felt like they should have. Half the clips KP doesn't kill and such was the intent of the patch.

[slim forum]

level up your hook alredy bro 😭

• why u dont throw 1 lmb before Q

you can do that and you dunk easier

[slim forum]

no one plays ranked bro

obv u are legend

everyone is legend

i dont think kp should insta dunk

but should be more punishing to get hooked

i mean if kp has a team u die but you get what im saying

[humble swift]

KP is basically the same as oath when it comes to solo Q nowadays

because you don't have a team most of the time they're just not a viable option, that doesn't mean that either of them are necessarily weak

or that either of them need buffs

[slim forum]

kp stopped beign fun when they removed full damage kp

https://tenor.com/view/absolute-cinema-raccoon-absolute-cinema-gif-17862327649353748812

in the other hand full damage oath still exists

but not full damage kp

[young anchor]

Would be nice if it gave a dmg buff for the kp. Main issue i see with insta dunking after hook is that half the time it isn't even on your screen when you get hooked, so it just feels like bs sometimes.

[slim forum]

why tc why

😭

[young anchor]

Wait it does?

[slim forum]

rampager soss burning palm

[humble swift]

if you say full dmg oath exists then so does KP

they can build the same items

[slim forum]

kp cant run rampager

lmao

[young anchor]

He has like 2k more hp now bro 😭

[humble swift]

ok don't run rampager

run BFG instead

[surreal sparrow]

KP Rampager is actually really fun

[humble swift]

what is this argument lol

[slim forum]

thats hybrid

not full damage

not even close to full damage

[humble swift]

doesn't BFG literally give like the most damage out of any relic ?

[slim forum]

its blackrose i thinl

but yeah

[humble swift]

blackrose gives only primary

bfg gives flat % dmg

[slim forum]

i mean bro theres only 2 relics that do that

[surreal sparrow]

Blackrose + Rampager has been what I have been really enjoying

[slim forum]

rampager and soss

[humble swift]

in general saying KP can't go full damage but oath can is stupid

they can run basically the same shit without much difference

[slim forum]

cause oath can run rampager

instead of 12% more damage he has 22%

• omnivamp

[humble swift]

why would he have 22% on rampager

[slim forum]

22% = 12% + 10%

12% from sword

10% from rampager

[humble swift]

ok and why can't KP go rampager again ?

what stops him from doing that exactly ?

[slim forum]

cause takes 1 year to stack

oath can stack it in 0,1 seconds

with shield

well 0,1 is non human, 0,7

[humble swift]

idk eitherway KP can still go basically the same shit and do similar dmg

[young anchor]

Just gonna ask, wdym bfg? I can't figure out which relic you mean lol

[slim forum]

soss

bfg is old name

[young anchor]

I don't remember any item named that in the past ._.

[humble swift]

SOSS was supposed to be named BFG afaik

but they changed to SOSS but BFG remained in my brain

easier to say than SOSS

[slim forum]

u can say

SSS

[humble swift]

what I meant by frontliner btw is that you can soak a lot of damage and heal it back up with VI considering it heals based off of %, aswell as you generally want to be a bit closer to enemies when hooking so they don't expect it then dash back into your team

that's why I don't really understand when people complain about his "telegraphed RMB", you can literally be almost inside of someone and still double dash back half a kilometer

[slim forum]

i miss the old kingpin...

[surreal sparrow]

Which one, the one where he was an assasin that was also a tank?

Or machine gun?

[slim forum]

double cd blade kp

[surreal sparrow]

Ahh, the meta slave KP

Gotcha :P

[slim forum]

well meta was vive infusor power user

[humble swift]

I honestly think KP was somewhat balanced before in OB because if you went double blade to do a lot of damage at least you didn't actually have a shit ton of HP

[shrewd tapir]

If kp dunks you when hes on your screen without hitting a hook that shit is as deserved as it gets

[young anchor]

Just, being able to sit in the back perma looking for a way to get a 100-0 is just unhealthy honestly.

I've been playing kp a good amount now and ngl he feels fine. Even without the guaranteed dunks.

I do think kp has the fairest dunk outside of his hook. Hos hook is what makes it bs imo.

[wanton mango]

void moment

(dropping in, void snap + 3 man ult is my favorite)

[young anchor]

Void is just cheese at this point, it's his whole thing. Feels toxic but the difference is he's at least vulnerable when going for it

[hazy abyss]

I think kp would be fixed if you could choose before game if you want to be tanky or damage like with old helm and blade system

You go damage kp you can insta dunk you go tank kp you can’t

I think current kp is balanced but not fun

[vague wren]

Balanced but not fun is the end result of designing characters within the constraints of supervive's combat language

[young anchor]

The "fun" stuff tends to be toxic in most cases and it does really fucking suck.

[gentle grove]

Pretty sure mocha was the first legend player in the game when everyone was still playing / it was admit copetwive

Pretty competetive*

[slim forum]

it was guess who

hight

or w/e his name is

[gentle grove]

Was it hight?

[slim forum]

then the other guy

the guy that abused wukong with jump pad

[gentle grove]

I think mocha and bush was like 2nd or 3rd then

[slim forum]

geb?

[gentle grove]

I forgot but i didn’t think it was hight

[slim forum]

either way u can bot farm easily

just change server

or play late

[gentle grove]

Mocha played during main timer so

And ik ranked doesn’t mean much but I wouldn’t not say that mocha is one of the best kps in the game

[slim forum]

well every kp in eu doesnt play kp anymore

lmao

exept meckimeck

which is the best kp world

by far

mecki glaze

[humble swift]

Imo this game doesn't have complex enough characters to where anybody really even needs to care about "best of X"

they're all fairly simple

[hazy abyss]

There are very few exceptions but overall true

[surreal sparrow]

Possibly, but there are def exceptions, like, Lemur is the best Celeste in the game, no question

[vague wren]

But that is less to do with his mastery of Celeste and more to do with his mastery of movement, aiming, and understanding of interactions

[young anchor]

Understanding interactions is way more important than probably anything else. Just normal sandbox stuff

[cunning folio]

i was first to legend in trios patch!!

[slim forum]

dw boys a found a build to insta dunk

imma post in a minute

well i found 2

but 1 of them is unreliable xd

nvm

supervive stats not working for the 20000000000000000000000000000000th time

https://supervive-stats.com/builds/details/m2qg02w2gwhbckk

[odd jungle]

same with beebo, he feels gutted now. not the same character at all. feels sloooowwwwwwww af. but they'll just keep buffing the ez heroes bc all the people who aren't ~able~ to play the hard ones just say they're OP. KP was probably the only other hero worth playing tbh, and they ruined his main thing too. game is boring now.

[sleek turtle]

was hight me and bush hit it 2nd and 3rd