#The female character are not just oversexualised, they are straight up poorly designed

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

rotund crystal
#

im saying bro lol

#

its always the karate rat purple arm players.

heavy magnet
#

#1407460293281583124 message

#

Let me just forward this so people who are actually in good faith see it.

rotund crystal
#

that thing is disgusting lol.

#

and saying its not good faith bc u are offended i think that something u are praising as a good design is some sewer trash is too funny

hollow crane
#

this guy mad hes not getting to goon to what he likes

rotund crystal
#

LMAO

hollow crane
#

simple as that

#

the damage furries have done to the internet is irreversible

rotund crystal
#

im gonna lose my mind LMFAO i looked into that game cuz i never played

#

like 99% of the cast looks like its furries

hollow crane
#

thats the game where everyone makes inflation mods

rotund crystal
#

so u think a rat with a karate belt is good design?!

hollow crane
#

for the characters

rotund crystal
#

im gonna lose my mind bro this is fake lol

hollow crane
#

hes a gooner bro

#

i dont respect gooners

rotund crystal
#

yea idk man

hollow crane
#

idc what they goon to

heavy magnet
heavy magnet
hollow crane
#

if you want a rat in a mech suit why does it need to canonically be a woman for you

#

genuine question

rotund crystal
#

so they are all skinny ladies too in that game huh?

#

weird... u are praising that game and have an issue w this game.

heavy magnet
rotund crystal
#

and the only difference is that game is fully of animals this ones full of humans lol

hollow crane
#

how would it change the gameplay

#

at all

#

"it would be a breath of fresh air to have a female rat in a mech suit"

rotund crystal
#

that goat lady is wearing 1 article of clothing covering her crotch how are u not enraged at that design lol.

hollow crane
#

i just couldnt imagine caring about this ngl

heavy magnet
rotund crystal
#

lmao i feel that

hollow crane
rotund crystal
#

she isnt meant to?

#

but she does?

#

good design i guess?

hollow crane
#

also as a guy who doesnt know this game

#

i didnt think it was a woman

#

are you saying pink hair makes it a woman?

rotund crystal
#

let me guess the karate rat that looks like she does karate also doesnt do karate? good design./

heavy magnet
hollow crane
#

no idea what that is

rotund crystal
#

what is this guy saying LOL

hollow crane
#

terminally online boomer terms i guess

rotund crystal
#

fr

heavy magnet
hollow crane
#

alien created in a lab with no genitals

#

put some pants on

#

all the pokemon should put pants on

#

bro you are really bad at arguing

rotund crystal
#

almost like one of the games has animals in clothes, then some naked ones, and the other game has all animals without clothes.

#

does pikachu have clothes does bulbasaur have clothes does charizard have clothes

#

hello?

#

delusion.

hollow crane
#

see the reason pokemon arent sexualized is because they arent designed to be sexualized

rotund crystal
#

this guy has CANNONS on his shell and still is not wearing clothes

hollow crane
#

by putting a tube top on a rat and giving her boobs you are sexualizing it

rotund crystal
#

that is their design

hollow crane
#

and you requesting a tube top and boobs on a rat

rotund crystal
#

why are u posting a game with ppl in clothes that has one lady character naked and saying its the same?!

#

LMAO

hollow crane
#

makes you a goooonerrrrrr

rotund crystal
#

the pokemon fr are just mon. mon stands for monsters. none are wearing clothes.

#

ur karate rat game has clothes on. that means removing clothes makes it weird.

hollow crane
#

pocket

#

monster

heavy magnet
rotund crystal
#

man u are on something.

heavy magnet
#

With how much of a dumbass you’re acting like, that sounds like something you’d say.

hollow crane
#

bro wtf r u talking about hahahaha

#

its so funny that people think the devs are going to read any of the threads in this discord

#

just talking to a wall for fun all day is quite a way to live

rotund crystal
#

i just feel bad cuz some of the ppl that are saying they want better female designs are not crazy and have decent ideas or points, but u just leech onto their viewpoint to push ur karate rat design and it makes them look almost as nuts as u lol

hollow crane
#

in the discord for a dying game based around mechanics and high skill ceiling

heavy magnet
#

I was just like everybody else, but then you people decided to completely derail the topic.

#

And now that I’m fighting back, apparently I’m the bad guy?

#

Go fuck yourself, you stupid prick.

mossy escarp
hollow crane
#

i will bet an entire bitcoin that they arent checking this one

#

hahaha

hollow crane
#

you are putting that mindset on yourself

rotund crystal
#

"you people" u are a freak man.

#

yes u are the bad guy.

hollow crane
#

all we said is that we dont like furry karata rat woman in the female champ discussion thread

#

because it was my understanding that this thread was in response to the underboob on mercury

rotund crystal
#

u are posting dogshit designs saying they are better than designs that are clearly better. u are freaking out callig ppl pornbrained while posting naked animals from ur game. like hello?

hollow crane
#

which it is, and is true

rotund crystal
#

that goat lady is NAKED man

hollow crane
#

and i think EVERYONE agrees that merc underboob is probably too much

#

and that sure, there could be better designs than woman with boobs

#

and from there it seems

#

that you want to goon to a different type of content

#

and would like your preferred gooning material in the game

#

which is directly antithetical to the op

heavy magnet
rotund crystal
#

u do that to urself first

heavy magnet
#

Do you go to zoos just to tell the people there to put some pants on the animals, or is it different because you’re too much of a pussy to rage bait irl?

rotund crystal
#

with ur lil karate rat naked goat lady game

#

are u crazy?

#

why does ur karate rat have clothes on

#

i just told u it makes sense for animals to be naked that is why pokemon makes sense. but if ur freak game has animals clothed, then maybe they should all be clothed bc that is the norm in that universe?

#

ever think?

heavy magnet
rotund crystal
#

but having one naked animal when rest are clothed? yea weird.

#

LOL

#

nice try man

heavy magnet
rotund crystal
#

how does me saying a naked character in a game full of clothed animals is weird mean i dont want unique hunters? LOL

heavy magnet
rotund crystal
#

u are doing ur freakazoid thing again where u completely ignore what someone says, put ur own view on it, then reply and argue.

rotund crystal
#

🤣

heavy magnet
#

You looked at a design that was never meant to be sexual in the first place, and then immediately acted like it was a sexual thing.

hollow crane
#

no actually kura just keeps saying "lets keep the gooning to a minimum"

heavy magnet
#

That can’t be healthy.

heavy magnet
hollow crane
#

i didnt

heavy magnet
#

You either don’t understand nuance, or don’t care enough because you’re a prick.

heavy magnet
rotund crystal
raven frost
#

I don't think there's any major complaints not alr heard a thousand times

rotund crystal
#

i never said the karate rat was sexual btw? i said her design is disgusting.

raven frost
#

There is room to complain or talk about other stuff too

rotund crystal
#

ur little goat lady being naked tho? thats weird.

heavy magnet
rotund crystal
#

when ur game has ppl fully clothed and one of them is naked yea its weird buddy. how do u not understand that?

#

why is it ok for one to be naked while rest are wearing clothes lol. and they arent some mythical alien btw they are same thing as the rest of the cast an animal.

heavy magnet
rotund crystal
#

if it was some weird alien freak from another planet then it can make sense.

#

?

hollow crane
rotund crystal
#

its not about being sexualized to me u gooner. its about it being weird in that games universe. why is there a naked animal in a game with clothed animals?

#

pokemon is not weird cuz theyre all not wearing clothes. why put clothes on a character then remove them for a single one?

#

and to make it worse...

#

heres the funniest part

#

THAT CHAR IS A GIRL LOL.

heavy magnet
dry forge
#

You're kind of projecting your own dislike for the character designs when a good amount of people actually like them. A lot of them aren't even similar when you look last body types, which isn't even most of their main thing.

Both sides are to an extent kind of just saying "i like the design and you don't screw you". Idk about this being a healthy convo

hollow crane
#

wait

rotund crystal
#

like u cant be serious u shouldnt be in this discussion if u are playing that and think thats a good design man

#

omfg LOL

hollow crane
rotund crystal
#

LOLLLL

#

dude this cannot be real

heavy magnet
dapper thicket
rotund crystal
#

this is more amusing than sitting in queue for unbalanced game so im enjoyin this

dapper thicket
#

So thats not a real argument

hollow crane
dapper thicket
#

Try again

rotund crystal
hollow crane
#

articulate it for me

rotund crystal
#

this guy wins gg

heavy magnet
dapper thicket
#

This guy just wants to project everyone as gooners, so what a female goat isnt wearing any clothes

#

Guess what

#

Maypul is a female ferret and doesnt wear clothes either

#

and she was named after Dan Fornace (the game creator)'s wife

#

so what now

hollow crane
rotund crystal
#

WTF?

#

now that is frick weird...

dapper thicket
#

No it's not

#

He married her

heavy magnet
dapper thicket
#

it would be weird if she was a random person

hollow crane
#

hahahaha

rotund crystal
#

so he married a ferret gg

hollow crane
#

you guys are arguing literally nothing

rotund crystal
#

im not arguing w this guy lol

hollow crane
#

we are talking about sexualization of animals in a furry game with no relation to this one

rotund crystal
#

hes delusional so i cant rly argue w him

dapper thicket
rotund crystal
#

its just talking and having him yell random shit in the background

dapper thicket
#

IDC that I've travelled to tons of RoA tournaments and met actual furries, no one is going to try to tell me that its a furry game

rotund crystal
#

u play that karate rat character?!

raven frost
heavy magnet
hollow crane
#

this thread was created as a response to mercury having her boobs out for no reason and now gooners are saying "WE CAN FIX IT BY ADDING FURRIES"

dapper thicket
#

The game itself isnt furry even if it does appeal to furries

hollow crane
#

furries arent unique or interesting designs either

#

for the record

#

its 2025 they havent been for a decade

raven frost
#

Wait thr naked goat we were taking about was absol?

dapper thicket
#

And also, theres characters like Kragg who is half rock

#

He's not a furry

#

he's a scaly

rotund crystal
#

can be rock furry tho

heavy magnet
raven frost
#

As a rivals player (didnt play 2 tho) ROA is not a furry game

rotund crystal
#

what is a furry game then

raven frost
#

The characters are furries sure but nobody who plays it is like actually a furry

rotund crystal
#

well there u go brah

hollow crane
rotund crystal
#

i wonder if sonic fox played it then u are wrong

dapper thicket
raven frost
#

Sonic fox played MK

dapper thicket
#

Proof that I was a top Rivals players

raven frost
#

Is that a furry game?

dapper thicket
#

Top 8 at Heatwave which was a supermajor and I travelled to all the events

#

I am an authority figure on this topic

rotund crystal
#

he plays multiple fighting games

#

maybe in his spare time

dapper thicket
#

I DONT CARE ABSA IS NAKED NO ONE IS GOONING TO THAT FCKING CANCER CHARACTER

raven frost
#

Yeah but like ROA is not a furry game is the point

hollow crane
#

ill say it again

this thread was created as a response to mercury having her boobs out for no reason and now gooners are saying "WE CAN FIX IT BY ADDING FURRIES"

furries are not unique characters. putting fur on mercury wouldnt fix the issue this thread was created about

rotund crystal
#

LOL

hollow crane
#

and derailing into "what about this game full of animals?"

dapper thicket
#

I AM THE AUTORITY FIGURE HERE, EVERYON ELSE SHUT UP

hollow crane
#

is so stupid

dapper thicket
#

UNLESS YOU CAN POST YOU HAVING A BETTER ACHIEVEMENT THAN TOP 8 AT A SUPERMAJOR

rotund crystal
#

instead of a girl w boobs out... hear me out... what if she was a goat lady...

dapper thicket
#

kura moving the goalpost once again

raven frost
#

I dont think the take of thaylt we can fix supervive by adding furries is shared by a majority of the people in this thread

rotund crystal
#

gotta keep moving it man this guy is too good at arguing...

#

i can fix her

raven frost
#

Olympia was just used as an example of good character design

hollow crane
raven frost
#

Which is like

#

Whatever

heavy magnet
raven frost
#

I dont think shes good but ok

hollow crane
#

the topic was "mercury hsould cover her boobs up"

dapper thicket
#

wait this is a mercury thread?

hollow crane
raven frost
dapper thicket
#

brah its just some boobs

hollow crane
#

hahahaha

dapper thicket
#

i see more when i go to the beach

rotund crystal
#

its abt the body shape of ladies being triangular

hollow crane
#

so youre back on our side

dapper thicket
#

cmon breh

hollow crane
#

lets go

rotund crystal
#

upper body shape lol

heavy magnet
#

If you’re not gonna add anything substantial, then get the fuck out and let the grown ups talk.
@rotund crystal @hollow crane

rotund crystal
#

and saying its bad design

hollow crane
dapper thicket
#

boobs are ok as long as its not on an ANIMAL

hollow crane
#

whats your elo btw @heavy magnet

raven frost
#

Im personally of the opinion that boobs aren't inherently bad

rotund crystal
#

hold on honey pause my furry game, the adults are talking...

hollow crane
raven frost
#

Its rly everything else that is an issue

rotund crystal
dapper thicket
rotund crystal
#

anyone else share that opinion...

dapper thicket
#

the exciting discussion is the goat one

hollow crane
raven frost
#

The main thing i want people to take away from this convo is that roa is not a furry game

#

Also play roa

#

Idk abt 2

heavy magnet
raven frost
#

But roa is fun

hollow crane
raven frost
dapper thicket
#

Yep

rotund crystal
#

this guy just freakin out cuz we called him out on his shitty taste of characters lol

raven frost
#

No top 8? Opinion discarded

hollow crane
raven frost
#

Ive top 8d a RCS

rotund crystal
#

karate rat purple arm disgusting design...

#

naked goat lady in game full of clothed animals... weird...

hollow crane
raven frost
#

Ok so you dont what wat ur on about

hollow crane
#

ive won a bunch of smash tourneys back in the melee days

raven frost
#

Not a furry game

dapper thicket
#

Fenrir is right

heavy magnet
rotund crystal
#

smash aint shit compared to furry fighter

hollow crane
#

@heavy magnet how many hours in supervive do you have and whats your elo

raven frost
hollow crane
#

and im not impressed

raven frost
#

Idk how 2 is

heavy magnet
#

Was if the fact that these two jokers talk like people that would be better off either jumping off a bridge or getting their Discord banned?

raven frost
#

Never played it

rotund crystal
#

so this guy freaking out over an easy mode fighting game with an ugly karate rat saying its good design?! WTF

hollow crane
#

you cant say "i won a top 8 and its easy"

hollow crane
rotund crystal
#

woah man too far...

hollow crane
#

@mods

raven frost
dapper thicket
hollow crane
raven frost
#

Way harder than like 4 or ult

hollow crane
rotund crystal
#

enjoy ur naked goat lady and karate rat man... dont need to tell me to kill myself...

hollow crane
#

the angry guy

heavy magnet
dapper thicket
#

All the new characters outside like the original are cancer

rotund crystal
raven frost
rotund crystal
#

he said the character design

heavy magnet
#

Something tells me you’re reading into this way too far, man.

hollow crane
hollow crane
dapper thicket
#

I mean in Rivals

hollow crane
#

@MisterSixtyFour how many hours in supervive do you have and whats your elo

dapper thicket
#

IM TALKING ABOUT RIVALS OF AETHER

#

NOT SUPERVIVE

rotund crystal
#

its an ugly karate rat with purplew arm to me. makes 0 snese lol

dapper thicket
rotund crystal
#

why even do karate if u got a purple arm id just go destroying ppl w that arm

hollow crane
#

i dont understand why anyone should care about someones opinion on supervive if they are in silver with like 30 hours of play time

raven frost
#

Idk about roa chars bc when I stopped entering tournaments I started playing Katie from the workshop

#

When I did tournaments I played zetterburn doe

heavy magnet
rotund crystal
#

gg. the guy who got top 8 said im right so mister sixty four (top 64 ahaha?) ur wrong

hollow crane
dapper thicket
hollow crane
#

bro

#

this thread is MEANINGLESS

#

it is a WASTE of TIME

dapper thicket
#

the workshop characters had cool mechanics but all had rly rly cancer gimmicks

raven frost
hollow crane
#

you are being distracted by TYPING in it

rotund crystal
#

distract ppl from the secret karate rat fanbase rising ... u caught me

upper helm
#

The thing with these threads that i wonder about is..do people consider brall oversexualized because you can see his nips? What does an "oversexualized" male character look like? Its always only female discussions.

dapper thicket
#

nope

#

im male and im not gay, hes not oversexualized

raven frost
hollow crane
raven frost
#

#nakedvoid

rotund crystal
#

brall got his pink nipple removed so someone did feel some type of way abt him at one point

heavy magnet
dapper thicket
hollow crane
#

mistersixtyfour doesnt even play supervive he just wants to goon to the character models and he cant do that to mercury

heavy magnet
#

It’s called nuance, which a lot of people either seem to struggle with or completely ignore for reasons.

heavy magnet
hollow crane
#

if its true its a fair point

upper helm
rotund crystal
#

he dont mind

heavy magnet
rotund crystal
#

he likes naked goat ladies too so why would he care about shirltess guy

hollow crane
#

i hate how this dude argues

#

its
bad point
buzz word
anger

#

in that order

#

over and over

rotund crystal
#

how is there no emphasis on a dude with his boobz out?

#

he just half naked brah...

#

at least big fat hudson has some decency and wears a shirt

upper helm
hollow crane
upper helm
#

Right

hollow crane
#

idk who needs to hear this but sometimes, some people

#

they see boobs

#

and they sexualize them

dapper thicket
#

@heavy magnet I just have one question for you since you keep on defending the naked female goat in the other game you play. How do you feel about Elluna being covered up in the beach banner, do you think she should be naked? That's all I need to know from you

image.png
heavy magnet
heavy magnet
dapper thicket
#

THINK CAREFULLY before you answer

rotund crystal
#

ahahahah

heavy magnet
#

No, I don’t think so, because Elluna is a child.

rotund crystal
#

WTF?

dapper thicket
#

All I'm gonna say is I have you mate in 2

hollow crane
#

elluna is 24

dapper thicket
#

My eval bar is all the way topped up right now

hollow crane
#

gooner detected

#

GOONER DETECTED

rotund crystal
#

ah hell nah this guy

dapper thicket
#

Guys I rest my case

#

I didnt wanna pull that card but sometimes you do what you gotta do

hollow crane
#

love this kenneth dude holy shit

rotund crystal
#

kenneth is a beast

#

got him to expose himself brah

#

do not lock this thread

dapper thicket
#

Yeah, mods lock the thread, we got the gooner already.

heavy magnet
rotund crystal
#

this is more amusing than superivive queue

late marlin
#

welp

#

fun is almost over

rotund crystal
late marlin
#

the mods are now mentioned

dapper thicket
#

ok fine dont lock it

#

SV needs this rn

#

the queue times need this

flat grove
#

I have been summoned

late marlin
#

please dont lock

#

i want to see this stupidity continue

rotund crystal
#

dont lock this place is good to have a chat

raven frost
#

Thread has devolved

heavy magnet
raven frost
#

Play roa 1

heavy magnet
#

Go fuck yourself like every other prick here.

raven frost
#

Its not a furry game

#

Its actually really fun I swear

rotund crystal
#

u think u have a word on what the mods should do after telling ppl to kill themselves?!

dapper thicket
#

Fenrir is right btw

flat grove
dapper thicket
#

Both of us got top 8 so we can speak objectively about the game

rotund crystal
#

uh earlier he told me and nuts to jump off a bridge or something

hollow crane
#

sixty four guy told us to jump off a bridge for not liking furries

rotund crystal
#

idc about it all in good fun ... right misterSIXTYFOUR (not even misternumberone?)

dapper thicket
#

He didnt mean it, it was just over the top banter during a heated moment

hollow crane
#

need new server rule: no talking about the female champs

untold fox
#

64 is getting heated, and nuts (and maybe kura now) are goading. best to shut it down.

rotund crystal
#

yea we just having a discourse feelings get involved sometimes

hollow crane
#

chill

dapper thicket
#

Although I do not agree with my opposing interlocuter, I would never ask for him to be silenced.

#

He is a good dude

rotund crystal
#

im not goading i think that karate rat is so gross lol...

hollow crane
#

kenneth did way more damage than me

flat grove
#

What the fuck did i just read through

raven frost
#

Guys please

rotund crystal
#

i mean u tell me man that karate rat is disgusting right

raven frost
#

Play roa

#

Its not bad

dapper thicket
#

We are but fellow philosophers that walked down different paths

raven frost
#

Its not furry

untold fox
rotund crystal
#

like cmon this thing is not good.

olympia.png
#

what is that

raven frost
#

Also can we get the next male supervive character in a thong

hollow crane
raven frost
#

I think that would keep things fair

rotund crystal
#

LOL

#

make him a crazy monster thing tho ...

upper helm
#

Dang this thread moves fast

hollow crane
rotund crystal
#

then hes unique.

untold fox
#

this went off the rails, and people that like... 80% agree are going for each other's throat because of a snowball of uncharitable reads. I'm sure the topic of character design will come up again, but feels like this one is not in a constructive mode atm.

hollow crane
#

i hate to be the one to say it but nothing constructive will ever come from a discord thread

#

i think its closer to 95% agreeing on the original topic:

#

merc underboob is unnecessary

#

i think most of well adjusted people also agree that it doesnt really matter at all

#

and that the game has bigger issues atm unfortunately

late marlin
#

im trying so hard to understand mistersixtyfour's argument in all of this

#

someone summarize?

hollow crane
#

hes a gooner who wants furry champs and hes jumping onto the merc design bandwagon to try to get there

late marlin
#

okay i thought so

hollow crane
#

and then responding with whatever topical buzz words might devalue the opinion of his opposition

#

"goalpost strawman gaslighting"

#

then when hes backed into a corner he just insults them

#

then people like me and kura and kenneth saw the thread like we're demonslayers

#

now you know the whole thread

late marlin
#

its actually crazy how kenneth setup the most obvious trap card and he walked right into it

hollow crane
#

kenneth is a monster

#

big fan

dapper thicket
#

It was really back and forth tbh, u had to have been there. At one point multiple people were accusing kura of moving the goalpost all the way to the moon

#

but somehow he came back stronger than ever

hollow crane
#

a true underdog story

upper helm
#

Mercury is so uninteresting to me that i dont particularly care. Game def has way bigger issues then character looks.

hollow crane
#

her kit is cool tho, moved closer to an actual support

#

idk if thats good for the game tho tbh

late marlin
#

cant even enjoy the rest of mercury's character design bc them things be hanging out too much

hollow crane
#

you cant even see them tho

#

its a top down game

#

😭

late marlin
#

lol

hollow crane
#

100hp on ur health bar is more than the size of her boobs

raven frost
#

Everytime Im loading in my just assaulted

upper helm
#

Interesting. I think i was like oh lol and never thought about it again

raven frost
#

I see my glorious Felix i look over and its straight tetas

hollow crane
#

i think every female champ should be in a niqab

raven frost
#

The tetas are bigger than Felix

hollow crane
#

and should be happily married

mossy escarp
#

I'm on the menu a lot (we all are) so I see them hangin out all the time. We spend a non-negligible amount of time viewing characters front-on

hollow crane
untold fox
mossy escarp
#

My biggest complaint is that they feel out of place in her design. Like an afterthought to make her more appealing to players

mossy escarp
hollow crane
#

shes very fun

raven frost
#

Swear when I went to unlock her her tetas slapped me in my fucking face

hollow crane
mossy escarp
#

Yeah it's just the underboob

untold fox
hollow crane
#

maybe to a sexist it would be though

#

🤔

upper helm
hollow crane
#

i think we all agree though

#

unironically

#

on that front

#

and her skin is dogshit

#

if her boobs have to be out rework her skin to be gooner but actually make sense

upper helm
#

Her face is so uncanny its creepy

hollow crane
#

i think her face is cute dont talk about my supervive waifu like that

flat grove
#

its mostly that i feel like alot of the faces look kinda similar

upper helm
#

I feel like they could of went alchemy nerdy cute or something and no underbooba

hollow crane
#

wait

#

hold on

#

holy shit

#

guys

#

we are BACK ON TOPIC

upper helm
#

But i dont care. In a dirty shrike main because i like to feel op

hollow crane
#

its not rocket science though. give mercury glasses and a wizard's big flowy robe or cloak.

if she has to have her boobs out put her in a sports bra like the rest of the cast

mossy escarp
#

I just think having her bazongas halfway out isn't doing anything in regards to delivering her character and gameplay through visual storytelling.The more women this game has with big bahoogas hangin out the less impactful Eva's design is overall.

Sexuality is a very potent avenue of character design to explore who a character is and why they are the way they are. It's just that as the waters get muddied by adding more of the sexiness, the less that it actually ends up saying about the characters and the less visually interesting it is.

#

It's like how everyone was doing souls games for a while and it got very overplayed

#

Now the genre is all but dead outside of FromSoft games

hollow crane
#

tbf

#

thats how it should be

mossy escarp
#

Too much of a good thing kills the good thing's value

hollow crane
#

no one can make dark souls besides fs

#

by that logic tho

#

they should just stop making this game

#

because fortnite and league exist

mossy escarp
#

Wat

hollow crane
#

u cant compare "everyone having sexy champs" to a whole genre of game

#

every game ever made for the rest of time will have women with big boobs

#

i dont love it but i think we know its reality

mossy escarp
#

It was more of an analogy that too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.

#

Even people addicted to adult content end up needing to keep upping the bar on what they consume as the regular stuff starts doing it for them less and less.

#

So I don't think booba are exempt

#

I don't mind hot characters. I just think that it should fit their design better and they need a good amount of contrast in the roster or their design will fall flat

hollow crane
#

yeah but i dont think trying to have the 4000 people playing this game (half in asia) fight the entire marketing world by reducing the size of mercury's visual breasts will fix that

upper helm
#

Yea thats fair.

mossy escarp
#

Yeah like we're definitely not at the iversaturation point yet

#

I mostly don't like Mercury's design because of how it feels out of place

hollow crane
#

she literally just needs a robe

mossy escarp
#

If another Eva-like character eas designed where being hot was the point I wouldn't mind at all

hollow crane
#

a big robe that covers her whole body

#

that would tie the entire champ together and fix the problem everyone has

mossy escarp
#

Okay well maybe I would mind. But that's a little off of the current topic

#

And a different argument altogether

upper helm
#

Next character thread? Maybee

hollow crane
#

no

#

do not make another thread lmao

upper helm
#

Lol

hollow crane
#

i feel bad for the mods as is

#

should be some sort of requirement to start a thread

mossy escarp
hollow crane
#

yes pls

upper helm
#

I kinda wonder in 2025, if like people have a vision, would it be better to just have a censor/censored toggle for original vision and more acceptable?

hollow crane
#

this is actually a good idea

hollow crane
mossy escarp
#

#🎨│fan-art message

I might have wanted to see some more detail on the white shirt, but overall I prefer this one significantly more than the og.

I love the softness added with this design, it really adds to the support/healer feels. The coliur changes on her metal elements also hit a bit more for me.

upper helm
#

Maybe. Surey mercury toggle would be simple? Some designs may be tougg

hollow crane
#

i get that they add frills and stuff but i didnt get the feeling she was a girly girl from the before or after

#

i feel like a big robe would make her seem like shes actually an alchemist

mossy escarp
#

I'm not too crazy about the pointy gloves but I can see how that communicates she's also a damage threat

hollow crane
#

shouldnt she at least look like a healer tho

#

since shes a healer

mossy escarp
#

Of SOME sort

mossy escarp
hollow crane
#

welder's apron

#

would be cool

hollow crane
#

since alchemy

mossy escarp
#

Yeah that could vibe for sure

#

Depends what green though bc it's harder to use that as a "good guy" colour

#

Jusging from her design they want her to appear more friendly and less foreboding

hollow crane
#

zeph does it

mossy escarp
#

True. He has a pretty light/desaturated shade of green iirc and his other design elements seem to help balance it out

rotund crystal
hollow crane
#

sucks that that guy stopped responding ngll

#

now im bored again

#

u guys wanna see a crazy play i hit yesterday?

rotund crystal
#

NO

#

the plays in this game now are just busted ass relics !!!!!!!!!

hollow crane
#

hahahahahaahahaa

rotund crystal
#

even my tetra posts are me oneshotting dudes with relics!!!!!!!!!!

#

time to eat my icecream

hollow crane
#

im hard stuck diamond because armory 🙁

#

im posting the clip idc

upper helm
#

What ranks do queue times become awful

hollow crane
#

diamond

#

not only is the time awful but playing is awful cause u still get gold on ur team

upper helm
#

Damn

#

yea i get diamonds and im gold. im close to the wall

hollow crane
#

u can do it

rotund crystal
#

nice. i like ghost in abyss a lot actually lol i get so many low abyss kills cuz ppl eventually tap glider a tiny bit

#

anyways... this discussion not abt that...

upper helm
#

yea i think ill be there soon. i usually queue duos with someone and we haven't really fit a difficulty wall yet, but solo queue sounds miserable

hollow crane
hollow crane
upper helm
#

I feel like we all basically agreed and this is the most active thread

hollow crane
#

yeah im just using this as the main chat atm

upper helm
#

i do kinda wish the top topic was something more relevant to the actual issues with the game but what can ya do

hollow crane
#

its been beaten to death

upper helm
#

true

hollow crane
#

and everyone has a different opinion on what the issue is

#

there are people that will tell you this is in fact the game killing issue

#

there are people like me who will tell you its the marketing

#

there are pros who tell you its the solo q expereience

#

there are people who have no critical thinking that say player count is the issue

rotund crystal
#

i dont even mind a thread being about the designs or boobs. but this thread i really dislike lol. talking about a triangular shape for all women then ignoring some triangles on dudes. saying oath is a rectangle when u look his top half is triangular etc. like that stuff is annoying to me.

upper helm
#

i read a lot of the top of this thread and i was kinda laughing a lot because i just didnt care but it felt so serious

rotund crystal
#

and to relate that as bad design is the annoying part. u can find a diff way or reason for saying its bad design. maybe u dont like boobs being out thats fine but saying a triangular shape bla bla like wat?!

#

it is srs bro...

#

dont fk w our triangles

hollow crane
#

lmaoo

upper helm
#

lol

hollow crane
#

its because its a discord

#

everyone thinks their words have weight and that they SHOULD say them

#

and if you have a topic sort of adjacent that you wanna discuss

#

you just throw it in the adjacent thread

upper helm
#

I feel like thats just 2025 and internet for sure. I don't know, i dont really get offended and if i don't like something enough i will just walk away

hollow crane
#

if i get offended i will bait the person into leaving first

#

100% hitrate

upper helm
#

Classic

hollow crane
#

current internet users were simply not built for it

#

they werent forged in the fires

upper helm
#

hyper sensitive era, i miss old internet

#

bring back gatekeeping, let things stay coool

hollow crane
#

so true

flat grove
#

old internet was literally the most pretentious cringe shit ever

hollow crane
#

disagree

#

you must have been in a different corner of it, and thats on you

#

but when my runescape friends sent me cool emo songs on youtube

#

it was very fuckin fun

#

and when i shit talked randoms after pvp they could handle it

upper helm
#

I find modern social media is so cringee

hollow crane
#

its a poison

upper helm
#

old youtube was oozing passion

hollow crane
#

old internet was people doing things for a reason other than monitary

upper helm
#

clickbaiting garbage everywhere is rough

hollow crane
#

current internet is a bot farm for extraction

shrewd tapir
#

That was so funny to read

hollow crane
hollow crane
#

holy shit he left the discord hahahaha

shrewd tapir
hollow crane
#

nah it wasnt even his thread hahaha

keen sphinx
#

Was he upset female characters look like females ?

hollow crane
#

he was upset that they werent furries, yes

keen sphinx
#

His bio says it all

shrewd tapir
keen sphinx
indigo verge
#

mistersixtyfour was genuinely one of the most sane people in this thread btw

dry forge
#

That ain't saying much cus no one was sane when they were typing in this thread

raven frost
#

He quit supervive now

keen sphinx
#

I had a guy quit cuz I told him the forge resets every season

rotund crystal
dapper thicket
#

He was not sane but he was quite the competant interlocutor, calling out every time when someone tried to move the goalpost

mossy escarp
#

I'm sane? Holy shit that's great to hear

#

dude was kind of a loose cannon

#

seemed to let his anger get the better of him

#

which is unfortunate

topaz hawk
#

I think the wizard guy was the most sane out of anyone here. Keep it a buck. Game needs more wizards

mossy escarp
#

He was sane when he wasn't calling people predators lol

untold fox
#

The one banned for what, an antisemitic crash out?

#

Nah he was always a clear parody sock puppet mocking anyone asking for representation in games.

mossy escarp
#

Yeah fair

split frigate
rotund crystal
#

that guy literally told me to kill myself. i should find a humane way of saying i dont fw someone?

#

please read before talking. every single one of that guys msg was dismissive and rude. i at least listen to ppl and reply with my own view, that guy just says anyone that disagrees is simply a gooner who loves big boobies and likes to wack off to mercury.

#

and to random losers that tell me to kill myself over a characters body in a game yea i am rude so what? im not rude to any of the other ppl? there is a reason for that.

split frigate
#

I did read before talking please dont speak down to me. I knew it was a mistake trying to be civil and ask for kindness. He already left, you dont have to be that way. This was a mistake, i cant deal with people this harsh I’m not built for this.

rotund crystal
#

how am i being harsh for saying someone that told me to kill myself is not sane? and how is that comment more acceptable?

hollow crane
#

i dont think kuras message is harsh

#

this last one at least 😉

untold fox
# hollow crane bro WAHT how did i miss that

I missed most of it myself. The wizard guy started necro'd the thread to insult Tiamat, then when tiamat clapped back they did what seemed like a dog whistle (several emojis including the star of david?). I think the bigger issue was an explosion they had after the fact, which got them turbo banned by mods.

#

and all messages purged

rotund crystal
#

LOL

untold fox
#

for the crashout, or was something deleted you're bouncing off?

rotund crystal
#

me im laughing at the crashout

#

just sounds so dumb lmao

untold fox
#

thread keeps pinging way more messages than are here when I check.

#

only reason i asked

hollow crane
raven frost
#

He was the guy who started saying supervive girls were being dressed like hookers so im a bit skeptical of calling him one of the sane ones

dry forge
#

I've seen at least 5 different girls today wear something like crysta, soooooo yea...(it'd prob be higher if I went outside more lol)

untold fox
#

The weirdest part of that is That's a lot of women in gloves.

mossy escarp
#

our media has kind of conditioned us to associate any moderate amount of skin showing to equate to sex-work or a lack of social dignity in women

#

Practically all adult media when I grew up in the early 2000's was very all in on this

dry forge
shrewd tapir
#

50 poop emojis. LET'S GO

untold fox
#

Man shut up. It's all phrasing of the topic name, and this is just the last instance of a half dozen recent threads, most named less confrontationally and negatively (and gee, as a result don't have the same reaction). It's always the one phrased negative enough to get a reaction that people decide are a referendum on the community.

#

Nevermind the fact a bunch of those are just paqt sock puppets

mossy escarp
#

#1401018031722729552 message

Hi just chiming in to add the to the point that phrasing and language used is very very important to the conduct of ensuing conversation. This thread remained largely respectful throughout

#

I went out of my way to write it as comprehensively as I could to keep the topic on track

#

shouldn't have had to, but I did and it worked

topaz hawk
#

Im not allowed to use palestine flag emoji im pretty sure thats anti semetic

#

🇵🇸

#

Cant react with it

mossy escarp
#

Huh

hollow crane
#

interesting counter point

shrewd tapir
#

Guys, we can go much higher. Let's reach 69 poop emojis to seal the deal

harsh girder
#

or it should

#

not sure if its working

hollow crane
#

mr mod can i have new name color

#

blue is boring i was thinking something cooler

harsh girder
#

sure just boost the server and u get a new color

hollow crane
#

what color

#

pink?

tiny yew
#

Wanting more diversity in female character designs seems perfectly reasonable, until you start narrowing it down to say "no body shape sliders", "more non-humans", "more unattractive characters".

1st: You can call it a strawman to say that means more 'fat' 'ugly' or furry characters

#

But it really isn't. After subtracting 'sliders' 'human shapes' and 'conventional attractiveness, that's all that's left

#

2nd: Once you realize that the people asking for this are just looking for subversion of norms around REAL-LIFE women's appearances you realize just how unhelpful it would be for a character designer to actually take that advice.

#

This is because all the good character designs I've seen are done 'constructively'

#

Take Celeste: ice dancer/ballerina motif with a magical tutu of icicles. Conveys a unique but simple theme perfectly

#

Contrast: Zarya from overwatch. Built like a truck to be subversive. Haircut to be subversive. Entire design seems oriented around what the designer DIDN'T like and makes for a meaningless design

#

They could release a clone of Reksai (from league) a giant monster who digs underground, with mandibles, and it wouldn't matter. This clone could be female, just like Reksai, but it wouldn't move the needle for those wanting more diversity among female body types, because it's not human. They could easily have made it male and it wouldn't matter except to be subversive. All of its unique intrigue would be overlooked by these people who only care about how subversive it is

#

TL:DR subversion is not meaningful because any interest it generates is only in contrast to what's being subverted

#

ERGO the only thing that actually matters is 'constructive' character design, and 'female body type diversity' is just a distraction from that.

rotund crystal
#

news flash for this chat...

stiff kestrel
#

what this guy yapping about bro

rotund crystal
#

sometimes there are pretty ladies that exist in the world...

#

🤯

stiff kestrel
#

just give me my hot booba women and ill swipe

#

is there anything more to think about?

hollow crane
#

hes agreeing with u guys

#

hes saying if a small group of people claim to want interesting characters but then say "there are only skinny boobed women"

#

they dont care about "interesting" they care about sizisms

stiff kestrel
#

when they gonna make female pudge from dota2

hollow crane
#

i think every female champ should look like eva

#

honestly just put eva in a different color outfit so i can tell them apart

#

but reuse her model 10x

#

and every male champ should look like kingpin

mossy escarp
#

Especially if they're not conventionally attractive.

#

It's about visual appeal

hollow crane
#

idk what ow characters look like let me go check

mossy escarp
#

I don't think Supervive has a design that isn't visually appealing in some way

#

But the designs become much less distinct and by proxy less striking when every other character looks like a reskin of their body in different clothes

#

Each Vive design in a vacuum is a good design

#

But when it becomes a standard of twigs, the next twig in line has a much harder job of differentiating herself and standing out from the rest

#

Mercury stands out because she's a bit bigger and has a big ass hat

#

I like that

hollow crane
#

i agree on the surface but if one twig has ice powers and a ballerina outfit and the next twig has a cowboy hat and a gun i can still tell what kinda spell theyre about to cast on me

mossy escarp
#

Yeah I agree on that

hollow crane
#

and u know im not trying to argue

#

im just sayin from a gameplay perspective thats all i ask for

#

thematics

mossy escarp
#

Yeah and that's valid

#

I just think there's a lot of room to really lean in to what makes them different, and that can reflect their gameplay better visually as well if done right

hollow crane
#

fair

mossy escarp
#

If Zarya was as thin as Mercy her design would be all the worse imo. She's an off-tank and her build needs to reflect it

hollow crane
#

do u think the solution is to rework current cast or to have these "different" characters come in every once in a while?

hollow crane
#

(weak argument)

#

(actually its a really bad argument on my part)

mossy escarp
hollow crane
#

(im just bored)

mossy escarp
#

The current designs are fine. If the vacuum gets expanded in a way that they start to stand out against the rest of the female roster in the future then it kind of solves the issue

#

In some form

hollow crane
#

so what % of the cast that have stronger/bigger/heftier/different designs should be designated to being female, specifically so that the female cast dont all look the same?

#

cause i think thats the issue u will run into when arguing with internet people

#

once u say "x% of y has to be z"

#

thats when the babies start cryin

#

if u see what im sayin

mossy escarp
#

Tetra specifically I might want to see bulked a bit though. She's tankier than half the dps cast in the game and her build is skinnier than almost everyone else female or not.

Doesn't matter if she's shredded, bulk is bulk. Muscles typically indicate a threat or strength, size typically indicates health or defense. I think Tetra has a disconnect in that regard right now

hollow crane
#

i think tetra should have the illaoi build ill give u that one

mossy escarp
hollow crane
#

for sure, but if theyre not imaginative for the next month or two and one doesnt naturally come around then we just have this thread repeated again

mossy escarp
#

Ideally just having their bodies reflect their health/damage/mobility capabilities is my baseline.

hollow crane
#

did pete block me or something

#

i see him typing but no messages

mossy escarp
#

Nah he's just typin up something

hollow crane
#

thats kinda where i was gonna go next

mossy escarp
#

Probably a long msg

hollow crane
#

like, if they knew next champ was a healer, and what the kit would be

#

it was always going to look like mercury's build

#

physically

untold fox
# tiny yew TL:DR subversion is not meaningful because any interest it generates is only in ...

I'm utterly baffled by this point. Like... It comes from a state of so many hilariously obvious inconsistencies. Celeste's design is a pure articulation of her theme with 0 outside factors. Zarya must entirely be built out of contrarian influences, has no visual language to speak to other than "subverting expectations" , is somehow not successful in anyone, and clearly the designer didn't like their own design?

untold fox
hollow crane
#

word

mossy escarp
#

Either way

#

Zarya's design is proven to have mass market appeal

#

And is very iconic

#

I don't think the argument that her design is meaningless comes from a place of bad faith

#

I just think it comes from a place of poor understanding

#

Or personal biases

#

Like I can call Hatsune Miku an uninspired meaningless design

#

But I would be very wrong

#

Despite my personal distaste for that style of design

#

Tl;dr:

It feels like I just read a "I don't like this so it's bad" take

untold fox
#

I'm not calling it bad faith. I'm saying it requires slanting the respective design critiques so much they are held to hilariously different standards, complete with presuming the desire and mind of the designer.

rotund crystal
#

not every lady is a freak of nature built like a deep freeze

#

some ladies p chill cool hobbies like crystal scientist that also happen to be fit (crazy right in a place where she perma fighting n movin around) 🤷‍♂️

hollow crane
#

but

#

@rotund crystal

hollow crane
#

and they used their crystal science on their fists

#

to do karate

untold fox
hollow crane
mossy escarp
#

I think it's gotta be a pretty fluid fraction

#

And it's not easily quantified

#

Very vibes heavy thing imo

#

I think the perfect ideal is probably to have equal amounts of every type. But I'm hesitant because I wonder if in the noise of the diversity everything will suffer for popping out less. Maybe this wouldn't be an issue if the designs were quality enough. I'm not experienced enough to know for sure.

untold fox
# hollow crane bump

There shouldn't be any set percentage (and I think supervive is neither the worst of this trend and has done plenty of better moves alongside a few disappointing moves) of whatever type. There just shouldn't feel like rules that restrict female character design in they can be, what they can look like, and what kinds of interest they are designed to spark.

hollow crane
#

aside from merc having underboob can u give me an example where theyve failed to do that?

hollow crane
#

because it is saying "alright guys dont forget when u ideate for the next champ we DO need a fat girl"

#

"keep that in mind"

mossy escarp
hollow crane
#

again keep in mind im speaking from the point of "this is what the internet is going to say"

#

idc either way, ik i keep saying it but still

#

i just play ghost

rotund crystal
#

yea they are 😏

dapper thicket
#

I will say, just to put on a note of positivity, the animal diversity in this game is quite good. We have a bunny, a fox, and a monkey. I hope we can get a cute cat like Yuumi next ^•^

rotund crystal
#

i want a wolf

hollow crane
#

yeah a naked one that does karate

rotund crystal
#

ooo good design actually

untold fox
# hollow crane aside from merc having underboob can u give me an example where theyve failed to...

Something I've before is that individual designs are not an issue (or at least not as much an issue), but the fact they always conveniently steer to a much more narrow cluster of design priorities adds up to a trend. Tetra one could argue works as a small, petite young woman with overlarge gauntlets. She's young, inexperienced, and dwarfed by her own power or legacy. But they chose that archetype over any where she was say more physically built. Myth is a mystic archer who (less so now, but very much so originally and still somewhat now) has ghostly themes, yet at no point was she like, emaciated or ghostly in any way that detracted from her being attractive. Little diversions where they keep them in a safe zone of character appeal in a way that, in sum, builds to a fairly strong pattern, and clearly male character designs are not so limited.

hollow crane
#

well shes an archer i think that would dwarf her being some sort of spiritual medium

#

or doubt that being a medium would make her slow somehow

#

and i guess youre speaking from a more thematic standpoint

#

idk its hard to build any sort of meaninful character backstory when i still dont even know why theyre fighting

#

or what supervive is about

#

or literally any single thing thats going on in the world

#

are there any champs you think would work fine if they switched from a guy to a girl?

untold fox
#

Oh okay, so wat characters have their archetype or narrative set up in a way that benefit from them being a specific gender, or would at least hit very differently, versus characters whose gender is agnostic or at least peripheral to how we read those characters?

hollow crane
#

yes

tiny yew
# untold fox I'm utterly baffled by this point. Like... It comes from a state of so many hila...

I made an argument, then followed it up with what is obviously an opinion. Of course I don't know exactly what the designer of Zarya had in mind when creating her. I was just saying that it SEEMED like Zarya was just created with a social agenda. Other non-generic Overwatch characters don't suffer from this.

Also I never said 'subverting expectations' I said 'subversion'. In this case what is being subverted are social norms. IE I was arguing that Zarya was created with a social agenda and not with 'good character design' in mind, and the design suffers as a result. Really just strikes me as a future-soldier 'Rosie the Rivetter'. Agitprop.

Also worth mentioning is that I am slightly biased against Zarya in particular because her haircut exploded in popularity and I find it ugly.

Counterpoint is that people who remember Overwatch 1 fondly as the cultural phenomena it was may be biased towards liking Zarya's design, where I don't think it's aged well. If Zarya was released for the first time as an Overwatch 2 character, she'd be seen as painfully generic.

tiny yew
#

IDK why you think Tetra isn't muscular. She's the only one with fully modeled and sculpted abs in the game.

#

Sure, Myth has a 'ghostly' element, but she's also a huntress. If we presume she lives off the land, she'd have to be strong. She's not a ghost herself...

hollow crane
tiny yew
#

Myth's abs are a texture

#

Normal maps

hollow crane
tiny yew
#

I suppose your right, the point was really just that Tetra IS muscular.

#

She doesn't need to be built like a male powerlifter. She is what a really strong woman would look like

mossy escarp
heavy magnet
#

Again, Olympia from Rivals Of Aether did that way better.
Even though she's scaled down to stay in scale with everyone else, you can really get a sense of power from her design.

OLYMPIA.webp
hollow crane
#

i agree they could build her like illaoi but they wanted a vi champ

mossy escarp
heavy magnet
tiny yew
#

When you're dealing with games like this, body size is completely divorced from strength. Now I'm imagining Tetra with arms as thick as Kingpin's

craggy wasp
hollow crane
#

so what are the options

#

we need a fat girl, a huge muscle mommy, and a child?

#

several people are typing

heavy magnet
#

Anyways, I think anything goes as long as it's not something that looks like it could have been made in 30 minutes with HeroForge.

#

...Actually, no. HeroForge has actual options for female character design. rocketW

mossy escarp
# tiny yew When you're dealing with games like this, body size is completely divorced from ...

Not inherently. With designs based around tools amplifying strength like Crysta's cannons or Joule's electricity you can get around needing a relevantly built body. Tetra while amped by her gauntlets has moves in her kit that would require her body to support the kickback from the strength the gauntlets provide (Charge lmb, rmb). This isn't a realism thing, it's a cohesion thing. She looks like the kickback from punching kingpin would send her tumbling, she doesn't have the weight to ground herself in the punch.

#

She seems to draw from fighting physiques but with the amped fists. Fighters need to be able to plant themselves because without it their punches would hit like nothing

#

And that's with regular fists on a regular human

untold fox
# hollow crane yes

Fun question! Sorry for the delay, had to try to put a toddler to sleep.

As you allude to the fact they've yet to find outlets for direct character lore in game have limited them, and that limits our understanding of character lore and how 'critical' someone's gender is to their character. At a glance I would say
Ghost seems to have lore (some kind of military background) that while not exclusive to men, the basic disregard for the lives of soldiers and the inhumanity imposed upon them is easier to do as a guy.
Jin and Hudson aren't inherently masc characters (the grim edgelord made into a weapon and the gruff mechanic are tropes that have worked on female characters before), but come down to relationships - we know Jin is motivated to avenge a younger sister his grafts made him forget, and Hudson is supporting Bishop and you could easily see as having a paternal role to her. Of those, I don't think Jin's 'I need to protect my younger sibling' is exclusively masc, or even necessarily hits better as masc. Hudson is more convincing works better masc just because we assume a certain aloofness, an emotional remove or inability to state care except through service, and that kind of fits (that's not true of course, just narrative tropes).
Kingpin, Void, and Saros all could work as women, but would probalby end up hitting different. Kingpin is voracious hunger and braggadocio the character - you can put that on a lady, but you'd have to commit to being a specific type for that not to land a bit differently. Ancient sages you kind of truck in different references - if Void was a woman we might start thinking of her more as a witch (either in the 'wisdom of the cosmos' or 'wild card outsider' ways). There's a paternalism implied in his character, and going femme would make it more a maternalism. Saros it's really just how we read his devotion to Helia, the sovreign of the Sunswept. Each of these could work another way, but would read a bit differently.

#

Carbine, Felix, and Wukong probably could all work femme. A ruthless bounty hunter who got uploaded to a robot after a botched job is hardly a masc-only trope, Felix's social rejectiona and scrappy lil' loony tune aspect is pretty divorced from gendered tropes, and Wukong seems a wide eyed adventurer on a Rumspringa equivalent - outside eschewing the sun wukong ref a bit, that easily can and has been done on female character.
Zeph and Brall are big black holes. No reason to think they couldn't be done femme, but that's unknown.
Oath and Beebo are dudes in name and language only - neither has anything like genitals or socialization as we would know it. There's still something in that we assigned these pretty sexless beings the idea of being a dude, but that's outside our scope.

hollow crane
#

i feel like shiv is already female carbine, thematically

#

i dont know the lore mind u

untold fox
#

The slick and ruthless gunslinger

#

In terms of lore involvement I think he's a bounty hunter with a grudge against the mark that totalled his body, she's the enforcer for an evil cyberpunky empire of resurgant elf-equivalents

#

Tl:DR - Beebo and Oath could be literally female with just changes in language, since they're beyond really counting as either narratively
Carbine, Felix, Wukong, and probably zeph and brall work either gender,
Kingpin, Void, and Saros would probably read a bit differently though you could find a femme equivalent without much issue
Jin and Hudson work both ways but could alter our sense of the relationships that define their motives, though I think Hudson's flavor might be more influenced by his gender than Jin's in that.
Ghost is largely unknown but is implied to have a role of martial service that usually is more easily explored as masc.

untold fox
tiny yew
#

That's pretty much exactly Rosie the Riveter

untold fox
#

yeah, 100%

untold fox
# tiny yew All of what you're saying here are valid observations. I just think it's a good ...

My larger point was not that Tetra is bad design. Her design works for what character they chose, by and large. But they conveniently chose the tropes and vibes that would push her towards a more safely marketable body type than say one where she has a more zarya style build. And it's okay in a vacuum they did that. But they seem like they're conveniently funneling their female character types to those same couple of clusters, and that's a specific choice that I think limits their design freedom.

fiery pelican
#

not enough fanservice

mossy escarp
#

Not to say Zarya's build was the only other choice ofc. I personally would've gone with more Junker Queen

hollow crane
#

next girl should be slime

#

girlzac

mossy escarp
#

Slime girl from Omega Strikers

untold fox
# tiny yew I made an argument, then followed it up with what is obviously an opinion. Of co...

I think for Zarya there was a thought of 'hey, we're trying to make a varied cast representing how anyone can be a hero' and that bled over somewhat to being encouraged to do female characters outside strict beauty standards kinda-sorta. Like, she's buff, has some arm bulk, and tall. It's really not radical.

That said I think she articulates her character fantasy well. She's a heavy weapons soldier. Her outfit does a balance of showing off her physical power (bared arms) and her more armored legs and torso. Her hair being short speaks to a practicality and physicality in both elements of her background (weightlifter and soldier), and the weapon does a great job of being futuristic, militaristic, and clearly super heavy - she's pratically wielding a mecha's arm. Her scar, while aesthetic and carefully not marring her attractiveness, also gives her this scrappier, tougher feeling.

The dyed hair specifically I think does several things, but isn't about articulating a social agenda. I think in part it's to show a flair of indivuality (similar to her shoulder tattoo), a sort of thing to say she's standing out from the crowd in a way, helping allude to her celebrity, quasi-propogandistic element in the army. It also helps defy the western expectation that stereotypes Russians as being dour, grim, and cartoonishly pragmatic - here's a splash of the colorful, the impractical. That eye-catching nature also speaks to her role as like, someone who is taking on attention to protect others. That's in her narrative, and that's in her gameplay, and the visuals reflect that too. It's also probably a way to have her step out of the shadow of the invariable TF2 Heavy comparison, who is also big russian with a huge underhand weapon. It also also probably is just a good color complement to the blue that dominate her outfit.

Her visuals are not about strict adherence to a clear archetype (though some elements are archetypical), but they do sell her character well in many ways.

heavy magnet
tiny yew
# untold fox I think for Zarya there was a thought of 'hey, we're trying to make a varied cas...

1st paragraph of your response:
I didn't accuse Zarya of being a radical departure from beauty standards. My problem is that the design is in SERVICE of defying traditional norms for women generally. Rosie the Riveter is literal propaganda. My complaint is not even that I disagree with it, it's that propaganda =/= art because it's too soulless. Zarya's superficial resemblance hurts her design. It's not 'constructive', it's 'deconstructive'. Deconstructive = boring, because it piggy-backs the concept it's subverting instead of being original. I will reference this point later.

2nd paragraph:
This is just standard tank design language. There's not necessarily a problem with this, as long as it's not the only constructive detail.... but it is. Scars, tattoos, big build, massive weapon. All par for the course for a tank. If the only thing unique about her is deconstructive it's a bad design.

3rd paragraph:
'...flair of individuality...'; '...celebrity quasi-propagandistic element...'; '...defy the western expectation...'. And you're argument is that this ISN'T about a social agenda? Not making a great case. Heavy from TF2 is a great comparison because he's the archetypal tank, and has a very boring design. The only elements that make Zarya 'step out of the shadow' are deconstructive, as I've said.

HOW THIS ALL TIES BACK INTO SUPERVIVE:
You, MisterSixtyFour, and Miles to a lesser extent all have the same theme to your argument. You all seem to want more deconstructive design elements in Supervive's characters. The problem is that by creating characters that are meant to defy IRL social norms, they become conceptually linked to those very same norms. Supervive female characters ARE samey and adhere to IRL social norms. That's true. But what makes them good is that they are also constructive. It really seems like the devs did what they should, which is ignore IRL norms altogether.

TL;DR

  • Deconstructive designs are bad
  • Constructive designs are good
  • Supervive female characters ARE samey
  • It doesn't matter because they're constructive
  • Please stop asking for deconstructive designs. Go (way) too far and you become Concord.
shrewd tapir
#

holy based

untold fox
# tiny yew 1st paragraph of your response: I didn't accuse Zarya of being a radical departu...

Wait, do you seriously think expressing a female form to strict beauty standards is pure art, and that art must be apolitical to have 'soul'? Like the notion that going against the grain of beauty standards is soulless politicking and therefore deconstructive and therefore bad, but slavish adherence to a beauty standard to fulfill a marketing quota is just art and constructive and therefore good and soulful and not political, is so wildly unfounded in any theory of art.

Hell, it seems like you're saying any art which defies expectations of the canon is deconstructive, making... all modernist or postmodernist or subcultural or non Western art all bad art. It's the logic that makes regimes declare halls of art 'degenerate' for being the wrong style or wrong form or wrong politics.

The constructive vs. deconstructive line seems to be "is purely playing to expectations or upholding social norms", which is as a standard is arbitrary, soulless, and itself, propagandistic.

mossy escarp
#

I'm just confused about what constitutes "Deconstructive" art and why it's a bad thing? One of the biggest hit Anime in the last 15 years was One Punch Man, a deconstruction of the superhero and shonen genre that has soul abounding from within

tiny yew
#

THIS IS A REPLY TO PETE:
To your first question: no. I'm saying adherence to beauty standards is irrelevant and that good character designs are agnostic to this.

Character designs COULD in theory be deconstructive in some ways and still be good if they are also constructive in other ways. It's just in practice you never see this. Pretty hard to 'build' and 'destroy' at the same time. When a designer goes out of their way to be deconstructive, they miss out on opportunities to be constructive.

Modernist art can still be constructive if it's incidentally modernist. That's fine. Postmodern art is unironically garbage. Just because certain evil Germans had those halls of bad art doesn't make the bad art better (also I would appreciate not being compared to them implicitly, thank you).

mossy escarp
#

Dw I gotchu I know you were typing that well before my message was sent

tiny yew
#

Great characters generally

#

No opportunity cost for being deconstructive like there is with character designs

untold fox
#

I'm was just saying the logic of constructive vs. deconstructive, and the logic of politics that are not strictly conservative to the values of the canon and society are pernicious and anti-art, and the selection of what deconstructive elements are acceptable and what are not follows the logic practiced by censorious regimes.

mossy escarp
#

I have a critique of the social agenda part of your response if I can have a sec to type it out

#

Are perceived social agendas or politics in art not entirely dictated by the person viewing the art? If you see it that way but another does not, does thay invalidate the design for them because it is invalid for you?

I think a design like Zarya spoke as political activism through design for some, but spoke more as a design itself for others

tiny yew
#

Canon provides a 'jumping off' point from which original designs can and should vary. Canon is the trunk of the 'tree'. Deconstruction is when you dispense with the tree altogether, prune the branches, try to cut it down, or claim that the soil is as good as the root. Postmodernism is the most soulless anti-art I've ever seen. It devolves into stream-of-consciousness built of nothing.

hollow crane
#

one punch man is good

mossy escarp
#

Like there is definitely artist intention in what the given piece conveys. But at the same time everything is political to someone. I think everyone likes politics in art, just not when it's the politics they don't want to see which is super valid.

tiny yew
hollow crane
#

but im talking about bad art

#

and i dont count bad art as art

#

and also art isnt subjective its up to pair of nuts

#

and no one else

tiny yew
untold fox
hollow crane
mossy escarp
mossy escarp
#

I'll need to brush up on definitions to make sure I'm sure what I'm talking about before continuing this convo. Unsure if I'll have time I am at work

tiny yew
#

Please don't listen to my yapping. Please just focus on work. No one should get canned over wasting time on discord

mossy escarp
#

Nah dw I have a lot of free time. We're appointment based and I'm caught up on upkeep

#

The next hour or two is either we get a walk in or I twiddle my thumbs watching youtube

tiny yew
# mossy escarp Isn't this view of post-modernist art the same part of the cycle that happens ev...

Absolutely. New styles are usually more deconstructive than previous ones, and therefore worse, except that what redeems them is that usually new things can be made from the pieces of what came before. You can only destroy so much of the canon though before there's nothing left to work with, if that makes sense. There's nothing more destructive that comes after postmodernism, because postmodernism has no meta-narrative to destroy.

Anyways postmodernism is getting really old. The sooner we can start building new meta-narratives the better, even if they're just recycled.

Supervive has almost perfect representation among female characters. We have overboob with Eva, Underboob with Mercury, now all we need is sideboob and all angles will be represented lol

#

My argument is essentially: embrace norms and deviation, reject deconstruction

mossy escarp
#

Idk that feels like eating spaghetti with different sauces everyday. It might be good but it's still just noodles

#

I personally enjoy mold breaking art

#

And I think that - including post-modernism - push art forward as a whole

tiny yew
#

Forward towards what?

tiny yew
mossy escarp
# tiny yew Forward towards what?

Toward something new, something exciting. Pushing the standard of any medium forward is always a messy process with lots of misses and failures along the way. But the incremental successes add up

#

Take cgi for example. It was always good and interesting in its own regard, but through decades of trials, successes, and failures it's been driven to capabilities no one could have dreamed of in the 80's

#

You can apply virtually every innovation to this method, including art. Things will be bad before they get better. But even through that a diamond might strike out and put everything else to shame (Spiderverse, Mob Psycho, Fallout: New Vegas, etc)

#

I just think stagnation and norm adherence is the death of creativity overall.

untold fox
#

But then it's bad to eat multiple cuisines, or try someone doing a weird new twist on cuisine? How... how do you think we established cuisines in the first place? Like, you're couching this in terminology that sounds like theory, and the subjective opinion of 'I like the classics' is fine or whatever, but you're ultimately applying this to say having female character designs outside a narrow beauty standard is unartistic because it forwards a social agenda (that is 'women are people that can be cool in more ways the being conventionally hot, and it would be cool to get characters who reflect that variety'), and that maintaining the same body type is good because it works within a canon (in this case, the canon of video games only making women look one way to appeal to x beauty standard for the conventional wisdom of it sells good).

Like, you can have a subjective opinion, but if we're regarding all innovation as suspect, all 'politics' as anti-art, and anything that critiques the canon it's within as nihilistic slop that is unable to make its own tradition, we're risking embracing a lens of guys on twitter really mad we're not making marble statues in the greek style.

mossy escarp
#

I mean hell some of the generally considered greatest artists of all time created art that was considered trash during their era

#

Wait my point about great artists has a glaring flaw

#

I rescind it

tiny yew
# untold fox But then it's bad to eat multiple cuisines, or try someone doing a weird new twi...

It's not at all bad to deviate. I eat sushi all the time and none of it is 'classic' except maybe the California Roll (which itself isn't ''''''pure'''''' sushi, but pure sushi isn't real). I'm advocating that Supervive's female character designs should transcend norms by variation, not discard them. It doesn't even matter that the norm in question is 'female beauty standards'. We don't have to go back to the Flappers of the 20s with women having pencil-thin physiques. There's no value to adhering to modern beauty standards specifically besides adherence itself.

Innovation isn't suspect, deconstruction is just not a valid way to achieve it. Politics isn't anti-art, it's the deconstruction that's anti-art.

The problem with the angry twitter men mad about sculptures is that they have nothing to offer besides their opposition to what they hate. That's deconstruction as well.

At the risk of opening a can of worms, I'm pulling ideas from Nietzsche

untold fox
mossy escarp
#

Nothing wrong with reading or finding meaning in Nietzsche's words

tiny yew
#

I know he just had his reputation ruined by charlatans

mossy escarp
#

Though I can see how some folks would latch on to that negatively

untold fox
#

I wasn't being down on Nietzsche. Just agreeing with bart's half joke that it's a can of worms to bring him up

mossy escarp
#

Yeah I was responding directly to him dw

#

All it takes is 1 fascist government to ruin a philosopher's reputation smh my head

#

all jokes ofc

tiny yew
#

I just want functional institutions, rich cultural traditions, and a busty woman with a 5 ton hammer in my live-service vidya game lmao

#

Mostly just the last one

#

God help any dev or mod trying to read this. My heart goes out to you

untold fox
# tiny yew It's not at all bad to deviate. I eat sushi all the time and none of it is 'clas...

I think the line of deconstruction vs. deviation is what is baffling me then. I don't see Zarya as pure, nihilistic deconstruction. She fits many tropes of a protective tank figure, has a few innovations, and has a clear narrative within the canon. The celebrity athlete that sacrifices her career to fight the good fight. She's basically Russian Pat Tillman. You can not like her, but she's not pure dada.

Similarly, I don't think looking for more variety is deconstructive as you define it. It's not about constantly and thoughtlessly defying a beauty standard, but rather conspiciously allowing female characters to tell the story of their character better through their visuals, and that those stories can be just as varied as those of male characters. If saying women can be as many types of characters as men is destroying our canon, then our canon is a weak baby canon that deserves to get bodied.

That's not saying we can never have hot women. Just that if editorial fiat demands we make all women the same seeking the same sort of appeal, it's less artistically interesting, worse character articulation, and also sends a weird social message (one I would call a far more anti-art thing than whatever editorials helped make Zarya). Not saying TC is purely doing that, just I hope they get the space to express the creativity they clearly possess for all characters, in a way they have not in the past seemed entirely free to.

untold fox
tiny yew
#

I guess I hadn't really thought of Zarya in that light. I might have been unfair. Maybe my view of Zarya is tainted by characters that share those deviating traits who are just mindlessly deconstructive.

Your second paragraph is almost spot on. Telling story through visuals is kino. All I would say is that if you completely depart from norms associated with human appearance, it no longer matters what the gender is. Oath and Kingpin being male or male-coded doesn't matter very much. Maybe a little. We don't need to dispense with modern notions of what's physically attractive in female or male characters to get sufficient variation. All humans male or female in Supervive are broadly attractive, except maybe Hudson, and that's really not holding the game back from getting a female Kingpin or Oath.

#

Add a female or male Reksai clone, doesn't matter

#

There's no unfairness there

#

It's just better if there's some root-idea holding things together

mossy escarp
#

Also unironically the most productive conversation had in this thread up until this point

#

Thanks for being good sports you two

#

Crazy what can happen when we're not immediately aggressive lol

mossy escarp
white kestrel
#

i redownloaded deadlock and HOLY this roster is oozing in variety and personality

#

yes they also have sexy bad bitches dont start with that

white kestrel
#

obsessed with this queens crouch

image.png
untold fox
#

I do like the variety there. It's not like there aren't attractive characters on the cast - gheist and mina have that, and it's central to their design. Then they got the adorably earnest garghoyle vigilante and that snake dirtbag (though her model is temp and will probably end up more snakey - there's a wip running around, though I don't think it'll be any more attractive).

white kestrel
#

supervive wouldve made her have an underboob dfSAKJFSD

image.png
untold fox
#

It's an even distribution system. The release was 1/3 a velma expy and a mean girl in thigh highs for the dudes, 1/3 a shirtless byronic sad boi and sadistic eldritch being with posh manners for the ladies, and then 1/3 a beligerant goat man with rancid vibes and a matt mercer doing a hilarious cajun accent as a literal murder hobo for the freaks. Something, something, sex sells.

white kestrel
#

wait they already have a bigger roster than supervive 1.0.... ohh

image.png
white kestrel
untold fox
harsh girder
bright smelt
uneven frigate
#

like hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby

bright smelt
hollow crane
#

i dont like the mafia vibe at all

#

but thats just me not them

white kestrel
#

marvel rivals has infinite characters to pick from but they can never make a character cooler than lash

storm belfry
#

The dude who lead development for dota 1 and dota 2 is the lead for deadlock he's had a lot of experience

untold fox
#

Wait, are there more newsboy caps than fedoras?

hollow crane
white kestrel
#

How do you get banned in a game not even out yet 😭

mossy escarp
# white kestrel JUMPSCARE

Worth noting that vipers animations are so key to her character feel that literally no other body type or anything less snakey would work. Her whole character is built around co stantly sliding and slithering while gunning people down and it feels SO good to play

#

I can't think of a SV hunter that is that dependent on animations for their gameplay feel. Maybe Joule?

hollow crane
#

and i thought it was funny

#

dev said i got reported 15 games in a row for pausing as soon as the game started

#

but they removed it after my ban so, youre welcome everyone

mossy escarp
#

Can still insta pause the game

#

Probably just banned for abusing it

#

Pauselock haha

untold fox
mossy escarp
mossy escarp
white kestrel
untold fox
#

I'd also regard the amount of expression kp gets out his monster arm as pretty solid.

mossy escarp
#

Yeah I might just be riding the high of playing viper for the first time last night and being blown away once she clicked

#

Building all slide distance + gun items makes her a crazy fun mobile kiter constantly slithering around

#

Honestly she really reminds me of the animals from Rango design wise

#

Just humanoid enough to help people relate

#

But solidly animalistic to heavily lean into her snakey qualities

untold fox
#

I look forward to her having scales that resemble a pencil thin moustache

mossy escarp
#

LMAO YES

storm belfry
mossy escarp
#

I'm just glad I play at an elo where no one really buys that stuff lol

#

defo not a game I want to get to the top end of

storm belfry
#

It's one of the few games I think has an almost infinite skill cap tbh

raven frost
#

While we r on the subject of deadlock

#

Supervive needs a lash

#

And he needs to be in a thong

#

Thats my contribution to this convo

mossy escarp
#

I raise you Slingkini Hudson

raven frost
#

Thats good but is it lash good

mossy escarp
#

only if his slam is an ass slam

hollow crane
hollow crane
#

until the other team left

#

my winrate was 100%

mossy escarp
#

LMFAO

#

Okay deserved

#

You are the pauselock

heavy magnet