"Armory is good and will bring more people to the game"

[stable bobcat]

dont you want armory without rng?

[fiery topaz]

the issue with rng is that its layers of amplification as to why its such a prominent yet hard to really solve issue where both sides are pulling to it being more rng or less rng

the balance isnt and wont be achieved cos the layers arent understood

thats the issue

[stable bobcat]

no I am not pulling it to anywhere, for me the system is perfect, I do understand it has to be tweaked so more ppl enjoy it

even if it means I would enjoy it a bit less

[fiery topaz]

im not saying u are

[narrow skiff]

Perfect is crazy talk

[fiery topaz]

just in general

[stable bobcat]

I love it, for me, as a subjetive opinion

[fiery topaz]

ye thats fine

[stable bobcat]

Its fine that you guys dont, so lets bring it to a middle point

[fiery topaz]

Again middle point i could see if there werent layers stacking the rng to the point where i dont even wanna bother

[stable bobcat]

I do thnk you would have a better experince with it if you had a not so bad pathing to follow without rng

and only using the "extra" rng gained from missions or codes

but they could give you the chance of ignore the rng, without a hard punishment for not doing it

[fiery topaz]

well

optimal pathing in supervive without rng influence is like mission impossible almost

but its worse than mission impossible

it goes beyond it

si its not like

u can quickly compensate

by considering both sides

or we

u wont cause a dent

even if the purpose is to do so

layers of amplification

layers of conflicting decisions dev wise

i dont wanna wrote more its bit sad

[stable bobcat]

wdym its impossible

leggo item 6k discounted shop 8k on full undiscounted shop always available, you can target it going directly for it

you just ignored the rng

and bought the item you wanted

rest of players can have fun with their capsules

and waiting their desired item to appear discounted

[fiery topaz]

not good enough sorry

[cinder marlin]

This is not exclusively why and I’m sure you are aware

[fiery topaz]

right direction

not enough

im speaking for many ppl with this btw

[cinder marlin]

I don’t think it matters much to argue whether or not it’s the right call or not in general though - time will tell in the end

[lucid flame]

Its pretty bad faith argument to say China is doing bad because of the armory

And if they had it they would do better

[cinder marlin]

yes, it is extremely bad faith

[fiery topaz]

im on this discord still huffing copium the game will break free from jts exodia chains

[cinder marlin]

But I don’t think there’s much point engaging w/ sykii on this topic

in prior threads he’s argued against himself within 5 minutes

[narrow skiff]

Are you guys having fun with the progression of obtaining stuff? I still don't understand why armory should reset after a season, this is not an arpg or extraction shooter with an economy

[fiery topaz]

sykii is just positive/optimistic

hes not full unreasonable

i cn respect him

[narrow skiff]

I like having something to unlock and grind for that makes losses feel less bad, but I don't see myself being drawn to farming my armory over and over again

[cinder marlin]

no interest in playing for most part

tried it a bit it’s not fun enough to warrant the system

[normal terrace]

i think something to grind for is awesome the problem is when old “pro” players farm it u will just get stomped even harder

[cinder marlin]

plenty of ways to break the game too that players haven’t really explored yet t

[fiery topaz]

instead of game being better they will make the sytem less bad

[normal terrace]

making new players feel bad and not wanna keep playing which means they won’t grind to catch up

[fiery topaz]

watch it XDDDD

i cn alrdy predict their patches

[normal terrace]

less bad is in fact better but i do get the point

[stable bobcat]

I do say the info I gather from an official source

[fiery topaz]

o mentally ill

[stable bobcat]

I dont care what a random chinese player will come and say

its like if limbo went to chinese discord and say game is failing here due to armory

if they belive him is fine idk

I wont believe a random cn player

[fiery topaz]

lol

[stable bobcat]

if the game has this reaction on west, some players on cn will also have

you can choose to believe biased cn players

or just read what an official source will say

[cinder marlin]

I think that is an interesting worldview to have

[stable bobcat]

what would say any of the veterans with 0.3 1.0 play time that left a negative review to the cn players? tht the system is good?

you really think, believing biased opinions is correct

?

[cinder marlin]

I am not making any statements about what people may or may not have said 🙂

[stable bobcat]

I do not mean info from china

[cinder marlin]

Also idk what you are saying here genuinely - the phrasing here is confusing

And I can only speak for myself - I played a few hours and it did not feel like a worthwhile use of my time or an enjoyable gameplay experience by that point (going into it pretty optimistically)

Review bombing 🤨🫵

[stable bobcat]

I reviewed it because I saaw negative review bombing ye, also on the counting I did I did not count my extra review for obv reasons

I normally never review on steam

[shrewd skiff]

lol

[stable bobcat]

If I see a war I will participate

u wouldnt?

[shrewd skiff]

a war

he says

[muted wagon]

I think its a grey area between "review bombing because you don't like the idea of the game" and "negative review because you don't like the game"
People will never change their minds on this so I think its more useful to actually analyze the Armory, our own gameplay experiences, and retention

[stable bobcat]

I perceive it as that, instead of constructive criticism neg reviews are filled with p2w false claims and bad faith ones

[versed stream]

Another thing someone has come up with is a disenchant system similar to hearthstone

where prisma is used for crafting but maybe the rates or higher, or the weekly shop offers discounted items

[stable bobcat]

its fine you can report my extra review, as I am reporting every negative review that spreads miss information or didnt play 1.0 at all

it wont change much in the big scheme

I am not doing a public call to massively positive review the game, ppl were doing for negative reviews

I tried to help as I saw it unfair 😄

[cinder marlin]

I don’t really see any review bombing on the page

[muted wagon]

this convo isnt fruitful

[cinder marlin]

it is not!

idk I just don’t like how armory and most of the changes feel like they treat me as if I were lobotomized or something

[stable bobcat]

also, today, finally, positive reviews already starting to win vs negatives

[cinder marlin]

feels like it’s basically intended for lower skill play to be enjoyable

that’s just personal feelings

[stable bobcat]

veterans ending to finishing review the game, most positives are still newcomers, is a supposition, I will check positive reviews and categorize them now, its a great hobby on my job

I will be back on 1h after checking them all

[muted wagon]

To me its like
I have a few items that are generally good and a few that are situational
I just buy the general items every match
So now there is less BR randomness/adapting on the fly

[cinder marlin]

• really not player friendly? idk it feels like it does not respect time nor skill

and that is just not it for me

[muted wagon]

At least until I have a big enough collection to make more meaningful choices

[cinder marlin]

yeah basically something like this

which is fine - it's ok if it is not for me

[sage isle]

everyone is sleeping at 4am

your screenshots means nothing

also, the feedback for the Armory system is overwhelmingly negative among Chinese community

the situation would be even worse if supervivecn dare to launch it

[sage isle]

and I am one of the biggest Supervive steamer in China

[slender girder]

The new items are a huge improvement compared to the old one. First like 10 games with the armory are exciting and fun, then fun jumps off a cliff when you run out of missions and fast chest unlocks and realize that you get like 200 prisma per game average

Some hunters are almost unplayable or don't get some ridiculous power spikes without some specific relics and some relics are straight up troll picks

[stable bobcat]

also there are veteran players hidden on the new players one but its w.e, is still overwhelming

more than half of the neg reviews are from veterans, most of the veterans didnt even try to play the 1.0

[cinder marlin]

you do not need to justify why he is wrong

lol

[stable bobcat]

I am not talking about the content of the reviews

just signaling the obvious, most new ppl do enjoy the game and this update is for them, not for us

I can get a lot of useless reviews, on both sides

but since ppl didnt like me categorizing reviews as useful or not

now I do only count veteran or new

which is also a good way of viewing

[cinder marlin]

I expect players that have not experienced game previously have no point of reference so yeah—would likely be more positive comparatively

contrast this with previous 90% positive review rate

[stable bobcat]

was it useful?

I do agree steam reviews are useless

[cinder marlin]

idk man I’m not really pulling insights here

[stable bobcat]

we dont need to argue about it, steam reviews sucks they do not really work for telling if a game is good or bad

[cinder marlin]

i wouldn’t say that personally - i think it doesn’t indicate if a game will be commercially successful, yeah

[stable bobcat]

we are seeking comercial success here

[cinder marlin]

if this model is retentive then it’s fine i guess

[stable bobcat]

otherwise game has to close

[acoustic mica]

rate my review kings

[stable bobcat]

since day 1 I am saying that this sytem indeed compromises a bit the competitive integrity of the game (also does the no soloq/stack q separation, but that debate is long forgotten, also solo experience is good now)

but what the system needs to show is if the competitivity compromise is worth it to the player retention

[stable bobcat]

I am not rating review content, also your review is more than fine

[onyx locust]

Steam Reviews again, taps the sign

[lucid flame]

I dont really care who its for

I think its bad

[acoustic mica]

So premades were farming and killing each other to bypass and speed up the armory system and now say they'll just go back to killing new players in unranked

[versed stream]

the former was started as an idea to avoid killing new players but

looks like farming new players is still within reason

[onyx locust]

peak system

[quick karma]

Shrike is OP when there's no movement items even available for purchase T-T

And eveyone seems to move slower so it's easier for Shrike and Shiv to just rip teams apart. It's GG if there's open space with a shrike in it which is insane because before it wasn't this bad lol you could mind game a bad Shrike with WASD movement or burn short-ish CD dashes to avoid the shot

You can't WASD shrike anymore it's just GG if she sees you lmfao

[dull kelp]

even if it doesn't matter it's a system that shouldn't exist

[craggy vale]

lmao unless you're playing a mobile hunter, then she just folds

[stark panther]

pretty interesting write up here https://www.reddit.com/r/supervive/comments/1ma71po/the_problem_with_prisma_and_how_to_maximise_gains/

[stable bobcat]

mmr was adjusted to prevent this

LALALALALALALA was getting 10min unranked queues now

[stark panther]

damn it is kinda cool that the meta game is having such a hard impact on the actual game to the detriment of player's fun and ability to engage with the in game mechanics

[stable bobcat]

The main issue on that reddit post is that it shouldn't happen

Is fun to blame prisma first to that and not myschmaking

Nobody should have a 25 win game streak on a battleroyale, it shows clear mm issues

Game should try harder to give you a decent match, according to your skill

And it was done it seems, atleast to improve it a bit probably some issue is still going on with unbalanced matches.

In my books, game should not be changed to worse for an issue 1% players is creating. Those players should have longer q times

[stark panther]

you are right i am certain it has nothing to do with the meta game incenting this action that is leading players to take it.

i am also certain that if the meta game incenting this behavior becomes the best outcome that other players that are not in the 1% will catch on and start executing elements of it.

[viscid mural]

Please give us longer queue times. My queues were popping every 2-5mins today and even though they were mostly fine there were still new player stragglers getting into those lobbies whiich should NEVER happen. MM has to be stricter

[slender girder]

if they want to make prisma and extraction a core aspect of gameplay make it be "RP"

remove entry cost for ranked and you buy weapons and stuff with "rp"

extraction is a "save point" for your rp so far and yeah either that or remove that thing

[stable bobcat]

I mean that sounds cool, but is very hard to implement and balance like way harder

[stable bobcat]

Yeah I agree some elements of it will be executed , is not as worrying as it could sound.

Just as RP changes have changed ranked Meta through time , prisma extraction and earning prisma is something that exists to look for something extra than just winning in the game, as long as the game you are playing is hard enough, I don't think trying to maximize prisma is wrong

[stable bobcat]

Yep they do, a veteran doesn't have to stomp new players, ever

Specially the gm+ ones, they should be stuck with shark tank queue

It is what it is, just bring sharkntank strict queue back

And let normal players have fun

That's my take

[viscid mural]

Like I know that mm takes into account both hidden mmr and visible rank but... Us beta players should probably have just started at a higher rank so the mm could function a little better.

[acoustic mica]

https://www.reddit.com/r/supervive/comments/1macc5r/how_can_this_be_the_finished_product/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

he’s right

valid crash out

[tawny swallow]

https://discord.com/channels/852642429105995786/1398902896216768612 I've come up with this idea to fix the shit

[keen spruce]

I made the post and I agree to an extent - normals always include some high and low elo players - but the problem is that Prisma farming is legit 4-5x stronger in unranked, which is why I suggested making ranked at least 2x more gains to compensate

[tawny swallow]

then casuals gonna be pissed that they need to play ranked to get more prisma

[stable bobcat]

More than 2x on ranked, is halving unranked if you want

System is tailored so the 3 stars items are not common

I think is obivous

Cheating the system (or just playing the game and taking advantage of the bad matchmaking) breaks it a bit

But I do think the real solution is a shark tank strict queue

Atleast right now

Just bring every top MMR together as they did on next fest/ July 2024 patch

[sinful iris]

players will do whatever the most efficient strategy to get prisma though. Thats always gonna happen no matter the changes for the most part. Also making players who are just really good at the game have to wait 20 minutes in queue is kinda dumb no?

[keen spruce]

I think normals should give 2x what they give rn and ranked should give 4x

They just made it too grindy to max out

[stable bobcat]

No it's not

[keen spruce]

In cod you can max out a weapon by using it pretty fast

And you just don’t max out the ones you don’t want

[stable bobcat]

Every game makes top 0.1% wait for a game

Normally that forces smurfing

On supervive smurfing wouldn't be such a big problem

As you don't have progression, not that much

So it evens out

[sinful iris]

Yes and in those games even right now people constantly try to give solutions because its not a good experience

[stable bobcat]

Yes but you can't do anything else than putting 20 min queues

[sinful iris]

league streamers that don't smurf will stream for 7 hours and more then half is in queue

[stable bobcat]

Nobody has fun playing vs better ppl

Do you think máster players playing vs challengers have fun in league?

Because no I don't like to play vs bwipo when I am a low máster

Like yeah maybe I can learn, but fun? Nah I don't have fun

I will lose the game most probably

[sinful iris]

I mean true but one of the most fun parts of a community is being able to watch content creators or streamers which are often the highest rank and having people to watch and enjoy really helps people stay playing the game. How many league players randomly watch a stream/pros and then decide that looks fun and want to play again. I think thats important. If the experience for high level players who stream and put the most energy and time into the game and are basically representatives of the community/game to outsiders have a miserable experience and wait in queue all day that is not a net positive no?

i guess it depends

[woven thunder]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1253842854153814026/1397838615337238629/rich_bnuuy.gif

1 rich bnu of 1 rich bnu

[stable bobcat]

Yeah I totally agree, is one of the reasons on why I advocated so hard for soloq. I really think soloq improves that feeling of watching good players you mean

Issue is that does not exist right now, and didn't exist back on open beta supervive, new players want to have fun and experiment the game, the game is just too new to ppl to be bothered to go watch lemur or tom kick climb ranked .

Hence why, it's important that make the experience of casual/new players as good as possible even if it means better players have a worse experience in matchmaking for some time

[muted wagon]

this isn't the case because armory items make no difference in the match tho right
so the smurf just goomba stomps the lobby shirtless anyway because the items don't matter

[woven thunder]

I was joined to supervive by streamer but i joined even before evolution higher lvl cap and that

[stable bobcat]

Nah but smurfing will be boring because you won't have items unlocked 🙂 which is good

[woven thunder]

When they make level cap higher that was interesting

[stable bobcat]

Just as smurfing years ago on league was a pain in the ass due to farming runes

[woven thunder]

When they added evolution that was cool

But when they now added armory

[muted wagon]

But the game is just as fun without items because the smurf can just kill people and pick up their stuff

[woven thunder]

https://tenor.com/view/angry-bunny-bunny-silly-bunny-bunny-fighting-bunny-punching-gif-10092930613717694024

[sinful iris]

I mean also I didn't even mention this yet but the creators obviously value content creators and streamers heavily as they've used high level league players as their primary people to sponsor. tom kick is in the client. If they mainly advertise the game through the streamers and high level players them enjoying the game is kind of relevant to people getting into the game. It feels kind of contradictory to me to say they are trying to get people into the game who don't even watch streams yet all their marketing is directly through streamers and pro players of league/other games.

[stable bobcat]

Game sucks if you don't play for progression that is why open beta supervive died, so resetting your progress on your own before the seasonal reset seems boring af

[woven thunder]

Anyway its hard to recognise pow... Relics now? Or its just me?

[woven thunder]

What progression nust be in Competitive Moba Battle royale?

Isn't progression here must be ur skill?

[muted wagon]

resetting your progress means you can progress all over again
Its a fun challenge
thats why season reset is a thing

If anything Smurfing should actually be goated

it allows you to interact with the Armory even more than usual

[woven thunder]

Why dota or leage that not have this progression and all this
Still dont died?

Why their progression is only ur skill and ranked pts?

Cs go

There is progress is ur akill too

This game is not rogue like
This game is not mmo rpg
This is not PvE
This is competitive PvP

Competitive means players must be in same situation

And only their skill and team work should give them impact in matches

If devs add lootbox and tons of skins for them that would be better

[sinful iris]

Yeah not saying its necessarily wrong but it feels like they marketing to league players which are more on the competitive side while the systems in game feel something gacha gamers/card gamers/pve focused gamers like way more and are in those types of games. Also arpgs but that again is a pve mainly game. These grindy systems are enjoyed in pve games because you go in knowing the type of experience you will get and people enjoy that. Myself included. I play a bunch of of all of these types of rng games and love them. I also play league of legends. But im looking for different types of experiences playing these different types of games. We will see I guess.

[woven thunder]

Pve is part of moba gameplay and pve is just way to comeback in hard game for carry

Usualy in moba main goal is destroy enemy base
Ancient/whatever that called in lol

Creeps in jungle usualy just safe farm for heros that cant fight without artifacts

But here farming creeps is optional
Main goal is KILL all enemy teams

In match i have a lot of money

Cuz guess what

I have no items to spend gold on it

Cuz

I got only 2 green guntlet in shop

And i hat tons of gold

So i just could not use beacon and whole game buy mvp when needed

[muted wagon]

This is from the wintrading thread, I didn’t want to derail that discussion. Cheaters can always be dealt with, but all it takes is to step away from the game for a month or start late in the season to get this sort of feeling

Right now pretty much everyone started playing at the same time and is keeping up with each other but in the 3 or so weeks before the end of a season the game might end up feeling inhospitable to new players who play against bronzies with full collections

This creates a very good reason to keep the season resets, but those are highly feelsbad to the players jamming games to keep up with the crowd

[slender girder]

not only are they not banned they get to keep their stuff?

[tawny swallow]

Armory reseted for them

[slender girder]

it says that some got to keep the prisma they farmed

[muted wagon]

Some people are farming Prisma using more “legitimate” means like this

https://www.reddit.com/r/supervive/s/N2UBISnT9w

[slender girder]

yeah saw that too

[keen spruce]

I wrote this post - the funny thing is wintrading gets you about 2/3rd of the way I outlined does

Because only one team can win and get the multiplier

So it’s actually much more effective to just 3 stack and ruin the game for noobs in terms of prisma per match

[sinful iris]

this honestly is 1000x worse then the wintrading......... in terms of harming the game for new players while if high rank players wintrading they will really only face each other in ranked

💔 hope this gets fixed soon

[keen spruce]

Yep I agree it’s bad!

System design needs to account for min maxing from high elo players

[stable bobcat]

positive keep growing as veterans that dislike the system end leaving their reviews

[scenic thunder]

as a game dev, I must say release week is very important on steam for reviews and review bombing a game on release is bad. I've said this on another channel before but if people care about this game at all, they shouldn't use reviews for feedback. at least not for now. it should be fine after 1-2 weeks.

[slender girder]

it's also bad to release a barely tested hail mary change to the game

[scenic thunder]

they can always fix the game, but they can't fix steam's algorithm. be reasonable.

[slender girder]

they can postpone the release

[scenic thunder]

it's more complicated than that

[slender girder]

first impressions are more important than fixing the game later

[scenic thunder]

ok, well fuck me for trying to convince anyone, I'm out bye

[narrow skiff]

Don't use reviews to review the game guys

[viscid mural]

It's easy to say this from an outside perspective. But the truth of the matter is that we don't have enough information on the goings-on behind the scenes to say this for certain

[simple idol]

A game dev says to not review a game honestly and its okay to release a game with a poor system and fix it later? Wild

[stable bobcat]

and this refers to my take on reddit why I wont comment much more on this discord until extreme negativity and doompost is addressed.

Criticism is fine, but being completely irrational helps no one.

The moderators are turning a blind eye to the harassment directed at those who express anything positive. Given that many of them seem to agree with the constant doomposting, it's unfortunately not surprising. It's disheartening to see good members of the community being pushed away because of it.

There’s constant hostility toward anyone being positive, open insults directed at the developers, and virtually no consequences for any of it. As a result, newcomers join daily only to discover that this Discord feels more toxic than a League of Legends ranked match.

[fickle karma]

never thought id actually prefer being on reddit over the discord (even though reddit is still pretty anti armory/1.0) but here we are.

[muted wagon]

“I have Opinion A”
“I disagree”
“Oh fuck me.”

Saying something and someone disagreeing is not the same as harassment or hostility. People are not obligated to say “Oh, that makes perfect sense, my mind is changed” when you propose a reasonable argument

Irrationality and extreme hostility should not be compared like this

[lucid flame]

Harassment and toxicity is bad

A little strange that this topic started because a game dev had a bad take and all people did was say its a bad take

Idk why a screenshot of 2 people being stupid was posted as proof of harassment and hostility

[onyx locust]

I posted some messages here from steam about people who like the system harassing negative reviewers but that seems to be swept under the rug

[lucid flame]

This does not seem like a concerted effort

And nobody wants people who like the armory to hate it

Sk I dont see the point of the screenshots

Wat do you want me to say

[onyx locust]

It’s not a reply to you but what it shows is that there are bad actors in both sides and is not the representative of each other

Saying things like constant hostility while the other side is experiencing the same thing and ignoring that is just blatant mental gymnastics

Just because there are some stupid people who deserved to be punished or banned for that sort of behavior that does not mean that the rest of the community feeling the same way should be included in that judgment

[oak nebula]

Ditch the Armory, save the game. 02

[lucid flame]

Oh I misunderstood ur other reply yeah I get it now

I think the discussion is just better when we just talk about the system and not stupid people

[onyx locust]

very much so

taps the sign

[simple idol]

At this point all we can do is wait for a response. TC is aware the armory is a hot topic. I'm sure they will improve it, as its hard to make it worse. I just don't seem them scrapping the system in this season.

[lucid flame]

I dont want them to scrap the system

I want it retooled

The more I play with it the more I see the idea they were going for

Scrapping it would be a massive waste imo

[muted wagon]

Yeah if they scrap it now people will be justifiably mad about their collections
Which is why I’m glad we have the end of season reset because there’s an opening to tweak and overhaul

I like the idea of the population growing stronger during the season
I like the designs of the items themselves, they are more interesting than what we were using in Open Beta and late Alpha

[oak nebula]

I wouldn't be mad about my collection if it meant getting rid of the elephant in the room

[hushed bough]

yeah I feel like if the armory is getting reset anyways why not remove it

especially if the replacement is being able to use everything

that's an upgrade

[oak nebula]

Yea that'd be one major issue out of the way

[lapis ledge]

giving everyone all the items, but make it so the amount grinded so far is converted to upgrades players can choose to items they want?

I don't mind my upgrades being wiped at the end of the season or whenever, honestly

but I do mind having entire items with impactful / unique effects being taken away that took a bunch of gambling to obtain

[oak nebula]

Scrap the upg levels too

Lvl 3 is base, done

So much retention bloat it's crazy

[lapis ledge]

I'm currently missing 4 grips, but managed to open 6 (six) of the same green one somehow

It's the randomness that's infuriating. If it were so you choose what to upgrade with prisma, I wouldn't mind it at all - gives me something to work towards

[oak nebula]

It'd be leagues better but I'd still mind it

I don't wanna chase carrots on sticks, I'd rather work towards learning the game

The core is good enough to allow for that so I'm sad they resorted to these tricks

[lapis ledge]

I get you, that makes sense. Mind you those upgrades could be tweaked to be less impactful (I think the extra 2.5% -> 5% range on your basic attacks grips is an okay example, some relics do get massively better when upgraded) like that's not going to make or break the game almost all of the time, but you still have something to chase if that's your thing and you wanna minmax.

[oak nebula]

At that point I'd play an ARPG 😄

A problem with upgrades like that in PvP is that they only work when they suck

Everyone lvl 1? The system is useless
Everyone max lvl? The system is useless again

It only has an impact when it creates imbalance and unfairness

[simple idol]

I am so lost on this chasing progression in menus. Don't we play because the gameplay is sick, not this weird lootbox item chasing?

[oak nebula]

External vs internal motivators

Sadly, many modern games use external motivators as a crutch to generate retention

[lapis ledge]

what do you mean by "lootbox item chasing"? like killing a boss hoping your item will drop? if so, that's not what I'm saying at all

in any case, I see your point, I wouldn't be devastated if they removed upgrading

what I'm saying is, it can be done in a way that people who enjoy it can go for it (more players for the game potentially?) and also not being that impactful for those who don't

[simple idol]

From my talking with people, they love the progression of opening loot boxes, i am not really understanding what it adds to this game in particular. Like for me, does it feel fun i can't get the hover relic for celeste? no, i want to experiment, but i cant. and in the end, its all for some dopamine with a flashy opening of a loot capsule

[lapis ledge]

just a few minutes ago I said the randomness sucks

so I agree with you 100%

[simple idol]

ah, i see, mb.

[midnight token]

Unpopular opinion: you don't need items to be good and make an impact

10% extra damage isn't gamebreaking

Neither are half of the item effects, most are ported from other items from beta

[quick karma]

Yea but that was their whole idea

[oak nebula]

yea ik still sadge

[oak nebula]

whats the point of the system then?

and even 0.5% extra damage can be game breaking, ever seen RTS patch notes? lol

[midnight token]

It's not that the items are what they are, it's just that people are calling a system broken when it really doesn't affect the core meta that much

Hunters are balanced

-# most of them at least cough Oath cough

[lapis ledge]

I'm not falling for that. Bless your heart.

[midnight token]

Some hunters are more suited with and against other hunters than others

Items don't really change that

And in their current state, won't without major changes

[acoustic mica]

https://tenor.com/view/bait-thats-bait-tom-hardy-mad-max-gif-5055384

[lapis ledge]

took 2 years off my life probably to hold back, ngl

[oak nebula]

make that 4+

[acoustic mica]

me when I press paladins and fully negate felixs anti heal from my entire team

I’m sure he’s glad I loot boxed the item early

[oak nebula]

clearly he should've played around that with pure skill

side note: I think the heal VS anti heal mechanic is trash and has never been satisfyingly balanced in any game ever

[lapis ledge]

lemme make sure I got it right - anti heal lasts for 10 seconds and is 100% heal reduction?

[oak nebula]

no healin at all yes

[tawny swallow]

In overwatch Ana's grenade is pretty cool I would say

[acoustic mica]

and then I instantly switch to Kiriko

[lapis ledge]

that's harsh

[oak nebula]

not from pots

not from base, nothing

[viscid mural]

Antiheal can be cleansed by using a heal pot or the cleanse relic

[tawny swallow]

Haven't played in ages so I dont remember what she does

[acoustic mica]

Has a cleanse to counter Ana

[oak nebula]

I always forget one of the pots cleanses it

I miss brewing the nuts into drinks

[lapis ledge]

oh good to know

[oak nebula]

camp felt like a camp

now it's so stripped down

[viscid mural]

Screenshotting this for when ur internet famous so I can gain social credit or sumn idk

[muted wagon]

Camp feels a tiny bit vestigial sometimes

[oak nebula]

I hope we both get there lol def was low hanging fruit

[tawny swallow]

Don't you guys think that the main problem with armory rn is unlocking an item basically guarantees you'll be able to get it during the match? Or is it just me?

Unless u die super early obviously

[muted wagon]

It definitely feels like there is a stage during your progression where you have the same build every match

[acoustic mica]

No the main problem is prisma gain and not being able to target items you want imo

[oak nebula]

here's my definitive post about this, copy pasta for chill

Fixing the armory and the game(?)
Here's my take:

• Nuke the entire out-of-game meta progression
• Sell everything but the Relics in-game for gold (full pool of items available from start)
• Sell the Relics for Prisma (full pool of items available from start)
• Then you can give Prisma out only for PvP interactions like knocks and for rare monsters and such (almost like how upgrade shards used to work, but rarer)
• Put the forge guy in the matches, selling his Prisma gear. Could even make a location for him

As for the game:

• The roster needs to be free, no one's gonna bother with a game with a locked roster in 2025 even if you're generous with unlock tokens and whatnot
• All the features like evolving armor and consumable slots and game modes and such need to be unlocked from the start. No one's gonna bother to play otherwise
• It'd be nice to have a collection of items like a compendium in the game again
• More servers are a must
• Controller support is a must (with rebinding)
• Crossplay/propgression is a must (once/if it's on consoles)

I believe that with these few changes the game would be million times better and easier to recommend to anyone.

[tawny swallow]

They don't want to get rid off meta progression, so no point in advocating for it, won't happen

[tawny swallow]

Yes in BR game it's kinda lame

[tawny swallow]

Won't change the fact that some people gonna have more items available to buy, which means you need to grind to have more options

[oak nebula]

hey I said my piece, after that it's their fault

"I failed humanity once before...and I will NOT do so again. If you cannot take up this cup, then I shall find another who will." - Medivh the Guardian

also "they won't change it"

yeah, not with that attitude 😄

[muted wagon]

We all would prefer an end to meta prog but forcing people to grind was the point
This is the hill TC has chosen (to live or die on)
They thought about this a lot and their objectives (retention at all costs) are not the same as ours (level competition, etc)
I think the most they’ll actually do is give more control in unlocks etc

[oak nebula]

sadge

we should be grinding our skill not unlocks

[tawny swallow]

My proposal is keep the boxes and prisma, add pool of items for new accounts (not 4 gloves), and make it so people still need to adapt their build on the go (like Arena mode in league, which also has meta progression). Basically everything you get from the armory adds to the pool of items which you can possibly get inside the match, but not guaranteed.
Such system will keep: 1. Grind 2. Slow unlocking of the items for new players 3. Make games more diverse and unique for veterans

I was thinking a lot about armory and it's the only solution I see, which will be good for both sides (fans of the grind and fans of the fair competition)

[oak nebula]

why are we advocating arbitrary grind though? smh

[tawny swallow]

What exactly do you mean?

[oak nebula]

which part wasn't clear?

[muted wagon]

We don’t like it but we are trying to find middle ground with devs

[oak nebula]

yea I'll agree to disagree then

the only grinding should be the grinding of mehcanics and game knowledge

not chasing colored bars that fill up and PNGs

and this game has the core to support that

which makes relying on crutches and pyschological tricks all the more depressing

but oh well, I said my piece, it's out there, that's all

wouldn't be the first game I saw flop

[tawny swallow]

What is arbitrary grind? This type of grind won't make the game easier for you, it's gonna be probably even more hard. More choices - more decision-making. Pretty much like Slay the spire, The binding of Isaac and dead cells

[viscid mural]

I think the word arbitrary is an odd choice in the scope of anything vaguely artistic in nature.

Video games are the sum of several "arbitrary" choices that make up the whole, the intended experience. The game is the way it is right now because this is the intended product. To call one choice arbitrary seems to miss the wider picture of how a game comes together.

It's great to have solid ideas that are cool on their own, but when those ideas weren't enough to hold the game together less savvy ideas needed to round out the product to maintain long term interest.

[tawny swallow]

Roque-like system suits BR mode

[viscid mural]

It's an unfortunate truth that OB was not retentive despite how good the core combat was

The game needed something to push it over that line. In a sea of choices, progression seemed the most tried and true for keeping people interested so that's what they went with.

It's not implemented super super well and needs more work, but I disagree that the game can survive without it on some level.

[tawny swallow]

Yep, which means devs need to keep the Armory but also somehow make it not grind and rng to gain more stats every single game

If you just get rid of rng from the Armory, the grind is still gonna be there

[viscid mural]

I think the system as it is gets it mostly right. Earning currency in game as a secondary objective for people who might not be good enough to win outright is a banger idea, it gives less mechanically gifted players something to enjoy. Now the amount people earn is currently WAY too low for having to get lucky from your lootboxes. I wouldn't mind the current prisma rates if you had to save up for items in a static shop, but that's missing the point of the slow rollout of items for new players.

Sorry more coming

I type fragmented

[sterile wigeon]

I like the system it does not seem insanely broken but helpful so its not useless

[viscid mural]

And the lootboxes... I get that giving people the dopamine hit is tried and true and that spacing out new item acquisitions is great for keeping new players from being overwhelmed learning all the items, but I feel like having to get lucky enough to roll each 1* item is a massive oversight, followed by the other massive oversight that is no dupe protection once you max out an item.

[tawny swallow]

It seems to me insanely broken that until I roll good items - I can't play my hunter. Just imagine that you are playing mirror match-up in league (like Ahri vs Ahri) and 1 player got Comet for their runes while other needs to play Grasp

[viscid mural]

I think the armory could really nail down what they want from it without being as hostile to players as it currently is with just a few tweaks and small features.

Favouriting items making them appear in your daily shop more often would be a super cool thing that would keep the current system's biggest wins for retention while allowing more agency for building up items you already have for instance.

[oak nebula]

It's arbitrary bc there's no good reason for it to be in the game

[sterile wigeon]

I wonder how many people are from league here. I think they could fix most of the issues by allowing you to buy any item at all times at a decent price

thats my opinion atleast

[viscid mural]

Pls read my messages for a plethora of good reasons. It's not tacked on for no reason. It was a strategic decision and game design concession to increase player retention, a historically bad stat for Supervive

[tawny swallow]

No, that means that before going ranked I need to grind for the meta build

[oak nebula]

Ye and I said good reason

For the gameplay

Not mental tricks

[viscid mural]

Certainly an option! I just wonder how that could work with the slow rollout they want from the system

[oak nebula]

It's not for no reason

It's just for a bad reason

[tawny swallow]

They also want to slowly introduce every item to the new player

[oak nebula]

Not the way to do it

[viscid mural]

Well if you want to refute good reasons (like one that makes or breaks the game surviving) then that's a-okay. I disagree with you and we can leave it at that.

[sterile wigeon]

500 for gacha 1k for everything but gold relics maybe 500 for perks

[oak nebula]

Assuming the game will survive this way

And assuming the game would've died the other way

Weird but ok

[sterile wigeon]

I assume that they added it to try and get players back into the game. what system would yall have instead

[viscid mural]

I played through the entirety of open beta. I have watched this game die once already dude.

[muted wagon]

Yes
Cheap lootboxes but you pay a little premium to take what u need

[tawny swallow]

The game already died the other way lol

[oak nebula]

Have it like in open beta

[oak nebula]

That was without the launch hype and all

[viscid mural]

OB had MEGA hype

[oak nebula]

You can't know for sure that armory is the thing that bumped the numbers

[viscid mural]

47k ccu, significantly more tjan we have now

[tawny swallow]

We had 50k people playing bro, much more hype than now

[oak nebula]

I mean recent ob which had 600 on steam

I'm driving now

[viscid mural]

You're technically right, but given that gameplay is largely the same, seeing the ccu in a couple weeks time will give us a fuller picture on whether or not armory worked out as intended

[tawny swallow]

Nah, but for real my idea gonna feel good for everyone, but for some reason I don't get much support on it

[viscid mural]

I'm gonna keep it real I haven't read it yet 💀

[tawny swallow]

Damn

[viscid mural]

Just kinda chimed in on the "armory bad" discussion

[tawny swallow]

https://discord.com/channels/852642429105995786/1398902896216768612 you should really take a look

[oak nebula]

I think that's cool for pve (which I'd want more of) but for pvp I'd like to pick my build and counters

I don't wanna play more Hearthstone with the rng lol

[tawny swallow]

You still gonna be able to pick your build, since you would have options. The thing is you won't be able to run meta build every single game without any struggle which imo is good. You want some specific item? Then go kill players who have it, find specific boss or open up some vaults. It was pretty much like that in obt with powers

But asking to be able to run the same build every single game is kinda crazy to me in BR game

[oak nebula]

That's what they advertised

They said it not me

"pick your build so cool playstyle vive W skibidi"

[tawny swallow]

And you can do it rn when you grinded enough, not really fun is it?

[oak nebula]

No
But if it were random I still couldn't do it

[tawny swallow]

How did you played obt? Power spawn was always random, you couldn't guarantee obtaining specific power every game

[sinful iris]

powers and items are not the same thing though. Items previously gave you a base level of stats generally while the new items are both your stats and your powers combined. The stats/powers you get being completely random effects some characters wayyyy more then others. That would make certain characters just either be god mode with there correct items or useless without. Thats a balancing nightmare and this game already has some issues with balance on the current patch with the new items. That would make balancing 1000x harder/

[tawny swallow]

You don't need to make it completely random. For sure it's shouldn't be "chose 1 of 3 support items, when you are playing Brall". And after 1.0 powers and items pretty much the same. It's wouldn't be that hard to make it balanced as you think

And even if it's unbalanced, I would still prefer it to "be stronger or weaker by gacha system"

[sinful iris]

I am the one who emphasized balance issues but also I want to say that speaking from fun its not very fun if you feel like you lost because you got items that weren't great on your character while your enemy got god tier items. With this kind of system that would happen more often then the one we have now even. The problem with the one we have now for me in terms of enjoyability is if I only play a single character and It takes 40 hours of playing or multiple weeks of waiting on dailies/weeklies to get the items for my specific character that is very not fun

Theres no easy answers really atp

[tawny swallow]

My idea implies that everyone gonna get items of the same tier at the specific point of the match (for example lv8 - everyone needs to choose 1 legendary relic)

Pretty much how Arena in league works

[sinful iris]

hmmmmmmmmmmm

[oak nebula]

No but most of those weren't cornerstone to what I was doing anyway

Devs overcomplicate this for no reason

[tawny swallow]

You also need to make a pool of starter items of each tier for every player

[viscid mural]

Build a deck of items like old paladins

:)

[quick karma]

Pretty sure Paladins Primer is bugged lol

[quick karma]

Imo camp should have relic/perk shop so they aren't as rare and give base camps a little more reason to exist

The other shop is everywhere as it is lol

[midnight token]

A note for future discussion: some mechanics have been updated today

All shop prices have been reduced to 1000 Prisma across all items

[onyx locust]

notice how much they crippled the prisma economy? It's like progressing through the game is hard and is actually bad for the game due to the immense leverage it gives to players who play it more than someone

they gutted the prices so much to the point where I'm just like "why not just remove this and bring back old building"

[midnight token]

Prisma gains have been increased, arena now gives prisma, vaults now guarantee a relic or vault

[onyx locust]

they're just keeping this stupid gatekeeping system for the sake of... playertime? I don't even know

[hushed bough]

Yeah I still think this whole system is bad design, regardless of number tweaks

I'm glad they did something at least though

[obtuse nest]

I think mobile game's stackable daily quest system could help out more casual players, since any match they play on the week would randomly complete some quests and result in rewards, meanwhile players with more time would have reduced gains in a day

[hushed bough]

But then it's like what's the point, if grinding gives less rewards you're punishing people for playing more without fully removing the issue of uneven access to items

It's just worst of both worlds

[onyx locust]

damn if only there was a way where we could remove the grinding

and have everyone be at equal footing

[hushed bough]

This system just inherently shouldn't exist in a pvp competitive game

[onyx locust]

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-honkai-star-rail-hoyoverse-genshin-impact-speed-laugh-gif-2230330392318359132

[obtuse nest]

I'm not talking about grinding giving less rewards, I'm talking about giving faster rewards for non-grinders, you'd still have 3 daily quests each day, just that if you miss a some days, those quests are still up for you to gather them on subsequent days (up to limit, of course)

[strange forum]

But like why bother when you can just allow players to buy in game with no armory instead of having to gamble for them outside of the actual game

[obtuse nest]

That's what they tried to do before, If they're trying something new, I'm just feedbacking into polishing it to see the best potential the idea has

even if its a bad one, lol

[hushed bough]

I'm just worried they're gonna kill the game with this system and lose any chance of success

I understand the desire to improve rather than remove but I just can't see any potential here

It's inherently flawed

[strange forum]

But the argument is that it “ died” in beta so they have to do this to make players play more/ for longer

[strange forum]

I guess, i just find it so hard to rationalize a system that undermines equal competition in what i saw as a competitive focused game

[silver pike]

i bought a legendary for 8k prisma xD now it cost 1k

[stable bobcat]

you will get a refund

[acoustic terrace]

You'll get a refund

[visual cloud]

One week of 1.0 gaming. Please remove that RNG.

[muted wagon]

Bro is barefoot 😭

[serene field]

LOL

[stiff girder]

LMAO

[slender girder]

https://i.imgur.com/KbspFMQ.png

as a side note the forge can give you daily specials that you have already maxed

don't really wanna find out what happens if I buy one but I assume +225

[coral swift]

Absurd if true.

That said, I recommend you purchase more levels in Airblaster.

[hushed oasis]

Power should never be locked behind grinding. No exceptions, this is stupid... If you want ppl to grind provide a good ranked experience and have incentives like cosmetics, it's not rocket science

[keen spruce]

It won’t let you buy them

I tried

My armory is 95% upgraded so I rarely get something new there

[night oracle]

OK i take back what Ive said. I still dont like the system but they made it a lot better with the changes to prisma cost in the forge, and they give a lot of free prisma away thru the codes and capsules. Me and my friends who originally werent gonna play bc it was too much of a grind played all night last night and are prob gonna play a lot more this weekend

if they released it with the better forge and lower prisma costs they changed it to we prob wouldve been bitching a lot less/wouldnt have quit bc it seemed like too much of a grind to get items for ranked. its in a way better spot now

[tight oriole]

205 000 prisma needed to unlock every single item, not too much honestly, but it’s gonna be a good 3-4 weeks for most people

[high plume]

The main issue is it locks you

If you cant play the first half of a season starting in the latter half is going to be such a pain in the rear

[viscid mural]

There are catchup mechanics in place to get people up to speed quickly

[high plume]

^ I suppose I haven't seen the full system thats decent to hear

[viscid mural]

but I could still see some frustrations for the matches leading up to the catch up for sure

[high plume]

But imagine if league was like "want a phantom dancer? Get it from RNG and you can then buy it in matches!"

[slender girder]

what catchup mechanics

[viscid mural]

No details yet but (pure conjecture) I would assume it's similar to the battle pass catchup mechanics where if you're below the median of players you get boosted xp, or in this case prisma

[onyx locust]

Why I personally don't like Armory is because it's bloating playtime for the sake of bloating playtime not actually improving the game

1.0 came out armory didn't add anything much other than new items and locked behind progression. A lot of negative view comes around it what did TC do? Buff Prisma gain and nerf costs of items

and now we're gonna have a catch up mechanic

just why does this even exist then other than bloating playtime

[hushed bough]

That's the only reason

[onyx locust]

you give the players all this workarounds like increasing prisma gain sources, decreased prices, free armory codes when in the first you could just make it, not like this

[hushed bough]

They wanted people to play more

[viscid mural]

As stated probably more than 50 times at this point it's to give new players enough dopamine hits to keep them around until the combat clicks. One of the largest retention issues Supervive has is that the combat takes longer to click than people are willing to invest in a new game. Armory is a stopgap to keep them around just long enough for the combat to become the hook.

[onyx locust]

those new players would also be hit by a dopamine once they realize all their grinding disappears

[viscid mural]

🤷‍♂️

idk what you want me to say you asked I answered

Obviously it has some big shortcomings they need to work on

[onyx locust]

No it's fine it's not your problem and it shouldn't be, the armory is just frustrating

what's even more annoying really are the sponsorship for this game. More than 90% of the ads I saw from Supervive are from League players who will never under any circumstances play another game

after the sponsorship ends

I still don't understand why we're not trying to cultivate our own CCs

but that's another conversation out of topic here

[hushed oasis]

Why are they fighting so hard to keep it this way. Seems stupid, just make good skins and there will be revenue also I don't understand why arena is locked before breach. Arena seems like the more newb friendly game mode

[quick karma]

Lol what, 205K is crazy

[tight oriole]

I wouldn't say so, an average 0 impact noobie can get 2-3k a day

Just from dailies

[quick karma]

If you only play after work or on the weekends at like 5K a weekend the season is over before you've cracked half of it

[tight oriole]

Idk how long a season is

I just started 3-4 days ago

[quick karma]

3 months. So I've got about 24 days assuming I do nothing but play this game every single weekend and that's getting everything unlocked right at the end but actually playing with any of it after that point lol

[hushed bough]

The system makes no sense, it upsets dedicated players and fails to accomplish it's intended purpose

[tight oriole]

Idk honestly, I'm more than halfway there and I'm below 50h

Could make it a lil easier or increase the gains a little

So that setting a week or two aside to Prisma farm in casual before going ranked every season would make sense

[hushed bough]

But this is a compromise to accommodate a bad system

Imagine a world where new season drops and you can just play ranked

[tight oriole]

It was either this or you were gonna be stuck grinding out characters

Something had to happen to keep the free to play players in

And I'm one of them honestly

I wouldn't have stayed if there wasn't any kind of progression

And the fact that I can grind out 8h a day and get a little ahead of the rest, or get to the same destination faster, feels good

[hushed bough]

I just feel like the large demographic they want to capture isn't spending 8 hours a day grinding, they're spending like maybe one or two hours. And this system will not benefit them

So far the people I've played the game with have played like one session for around 2 hours and we're a little unhappy they didn't have access to any items and they haven't played since

These are mostly people with prior moba experience but I would think that's the target audience

If you wanna grind items for 8 hours a day Warframe is also free to play

[tight oriole]

90% of the items you grind out are irrelevant with levels, only specific few items get really good at either level 2 or 3, to the point where they aren't viable on level 1

I can perfectly play 2 different builds for Wukong right now with Last Bite lvl 2 and lvl 1 Timestaff for example

[strange forum]

but you only know that as someone who has looked at all of the items, not as a new player who doesnt know what anything is

[tight oriole]

But that takes 10 minutes of actually caring enough for the game and the system to find that out

And within those 10 mins I was able to do the math on how much Prisma I need for all the capsules and items taking into consideration duplicates won't happen

I just learned today you can get duplicates that give back less than 500 prisma, which is not ideal and I hope it gets changed

But for now, I've only gotten 2 duplicates with 78% discovered and almost half upgraded

And both were 600 prisma, so I gained 200 prisma out of thin air

[strange forum]

and we are expecting the new player who would otherwise not play the game if the armory wasnt there to extend playtime to care enough to do any of that thinking

[tight oriole]

But I am that new player

I started 5 days ago

Except I'm high elo in other games and understand that there's going to be an investment of a total of 8 brain cells (maybe) to do basic math and understand a system that's explained to you at least once through the introduction system

My thing about this game is, it looks very simple at glance, which is why I went ahead and tried it with my friend

But it's very esports like, and is trying to do exactly that

Be competitively relevant

So you can't sit here and argue from a point of someone who doesn't even want to fucking read

And I think a vast majority of the playerbase is persuaded by the look and feel

Idk what the game was like before 1.0, as mentioned, just started

[strange forum]

too bad we cant just have it be competetive by not having an item shop deterimine what you can buy in game

[tight oriole]

But my guy, go play League or anything

[lean frost]

they are doing the opposite of what you are thinking xD

[tight oriole]

It will take you thousands of hours to get the characters

Pick your poison

I don't get this argument

You wanna grind items or characters?

[lean frost]

this game became 5 times more casual with 1.0

[strange forum]

but you still have to unlock characters in this game?

[tight oriole]

Cuz it sure as shit ain't Valve making Dota 2 so you can have it all free

[strange forum]

tbh I wouldnt mind if this game was $15

or even 30

[tight oriole]

You don't, what

I got half the roster

Within 10h

Of gameplay

It's a joke

I haven't even tried every character yet and I keep spending the tokens cuz I'm capped at 2

[strange forum]

thats still 10 hours?

[tight oriole]

It's less than 30h of gameplay

I can log in right now and tell you specifically

Go look how long it takes to get characters in other mobas

League

Hots

Smite

Go check

So pick your poison

[strange forum]

im not saying it doesnt

[tight oriole]

Character grind or armory grind

We flipped the armory boiz

It is what it is

[strange forum]

and even still grinding for characters in game works pretty similarly to the tokens

[tight oriole]

No it does not

[strange forum]

or at least i think it does now with how they give out champ shards

[tight oriole]

It works exactly like armory

[strange forum]

50% the cost

[tight oriole]

You get currency, and you spend currency

It didn't for 10 years my guy

[strange forum]

but the armory is the items you buy in game

[tight oriole]

And that's only League

Vive also has shards

Which is your armory

That you can buy exact item you want

[strange forum]

dota you have all characters by default btw

[hushed bough]

And the 10% that are relevant are the items that will see the most play, this system created an imbalance that favors dedicated players over casuals, that is not arguable

[strange forum]

you literally just load in and have everything

[tight oriole]

I literally said

Name any other MOBA

Not developed by multi billion dollar company

That can run F2P model

At a loss

Your arguments are stupid

[tight oriole]

This is somewhat relevant

But I still think it's overblown

Considering how easy it is to unlock it all if you're actually competitive

I'm halfway done

Just started playing

Complet noob

Imagine once I get good with 100-200-300h

And start winning more on average

The prisma on average goes up

It'll just get easier

[strange forum]

bro chill your ego

[tight oriole]

It's not ego, it's factual

A 30h Supervive player is halfway done with armory unlocks

Cry about it

300h alpha veterans in tears

It's crazy

[strange forum]

LOL

why so mad

i guess 10 years stuck in diamond breaks a man

[tight oriole]

I guess you can't even look up stats like a human

Classic op.gg enjoyer

Plat peaker at best

[viscid mural]

Yo what even is this conversation

Are we ego checking?

[strange forum]

idk he stated getting really angy

[tight oriole]

Nah read through it

[cunning ruin]

Bruh I was enjoying the insult show 😭 ruining it miles

[tight oriole]

I wasn't gonna insult him anymore, he's pretty much done with words

[viscid mural]

At work can't

[tight oriole]

He had nothing else to say so he had to call me out on ego

[viscid mural]

Summary?

[tight oriole]

When it's facts

[strange forum]

but you literally trying to flex that you are high elo thats why you are right

[tight oriole]

I explained why I think armory is fine as a 30h player who is halfway done unlocking every single item lvl 3

[strange forum]

but being high elo you arent the general populus

[tight oriole]

No, I gave you 5 different reasons

on why I'm right

And you refuse to acknowledge a single one

[cunning ruin]

Maybe i missed it but i didn't see anything like thjs honestly

[tight oriole]

Champions grind or armory grind
Not a company worth billions that can run F2P model on a loss like Dota 2
It's incredibly easy to get it, so if you're actually competitive, you get it super super fast

[strange forum]

because half are anecdotal to you anyways

[tight oriole]

It's not

It's fact

[viscid mural]

Okay

[tight oriole]

#1398159795235717150 message

Read from here

[viscid mural]

I came
I saw
I left

[tight oriole]

Or my message above I mean

And tell me if I'm egoing it

[strange forum]

bro you started calling me a noob

[tight oriole]

I don't even think I used the word noob

I did actually

To describe myself

And that I'm capable of unlocking half the armory

With 30h in the game

When you veterans are crying

😄

You're disingenuous as shit my guy, I won't really reply to you past this

Enjoy your day

[strange forum]

i mean once again only a veteran of like 10 hours

[viscid mural]

Time to give my guy the veteran discount

[strange forum]

besides the fact that 30 hours in 5 days is once again not what I think the average new player experience

[viscid mural]

Wait yeha that's so much time to sink in

[tight oriole]

It isn't

I'm addicted and only playing this

But that's besides the point either way

[viscid mural]

For most people that's a LOT of hours

[strange forum]

but thats my point

[tight oriole]

It's actually more beneficial to not play as much

I get 100-300 prisma per game

[strange forum]

you arent a casual new player

[tight oriole]

When I can save 2-3h a day

And wait for dailies tomorrow

And get same prisma

[viscid mural]

Like I love the fuck out of this game but I can do maybe 3 hours on my work days + 6 or 7 on my days off

And I work part time

[tight oriole]

I work from home, so I can chill on video games 8h a day if I want to

Besides the point really

[viscid mural]

Unique situation. God I wish that was me

Lmao

[tight oriole]

Point is, 100h you can get everything

And 100h in a 3 month season

Is nothing

[strange forum]

bro 100h is absurd

[tight oriole]

You never played a competitive esports in your life clearly

It's okay

[strange forum]

for a normal person who does other things than just play games

[tight oriole]

100h is nothing

It takes 3000h to get all the characters in other mobas

Stop crying over 100h every 3 months

You want 100h per character in Supervive instead?

And have all the items?

Sure

Pick your poison

I said this many times

It's either armory grind

Or characters are impossibly hard to get

No way you get everything as a F2P player

Or make the game $30

And call it a fucking day

[strange forum]

bro characters in league are not that hard to get

[tight oriole]

There's 170 of them

You bafoon

I'm 15 year top 0.02% ranked player

Idk why you would even argue

[hushed bough]

Yeah 100h seems past the point of casual players. Personally it doesn't seem high to me but most people don't spend that amount of time gaming. And those casual players are the ones spending money

[tight oriole]

HAHA

[strange forum]

NOT EGO BTW

[tight oriole]

But it is

not

Hwo can it be

When you're

disingenuous

Af

"it doesn't take that long"

IT DOES BRO

AHAHAHA

IT DOES

XD

Like what

My guy can't be wrong

It's crazy

[coral swift]

Does anyone have the meme involving Homelander where it says "when you agree but they are making the argument in such a distasteful way you want to pretend you disagree"?

[lean frost]

stop spamming messages here xD

[tight oriole]

That's literally him

Unironically

[coral swift]

Actually, I was referring to you.

[tight oriole]

I can't agree with someone wanting to have everything, when every other game in the same genre doesn't, and for a reason

You're either gonna be stuck farming out characters, or the armory

Or you'll pay for the game

There's no 3rd option, I can't believe people don't understand or get it

It's crazy to me

[coral swift]

I agree with what you are saying (this sort of "retention bloat" is absolutely necessary) and your reasons (they are mostly logically sound), but you are making your argument in a rude and obnoxious way for no particular reason.

[lean frost]

why would somebody defend this shit armory system this hard

[tight oriole]

Because he's unironically disagreeing with me since the beginning

And started "rage baiting"

Like a clown

When I'm having a serious heated argument out of genuine care for the topic

[coral swift]

Also, insulting someone's intelligence typically works better when you do not misspell the insult itself.

[tight oriole]

You're talented as well Sage

England not first language

[strange forum]

bro you just compare armory to champions over and over again when armory is closer to item shop in every game

[tight oriole]

But you're either picking armory to grind

Or

[coral swift]

Ah, it happens. Fair enough.

[tight oriole]

Characters

[quick karma]

The battlepass and Hunter Mastery and account level was fine for this like there's already several layers of progression including unlocking hunters

[coral swift]

The point is that both characters and items are relevant parts of one's "gameplay strength".

[tight oriole]

I also addressed this previously

90% of items are irrelevant to level up, except a specific few

[coral swift]

They were clearly insufficient, by the way.

I will admit as a DOTA player I don't personally empathise with the "need to grind out a fake currency to acquire gameplay improvements or it feels like I'm not getting value out of my time" crowd, but there is a very large crowd of them.

[quick karma]

To get the characters yes. But every game you're buying from the same damn shop

[tight oriole]

Yes but my whole point is, you can't have both

You're either gonna be stuck on a few characters for hundreds of hours

Or you're gonna have to grind out armory every season for 100h

It's a pick your poison situation

You can't have everything and have the game be Free 2 Play

Dota can do it because it's Valve

[cunning ruin]

This kinda just shows some people do genuinely like it. Even if something of his arguments aren't too good(100h is not nothing for the average persin regardless of what you say)

[tight oriole]

I have 1.5k hours in Dota 2

3k hours in Dota 1

Infinite hours in league probably since it's most played

And you just can't have it

HotS as well

There is not a game other than Dota 2

That allows this

[coral swift]

I am baffled by people who "like" the system.

[tight oriole]

And that's because it's owned and made by Valve

Multi billion dollar company

[hushed bough]

I think characters are a preferable grind to items personally. if you grind to unlock a new character and already have access to all items at full strength, you can immediately begin learning that characters full potential, whereas currently you pick up a new character and rather than learning their proper play style immediately you have to grind for items they can use and then level said items and then begin playing them properly. It's just a worse system

[coral swift]

I am in the "reluctantly understands the system" crowd, because it is quite literally just how it is.

[quick karma]

Competitive integrity demands that it be the characters and battlepass the armory can piss off if they're not gonna unlock lv1 for everyone at least

[coral swift]

This is a good argument.

[tight oriole]

I can agree with this completely

But that's an actual argument

Not some bullshit the dude earlier was spewing

[hushed bough]

I'm dissociating from that argument lol

[coral swift]

As one should.

[quick karma]

Lmfao

[tight oriole]

And I think they should've made it like that as well

But they went for the Valorant approach

[quick karma]

Every single round should be at the same level start for everyone otherwise there's little point in playing

Whether it's characters, battlepass, etc IDC what the grind is but it shouldn't be the basic capacity to build any given character each round lol

[coral swift]

The point made is that grinding characters and grinding items are effectively equivalent (where a battlepass is not).

I will note that Supervive's system is a little more dubious for a few reasons (primarily the randomness), though.

Prince has not touched upon that factor yet.

[quick karma]

Which is fine, that doesn't dissuade me from saying what I said

It still stands that grinding external to any given round is better

[tight oriole]

I also addressed all of this initially

As I said

[coral swift]

I have no idea what this sentence means in context.

[tight oriole]

I didn't know until now that there was duplicates that give less than the 500 prisma you pay for the capsule, if they remove those, it's a pretty good system still

[coral swift]

I disagree.

[tight oriole]

I managed to pull 2 duplicates and got 600 prisma for each of them

So I profited 200 prisma for nothing

Considering the time investment it takes to get it all, the randomness is only a factor within the first 20-30h of grinding it out

After that it's just a matter of leveling

[coral swift]

The randomness does increase engagement (despite what people say, the average gamer does in fact enjoy lootboxes), but it is necessarily worse at letting people progress through the game.

[coral swift]

Which is relevantly random.

[tight oriole]

But only a few items get insanely good with either level 2 or 3

The others are just small incremental numbers

[coral swift]

Insert Grabbby the Squid, Resonant Idol, Last Stand, Airblaster, and several other things I am forgetting here.

[tight oriole]

Like 10% Max HP to 12 and to 14 on lvl 2 and 3

Yeah, I agree

Some are incredibly strong on lvl 2 and 3

[coral swift]

Essentially all of the relics become significantly better, even the stat increase items.

[tight oriole]

And need to be leveled to 2 and 3 to be relevant

Last Bite, or Last Stand you mentioned is one of them

I just got it to lvl 2

And started using it today

[coral swift]

(The Sword and Isochron's are the two primary candidates of this, I have come to the conclusion Black Rose is cosmic bait).

[tight oriole]

Previously I wouldn't because I didn't have the shield portion of it

But other than those few, it's not that significant

You're not losing the fight because the enemy had the 3% extra ability haste on you

Or the 2% extra max HP

[hushed bough]

I don't think this system is anything like valorant. Where do you see similarities?

[tight oriole]

It can and will matter in very specific scenarios, but not nearly as much where you can call it a problem

[tight oriole]

There is no currency grind for characters, you just get tokens and unlock them

[hushed bough]

Ah I see, I thought you meant in relation to the items

[onyx locust]

"there is no currency grind you just get tokens"

so currency

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-honkai-star-rail-hoyoverse-genshin-impact-speed-laugh-gif-2230330392318359132

[tight oriole]

I'm not gambling will I get 10 or 1000 prisma this game

The tokens are tied to levels I believe, or something of sorts

Static predictable progression

[onyx locust]

But I'd rather grind for characters than items because
A. literally every other genre in the same area of these types of games do
B. because armory as a system has failed before already because no one likes out of game progression for a PvP game (Paragon)

and League, I don't even know if you've touched League for the past year or so but prices for Champion dropped HIGH

[tight oriole]

I agree with you completely

[tight oriole]

I have, maybe a dozen or two of games, but keep in mind back in Season 5 when I was just getting high elo

[onyx locust]

from 7800~6300 before now costs 3150 at most yes even the new characters

[tight oriole]

There was half the characters there are now

7800 was only release champs

For the first week

None ever stay that

[onyx locust]

and you get essences by leveling up in the battle pass just like Supervive

and they are generous enough

[tight oriole]

I agree with you

[onyx locust]

I played recent and went from 10k essence to 55k in a matter of a month

[tight oriole]

But there's 170+ characters now

Back then there wasn't even a total of 70

[onyx locust]

yeah and? it's not even comparable to Supervive's item system and getting champions is cheap as hell

[tight oriole]

But getting Supervive items is cheap as hell as well

[onyx locust]

saying that there's over 170 characters are you saying that people are down to play 170 games at minimum for all of those 170 characters

[tight oriole]

It's cheaper than getting 170 characters

[onyx locust]

40 min games each

[tight oriole]

It's not about playing all of them, you're telling me you're gonna use every single item in Supervive?

[onyx locust]

yes?

why wouldn't you?

[tight oriole]

Doubtful

[onyx locust]

why would you not use every single item in League

why would you not use every single item in Dota 2

[tight oriole]

I'm not queing a tank buying mage items

For example

[onyx locust]

Malphite 💀

[tight oriole]

And regardless of this

I'm <50h in with gametime

I'm halfway done with the armory

[onyx locust]

start thinking big and stop thinking meta, the armory exists because they wanted to expand player's creativity with builds

you're actively trying to fight against it

[tight oriole]

500h into League

You won't have all champs

[onyx locust]

you're against the message of armory

[tight oriole]

It is tedious and bad, but not as much as people present it to be

I'd rather have to grind out characters, than items

That I can agree on with everyone

[onyx locust]

congratulations you're talking about items that disappear every season and comparing it to a permanent addition to your account in League

apples to oranges

[tight oriole]

But I get 10 champs every season in League, if I don't play this season I have to grind 100h anyway

[onyx locust]

If you haven't touched league in the past year or so don't even talk about how League feels

[tight oriole]

I have

Not even a week ago

Ranked

D1-2 lobbies

With ex Masters mmr

[onyx locust]

then you should know that you can get at most 25k blue essence along with champion shards per battle pass which lasts around three weeks

[tight oriole]

Can show proof if you want

Battle pass that you pay

?

[onyx locust]

IT'S FREE

ARE YOU OKAY

[tight oriole]

You mean you have portions of it free like Supervive

What

[onyx locust]

the blue essences from battle pass are free and are gained in large amounts

you can get 25k in a matter of three weeks

[tight oriole]

I'm logging in rn

To check the free gains

For the sake of this argument

[onyx locust]

not even including quests

and leveling up

[tight oriole]

Supervive gives 2k Prisma from dailies

So let's not

And they're so easy, you can do them blind

Play a game with X item

Buy it and go afk

Until you lose

It's a joke

[onyx locust]

💀

[strange forum]

what

i swear the other channels are still talking about how to stop people from just throwing games

[tight oriole]

8k blue essence raw from the battlepass

And a few champ capsules

It's not even close to what you're saying

That's not even 5 champs in total

[onyx locust]

yeah because I'm not even including chests, dailies and quests

and the pass is repeatable

at the end

[tight oriole]

What daily

It gives pass XP

Not essence

[tight oriole]

Not anymore(?)

[onyx locust]

are we deadass 💔

[tight oriole]

And that's infinite?

[onyx locust]

yes?

[tight oriole]

Okay then

But it's still tied to dailies

So no point

You're capped by dailies or grind

Which is same shit you're doing in Vive

[onyx locust]

Yeah because in supervive it disappears and in league it stays

[tight oriole]

Just packaged differently

But you're really giving League way too much credit

if you started a fresh acc

[onyx locust]

I'm not, I'm just pointing out about how flawed your argument is

[tight oriole]

You would never get close to what you're saying

While in Vive you can get armory in <100h

[onyx locust]

you're comparing something not even comparable

[tight oriole]

But what is not comparable haha

I got more than half of it unlocked

<50h of gameplay

XD

You know the tons of hours I spent to get all champs in League?

[onyx locust]

yeah congrats on spending 100 hours, surely I can bring a friend who's a casual at games to play the game for 100 hours with no guarantee

[tight oriole]

I'd rather do 1-2 week grind every 3 months

Idc about your casual friend

It's a competitive esports leaning game

[onyx locust]

why wouldn't you care about my casual friend when armory exists because of players like him

[tight oriole]

That's false

[onyx locust]

HUH

I give up

[tight oriole]

That's dev narrative

If you wanna believe it's for them

Believe it

It's to keep game time up and serverz full

Omigad

Crazy

[onyx locust]

Armory has never been for veterans and their negative reviews in Steam says it and the reactions towards this system says it

[tight oriole]

And only sweats and competitive players will go through that

Not casuals

We all know who will go through with unlocking it all

Devs can say whatever they want

Vets can be upset as much as they want

This system is the bread and butter to keep the vets and sweats in

People who are hooked

[viscid mural]

Is this convo still going?

[tight oriole]

And want to play Vive

[viscid mural]

Can we agree to disagree at this point? No one is changing anyones mind.

[onyx locust]

this guy says vets like the armory system I just think it's funny

[tight oriole]

You lost me at "Tedious grindy system was made for casual retention"

[strange forum]

but thats literally the thread is about?

[tight oriole]

I know, and I will say it once again for the people in the back

ARMORY IS SHIT, UNLOCK CHARACTERS INSTEAD

But as is, it's not as bad as people put it to be

And it's elephant tears

[lean frost]

do you think not having an item your character needs after 20h of gameplay is fine?

[tight oriole]

Yes because in <50h I was able to unlock (With upgrades included) more than half of it

If it was 500h

I would agree with you

[onyx locust]

the guy thinks unlocking characters is the same as unlocking items I don't think there's anything to be reasoned with

[quick karma]

basically, grinding for whatever is equivalent external to any given round (ie, the item system currently) is better than now. Right now, external grind (prisma/forge) dictates in game balance and builds when it shouldn't have any bearing whatsoever

[onyx locust]

they give us more capsules, they give us more ways to gain prisma, they gave us cheaper prices in the shop

It's pretty much telling that this shouldn't exist in a BR mode in the first place

[tight oriole]

Or that it's a new system needing balance and tweaking, but who knows right

[onyx locust]

yeah it's crazy how this system needs balance and tweaking when it's already perfected in open beta

[onyx locust]

when armory didn't exist and you could just buy stuff out