Wukong dunking over abyss from out of vision might be the coolest mechanic I've ever witnessed in a

[turbid copper]

but you can get enough CDR to the point where KP slam is an infinite stun

or elluna root is also infinite

[gilded geyser]

Felix can stay in abyss 3 minutes!

Void can do the saem!

So true

[turbid copper]

I literally said "well not the abyss part"

this is not a wukong RMB issue

this is a you can get WAY too much CDR issue

[gilded geyser]

Yeah it's not him guys it's everyone else that can't stay in abyss for literally 2 minutes

Poor monkey

[turbid copper]

bro I literally just gave you examples of other hunters also being broken because of too high CDR

fix too high CDR you fix monkey

[gilded geyser]

Meanwhile I have to wait 60 seconds to ult as void

I go the same build I can ult once

Or rmb every 5 seconds

He can do what he wants

[turbid copper]

that's just void being generally weak

and I agree that monkey is S tier

but the example you gave is literally just a problem of hunters being able to have too much CDR

[gilded geyser]

Hunters having too much cdr doesn't make them stay in abyss holding a dunk for literally 2 minutes

[turbid copper]

elluna shouldn't be able to perma root, monkey shouldn't be able to perma stay on RMB, KP shouldn't be able to perma cc with Q, Tetra shouldn't be able to perma ult over abyss etc.

[gilded geyser]

It was a late game circle, and he popped a crown by waiting the full duration

No other hunter does that

[turbid copper]

you can bait a slam early by going next to him and popping eplats

that's what a lot of people do nowadays

[gilded geyser]

I don't care

[turbid copper]

hm okay ?

[gilded geyser]

The monkey needs to be reworked

It's the only one in the roster that does what he wants in abyss

No one else comes even close

[turbid copper]

I agree, he does need to be reworked, as does the amount of CDR hunters can get 👍

[next copper]

beebo

beebo was doing it long before wu came out, and didn't even need to build for it, just spamming RMB was enough

but yeah the amount of haste in the game is insane imo

Songbow being one of the worst offenders

Songbow/timestaff both

[gilded geyser]

Beebo can stay in abyss, but he can't hold a dunk while being immune to them and have a giant shield

[minor silo]

But he's not immune to dunks?

Or is the height enough for him to recover before he dies

[gilded geyser]

He can't be dunked while in rmb

Too high

You hit the staff and deal damage to the giant shield

[minor silo]

Pretty sure the staff and Wukong are the same entity

And the shield is irrelevant to dunks

[sterile bone]

Thwre is straght up too much cdr in the game, it's fucking more than before 1.0, a lot more.

I've seen some beebos cc a whole fucking team infinitely with ult. Yea that seems healthy, should stay in the game 👍

[rigid sigil]

As a monke abuser I can confirm that he can in fact be dunked while sitting on staff. The timing is close for the stun duration ending before he dies, but he still dies unless he takes a weird collision with terrain on the way down.

Also dunks are not health or shield dependent, there is also no cc shield in the game.

Dunks will impulse and stun anyone they hit.

The only time a dunk won't kill iver abyss is if they take a weird collision on the way down or if they're high enough to wait out the stun duration. Monke long dashing off of pole might be high enough to wait out the stun, monke sitting on pole cannot.

[minor silo]

Yeah dunks not killing happens often if they keep their sideways momentum or hit a wall on the way down

[cosmic shell]

Also why the fuck does he get to keep his RMB even if he gets stunned off of the pole

[elfin orbit]

"Melee" privilege

[grizzled mulch]

They added an anti dunk item too, but I havent seen anyone run it yet or have it at lvl 3 yet.

[keen ferry]

there is also one in shop for 500

[cosmic yew]

cutlass?

aka ironfist

[keen ferry]

yur

[worldly yacht]

not true

[worldly yacht]

also not true...? it goes on cooldown if im not mistaken

if not thats kinda cooked

[sterile bone]

He is simply high enough the dunks don't "kill". So it depends on how high he is from rmb

[worldly yacht]

depends how long the stun is

all they gotta do is nerf is rmb range or ability to leap so far while charging it

i like when my champion feels broken late game, everyone should feel broken late game

if i can get ulted 4 times by a crysta in one fight i should also be allowed to have my rmb almost all the time

[gilded geyser]

Man that must be great!

Wish void could even come close to doing half of that!

[sterile bone]

I think this is kinda stupid ngl. Evwry champ feeling unfair would in turn make laye game just not feel fun, cus you're dying to stuff that is simply unfair.

I bet it's fun getting infinite stunned by a void/kp/beebo.

[gilded geyser]

Lvl 15 void full cumbo can't kill crysta/shiv/wukong btw

But monkey can oneshot in his combo while having giant shield

And crysta can do her ult thing with 3 star diadem

[cosmic shell]

It doesn't go on CD at all, as long as he's falling he still gets the slam

[clear saddle]

go try to oneshot someone and see how that goes

I dont think void combo should 100-0 every hunter, if ur gonna be stun locked for that long it should require help from ur team

[cosmic shell]

Your team can also help, Void's "one-shot" isn't instant: it takes him a whole 4+ seconds to kill someone off of a pick

He also has pretty lengthy cooldowns - thus punish windows - after blowing his full combo

[fathom cosmos]

can confirm. i monkey slammed after gettin stunned lol.

[clear saddle]

it isnt instant but you also cant react in any way after you're stunned so it doesnt really matter how fast/slow you die

wukong has too much survivability but his damage is pretty awful, youre not oneshotting people

[fathom cosmos]

unless they in the air 😏

[clear saddle]

yea but I think thats a map problem not a wukong problem

[fathom cosmos]

yea i think ppl complain about him too much lol

they dont even use their dash half the time to dodge his dunk and then decide to complain... he uses 1 CD and u think u get to get away with not using 1 to counter it?

look at this guy like he couldve just dodged my dunk lol

[wary stirrup]

Wu is unquestionably the strongest hunter in the game and ruins the experience a lot

[jade lagoon]

🙂

[lethal vault]

It matters when you have teammates that can help.

[clear saddle]

yea but ur dead either way like 95% of the time

in the current state of the game wu is def a problem but a lot of the suggestions I see thrown around don't seem great

rmb takes too much power budget, everything else kinda sucks

q is more useful to block a hit with the tree than anything else, r and shift are just feeding into rmb

passive is useless like 50% of the game

first thing I think would help is making wukong visible in a large radius when hes on pole, even when he would normally be in fog of war, and/or increase the noise it makes

getting slammed without vision of him is easily one of the most frustrating aspects

[lethal vault]

I would compare it to KP hook in this scenario. Neither KP or Wu have to risk much to go for a hook into dunk or a RMB dunk, and they both often commit the same amount of ability uses. KPs hook often gives you more time to execute a dodge, and can often be realistic to dodge without using a dash at all. Wukong might give you a decent amount of time to prepare, but you have way less time to execute a dodge and is much less feasible to dodge without comitting an ability.

So regardless of it being dodge-able or not it often still feels pretty unfair because the risk/execution required by both sides just seems super asymmetric a lot of the time.

[clear saddle]

the suggestions to remove rmb shield or flat reduce it by a % I don't think would be healthy, its a bit impossible to break early/mid but in lategame that shield can get melted so fast and if he has no protection on an ability that forces him to stand still hes going to be pushed even further into the "sit from distance and pole slam poke you"

[fathom cosmos]

yea i was trolling the clip i posted was complete bullshit hahaha

but i agree its like the safest stun in the game that can set up a kill with teammates easily.

even as poke its really good. overwall slap ppl.

[lethal vault]

Ok lol

[clear saddle]

kp isnt really going for a hook in abyss fights tho is he

sometimes sure but isnt it mostly grapple slam

which is even less reactable

[lethal vault]

Hook into dunk is pretty common

But if grapple slam just as bad then just address them both

[clear saddle]

address it how

[jade lagoon]

dunks suck and are stupid

🙂👍

[clear saddle]

buy more eplats

[lethal vault]

Not sure, I don't really play a ton of Wu or KP so difficult for me to know what'd be a good approach.

[clear saddle]

I would like to just see a bit less abyss on the map

and/or reduce price on eplats by like 100g

or just add more ways in general to make terrain or plan for endgame so that it doesnt feel like you get put into "checkmate" situations so often where its 90% abyss vs a bunch of dunk chars

[lethal vault]

We have some larger changes still in the works here, but for this patch we’ve reduced the frequency of heavy abyss final circles, so it’ll be more rare that you feel checkmated by that Kingpin just staring at you across the abyss as the circle closes in.
This is from the last patch notes, sounds like they have something in progress with that first part, in addition the the circle changes they did.

[clear saddle]

yeah ive been hopeful for that, think its a hard thing to address so curious what theyll end up doing

[jade lagoon]

not possible

so, and like it should, there needs to be counterplay to it and some actual fun to it, instead of getting a for free free kill

[turbid copper]

(lf spell-shield support)

unironically would help so much against heavy cc comps/hunters and dunkers

[clear saddle]

how is it not possible to buy eplats

and there is counterplay, even outside of eplats

[delicate bronze]

XD

even without abyss

his RMB has no counterplay

dude can load his RMB infront of you

and there is nothing u can do about it

[turbid copper]

walk into it

like into him

he has to use a dash to hit you and you can punish him after for it if anything

I agree he's really strong but saying there's literally 0 counterplay just isn't really true

[delicate bronze]

yes walk into his teammates

[turbid copper]

well yea it depends on scenario

if you're talking about in a neutral situation

[delicate bronze]

especially good idea when his other two teammates

[turbid copper]

yes I agree there's not much you can do about getting hit besides just walking even further away

[delicate bronze]

are tetra and shiv ☺️

[turbid copper]

but in a situation where it's him and you, you can walk into him to avoid the middle of his RMB

[delicate bronze]

tetra alone can half your hp in 1 second

[turbid copper]

yes I also agree she's overtuned, as does everyone

[delicate bronze]

and chain cc you for eternity

[jade lagoon]

my name, arena

[maiden spindle]

Im sorry but anyone defending wukong is coping. Anyone saying there is literally no counter play is exaggerating. Wukong is on the extreme end of busted and needs an update

[turbid copper]

Yes I agree with Bearison

[delicate bronze]

yes I like to exaggerate

also agree with him 😇

[jade lagoon]

(i was talking about dunks, not wukong spec., thats where the "no counterplay" came from)

[maiden spindle]

Still technically counter play to dunks but agree that it often feels like you get checkmated unfairly due to them. You need to interact sometimes with the abyss and you dont always have eplats and there is often that wukong just chilling on his pole 2 screens away you had no way of knowing about

[cosmic shell]

Doesn't matter because he can dash away instead of forward

[turbid copper]

if he dashes away to hit you, you can just follow up with your own dash in that direction and punish him

[cosmic shell]

...But you're stunned

[turbid copper]

but you're not, if he dashes and the rmbs he still has a cast time

and you can see him dash before he casts his RMB

[cosmic shell]

Your argument of "move towards him" never involved a dash

[turbid copper]

and in general to dodge his RMB you can just dash especially if you know he's going to try and dash away from you to hit you

[cosmic shell]

Of course if you have a dash you can dodge him

[turbid copper]

his RMB as far as dodgeability (if that's a word) is about the same as bishop RMB used to be in beta

you have a dash = you can dodge it, you don't have dash = you will very likely get hit by it

[fiery shoal]

https://www.twitch.tv/tnn216/clip/PiliableMistyPlumDancingBanana-NqY6OYl_0d9quHIr

thought this was relavent

[delicate bronze]

eva so ass

[fiery shoal]

but yeah, does his cd start when he initially presses the button?

in etiher way
A: gets invulrability dunk potitential over abyss every 4 seconds
B: coutner intuitive to be near him if thats the main counter

my crysta got spicked bc his rmb cd was like 3 secs after he used it

[rigid sigil]

I've had it as low as like 3
1 seconds so this is not an exaggeration for anyone reading this

It can probably be even lower with optimal items/3*

[turbid copper]

yep literally this is exactly what I meant

I agree that he's broken once again, but saying he has no counters is wrong

[clear saddle]

hes not invulnerable on pole and I feel like getting close to him makes sense, the staff hitbox only being big near the tip tells u that

[hushed bane]

can someone break this down / give a play-by-play for me?

is it just staying near the base of his pole?

[turbid copper]

yes

the only part of the RMB that spikes you is the glowing orange one

if you stay close to him he can't really hit you with it unless he basically max dashes in a direction opposite of where you are

[jade lagoon]

7s using cliff to stop dunk from dunking, 18s above him, wukong didnt slam cuz he couldnt get an angle and died for it, timed right + lucky cuz 1 ms later and eva wouldve gotten spiked by teammates

[fiery shoal]

idk it doesnt really matter if it has counter play if only dunk charaters have the counter play against him

even though i had crazy up time on my lmb, he took as much glider damage as me without him damageing me during my glider

I would have died here if the enemy wukong was better

[jade lagoon]

that too + if more people. but, i made the "no counterplay" comment, but that was only about dunks not about how you get dunked or who dunks, just simply dunks.

[minor silo]

Cutlass, stasis, platforms, all hard counter dunks

[grizzled mulch]

Stasis is hard to time, Ive seen platforms used in Asia now, but Im looking forward to get cutlass upgraded to 3 star- Gonna play bishop and style on these monkeys and jins over the abyss

[minor silo]

How is it hard to time?

Pretty sure cutlass is harder since it has less iframes

[grizzled mulch]

Its the recancel part that gets to me, with having to dash or glide right after- if you are above your abyss circle, no problem, if at or below, it gets hairy. Might just be me, but I the punch animation helps too- Stasis might be a bit buggy, Ive been slammed still a few times where I felt like I stasis in time, but might just be my ping (104 ms)

[minor silo]

Sounds like it might be a ping issue

[cosmic yew]

@chilly parrot This patch and the devnotes are ON POINT

yall cooked!!!

Very hopeful for the future!

It is worth mentioning ahead of time that with the dunking change, jin will definitely need some buffs, hes not mentioned among the others but slam is basically all he has in his kit rn, maybe we can get some antiheal on his dagger? 👀

[minor silo]

Pls stop slapping antiheal on everything as a band aid solution

At least don't make it 100%

[keen ferry]

yo this is so fire

[delicate bronze]

@chilly parrot as someone who was really harsh towards your company

I must say this patch is great

keep up the good work :>

[cosmic yew]

If it fits on anyone, its jin

this has been the most requested addition from all the competitive jin mains

and it wouldnt affect low elo that much

[rigid sigil]

maybe now Jin can be a real hunter on land :)))

[bold halo]

The game has enough freaking anti heal. It's nearly pointless to have healing when hunters get 5+ seconds of anti-heal. And a single tap of a bramble gives you a seconds of anti heal.

[clear saddle]

im surprised antiheal is that highly requested, I feel like theres barely any healing in the game rn anyways

[bold halo]

There isn't and the anti heal makes all hunters with healing practically pointless in a fight.

We can have a bunch of instant kill mechanics like dunking, (that is finally getting a slight nerf) but healing? Woof too strong gotta make sure elluna only gets 35% self heal on top of anti heal.

[rigid sigil]

Antiheal can be cleansed through knocks, health potions, or through the paladin's primer relic (though it's slightly bugged atm)

[minor silo]

Slightly bugged is very generous of you

[clear saddle]

I do find antiheal to be a bit too all-or-nothing, really strong against the hunters who do heal but obv useless against the ones who dont

[rigid sigil]

Idk much about Eva's state right now, but Zeph and Elluna both have very strong presence through their support styles and damage.

Elluna is easily A tier this patch with airblast + punch or GA.
I'm less versed on Zeph but his team mobility, range, and grenade are crazy.

[minor silo]

Eva is dogshit

[cosmic yew]

so give elluna ultimate anti-antiheal

[minor silo]

Can only really cheese lvl 1 fights

[cosmic yew]

and buy paladins primer

thats why its made for

[rigid sigil]

It's been a pain point for a while for healer folks. I think the game just needs to convey better how many sources of antiheal cleanse there are and fix the paladin's primer bug and heals will return to open beta levels of OP

[lucid dew]

how are they so hesitant to nerf wu but feel no need to restrain themselves with shiv

[cosmic yew]

because wukong is outside of his overtuned slam, kinda weak

[rigid sigil]

Wu winrates are about average despite his unhealthy gameplay. Shiv has been overperforming on her winrates

[minor silo]

Because shiv is ridiculously overtuned

[clear saddle]

they are nerfing wu tho?

on top of the general dunk nerf

[minor silo]

Even with the nerfs she will still be unkillable with her infusor build

[rigid sigil]

Wukong is hyper doggy for anyone middling-low elo because they can't draw out the bungus potential he has. Most of his problems are high elo where people know how to abuse him super hard

[minor silo]

She just will need 1 or 2 more autos to kill

[rigid sigil]

I actually had my friend who's new try out Wukong today and it was super eye opening to see. I gave minimal guidance and he prioritized using charged lmb and Q over his rmb or tree hopping

[cosmic yew]

No more insta-spike tho

[minor silo]

Maybe

[clear saddle]

he def needs some larger adjustments, his q is so useless

[cosmic yew]

15% damage nerf does make a difference btw

[minor silo]

I still think she will need further nerfs

[cosmic yew]

crysta was hit by like 10% overall damage nerf and people stopped touching her

also had to do with her perma dash being cut to be fair

[cosmic yew]

we just have to remove longclaw optics from the game

and all of this is solved

this item is not healthy for casual or competitive games

shrike running that item ruins new players experience

and shiv / ghost running that item ruins experienced players experience

[turbid copper]

technically is more than 15%

[minor silo]

Isn't ghost go to build short range all in build

[turbid copper]

cuz both her malice and lmbs are nerfed

[minor silo]

I don't think I've seen a single ghost go long claw

[keen ferry]

soraka

[rigid sigil]

Hi it's me I'm the ghost who goes longclaw. I'm a kiter through and through

[minor silo]

What do you build

[keen ferry]

a lot of the higher elo na ghosts take longclaw

think eu like none of them take it

[minor silo]

I don't think there's many eu ghost players in the first place

[rigid sigil]

Longclaw + power gauntlet, rocket boots, ardent + whatever feels best in a given game, usually refractor (I think it's super slept on because of the sheer number of projectiles ghost can get going at once)

[minor silo]

I see

[cosmic yew]

woahhhhh

propaganda

all of us do

[rigid sigil]

being able to hit people from out of their range is so valuable

it gives you so much more time to react and so much more opportunity to follow up on nades safely

[cosmic yew]

I do wonder if there are plans to nerf some relics with the next patch aswell

the dunk change does make grapple weaker, which is good

[keen ferry]

oh fr

[cosmic yew]

but it will prob still be the strongest item, especially with the armory changes

[keen ferry]

well u speak for eu not me bakoan just wrong then

[cosmic yew]

most people will have it on 3 soon

[rigid sigil]

I would hope so. Chrono gauge, Ult Diadem, and Resonating Idol need some big hits. It's not fun being the only one not playing urf

[minor silo]

Should go this build tbh

[keen ferry]

they fr need sweeping cdr nerfs

[cosmic yew]

Grabby the squid and vive infusor aswell

[keen ferry]

ttk went down not up with 1.0 LMAO

[rigid sigil]

me when I get kited because my range is so short and can't get out because my dash has a long cd

nah it's probs fine

[cosmic yew]

oh yea im still working on writing buff / nerf suggestions for relics with some of my scrims friendos

[rigid sigil]

not my vibe though

[cosmic yew]

if anyone wants to contribute lmk

[minor silo]

It's funny because Shrike with this build deals 1k damage per auto and 2k per passive proc

[cosmic yew]

stuff like this

[rigid sigil]

I've tried it it's hilarious

[rigid sigil]

Sunweaver probably needs a short cooldown

[cosmic yew]

i think it just needs to scale differently

[minor silo]

Where vive infusor nerfs

[cosmic yew]

i had this written down

[rigid sigil]

I just think some hunters can super abuse proccing it multiple times per second

thx automod

[minor silo]

Could have phrased it a lot better

[rigid sigil]

yeah but I giggled typing this so I like this better

hehe

[minor silo]

Ye fair

[rigid sigil]

wait this is the wukong thread lemme post something wukong related

[bleak garden]

omg i love building this

with Felix... 🤫

[minor silo]

Might be time to change my negative review after this patch

[minor silo]

[rigid sigil]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVjs8iHCKsg

Do we as a community think that this level of mobility is okay?
More specifically:

• Does free mobility (ie. No mana or cooldown cost) have a place in Supervive?
• How do we feel about abyss stall abilities like Wukong Q and RMB?
• Should I-Frames exist? If yes what downsides should they have to counter their inherent strength? If no why?

[minor silo]

What? Would you ever recommend the game to friends in its current state?

[clear saddle]

yea for sure, game is super fun

[minor silo]

I'd prefer if people didn't try it at all so that they could have a first impression when the game is actually playable

[clear saddle]

when you say free mobility what do you mean? like bhopping stuff?

[rigid sigil]

Any type of mobility with no mana cost or cooldown

That would include podracing/bhopping

[minor silo]

Imo all are okay to exist and have. But not all on the same hunter

[clear saddle]

well bhopping does have a cd doesnt it

[minor silo]

Kind of

But Wukong is so fast that it doesn't even matter

Only another Wukong or maybe Brall can chase him

And in places like veingrove where there's lots of trees and height difference he's uncatchable

[clear saddle]

I think it would be overall healthier if there was no bhopping at all but that would require some pretty big changes

[minor silo]

I think they've already completely removed it from Jin

That leaves only Wukong, Zeph, Tetra and Oath?

I think Oath is also heavily nerfed

[clear saddle]

I dont like how unintuitive it is right now

esp with the hidden cd on it

[chilly parrot]

I want antiheal on his kit so badly

[minor silo]

[uncut ravine]

honestly some of the older versions of stealth assassin are so much better than the current ones

[rigid sigil]

Yeah but it's pretty loose. The clip I posted was after Wukong had a cd put on his.

[clear saddle]

yea i'm not super into the cd change

[cosmic yew]

i have a funny clip of that

[bleak garden]

WE want actually...

[cosmic yew]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1397840702024585236/1404760629461389343/SUPERVIVE__2025-08-06__21-36-13.mp4?ex=689e5709&is=689d0589&hm=e6dd3c3d6444d5baca21aabc758390a65caf738464e2f1309ea4128c7819925b&

this kiting and surviviability is insane LOL

[rigid sigil]

Absurd

[minor silo]

Nah I got something terminal watching this

[plucky dirge]

fucked up clip

invuln during ult was actually gross

[sand folio]

What if they just cut all the ability haste shit in half so the entire cast wasnt playing urf with 3 second cooldowns

[bleak garden]

ok this is the most psychopath

deranged maniacal

gameplay i have ever laid eyes upon

thats hannibal lecter playing the game

[clear saddle]

I agree his survivability is too much but I think you also played way better than the enemy in that clip

[minor silo]

Average Wukong main

[silk rover]

yea anti heal makes sense on melee chars in general imo

[minor silo]

Yes, but antiheal being 100% healing reduction for 3 business days doesn't

[cosmic yew]

Thats a different conversation

Your issue here is with the antiheal mechanic itself, doesnt change the fact that giving jin this for his dagger would be a healthy change imo.

Now that his slam isnt a guaranteed kill, giving him some utility for land fights would be great, the game still lacks the assasin role, the closest to this is unironically Elluna

It would also synergize well with items like festering jawblade, that jin players already run

[wary stirrup]

I miss dagger grounding

[chilly parrot]

I'm not a designer, but as a player, my personal feeling is that melees "need" antiheal because it means they are always actually threatening if they get on top of their chosen target. Without it, a Zeph/Elluna/Eva/Oath near-instantly negates, or even makes impossible an assassination attempt. They can still be countered in many other ways, but at least giving them antiheal lets them have stickier damage when they've done everything right to get on top of their targets.

In theory giving them antiheal is also better than just straight damage, since more damage just pushes them into "one shot" territory

[bold halo]

And then that negates healers from... well we already don't have healers. We have (let's go with modest) dps with minor sustain

[hushed bane]

noob question: what's up with the dash -> glide -> lmbing? (i dont play wukong)
edit: watched the full clip, that was insane

[bold halo]

Meanwhile we have Bralls that fly across the map. And shrikes that can 2 tap through healing. They are doing the stuff that made me quit league (other than the toxic player base) "Supports can't be fun or powerful because the cause the smallest disturbance for the actually fun champions "

[cosmic yew]

Im curious, with the new hunter right around the corner, how would the team approach a scenario where a character duo-combo is heavily overperforming, but the individual hunters arent doing that well by themselves? Are things like this ever taken into account when balancing?

Basically Nami + Lucian but in Supervive. (Example Myth + Oath, Shiv + Elluna etc.)

Does the team balance around a team-based environment, where hunters are at their highest potential and teamplay is emphasized, or is solocarry 1vX potential prioritized? @chilly parrot

[brittle vapor]

Put anti heal on Jin dagger and speed up his 3 hit combo so he has better land game.

Dunk changes I will hold comments on until I play it but if Jin gets cucked out of high hp dunks he is pretty pointless to pick over Brall or Wukong. As his advantage over those hunters was really only better air game

[cosmic yew]

In this game there are many ways to carry momentum, when dashing on any character that isnt Void or Joule, you can glide after, the glider will carry over the current speed you acquired from the dash to get u further. Wukongs LMB works similar, its coded to give you forwards momentum so if you time it right you can chain all 3 of these to gain large distance. (Yes, this is OP imo!)

[hushed bane]

oh dang, i forgot that was a feature. ty

[cosmic yew]

One of the most helpful things to learn! Wish there was more emphasis on teaching the movement and momentum in this games tutorial.

90% of the skill divide between veterans and new players comes from the movement

I still remember back in december i could run around the map and try to 1v4 teams, knowing i will almost always get away with superior movement, the knowledge gap was unfortunately much too big and still is for the most part.

[bold halo]

Were you playing Brall.

[cosmic yew]

Ghost haha

Back when you could dash-jump like mario

[bold halo]

Oh then that is actually impressive

[cosmic yew]

good times

[bold halo]

If you said Brall id be like... yeah... obvious. Brall was so strong he dunked any desire to play

[cosmic yew]

Reminds me of the character in this threads title!

[chilly parrot]

I wouldn't say we have a principle about this yet

[chilly parrot]

speeding up 3 hit is an interesting idea for a buff

[jade lagoon]

🙂

[radiant saddle]

@silk rover @chilly parrot Have you both read morello's healing /antihealing tirade?

[silk rover]

nope

i mean i understand the concept of like drain tanks existing vs anti heal needing to exist

and then the many issues that causes

if thats what u mean

[radiant saddle]

Let me see if I can get a link for you. I think you will find it interesting

Damn, I think it was a post on the original league forums. I can only find copy and pasted versions. I'll share it, but I cannot confirm if it is 100% accurate to what he originally typed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/grua0f/morello_was_completely_right_concerning_healing/

I think the original post might be lost to time

[silk rover]

this talking about TF2 tho no?

i cant even imagine how awful the game would be without medics

although i do understand his point

[wary stirrup]

Titanfall 2 doesn't have medics

[silk rover]

i do think that generally front to back gameplay tends to be much more enjoyable than generic DPS vs DPS Combat

so healers and tanks serve a huge degree of enjoyment in these sort of games

and it allows skill expression for things other than just clicking on someone

[hoary talon]

he means team fortress 2 no?

[silk rover]

its a meme haha

[wary stirrup]

Oh, sorry, I just associate TF2 with the better game

[radiant saddle]

He is, but I think that is relvant due to TC wanting to be closer to a hero shooter / action shooter than a front to back top down style.

I think your perspective there is much different than mine though

Due to your overwatch experience

[silk rover]

yea but i think TC has moved away from the front to back nature of hero shooters

i think antiheal is one of those mechanics that needs to be on very specific abilties

and in a game like this for sure needs to be tied to melee chars

but for me antiheal only really becomes an issue in games like league

where selfhealing is the primary problem

[radiant saddle]

Your argument is sound

[silk rover]

like swain/mundo if are too strong

you need antiheal for them

[radiant saddle]

Antiheal should be tied to positional risk so that if you make mistakes you are in a punishable spot

Is essentially how I view your argument

[silk rover]

but if anti is good enough it makes them unplayable since they are hard countered by an 900g item

and if its too weak then you cant stop them regardless

so yea antiheal being tied to abilites makes more sense

however i do think the healing is such a minor issue in this game rn

from healers that is

biggest healing issue is with vive infuser/sunweaver

which again ties back to self healing

[radiant saddle]

True, the healing meta comps seem to have fallen out of favor with the 4->3 team size

[silk rover]

yea exactly

ever since trios supports are basically unplaybale

and when they are they are just glorified DPS

and tanks well

there is only 1 real tank so

[radiant saddle]

Having antiheal to counter self healing / item healing feels weird because when it is attached to a healer character you are thinking about your flow chart in the context of ability usage. When it is attached to self healing / item healing it feels much harder to think about in a strategic manner

[silk rover]

yea

the issue is that to stop a shiv antihealing with vive infuser you need to anti heal her all the time

[radiant saddle]

And more so just I have to press this button before I deal my lethal damage to ensure they cannot survive while I try to survive with my self heal / item heal

[silk rover]

which is the problme with it

[radiant saddle]

Yes

We agree

🤝

[silk rover]

which is why i think vive infuser in general is a problematic idea

[radiant saddle]

Agree

Healing should be attached to specific kits in predictable ways, much like antiheal

So it can be strategic

[silk rover]

yea

it should be always tied to cooldowns imo

[radiant saddle]

Feels much too muddled as omnivamp / item healing / passive healing

That was one of the main problems with Felix in the past. He just turns into a lil omnivamp nightmare if he is in the middle of people and if he is antihealed he can do nothing to survive. Very much feast or famine with not a lot of skillful interaction

Sort of a knowledge check

[silk rover]

yea omnivamp has always been kept weak because otherwise it would cause all sorts of problems

its like if you play league arena at all

if swain/mundo high rolls

you legit cant kill them ever

[radiant saddle]

"if"

😶‍🌫️

I agree with you though

Healing / anti healing has become very muddled and not specific. This means the player cannot be strategic in their engagement with the systems

[silk rover]

legend

i bet you are an adc supp abuser though

[radiant saddle]

I only do bravery / sponsored champs

[silk rover]

legend

[delicate bronze]

yikes

[worn vigil]

I know dunks are getting reworked so maybe this bug is irrelevant at this point. But il just send this for the sake of knowing it exists. https://www.twitch.tv/thankyouchef_/clip/JazzyCalmPanNomNom-hxd-XMtmFleKeH9j wukong climb pole momentum can offset dunks. Also in no world should wukong be allowed to keep his rmb cast after hes stunned

[lethal vault]

Are you sure that's what happened? The amount of momentum he could offset from the climbing the pole is surely less than a dunk would give, and they don't really go down at all in this case.

To me, it looks like they probably were sent down but got blocked by your hitbox. I've seen it happen to KPs and such as well, no Wukong RMB needed.

[worn vigil]

did not realize that was a possibliity, you got clips of other cases like this ?

i just assumed it was due to rmb shifting his hitbox or giving his upwards momentum or something

[void fable]

Dunking was never guaranteed to begin with. Targets can just pop right back up by mantling while dunked, which never got fixed.

[grizzled mulch]

If you manage to input momentum right before a dunk next to somewhere where you can mantle, you can sometimes counter the dunk (jin is harder to counter due to the root)
I dont feel like that was a bad thing.
Cutlass and Stasis shard also counter dunks.
Skill expression in this game is legit and I think we are just starting to understand just how nuanced the physics of this game can get. I love it and hope TC can communicate better about this to people so that they understand how epic shmovement in this game can be.

[stable tusk]

the only problem then is imo that on most Hunters you'd have to intentionally play suboptimally to have the chance for this skill expression. Like, how many hunters actually want to build Stasis instead of something providing useful stats or bonuses? Dunks are a comparatively small part of the game, so you're giving yourself a handicap by not playing a strong build just to be safer during 5% of the match.

I think we just need more (available) defensive items as consumables, then everyone can make use of the possible skill ceiling, like we're seeing now with platforms against dunks.

[silk rover]

Statis really strong it just has too long if a CD

Of

But the tradeoff between choosing stats Vs active items is a pretty good idea ngl

[stable tusk]

Yeah conceptually it's strong, but I just worry that the active items would need to be super op for most people to play them, because it's an exclusive choice. You don't even have a backpack or anything ingame, you're committed unless you have a lot of money and a nearby shop or get lucky with finding deathboxes.
So whatever utility relic you're using needs to provide as much consistent value as an always active bonus and/or improved stats. Like it'd have to be up every fight and make up for your decreased kill potential. Stasis is definitely close because it has unique and insane value, but I don't see it being better over the course of a whole match than some other 3 star relic

[cosmic yew]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1310355627943395428/1405900597357711500/Clips-Moments-de-Aug-15-2025.mp4?ex=68a08276&is=689f30f6&hm=0ba393b88f1e5bac10e4aa8d18cc25df245c5a6f08c08b2204137eb093996f57&

what da heck is happening here?

@chilly parrot another thing to urgently look at for next wednesdays wukong changes

seems people have found a way to instantly recast slam

[sterile bone]

Chrono gaudge + max cdr. Seems fair

[hoary talon]

no no its a bug

[sterile bone]

Ngl I kinda want them to put a cap on cdr to avoid certain bs scenarios. I mean base cdr not like any of the effects. Stuff like chrono definitely need a cd tho

[sterile bone]

Yay, another bug that makes him stronger

[astral cobalt]

its cause the actual slam has a different cd compared to getting on the stick

and the slam cd is so low once u get enough cdr that u can just hit twice

[swift furnace]

xd

[keen ferry]

oh i see

[sterile bone]

https://discord.com/channels/852642429105995786/1405925424114176144
This stuff is a little funny

[hard heron]

ok i might be super late about this but i was just thinking what problem can happens if you remove the root because you can already grapple on ally who are not root and ennmy can do the same thing as an ally so why would it create more unexpected behaviour if ennmy go speed of light when ally can do it without getting root ?

[chilly parrot]

What I was saying wasn't that we can't remove the root, just that doing it quickly without testing it is risky

[cosmic yew]

How about behaviors where the root duration is cut in half so that dashing out of it before a currently guaranteed CC hits u is a possibility?

Wouldnt this be the best of both worlds?

[rigid sigil]

Potentially leads to similar issues. From how I understand it the grabby being on a moving target is the potential problem-maker so cutting the root in half would open up that door as well.

[spice chasm]

Are the people that farmed a lot at the beginning of 1.0 getting refunded for their dupes or are the 5k a consolation prize?

[chilly parrot]

I think we can remove the root, just wasn't a good candidate to instantly hotfix

[cosmic yew]

https://tenor.com/view/cinema-gif-5935759059195122434

[sterile bone]

Best changed of the patch tbh. NO MORE GRAPPLE ROOT!!!

[cosmic yew]

Every single thing theyve changed in this patch has on point

this is by far the best patch weve ever had

[sterile bone]

I agree. I just think they missed a few items, other than that it's basically perfect.

[cosmic yew]

i do wish there was a way to choose which elixir i proc

allot of us run this for the elixir of mana, but theyve also buffed mana regen at a baseline so maybe its fine

[sterile bone]

Ngl I thought it was fine. Didn't think it needed the nerf

[chilly parrot]

mostly a bugfix because people were spamming and cancelling placeable walls to get all 3 elixirs at once

[sterile bone]

Yea i get that it just feels like it's a nerf to compensate for the bug existing... which feels weird to me.

[cosmic yew]

oh for sure

before you could use multiple jumppads / other consumables to get to 4 elixirs, i hope this becomes a possibility again

i never utilized the spikewall bug or the wards spam, imo the best option is to just disable wards and walls proccing it

with the current implementation of only 1 elixir at a time this perk wont be used at all

[sterile bone]

Walls should proc when they fully place cua you can't pick them up again. Wards shouldn't cus you can pick them up and just place them again for another elixir.

[sterile bone]

Gambling for if you get the specific elixir your hunter wants is definitely gonna be pretty shit.

[cosmic yew]

unfortunately that will be the case

it currently feels like half the perks arent used at all and elixirs will just become another visual clutter perk for the shop

the favoriting feature being character based now is awesome tho and kinda solves that

[minor silo]

90% of the perks are either extremely situational or never picked

Does any hunter besides Elluna and Ghost pick dash engine?

[cosmic yew]

i wish this perk for instance said "See 50% farther and see invisible units while sneaking"

there is so much potential in perk buffs for this game but currently 60-70% of them feel useless

i fear if we get magebog endgames now the invis in water perk will just be out of this world frustrating to deal with

there is no more invis detection thats accessible, scan grenades can counter it but ur not guaranteed to have them

this perk also could just be "Grants 10 max Health per player level"

would scale better into late cus not a single soul is buying this and if u pick it up early from a vault ur bound to drop it

[minor silo]

You don't like shooting around like a maniac to find invis units?

[cosmic yew]

Todays relic changes were all stuff i had written down in my notes, which is pretty funny

[bleak garden]

I love having 60 health

[cosmic yew]

i never got around to posting that so i was pleasantly surprised at how good this patch is

time to make notes for perk change suggestions

[minor silo]

I'm surprised we got patch notes before the patch dropped tbh

[cosmic yew]

if anyone wants to chime in lmk

@sly gazelle ik u feel strongly

[bleak garden]

what im seeing is tank jin build angle with Fortitude next

[cosmic yew]

now u can have 120!

double it and give it to the next person

(the perk will still be dropped even at 120)

or this perk LOL

what even is this

[minor silo]

Wukong shield reduced to 900

[cosmic yew]

Will future changes to elixirs be considered (Making multiple available again but walls and wards dont proc them anymore?)

[minor silo]

Imma be real I don't think there's a single combination of characters that can break Wukong shield

[cosmic yew]

It hurts to see eva buffed but her strongest perk (elixirs) basically removed from the game

[minor silo]

Unless he's just chilling on his staff for fun

[cosmic yew]

tetra can rmb him out of it

but that requires her to be on him when he casts

same with kingpin slam

[minor silo]

These are stuns though

[cosmic yew]

ive broken it with a myth ult once and the wukong spiked himself into abyss

that was the first and only time i noticed that if u break wukong shield he dunks himself

lmfao

[minor silo]

Did they fix the double cast bug though

[cosmic yew]

cooldown haste is omega nerfed

so partially i guess

[minor silo]

Or are we still gonna have geniuses calling it a feature

Y'all should start banning bug abusers from scrims tbh

If TC isn't gonna hold them accountable someone should

[sterile bone]

Hudson, oath, kp, beebo, and prob some I'm not thinking about. Dash engine is one of the more popular perks due to the mana changes

[cosmic yew]

Wait till u find out that the only team who has bug abused in the last months was tomkicks

therefore there was no punishment

funny how that works

[minor silo]

During scrims or during general gameplay

[cosmic yew]

during scrims

theres a entire vod of them doing exploit grapply tech to get in the sky

and then sky-beebo ulting

heres a clip:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1310355627943395428/1406716291351314442/41D2661.MP4?ex=68a61d23&is=68a4cba3&hm=4b59180356efee09beb958e853e05ce7fc44766d6fe1a312caa766c46126195f&

[minor silo]

Yeah bro bugs are features bro

[minor silo]

If devs didn't want them they wouldn't have coded them in the game in the first place

[sterile bone]

What, the people with some of the biggest influence in the community get away with stuff? Surprising definitely.

[cosmic yew]

we made a poll in the scrims discord to ban it and punish use of this tech

it sat at 26 for yes, 5 for no

and tom deleted the poll and scolded the mod who posted it

👍

the more u know about the EU state of competitive

the less u see hope in it

Our main organizer Treadzy quit playing the game unfortunately, we never had any issues while he was the lead admin

[sterile bone]

I actually hate how people act like "you have to invest an ult" actually means something. Having to use an ult is no more risky than just using a normal ability in this game

[cosmic yew]

https://www.twitch.tv/vzorlandos/clip/BreakableRamshackleMartenDBstyle-NKxCb3kuoTDwFiZo

[sterile bone]

Sounds about right. Maybe na isn't so bad after hearing this lol

[cosmic yew]

https://www.twitch.tv/tom_kick/clip/FunnyCoweringFoxHeyGuys-W5rjfC8HGF-6jl-1

[minor silo]

99% of the gameplay is downtime

Using an ult means jack shit in most situations

[cosmic yew]

While i love the region banter and i heavily consider EU skill levels higher than NA on average, your region has much more competitive integrity

i would prefer playing on NA if i could without lag

i love ur community

[minor silo]

Only thing I like about NA is that they seem to play whatever they like instead of being meta slaves

[bleak garden]

If only someone would take it 💔

[minor silo]

Watching na streams vs eu streams is night and day

[keen ferry]

its good on any hunter with impulse but also good in general for traversal

[sterile bone]

The community leaders of na are all honestly pretty chill. And I'm happy for that especially after hearing this shit.

[minor silo]

Yeah thing is that most hunter dashes cost like 6/12 mana

Elluna costs 12/35

[cosmic yew]

I should clarify that weve now agreed to ban future use of this beebo interaction

but the problem is that the commonsense thing of no exploits just doesnt exist anymore

feels like everyone now has a get out of jail free card to use a bug they find aslong as it isnt stated in the rules yet

[minor silo]

Fusillade (R)

BUGFIX: Fixed issue where Fusillade was dealing more damage on its outer ring than intended.

B r o t h e r w h a t

How much more damage were we talking about

[cosmic yew]

Ok back to positivity mode this patch is amazinggggg

lowkey

que restrictions will still kill high elo and content creation

but for core mechanics and balance, S tier patch

[sterile bone]

Maybe that's why she just deleted people with ult lol

[minor silo]

They further nerfed Joule damage???

[cosmic yew]

And then u can also buy the pay-to-win skin so they cant even see the outer aoe 🔥

[sterile bone]

Don't we all love p2w cosmetics

[minor silo]

New Orb behavior

Can now revive allied Wisps, including herself 

    If Eva is the last Hunter alive on her team and has an Orb out, she will knock to Wisp (rather than immediate team elim)

PLEASE STOP

[sterile bone]

Just to comment on this 1 last time, the fact they get away with this honestly pisses me off. I don't even watch eu or really care about it, but it's such bs. And the fact they basically dictate whether they get in trouble for it. Like, wtf

Eu drama seems nice, maybe I should lay attention to that region for the drama :)

[cosmic yew]

many of us feel this way, we had 2 people quit mid scrimset because of this and many said theyre not gonna bother signing up again

but now we banned it atleast

[keen star]

So many cringe bug abusers in this game I hope tc keeps focusing on getting casual/norm players first over esport sweats

[minor silo]

Ngl I'd rather they change dunking back to what it was and reduce eplat cost again

Dunks were supposed to be lethal at ~50% health, not 70

[keen star]

[minor silo]

So, resonating idol is now arguably more broken than before since it halves dash cd as well?

[chilly parrot]

idk

[minor silo]

Well no longer halve but 1/3rd reduction

[chilly parrot]

I think at this point, it kinda feels like it's time to move this convo to another thread

we've really lost the plot lmao

[sterile bone]

Well at least it's banned now... only thing na has banned now is beebo fast car(assuming the wu netfs are sufficient enough he likely gets unbanned), but it's only really because it was actually used. People in na don't even abuse crazy stuff unlike in eu. Which legit is prob better.

[cosmic yew]

It has kinda become a general discussion thread in here, but i dont think thats problematic

wukong has been hit in all the right places and im very happy!

[keen star]

Ty for the patch king excited to play mercury ❤️

[chilly parrot]

aight just uh

[sterile bone]

Sometimes I forget this thread was about out of vision wu slams originally

[minor silo]

Before we do that, are there ever going to be consequences for bug abusers or are bugs considered features till actually patched

[chilly parrot]

don't expect me to respond if I'm getting randomly pinged in here because it's like 50 messages go by and there's a random ping in here that I have to go digging for

[chilly parrot]

I think it depends on the bug. Not going to make a blanket policy for this

[minor silo]

I think the double Wukong RMB bug is obviously enough a bug that many knowingly abused and gave a clear huge in game advantage

[chilly parrot]

I don't have an exact line, but Wukong double-RMB is so deeply, deeply below the line for something I would recommend taking action against players for using

[cosmic yew]

https://medal.tv/games/supervive/clips/kVNRzoNQtDRaVTgJr?invite=cr-MSx2THgsMzExNTkwMDM5

[chilly parrot]

my opinion is unchanged

The bar has to be really, really high for punishing people for doing something that we put into the game

even if we didn't intend to put it into the game

[minor silo]

Yikes

[chilly parrot]

thanks

glad I'm working extra late to get some really productive feedback 😂

[cosmic yew]

we all appreciate your work koalifier, these recent weeks have been the most productive era of supervive when it comes to patches and communication, thank you!

[keen star]

my productive feedback is to give me new hot men ty

[sterile bone]

Honestly I agree with this. It shouldn't be in the game, but it is so is it really their fault for using it?

[keen star]

but yes looking forward to try new dunk changes later 😈

[chilly parrot]

nice! Definitely drop feedback (maybe a new thread somewhere 😓 ) and let us know how it feels. Now that there's a system for it, we can tune and tweak it to get it into the best place

[keen star]

I was slightly surprised to see the dunk hp threshold increase from 50% to 70% but we’ll see how it feels anyways when we all get our hands on it

[heady hare]

Awareness check

Ain’t no wayyy 💀

[swift furnace]

nah awareness check has got to be new copy pasta

[minor silo]

Should have been aware of the Beebo 2 screens over slowly descending from low orbit

[bleak garden]

just dash

[sterile bone]

You saw him go up in the air ao obviously you knew he was gonna ult and pick you up while he was still out of vision

[keen ferry]

erm the mana cost is not the reason why you take it

[minor silo]

On Elluna you do

[keen ferry]

no bc you would take dash engine

and your cds are not low enough to cut into the natural mana regen with dash engine

[minor silo]

What?

What are you yapping about

[round night]

Mana cost is not the reason you take Dash Engine?

That's a weird take

[keen ferry]

no you wouldn't take glider speed because of mana costs when you can take dash engine

glider speed should be taken because it compounds with dash momentum

[minor silo]

What are you saying my dude

Dash engine = reduced dash mana cost, no one in here mentioned anything about glider speed or momentum

[keen ferry]

wait

I genuinely can't fucking read

LMAO

on god I thought you were saying you take glider speed on ghost elluna

[minor silo]

At least we are on the same page now

[silk rover]

I mean it's not even a bug?

Like I don't understand

It's a stupid mechanic don't get me wrong but calling it a bug is wrong I think

Like I bully tom kick more than anyone

But he is 100% right here

But the EU scrim community is such a cesspool now that people are starting to ban techs they dislike

Not just bugs

Shits wild

[radiant saddle]

Can't beat it? ban it

🗣️

[silk rover]

Legit

But wcyd

Can't believe we live in a time where na is a more competitive region than eu

That's depressing

[acoustic grove]

didn't NA banned Wukong until he's balanced ?

or am i trippin

[silk rover]

Not sure

But that's more reasonable than what we did in eu

Where u could play him and not using lmb bhop

[fiery shoal]

Yeah

[silk rover]

[acoustic grove]

the game is 100% better without him and Tetra

[silk rover]

Yea no shit

[acoustic grove]

i want to play in NA ngl

[silk rover]

But it's also better with squads

And like 20 other changes right

But u have to play with the game you have

[fiery shoal]

That’s more like not playing the game at all since only 3 ppl sign up for scrims daily 💀

[silk rover]

Unless you have actual mod support and/or the game is defunct

No reason to try and balance the game urself making arbitrary rules

[acoustic grove]

Like league removing Akshan from pro comp after his release right ?

[silk rover]

Not sure what this is in reference to

[acoustic grove]

Akshan was so broken for the pro scene after his release, they had to ban him for the worlds

we had to endure the GOAT in ow for so long it killed the game

[silk rover]

So what's Ur point

League almost never ever ban heroes in pro play

Unless they are new or bugged

Which is the case with askhan here

[kind edge]

Yeah I think banning some characters/relics or whatever which are obviously super out of whack is pretty ok, but banning tech is kinda crazy imo no?

[silk rover]

Yea agreed

Banning tech is so insanely dumb unless the tech is clearly gamebreaking

Banning new heroes is common place

I wasn't massively against the idea of banning wukong in scrims

It was the idea of banning his tech that made no sense

[sterile bone]

It picks you up when he isn't even on your screen, that's the main issue. And like, that has ro some sort of bug no? He isn't even on your screen yet his car picks you up.

[minor silo]

Bugs are unintended features

The features can be either positive or negative

[silk rover]

No it's just that the car has like effectively insane gravity

[minor silo]

Riven animation cancels were a bug and wereplanned to be removed

[cosmic yew]

NA would clap this in a heartbeat btw

[minor silo]

According to the devs though every bug currently in the game is a feature and everyone is free to use them

[silk rover]

Yea I mean this is every game company ever

Mercy super jump was a bug

In the game for 2 years

Before it was added as a feature

U think people got banned for using it?

[minor silo]

There's 2 different kind of bugs

[sterile bone]

Like almost all bugs in this game at least are just unhealthy. Cus there's ao much at this point people have kinda stopped carring.

[minor silo]

Some of them give you a slight advantage that feel nice

Others are just straight up bullshit

[silk rover]

and where u do u draw this line?

because my perspecitve

is unless the bug is gamebreaking

its fair game

and this bug isnt gamebreaking

[minor silo]

Wukong multi RMB bug should be obvious to everyone

That is straight up bullshit

[silk rover]

tbf im not even sure if the RMB bug is actually technically a bug

[minor silo]

Wukong schmovement, as bullshit as it is, is fair game

[silk rover]

its bullshit sure

[minor silo]

It's an unintended feature

Caused by shit coding

Definition of s bug

[silk rover]

its an oversight due to the way that the RMB CD is coded

but its was designed that way

afaik

its just more so

an OP and bullshit mechanic rather than a bug

issue is aswell is that certain bugs you can do by mistake

and/or by trying to avoid using the bug you limit the char

like with beebo

if you cant ult from skybox

then how far off the ground can you ult

where is the range that its fair game?

hence why banning stuff like that is just stupid

[minor silo]

Beebo ult should have a global ult sound in the first place

Same with Bishop

Well not global

[silk rover]

yea i agree

[minor silo]

But should be heard when cast off screen

[silk rover]

but the question is

do you ban doing his ult until thats added

[minor silo]

Personally I wouldn't ban the Beebo bug

"bug"

But Wukong double RMB yes

And all players abusing it

In a heartbeat

No second thought

[silk rover]

i mean i guess its a question of where you draw the line

which i agree with

however the wukong RMB i think atleast if i understand it right

you can basically do the tech without actually going to abuse it

im not 100% sure because im not certain how it functions

[minor silo]

You just need enough CDR and then just spam RMB

Sure, you can accidentally do it once or twice

But if you are even streaming yourself doing it over and over and over

Then you are nothing but a clown

[worldly yacht]

I agree people bug abusing like the wukong rmb is degenerate and toxic

dont think its bannable though

Devs just gotta fix that shi

[sterile bone]

The difference is when someone deliberately abuses it and when someone just does it. Like, they're deliberately abusing something that is just stupid, it is in the game but at the same time that's just bs to play against. Banning it doesn't make sense unless you're struggle to get players which is(afaik) why na even banned wu, and we still struggle. But if people want to ban it they should be allowed to at least try rather than getting told "not even up for discussion" by the inthink scrim leader and the main team abusing it.

[cosmic yew]

real and true

but we as a competitive scene do have to ban this stuff

despite what chipsa says

the beebo one is the code working as intended, koalifier has confirmed

but he also mentioned the developer didnt even consider the fact this would be possible

or that people would do this

[radiant saddle]

If I lose to it, ban it

If I can win, it's fine

[worldly yacht]

is that where beebo ults in the skyshark

[cosmic yew]

we would have to ban allot then!

2025 pumpers.......

[radiant saddle]

Ban EVERYTHING!

But for serious. If it isn't banned in the ranked ladder than it should be free game in comp play. I think Riot's ban a champ for a bit on release is close to okay but even kinda draws the line a bit too close.

[silk rover]

stop using logic from other games

this is supervive

if you use a bug

you should be .mp3ed

but yea luke the euSV server is insanely mickey mouse ngl

every scrim set

theres like 5 people complaining about some tech/mechanic

and asking for it to be banned

and then there is a poll

its a funny old place over there

[radiant saddle]

I don't blame em. No one wants to play the game with the bullshit possible that makes the game feel unfair. But it is important to remember that TC has a design philosophy that characters should be allowed to have their bullshit. I think the bullshit is pretty core to the game

[silk rover]

yea, i mean i advocate against bullshit more than almost anyone here

like how much were we complaining about blink kp

or invis kp

all that shit

or all the brall bugs

but never once did it even cross my mind to ban these things in scrims

[radiant saddle]

Yep

Pretty clear that bullshit stuff like that is core to the game design and how the game is designed to function

[silk rover]

exactly

[radiant saddle]

Oh wellt ho

[minor silo]

People generally dislike being on the receiving end of bullshit

[silk rover]

the ideal world would be if we had mod support

[radiant saddle]

Yes, they do

[silk rover]

and we could fix these things themselves

like they do in some other games

but these tend to be games that dont have dev support anymore

[minor silo]

So if it's 1 person enjoying the bullshit vs 2 or more receiving it

Then the bullshit has to go

Because it's net negative

[radiant saddle]

Well, funny story that

See here

[silk rover]

agreed

but its not on the community to pick and choose what bullshit mechanics we allow and disallow

like wings on bishop

is 100x more bullshit than anything that is banned in scrims

but we dont ban that do we

[minor silo]

If it has sufficient and reasonable counterplay it should stay

If not it has to go

[radiant saddle]

Well, that is up to the devs

Not the players

[silk rover]

when u mean it has to go

do you mean devs patch

or we ban in scrims?

[minor silo]

Devs patch

[radiant saddle]

Sure, ideally

[silk rover]

then we agree

[minor silo]

You can hold votes in scrims idk

You already do that

If everyone says this is shit don't do it

I doubt there's lots of stuff that would be a close vote

[cerulean thicket]

Bug abusing is one thing but in any competitive game people are gonna abuse what is strong or game breaking

[radiant saddle]

Just a slipperly slope to set yourself up on

[minor silo]

Most stuff would be pretty clear if people are for or against

[cerulean thicket]

Banning everything that comes up prevents meta’s developing and growing

Unless it’s truly unbeatable

[silk rover]

^^

stuff like

basecamp in skybox

i 100% agree with banning

[cerulean thicket]

Cause like you ban one thing then the next thing comes up and so on and so forth

[silk rover]

because if you get that

its turbo gamebreaking

[radiant saddle]

Sure, but if you are losing to something consistently and not able to overcome it with your own strategy sure seems like you have a pretty strong motive to ban it rather than overcome it

[silk rover]

this is exactly what happened in EU scrims

[cerulean thicket]

It’s ok to have op shit

[silk rover]

like luca just dislikes some mechanic

whether its a bug or not

and gets it banned

and then another thing comes up

[cerulean thicket]

Even games that are hella balanced like league have shit that is OP

[silk rover]

ban this

and again

been like 4-5 things now

i swear

[cerulean thicket]

Yeah it’s a slope

[silk rover]

its actually degenerate

[cerulean thicket]

Sometimes cool strategies come from people looking to beat the broken shit

[cerulean thicket]

Have some examples?

Are they just like item combos?

[silk rover]

wukong bhop was the first

then wukong rmb over abyss

skywards was another

now beebo ult from skybox

trying to thing of others

[cerulean thicket]

This is just dumb I’ll keep it real

[silk rover]

im certain there has been others

like he legit was saying

if you go low in abyss and RMB

[cerulean thicket]

That’s like intended mechanic

[silk rover]

you should be deducted points in scrims

legit not even kidding

[radiant saddle]

based

meta gaming

[silk rover]

because theres a bug than increases the size of the hitbox

[proper wigeon]

💀

[silk rover]

oh yea wukong double RMB aswell

tetra RMB max

which tbf i think both are much closer to reasonable

[acoustic grove]

If I 2 tap someone in scrims with Shrike I’m getting banned

Broken hunter

[silk rover]

thats gonna be next bro

dont even joke

[cerulean thicket]

I mean I’m all for banning bug abusing if it’s avoidable

[silk rover]

like tetra rmb max

i think is fine to ban

[cerulean thicket]

Yeah

[radiant saddle]

I guess the thinking is that people might not play because the game is bullshit if they don't do things like that

Which, fair

[silk rover]

yea thats an arugment i can see

but at that point

what you are doing is removing competitve intergrity for the sake of keeping people playing

[cerulean thicket]

Also like there’s a difference between bug abusing and just shit coming up

Like wukong low rmb in abyss is hard to track

[silk rover]

gen elixers with wall was another one

exactly

same with beebo ult

[acoustic grove]

Ngl but seeing ppl claiming they are good on Tetra when all they do is grapple + impossible to miss dunk is quite cringe, even more than KP.

[cerulean thicket]

It’s a slippery slope imo

[cerulean thicket]

You got outplayed buddy it happens

[acoustic grove]

[radiant saddle]

Don't worry, both are fixed now

[cerulean thicket]

Tetra players will be exposed

[wary stirrup]

A LOT of players are gunna get exposed today

[silk rover]

tom kick stocks in shambles

[cerulean thicket]

Not me!

[sterile bone]

Grapple abusers are no more, rejoice.

[grim fox]

I think if the community is able to enforce a scrim-exclusive ruleset that sidesteps the mistakes made by designers, then they should.

Ladder and Scrims/Tournament Play are basically entirely different games to begin with anyhow, and I doubt it even matters at this point given the state of the game, might as well just send it and see what happens

[silk rover]

think it depends on what you mean

if you mean by different rulesets via ingame settings i agree

but i think the divorce between ranked and scrims isnt a good thing

because it will lead people who soloq to come into scrims and be confused about why certain things arent allowed

and espically true when alot of the stuff is very unituivtive

[lethal vault]

Wonder if you could have a system where you limit the ruleset to like 10 rules or something and you just ban the 10 most problematic things as agreed upon and replace things as needed to reduce the confusion and make people be more selective about what's banned. Then you have a more consistent list and discussions about if something should be banned can be a little more structured since you're comparing it to your existing ban list in a more clear way.

[cosmic shell]

And TC is notorious for being on top of their shit, proactive, and knowing what is best for the game's health, right?

[silk rover]

sounds so arbiritary

[grim fox]

You said earlier the game is just better without Tetra and Wukong, and I agree entirely, not to mention all the other reasons I haven't played in almost a year.

I'm not a part of the scrims community, but if they took a vote to get rid of them and it passed, I would not blame them whatsoever

[lethal vault]

Yeah but it creates a less arbitrary cuttoff point on what meets the threshold of being bannable if you do want to go down the road of banning specific things.

[grim fox]

This is okay, I think, if they're willing to show up to a competitive environment, they're basically coming in with the knowledge that there's still a ton they need to learn and they will be getting their ass handed to them on occassion, as long as the rules are intuitive enough, I doubt there's much harm done

[silk rover]

straight up banning hunters from the game just seems so dumb, at that point ur not even playing the game

[cosmic shell]

I think if the community playing their custom game mode can come to an agreement, what's the problem?

[grim fox]

It's not if it makes the ecosystem better for those who want to be involved, designers make mistakes, TC has made that part obvious at least, if the community wants to rectify them, all the power to them

[silk rover]

thats fine but at that point you are effectifly just deleteing any chance of an esports scene

if you wanna do that then be my guest

[grim fox]

This game has an esports scene?

[silk rover]

but then there is 0 organic growth in the scene

[silk rover]

no ofc not

but if you want some form of comp scene

[cosmic shell]

Counterpoint, if your esports scene is the same fucking overtuned meta every single game it gets boring

[silk rover]

and how do you fix this problem?

spoilers the answer isnt banning random shit in ur game

the answer is devs need to fix said problems

its one thing if the game no longer is being supported by devs like battlerite is

then its fine

[cosmic shell]

In an ideal world, yes

The reality is that we've been dealing with Wukong for well over a month

And the game is bleeding players at an alarming rate

These micro changes just don't cut it anymore

[silk rover]

the game is bleeding regardless of wukong bro

[cosmic shell]

Yeah it's bleeding because TC is too stubborn to address the game's pain points

[silk rover]

theres changes you can make in a comp scene that i agree with

[cosmic shell]

Because "data"

[silk rover]

but none of these suggestions do that in any way

banning wukong/tetra from scrims

does legit nothing for the game longterm

[proper wigeon]

this is why fearless draft at League is insanely popular to the point of being an official new rule despite being a fan created rule in the first place

actually forces teams to change it up and not run down Rumble/Skarner/K'sante all games

[silk rover]

it just makes it more fun short term

[cosmic shell]

Chiprell admitted to dropping the game because TC kept making mistake after mistake

[silk rover]

and destroys any longterm growth

[cosmic shell]

At some point we have to acknowledge that TC may not be the best body to balance their game well and fast enough

[silk rover]

yea but fearless draft makes sense right, it has some form of stratgic depth

and in a game with 140 or so heroes it makes sense

none of these changes suggested are anything close to that

[cosmic shell]

No but it allows people to actually play the game in the short term

We want to play right now

[proper wigeon]

this game needs some sort of ban tbh

lobby voted bans up to 3-5

[silk rover]

again this comes down to

if you wanna ban tetra/wukong

you make the game more fun short term

but you lose comp intergrity

[cosmic shell]

And right now, the game is ass until the next two week patch cycle, and TC's patches are so microscopic there's historically a chance the OP shit won't even be nerfed remotely enough

[cosmic shell]

Never had any to begin with

When every team just had to run the same comp

If anything, banning Wukong and Tetra improves competitive integrity

Because now you actually have strategizing, personal picks

Competitive integrity dies when competitiveness boils down to whoever can abuse the current FOTM

[silk rover]

this is so insanely untrue btw

thats everysingle esports game ever

and every sport ever

who is the best

is who is the best at abusing whats OP

trying to stop that makes the sport less competitive not more

[cosmic shell]

Best at the sport

Sports have static rule sets

[silk rover]

doesnt change that metas evolve even in sports

[cosmic shell]

When your esports/competitive scene stops being "who's best at the game" and instead "who's best at Wukong", your competitiveness and the interest viewers have in your scene is dead

[silk rover]

the thing is you act like wukong is like

[cosmic shell]

And it's not like professional sports don't make competitive rulesets either lmao

[silk rover]

10x better than any other hero

and hes not even top 3 hero in the game

[cosmic shell]

?????

[silk rover]

you have such a flawed view of a competitive game

every single game is always about who abuses the most OP thing

[cosmic shell]

Alright ChipSa, that's enough baiting, let's get you back to your room now

[silk rover]

oath and shiv are both better heroes than wukong in comp games

[grim fox]

It doesn't, but if it's more enjoyable for players to not have to deal with Wukong, and they play scrims and can enforce that decision, than they should. Throwing your own enjoyment away for an unlikely hypothetical just seems silly

[silk rover]

pre patch atleast

[silk rover]

i agree but its also more fun for people to not deal with shiv

or void

or kingpin

or brall

or jin

you see the issue here

[cosmic shell]

I think the line is blurry, but it can definitely be drawn when something is disproportionately affecting the game

[silk rover]

yea i agree

but theres nothing that really is at that level imo

wukong is really strong dont get me wrong

but he isnt anywhere near as strong as prime oath

or hudson

or brall

imo

[cosmic shell]

Ehh

Problem with Wukong is slam is ultimately un-interactive

At least Brall, Oath, Hudson had to be in your line of sight

[silk rover]

yea i dont disagree

but you can win without wukong very easily

like he's mostly just cancer

[cosmic shell]

And had some opportunities for punish, despite their numerically higher power budget

Yeah he's just cancer

[silk rover]

so the game isnt even close to

who has the better wukong wins

like you said

[cosmic shell]

It's a hyperbole of course

But it's like ardent censer

You could win without it

But should you?

[proper wigeon]

2017 Faker 🥲

[cosmic shell]

Do you want to "handicap" yourself by kneecapping your power budget?

[silk rover]

i feel like you complain about the 3rd best hunter in the game and comparing it to ardent

is a bit crazy

and in games

what makes the best players