Wukong dunking over abyss from out of vision might be the coolest mechanic I've ever witnessed in a

[minor silo]

Ah

[silk rover]

makers of battlerite/blc/v rising

and ofc

dead island epidemic

[radiant saddle]

my favorite

i love a good epidemic

[minor silo]

Plague inc my beloved

[radiant saddle]

That's why I do think it is a little unfair to compare and contrast between those combat systems and Supervive. It's just... really well done.

[fathom cosmos]

it’s just idol. on tetra i run full dmg. on certain champs idol just becomes broken. hudson for example his ult isn’t even that needed, his rmb doesn’t proc idol, so he just has short dash and wires. if he ever wants to ult guess what, fast dash and 2 wires out boom idol almost max stacked again. this item has been bad design since it was amplifier and making it the way it is now just made it worse.

why does seven suns come with a movement and dash debuff, yet idol has omega upgrades every rank? this item is just bad and needs to be gone not even reworked lol. let CDs be impactful and something we track like before.

[final ravine]

That’s not his domain at all, he works in QA. Also a really difficult question for 1 dev to answer.

Fax

[chilly parrot]

ban idol but only with specific hunters and only specific abilities - no Idol on Hudson Q, no idol on Beebo RMB

just for ChipSa's sanity

[final ravine]

Ya we tried that with 3 star times but it’s too hard to police

I know it’s unrealistic for a hot fix but cdr is very very strong atm

Sucks the idol bug fix inadvertently buffed it

[chilly parrot]

I'm kinda memeing here, I think banning thinks that specifically is probably a nightmare, if it were me, I would have maybe a hunter ban, maybe some item bans, but that's about it

we also nerfed it with the bugfix, but clearly it wasn't quite enough

[silk rover]

https://tenor.com/view/crazy-cat-insane-cat-help-my-cat-is-insane-help-my-cat-cat-gif-21688581

[final ravine]

Well the issue with the bugfix is that characters like joule don’t need their third ability and hudsons rmb doesn’t count

[chilly parrot]

I'm not sure what we'll do, but we're keeping an eye on it

[radiant saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/jack-nicholson-jack-nicholson-yes-yes-nod-head-nod-gif-17444176260167585294

Koalifer gets it

We must drive chipsa to the brink

[wary stirrup]

Ez

[cosmic yew]

koalifier being the goat of communication per usual

I was a big fan of how idol worked before the "Bugfix", getting CDR on 1 spell with dashes being exempt from removing stacks, imo reverting it back to that state is the healthiest!

Is it intended that squads in customs now only supports 9 teams after the addition of 1 spectator slot? @chilly parrot

There is no possibility to do 10 squads teams anymore it seems

[chilly parrot]

it's capped for server perf reasons I believe - you need to change team size to 3 to have more teams

[cosmic yew]

the cap is 41 people in the lobby right?

[lethal vault]

That still enables perma CC builds depending on tuning, but with Time Staff competing for the same slot in builds where you don't want both it probably makes tuning the values pretty weird.

[cosmic yew]

Well i dont want a full revert, just the dash part

i think chrono-gauge passive is more problematic than idol

[lethal vault]

Yeah it just seems awkard with time staff is the main thing. Then idol is like just as much CDR as Timestaff but with much bigger restrictions.

Maybe that's ok but it looks weird

[cosmic yew]

so put it to 4%

me and some scrims fellas made custom patchnotes for fun a week ago and had this

with the other CDR nerfs permastun isnt a thing

atleast not full infinite

very low cooldowns yes, but escapeable

[delicate bronze]

nerf idol and vive infusor, thanks

[cosmic yew]

The real benefit idol provides is infinite mana over timestaff

[lethal vault]

I'm not convinced...

<--- Biased Crysta Player

[cosmic yew]

for instance if u look at ghost laser behavior, the cooldown is reduced by 50% on a maxxed laser hit, lets say timestaff reduces the base cooldown to 6 seconds, the hit will put it to 3 seconds

but with idol, it will reduce it from 10 -> 6 seconds after cast (assuming its 40% cdr) and then the laser hit reduces it to 1 second cooldown

[delicate bronze]

fr

we need that passive

[cosmic yew]

so there are situations that idol is way more beneficial over timestaff

especially with ghost and when combod with chrono-gauge grips

i think the best of both worlds it putting the CDR to 4% and not letting it reduce dash cooldowns like on the old patch

[lethal vault]

It could still reduce dash cooldowns, you just had to only use dash & reset it when you did something else.

[cosmic yew]

yea im aware, but that just enabled meme builds

i ran it for fun on saros, joule and huddy before the "bugfix" and it was very weak

its decent now cus u can also barbed wire

#bringbackoldidol (with 4% instead of 5%)

[livid granite]

#MakeHudsonGreatAgain

[lethal vault]

You'd still be able to body slam spam on hudson, because of the ordering change, just no barb wires. The ordering change is really nice though otherwise, lets you dash glide with it.

[livid granite]

They can just remove that shit and no one would care

I hope they do

[cosmic yew]

yea it was nice that it gave back mana for elluna dashes now even when gliding

[livid granite]

Like the infinate hudson dash

If u hit someone

That shit is not balanced lol

That can go

Let me keep mobility tho pwease

:3

[cosmic yew]

im just sad that it looks like laser-spam ghost wont be a thing anymore soon

i had a unique build with old idol on rmbs with ghost that then pivoted into a lategame laser max

[livid granite]

you have no idea of my pain imagine playing the worst character in the game getting good with it and its op as fuck for one day and then its gone

[cosmic yew]

im scared this will be cooked soon

[livid granite]

😭

[livid granite]

is it not disabled?

[cosmic yew]

yea for now

thats fine to do

but im scared of what will be changed, old amplifier in open-beta was unplayable

[livid granite]

Is there any reason they said or no

[lethal vault]

I'd have used the effect on Void in open beta if it was on a dash haste item.

[cosmic yew]

Is there any chance to give us the option to remove a spectator slot in return for 10 squads teams in the settings? I know squads custom games are the least of your priorities but we were trying to host a tournament that is now unfortunately not possible anymore 😭

[lethal vault]

I did experiment with it a bit

And it was very close to being good enough in the niche I was using it for but not quite

[fathom cosmos]

that shit still p strong lol

u guys just build huddy like some freaks using vive infuser

[sterile bone]

They gotta do smth with hudson if idol isn't good on him anymore. But ik almost for a fact they aren't gonna cus fuck me.

[fathom cosmos]

having sunweaver proc every second healing and doing dmg while slowing and displacing ppl is crazy

they cant rly do anything on huddy i think that character is cursed lol

either too op or too weak.

[sterile bone]

There's quite a bit they could do that isn't just "buff his tools", it's either give hom more tools in put more stuff in his tools.

Just flat out buffs was never really the answer but that's all they really ever look at

[fathom cosmos]

theyd have to do a rework of his kit for that yea

idk the reworks dont rly seem that good to me lol. like eva changes are just making her more annoying.

[chilly parrot]

I don't think it's the highest priority from us, game isn't even balanced with 4 player squads in mind right now

[sterile bone]

The funny thing is they don't really have to.

I also don't want any premature buffs. Cus if idol is still good for him we chilling, if it isn't he is cooked.

[cosmic yew]

Fully understand, but its a shame that we dont have that option anymore now, end of open-beta we had some great squads tournaments

[fathom cosmos]

what do u think they can do to make him balanced then w his current kit?

[sterile bone]

Make his dash ram better and so he can actually use wires offensivly more.

Honestly just improving dash ram would go miles, ik that for a fact after the idol shit. That would even be enough by itself.
I do have quite a few ideas on what specifically they could do but what I say won't really matter.

[fathom cosmos]

as in push ppl further? or have more control when ur full dashing?

[cosmic yew]

push further

[sterile bone]

The ability to get true dash resets like idol but not the way it was with idol.

Smth I've also always wanted was a weaker version of wire that insta deployed during dash but had like 70% less health.

[sterile bone]

The knockbacj is genuinely a nerf bro. Idk when i ever use spun up knockback increase.

[fathom cosmos]

could b cool to look at

[sterile bone]

If they just buff his numbers like they seem to onky think about he'd almost for sure become stupid. Cus that type of balancing for hudson would make him either weak or op like you said. Which is why I don't really think they should just do flat number buffs.

Another random idea I had recently after the idol era, maybe make it so his dash can drag people and proc multiple times on the same person. Not entirely sure how they could do this but coukd be vwry cool the mess with

[rigid sigil]

Dash dragging actually sounds kinda interesting

Wait that would enable hudson + grabby kidnap tech

[minor silo]

What if they made his wires more like the net trap from that boss

If he directly hits someone with them they get rooted for x seconds

[sterile bone]

It kind of existed before cus you could still drag but you basically had to bet on the enemy not even trying to escape. Which would be nice if it dragged better and it dragging actually meant smth.

[final ravine]

this discussion is no longer about wukong

lol

[sterile bone]

Hasn't been for like a week bro

[rigid sigil]

huck them forward to deal damage and root instead of them coming top down rn maybe?

[sterile bone]

He'd likely struggle with dmg in that case as crazy as it sounds.

It's a cool idea but his wires were also how he did most of his dmg before idol(idol made it his dash instead of wires)

[rigid sigil]

like carbine cage but can't go through walls. Throw them and they're small projectiles that do damage, re-cast to expand them into full shape. Or they just go full shape where your cursor was when firing them

[minor silo]

I'm saying as an additional effect

Not replace the existing one

Or give him mini turrets

[sterile bone]

Idk exactly how that would work.

I'm always talking about these hudson buffs but there like a 90% chance they'll literally never do it.

And it saddens me if not actually piases me off.

[minor silo]

If you land wires directly on top of someone they get rooted

[sterile bone]

Could be nice. But he needs something. Just played my first game after idol taken out and he is actually so fucking ass. Having a hard time doing damage once again, in the character who's whole thing is damage.
Just gotta pray the terrain favors me, I love basically praying the terrain favors me to be useful, or maybe the enemy goes over abyss like idiots, just maybe 🙂
I'm sorry I'm so annoyed that he's bacj to sucking

[clear saddle]

ive seen pod doing well on him

[sterile bone]

Those items don't exist rn that's the problem. Ig songbow does but it doesn't help with the issue of me struggling to kill people. And rampager doesn't do shit ngl.

[graceful vine]

A lot of off screen stuff seems to not show, whether it's Ghost rail gun, Saros rmb, shrike (this one I haven't seen personally though) and the crazy dunk that goes through walls and everything from wukong

It's extremely inconsistent with Ghost. It's basically just a 40 mana piercing myth Auto but like 75% of the time you can't even aim the stupid thing it slows so harsh like b
Hudson when he's spun up and obviously you're only hitting oblivious idiots with a giant slow line like that lol. But 25-50% of the time you can just flick it normally like wukong can with dunk

Across the board. Most of the older characters are decently in line with each other maybe stronger in areas and then you get the melee characters who get to have like 6-10 abilities to everyone else's 4 and in some cases amazing passives

[spice chasm]

What are the devs thoughts behind removing bishop rmb 4 (basically a walking mortar) saying its unhealthy only to add it back on the new character Mercury?

[lethal vault]

Bishop RMB 4 was a lot different no?

[rigid sigil]

Mercury's rmb is as hard to hit as old mortar. Bishop rmb had very quick cast time, would impulse you, and the detonation could be held to force you out of space. I think it's unfair to compare the two.

also significantly higher cd on Merc's rmb

[spice chasm]

CD would be the same if Mercury players had the same amount of CD as Bishop players had back then. Sure old Bishop RMB is slighly better in that its faster to activate (but mercury as way longer range), but the main reason the ability is not a problem is becasue Mercury is fucking dogshit

[keen ferry]

this made me laugh out loud

[rigid sigil]

Dude the game has more cdr now by a significant margin. I also disagree with her being bad. I think she's team reliant but can be a giga support for that team. People are sleeping on shift max

Duality + Ardent / Chrono + Feytech. Solid damage and cd reduction

interested in seeing how she fares when CD's get hit again (I hope) though, considering her base cd's are pretty high

[spice chasm]

Yea sure theres more CD in the game but you cant pick it as youre actively trading way better options for it which is not worth (beforehand you traded NO output for insane CD amounts so thats why it was problematic)

Also have played several scrim blocks with this character so i can definitely say its worthless (just bad is more appropiate)

[chilly parrot]

this feels like bait but I'm going to engage with this genuinely

Bishop RMB 4 had different outputs! It booped you in addition to damage
Bishop RMB had no charge time and was a substantially faster projectile with less warning
Bishop did not make herself vulnerable when casting her RMB4
Bishop's RMB4 had a substantially lower CD than Mercury's mortar

So those are just the "on the ability itself" comparisons. Beyond that, they are fundamentally different hunters!

Bishop also has substantially more mobility than mercury via dashes, LMB tech (similar but more quickly useable than merc's), and ultimate.
Bishop's baseline range threat is substantially higher than Mercs with LMB + RMB spam

okay that's my last response to bait I must have self control I will have self control I'm manifesting self control

[keen ferry]

I got ragebaited last night I feel u bro

[bleak garden]

are you entering your Koalocked era

by engaging with community constantly on feedback thats a compliment also I love to see it ❤️

[livid granite]

Seeing u responding making me gotta ask, whats with the hesitation to just add cooldowns too all the items that having cooldown reduction break?

Isnt a cooldown on things like vive infuser and sunweaver and chrono a simple and direct fix that most players would be happy with? It seems you guys are avoiding doing so and im just curious why as it just seems so obvious to do for general game health

[chilly parrot]

I don't think we're against doing that, we just haven't done it

[livid granite]

Ok, fair enough. Thats good to hear, I dont think im alone though in thinking that this would be a really good solution to a lot of the problems going on right now, one that wouldnt upset players

[spice chasm]

Its genuinely not bait.

1. That wasnt what i was referring to.
2. The charge time only matters when your actively fighting someone - which in scrims/tournaments (where you often sit in one spot contesting other people from a range) dont really matter
3. Why is this even in the game btw? This one thing alone makes her substantially worse in straight up fights
4. This is actually just straight up a lie. Old Bisop RMB with double tech had 5s CD, and current Mercury with RMB max has 6s CD and if you hit a target with Chrono Gauge/Timestaff ONLY its already the same CD

Not sure how the movement is relevant when Mercury literally doesnt have to move up to a team and can instead just hold RMB.
The "faster projectile with less warning" imo isnt true as from the moment you see the AOE from Mercruy RMB its basically the same reaction time as old RMB.

The only reason this ability is not more problematic is because the character is genuinely extremely weak in scrims/tourney

[vapid zinc]

cope

[cosmic yew]

May i ask what made yall decide to give mercury vulnerable during cast? The mortar power never had this.

Maybe im bad on her but i feel like mercury rmb is one of the worst spells in the game because of the vulnerability and the reduced damage if it doesnt hit dead-center

[keen ferry]

was mercury weak in eu

[brittle vapor]

If you use it for combos you aren't vuln too long. But it's best as a poke or zone

[cosmic yew]

we run her because of magicals mercury tournament, if that wasnt happening we prob wouldnt

i think i can make her work but im taking a break from the game rn

[uncut ravine]

ill probably be maining her since eva is ass

[cosmic yew]

I just think her rmb is worse than mortar in many ways

and mortar wasnt considered a strong power

i also think instead of the heal leveling providing +1sec smoke duration it should provide -1sec cooldown

its a stationary cloud, in this game standing in 1 spot for over 10 seconds is just not good

lower cooldown >>

[turbid copper]

it's not good for ranked but it's still really good for scrims

[chilly parrot]

I don't know for sure, I think the idea was that it punishes her a little for dropping it on top of herself to counter melee

which one, the one where you snap back into portal right after going through it?

why would we revert vs. just fix that bug

[cosmic yew]

I understand that reasoning, but it seems to mainly be ranged characters punishing me, it feels like i cannot cast this spell in fights ever without getting instantly blown up by a projectile

very awkward spell to use and very hard to utilize, its great for followups on teammates CC spells but thats about it

[keen ferry]

idk i just step behind a wall or out of vision and didn't get punished too harf

if u want to use it midrange just lmb to zone then rmb

I was also bad at using mortar

[cosmic yew]

Im EUs rank 1 mortar user

thats my item

but mercury just feels awkward

What koalifier mentioned is valid, i used to omega abuse tapping mortar for self-peel

but i still think its a bad idea to have vulnerable on this

[rigid sigil]

You were good at getting hit by mortar :)

[keen ferry]

https://tenor.com/view/war-vietnam-ptsd-shell-shock-moment-gif-3022747568394546158

[fathom cosmos]

wat

thats 1 month ago lol what

[cosmic shell]

Honestly, you can explain it any way you want, but the fact is that in practice it's horrible to use

You ahve to know by heart which walls will eat your swap

Game needs to be intuitive, and the solution isn't to bloat the tooltip by explaining "If your projectile vector hits a terrain that is X units too high at the wrong angle the projectile will disappear"

Like seriously, dress is up all you want but the fact of the matter is that in practice it feels like shit to be on the receiving end of something that has an out-of-game obtuse explanation

And a player who's on the receiving end of swap disappearing won't go "Hmm, I should do my research on the intricacies of this ability's vectors"

No, they're gonna go "WHY THE FUCK DID MY SHIFT DISAPPEAR"

[graceful vine]

blame mobile discord lol

[brittle vapor]

Player on the recieving end will use it on a big wall one time and then realize it shouldnt work on giant walls

[cosmic shell]

Then why are certain walls too high? Why does the swap not just swap you against the wall? Since the projectile hits the side of it

I would take just teleporting as high as swap can take me even if it doesn't put me on top of the wall

Why is Void's swap the only ability in the game that can simply just not work as an intended feature??

[radiant saddle]

What are the devs thoughts on defensive abilities? 😏

[fair shoal]

How are there 400 new messages since yesterday? I can't keep up anymore

[chilly parrot]

if you have clips of it disappearing I'm happy to look at them, but if you're trying to throw the swap directly into a giant wall of rocks idk what to tell you, that's never going to work

[bleak garden]

Id love to know too Actually...

[frigid spoke]

Imo cope with the meta: bans are just made for ppl trynna void the meta.

Because complaining about something and being like "ban it, they're using it, it's too op" when you can do the same thing, is the level of argument of a 5 year old.

[cosmic yew]

People returned to scrims after it was announced that wukong can be banned

but its only temporary retention

as of next weekend theres a very large chance scrims are fully dead

this weekend saw another 4 teams quit

[frigid spoke]

Welp if people are crybabies, not much to do about that

Also scrims /=/ community

scrims = top play

They don't organize patches and hunters for top plays

but for the community and lesser skilled people to have fun

But yea game is dying it's sad

[cosmic yew]

we were literally talking about scrims bans

and suddenly ur going off the rails about how scrims dont represent the community lmfao

[frigid spoke]

Because retention is not for scrims

monkey

lmao

retention is global community

are you

dull?

[cosmic yew]

thanks for the wonderful conversation mate 👍

[wet flower]

https://tenor.com/view/tryan-tryan-meme-tryan-memecoin-memecoin-memecoin-tryan-gif-17435284759652386857

[frigid spoke]

"let's patch wukong for scrims players"

Maybe one day people will understand that devs work for the 99%, not the 1%

(also don't know why this thread was never closed in the first place, OP never reported a bug lol, was just malding he got spiked from fog)

[cosmic yew]

thanks for the wonderful conversation mate 👍

[upbeat gyro]

Pretty sure its bugged in BR too. Feels like I'm never at full speed when podracing anymore even when I intentionally reset.

[radiant saddle]

@chilly parrot

[sand folio]

Can i have some

[radiant saddle]

When it's done

Will be ready around 1pm

[sand folio]

That looks so yummy i forgot what this thread was about

[vapid zinc]

@chilly parrot are yall aware of wukong not getting kills with the clone

https://medal.tv/es/games/supervive/clips/kXhAdNuebrZOfLHGf?invite=cr-MSw5QlcsMzExNTkwMDM5&v=4

as you can see here, on the top right the game gave me the kill

but it didnt count on the kill count

[sick vector]

But thing is if you do it right you can still use it on big walls, it just has nuance. Like I said before if he jumped in first clip before casting I'm pretty sure it works there and in his second clip I tp'd correctly in that spot here:

But broski wants to be mad. 'Fuck yo explanation lemme mald' :^) Is it frustrating for ability to go on cd without going off? Yes! If you know why it doesn't work then it's on you chief. Are there outliers (bugs?) where it still doesn't seem to make sense? Yes! Dev explained why it works how it does and gave pretty good reasoning against the reasonable idea of 'let me just tp to the top of terrain it's in.'

'This is how the ability works' Reasonable person: 'Okay cool I'll keep that in mind.' @cosmic shell : Fuck you I don't need your explanations

[sterile bone]

This is stupid cus wukong is actively ruining normal games as well...

[sterile bone]

I love how I still get hit behind walls while he wasn't even on my screen and it's stupid hard to hear him but supposedly it isn't; with everything else going on it's so fucking hard to hear the chime sound his rmb makes.

Wukong is bouta be like shiv and take 5 patches be balanced ._.

[cosmic shell]

It's undeniably poor UX for an in-game behavior to have an unintuitive arbitrary "explanation", it's really not that fucking complicated man

It would be much more logical, instinctive, and player friendly behavior for swap to TP you where the projectile lands on the wall's surface (so against the wall in the air, but not on top of it) instead of simply killing the ability - hell, I think I speak for everyone when I say we would even take a CD refund on a cancelled shift

Otherwise, expecting your players to learn such case-specific interactions through frustrating trial and error instead of allowing them to apply universal rules instinctively is real clown shit

[chilly parrot]

Oh fuck yes

[keen ferry]

would it be possible to get folders for friendslist

[chilly parrot]

damn I'm tryin' to just drool looking at this meat being cooked and you hit me with a feature request in reply to that smh

[keen ferry]

[lethal vault]

I got this…
Koalifier is the bug/gameplay guy, that’s not a bug or gameplay 🙂

[keen ferry]

-# shakes fist

erm it would make my gameplay more enjoyable

[sterile bone]

So... is it poasibke to unnerf the hudson yank? Pretty please 🥺 👉👈

[hoary talon]

thoughts on having separate keybinds for abilities that do different things depending on state?

i.e oath spin dash/shield bash or brall rmb

[delicate bronze]

@chilly parrot can u say team to fix RP counter

its annoying af

[wary stirrup]

Ah yes

If: Broken
Then: Fix

[jade lagoon]

reeeeeeee number dont go upppp waaaaaa

[fathom cosmos]

honestly would be really cool to have a rage system for last alive instead of beacons. i doubt thatll ever happen any time soon since theyre focused on making hunters and BR stuff but that idea should be looked at if u guys have time.

way more fun to try and win when outnumbered with a buff than it is to just lose because they have base camp and u cant cap it with multiple ppl fighting u.

[silk rover]

please

the amount of times

i dash in instead of parry cuz my shield breaks

makes me sad

[lethal vault]

So they would just do nothing if they you don't meet the conditions for the conditional bind? Like Brall Air slam & not being in the air?

Would that be the idea?

[hoary talon]

yes I have died hundreds of times to this

until I switched off dash to cursor

but idk if there is a bug because I would get the shield bash visuals but then shield would break and I would dash in

maybe it is not giving invulnerability immediately

[lethal vault]

That sounds like it could be client prediction to me

Client thinks you shield bash, triggers the visuals, server says no, the shield was already broke and you dashed.

[hoary talon]

could also be that

I used to play on 5ms but now on 30-40ms

cant remember if it used to happen

[next dome]

oh so its a bug? im having that same issue i think

[minor silo]

It's not quite a bug, has more to do with how stupid the RP system is and how it doesn't properly update to not give extra information about revives

[radiant saddle]

I feel bad that this is your only social media / media experience so I'm yeeting you some normie shit to better your experience

This was actually the best pulled pork I've ever made

The crust was perfect. Soaking the apple chips for 30 minutes was perfect. Before I put it in the oven I quartered two apples and two onions and lined them around the edges of the map

They disintegrated over the four hour cook time in the oven

And it was so good

I've struggled with the specific time to soak the wood chips before smoking and 30 minutes seems ideal

I'm just in awe of how it came out

Served it over saffron rice with salada baladi and tzatziki

[chilly parrot]

Wow this sounds incredible!!

[radiant saddle]

You do a 24 dry brine with 100g salt 100g sugar 25g garlic (minced) and 7.5g thyme

Phenomenal

[vapid zinc]

wine and sugar on toast

beats everything

@swift furnace

[tawdry lion]

What? Show me some of dat

[tawdry lion]

Holy

I gotta try this

Do you like toast the slice beforehand

Or you sog it up then you toast it?

Or you just take it in non toasted like a man

Also how much sugar

Is honey a good substitute?

What if you just use honey mead

🧠

[chilly parrot]

this is either bomb as fuck or gross and I have no idea which

[chilly parrot]

I was just starting to get into cooking meat well then I had kids so doing anything at all other than work/children/game pretty much vanished

[radiant saddle]

That's what I'm not afraid of, but nervous for. Right now I can get up at 4:45 am and spend 7 hours on pork. Can I do that when my wife and I have kids? It's an unknown

[vapid zinc]

maiby both...

[spice chasm]

@chilly parrot On another note. When are we fixing the grappling hook techs? There's a few interactions that just shouldn't exist and have been in the game for too long (looking at beebo for example) :

1. Beebo bomb + grappling hook: https://www.twitch.tv/vzorlandos/clip/BreakableRamshackleMartenDBstyle-NKxCb3kuoTDwFiZo?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time
2. Grappling hooking to terrain + glider cancel (basically old tech where you fly high up into the sky - can get clip if needed)
3. Grappling hook + glider + grappling hook - Causes a buggy extremely fast continuous momentum in one direction (can be combined with beebo bomb/jump pad for additional effect - can also get clip if needed)

[wary stirrup]

I HARD disagree with the bebomb thing, that is one of the coolest and most precise tech in the game, and stuff like that will get people to play more, cause its cool as hell.

Add more stuff like that, dont remove the hard tech, I dont give a fuck if it removed the compeditive balance.

Sky cart, should go away, the bomb tech should not

[granite bear]

cool as hell for who i like that some ppl never think about the part of ppl that experience it its very unfun to play against

looks great yeah but still demotivates playing when you dont have much counterplay

[wary stirrup]

Okay, so that play. If cart did not pick him up from the skybox it would have been a far less oppressive play

The issue isnt the bomb tech

But that car can grab from stupid heights

It needs to work like Bishop ult

[granite bear]

issue is beebo and grapple being able to do stuff other characters cant

its beebo cart superspeed situation reskinned

[wary stirrup]

The issue is not grapple+ beebo in that clip, its the cart, if he had to land then ult it would not be an argument of it being op

[granite bear]

so you are fine with beebo touching heaven and not having weird ass r hitbox y axis that catches?

[wary stirrup]

Yes, cause its not something everyone can do, and he doesn't have a way to do it all the time for free like Hoverwings Bishop, and its extremely hard and tight to do, it requires a lot of skill to do. If the Tonk Tonk actually had to hit the same z axis it would be a far better interaction

[spice chasm]

It requires no skill what so ever its literally the easiest thing to do what are you even saying

Just do practice for 10s and you have the timing down

Its on a 15s CD with 2 charges so he ALWAYS has it up

[granite bear]

so you are fine with that? it took me 5 minutes to learn

you could perma cc and kill instantly with little counterplay

[spice chasm]

Even if sky car was removed (which it should) you can still do insane kidnaps on champions with lesser to no mobility (which Civinix just showcased)

[granite bear]

ofc clip could be better but why bother hope you get the point

[spice chasm]

And if you get hit by the car your just dead with Beebo in hes current state with bomb + 1% + rmb spam

Like its so degenerate

[spice chasm]

Worst part is you can do double grapple to the bomb (cancel the first grapple with glider) and you fly to narnia btw

[granite bear]

ye dont have 3 star not playing much (armoury moment)

you could use flex tube or whatever just to perma cc enemy/ use pink fist to double down

[spice chasm]

Just watch this guy for a few mins and you start to see the problem. Hes TURBO abusing every possible bug/techy interaction on beebo in ranked XDD
https://www.twitch.tv/vzorlandos

[granite bear]

which is another beebo problem having infinity cc for no reason

[silk rover]

beebos design has always been incredibly toxic

said this from day 1

basically impossible hero to balance

[granite bear]

i like the idea its just the possibilities he has

and the rng zeep 💀

[jade lagoon]

and ult stun range being 2 miles, and orb being "alive" and able to res/cap/rev even tho hes not a healer or needs it in his kit to be even stronger, and the "1%", and... etc.

[wary stirrup]

Beebo has, honestly, one of, if not, the cooledt designed kits in the game, they should lean into stuff like his kit

IMO

[granite bear]

but if you dont play beebo coded character you lose by design

how is it fun?

[silk rover]

imo if they just gutted his numbers

made him into a tank

he'd be alot more reasonable

the issue is he has so much bullshit

[granite bear]

i would love bat being able to reflect projectile

[silk rover]

and he always does infinte damage

[granite bear]

instead of weird stun

[silk rover]

i mean the amount of knockbacks that stun into a wall

is so high

it actually tilts me

[granite bear]

bat would go harder if it would be ability with real cd

no autoattack

[elfin orbit]

Beebo is so fun to fight. He is so cool with how he just infinitely throws you around

[granite bear]

also you can charge bat and use that pink fist just to make sure enemy wont escape

[silk rover]

playing vs beebo as a melee char

is so fucking unfun

[granite bear]

(bat still charges)

[granite bear]

ragdoll simulator ez

[wary stirrup]

The only damage beebo should have is Max Charge bomb

That's it

I love that you had to play around that

[elfin orbit]

If that was the case and he was all about setting it up he would be more fine

But it has the issue of overloading one thing in his kit

And the rest of the kit would have to be all about setting it up

[jade lagoon]

and even that would be fine if it didnt stun for 2 millennia and did do soo much dmg or combo pot. too

[silk rover]

Tbh 0second knockback is always super toxic

Was toxic on oatg

And even more toxic on beebo

Same with brall to a lesser degree

Tetra aswell

[grizzled mulch]

Eh- Brall is worse for me. Beebo and Oath you can space vs due to the charge time- Brall just goes brrr when close and cancels dashes etc. more annoying imo.

[wary stirrup]

At least we got rid of I frames on Dash, I genuinely am glad that is gone, and am glad it will only ever come back on ults

[grizzled mulch]

If they increase TTK- I think game might actually get good again, then we just need more depth and counterplay options. TC kinda cooking but really need to fix this high spam high dmg meta.

[silk rover]

Which dasg

Joule u mean?

[wary stirrup]

ye

[silk rover]

Another l take I'm afraid

[wary stirrup]

Lmao

[minor silo]

Nah I frames on Joule dash was ass squared

[sterile bone]

Beebo players really love getting stupid tech that is unfun to interact with for literally anyone that isn't the one doing it.

Then they basically shove every complaint about the beebo tech to the side like it doesn't matter. That's not targeted directly at you, all beebo players are like that.

[minor silo]

They did massacre the hunter, but I frames in a 0-5 seconds cd ability is shit

[granite bear]

It would be fine if joule wasn't entirely based on dash dmg

[silk rover]

joule just feels awful without i frames

removing them removes so much skill expression from the hunter

[minor silo]

And Joule feels awful to play against with the iframes

[silk rover]

her issue was always that she just did too much damage

[minor silo]

Make her shift her ultimate with a 39+ second cd if she fails it and she can have them back for all i care

30*

[wary stirrup]

LMAO

Skill expression

Thats a joke

[silk rover]

thank god you arent in charge of balancing the game

[minor silo]

Thank god you aren't either

[silk rover]

damn u got me good

but yea no iframes means

she really cant do much aggro plays anymore

feels so clunky to play her

they removed her iframes 2 times before

[minor silo]

And i frames means you can't punish her ever

[silk rover]

and everytime they undid it

no you can easily punish her rofl

you just need to understand how her kit works

there was 2 major issues with joule

1 was when her shift has a low CD so even if you didnt reset it you'd have it back fast

e.g with timeshearing

the other issue was when the TTK was so low she'd 1shot you off 1 combo

none of the issues come from iframes

[sterile bone]

Technically it'd add more cus it means you can't just blatantly ignore what every other character is doing and just go in and be fine.

[silk rover]

no because it limits the ability to outplay things using the iframe

and instead its just a generic dash

so the skill ceiling gets lower

like you have far less options of what you can do with the dash now

[sterile bone]

You have to bettwr to outplay... that's the point. And if they buff jpule now I think they'd be kind of insane

[minor silo]

Joule literally was able to just dash through Hudson wires with her iframes

[silk rover]

yea ofc

[minor silo]

Big brain time

Skill ceiling 1000

[silk rover]

the self reports

are insane in this thread

[minor silo]

Literally spam dash and nothing hits you, combine it with life steal and you are immortal because

[silk rover]

the fact you said lifesteal

shows you've never played the hunter

because you never built lifesteal on her ever

[minor silo]

Omnivamp same shit

[silk rover]

its such a dogshit stat on her

the thing is

spam dash only works

if you actually hit ur shit

you have to stack to 4

and then dash through someone

or hit RMB and dash through orb

[sterile bone]

Joule can already confirm her dash pretty damn easily without iframs. There's just some bs interactions rhat happen sometimes.

Saw madly dash through a ghost full stacks and get stunned and it do no dmg lol

[wary stirrup]

Joule pre Iframe removal was so fucking easy to play as it was hilarious

[silk rover]

yea but its not about confirming the dash

[wary stirrup]

I miss her Jazz hands RMB though

[silk rover]

its about the ability to outplay more things using dash

[silk rover]

coming from a bishop player

[wary stirrup]

She's easier then Bishop IMO

[silk rover]

joule was only easy to play when she has patches where CDR was OP

and she could dash and miss and still have dash

[silk rover]

nah no chance

[minor silo]

I'll have to stop you there

[silk rover]

joule when CDR is weak

is one of the hardest hunters to play for sure

like on timeshearing patch i agree

she was pretty easy

cuz even if u missed

it basically didnt matter

[sterile bone]

Being able to out play does not equal skill expression tho. In this game that might seem like the case but it really isn't.

[silk rover]

i mean if you limit the options she has for her dash

you limit what she can do

aka you limit the skill experssion

yes you have to be more careful with ur dash now

but that leads to you using dash in a way thats less risky

and often times less skillful

like you have to be smarter now

but requires much less mechanics to pilor

pilot

[minor silo]

Yeah because it was peak skill to be able to contest anything and anyone and one shot them if you succeed and just ult out if you fail

[sterile bone]

But you don't have to still. It's like how is it more skillful to just be able to completely ignore others abilities versus having to actually think about what they are doing before going in

[silk rover]

surely this is a real argument

[silk rover]

because when you can outplay peoples abilites it allows you to rely on your mechanics

its not like u just press the button and you ignore everything

it requires timing

and requires aim in order to dash in a spot thats benificial

[sterile bone]

That timing is not tbat tight bro.

[hoary talon]

Chipsa stop getting ragebaited

[silk rover]

no true

but its still something that you can easily mess up

[silk rover]

its fun

[minor silo]

Yeah if you play with your feet while hanging upside down blindfolded

[sterile bone]

Just that your points are pretty damn stupid if I'm being honest.

[silk rover]

i'd pay money to see you play old joule in high elo lobbies

cuz im 90% sure you'd get farmed on CD

[silk rover]

i think ur arguemnt is that you want joule to have to think more about her dash

[minor silo]

I'd pay money for you to stop talking

[silk rover]

and be more focused on her decsions

[minor silo]

[silk rover]

where as i prefer her to have a higher mechanical skill ceiling

and have more options to outplay

[silk rover]

argument won, another noob down

gg

[minor silo]

Supervive if we listen to chipsa

Supervive now

[granite bear]

would that work for me 🥺

[sterile bone]

You say that but the reasons you give for why having iframs = more skill expression are just kindnof dumb, and not really even reasons why iframs coukd gove her more skill expression.

[jade lagoon]

i spat all over my screen... 😭

[chilly parrot]

I was just thinking about these yesterday, thanks for the clip

[minor silo]

Bro yaps about high skill ceiling and outplaying and bullshit like that

Does he even play the game anymore?

Legit never seen him play anything but the top 3 hunters every patch

[cosmic yew]

even cooler when face of the game kom tick tries to justify it

[jade lagoon]

i do love how this thread is just balance talk and cycling thru stuff, its fun^^

[granite bear]

whole discord is dementia cycling

[minor silo]

I like how disconnected from reality high elo players are

[jade lagoon]

am i high elo

[cosmic yew]

what did we do 🙁

[minor silo]

Ask for Joule iframes and saying oath is perfectly balanced

[cosmic yew]

did u speak to chipsa by chance....

is this a chipsa reference....

[jade lagoon]

😭

[minor silo]

Don't scroll up

[cosmic yew]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1310355627943395428/1409063027659247637/image.png?ex=68ac03b4&is=68aab234&hm=63fb6726435e92e88ef322f0ce7493f0c89428931949e93f1bcffae46ac00137&

[sterile bone]

Well your at it can you make his car cancel when he gets grounded? Having a beebo ult through my wires like it's nothing and get unpunished and I literally can't dodge cus I happened to already have used my dash, I literally tried to walk to the side but I couldn't cus hudson too slow 😭

[silk rover]

the reason having iframes gives her more skill expression is because it enables her to make more plays and more aggresive plays due to the ability to negate other abilites

in theory if we follow ur logic we should remove the ignore projectiles from her dash aswell in order to increase her skill cap

[silk rover]

also saying that i say oath is balanced is insane

im the no1 person in the world who thinks oath is OP

oath has been the best hunter in the game for like the last 1+years

[granite bear]

you dont have # bro

[sterile bone]

That still has close to nothing to do with skill expression tho.

[silk rover]

how?

giving her more options

[sterile bone]

Joule's skill expression will basically always be the same, and it is basically the same now as when she had iframs.

[silk rover]

generally will increase her skill experssion

yea but now you cant outplay many things that you could before

so she might be more balanced

but shes balanced in a way that lowers her skill cap

[sterile bone]

I'm pretty sure I've already said ability to out play does not equal skill expression. Which you seem to be unable to understand.

[silk rover]

then we just fundementally disagree

[wary stirrup]

Skill expression is someones ability to show their time and experience on a hunter and play differently then someone who just started, I frames on Dash just meant everyone constantly dashed the exact same way

There was no expression

[silk rover]

this is literally the opposite of the case though

now ur options to dash are much more limited than before

also regardless of skill expression

it feels fucking awful to not have iframes on dash

like for me it makes her 10x less fun to play

you get hit by so much more random shit because of it

[spice chasm]

You dont agree with my opinion? = your too stupid to understand 👍

very intelligent

[cosmic yew]

Ive always said it should work like bkb in dota, there should be certain spells that she cant dash through like Void ultimate or hudson barbed wires, but apart from that joule should have immunity

for reference what bkb is

[sterile bone]

https://discord.com/channels/852642429105995786/1408857890323828837
This is something else I'd like looked at. As of late the knockback on hudson's dash has become a lot more inconsistent.

The post isn't necessarily correct cus I say the knockback improvement buff a whole back didn't do anything, not true it did at the time it's just worse now than before that patch.
I love somwone getting knocked to the side of the direction I dashed ._.

[sterile bone]

He literally just ignored the fact i said that. And the rhing is that is literally just true. It's not even an opinion bro.

Give hudson 100x more dmg so he csn outplay more, boom more skill expression:)

[silk rover]

surely this is my argument

[lethal vault]

Tank beebo is fun, I liked playing that with RMB max before 1.0. Didn't seem very good though.

[silk rover]

yea agreed

i played it a bit in 1.0

vive + essence

its fun for sure

[lethal vault]

I think the chrono gauge interacting with RMB is weird because Ability Haste doesn't, and has never effect the RMB CD, but the new flat reduction items do.

[cosmic yew]

chrono gauge is insanely problematic as a item

[silk rover]

mostly i think flat CDR reduction is a problem more so than the item

if it gave % based it would be more reasonable

[sterile bone]

It nit having a cd will always make it a problem regardless

[cosmic yew]

especially since it procs twice on characters like crysta with the rmb etc

u get a spell down to 2sec CD and chrono gauge cuts that shit in half again, effectively 50% CDR on a item

[lethal vault]

4 times if you get both passive procs too

Bungee can also trigger it, like try to count the chrono-gauge procs here lol, it's a crazy number of procs.

[sterile bone]

Cyrsta is balanced guys i swear.

Idk why tf this stuff doesn't have a cd and why tf do her passive procs count as abilities? Other characters' lmb passive procs don't count as abilities yet her do, wtf is this inconsistency

[amber hawk]

Reading the last 2 hours of this thread has given me brain rot

Chipsa don’t engage

I frames are OP when only one or two chars have them AND the rest of the cast doesn’t have an equivalent defensive option of their own, but just because something is OP doesn’t mean it’s not more skill expressive. I frames create combat conversation and insane amounts of skill expression, tell me you’ve never played a video game with iframes especially at a high level without telling me you haven’t played a video game with iframes especially at a high level

But chipsa isn’t arguing keep her as she is and add iframes, he was saying with less damage and longer cd’s (in order to reduce the frustration of how OP she is) and then re-adding the skill expressive defensive option of the iframes

Raises her skill ceiling while also keeping her balanced

Anyway not engaging any more, but chipsa was right a ton of self reports in here. Ironic calling him and his takes stupid

When you guys just self exposed

[minor silo]

[sterile bone]

He basically said "more ability to outplay equals skill expression" that is just wrong. Just because you can outplay stuff bettwr doesn't mean it is more skill expressive.

Tell me wukong infinite bhop was skill expressive, you can't cus it wasn't. And that's the main fucking reason he gave for keeping iframs.

I literally said something he said was wrong cus it is wrong. That is all.

[hoary talon]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/807809192537882647/1383826136428974100/togif.gif

[sterile bone]

#1397859784811872296 message

Read this and tell me that seems like good logic for why it increases her skill expression.

If that isn't what he thinks he truly portrayed that so fucking badly

[hoary talon]

logic seems fine to me

if you have more options

then there is more skill expression

[minor silo]

Yes but then we have 1 character that has 10 options per situation while the average character has like 2 or 3

[blissful umbra]

Idk how this is related to the thread topic but big agree with this as a joule abuser. Beebo autos should not invalidate the character

[jade lagoon]

thread topic isnt this thread anymore, this has become a general bug and balance thread^^

[blissful umbra]

Poggers

[jade lagoon]

were getting good comms and discussion from it tho

[sterile bone]

That's nit really how it is in practice tho. Like just cus you can outplay more doesn't mean the character suddenly has more skill expression. And giving more tools while other hunters having literally just 3 tools while some get to have legit like 20 seems like some ass balancing if you ask me.

And like u said this multiple times, going in and getting back out and basically one shotting at the same time, whole just ignoring what everyone else is doing isn't really more skill expressive. And he countered that by "you have more options to outplay tho", like what

[jade lagoon]

fun to play and either fun or cool to play in to is atm honestly the only balance that should matter.

[minor silo]

No, fun to play against should be an equal priority

If not higher

[blissful umbra]

If that were what chipsa were saying I would agree with you, but I really don’t think it was. Adding iframes adds skill expression because it adds the choice:

“Do I dash to dodge this important ability, or is it more important to save it for the passive proc?” bundling that with longer cooldowns means that decision point is going to have more weight. If your opponent creates a situation where a dash does both of those things, they’ve almost certainly already misplayed

[minor silo]

Because no one's gonna stick around if every other hunter is the equivalent of Zed, Mel or release Kassadin

[blissful umbra]

As it stands it’s just “save the deny the dash ability for when she dashes!” Which is boring

[hoary talon]

https://tenor.com/view/ragebait-rage-bait-lol-lmao-gif-3554026694133497645

[blissful umbra]

I think lowering joule’s burst/cds to put invulnerability back into her kit is a very fair exchange. Assassin joule is cringe and unhealthy for the game imo

[graceful vine]

This is one of my main issues with the game lol, if you play any of the "classic" characters you're just at a big disadvantage against things like Beebo and wukong. Only good classic character is shiv and everyone keeps whining about her and she keeps getting gutted when it's her itemization that's the issue.

[sterile bone]

Maybe. I didn't even see him ever once mention longer cds. Like all I really said was that his points were kinda stupid and what he was saying did not make sense for why it'd add "skill expression", which literally it did not.

Dash haste would almost be guaranteed to become a problem on joule if they did this as well.

[sterile bone]

Can you name one character like this? 🙂
Cus i cannot.

[wary stirrup]

I fucling hate the "Self expose" shit, its so fucking pathetic to say a statement isnt correct cause you are calling them bad

[sterile bone]

maybe i misunderstood his points but they just seemed really stupid. Wasn't even really trying to say thag he was wrong just that his points sucked.

[rigid sigil]

Aw man this thread is in the negativity part of it's cycle again.

Wake me up when we're in the next Koalifier arc

[graceful vine]

Lol

[sterile bone]

Give it like a day and a half probs

[rigid sigil]

@void fable Can we change the thread title to "Koalifier's Bizarre Adventure"?

Seems more apt at this point

[wary stirrup]

Yea, it got "me higher MMR only my opinion matters" toxic :L

[blissful umbra]

Honestly I really don’t think the dashe haste options are good enough that they would become problematic, personally. I think hightops will always be the preferred boots, and in other slots raw cdr options are better for joule imo (thanks to resets). But I’m not the most skilled player so grain of salt I guess.

Even if it did, they could just balance around that 🤷‍♂️

[jade lagoon]

idts either 😭

[sterile bone]

This is probably correct. Just it'd likely feel like bs for joule to be immortal most of the time.

The main reason I feel like there is to add iframs back is cus it is insanly frustrating to get knocked out of your dash as joule. And there are genuinely somw stupid interactions that wouldn't exist if she had iframs.

[minor silo]

Zeph, Celeste, Elluna are the only ones that come close

Imo at least

[sterile bone]

No way zeph, that guy does so much damage i just don't see him evwr being fun to fight. And his self healing is stupid.

I could see the others tho

[minor silo]

Carbine maybe?

There's like 3 carbine players though so ifk

[sterile bone]

I can actually agree with carbine. He feels pretty good to fight. And I say that as a hudson main 🙂

[wary stirrup]

Carbine is fucking great

[sterile bone]

We do love carbine.

[blissful umbra]

It’s definitely inflammatory and I don’t want to defend that, but to their credit it is just kinda true that in other competitive games it would be assumed knowledge. It’s baked into how so many other games are talked about already, so implying it is different in supervive’s case is frustrating for people who spend time in those other spaces.

Even the nice way of saying it is probably going to rub someone the wrong way methinks

[sterile bone]

It's not even necessarily wrong cus i don't play many competitive games but it's a pretty bad way to defend an opinion, it objectively is.

[wary stirrup]

Its that and just the tone

..... tbf its mostly the Tone

[silk rover]

my goat

[granite bear]

oath? OATH?! OAAATH?!

[graceful vine]

Oath isn't quite as oppressive as he used to be, thankfully. Still extremely strong especially with some comps

[sterile bone]

The main issue with shrike post 1.0 was that you only won when she fucked up. Pre 1.0 you could pretty reliably dodge hwr shots, I'm assuming if I could do it on hudson every other character could. They really fucked her with the bullet speed increase ngl

[graceful vine]

Yeah I swear I'm not crazy that Shrike is so much harder to dodge now it feels like I need to burn a dash more often than not especially if the shrike has any hands at the game

She kinda just makes any area a no go zone

I dunno, I'm done the battlepass have all hunters unlocked maybe It's just time to take a break from this unbalanced misguided game

It had potential and they completely shot it with 1.0, and they kinda lost the sauce if they're releasing shit like Wukong and nerfing worse or barely on par characters constantly instead of admitting armory is half the problem

[delicate bronze]

No

U dont play this game anymore, u build most random shit on every hunter

[sterile bone]

Carbine will probably only feel "bad" to fight if a singke round is enough to kill even tsnky hunters. Which i don't think he's had that dmg since release. And now I never experience that kind of shit

[silk rover]

the only thing i dislike about carbine is his ult killing wisps

esp when compared to how bad shrike is at it

[sterile bone]

I still dislike the resets from wisp killing. I'd be fine with it if it didn't reset

[cosmic yew]

You must be new to the channel, its been months since this was about wukong

[sterile bone]

I don't think this is even a month old 💀

[granite bear]

its exactly 1 month old

[sterile bone]

Damn

My concept of time is cooked

[void fable]

I'm kinda beating a dead horse at this point, but originally she was nerfed during the "purple abyss specialist era" where abyss specialist joule was making her literal god (also shift reset on dash potentially but I digress).

Abyss specialist got reworked like 3 times because it just kept creating problematic interactions. Yet we nerfed the character instead. And then, Joule was left in a nerfed state in a game where abyss specialist doesn't exist anymore.

My point is not to point fingers and be like "you shouldn't have fucked up in the past, TC" because it doesn't really help anything. But I want to point out that nerfing a character because of an item that creates problematic interactions on every character that wants it is something we should strive to avoid in the future.

Joule at the very least is on your screen, and you have an understanding of what is happening when you're fighting her. This is very different from characters that come from off screen and one shot with 0.1s to react to the threat (beebo fast car, wukong).

I landed my greatest dunk ever (or at least my favorite dunk) because Afro (amazing Joule player) didn't have Iframes on her dash anymore. Yet, I would rather them just give em back the Iframes. Let the Joule players have their fun. Longer cooldown to compensate? Sure.

Unless you guys want every single character in the game to work the same and not have anything special about them. But what kind of game is that? Sounds boring AF to me

IMO, every character should have some little things that make them special. Things that no other character does in the same way they can. This is what makes characters unique and makes people go "that Celeste hunter looks cool, I wanna main her."

If we take that all away, we're left with a homogenized sludge of hunters that all do the same shit or are grouped into "classes" with one mage, for example, better than the rest of the mages, so everyone plays that one mage when they need a mage...rather than thinking "how could this specific benefit that this one character gives give me an advantage in X-stormshift/situation/match."

---

Do I hate Wukong? Yup.
Do I think they should have taken away his ability to dunk? Nope.
Do I think I should know there is a Wukong charging his pole before I get one shot from off screen so I can have time to react that is within reasonable human expectation? Yup.
Do I think Wukong should have to put himself at risk over the abyss like the rest of the hunters in order to dunk? Yup.
Do I want to see his cool tree hops or pole or podracing taken away? Nope

[wary stirrup]

Podracing is lame as fuck TBH

[void fable]

Sure, but it feels nice for a lot of players, so that's fine with me, even if I bitch about it.

[lavish raft]

Can't catch no monkeys I hate podracing ;-;

[sterile bone]

Depends on the character in my eyes. Like o hate it on wukong cus it takes away from his tree dash resets. It's still used a lot just podracing feels like it overshadows it.
I don't mind it much on oath and zeoh if they balance with the idea if it existing.(like they tried to do with jin)

[wary stirrup]

The thing is, its extremely unhealthy, its a no mana dash that takes a short amount of time to master and completely detracts from what makes him cool.

A wu getting away due to movement on trees?
Fucking awesome
A wu getting away cause he Pod-raced?
Fucking lame and honestly quite skill less

[void fable]

I mean, there is the option to slow it down, rather than remove it.

I can think of plenty of monkeys I could have caught if the podracing gave like, half the velocity bonus

[grizzled mulch]

If everyone could podrace, no problem, but like you mentioned earlier, everyone having the same kit is boring

Some things just arent healthy, free movement that is hard to punish is one of them

[void fable]

Well, rather than everyone having podracing, some characters can have it, and we can give cool things to other characters.

For example, leave podracing and adjust it. Give Hudson and Celeste their windring interaction with dash back.

Mobility options specific to hunters makes things cool.

Then we can tune the numbers from there

[jade lagoon]

SUPER BASED SPY POSTING 🔥

[grizzled mulch]

I agree to a degree- Its fun to play as, but is it healthy/balanced/fun to play against?

[sterile bone]

I loved the winding dash on hudson... was genuinely one of the funnest things ever. And since he's normally slow it was nice.

It would be awesome if they tried to give every character a way to go fast and for some podracing just happened to be that and for other it was aomething cool like the windring dash thing.

[void fable]

Maybe a character is supposed to be immobile. We can give that guy or girl power when they are just chillin there.

rather than mobility options

But whatever they give/leave on a character needs to feel good

[cosmic yew]

people forget how OP windrings were on elluna aswell 😔

[void fable]

I keep seeing people throw around the word "unhealthy" like a new buzzword. But we forget that the most unhealthy thing of all is a boring game.

[cosmic yew]

que.... restrictions.....

[void fable]

Remember when SV was advertised as a sandbox? Can we all pls remember that?

Not saying we shouldn't attempt to balance stuff, but let's take power away from the boring parts, not the fun ones.

[void fable]

This is a way different issue though. The games at the top end where you can't queue with others wouldn't be so bad if we had enough top players playing at one time to make a skilled lobby. Although, it would still probably be more fun if you could duo or something.

Allow trio and you might as well just make a ladder for teams to play in (already suggested this before, but something akin to ranked 5s on league back in Season 3 or something as a seperate queue). Not sure if we have the numbers for that yet though. Would be fun imo.

[graceful vine]

Shiv is in the same boat lol they'll probably keep gutting her instead of addressing the items she abuses :/

[cosmic yew]

we did... and then they left

so many people would still be playing if this wasnt the case btw

i cant state that enough

even if its not 24/7, atleast give us a 2-3 hour timeframe every day where its possible to party-que

there are so many options but none are being taken, now the core community is in shambles

[jade lagoon]

has anyone done a survey to ex-players? and their reasons to why theyre ex

(the word that would come out of that is likely balancing, tho...)

[cosmic yew]

i could get over 100 players to fill this out

but idk what it accomplishes

if i post it publically its just another doomer post

if i post it to a dev i doubt they would read it

[jade lagoon]

😭

[cosmic yew]

since its feedback they know about most likely

[jade lagoon]

yhhh ig it would only be peace of mind for the people still playing

[cosmic yew]

the soloque experience in this game is just miserable and their solution is to make everyone soloque

now almost everyone is miserable....

we found this simple lifehack of just not queing 🔥

[jade lagoon]

come arena :3c

[cosmic yew]

arena is ruined

thats the biggest problem

[jade lagoon]

then youll only pray for balancing

[cosmic yew]

you snowball from round 1-2

and u buy contract killer

and then zzzzzzz

[jade lagoon]

shhhhhhh

fun will return, surely

[cosmic yew]

if they disable contract killer perk and give everyone the same money per round sure

but right now its literally so unfun

[jade lagoon]

everything is maxed in arena why not; either max items or,.. no items.

[wary stirrup]

The solo Queue people beat the Squad Queue people during the last discussion, the Squad party didn't show up to the discussion good enough and they lost.

[jade lagoon]

(no items might make them be able to balance hunters and then max items might make them be able to balance items)

[cosmic yew]

😭 😭 😭

[wary stirrup]

Blame your representatives

They failed you last year

[jade lagoon]

too real

[cosmic yew]

u do have bangers from time to time major pleasure

made me smirk

[jade lagoon]

arena still has squads, come arena ;3

(i cry myself to sleep and dream of Supervive)

[cosmic yew]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1405783574996844604/1409065133371822130/image.png?ex=68ac05aa&is=68aab42a&hm=e3cab11123247ab2845f3201011cffaed337ffcf2e6063706c0626086758de57&

[wary stirrup]

My whole thing is being funny

[cosmic yew]

like here is me literally a YEAR AGO speaking about not having fun in soloque

[wary stirrup]

Thats all I have

[cosmic yew]

and that i only reinstalled because playing with friends is fun af

[wary stirrup]

And pissing of people who think High MMR Ego is an alternative for a personality

(there are too many)

[cosmic yew]

i dont want to play with friends to get a competitive advantage i want to play with friends because... its fun :((

i want to run hoverwings bungee tetra and rocketship half the map into a slam while my friends call me stupid and we all laugh about it

and i want to do this in ranked where there are 3 man legend teams who are taking the game seriously just to die to me running a troll build....

[wary stirrup]

Yea, the whole argument of the solo party was that

A.) The deathsquads were ruining the game

B.) The leaderboard was not real cause the top players were just getting boosted by their squad

[cosmic yew]

none of these pleasure points exist anymore...

[cosmic yew]

A it partially true, B is just wrong

Back then we had unranked and ranked combined

[wary stirrup]

Oh yea, we know, but they were louder

[cosmic yew]

haha

that seems to be the case

[sterile bone]

I still remember a few games back then where I was absolutely dogging on some pre made squads in solo que... we were at a disadvantage but not like it was hopeless

[cosmic yew]

nah being a soloquer into 3man teams is hopeless

like that part is true

thats why i think best of both worlds u just enable trio-que for 2-3 hour timeframe per region every day

[sterile bone]

Now probably. It really wasn't back then which i find kind of funny.

[cosmic yew]

its honestly really good retention for high elo players

we had inhouses DAILY for months with 0 downtime days

that would basically accomplish a similar thing

[sterile bone]

I have hope this will happen next patch, it definitely will trust ._.

[cosmic yew]

I hate making doomer statements / posts i love the game

but the truth is, allot of us have now uninstalled

and if restrictions arent lifted in a way next patch, the game will also be uninstalled from many brains....

this sounds like a threat or something but its not my intention

i just see the general consensus in many of the communities is that finding a different game is the play unless that magically happens

[sterile bone]

It makes sense. The game is just funnest with friends.

I'll play as long as they have hudson so they'll never lose me. But others don't have a character in the game they live as much as I love hudson

[rigid sigil]

Hi I'm late to the podracing discussion but my take is that the game is balanced around mobility having cooldowns and every time a new podracing tech is found it breaks the game until it's either nerfed into obscurity or removed entirely. That's just what happens every time, an observation.

Hunters are designed with a certain mobility budget in mind that reflects the strengths of their kits. To have a mobility tech that is both faster and more consistent than dashes while having significantly reduced or no downsides at all is a balance nightmare and should be designed from the ground up for a kit to not disrupt the entire state of balance every other patch.

Power budgets are a necessity for the game to feel fair, podracing breaks power budgets and results in the hunters who have it becoming unfun and usually unfair to play against.

Every time we see a new podracing tech pop up it is the exact same story. Tech is found -> Hunter becomes uncatchable or inescapable -> Hunter defines the meta and becomes a slog to see in your game.

As a Wukong player: Please take away podracing so this hunter can be properly balanced.

[amber hawk]

🪞 maybe go read how vulture, bakaon, and you were all responding to chipsa. I don't care that you guys are bad, nor does that make your statement incorrect. However, if you anecdotally have been unable to pull or flesh out a system to the highest level (in this case a system with iframes, can be any game not just this one) then it is hard for you to understand it at the deepest level as well. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but that's also truth. Now can a bad player understand something deeply and just not be able to execute on it? Sure, but that is an exception not the rule (hence coach's sometimes are not high rank or highly skilled but they have deep understandings of the game, HOWEVER, a lot of top coach's we're previously top level players or high level but just not the best that they had to be relegated to coaching.) but you guys are also acting superior and we have comments of just straight up calling argument's "dumb" and "high elo is delusional and disconnected from reality" calling argument's or take's "fucking joke's" (I understand not just your words, but I was addressing ALL commenters so don't take this personal). But again, the irony in these comment's and even your own here is pretty astounding.

[bleak garden]

When the titanic sinks everyone has to drown together

Unfortunate 💔

[cosmic yew]

the thinker.... @bleak garden

[wary stirrup]

We all burn from the misktakes of our past

[silk rover]

this was the biggest issue

100%

the biggest reason why soloq happened

was this single mistake

[bleak garden]

Always bet on Solo Queue

[sterile bone]

"You can outplay more" say that isn't true never given a reason why it is. "You can make more aggressive plays" how does that = skill expression when you're just ignoring abilities with a 6 second ability that resets? Also never explained.

Stop talking about this. But non of you gave reasons as to why it equaled skill expression that made sense. And tou still haven't. Just complaining that we didn't understand what he was trying to say when it didn't make sense.

[rigid sigil]

I think Phenom's saying that it opens a lot more gameplay possibilities both offensive and defensive which does add depth to the decision-making and gameplay expression

Conversely I say it might reduce depth to play against. Just to play devil's advocate

[amber hawk]

I don't necessarily even care for this argument or that iframes add skill expression, I just wanted to humble you guys a little bit in the fact that the way in which you were addressing the topic toward Chipsa came from a place of complete superiority and that your argument is 100% correct (when I actually believe it's the exact opposite) and you also went about it in a belittling manner. Then when I address it in the same way you guys are it's "high-mmr, high elo toxic bad" lol. Anyway, I don't even care for this but just understand that you should go about defending/discussing points in a diff manner and understand that you may be wrong and don't be so entitlted and confidently wrong it looks even worse and will be called out

[void fable]

Utilization of Iframe to make plays vs. utilization of a dash that you know doesn't have an Iframe both require skill expression and use of the knowledge of the dash. But both cannot be used for the same scenario.

Having an iframe means that someone can go for a more aggressive play when timed correctly. Does it make it stronger? Yes. Does it mean players that don't even think about that kind of thing will get more value out of it when they use it? Yup. Does it open more options for high skill players? Certainly

Dashing in during that small window of Iframe, say with Joule dash requires very good timing and understanding of abilities and windows. This allows for players to make plays that would otherwise be impossible... possible, and in some of those cases, it allows for plays that require the ability to not only react to the opportunity, but to make the decision to do so. More options = more choices and more choices = harder to choose correct one.

Additionally, the windows on Iframes are pretty damn short. So using it properly requires precise timing and input, especially for aggressive plays that involve not only "dodging" an ability but also knowing that you can iframe it, stay safe while it's on cooldown (or kill before being punished), and achieve a result that is net positive for your team. (Also, it's not instant. The Joule player also has to account for minimum cast time on the dash).

I'm not sure if there is quantitative way to determine if iframe dash vs no iframe dash is objectively more skilled or not, but it's definitely not as simple as stronger = easier/less skilled.

[hoary talon]

idc what anyone thinks

having an iframe dash allows more skill expression

I don't even understand how ppl are arguing about this

ofc if they add the iframe back then you must take something else away such as dmg or cooldowns

[bleak garden]

anyway just posting this here for no reason

[granite bear]

what is worth noticing here

[bleak garden]

I like the dragon vive wisp pet

So cute

[vapid zinc]

he means the one that sends u into the air

[sterile bone]

This helps kind of but I didn't really play joule when she did have ifram so I can't really completely understand ever.

[jade lagoon]

the vivepup?

orrr?

[bleak garden]

yes that

[vapid zinc]

ur opinion doesnt count

[bleak garden]

He looks so cute there

🥰

[jade lagoon]

twice!

[sterile bone]

This is just one joule player, but madly has said he'd take the iframe for lgit 20% dmg nerf.

[lethal vault]

I wonder what would happen if instead of diminishing returns on doing it repeatedly, it started out low and got better as you spammed. Hard for me to evaluate how good/bad that would be but it just occurred to me that that is an alternate way to nerf it that I hadn't thought of before.

[swift furnace]

To speak to this point and demonstrate it quite literally, here is me being ultra aggressive on zeph taking positional options I would never usually be able to simply because I can uppercutlass iframe crowd control and damage.

https://medal.tv/games/supervive/clips/kWJgvOI6S6_FptYC8?invite=cr-MSxjdFMsMzcwMzgyMDUw

[jade lagoon]

had someone vc in game about; oooo let me see what i can craft for next match because they have a "forge". and i legit went

[wary stirrup]

Yea, but that is due to him hitting the wall, the only way to "resolve that" is to remove grapple bomb, or rework the physics of the game. But the problem in that instance is the cart

[cosmic yew]

Woah is that oc15.... in your team??? Do we have a que restriction dodger??? Will have to confiscate your gm glider for this.

[swift furnace]

-GM glider

• ability to queue with friends??

[bleak garden]

🚨

Attention:

We have received an anonymous report that @swift furnace has been detected commiting queue fraud by queuing with "friends", which is an infraction of the Breach's law, you are ordered to go outside and put your hands up to be arrested, resistance will be met with lethal force which was authorized for this operation.

Please wait while reinforcements arrive to your current location. You will be hereby confiscated of all of your ranked belongings during your trial scheduled tomorrow.

To all others reading this, please avoid interacting with this dangerous individual at all costs. Thank you for keeping the Breach safe.

[sterile bone]

Idk if there is a place to put this that the devs will see.

The shrike six improvement seems to have been too small. If I as somwone with 1k hours on this game still miss the fact I got shot half the time I'd assume it didn't help at all for newer players.

[distant idol]

Damn he really said joule iframes are op because omnivamp

[swift furnace]

There's just no shot

[distant idol]

I guess we are just in here saying whatever we want with no quality control

[silk rover]

see what i've been fighting with all day

its a roug one out here mate

[swift furnace]

I'd almost rather queue soloQ

(just kidding digital bleach is still poison!)

[distant idol]

Joule turns peoples brains off, half the cast can currently kill you as fast as she can or faster but no one cares because lightning lady is mean

[swift furnace]

Indeed

[cosmic yew]

i swear 80% of joules frustration comes from the orb that grounds u

atleast its that way for me

[silk rover]

the pull?

[cosmic yew]

yea the pull

[jade lagoon]

xdd

[cosmic yew]

if i die to a joule without her hitting the pull it feels like i got shit on, outplayed etc

but whenever that pull ability hits me something in my brain turns off

and it feels like i got omega turbo fucked by the games most broken character etc

"I have no counterplay!!!!"

thats basically my thoughts

obviously it does have counterplay of just dodging, but it feels terrible to get hit by it

[wary stirrup]

I mean, that's true for a lot of things

[cosmic yew]

nah i hate joule pull specifically

[silk rover]

idk joule pull feels the same as KP hooks

its so easy to WASD

its core to her char design

[cosmic yew]

real chipsa, but if they hit it it instantly feels unfair

[silk rover]

that and her iframes and dash reset

yea i can see that

but my reaction is always the same as if i got hit by kp hook

[cosmic yew]

her iframes were so cool

i miss back in december when i would have 1v1s with joule players like mershak, nimano, chipsa etc when i was on myth

the matchup was purely skill based

peak times

[distant idol]

Yeah but imagine how I feel when I knock up all 3 of you and make an anime villain noise

Do you hate my fun

[cosmic yew]

now its like unwinnable for the joule

unless ofcourse i have not touched myth in over 7 months! (this is the case 😅 )

[distant idol]

Void matchup used to be that way too

[cosmic yew]

there was so much cool stuff back when the game launched

[distant idol]

I still eat every Hudson so idk why they are salty about iframes

[cosmic yew]

despite the balance being terrible, so many matchups felt skillbased

[distant idol]

If I could go back in time I'd beat myself into learning brall

[cosmic yew]

void would stun me and i had a small gap between the stun to myth rmb him so he cant ult me

there are so many cool matchups in the game but instead we just get wukong-wukong-wukong-oath-tetra-wukong

[silk rover]

the worst feeling is when you dont play for a few months

come back

and then ur iframes are gone

and im like dashing through void ult and shit

and im just dead

gg

[cosmic yew]

hey bro u should play eva she has 0.1sec iframe on dash 🔥

[silk rover]

its not even an iframe right

its proj immune?

[cosmic yew]

perfect parry insanely high skill ceiling 🥶

oh it might be ur right

lmfaooo

[distant idol]

i hate eva but i think she should be immune too...

[bleak garden]

0.2 if you upgrade it to level 4

🤫

[cosmic yew]

I will thank you later for this statement

[sterile bone]

Joule's run omnivamp now, new meta.

[distant idol]

i cant believe this is how i found out..

[sterile bone]

Joule is just a little frustrating to me cus she somehow beats hudson if she plays correctly. Hudson just in such a bad spot it's like that rn; just how it is 😞

[radiant saddle]

A minion can beat Hudson if it plays correctly

[sterile bone]

True

[radiant saddle]

Hudson is just a really poorly designed character and always has been

Who mostly relies on opponents forgetting he exists

[sterile bone]

There is so much cool stuff they could do that whoever is his designer rn just refuses to do.

[radiant saddle]

Doubt they have the time

But I also don't blame them

[sterile bone]

If they have the time to create whole characters ain't no way

[silk rover]

orgignal designer for both hudson and joule doesnt work for TC anymore afaik

[radiant saddle]

The combat design as a system and combat language is really bad overall. Working inside that is extremely challenging

[sterile bone]

Yea I'm aware of this. Hudson's just kind of been getting left in the dust due to how little he has.

I can still occasionally 1 shot people with dash into wires, at least he has that definitely very useful combo.

They did also kinda gut his ult with the yank nerf so I 100% blame them for the state he is in rn.

[radiant saddle]

Not really sure what they can do if they are unwilling to address the underlying issues in his kit that make him insane when overturned

They are also unwilling to change their combat language

[sterile bone]

As long as they just don't do number buffs and actually give him more stuff to use i think he could be in a good spot.

[radiant saddle]

So it's sort of a shrug

The game will never feel really good as a result of the combat language

Took me awhile to realize that

[sterile bone]

Wdym by "combat language"? Just curious

[radiant saddle]

It's the language with which players engage in combat with each other. It's sort of a way to describe the combat design system but rather than as the designer intended but as the players interpret and redefine. You can see this in effect when players vod review. The way with which they can read the actions and outcomes based on correct and incorrect inputs.

[cosmic yew]

🤷‍♂️

im slow

[radiant saddle]

A game with good combat language means there is a conversation between players as they engage with each other.

[distant idol]

right now we're just screaming our abilities at each other

[sterile bone]

At the very least i gotta set up one of mine 😒

[radiant saddle]

To make it easier to understand - think about checkers versus chess. One is a little more conversational than the other

This is to not say that Supervive should be chess or chess is the ideal design

Just to illustrate the idea with a common example

[distant idol]

idk if im understanding exactly correctly but basically the only thing we're really using in response to anyone is wasd + dashes

other than that im either missing or im not, my opponent is either missing or he isnt, and thats the sum of interaction in combat

pre-1.0 powers imo made this a lot better, currently it feels like a lot of people just have stat-check stat stick items that say "did you miss more than i did" and thats the whole combat

[spice chasm]

We need Rank + IQ roles so i know what im dealing with before a discussion 👍

[wary stirrup]

No

[spice chasm]

I do wonder why you write that

[wary stirrup]

Cause that's toxic and immature as fuck

[swift furnace]

Because having hygiene standards for conversations is a bad thing and we should relish in the fact that we get to disprove the same cooked talking points over and over again

[wary stirrup]

https://tenor.com/view/south-park-safe-space-gif-11587445

[sterile bone]

Genuinely I've been getting surprisingly good teammates most of my ganes as of late. 5 games straght with players I do legit think are good enough for high elo if they were just better mechanically. Been winning a lot recently

[wary stirrup]

I love having newer players or peoplr I expect to not do well actually do work, its fucking awesome

[spice chasm]

THEY HAVE NO RESTRICTIONS?

[sterile bone]

Yea they lucked out

Wondering how well the game is doing in China. The trailers and cinematics got some views

[radiant saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/hail-caesar-ralph-fiennes-would-that-it-were-so-simple-i-wish-it-was-simple-gif-5761131151383208631

[chilly parrot]

Okayyyy - this is NOT the only time I've seen this in the thread, but I'd like it to be the last.

No insulting individuals or insulting groups who aren't even here. You're all welcome to disagree and argue to your heart's content, but I've been seeing way too much attacking of the individual instead of talking about ideas.

Keep it positive/professional.

[spice chasm]

I like that you went our of your way to mention my comment that was obviously for fun instead of the ones that were actively attacking each other 👍

[sterile bone]

Has tc thought about the "teams" mode at all? Been an idea gaining quite a bit of traction among high elo players.

I've been wondering if tc has thought about it at all for a while. Nit liek for aure going in, just thought about doung smth like it.

[radiant saddle]

That didn't seem obviously for fun btw

[spice chasm]

In hindsight you're right I didn't make it fully obvious. In sEU I always add " 👍 " when I'm rage/engagement baiting and they know it there, but here you wouldnt know ig

[chilly parrot]

@spice chasm I didn't take it that way at all, regardless, there are many folks engaging and instigating, you are one of them.

I'm not going to take action against anyone, but tbh when I see people talking like this to each other it makes me really disinterested in talking to them or discussing their feedback

I'm not here to be yelled at or to watch others be bullied

[swift furnace]

@chilly parrot free hudson!!! bring my skateboard shiv back 😂 https://medal.tv/games/supervive/clips/kWT7BlLz5tn9ab5zl?invite=cr-MSxESkMsMzUzOTc0NTc4&v=9

[chilly parrot]

Yeah, I think unsurprisingly, we aren't fans of this lolll

[swift furnace]

ofcourse lmaooo

it was fun while it lasted

ooh btw anti-heal is persisting through invulnerability

100% replicable

any antiheal onto any invulnerability

[chilly parrot]

Yeah I don't think it explicitly blocks it. Maybe it should?

[swift furnace]

I mean invulnerability is immunity no?

All test cases are 100% replicable. It does not matter if you dodge damage or not.

Any anti heal onto brall ulti.
Any anti heal onto celeste ulti.
Any anti heal onto uppercutlass.
Any anti heal onto stasis.

Status effects should not persist through invulnerability - in addition to this, in my opinion, they should function like a factory reset of negative status conditions (think paladin bubble [divine shield] in World of warcraft)

[sterile bone]

I'll just say, as a hudson main hudson needs smth if idol isn't too make up for his base kit kinda sucking; nit in the way it did before just well enough that he works.
Ik you guys don't wanna buff him his kit is just pretty damn bad rn.

[bleak garden]

Well I would use my invulnerability to block an anti heal depending of the situation

[swift furnace]

I'd have tested beebo box if it was still int the game

[chilly parrot]

Yeah I think what you're describing is more in line with what people expect for invuln. I think that if you are anti healed for 5s, go invuln for .5s in the middle, you should still be antihealed, but if you use .5s of invuln to "block" the ability that applies antiheal, it should work

[swift furnace]

https://medal.tv/games/supervive/clips/kWJgvOI6S6_FptYC8?invite=cr-MSx2b08sMzUzOTc0NTc4&v=110

[chilly parrot]

(saying how I think it should work, not how it literally does - I believe you that it doesn't work like this)

[swift furnace]

I don't think anti-heal should persist through an immunity at all

[chilly parrot]

I disagree, if only because that change would give a few characters a functional "cleanse" button which might be unhealthy, especially on Brall

[swift furnace]

If I'm Celeste and I'm anti-healed before I go into my ultimate, use my ultimate on 10% hp -> cannot be healed through my ult because I'm antihealed, that would feel especially bad

[spice chasm]

Does this work for slow effects as well?

[swift furnace]

no clue on slow

though I would imagine so

[chilly parrot]

I think if you choose to use Brall Ult to block Felix Q to deny antiheal, that's sick. I think if you get hit then just invalidate his effort by pressing the button, that's less exciting.

I think an antiheal cleanse on a kit needs to be explicitly designed with caution

[swift furnace]

because I can still be knocked back in invulnerability

[swift furnace]

I hear you, and what you're saying makes sense - but the buy in to invalidate his effort is an ultimate CD or relic CD (brall/celeste ulti, paladin's primer, uppercutlass, stasis shard)

felix Q, with his relic / CDR build is at... what... currently at 2-4 second CD?

considering how easy it is for him to revalidate his previous attempt to antiheal you - what are your thoughts then?

[sterile bone]

Also koalifier if you're still here; hudson probably shouldn't just get number buffs, he needs more than that

Fax

Also pls make hudson ult not get destroyed when someone goes invulnerable. I'll hit a brall he ults and suddenly my ult is just gone.

Also unnerf the yank on his ult. His ult is actually kinda shit now due to the yank nerf.

[swift furnace]

Also Paladin's Primer is an entire relic dedicated to invalidating someone's attempt to anti-heal you

[sterile bone]

doesn't work on brall tho :) unless that was finally fixed

[swift furnace]

brall/myth

jawblade got fixed at least

[chilly parrot]

@swift furnace yeah that's what I'm saying, the thing should be explicitly anti-antiheal

[swift furnace]

hmmm fair, I could accept the change where outplaying the anti-heal with a well timed invulnerability doesn't allow it to go through

or just being invulnerable means that you can't become anti healed

I still don't agree with status effects persisting through inulvnerability (imo that means nothing should effect you aka total negative status removal)

but it doesn't feel like it's working as intended atm

appreciate the discussion on it though

goat

[sterile bone]

Some stuff imo should. Like i agree with koalifier that anti heal should. Then I really thing hudson ult should, it being canceled like that is one of the most bs things ever

[swift furnace]

Kind of begs the question: Should there be two different categories of invincibility (invulnerable & immune?)

(what does it mean to be invulnerable vs immune?)
Using an iframe to make yourself immune to damage is reasonable and dodging certain death makes perfect sense
I understand that having your hudson ult iframed doesn't feel good, but it's the same as dodging any other ability

[tender anvil]

How do you even see the op in a thread of 5000 messages

[sterile bone]

I'm fine if they dodge it when I shoot it. But they can dodge it after it hits them, that's my issue

[sterile bone]

This thread ain't about the op anymore

[tender anvil]

https://tenor.com/view/obviously-obvio-the-platform-platform-the-platform-obviously-gif-22772178

[sterile bone]

I feel like invulnerability is already so strong it doesn't make much sense to have it just cleanse you in a way.

Like cleansing hudson ult after it already hit you is such bs and I'll fight for them to make hudson ult stay if the persin it hit uses invulnerability(if they use it when I shoot it it'd atill dodge, cus idgaf about that)

[swift furnace]

But you already do get cleansed of any damage over time, so there's not consistency happening across the board.

It's just "this status effect will persist through you being temporarily immortal" and that doesn't make any sense

Invulnerability functions differently to a shield

[sterile bone]

I don't really see how it doesn't make sense. It's not meant to cleanse just meant to make you not take damsge for a certain amount of time.

[graceful vine]

Tbf most people wanna build CDR or Dash haste, you can have all the damage in the world but if you can't catch or kite someone or they can just face roll high damage abilities at you non stop it doesn't mean anything. It's a persistent issue regardless of armory lol

[sterile bone]

I love felix flame shielding me 10 times a single second. Feels great.

[swift furnace]

Invulnerability isn't being treated as invulnerability, that is what doesn't make sense.

It isn't consistent. Nowhere is it communicated that some status effects will persist through.

Why is a damage over time (felix burn) persisting through something that makes you immune to damage?
Why is antiheal persisting through invulnerability?

[pseudo slate]

From a design perspective or balance one

[swift furnace]

I'm arguing both.

It's not consistent from either perspective

[rigid sigil]

I think antiheals only being cleansed by specific cleansing abilities/items is pretty intuitive design imo.

The waters get muddied when things can be applied during invulns. Like Elluna root, Antiheal, Impulses, etc being applied to an ukting celeste feels super goofy and unintuitive to me.

[swift furnace]

The problem here, is that invulnerable isn't defined.
tbh it's mute talking about it from either side until they define it

[sterile bone]

That stuff shouldn't be a thing imho. Like invulnerability is usually used to dodge stuff so that's weird

[rigid sigil]

It's especially unintuitive when there are several different invulns in the game that behave differently. Celeste? Can be impulsed and have effects procced on her. Brall? Ignores literally everything if it hits him in the front.

[pseudo slate]

To me invulnerability means you can’t take damage while invulnerable

What’s the point in cleanse items if you can buy an invulnerability one that also cleanses

[swift furnace]

Typically I view and have experienced invulnerability in video games like this:
Invulnerability renders a player or unit temporarily immune to all damage and hostile effects, either as a limited-time power-up or a defensive ability.

[pseudo slate]

Yea temporarily

[swift furnace]

When I get out the other side of an invulnerability, I shouldn't have the status effect on me because I was immune to it

[rigid sigil]

Yeah I mean the way invulns are currently implemented is more akin to a parry than it is to true invulnerability. I'd like to see the different sources be brought in line to act the same way from all sources at the very least.

[swift furnace]

or did I catch a case of anti-heal whilst i was immune?

how does that make any sense

[pseudo slate]

Think I’ve miss understood this

Do you mean when it’s applied before or while your invulnerable

[swift furnace]

We've solved that it shouldn't apply if you've hit invulnerable and someone does it after the fact

BUT, im arguing, if that's the case - why can it persist at all?

[pseudo slate]

Why?

[swift furnace]

what is an immunity

[pseudo slate]

Kp hits first hit of ult you invul the second part

Is it fair that his anti heal is cleansed?

[swift furnace]

yes

what does immunity mean

[pseudo slate]

No it isn’t tho

What’s kp ult cd

[swift furnace]

What's paladin primer CD

[pseudo slate]

True

[swift furnace]

right

whats felix Q CD when he builds idol/CDR?

2-4 seconds?

less?

[pseudo slate]

Isn’t idol disabled for these reasons ?

[swift furnace]

An immunity is not an immunity unless it legitimately makes you immune to everything

[swift furnace]

no it's disabled because of hudson/joule interactions on shift

[pseudo slate]

Didn’t know it worked on joule

Wish I tried that

[swift furnace]

nuance (it's because of idol miscalculating when to apply the reduction on short dashes - at least i thinkkkkk)

[rigid sigil]

I just feel like invuln shouldn't cleanse persistent effects if applied before the invuln, but should block any effects from being applied during the invuln.

That seems the most intuitive to me

[swift furnace]

That isn't an invulnerability though

If they want that fine, but find a different name for it

No shot is anyone going to actually sit here and say "you were immune to fire damage, but after you not burning for a second, you just remembered to catch on fire"

like that actually makes sense

[pseudo slate]

Can’t think of it in a way like that

It’s a game