torpid tundra
This is our biggest insight yet to what the thinking behind the Armory is and who's better to discuss it than the developer who made the armory. I will provide a short TL;DR, main points that were discussed as to why the armory exists.
**NOTE: The following post includes timestamps along with my own interpretation of the content and is not intended to replace the original video. For full accuracy and context, please watch or listen to the source material directly **
KN - King Nidhogg
[XX:XX] - Timestamp
/ - Statement/Quote cut taken from another time
"Text" - Direct quote
[20:00] The addition of armory is NOT about player retention. / "We weren't meeting the promises that the original game made to players." / Armory was made because the randomness of BR completely annihilated the pace of the game forcing people to stop and read what their item does / [25:59] The armory is the promise that was made for the original game, Project Loki
The developer said that the armory is taking back what Project Loki was all about which was the creative freedom of building items and then abusing that said item that nobody else has found until they(TC) themselves nerf it to the ground
Yeah we're never getting armory to T1 at least unlocked for everybody lmfaoooo
This means that someone rocking a 3-star equipment may find himself having good success, but he'll still find himself matched against people with the same level even if these said people have 1-star equipment.
This is a comment along the lines towards the matchmaking and how armory in my own interpretation is that the armory doesn't reflect much in terms of fighting because if you kill them, you're going to be ahead. That is if you kill them despite the power gap within items
The dev here is talking about the rest of the playerbase around bronze tier. No one is really ranking nowadays and there was a screenshot here somewhere of someone being silver and being like top 7% of the playerbase. So at most this is referencing bronze/silver
The data backing this up is currently non-existent as TC is still in the point of gathering data for 1.0 [18:58] No mention of the matchmaking in open beta having more players and how matchmaking favored around then.
They wanted to stop players from reading while in the game and armory was made so that the players have an offline session where they read the items in the armory to prepare for builds into the game so that new players aren't swarmed with lots of descriptions and details and tons of mechanics. The whole goal was to give players bite-sized chunks to feel less overwhelmed about the game
TC wants players to cultivate and see and make players think, that if they have item A,B and C they'd go dominate other players and see it as a fun thing and be more flexible with a limited item set
It's a reference to the meme
I... have a lot to say about this personally but I'll just let the statement speak for itself
I'm assuming this is a callback to 24:50 where "The version where everyone gets it(armory) unlocked is way too much" and he's talking about the current state of the game right now will be better than the version where everyone got all items unlocked. This whole statement is incredibly vague but that's MY interpretation of it so please watch the original video for more context if you need more clarification on it
Which is I'm assuming a reference to how old beta players see Supervive as this great game and it(beta) not having a great amount of playerbase
When it was in closed/open beta
This is referencing the armory that disappears every season (3 months if following open beta schedule)
The quote ends there and pivots to what they think of how to cater to the new audience/new players playing the game
This is talks about having different tier of armory between players. Armory discrepancy between players is large enough to be labeled as overwhelming odds
Again a reference to armory of different tiers and fighting in a disadvantage
EDIT: Adding more context to this go back to [1:01:14] they were talking about League pro play. They were talking about how when you watch League's pro-play scene you get to see these plays these pro teams do where you think they're throwing the game, they're playing to their 'outs'. They have to force that fight because they're already in a losing position and it's gonna be a 30/70 fight and for the next fight it's gonna get even worse over time later on because of scaling.
This statement came out literally out of nowhere so it's hard to pinpoint exactly what this means, but my interpretation of it is exactly followed up by what KN said after which you are objectively weaker than the opponent. So my interpretation is that this is what they think of armory for when players are in the game. You know, you're weaker than the opponent so the best thing you could do is to try and outplay them in that losing position so that you could loot their items and be incredibly powerful after
The conversations that follows beyond this point are repeated conversations and life-lessons, j*bs, different companies, revisiting old Supervive games by KN, and farewells to the stream
Do note that TC are still reviewing all of your reviews, [1:15:54] "There's got to be some reason you're still bothering us to give us feedback you know and so help us understand what you still love about the game."
To anyone posting about their love and criticisms about the game, just know that your voices are heard and TC will keep on listening. The reason why we're still here playing the game and communicating with the community is because we still see some potential for Supervive
Whether that potential may be with the inclusion of armory or maybe one without it. Just know that TC is still listening and I'm glad that this conversation happened
I'm taking a break after this I'll lay out my thoughts later, just wanted to show a TL;DR for those who didn't want to watch or people who wanted key points around the video. Again a disclaimer: This post includes timestamps along with my own interpretation of the content and is not intended to replace the original video. For full accuracy, context and transparency, please watch or listen to the source material directly
Thread starts here: #1402169717312978994 message
mellow bolt
First of all, thank you very much for your efforts. To be honest, watching an hour-long interview is quite energy-consuming, so I really needed a written version.
runic crescent
For the last two things you are interpreting them in bad faith, they were talking more in general terms, not directly about armory. When talking about overwhelming odds and were specifically mentioning league when it comes to the 30/70-20/80 odds. Scaling isnt as agressive in supervive as it is in league. This wouldve been a better post, if you had left out your intepretation and stuck with what was actually said. Regardless, thanks for the effort
honest arch
this is the most hilarious shit I've read in my entire life
"Armory was made because the randomness of BR completely annihilated the pace of the game" so instead we have a fucking gacha system
well done bro
torpid tundra
For the last two things you are interpreting them in bad faith, they were talkin...
I will admit that I am against armory so I can see your point on there. The reason why my comment can be seen as a bad faith take on that is because I wanted to highlight two things
A. TC knows that armory has an overwhelming effect in games to the point where they are admitting that it can be 30/70 and 20/80 2 minutes later according to KN
B. We get to know what TC thinks about the balancing within scaling of the game and they're completely fine with having things like that
Do note that my interpretations are entirely optional and feel free to not mind it and focus more on the meat of the subject
honest arch
No but like I read through like 2 things and I can't stop laughing bro
"We weren't meeting the promises that the original game made" the original promise for the game was a 10k hour competitive game, yet now they've removed the "competitive" tag from the game completely 😂
runic crescent
Where did they remove the tag?
Tags on steam are user curated, not definde by the devs
mellow bolt
## Legend
- KN - King Nidhogg
- **[XX:XX]** - Timestamp
- / - Statement/Quote cu...
This is a comment along the lines towards the matchmaking and how armory in my own interpretation is that the armory doesn't reflect much in terms of fighting because if you kill them, you're going to be ahead. That is if you kill them despite the power gap within items
This is the most bizarre logic I've ever heard. I really wonder what kind of world they live in lol
honest arch
THIS CANNOT BE REAL HAHAHHA
runic crescent
- **[14:16]** "The premise of our matchmaking is that the fights are fair" / "Th...
There matchmaking doesn't factor in armory. It's the same logic used for old rune system league. You could get matched against people with filled rune pages while you are still working on filling one, and if you beat them you rank up and get matched against stronger players who probably have even more runes/ different full rune pages
honest arch
There matchmaking doesn't factor in armory. It's the same logic used for old run...
To be entirely fair the gap in "power" is different
What I mean by that is you're generally WAY stronger in this game if you have higher star relics than you were back then having rune pages in my opinion
runic crescent
Playing against people without runes meant auto winning your lane, supervive has a lot more ways to outplay your opponent then old-school league had
But I agree, relics do get way stronger with dupes
mellow bolt
Even if it's reflected, it's meaningless. This game requires 36 people per match, and the number of concurrent players isn't even 10,000. Right now, in ranked, Bronze is being matched with Legend, So it's a ridiculous delusion to believe that Armory can be reflected in matchmaking.
runic crescent
I think it's more a problem with acquisition though
honest arch
In general saying matchmaking is better now is just a joke. There's no other way to describe it.
mellow bolt
Even if it's reflected, it's meaningless. This game requires 36 people per match...
They said in the patch notes that they would match players with similar armor levels to ensure fair matchmaking, but I was really disappointed to hear that. Why on earth do they suffer from such impossible delusions?
They will definitely have similar armory levels lol
torpid tundra
I think the thing that worries me the most is that they're really okay with this large discrepancy of power level between players and they understand it to the point of it being the intended way to view this game. Which is it's okay to be more powerful than your enemy before you even start the game due to the amount of viability you have simply by having better unlocked items
Them admitting to certain fights going from 30/70 to 20/80 feels like a slap to the face along with the dev being really locked to the idea that the Armory are building blocks that is made to forcefully slow players down and the version where everyone gets it(all armory) is "too much"
also yeah the Matchmaking comments made me laugh when I heard it
runic crescent
I think the thing that worries me the most is that they're really okay with this...
They didn't admit that
Stop quoting the 30/70 thing wrong
Your hatred for the armory is blinding you
silver horizon
I think they are scared of the "old Supervive" where you had everything unlocked from the start, and people weren't reading cuz it's boring to read everything in 2025. So now we have "building blocks" and slowed down progression so someone that knows the game by heart still has to go through a daily chore of prisma farming to be finally able to play the game at it's peak :)
this interview is concerning
runic crescent
The reading issue still exist with the perks imo
torpid tundra
Stop quoting the 30/70 thing wrong
"When I'm watching a LoL esports you know, and like you watch some of the like teams... it just looks like they're throwing the game and the deficit is getting bigger and bigger and and the competition like, 'what are they doing?' You know it's like, they're playing to their outs, you know and it takes a particular mindset for the players of that team to be like excited to embrace that you know, like yeah the crowd will think we're an idiot. And what they don't know is that this is the only line that wins... We got to take this 30/70 right now because if we don't the next fight is a 20/80."
Nidhogg then says after that there are certain states of the game where you are objectively weaker than the opponent and you will be even more objectively weaker in 2 minutes from now
This is a statement for IN the game not OUTSIDE of the game like Armory does. Stop wearing those rose tinted glasses and actually listen to what's being said
runic crescent
Icons aren't readable so most players I know are just picking everything up of the floor without reading
torpid tundra
Nidhogg's statement is true during open beta. You fight objectively weaker later if you farmed poor, eg. bad Armor/not red equips that's what's being talked about with scaling
runic crescent
Read the excerpt you cited
He directly talks about league with the 30/70, I'm not saying that you can't be at a disadvantage in supervive, but please be serious
torpid tundra
can you not see analogy or what
did you think Nidhogg talking about Blue and Red squares were just blue and red squares
It's an analogy for armory and scaling which they discussed in [59:00]
runic crescent
So you think they are saying having a maxed armory makes a matchup 80/20 in your favor?
torpid tundra
Yes? What do you think is the difference between a void who has Squid and a Void who doesn't
the other one has a guaranteed stun
runic crescent
They are using league as an exmaple but you are just taking it 1 to 1
torpid tundra
I'm the one taking it 1:1 when you view it one dimensionally about how it's just about League? 💔
runic crescent
I said my piece, you can keep misrepresenting it, I dont have the entire day to argue with you
torpid tundra
🤷♂️
honest arch
actual tragic interview, this unironically should've never been posted
torpid tundra
Alright after taking some time after writing these keypoints and summary, here's my overall thoughts on the interview
For King Nidhogg, I think he conducted the interview pretty questionably. There were a lot of times where the dev wanted to go on a TED Talk and keep talking and then KN just comes out and intervenes and talks about his own Supervive games or something else
The main one that was really annoying to listen to was the: [50:35] "I wanted to create uh more compelling long-term goals for players to chase besides rank" because the dev looked like he was about to say something more but KN just interrupts and starts a whole tangent about Blue and Red squares for a good minute because I was really interested in what the dev was saying there
Getting King Nidhogg out of the way for the actual interview itself:
It's a brave move, but also feels like a calculated way to avoid real scrutiny when the interviewer is someone you're sponsoring and is pretty much nearly the face of Supervive itself. I don't think there were really any hard hitting questions in the interview that we really need to know badly. I won't say the questions that I had in mind here because I think that it's a bit too critical and negative, but I do wish that we got an interview far beyond from the safe space of the game's creators or at least a creator who can actually play the Devil's Advocate a little bit better because KN admits that he's a lawyer/defender and admits that he's a shill and it's fine to call him that (his quote not mine) and a pretty much just a yes-man throughout the interview
But I would like to admit that a MASSIVE thank you for having this interview because this is a huge insight to the armory system and see what the developers are intending to go for
Now for the contents that were discussed. I'm not a fan of how openly admitting they are of how much they understand that armory gives an edge above and beyond for players to the point where this is the actual intended use for armory
I'm also sad at how it was pretty much confirmed that we will never have a version of Supervive where everyone have all items at T1 unlocked because they wanted armory to be building blocks where they unlock things intentionally slow both to vets and new players
For the matchmaking, I think that they have some validity to it thinking that it works, but at the same time it's foolish to think that the matchmaking works. It's nearly impossible to balance matchmaking very well and I don't think that Supervive is anywhere close to being halfway close to the perfection of matchmaking
TC knows they're taking a huge swing. The amount of balls to do that is so huge that I have respect for it for them to be doing that. But at the same time if they're willing to do it, we have to respect them enough to call them out on what we, the playerbase thinks is bad and good. That includes for and/or against armory
I'm being very critical about these things because honestly to me Supervive is an amazing game it just have these insanely glaring flaws that are too hard to talk about. But for me the rest of the game is fun and so is the gameplay loop. Characters are unique enough, great playstyles, I could spend so much paragraphs and posts praising about how amazing the game is, but right now knowing that TC is more than actively listening to us and asking us despite all the negativity they faced about why we're still here and what they could improve on is great
I'm completely fine with voicing my complaints about these systems despite the rest of the game(80%) being amazing
grim relic
They will definitely have similar armory levels lol
Your delusion is to think just because theyre higher rank means they have better armory, it is more like theyre better than you at the game thus having higher rank while having similar armory. Similar delusions some LoL players have that they think they deserve higher rank and better teammates while having 1k games in the same rank and the reason they lose is because enemy team had better luck with teammates and godfather riot games put them in losers queue because theyre too good to have good teammates
fading shell
What I mean by that is you're generally WAY stronger in this game if you have hi...
Imo the main issue with the power gap is how much stronger specific items are as 2 or 3 stars, most items it's not even a huge stat bonus. But then we have some stuff like fucking red ga is on a base item that you can get every fucking game. And wtf os up with grapple? How is that ok? Most atuff is just stat changes, to where it can srill make a difference but it isn't necessarily unfair. But then some other stuff is just fucking stupid...
mellow bolt
Your delusion is to think just because theyre higher rank means they have better...
seriously?
mellow bolt
Do you think that in this game, someone who is a legend has a similar armory level to someone who is a bronze rank? really?
mellow bolt
Why do you think I am delusional then?
Would you bet your entire bankroll to compare the armory ranks of a random Legend player and a Bronze player?
grim relic
Have you understood what I have just said? MMR and lowish player count has an effect too obv, the armory level will still be quite similar. Dont forget legend players have been already playing since open beta and jumped straight into ranked most likely while bronze player was playing not ranked to get similar with the new system. Yes, I would bankroll to compare both armory and it will be somewhat similar
sacred meteor
It would be delusion to bet your entire bank on anything.
Anyway, this interview has absolutely ruined my belief that the TheoryCraft team are paying attention to their own game, which is a bit tragic.
But unsurprising.
mellow bolt
Have you understood what I have just said? MMR and lowish player count has an ef...
haha hahaha
sacred meteor
Completely unmitigated disaster fumble.
mellow bolt
I see I see
Well, I'll just tell you my experience. I don't have a single 3-star armory, but when I play ranked, the enemy team keeps popping out 3-star Vive Infusors. I'm gold rank 1, and my opponents are Master level, according to opgg.
mellow bolt
Completely unmitigated disaster fumble.
That's right. If I had known the problem from the beginning, I wouldn't have created this system.
sacred meteor
You wouldn't have?
sacred meteor
Well, I'll just tell you my experience. I don't have a single 3-star armory, but...
Roll better opponents. Luck correlates directly with skill.
mellow bolt
Roll better opponents. Luck correlates directly with skill.
I see. I need to work hard to raise my LCUK stats like Trpg. Please encourage me
fading shell
THIS CANNOT BE REAL HAHAHHA
At the very least on na the mm actually kind of works. Been seeing streamers mostly get actual good players as teammates.
For some reason eu isn't like that. Na mm is suspiciously better than eu mm
sacred meteor
I have tragically been forced to switch teams.
fading shell
Anyway, this interview has absolutely ruined my belief that the TheoryCraft team...
It's pretty easy to see that is the case with how much they refuse to balance certain stuff. I mean hunters and items
sacred meteor
Not necesarily.
Refusing to balance certain things doesn't necessitate that you aren't aware they are too strong.
In this case, however, yes, I believe it to be likely, considering the staggering obliviousness on display during this interview.
quaint bloom
The developer is straight up lying about average mmr players not having to face players with 3 star. All you gotta do is get to gold and then there are 3 star vive infusers everywhere
quaint bloom
Anyway, this interview has absolutely ruined my belief that the TheoryCraft team...
Yeah really out of touch how he acts like the servers are big enough to actually seperate players by mmr
This game is like those rise of kingdoms ads when noobs are fighting and somebody comes along like "haha I have 3 star vive infuser" and everyone is like "HOW?!" and then they explain how they sweat really hard for a week straight with a full squad
mellow bolt
This game is like those rise of kingdoms ads when noobs are fighting and somebod...
The number of 3-star armory they get is directly proportional to the screams of the massacred regular users lol
azure sluice
if higher ⭐ powers don't give you a competitive advantage, what exactly are people progressing to/for with the armory btw? 😃 😃 😃 😃 😃 😃
at that point why not just unlock them all? :))))))
quaint bloom
if higher ⭐ powers don't give you a competitive advantage, what exactly are peop...
It just takes way to long and its completely random, like Ive played 40 hours and still dont have BIS relic
So either you gotta get reallllly lucky or spend 100s of hours to get the 3 star u want
for me if you could just choose which ones you wanted to unlock more than the 3 in the daily shop id be happy
On top of that vive infuser 3 star is OP. Like obviously the best item by far.
These shivs at the end of every game with a at least 2 star vive infuser and resonance are ridiculous
azure sluice
"our matchmaking is fine"
(matchmaking couples together bronze/legend players)
"...the fights are fair"
TCG logic
quaint bloom
"our matchmaking is fine"
(matchmaking couples together bronze/legend players)
"...
Hard to believe he was even being honest when he was acting like thats not the case
azure sluice
Have you understood what I have just said? MMR and lowish player count has an ef...
If you recognize that playing more games grants you access to more prisma, giving you access to more of the armory...
Legend players have inherently played more than bronze players and therefore their armory's will not look remotely the same.
restive pollen
I dont even have to watch it to know its bullshit u only have to look at the naming of the sections
mellow bolt
If you recognize that playing more games grants you access to more prisma, givin...
And remember, the more wins you have, the more Prisma you'll earn. Naturally, a high-tier player is someone with a very high win rate. Naturally Naturally
restive pollen
WHolelotta nothing idc what tc wants and what tc thinks
End of the day whats there now simply sucks
But sure go circlejerk and be happily optimistic
when game could have been 10x better than it is right now
The armory was made to intentionally slow down player's mastery towards the game / “When you finish a match, like, what are the things you think about? … A lot of it has to be like, man, I just picked up the wrong items”
XD
like its so conflicting to even read this
Just ast predicted 0 reason to watch the video
just more of the same
fading shell
if higher ⭐ powers don't give you a competitive advantage, what exactly are peop...
There is a difference between an advantage and being literally unfair
blissful stirrup
Your delusion is to think just because theyre higher rank means they have better...
More games = better at the game(generally speaking) = more wins = get more prisma = get better armory
It's a snowball effect because you gain prisma based on ingame performance
azure sluice
There is a difference between an advantage and being literally unfair
Why are we okay with promoting an advantage from load screen btw?
You can't escape a certain situation because you haven't rolled enough imaginary points that allow you to unlock 2 stars on grapple, but np you're being chased by someone with 3 star grapple!
Small example of it being literally unfair - but that's not even my claim.
There's just no integrity in the system for fairness in the first place
fading shell
Why are we okay with promoting an advantage from load screen btw?
You can't esc...
Hrapple os one of those items I'm saying is literally unfair. And advantage but isn't unfair for example in the past was rolling soul steeler or armor shredder. People will dismiss that just cus everyone has the chance the get it, but just cus not everyone has the chance to get specific stuff doesn't mean it's just completely unfair. Other than specific cases where the items are simply too strong.
It's basically the same just masked differently. People will say it's fine cus it's in game but it is basically the same thing.
mellow bolt
Hrapple os one of those items I'm saying is *literally* unfair. And advantage bu...
Is there any reason to include "unfair" elements in a competitive game? Is it okay if it's not "completely" unfair? lol
heavy locust
Hrapple os one of those items I'm saying is *literally* unfair. And advantage bu...
not the same at all lol
if u have 3 stars grapple u gonna take it every single game (if it's good for your character)
fading shell
not the same at all lol
It is basically the same. Just cus you don't get it every game that doesn't make it any better. "Blink is fair cus you don't get it every game" but the games you do you're now op as shit, sounds different than the current system to me...
The only difference being you don't get it wvery game. But how in the fuck does that make it any better
fading shell
Is there any reason to include "unfair" elements in a competitive game? Is it ok...
It's not. I'm literally saying it isn't fine
fading shell
It is basically the same. Just cus you don't get it every game that doesn't make...
It simply makes the already broken as shit stuff, even more broken cus now you actually get it every game. But you coukd get multiple of the broken stuff before pretty much every game too.
azure sluice
Hrapple os one of those items I'm saying is *literally* unfair. And advantage bu...
At that point, you may as well argue that minion camps aren't fair either because one team can get exp from it and another can't - granting a level advantage early that severely shifts the scales in a fight
The argument is redundant
fading shell
Just realizing my examples were kinda shit
fading shell
At that point, you may as well argue that minion camps aren't fair either becaus...
That is quite literally what people are saying about the overall armory... certain stuff is broken and needs to be dealt with, but that isn't really the same as what so many people are saying.
azure sluice
Items/relics/grips/perks that players can consistently get, that have a tier difference to other people's unlocks (for the same price as other tiers - not that this is the point) versus a map wide objective that everyone can opt in to play for are not remotely the same thing at all.
azure sluice
That is quite literally what people are saying about the overall armory... certa...
Sorry this is confusing, some people are saying this and some people are saying the opposite?
I would agree there are definitely armoury items that need tuning
mellow bolt
It's not. I'm literally saying it isn't fine
Sorry, I misread the context. I apologize again.
wintry flint
In my case I expected armory to be more relevant but I don't think it changes enough how characters are played and there are not that craziness in builds I expected
You rarely feel broken
I expected to feel broken at some point
fading shell
Items/relics/grips/perks that players can _consistently_ get, that have a tier d...
The advantages are the same. That is my point. The advantages are only really super bug when the lobbies are massively unbalanced in star levels. Which then the game needs to make that not the case.
And btw, I would 100% prefer if everything was actually in game. People are imo, massively overreacting over the whole system.
fading shell
In my case I expected armory to be more relevant but I don't think it changes en...
Tbh only like 10 items at most are actually broken.
hot quail
mellow bolt
The advantages are the same. That is my point. The advantages are only really su...
I honestly think that even if everyone's star level average was similar, it would still be an unpleasant experience. Because my 3-star item and my opponent's 3-star item are completely different. Some people might use items that are overpowered in the meta, while others might use items that aren't that great. they'll try to balance things out, but I'm not sure. how can they balance all the items?
And most importantly, the armory system limits your item choices. Instead of offering a wide variety of options, it's the complete opposite. I want to play a tank hunter, but what if I get 3-star healer item? Even if I don't use it, the system will still treat me as having a 3-star item. What if that happens? The more I think about it, the more problems pile up. I can't find anything that isn't a problem with this system.
fading shell
Nidhogg has changed, trust
fading shell
And most importantly, the armory system limits your item choices. Instead of off...
The main issue is see with it is that there is jist no way to get the item your character woukd want. And afaik it has been said they are working on something to fix that. Which assuming it was possible but the gamba thing was just cheaper items, it'd be your fault if you just gambaed and didn't get what you needed.
fading shell
I honestly think that even if everyone's star level average was similar, it woul...
Tbh tc is jist pretty shit at balancing, been proved tome and time again. "How can they balance items", idk maybe listen to the community and nerf op shit for once.
mellow bolt
The main issue is see with it is that there is jist no way to get the item your ...
Yes, I'm frustrated that I can't get 3-star items because my enemies have them so often.
not a 1 star item
tawny peak
Tbh tc is jist pretty shit at balancing, been proved tome and time again. "How c...
"listen to the community"
people were complaining about grapple being too strong in beta and they now added an even stronger grapple xD
fading shell
"listen to the community"
people were complaining about grapple being too strong...
Yea, it's pretty crazy
They really didn't listen
azure sluice
The advantages are the same. That is my point. The advantages are only really su...
The advantages aren't the same though. Exotics are stronger than purchasable relics
I agree that difference in tiers should not be possible ingame though.
dusty sorrel
I really like the armory. I think it's a fun addition to the game. I like putting builds together that I can reliably attain. In classic TC fashion, a lot of the items are over the top and so balance is off the mark, but I'm still a fan and I look forward to future iterations.
fading shell
The advantages aren't the same though. Exotics are stronger than purchasable rel...
The difference between the items is about the same. I was not talking sbout the star effects
azure sluice
ok I'm not actually sure what your argument is anymore
fading shell
I don't we were ever arguing to began with honestly. The star effects are onky a huge difference on specific items that are massively overtuned. But then saying it's the system's fault for causing that is kinda bs.
heavy locust
That is quite literally what people are saying about the overall armory... certa...
lol bro idk
you're comparing equal conditions to out of game factors that depend on luck and grinding
cinder hearth
i feel like this summary has way too much interpolation and is often completely misrepresenting what the developer said
i would recommend just watching the video and taking this post with a grain of salt
certainly i still have a lot of problems with the armory despite watching the video, but it did help me understand the viewpoint of the developer a lot more
cinder hearth
That is quite literally what people are saying about the overall armory... certa...
i would like to note here that i dont think that they necessarily understood exactly how powerful some item upgrades are and i imagine a lot of them will get nerfed
i mean one of the most broken item builds in the game (idol/infusor shiv) only works with the one star version of resonating idol. if you have a 2 or 3 star idol, it bricks the build
i highly doubt that was intended
runic crescent
i mean one of the most broken item builds in the game (idol/infusor shiv) only w...
Why does 2 star idol brick the build?
cinder hearth
Why does 2 star idol brick the build?
no longer works with dash
the alternative is using sunweaver which is a good amount of damage, but with idol youre borderline unkillable without getting dunked
runic crescent
So you arent getting the cd refund anymore? I assumed that wouldnt work from the start, I thought dashes dont properly count as abilities because their cooldown doesn't get reduce by relics like isochrons timestaff that grant ability haste
cinder hearth
well ability haste an ability refund are two different things
but it does work with dash at 1 star
shiv can get away with it because shes pretty much the only character in the game where you can get away with using nothing but your dash
runic crescent
Still weird that dashes are abilities for idol but not for haste
weird wording in my opinion
fervent siren
no longer works with dash
bit of a fact check: It does still work with dash, but as soon as you use a different ability, it bugs and can no longer apply to your dash unless you unequip and reequip the idol
fervent siren
I think how it was supposed to work at level 2 was that it applies to either your rmb, q, or ult, and then dash just doesn't interrupt your stacks, not that it'd stack on your rmb, q, or ult, on top of stacking on your dash
so it's better for characters like Felix, so he can spam shield, and then he gets to use his dash without interrupting his shield amplifier stacks
if I understand it correctly
cinder hearth
yes
but it does work on dash at 1 star
which makes the 1 star version better for shiv
this seems very unintended though
which kind of feeds back into my original point
i dont think its particularly intended that certain relics have such large power spikes when upgraded
it seems more like normal balance issues+time constraints
i think one thing they could do is just make it so all relics have passive stats attached to them that get increased when upgraded rather than functionally changing when upgraded
it would just be a lot easier to balance that way and there wouldnt be so many builds effectively locked behind upgrading your relics
torpid tundra
This audio again where did this come from 😭
torpid tundra
"listen to the community"
people were complaining about grapple being too strong...
Yeah some of the community feedback, at least the good ones and the most echoed one seemed to get ignored a lot
Resurgence for example took months till they realized it didn’t belong in Ranked
rapid anvil
i think one thing they could do is just make it so all relics have passive stats...
i am a big proponent of this. i think it feels much better to be in a fight with someone being a star up on me when that means like 2% more primary damage instead of a whole new ability on the same item.
cinder hearth
i think from a business perspective it also makes sense because the whole feedback loop between theorycrafting and content creation, it feels bad for content creators when they want to showcase creative build ideas, but when those ideas are locked behind massive grinds at the beginning of a new season (when hype for new items is at its peak) theyre disincentivized from showcasing builds that utilize 3 star and 2 star items that most of their viewers cant access
it also creates weird issues for matchmaking balance vs competitive balance since it seems like scrims are settling on using 1 star items
heavy locust
i think from a business perspective it also makes sense because the whole feedba...
Yeah, items are surely better than before, core game is great at some parts, idea that player can grind something besides rank is also good... BUT it shouldn't create situation where players are guaranteed to become stronger for gaining items from the Armory. There should be something that can prevent it
dusty sorrel
i am a big proponent of this. i think it feels much better to be in a fight wit...
I agree strongly with this. I think the armory would be great if the difference between star levels was quite small and also filling out your armory with rank 1 items was reliable and fairly easy to do.
heavy locust
I agree strongly with this. I think the armory would be great if the difference ...
Then what would be the point of that system?
dusty sorrel
wdym?
heavy locust
wdym?
You want to make it less grindy and make it so lvl off the item wont make a big difference, right?
It completely goes against the intentions of the Prisma and Armory itself
dusty sorrel
I dont think so. The main complaint I'm seeing is that there is a power gap between item ranks that makes the game feel unfair. Squid has been brought up a lot. The rank 2 and 3 upgrades are incredibly powerful. It cant really be quantified, but I think it's fair to say a rank 3 squid is twice as good as a rank 1 squid. What if rank 1 was, say, 80% as good? rank 2 90%? I know everyone who likes the game would grind and be excited to get an upgrade but it would mitigate this feeling of being outclassed because rng outside of the game.
heavy locust
I dont think so. The main complaint I'm seeing is that there is a power gap betw...
So why do you think TC won't make it less different? They want to make people feel the power of the item that player got from the lootbox
dusty sorrel
That's a lot of assumptions, unless theyve explicitly stated they wont change it and the reason is they want the elicit a certain feeling from lootboxes. I think it's absolutely possible they change it... in future versions of the armory, anyways.
torpid tundra
That's a lot of assumptions, unless theyve explicitly stated they wont change it...
They did touch on what they believe is about the existence of armory which is talking about how Armory are building blocks and they wanted players to slowly unlock it
[25:59] The armory is the promise that was made for the original game, Project Loki
The developer said that the armory is taking back what Project Loki was all about which was the creative freedom of building items and then abusing that said item that nobody else has found until they(TC) themselves nerf it to the ground
[24:50] "The version where everyone gets it(armory) unlocked is way too much"
[34:40] Armory IS Gacha and Armory is building blocks
TC wants players to cultivate and see and make players think, that if they have item A,B and C they'd go dominate other players and see it as a fun thing and be more flexible with a limited item set
[45:28] "Let's say we launched and gave players tools enough... I feel like we're in a better place today after the hotfix"
which is indirectly correct to what Limbo is saying about how they want to make people feel the power of the item that the player got from the gacha
spare owl
That's a lot of assumptions, unless theyve explicitly stated they wont change it...
In fact, changes must be made. First of all, the Armory is absolutely meaningful in in-game play, as it allows for different combinations of equipment to create varied gameplay styles.
However, there is still room for optimization. Here are my suggestions:
1.Add an out-of-match unlocking method for the Armory, allowing players to selectively unlock the equipment they want.
2.Regarding star-level unlocking, in addition to golden and red equipment, players should also be able to selectively unlock up to three stars.
3.In-game, players can upgrade equipment from one star to three stars using in-game gold or Prisms.
4.Teammates within a certain range of the in-game store can share the Armory store and pool their gold.
5.On the social front, players should be able to gift each other equipment from the Armory.
While these suggestions may reduce the joy of opening crates and might lead to completing all Armory content faster, they would prevent the feeling of unfairness. Based on my understanding of the game, around the fifth or sixth day of playing, players tend to focus more on how to 搭配 equipment. Another point is that this game gives off the vibe of an extraction game, but in extraction games, the issue of equipment fairness doesn’t exist because your gear can be lost (on death).
frigid ginkgo
The armory is simply broken from a game design perspective, due to the unique design of each hunter.
Each hunter, before Armory / 1.0 had clear win conditions and failure conditions
ex:
Each hunter's design is so radically different, even a minute change in how they play results in messy, frustrating engagements
Now:
List goes on. Even worse is you'll never be able to identify exactly what your enemy is running before they're right on top of you, traditional MOBA fights take minutes, Supervive fights take seconds
And the very idea of grindy meta progression in a competitive game is insane.
Conclusion: The dev who designed the armory did so without thinking about every other mechanic in Supervive.
If this was a slower, more methodical, traditional moba with generic heroes, the armory would be a success. The problem is that Supervive is hardly a MOBA - I'd argue it to be closer to a hero / arena shooter played in teams
small sage
And the very idea of grindy meta progression in a competitive game is insane.
"We weren't meeting the promises that the original game made" the original promise for the game was a 10k hour competitive game, yet now they've removed the "competitive" tag from the game completely 😂
frigid ginkgo
That as well. They say that their open-beta players are entitled.
I'd like to ask, entitled to what?
The promise made, the unspoken contract was a release ready version of all the tuning and feedback that went into the Open Beta
in exchange for our playtime
and future support for this game
something has gone very wrong at theorycraft studios
rancid anvil
I would love to see the screenshot of silver being top 7% of the playerbase
rancid anvil
So gold is high elo then...
torpid tundra
That as well. They say that their open-beta players are entitled.
just an addendum for better clarification if the section of the statement is formatted like this: "KN [XX:XX]"
that means that it was King Nidhogg who said it (check Legend here for better clarification on formatting #1402169717312978994 message), I simply added his own quotes too as a way to provide a context to the previous note point
This specific quote is a response to the dev about how open beta players some of them like the stability of picking the same items every game
And yes it was him who said this thing
torpid tundra
Now:
- Shiv will murder you from any distance, and is more or less immortal if e...
I think Void now is like 10x more insufferable to play against. The LSHIFT technique on illegal terrain with slow falling along with the Squid item makes him just really stupid to play against
real topaz
if the point was to not overwhelm new players with so many items to choose, why just not... only show the hunter's recommended items to newbies unless you go to the armoury and bookmark the items you want for your builds
maybe just keep the prisma for upgrades, that should cost a fixed amount of currency and you can choose what to upgrade
simply delete the gacha
i'm okay with slow (and no game-breaking) account progression — like league have/had with runes
but lock it behind RNG is a bit stupid
keen fern
Gacha allows for artificial grind. This way they deliver on the promise of a 10 000hour game
real topaz
Gacha allows for artificial grind. This way they deliver on the promise of a 10 ...
well that's just evil
torpid tundra
League does a great way on lessening the dump of information towards players which is to separate the actual main shop where every item is visible and then there's the recommended tab in-game
you only see at max 2 item when game starts, and then after a while you see 1-3 items that is catered to your character
keen fern
If a new player wants to interact with the items they can go on the other page with everything on show
In league
torpid tundra
mhmm
real topaz
League does a great way on lessening the dump of information towards players whi...
exactly! just show newbies less items and add an option to see everything, like we already have to separe the bookmark items from all the armory
it was as simple as that
dota 2 have also a similar system (not sure how it's now, i stopped playing many years ago)
but you had a recommened build for each character and you can simply follow that
spare owl
The armory will eventually be fully open to new players.
real topaz
you don't have to see the entire shop, just the build you were going for
it also had community builds that were very cool
i think armory should be only for upgrades, not for unlocking the items
torpid tundra
The armory will eventually be fully open to new players.
how? by playing a lot of games?
Or are you talking about them giving everyone T1 of every item for free
spare owl
how? by playing a lot of games?
Or are you talking about them giving everyone T...
First of all, this is a battle royale competitive game. Due to the out-of-match progression enabled by the armory, it has become less fair. However, if the debate over such fairness and unfairness is to stop, all items in the armory must be made available. The progression from Level 1 to Level 3 can be achieved within the in-game matches. Because nowadays, there are far more game options available, unlike in the past with League of Legends, when there weren't as many games to play. Many competitive games nowadays include casual modes that can be played solo.
torpid tundra
I get where you're coming from, but sorry I still don't understand what you mean by it(armory) being eventually be fully open to new players
Because asking new players to play hours upon hours of games seems for items that they want/need sounds unreasonable
keen fern
They should make it so you gotta gacha rng roll for items in league
Sounds like a lovely system to ensure competitive integrity
spare owl
However, there are other ways to keep new players more engaged in the game. That said, using an unlock mechanism for in-game equipment to increase players' playtime is not advisable in competitive games. I have reason to believe that the TC team is working on more important things, which is also the main reason why the 1.0 version is the way it is.
keen fern
However, there are other ways to keep new players more engaged in the game. That...
We would all like to believe that
cinder garnet
Hello, I would like to share some (possibly not original) ideas to improve the armory experience, but more so about the armory reset.
The armory could benefit from improvements to the unlock process, maybe in a form of the player having the option to choose one item from three options per capsule and/or adding some catchup mechanics so players could at least unlock all 1 star items by the time we hit mid-season.
For the armory reset, what if Supervive goes with a Path of Exile-like approach for seasonal resets or a rotation system similar to a card game?
Let's have two game modes: Standard and Seasonal (the names are not relevant)
For Standard, your armory unlocks are still intact and you'll be able to unlock whatever you're missing via a shop with all items, except for the current season's. For the Seasonal game mode, you need to unlock all new items (those items will also unlock to the Standard game mode).
Standard will not be balanced, of course, and it should not be the goal, it would provide a chaotic and (hopefully) fun experience for casuals and theory-crafters.
Pardon for the wall of text. I wrote this because I know a lot of players are talking about removing the system as a whole, where it could probably benefit from tons of QoL.
torpid tundra
Sounds great on paper but as of right now it can't happen. This game used to have Squads and Duos and those were gutted and Arena as a game mode is pretty much nearly abandoned. They are gutting separate queues and adding a separate queue will already make matchmaking pretty bad considering it's normal to have 15 min queue times
I'm not even that good at this game only around silver because I'm not playing ranked, but my queue times are pretty rough at 5~10 and 15+ isn't unheard of
and there's also cases like this
TL;DR - having multiple queues isn't that great
cinder garnet
I understand the queue problem. Even if I don't play ranked, I've seen plenty of streamers in those scenarios.
In an ideal world there would be enough of a player base to sustain different game modes.
torpid tundra
[19:30] "The answer to all these pain points is usually like get more players from a design point of view"
Pretty much
cinder garnet
You think armory reset is a necessary evil so item bloat does not happen? The game would become a balance nightmare if they keep adding items like crazy.
I'm all about adding more ways to play and not necessarily about numbers going up.
Even if I'm in the minority, the reset does not bother me. But I can see how it would affect people's enjoyment.
real topaz
ranked mode in this game is made honestly so bad — first of all, we can't afford to have two queues for ranked and non ranked. everything should be ranked since the first match, but with some tweaks.
made it in a way that in low ranks, you don't need the ante points to enter. so you can't lose points, just earn them. newbies will feel they're progressing, slowly or faster, but progressing while learning the game.
at some point, you introduce the ante method. like some kind of "legend" league. if you've grinded enough points to get to that league, you're already an experienced player so you'll be okay with that.
said this many times: Supercell nailed this method in Clash Royale and overall still works very well.
viscid monolith
Your delusion is to think just because theyre higher rank means they have better...
dawg this makes no sense
you hit legend because you win x-amount of games, and because of the ante structure you have to be capable of killing most people in the lobby
especially legend in the early season where games are technically the most competitive
they restructured the prisma system to favor elims more, which means people that tend to kill the most people in the lobby also get more significant prisma gains, which is more armory pulls
and I think it should be obvious why getting more prisma leads to a stronger armory on average
on the other hand a large majority of bronze players are people new to supervive that just start queueing ranked cuz it's a defaultable gamemode
there will be some people that spammed norms and end up having a stronger armory but I think it's reasonable to assume those are not the majority
cinder hearth
you have to be lvl 20 to queue ranked
knotty aspen
League does a great way on lessening the dump of information towards players whi...
I think League is a very bad example of explaining item systems to new players. Even with that page you're getting new players to spend minutes at a time reading item descriptions, trying to figure out what the stats mean, what the actives do, etc.
Something similar to armory with less gacha (maybe old CoD style account levelling for unlocks?) would be a SIGNIFICANT upgrade over their current implementation.
League historically has had the worst new player onboarding experience of any major game. It does not teach you anything useful.
vagrant notch
Dam, if the devs are really dead set on keeping this system I honestly think I won't be playing. Wish them the best though
torpid tundra
I think League is a very bad example of explaining item systems to new players. ...
I feel like I'm doing a lot more reading this season than during the open beta and the shop has gotten worse with readability. I still don't understand what the devs are talking about reading more in-game when most of the things during open beta equipment system are just stat checks for items. I find myself reading more in the shop during this season simply because I don't know what to use when trying out something new. If I take too long I just take burning hands and dash haste gloves and call it a day
League has gotten better over the years. Nonetheless think you're right. It would still be great if they implemented something (if they're gonna keep armory) like League's did
tender moss
If someone is low armory
naturally they will loot Vaults and Chests and Deathboxes for items
So they will still often end up standing and reading
When you are high armory
You probably read the items a bunch already to have them roughly memorized (putting the card in the player's face each time they open a capsule is a surprisingly good way to reinforce memorization)
So you are either standing around thinking (adapting your build to the situation and theorycrafting, the ideal situation) or you just jam the Best in Slot items every match (flattening the Battle Royale variance)
Adding and rotating items on a seasonal basis is a pretty cool idea, but it also puts experienced players in a position to read a lot more bc a lot of what they memorized is retired
So there may be a bit of reading reduction but it ends up on the same curve of new players (who are very important) reading a bunch and old players reading nothing (which is common to other games with building options)
torpid tundra
Yeah you have a great point there. I didn't even think about that
When you're low armory and you beat a person who has items, you stop and read what their item does. Later on when you beat another team and try to loot their item, as a new player these items are not simply stat sticks or whatever, these items can have abilities and game changing unique passives
You're forced to stop and read to think if it's good for you or not. There is some reading reduction with your OWN armory, but the moment that you see something unfamiliar in a BR game which you will if you haven't discovered it/didn't remember the armory from heart that resets every season, it's even MORE reading
south kettle
interesting
old edge
interesting
fading shell
Anyone know the name of the person? I wanna check smth
south kettle
careful vulture last time a dude asked that he got banned
fading shell
I swear I saw a red notification here hmmmmmm
wide badger
I think TC is def not done iterating on the Armory concept. But, let's hope they have enough time to smooth it out. My personal painful anecdote; the VERY LAST perk I unlocked was Dash Engine. It felt awful opening capsules waiting for Perks to drop and instead getting 3/5 Painkiller Charm.
Why not have the capsules default to giving you items that aren't unlocked yet BEFORE leveling up existing items? Or higher chance to roll perks?
Some other suggestions;
-Give a choice of 3 items upon opening capsules, so you can nudge a specific build in the right direction.
-Have separate capsules for Grips/Perks/Boots/Relics to increase the odds of rolling things you want or need.
Idk, just find some way to make the Armory more interactive and give players more agency over their decisions outside of game, so that they have access to more In-Game and sooner. I think it'll also help newer players feel comfortable with "progressing" the way they want to.
vagrant notch
Aren't they like out of time already? Game is averaging 2k players and declining. And it's gonna lose a big chunk when the season resets and people lose armory
keen fern
Nah armory clearly saved the game and people will stay for the grind
torpid tundra
It's been confirmed that we're gonna have a new devlog in the next couple of hours and it's gonna be addressing armory and huge changes apparently #💬│supervive message here's the link to the statement
I'm interested to see if they're gonna change their minds on armory since this interview said otherwise, specifically interested in what they'll do to armory, will they give everyone T1 or not
