Wukong dunking over abyss from out of vision might be the coolest mechanic I've ever witnessed in a

[delicate bronze]

just because we tend to be more aggresive doesnt matter our feedback is worse or smth lol

[alpine dune]

That was a pretty good change imo

[keen ferry]

a lot of u guys aren't acknowledging the dev side of things is the problem (if that is the case)
regardless this shouldn't be a regional thing

[turbid copper]

I am EU, I care about things that affect other players besides myself, new players CARE about prisma gains.

[alpine dune]

I think adding dupe protection and whatever you guys talked about with focusing specific items would fix the armory from an out of game sense

[chilly parrot]

I think if you say:
-"this design is fucking trash and the people responsible should be fired"

vs.
-"I really hate this design I wish the devs would change it"

it's substantially easier to reply to the second one than the first one

[cosmic yew]

non sponsored streamers that care, also arent very happy with the system is worth pointing out.

[turbid copper]

Prisma/Armory is DIRECTLY linked to how new player either perceive the game and linked to the retention in this game.

[chilly parrot]

I think you can toss that out there but there's no substantive proof that prisma/armory are improving or hurting retention (at least not that you have available, I assume )

[cosmic yew]

The featured content creator in main menu also says interesting things!

[turbid copper]

Well looking at general complaints from new players and especially reviews etc. I'd say that Armory is definitely a HUGE topic for people who start playing the game.

[chilly parrot]

we have a bunch of data about retention (that I don't think I can share), but I don't think it's broadly out there

[fathom cosmos]

i love the armory i just wish it was handled a little differently. feels really annyoing not having the 3 stars i want while getting 225 a capsule. also there are potentially really cool things like unlocking the item in armory, get it to 2 star, then in game u have to level it up to 2 and 3 star. there are more options armory can have thatll be better designed for balance but also fun. also some of the 2 and 3 star items need to seriously be checked and nerfed or changed.

[chilly parrot]

clip lacks context

[alpine dune]

Can you say if retention is better or worse than in beta?

[astral cobalt]

the context is his teammate spam pinging him

[alpine dune]

I’m just generally curious

[delicate bronze]

well I gtg cuz I have nothing left to say

idc about armory that much, just balance your game so things like wukong and shiv wont happen again in future

[keen ferry]

dawg we have a dev opening up an important convo about the armory system and general approach to balancing

why are we using this time to randomly bring up nidhogg

[candid onyx]

the context is litterally just raging at a teammate lols

[cosmic yew]

i had a good opening for it

[sacred temple]

I mean he is peak content if anything

that audio clip is just so funny

[zealous mesa]

what context makes it fine to say this openly?

[spice chasm]

My point was that having just a few of the top scrimming teams test beforehand and you would find nearly all the problems instantly

[chilly parrot]

what is this sound-clip-only music edit - some kind of dedicated hate farming??

[cosmic yew]

just making a little joke

[sacred temple]

luca didnt make it, it was someone else its been posted a lot tbf and is pretty old

[turbid copper]

I agree, with barek. If you had in general NDA testing with a scrim team lobby you'd find SO MANY bugs you can fix and so many busted things you can sort out before rolling out a patch.

[chilly parrot]

I don't think I can share details at all unfortunately, but also, broadly speaking, we measure retention in chunks, D1, D8, D28

[cosmic yew]

but the point i was trying to make is, the language many of us used is the language your promoted streamers also use

[turbid copper]

and I can tell you FOR SURE nobody would want any money for it, they'd do it for free.

[cosmic yew]

if i dig deep i will find multiple clips of nidhogg raging out over balance in league and saying devs need to be fired etc

[sacred temple]

I mean how many players were testing pre-alpha just because they wanted to be here

[chilly parrot]

if you want to play a live, character based PvP game where no characters are ever imbalanced for > than 2 weeks, good luck 🙏

[cosmic yew]

anyway idc, i find the guy funny

[sacred temple]

I also think though when you guys got us to test trios and then basically said its going though no matter the feedback it feels pretty shitty to just waste peoples time

[chilly parrot]

I'm definitely interested in doing a little bit of that more. Particularly for stuff like bhopping or other tech that are unintended or ungated being discovered in that kind of testing. It's on my list of things to see how we can fit it in our dev schedule.

[proper bison]

to late

[alpine dune]

That would be amazing

[proper bison]

unlucky

[turbid copper]

I really hope you do this rather soon and not gated to NA.

no hate to NA but yknow different meta etc.

[alpine dune]

I know the wukong pod racing (bunny hopping) tech was discovered by rtk a top level scrim player in half an hour lmao

[cosmic yew]

Allot of frustration comes from the fact that it feels like no experieced players are able to test hunters beforehand, many of these problems wouldve been pointed out before release if this was the case, for instance tomkick / lemur always have preview vids and guides ahead of time, but it feels like they dont get the chance to actually voice their concerns or have any impact on the balance of said characters

[alpine dune]

So that could help

[keen ferry]

uh I don't know how much I can confirm but some hunters were tested and tweaked before release

tetra's kit was def stronger and got tweaked because of feedback i think

[sacred temple]

I mean there was a test with creators

[chilly parrot]

Streamers are creating an entertainment product, if that's how they get viewers, it is what it is. Tyler1 is incredibly popular for his behavior, I am not a fan, but ultimately that's his market and I respect that's how he wants to create content. I don't think it is appropriate to censor or change who you invite to participate in an open, free to play game, beyond hate-speech level stuff. If you don't like their content, don't watch it. We had T1 emotes in the game at Beta, I don't watch T1

[sacred temple]

some of whom had under 10 hours in the game

I dont know how much influence we are wanting them to have on balance

[cosmic yew]

oh for sure, fully agree with u here

[spice chasm]

Thoughts, lets not talk about random creators and instead about the game?

[keen ferry]

what i was saying earlier..

[cosmic yew]

But for example, for characters like Jin or Eva to truly be balanced, you have to contact the actuall players who have experience with / against her.

Jin couldve used some land fighting buffs for a year now, something simple like a antiheal on dagger and in return his abyss combat and mobility can be tuned down allot

[chilly parrot]

in some ways you're making the argument that: changes we know are controversial for current community but probably valuable to expand the overall community shouldn't be playtested with veterans because they will feel disrespected.

Imagine, hypothetically, you have a change that will alienate 10% of the current community, but add an extra 100% of new players. Would you make that change? At what % does playtesting with the veterans feel bad? I think what you're expressing is valid, but it is complicated and I don't see a "right" answer

[delicate bronze]

I'm sorry but when I first time read what vive infusor do, my first reaction was "isn't that item broken on someone like shiv" and yea it is absolutly broken on her

same with sunweaver

[proper bison]

how can i get a job at TC, cant be that hard

[delicate bronze]

I can understand Wukong being broken but not Shiv

[cosmic yew]

Respect for 1v9ing this chat btw @chilly parrot while i disagree with many things u say, what ur doing here is goated

[turbid copper]

I agree things like this is also why I don't understand how some things even make it into the game. It took me ONE READ through what grappling hook does at 2 and 3 star to realize that just CANNOT be balanced. And guess what, it isn't.

[cosmic yew]

Grabby the squid 😻

[sacred temple]

Okay sure but then you ask us to test it and then it felt a little bit like you spat in our face after for lack of a better term. I agree that maybe you saw that it was for the greater good but then why ask all of us to play it and then from my understanding at least a majority of EU didnt like it, and then have us deal with anyways. I'm not saying trios is the end of the world but I think how the situation was handled wasnt very good.

[cosmic yew]

more mobility on a 1k item than eva has with full dash haste

[delicate bronze]

okay seriousy gtg, im afraid of ban hammer

[sacred temple]

Not trying to hate or stir the pot just a genuine point of how that test felt as a player.

[cosmic yew]

thats good to hear, she still released with a bug that made her fully immune to damage and her perma-cc chain is a bit much

[elfin orbit]

I second the sentiment.

[keen ferry]

yeah that's why I am more inclined to support having more high-skill players in the more closed playtests

[honest turtle]

How much effort is being put into market analysis?

[forest kestrel]

this will never happen

[rigid sigil]

Koalifoer in chat pog

Hi Koal

[forest kestrel]

as we have been proven

[keen ferry]

yea im using that ss ironically

[chilly parrot]

I don't think we need to "contact the players", we can just read the feedback that people post!

[rigid sigil]

I think personally I'd like to see a closed playtest with a scrim lobby if for no other reason than we're typically going to be better at sussing out super buggy or broken stuff to abuse than the avg player.

[chilly parrot]

I think it would help a lot if antiheal were easier to get - Festering Jawblade being LMB-only was always hard to apply for certain characters

[turbid copper]

yes, once again IF you were to do this, it'd be nice to not be gated to NA only.

[forest kestrel]

yea but the problem there is anyone can say whatever they want with no validity

[cosmic yew]

Allot of feedback, including my own, is heavily skewed by spur of the moment emotions, i was personally contacted by safelocked about elluna feedback and was able to provide a full paragraph on her strenghs, weaknesses and issues a few months ago, while my feedback posts in the discord just kinda said "Elluna is unplayable pls fix.."

[chilly parrot]

IIRC we tried to communicate, basically - "Trios is happening for XYZ reasons, please come test and help us make it better from a tuning perspective", but it was a while ago so I don't remember

[chilly parrot]

highly mechanical items need to be strong to even remotely compete with items like isochron's (spoilers, they still don't compete with it)

[alpine dune]

I played in that playtest and loved it :>

[cosmic yew]

I think any player thats committed over 1k hours to the game will happily share his thoughts in a neutral manner if contacted, sprocaine for saros would be a example

[chilly parrot]

I imagine if we went and pulled the winrate for Grabby vs. iso's it would be iso's #1 by an absolute landslide

[spare barn]

tbh this is the part of the armory that i really did like, potentially being able to add more variable builds to counter particular things (though I feel more relic shops should be present late game so you can actually adapt your build to the other teams)

[keen ferry]

just make sure EU players don't feel so comfortable being toxic 🙂

[spice chasm]

Thats where your stats do not show the whole picture im afraid

[fathom cosmos]

thats because iso is a stat stick that benefits every single hunter. doesnt make 3 star grippy not imbalanced

its also much easier to just pick a stat stick and not think. doesnt mean balanced between the two options tho.

[alpine dune]

active items have to be over tuned

just look at league

[keen ferry]

the point is that the average player is pretty terrible at utilizing the item effectively no?

[forest kestrel]

but atleast EU people give honest and reasonable feedback and dont play nice with mods cause idk

[alpine dune]

if they aren't then they're unusable because so few people use active items on cd

[spice chasm]

YEA BECAUSE THEY CANT UTILIZE THE OTHER ITEM PROPERLY. ITS LIKE SAYING A STAT STICK IMPROVES WIN RATE MORE THAN AN ACTIVE THAT PEOPLE DONT USE??? LIKE FUCKING OF COURSE. THERES LITERALLY NO THOUGHT BEHIND THAT ANSWER ISTG

[chilly parrot]

the wallstun lockout and shield thing were hotfixed! Definitely a miss to have those go out. Working on improving the testing. Keep in mind we're releasing a hunter every two weeks right now, we chose content over precision. If you want more precise releases with less bugs, check out games that release new characters once every 6 months, it's a lot easier that way 🙂

Not trying to make excuses, but being honest about the reality of the dev velocity we are trying to work at here

[cosmic yew]

Thats definitely a interesting statement, any player with over 200 hours would most likely tell you that its by far the strongest item in the game, especially with all the cheese it enables. The root being exchanged for a 99% slow, so that it becomes dashable, would be a great change.

[turbid copper]

so because the avg player is bad at utilizing it means it should be turbo broken ? Maybe it should just be an item that gets more use when you're better at the game instead of buffing the shit out of it so everyone can use it.

[chilly parrot]

a huge amount!

[keen ferry]

"honest" feedback does not need to personally flame the devs dawg

[alpine dune]

"playing nice with mods" is just being professional and respectfull...

[limpid night]

How are you tracking data/feedback from new players? Have you considered surveys in game that reward capsules? That could be a good way to look at direct feedback while also tying it to account playtime

[cosmic yew]

Oh i ditched those games (dota) long ago, supervive is just much better, hence to why im so passionate / frustrated with my feedback often.
I see many things in a very critical way especially since all my friends from dota quit supervive because of stuff like wukong slam, grappling hook kingpin etc.

[chilly parrot]

I think that's a particularly high-value proposition for having "high elo previews"

logistically, getting that together without leaks when we're pushing out a patch every two weeks would be hard. Maybe per-hunter release, not sure. Would need to clean some other stuff internally to make that possible, but as the QA Lead for the project, it's something I would love as an extra backstop for stuff like Tetra's RMB shield bug

[candid onyx]

idk how to word this differently so sorry i know it sounds rude and snarky but i can’t think of better wording, what exactly is highly mechanical abt a 2 second 2 charge pull?

[haughty ridge]

major props for hopping into the lions den

and I mean that sincerely lol

[forest kestrel]

im not saying flame the devs im just saying if something is shit we will say its shit not be like uhm idk this might be a little bad but no worries

[chilly parrot]

we really love to get clips showcasing feedback for this reason

[keen ferry]

i mean I agree but i just want to at least point out it's not that simple to balance the item in a way that still makes it worth getting 3*

[alpine dune]

that is just being professional man...

[granite bear]

Is there a reason arena maps are getting "refreshed"? Did the arena playerbase spike significantly for it to be worth working on?

[haughty ridge]

youre underestimating how bad the average player is

[keen ferry]

i mean that's fine, saying "how do you guys have a job" is not fine or "are you stupid for letting this through" is also not fine

[chilly parrot]

the top 1% is always going to be a different game - in some ways if we balance for that specific group then no one else gets to have fun. All the actives have to be ass

[limpid night]

How are you tracking data/feedback from new players? Have you considered surveys in game that reward capsules? That could be a good way to look at direct feedback while also tying it to account playtime @chilly parrot

[haughty ridge]

grabby is definitely broken for good players but im guessing the average player cant aim it properly or even process the amt of movement available by grabby on a 2 sec cd

[cosmic yew]

I dont think grappling hook needs to be completely overtuned, just because new players arent great at using it. Its part of the games retention figuring out how to properly utilize items. A example for this would be stasis shard, why on earth would a newer player use this when it provides little stat benefits? @chilly parrot

[honest turtle]

Did u guys consider sponsoring a PRO play scene with teams etc.

[haughty ridge]

its definitely a hard item to use, even though it is completely broken

[forest kestrel]

i mean ye ofc

[keen ferry]

you seem to get it, other people not as much!

[sacred temple]

this is a really good clip https://www.twitch.tv/blackrog/clip/ProtectiveShortWerewolfPartyTime-R-TJvXaTBmh0ZTmo?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time

[forest kestrel]

xdd

[sacred temple]

https://www.twitch.tv/blackrog/clip/SarcasticDaintyAyeayeBlargNaut-XzSeE9xFx3qqboWh?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time continuation

rank 1 eu player btw

[forest kestrel]

my save is clean tho no?

[sacred temple]

crashing out

[candid onyx]

^ even just putting a panel like sponsored creator with the date and link to castor pov for a small show match or tourney would be really cool

[chilly parrot]

I think the spell behavior gets confusing without the root unfortunately (where does the grapple end if the target starts moving at the speed of light while I'm grappling? Stuff like that. Agreed it would nerf it a ton

[spice chasm]

Bro, we have suggested multiple small fixes (like remove grounding so dunking isnt guaranteed everytime) that would not effect the lower elo players but would drastiscally decrease its power level in high elo. Like i just dont fucking get it man

[alpine dune]

what if the grapple was a 99% slow and was broken when someone dashed

[chilly parrot]

we are tracking with "big data" aka stuff on the backend we get for free like retention, etc.

we have new player surveys!

[keen ferry]

im ngl I think only the 1k hour players think like this

[turbid copper]

Yes but I'd say it's still better to release something slightly underwhelming (which it still wouldn't be 1* grapple itself is already pretty good) then to release something completely broken. As I said I think anyone with more than ~50-100 hours in the game reads what 3* grapple does and instantly goes "Isn't this a bit too much ?"

[spice chasm]

This is another thing any high elo player (if they got to playtest) would point out btw, but we dont fsr

[sacred temple]

2nd most viewed clip last 7 days xdd

[cosmic yew]

It could still mini-root for 0.1 seconds for the initial momentum killer, but counterplay needs to exist for this item urgently, sure i can run airblast / stasis shard, or even emergency platform. But this item has 2 charges now and either way ill get slammed on land with the eplat still.

[chilly parrot]

you have to aim

High level players are notoriously bad at estimating the skill of low level players. I've had this issue for years personally, it's taken a lot of training and practice to learn how to listen to the experience of players that can't aim, can't move, don't have hands, etc.

(not like literally no hands, like they just struggle to execute)

[keen ferry]

I think that's good for game balance, but I think the idea was to give items "oomph" to make it worth grinding for

[cosmic yew]

ur welcome

[turbid copper]

so in other words its quite literally just engagement bait ?

[silk rover]

for sure i think the concept of balancing items around winrate will always make high level games very imbalanced

[chilly parrot]

contrary to popular belief, we do not hate arena players - we thought they would like it!

[limpid night]

I would love to hear more about this. My concern might be that some of this data such as retention could be misleading from what some players actually like, and what they are tolerating until they choose to not play. I think a survey on the client could be a good way to get actual pain points before some players want to opt out

[sacred temple]

I mean if they are bad with the item anyways why can we just not nerf it for the good players

wont matter to them anyways

[candid onyx]

i was/am silver in league of legends, gold in valorant, and diamond in OW i am a very mid tier player

[keen ferry]

ur also like rank 10 na in this game so

[haughty ridge]

but youre very good at supervive :)

[spice chasm]

yea lets balance the game around players who can not use their mouse at all! yep that checks out!

[silk rover]

graplle vs CDR staff is a good example of like grapple will always have a lower winrate because it takes some degree of skill to use vs a passive buff, the issue becomes when an item like grapple compleltly removes all forms of counterplay when used on certain hunters it basically removes any enjoyment from playing against them

[turbid copper]

This is exactly what I was saying aswell, it makes no sense to buff something to the point where everyone can use it. Just keep it underwhelming for players who just can't use it and let them use other relics instead.

[candid onyx]

i have played this game with my sister who has never been past iron 3 in val or league and she hit a grapple slam on KP

[cosmic yew]

I have to urgently point-out that disabling the contract killer perc, to avoid every arena game being decided by round 2, would be great. Im aware the team focuses on battle royale above all, but arena currently is in a terrible snowballing state.

[silk rover]

like KP grapples me from out of vision there is nothing i can actually do to survive that encounter, he just hits his button that has 0 risk and i'm dead

thats the frustrating part

winrate will never show the level of frustration that that is

[frank sapphire]

jepjep

[chilly parrot]

I'm happy with "I don't understand how X shipped in this state" or "I can't believe the devs think this is okay" or "I don't get why the devs would do this?"

My line for a good actual question is whether it actually invites conversation. "This guy should be fired" - "this is shit" etc. don't invite conversation. Imagine having a conversation IRL, someone says "I'm a lawyer" and you say "lawyers are shit".... what do they say? vs you could say "hm, I feel like lawyers are kind of bad for the fabric of society, I don't like ambulance chasers" - even though it's a sharp opinion, it opens a conversation

[hot iron]

I will say this game does struggle very much from things that are fun to play, but not at all fun to play against

[candid onyx]

that’s my point also this game is mechanically very simple compared to most

[hot iron]

e.g. wukong , grapple slam characters

[candid onyx]

not a bad thing at all i love the game

[candid onyx]

12 people have fun 24 have non

bad ratio

[tawdry lion]

that aint bush

[cosmic yew]

https://www.reddit.com/r/supervive/comments/1mgh3kh/in_counter_to_the_nerf_x_threads_my_own_opinion/ this reddit post was a pretty good summary

[chilly parrot]

again, veteran players are terrible at estimating how new players will play. I think stasis/grabby are situationally powerful. That's good! If we make that not-so, then not even high skill players could use them

[keen ferry]

yea that's fair

[cosmic yew]

"Theorycraft clearly values the enjoyment of the player dominating the match over the experience of everyone else. Champions are built to steamroll and frustrate, not create genuinely balanced fights."

Is there truth to this? Because it feels like it often. @chilly parrot

[sacred temple]

I think you are underestimating how infuriating this grapple is to play against

[granite bear]

Are there going to be changes regarding arena beacons respawn time theres a lot of ppl that are losing mental over it (prob seen on discussions already but at least some info would be nice!)

[chilly parrot]

2-3 things related to that clip that we are looking at, which I mentioned in response wayyyyyy up there somewhere. Wukong is still weak at most levels of play.

[sacred temple]

I appreciate you are currently 1v9 in this thread but grapple is just an unreal item

[forest kestrel]

chat get the grapple clips

[turbid copper]

Can you please explain to me what exactly is situational about grabby ?

[astral cobalt]

I rememeber when u guys said the same about brall.....

[alpine dune]

what is the philosophy thus far with tuning back over preforming items since we haven't had any non bug fix changes to items yet are you guys holding off to wait for more players to get experince with higher star items

[honest turtle]

I think winning is just more fun than losing? Wouldn’t it be silly to not get benefits of playing better

[chilly parrot]

would you ever use the item if people could just dash out of it instantly and you lost your movement?

[alpine dune]

idk just spit balling

[candid onyx]

so then what abt my statement of brand new players hitting grapple slams on their 2nd or 3rd attempt

[alpine dune]

a lot of people had suggested that

[keen ferry]

basically bungee and why people dont use it as much

[sacred temple]

like its not fun to play against this stuff and its not competitive I cannot see the upside to it existing in its current state

[candid onyx]

weak champs can still feel bad to fight

[alpine dune]

maybe at 2 or 3 star it could root

but idk

[sacred temple]

bungee was fine when it was a power just as a 0 stats relic its not worth the slot

[keen ferry]

2-3* is also when it's op so doesn't fix much

[astral cobalt]

Wukong may be weak BUT HE IS UNFUN TO PLAY AGAINST GETTING SLAMMED BY SOMEONE OFF UR SCREEN IS NOT FUN CHAT

[candid onyx]

just cause wukong is weak doesn’t mean he is fun to fight

[candid onyx]

^^^

[frank sapphire]

https://tenor.com/view/typing-several-people-are-typing-gif-15407184

[rigid sigil]

It would just act similar Brall chain on a dashing hunter no? Not do defend that Brall interaction it feels real bad to me but I would assume it would act similarly. Maybe it could just bring you to the initial point of contact for consistency sake. Though I do see the value and creativity that pulling you toward moving targets can add.

[alpine dune]

I'm not a game dev for a reason

[zealous mesa]

The reason why people dont use bungee much is because you would generally use it on the same hunters you use grabby on, and theres no reason to use it when grabby exists in its current state

[keen ferry]

yea that's what I meant, the power level is almost objectively lower

[cosmic yew]

The root could last 0.1-0.2 seconds, but having it root THIS LONG is not fair, theres even combos with beebo where u grappling root them over abyss into the ice zeep, and they fall to their death with no counterplay.

[zealous mesa]

It is objectively lower by a lot

[tawdry lion]

i really like this idea, but then it feels bad to have literally a champion ability as a power lol

[sacred temple]

even if grapple didnt root you can still hit combos and catch people off and without dashes ect

[fathom cosmos]

plus 2 second cd on 2 charges for movement

[keen ferry]

-# also would probably be good if people didn't reiterate the same points to prevent chat spam

[fathom cosmos]

doesnt even need to be omega strong against ppl

[rigid sigil]

I've played exactly 2 games of arena since 1.0 dropped and I think with very small QoL changes like teams getting a fixed amount of gold per round would be super nice. The builds scaling in strength as the rounds tick on is a super fun part of current arena when the matches are pretty even, but the gold reward on kills and wins makes it a lil too snowbally for me to enjoy rn

[keen ferry]

-# let him respond to grapple first then go off that

[turbid copper]

As I asked before, I would really like to know exactly how grapple/grabby is situational when it can literally be used in EVERY situation.

[chilly parrot]

some golden metrics are things like:
retention - AKA if you play the game today, do you come back to play again tomorrow? The next day?
session length - AKA when you play the game, how many games do you play?
average games for new player - how many games does the average new player play?

I'm curious how you would tease out the effects of various systems on that.

Let's say hypothetically retention and session length are both better in 1.0 than OB - how would you assign responsibility for those improvements to different changes in the game?

Same question for the inverse, how would you assign causation for a loss in retention?

[wet flower]

I think youve done the opposite though, youve alienated the current community and made it so people dont want to even try the game with the current gacha system and trios.

[hot iron]

A huge issue I have is that you guys seem to only look at the numbers, It's like you think that if the winrate is below average it has to be bad.

Wukong M2 in my opinion is the single most jarring ability in the entire game, every other slam needs to be used in your face and is extremely high risk. Wukong just hovers in the air with his 500hp shield almost completely invulnerable and he can slam you almost immediately from a screens distance. But you refuse to nerf him at all because his winrate is too low.

To me this is just an absurd way of thinking, if you sat down with high level players and talked to them and let them show you why they find stuff like this frustrating they'd happily give their ideas on where to shift power in their kit, you don't have to gut the character. Just make the game fun for both parties, because as it is right now Wukong takes all the fun out of the game for the person facing them.

[chilly parrot]

those are all top50% or higher ranks

[frigid rapids]

how do you feel
about punch reliq as it relates to bishop punch?

[chilly parrot]

totally not an uncharitable take on what I said

[astral cobalt]

koalifier on the frontlines in this thread

legit 1v50 jubilee video

[minor silo]

He's Shiv with vive infusor, he'll live

[frank sapphire]

3 star btw

[cosmic yew]

His team hits 6 second beacon if he ever falls

[hot iron]

he got luckier gg

[rigid sigil]

Koalifier popping off today. This chat is gonna be in the next Zodag video

[spice chasm]

Yea that was in bad faith, but how do you repond to that message and not the one that mentions grapple ground nerf which should already be in the game

[sacred temple]

dont worry the crown will insta rez on knock its fine

[candid onyx]

i also mentioned (i assume it got lost in all the post not that ur ignoring it) that i then played with people who r consistently bottom of the ladder players are able to replicate it with no teaching just watching me play

[spice chasm]

Another point is we are ALL complaining about 1 power active. All the other actives have to have complete horrible stats as well but these are not being touched.

[candid onyx]

well things like paladins primer r genuinely unusable

[chilly parrot]

yeah I think as many have pointed out, the rooting behavior is the part that tends to take characters over the line. I think there's a lot of weird other behavior that would happen if we just ripped it off. That's not saying we shouldn't remove the grounding behavior, but explaining why we can't "just do it" right away. Would require more extensive testing. Since people are grinding for certain items/builds, we shouldn't just yolo-slam balance changes to these items IMO, unless they are clearly over the line (and this one is NOT clearly over the line, it's really powerful on some hunters in some circumstances at only 1 elo)

[rigid sigil]

Mid-chat break to remind Koalifier that we appreciate the dialogue happening here.

I do not envy being in your shoes right now, keep it up man.

[keen ferry]

i also feel like it doesn't happen much/at all in lower elo games. And then for streams it depends on who u watch

[spare barn]

as far as I understand the reason he is pushing for surveys (with prisma incentives so you can likely get a large response pool) is largely because of how hard it is to assign blame to specific decisions when you are looking at the statistics

[silk rover]

I think the problem with items like grapple and many other mechanics is that so many of them feel cheap/cheesy and this compleltly devalues the best point of the game which is the combat, it also feels like alot of these mechanics exist to try and give newer players a chance vs better players but what happens if that the good players just abuse the cheesy mechanics so much that again the combat gets devalued even further

[thin basin]

Wouldn't removing the ground on grabby just make it like brall's chain thingy?

[frank sapphire]

https://tenor.com/view/cuh-guh-buh-gif-26372267

[candid onyx]

ig that’s true,
ur saying they just aren’t seeing the idea of the play so they won’t go for it then?

[candid onyx]

it’s not a hands issue it’s a creative thinking one?

[turbid copper]

But it's literally strong under ANY circumstance. That's the whole point, it's not like it's some situational item, you can use it in EVERY situation.

[candid onyx]

i think a big problem is the difference between mechanical skill and creative thinking as a skill also

grabby is not hard to use

u just have to think abt the different ways of using it

[chilly parrot]

this game is mechanically wild compared to VAL/League IMO

[spice chasm]

We have complained about the grounding of the grapple FOR THE WHOLE TIME THE ITEM HAS BEEN LIKE THIS. Dunking is the most OP part of this game, why is there an item that guarantees dunking??? And now you have 2 charges for fun?? AND BTW ITS 15 SECOND CD BASELINE?

[keen ferry]

yea I think the second it catches on for average players then it immediately affects the stats because once you KNOW how to do it, it's very easy to actually do, and play around instances to do it

[cosmic yew]

Grapple reminds me of the stridebreaker release in league, allowing characters like darius to suddenly have a dash, completely ruining the games enjoyment for multiple weeks / months.

[sacred temple]

I mean what I dont get is if we look at league Zed is literally kept at a low winrate because the devs KNOW he is unfun to play against I can literally find the post about it. And champs like Ryze, Azir, Kalista will always have low win rates at low mmr and better winrates at high mmr. The same way Amumu, Warwick or Yi will practically always have good winrates at low mmr. I dont see why we cant have certain hunters for certain skill levels and balance around that same with relics.

[rigid sigil]

Wait actually before I forget:

Is there any chance the survey can be moved to a more in view area? None of my friends knew it existed until I told them about it

[alpine dune]

Because league has almost 200 champions

And because a lot of people hate that type of balancing in league

[sacred temple]

Okay but cleary the way this game is being balanced isnt working

[keen ferry]

@forest kestrel

[forest kestrel]

i mean ye

but that statement is wild

[candid onyx]

i think that is a valid opinion just depends on ur skill set i really struggle with aiming i have shaky hands and the camera movement in league is increase hard for me to grasp so i cannot generally do well in them where as supervive i just press hook and slam and ult and they die the hard part of it being standing in the correct spot to hit the hook without risk

[thin basin]

Snowball in aram 👍

[forest kestrel]

Like we cant say way more mechanical that league

[spice chasm]

I was gonna mention why riot removed galeforce from ADC's years ago (because who woulda fucking though giving ADC's another dash would be a problem). This is precisely the problem we have with dunking + grappling. Dunking should have inherent risks associated with it but grappling COMPLETELY removes any risk as it guarantees the dunk

[cosmic yew]

It is, which is why getting grapple -> slammed with almost no counterplay feels even more frustrating.

[clever dust]

The grabby item is clearly OVER the line. Its long ranged, easy to hit, multiple charges,gives you incredible mobility/speed, and extremely powerful on dunking/ melee champs.
The combination of ALL of those far surpass the power level of other items.

[keen ferry]

i'm gonna assume it's from the perspective of a new/casual/average player in both games, league has way more at high skill ceiling as of now cuz people have played the game for years

[forest kestrel]

still

[candid onyx]

very interesting take could explain a lot of bias i have abt KP he may seem easy to me and then my friends watch me and copy it so they alr kno the tricks but a new player ig wouldn’t have as much base line knowledge

[halcyon hornet]

The mechanical skill of clicking the button before the other guy

[cosmic yew]

Also, if eva ult can be coded to stun less over abyss, maybe grapple can be coded not to root over abyss? 🤔

The land part of it is "fine"

[chilly parrot]

idk but I'll put it on the list to talk to people about

[keen ferry]

i think also the reason u think the game is mechanically straightforward is cuz u play kp lmao (I also do not think supervive is that mechanically intense but I think there's nuance to it!)

[granite bear]

omg thank you bless!

[silk rover]

i feel like if you have an item like grabby that if it roots its broken, and if you remove the root its useless generally that means the item is problematic

[jade lagoon]

i keep forgetting about it too 😭 and i hope(d) discord comms/chats/threads, will have similar impact too, tho.

[silk rover]

grapple always was a very polarising item before

[sacred temple]

also bumping this, wondering what you think mr koalifier

[candid onyx]

i always play easy chars tho
cypher,trundle,winston

low mechanics high brain function

[thin basin]

Would be interesting to use it as an interrupt (like a .01 sec ground) but then release them

[keen ferry]

other games have more things to track with on those characters bc of the nature of the games i think? regardless im not here to argue what he said i also disagre a little

[still tusk]

I haven't read the whole thread but I'm just curious what harm would it be to sit down and talk to the top 1% of players and try and work out some balance changes? Reading some of this one of the biggest issues seems to be we have is not feeling heard and pushed away when we try to suggest something. So I think it would go along way to atleast make an effort to make some of us feel heard instead of going to data or internal testing everything for balance/changes.
I'm sure there's alot of people here (including myself) who would love to just sit down and just talk about the game what seems to be good for the upper brackets of play and what new players are doing/working with and would add more insight on what you guys are looking at/working with.

[chilly parrot]

it's stronger when there are walls to grab vs only hunters as targets

[candid onyx]

this is only true for 3 star

[fathom cosmos]

2 charges tho even if no walls is strong.

[turbid copper]

But it's literally strong eitherway, how is this situational ? In my eyes something that's situational would mean it's either weak or strong, but it's either STRONGER or just strong 😭

[clever dust]

Do you create items with counterplay in mind? If yes what would be the counterplay to a brall with the grabby chasing you?

[chilly parrot]

I will repeat myself forever - if a character is weak at most skill levels but has a frustrating mechanic, it takes more nuance and tact to make a change than if they are just flat strong

[cosmic yew]

This item will be ran on every single character in the game once customs have 2-star items unlocked

[spare barn]

the question is whether they want to balance for us or if the focus is more on the people that are learning rn

i think that is the biggest standout here

[fathom cosmos]

like some of these armory items 2nd star is a buff, 3rd star is a buff. grabby gets 2 pretty huge changes for each star.

imo it should be more like 2 star is the change for an item, and 3 star is a stat increase. that way u still have a grind to get 3 stars but it isnt something insane like 2 second grippy.

[still tusk]

I mean it can serve as like a trial run

[cosmic yew]

In ranked its already ruining my enjoyment, i use my airblast against a KP grapple and then i get wukong slammed after

[still tusk]

do it for 1 patch

maybe 2

[chilly parrot]

100% agree

[keen ferry]

dawg atp I think the biggest question is if a discussion would happen productively

[chilly parrot]

I always wanted to be in one of those

[void fable]

except that he literally messaged me after the game and said it didn't hit on his screen either

[cosmic yew]

Ur not wrong at all, void doesnt perform and has to be one of the worst feelings whenever he hits his stun -> ult on u

[fathom cosmos]

prob lag issue then. normally looks like it hits lol

[spare barn]

few outliers but overall since I have been reading it has been majority reasonably productive

[sacred temple]

Okay but the player count is clearly dwindling how many people are going to be learning in 3 months time, I think bringing these issues up now is probably the best time if you want the game to succeed

[candid onyx]

i’d say wukong is the prime example of this

he’s “weak” according to devs

[gilded geyser]

Buff void bomb!

[spare barn]

super agree

[candid onyx]

but he is the entire reason this thread exist

[candid onyx]

WOAH WOAH WOAH

[cosmic yew]

My friend whose getting into the game and is in gold

he has no bias whatsoever and still feels the same without me ever speaking to him

[silk rover]

this is the core issue, we want the game to be a certain way e.g like what it was in the closed beta, a more competitive and balanced experience but the question is that is that going to be a sustainbale business model

[chilly parrot]

You hear me talk about the numbers a ton because I'm trying to contextualize for y'all the other side of the equation. You already know the high-elo side of things so I'm not sitting here lecturing you on how good Shiv/Grabby are at high level, I'm giving you the information that you don't have. We directly nerfed things like WK/Tetra/Jin Bhopping for example, but only because high level players brought it up, so it's not being ignored.

[honest turtle]

Tbh my friend started playing last week and tried wukong - he doesn’t feel the same, and thinks SHRIKE is OP

[chilly parrot]

aight anyway it's my kid's birthday and he woke up from his nap now so I cannot spam respond anymore, I'll swing by again later

[cosmic yew]

And she def is, a 2-tap character that wins 80% of her drops is very oppresive and bad design, ive always agreed with this, the frustration curve usually gos from "I hate shrike" -> "I hate brall" -> "I hate wukong!"

[clever dust]

People wouldnt mind those items, if they had more counterplay and more time TO counterplay.
When a team engages the battle is over in a few seconds.
Wouldnt it help the player retention more if people had more health, less movement speed, slower fights and overall a less oneshotty feeling?

[cosmic yew]

Ty for the chat, much respect as always to ur contribution and the fact youre willing to do this, and have a nice celebration!

[sacred temple]

I mean I think if this game had more competitive integrity and was made into a more competitive game it would be more marketable and applicable to the large league audience they targeted there marketing towards at least. Even a silver league player can still be 'competitive' regardless of rank. I think its way more of a mindset of a player than the actual rank that is important. But I dont think currently this game scratches the same +20 -20 lp addiction league players have. At the end of the day I think large player number probably = more money and currently I think the game isnt fufilling enough for people to invest time/money.

[elfin orbit]

Tbh funny how starved the community is for any dev interaction.
Like a child with abandoment isses trying to keep their dad from leaving

[sacred temple]

Skill expression in SV is just so weird as well

[keen ferry]

@chilly parrot lowkey would it be possible to have more convos like this in a thread with other devs... I liked some of the points brought up here specifically between higher-elo players

[silk rover]

the big issue with the casual vs comp is that we were sold the line that it was going to be a competitive 10k+ hours game and now the level of depth keeps getting stripped away patch by patch in order to make the game more and more casual. I dont think a game being casual is bad but its like i feel i'd rather have the game be casual in the first place than it being a high skill compettive game and then those part being eroded over time. Basically it feels bad to have the parts of the game that you liked stripped away rather than it just being casual in the first place

[cosmic yew]

There is a world where this can easily be hosted in a controlled setting, so that people like me dont just sit here letting their emotions speak for them, handpicking a few select players to voice frustrations would be in everyones best interest

[distant idol]

It's not like top players are going to ignore the low elo perspective, I think even the best shrikes and Hudsons see that they're problematic for most levels of play if they're good and would offer opinions that reflect that. It's not like we want to jam our interpretation of the game down everyone's throats. But I think it's also a bit disrespectful to the lower skill players to assume they won't get better and the game shouldn't be balanced for when they do. There's countless examples of metas and tech from high mmr trickling down to low mmr in every other competitive game. I just don't agree that balancing for high mmr is fundamentally opposed to improving the low mmr experience

[keen ferry]

would be nice to be able to have one person moderate to filter out bad actors from speaking permanently

would filter itself pretty quickly

[sacred temple]

I think this game will never succeed as a casual game, if you add ranked and all these other features and want it to feel like winning matters and then strip it down to a casual level it just feels like a mess.

[keen ferry]

I think it's just a matter of first getting the game to be able to sustain a casual/average playerbase before it can be balanced to be competitive

[silk rover]

i agree, what this game does best is the more competitive team based fights and complex macro decions

[sacred temple]

Like I said even silver league players I'd argue mostly have a competitive mindset. They might play casually but they want to WIN and feel like it matters.

[silk rover]

i think tailoring the game to be aimed towards soloq rather than trying to add features like a LFG system is the biggest mistake that this game made

[cosmic yew]

dev gone wrap it up lil bro 💀

[silk rover]

whether it would succeed as a comp type game is also up for debate aswell i grant you that

[clever dust]

Wasnt it the other way around for most online games? be it warcraft, starcraft or tft, they designed it around high competitors first, then alot of people wanted to join in creating the casual scene

[haughty ridge]

I work on a big AAA game and the way we get a lot of community insight w players is we just keep an open dialogue in dms w big streamers/comp players who have productive mindsets and arent stupid. jumping in 1v50 like this honestly doesnt get much done. most of the time we get alerted of important things to take note of pretty early on because of these ppl

[candid onyx]

OW had a cool LFG system i liked it, would’ve been cool to have had as a beginner in SV

[sacred temple]

Yeah sure but I think it has better odds. I think like cs, apex, league, dota are all inherently competitive as games but still satisfy a casual player.

[sterile bone]

I was really happy when I saw this lol. First thing I tested and i was scared it was gonna be infinite, glad it wasn't

[cosmic yew]

" But I think it's also a bit disrespectful to the lower skill players to assume they won't get better and the game shouldn't be balanced for when they do." 🔥 best summary ngl

[sacred temple]

and I mean ye look at the ladder how many people are lower than 100rp gm and just stop playing

solo q is torture

[silk rover]

i just dont see a BR game ever having a good soloq experience

unless its a solo game

[sacred temple]

Ye I dont think any of them do

[cosmic yew]

in other battle-royales u can atleast have more impact, a 1v4 in PUBG is def possible depending on the scenario

[haughty ridge]

ehhh I think beta was pretty okay solo before the mm got insanely fucked

[cosmic yew]

this game constantly balances around 1vX but the only real 1vX mechanic is getting 1 single knock with a crown, therefore ending the 1vX xd

[clever dust]

especially true with plays like leesin , it was done once in a high elo match, now that exact move became mainstream and used often even in silver elo. The average silver player improved mechanically drastically over the years

[silk rover]

but i also dont think many people play games like pubg/apex soloq

[sacred temple]

lower ttk = easier to outplay though

[silk rover]

most people will q with friends

[haughty ridge]

like if lobbies could fill with all master players or whatever it would be a decent time

[keen ferry]

uhh I can't speak for warcraft/starcraft but I think for tft they do a good blend of both, originally the game was built to play casually cuz the balancing was atrocious for the first few sets but they learned

[haughty ridge]

but that was never the case

[wet flower]

Heavily agree I think they are trying to turn this game into a casual game and I dont think anyone is gonna play this game casually when better options like BF6 / Marvel Rivals / etc. This game felt special when it was squads with powers, I like the new relic system but completely discarding powers and remaking some of them to consumables was huge mistake imo. The complete removal of meaningful objectives is absolutely insane to me, the game feels so lost right now.

[cosmic yew]

the average skillevel in supervive is so much higher than it used to be, back in january i would just solo run accross the entire map looking to 1v4 teams, and it either worked or i just dashed out because i knew movement tech they didnt

[keen ferry]

yea I agree (I think they had smthn like that but it fizzled out)

[silk rover]

yea agreed

back in nov/dec tehre was basically 2 good teams in EU just running every lobby

that isnt the case any more

theres atleast 15-20 teams who can atleast compete

[cosmic yew]

every team has its moments

is the best summary

[turbid copper]

glad to be one of those teams 😎

[silk rover]

maybe not win

but like

[cosmic yew]

consistant teams are still rare tho

[silk rover]

back then

[tawdry lion]

i dont think the wukong slam should have a stun on it. it really messes up a lot of characters. if anything a slow maybe is fine given its reach. i notably play hudson and wukong just invalidates my whole character.

[cosmic yew]

unless ur TSM, 3rd best team in europe

[silk rover]

there was 2 teams

and maybe tom kicks team that could win games

everyone else couldnt

not anymore

[cosmic yew]

We offered SB (4th best team) coaching sessions but they declined, really says allot about society.

ragebaiting in a chat that they dont even read what am i doing bro

[halcyon hornet]

Could we perhaps put chat in slowmode and ban Reval?

[clever dust]

The game was way slower as 4, positioning and coordination mattered more ,which is why a high elo team could steamroll others.
Now everything is more volatile and teams dont have the luxury to run an oath for holding positons

[silk rover]

yea thats partially true

since the skill cap is so much lower now the gap will always shrink

[elfin orbit]

I just see fights errupt and people roll the dice a little on living/dying

[cosmic yew]

real

[void fable]

First off, thank you for responding to all these questions. I'm glad to be respectful when communication is there.

I'm quite literally losing my mind playing against Wukong. I cannot tell you how many times I have been slammed and the visuals are not aligning with what is actually happening. Not to mention he can get away free with either pole + podracing away or ult which is on a 2 seconds cooldown with songbow/cdr items. The main problem I have is that it doesn't feel interactable. Especially when the visuals do not line up on my (or the wukong's) end. I cannot dodge something that the screen is effectively lying to me about the range. The gameplay feels as if I have little agency over the outcome until the circle is so small that he has nowhere to run. Otherwise, he is so fast that he will live forever until he is cornered in a 4ft by 4ft box.

Additionally, the character also feels uninteractable when he is slamming through walls, off screen. He is the only character that doesn't have to commit to going over the abyss to slam someone. He can just sit behind a large wall in late game circles and just smack people over and over with no risk or consequence. To me, that is the definition of an uninteractable mechanic.

I love that we're getting new players, and I'm honestly willing to make sacrifices to make the game pop off. But Wukong is genuinely infuriating. I honestly feel resentment for the inclusion of such a hunter that gives such little agency to the people facing him. It is not simply about balance. There needs to be something done to allow players more options against a hunter that has ALL the options at his disposal.

[storm kite]

Oh wow, a person that finally understands what we hate about wukong

welcome to the fanclub

[radiant saddle]

🤡

[loud wedge]

You can dunk him if he is just chilling on the RMB. Slam the bottom and he gets dunked.

There IS a very small timing window where he can jump off at max height and dodge a dunk, but it's very small.

[halcyon hornet]

But to dunk him, you have to approach him, and then he dunks you ?

[silk rover]

tbh the clip is so funny it should be fine

its just a shame i got banned from his stream for clipping that

but it was so worth it

[radiant saddle]

you took one for the team. respect

[loud wedge]

Approaching him is actually a good way to avoid being dunked. If he's on his RMB, it's basically impossible to be stun/dunked if you go directly under him.

[clever dust]

Its also weird that the typical design philosophy of other games isnt applied to all characters. like the trinity of damage dealer, tank, and healer.

Tanks should be slower, more tanky, deal less dmg.
Assasins should be more agile, deal qucik bursts but also be more squishy.

Whereas brall and shiv deal massive dmg, yet are just as tanky as other characters (if not more with their heals)

[radiant saddle]

Guys can we just let wukong have his bullshit.

[void fable]

fuck maybe ur right

I've seen the light

all hail Wukong

[radiant saddle]

Also give hudson back his bullshit please

[elfin orbit]

Can we let everyone have their bullshit back as well?

[void fable]

give hudson 3 dash charges

[radiant saddle]

And felix

[clever dust]

and wukong being tanky and super agile with huge aoe - who thought of that being good design?

[elfin orbit]

Tripple the healing he used to have

And make it not counterable by anti heal

[void fable]

just break the shield and the monkey comes down

proof that it works

[fathom cosmos]

feel like his shield is a meme

should just make him immune cuz no one is doing enough dmg to break that lmao

[clever dust]

just break his 700 HP shield within 1.5 sceonds*

[void fable]

was just about to say that

[silk rover]

they should give his shield the same treatment that tetra rmb had

cheeky bit of invuln

[void fable]

ban it from scrims? 🙂

[fathom cosmos]

1.5 seconds if he wants to wait that long lol. he can choose to fly away if he wants.

[silk rover]

oh god not the ban in scrims discussion again

i have too much ptsd from this talk

[cosmic yew]

based

[void fable]

I would also like a custom game option to disable cars

That's on my bucket list

[alpine dune]

Holy let him cook

[fathom cosmos]

should just disable cars in general.

[void fable]

I will buy a 2nd supporter pack if they added that

If I wanted to drive, I would go outside. But clearly, I aint doin that

[fathom cosmos]

cars were fun for a day or two but now its just kinda lame lol

[void fable]

The new players like em so, it's whatever

[fathom cosmos]

man i play unranked solo and the players i get never even use them lol.

[minor silo]

cars should take damage when you crash into terrain

[fathom cosmos]

even the enemies i see they are rarely on a car. its all the vets.

[void fable]

idk I asked a bunch of new players if they like em, they said yes mostly

[minor silo]

when going full speed and you crash it should insta explode killing the driver, all passengers and everyone in range

[fathom cosmos]

well too bad lol

[thin basin]

Drive into spike walls. It hurts

Gas should just be linked to car hp

[void fable]

there should be a 50/50 chance when you get in a car that it explodes and sends you straight to deathbox instantly to deter usage

[fathom cosmos]

50/50 chance u get in car and a wukong dunks u randomly

thoughts?

[minor silo]

they should add alcohol in the vive brew so I can drink and drive

[void fable]

do not let him cook

[cosmic yew]

my fix for cars would just be, if u get knocked out of one ur glider-fuel gets set to 100%

so ur spikeable instantly

[minor silo]

i got pingeth

[cosmic yew]

puts much more risk to chasing people endlessly

[minor silo]

but pingeth go deleteth

[sterile bone]

They honestly gotta balance around higher elos more. Cus it feels like they just don't not.
Grapple may not be an issue until high elo, but is a huge issue at hogh elo. Just to let low elo players utilize something it shouldn't be ignored how stupid said item is in high elos. And rn it feels like it is ignored, not saying it is it just feels like it is.

[silk rover]

cars dont need a nerf they just need to become a storm shift

legit

fixes the problem entirely

nothing to do with them deserves to be in the main game

[sterile bone]

Gotta change the map for that... would be a great change 😀

[fathom cosmos]

NICE

[radiant saddle]

yw. i'm here for u

i wouldnt argue with you though because i'm in support of you having your bullshit too

[spice chasm]

or have them in normals and not ranked

[silk rover]

YEA

[sterile bone]

I like the stormshift idea better. Locking smth like that into unranked feels weird and unnecessary to me.

[sharp torrent]

I spawn a little late, maybe i'm gonna repeat someone but, a potential way to fix the frustration is to reduce the rotation on RMB, less tracking or flicking and give the possibility to react if he's not well aligned, rewarding because it become harder to hit the telescopic dunk

[wet flower]

i mean whats gonna happen is the new players are gonna eventually get into high elo lobbies and get absolutely fucked and then begin asking why the op stuff is a thing and all the people who have been High elo are gonna say because the devs dont listen.

If theyre still around* since a lot of players are leaving

[sharp torrent]

And maybe also the indicator to be visible if wukong come from behind a wall

[sterile bone]

Feels like that is already happening honestly.

[spice chasm]

thing is

they will never remove them entirely after putting them in

(which making them a stormshift will do)

[sterile bone]

If grapple is not nerfed by the time the non veteran players start to get better it will genuinely ruin the game. A very strong mobility tool is also literally the strongest atack tool in the game at the same time. Why? That doesn't make sense. To have both be the same item.

Like idk a single character who doesn't love grapple a lot. It even allows hudson to confirm his wire ckmbo more whole giving him mobility for no reason. What is the trade off? Nothing, cus there just isn't one.

You can look at the stats but as I think adamarc said they will never show the full picture and tc needs to understand that more. In ny eyes they just don't rn.

[sterile bone]

You got a point... maybe just don't have the cars do dmg, that alone would help so much.

[spice chasm]

And make it easier to push people off the cars

[sterile bone]

Or just easier to destroy them

[kind edge]

I think I have 2 problems with the sentiment

by the time non veteran players start to get better at it
Firstly, you don't need to be a veteran player to get grappled twice for a 1s root / have someone literally dash with 2 charges every 2 seconds, and be like "damn this kinda is better than any option I could possibly have" - especially since a newer player can't even unlock this item / anything comparably strong
Secondly, while I am just an old player who has only experienced my own new experience over a year ago, and seen different friends pick up the game at different times, I am reasonably confident that a large amount of "new players are bad" is not really "new players have no idea that 3* grapple is really good and oppressive / can't use it well" - frankly how you abuse this is incredibly obvious. New players are often "not better yet" just because they've overwhelmed with information, and are fighting often in a solo queue environment to try and deal with their 2 allies griefing them (while they themselves also grief their team) - Its pretty obscure to understand what you're meant to do to win, what your role to be effective in a team is, and what winning actions and effects look like, which makes it hard to become good / learn the right things.

New players are not some kinda mentally disabled or handicapped people they just haven't had much experience in the game, haven't spent long enough to get over a lot of the obscurity in the game, and haven't learnt all the ways you can get a lead, or what all the characters and items do yet, haven't gotten familiar with wasd / aiming mechanics yet, etc.
I guarantee though if you gave a new player a 3* grabby the squid, it would take them like less than a minute to put 2 and 2 together and be able to abuse how broken this is

[tawdry lion]

Ding ding ding. Normal should be the fuck around fun queue unbalanced asf

[sterile bone]

I'm not really saying new players are bad it's more so based on a statement he made earlier about grapple having lower win rate than iso. Based on that it seems like the newer players wouldn't be utilizing it much

[sterile bone]

It probably would, it reqlly is simple. But most probably won't even touch it even if they do have it.

[kind edge]

Yea I get that
I just wanna counter the narrative that is often assumed I think both by TC and the community, which is the easiest understanding that new players have different results because bad at game
But "bad at game" and "inexperienced at game" are honestly two completely different things that actually have two completely different outcomes
If you try to fix issues e.g. related to retaining and capturing new players by targeting things about people who are bad at the game, you are targeting the wrong demographic, and I think the differences here become quite problematic

[forest kestrel]

maybe if RATs as the 1st best team in Europe offer them they might agree

[sterile bone]

Tbf it is easy to think they are bad when you see all the shrike is op post and how well her stats are, and it just seems like that is cus you're bad at the game. But when I think about it it like you said, they are simply inexperienced. I feel like grapple will forever be ignored by lower elos just cus running it woukd seem pointless to most of them.

[cosmic yew]

they might!

[sterile bone]

This is more so related to the original topic.

Wukong is a massive issue. For a character to even be considered being banned in scrims is pretty crazy. Even ob hudsin wasn't actively having convos about banning him afaik. Both na and eu are mentioning banning him and it's insane. Banning a character in competitive is hard to do in really any game.
I'm more so just surprised people are actually trying to get him banned.

wukong is a problem he needs to get dealt with soon. Please and thank you.

[chilly parrot]

A lot of the 1.0 changes moved the game further in that direction, but once everyone has 3* armory it should be closer to the older ttk tuning

[chilly parrot]

Could be done in theory. I'm only in here on the weekend on my own time. Other devs rest on the weekend, some are actively just working on the game over the weekend. It all takes time. Because my contribution to the game is indirect, I value my time differently. I won't be fixing the bugs that you ask about, but I will make sure people know about them so they can fix them. Thus time spent here is more valuable than it is for other devs

[rigid sigil]

I've definitely notice the ttk deteriorate as people hit t3 items.

It started slow and I REALLY enjoyed how it felt, it made the fights feel scrappier and more turnable. Once t3's started getting unlocked en masse (thanks unranked farmers) It started to feel more lile OB where one wrong move or a surprise gank made you get instantly blown up with very little recourse.

[chilly parrot]

I think we agree in general, but maybe not on the exact inflection point for when you make the call to change something

[sudden frost]

https://www.twitch.tv/ryanlemur/clip/IncredulousDrabWaspAMPEnergyCherry-NYjmFQa8EozVlQi_

[halcyon hornet]

He shouldve bought stasis

[keen ferry]

yeah it doesn't have to be you specifically, I just mean in general having a readable thread for people with a lot of hours in the game + experience to bounce things off of the devs with low turnaround would be nice

[jade lagoon]

are you the only person who directs our discord comms/reports? (not for singling out practices, but just to understand) no one that plays this games... that loves this game, wants to see it fail. is there a way we can help more?

[proper umbra]

Sorry I was reading up in regards to the testing of the game and new characters

Could you possibly make a test server for new hunters or bug changes before they go to live

So we could avoid things on release of hunters?

Maybe make a role to ping when the server would be live so there are queues for it with no mmr so we can hop in test and give feedback

[wet flower]

Yeah this should be a thing considering Tetra dropped with a gamebreaking bug that made her take 0 damage if her shield was up from rmb max and that is such a basic interaction i think its crazy this got through

[loud wedge]

If the readability of the hitbox was increased and you had more warning and more time to react, but nothing else was changed about the ability...would it be fair?

Because I feel like wukong having the ability to do this is ok, but there needs to be time to react and dodge as well.

[wet flower]

Im also confused on balance stuff like the pre buffing of shiv into 1.0 when characters like Saros have been bad for their entire existence but never get compensation buffs. Saros has only been nerfed really and thats insane tome.

[sudden frost]

yeah maybe add a sound cue or something and make him show in the map when he's on top of the pole

[river otter]

im confused on the non root thing bc you can already grapple to ur teammates and it doesnt seem that buggy or oppressive

[lime fjord]

yeah fully agree. Felt weird that recent patch was so small while there are at least 4-5 hunters that feel incredibly bad to play rn. I really expected on first patch we will come in with a swing and keep things from getting stale, as the excuse in the past was we dont do balancing because beta. Now that the game is live and we got our first balance patch it was honestly a complete joke. Eva got buffs but her buffs kinda felt like a joke a completely irrelevant and there are characters like hudson/joule/saros that feel absolutely awful to play right now, are barely picked and are not winning many games based on the publicly available data

just give those a big swing and give people a reason to try those new hunters and make them feel good/enjoyable to play

[keen ferry]

I mean it's not necessarily demanding bugs get fixed instantly, it's about the communication so we know what devs are intending with certain power levels of items or characters, and offering feedback or input on what has the most potential to be abuseable.

[wet flower]

yeah I feel bad for anyone who has a ton of game time on saros considering hes basically useless in ranked, absolutely forgotten about balance wise, and still bugged to the point where if you wanna force playing him knowing hes bad youll lose out on kills because his abilities straight up dont work and hasnt since he came out. And it is infuriating to think about ngl.

ive been dealing with this since i started playing him but somehow wukong makes me more mad tho

[rigid sigil]

There is a sound cue currently it's just super easily drowned out by everything else happening around

[chilly parrot]

I have a team of QA people (together we are 10 people!) that actively monitor the #1157928025040633868 thread, there are many others who are looking around in general, but that's where I can say confidently everything is seen (please don't abuse this fact and just put feedback there because we're gonna skip over it)

[chilly parrot]

I think this would be great if we needed more information, but what we need, in general, is more time. Y'all are providing tons of useful information that we are digesting all the time - if you take note of balance changes and hotfixes, they are heavily focused on higher-tier play because we ARE listening to what people are talking about. The "starred for TC" tool in the discord is a super handy tool for us to see what a lot of the community are passionate about so we can take note.

We would all love to hang out and chat and collect feedback like that, but we have much more known work that we want to do to make the game better than we have time.

I think another thing worth saying to the general room is that, even if we don't immediately change something, it doesn't mean that the feedback is ignored. Some solutions take longer to craft than others, and we may not always agree that something needs to be solved.

At a higher level we're trying to post broader community updates and information in the Steam updates, because that reaches the largest % of the audience AND we have it all localized. In the discord it's just English speaking conversations for the most part so a huge part of the community isn't even represented here 🙁

[sudden frost]

oh i thought the sound cue was only for yourself LOL 💀

[loud wedge]

Thanks for the info, it's cool to get a peek under the hood.

[fleet sundial]

Yo @chilly parrot you’re the fucking GOAT, dude. I’ve caught up on two weeks of this thread and I cannot tell you how wonderfully refreshing it is to see what you are doing.

Hope you’re keeping yourself well and rested, hope your kid had a great birthday, and miss you

[loud wedge]

@chilly parrot it means SO much to see devs deep in the trenches talking about issues and trying to make the game better everyday.

[chilly parrot]

RELIQ! I miss the co-casting days

[final ravine]

@chilly parrot can we get an idea on the highest skill levels amongst the QA / dev team? I’ve been reading this thread and I appreciate you responding despite people being rude, but I think a core missing component in TC’s philosophy towards both game and system design is to overemphasize what is theorized to retain newer players vs rapidly testing what high elo players have been asking for.

To give you an idea of current high elo landscape, both EU and NA have been struggling to fill scrims for the first time ever, largely due to the combination of heavy Abyss in new map + Wukong being oppressive. NA has started banning Wukong straight up to get people interested in scrims again.

When talking to another dev they mentioned that “high elo players are already retained - we need to focus on getting more new players,” which makes sense, but seems to forget that these high elo players are also the ones making YouTube guides and general content that everyone else consumes. Many of them are quitting - which leads me to believe that the best way to stifle losses is to start attempting rapid fixes that high elo people are consistently clamouring for.

These include but are not limited to:

1. more landmass / tightening the map for less abyss

2. Hard nerfs to wu and shiv

3. Skyshark nerfs.

4. Gold gated tiers for relics

5. Buffing basecamps by allowing relic purchases there.

Etc.

I can go on but the main point is that TC has already lost many vets and continues to lose more - why not try to rectify these issues in high elo, especially when low elo will inevitably catch up to these mechanics in a few weeks / months anyways?

[chilly parrot]

for the QA team specifically I'd say we have.... 1 who I'd consider quite high elo, 3-4 more who are high elo but not Scrim-ELO (we have no one who is Scrim-ELO)

I don't think any of the feedback is unreasonable or unwarranted - it hasn't even been 3 weeks since launch. Most games are not launching with an instantly-established pro-type scene. I've said this a few times, but I'll say it again - when you make changes that are targeted at improving the game for the top 1%, you need to have careful target selection. You can't just yolo changes in as fast as possible because:
A. You might not fix the underlying issue if you don't understand it well enough
B. It takes time to make any change, so if your change doesn't help, then you gotta make another and another and another
C. You risk splash damage to people across the rest of the game if you make an overly broad change.

Taking Wu as an example, he's already gotten several nerfs since release that are explicitly high-ELO targeted:
-Turnspeed on RMB
-Reduced damage per-overlapping RMB hit to avoid one shots
-LMB-Bhopping nerf

I like these nerfs because they specifically affect things that top players are abusing about the hunter without necessarily having a big impact on the average player. Changes like those take a little more time to test out internally and evaluate to make sure they are good. Straight up numbers changes are easier and quicker, but are a very blunt and broad tool

[final ravine]

I agree the nerfs have been really good fwiw, though I think more need to come - in Wukongs case it’s his shield strength and the fact he becomes immune to damage once he get enough elevation

My main concern is the fact that scrim players are losing interest, when many had planned to get more involved with YT videos etc at 1.0. Same thing with Shiv, who remains oppressive at higher elos

[loud wedge]

Ham I know you are focused primarily on scrims and that is your main concern, but I think koala is saying that it's their job to balance both for scrims and for bronze...which is difficult, and may not move as quickly as you would prefer. They don't want to gut wukong & shiv for scrims and effectively banish them from all other elo's in an instant.

It's better to do nerfs slowly and one at a time

[grizzled mulch]

Rails arents abyss, but when dunked on rails, I get slammed into abyss- Is this intentional?
Shiv is still too fast and her autos impossible to juke.
Wukong has too long range on his dunk- That you can get free poke and engage potential without much in the terms of skill.
Have you looked at Asia high elo lobbies to see how abusive Brall, shiv, Tetra and Wukong are?

[final ravine]

Another thing I’d love to see is a test environment for scrim level players, since they can call out things like Wukong B-hopping, or how strong Gen elixirs is as a perk, or a variety of tech that lower elo devs might not notice in time

[final ravine]

I understand, the issue is high elo is quickly falling apart for a combination of:

1. ranked restrictions and how they’re set up

2. The map / abyss (largely a high elo concern from what I’ve seen)

3. Shiv / Wu balance

These can all be fixed, at least to a degree, fairly quickly, and I believe they can be done in ways that don’t hurt low elo as a consequence

And if high elo does fall apart, you lose all the main content creators, you lose the validity of the ranked ladder, and you get vets seeping negativity into the fanbase (seen thru both discord and Reddit)

Therefore I believe fixing some of these issues is indirectly crucial for low elo / general player base as well

[keen ferry]

u r reiterating things already mentioned

[final ravine]

I just want to be clear here too -

I’m not pushing for speed out of personal impatience, I think the high elo scene is in pretty dire straits atm and have seen many people quit already. I think losing high elo will lose everyone else, and they’ve frankly run out of patience (at least without the guarantee of certain changes + bandaid solutions like allowing legends to duo no fill).

You also need to consider the trickle down effect this has on everyone else - high elo players are either trioing on smurfs or playing unranked to farm prisma. Very few people are actually solo queing at legend

[grizzled mulch]

Good

They need to understand how bad it is

[final ravine]

They do, if anything you should talk about the effects it has rather than just stating it outright

That’s why I’m talking about these high elo players quitting

Which IMO needs to be handled

[loud wedge]

I understand and I partially agree. Again though, as he mentioned it's only been three weeks since 1.0. They have nerfed both wu and shiv in several ways already. I would bet that they have another decent sized patch coming this week or next. They are moving on things And making changes, I just think that they have to VERY CAREFULLY consider the impact of those changes.

[final ravine]

Wu nerf took him from Z to S+, Shiv bug fix (shift auto counting as ability) came with a new malice bug nerf and with a buff to compensate and she’s just as strong.

I actually disagree about the caution piece and the patience piece - vets have played daily for 6 months and overall played for 2+ years, and very few people were even aware of the changes coming in 1.0… so you can’t except people to stay around and be patient without SOMETHING to give them copium

[grizzled mulch]

I just want squid lvl 3 so I can play void at a competitive level again. Impossible to run from a wukong as void now, he can get over obstacles that only void could before, same with Tetra- and they both have dashes and movement speed lmbs- so I just get chased down- Meta in asia is very simple, pick Wu, Shiv and Tetra, then focus 1 hunter on the enemy team at a time, without much counterplay to it. They just run you down.

[final ravine]

I would much rather they immediately allow legends to duo and incentive solo q in ranked and see what happens vs try to test what would happen, plus nerf wukong shield (which is blatantly op) and again - see what happens.

If wukong sucks in low elo as a result, that’s fine - at least you saved the high elo playerbase and you continue to get content out from creators who are otherwise quitting

[grizzled mulch]

Yea, a solo q that is purely solo q would be winner

[wet flower]

The shiv nerfs are inconsequential, they nerfed her damage slightly but the issue was never the damage and that makes a lot of high elo players feel as if they don't understand what makes her strong

[final ravine]

They can’t do this but they can drastically reduce ante and increase prisma gains to incentivize it

[wet flower]

Also the proposed wukong nerfs wouldn't affect low elo if they aren't even doing the off screen dunks. I'm completely failing to see how nerfing the range that low elo players wouldn't know how to use will affect them in any way

[final ravine]

Also shield is literally impossible to destroy, which is obviously not intended or they’d just make it straight up invulnerable

Regardless of elo

[wet flower]

^ this

Wukong is unironically one of the worst designed characters I've ever seen be put into a game. He breaks what players are taught and doesn't add anything cool. It's just frustrating to play against.

[final ravine]

The main point is there are very obvious (at least to high elo) suggestions which can be logically reasoned not to affect low elo adversely - and low elo in such a new game is going to improve rapidly since they’re literally all new to the game

And they will complain about the same stuff once they understand it

That’s why I think it’s crucial to have scrim level players on the dev team + apply this feedback more rapidly - vs saying that they hear us and will test stuff out internally

[wet flower]

Exactly, when they complain and ask players who have been playing about it, these players are gonna say "we told the devs this 100s of times but they never fixed it"

[final ravine]

Which is happening right now

[wet flower]

Literally

It reminds me of Hudson / Brall back in open beta

[loud wedge]

What is a reasonable timeline for fixes in your opinion? Because again, there have been multiple nerfs, hotfixes, and patches every week since launch.

From a game dev perspective it's almost always better to tap balance issues lightly until they are correct rather than smite them with the hammer

They are probably going to tap them again this week.

[silk rover]

Yea the talk of wukong here is giving me PTSD when there was a patch that said brall is weak at all MMRs despite being arguably the strongest hero in the history of the game

[final ravine]

They dont have the luxury of time

Like I said, high elo is already quitting en masse

[silk rover]

Since he is very hard to pilot it gets overlooked and stats are very misleading

[final ravine]

If vets are gone the game is cooked

[silk rover]

Biggest reason vets quit playing ranked is because of restrictions

[loud wedge]

Respectfully, do you have a source for this? Do you have a direct line to high elo players?

[silk rover]

Scrims is a different story

[silk rover]

Yea I mean both me and ham are very involved in EU and NA scrim/high elo scene

[loud wedge]

Good to know.

[final ravine]

What’s happening is that people hit legend then either quit / play scrims only (which rarely happen nowadays due to lack of interest, despite happening every day since November), or play unranked as 3, or go on smurfs

Only a few people like hight are grinding solo q, and even hight is / was farming noobs in unranked for prisma as a trio

[grizzled mulch]

Same here in Asia, you see Lekey grinding, but most of the rest who hit legend have stopped or I see only scrim

[wet flower]

Some of these are hotfix worthy, I thought they acted fast with the original shiv nerfs and were planning to further nerf in 1.1. When people die to something they think is bs and it happens a lot they will quit the game.

[grizzled mulch]

Source: they are on my friends list in game

[final ravine]

Like it’s kind of insane I’ve never broken a wukong shield

I’ve only dunked them out of it when I’m lucky to have elevation and be fast enough

There’s no way that’s not hotfix worthy

And shiv is just as broken as on release

[wet flower]

These a really good clip of a top player getting dunked by wukong into chain ccd into dunked to death and there is literally no counter play and his reaction is a crash out but knowing the guy I've never heard him like that before ever and we played league of legends together

[final ravine]

Blackrog or RTK?

[wet flower]

Blackrog my swedish bestie

[final ravine]

I heard he’s chill

If he crashes out everyone crashes out lowkey

[wet flower]

Yeah the clip I've never heard him so mad it made really sad ngl

[chilly parrot]

Speaking further to the idea here:

I think a core missing component in TC’s philosophy towards both game and system design is to overemphasize what is theorized to retain newer players vs rapidly testing what high elo players have been asking for.

Let's take a look at the balance changes made so far since launch:
First screenshot is 1.00 hotfix nerfs - 100% of these nerfs are high-elo oriented.
Second screenshot is 1.01 release notes - a more "robust" shiv nerf than the hotfix one that we applied (arguably power neutral or up, depending on how much you value her quickflip movespeed. A buff to Eva. Neither of these cater to "new players".
Third screenshot 1.01 as well - Couple of minor-ish changes, but the High-Tops change is explicitly high-ELO targeted.

This isn't even including the changes to Prisma farming that were also high-ELO targeted (while also trying to help out the average player too).

So I'd say the majority of the balance changes we've made so far are explicitly more catered towards high-ELO feedback specifically.

I think it's fair to say that high elo players have MORE things that they want, and that they are not getting, but I think it's patently false that we are overemphasizing new player feedback vs. high elo player feedback.

[chilly parrot]

If the Rail is over abyss, then yes, this is intentional (maybe unintuitive )
Feedback about shiv is heard, Chef

I haven't personally looked at high elo Asia lobbies, but Asia is included in our data

[final ravine]

I don’t think anyone is saying that TC hasn’t made an effort to listen - and I can also respect the effort from the devs side but the problem is that:

1. Wu / Shiv are still in desperate need of hotfix nerfs (according quite literally everyone in high elo, including their mains),

2. Ranked restrictions haven’t been addressed publically yet and are causing most of the high elo players to quit.

3. Map changes have also not really been addressed (afaik) and are also a huge problem

Again - not to say TC hasn’t made efforts - they clearly have. But if you ask anyone in OOTech, you’ll hear consistently that there are core issues lingering that make the game unplayable at a high level - hence no scrim sign ups for the first time ever

[wet flower]

I think the idea behind the nerfs was to nerf high elo shiv the but the execution was a failure. The damage wasn't the issue in high elo. The issue is the range and free dashes. Before shiv had to play close to enemies to do damage so she had to use her free dashes from ult to get on you, now she just spaced you with range long claws and runs you down. Before her out of nowhere buffs for 1.0 she was absolutely fine. Now even with the nerfs she is still far too strong

[final ravine]

Also the projectile speed increase that came in 1.0 and should probably be reverted

[loud wedge]

I'll sign up for scrims 💪🏼 I can handle the monkey

[silk rover]

I would say most of my perception is not so much that it caters to new players as much as the changes are aimed at either people playing solo, or lesser skilled players being able to kill higher skilled players by some form of cheese

[final ravine]

Good we need more players there lmao I miss being able to play in competitive lobbies

[wet flower]

I think all the buffs for 1.0 should be reverted ngl, I'm genuinely so surprised of all the characters buffed for 1.0 it was shiv when Saros joule and Eva are in their current states

[final ravine]

Though wukong is probably being banned for the foreseeable future to get people to play again

[silk rover]

And the main issue with making the game catered to solos is that it makes teamplay feel significantly worse which sucks because that's probably supervives biggest strength to me is the ability to use teamplay to win

[chilly parrot]

She was also doing pretty well at lower ELO so a nerf to her damage felt like the right place to start - if there are still issues in high ELO (or if she's still strong in lower ELO), then more nerfs can come

[chilly parrot]

I don’t think anyone is saying that TC hasn’t made an effort to listen
I think that's exactly what you were saying in the comment that I quoted

[final ravine]

I think low elo should be viewed as volatile atm. They’re all still learning the game. Higher elo is a better representation of balance just due to the novelty and fast improvements a majority of low elo players will experience

[loud wedge]

Yeah I'm just playing 🙂 I think you make a lot of good points, and I also think TC cares and will make the right decisions.

The devs are being pulled in so many directions right now. High elo, low elo, the armory...the feedback is all over the place for them.

Your insight into high elo problems is super valuable. I just am trying to give the devs time to work their magic, and I just want to encourage others to do so as well.

I love the game and I want it to to great ❤️

[chilly parrot]

do you perceive the 1.00 hotfix balance changes as aimed at solos or lesser skilled players?

my feeling is the 1.00 hotfix changes were almost all straight up high-elo feedback related changes, so if that's not true then I think I am confused

[final ravine]

I said TC overemphasizes retaining new players over high elo feedback, not that they don’t listen.

Not to be pedantic, but there is a difference. TC clearly listens to high elo, but the execution has been faltering on the meta side, and there hasn’t been any comment (afaik) on the other two things I mentioned: rank restrictions and map changes

[chilly parrot]

when I say "lower" ELO here I'm referring to 50th-95th percentile

[final ravine]

Don’t you think that percentile range will experience more rapid improvements compared to high elo, since a majority of them are new?

[silk rover]

No I wasnt talking specifically about the hotfixed or even 1.0

[grizzled mulch]

Suggestion. make stasis shard float the first 0.2 seconds of casting if over abyss, would make item much better for high elo too

[final ravine]

Thus making their experience more volatile?

[silk rover]

Most of my issues with the game have nothing to do with 1.0 and much more to do with previous patches before 1.0 that still cause lingering issues

[final ravine]

Yeah same, I think everyone here is talking in good faith

[silk rover]

I think 1.0 is a massive step up from before but still has many issues that haven't been solved over the last 4 to 5 months or so

[chilly parrot]

no - high ELO players figure out new metas faster than low/mid ELO players, so the game is much more "steady" in the average case. Shrike performs extremely well in low/mid-ELO matches. If those players were experiencing rapid improvements, then her winrate would tank after the 10th percentile

[final ravine]

Koalifier is taking time on a weekend late at night to give dev side feedback and we (or at least I, speaking for myself) definitely appreciate it, whether I agree with specifics or not

[chilly parrot]

ah okay got it - that's good to understand. So the direction is good but we have more work to do - on that I agree strongly

[final ravine]

Yes same

@chilly parrot if I haven’t been clear I think armory is overall a positive and the negative feedback has been from people who didn’t give it a chance. I think the core issues are really just the ones I mentioned

I even like sky sharks even if they need a nerf to durability, fuel, and function (ie making them have a CD on the boost)

[silk rover]

Yea don't get me wrong there are some things that I dont like with 1.0 but overall it's still a positive, mostly i would like some of the changes made before to be looked at and/or reworked

[chilly parrot]

yeah I think that in general my takeaway is:
-keep working on balance feedback (we are already doing this for sure, at all times)
-look at abyss density/frequency
-think about high elo restrictions

[arctic citrus]

(also please look at balancing some 2-3* items if that's not already included, thank you)

[final ravine]

The high elo ranked restrictions one I think should be done first, before more people leave the game.

Just being able to play with friends, even if we have to duo no fill, will retain so many strong players (many of which are also creators).

There are downside risks ofc, but I’m scared that slow movement on this specifically will lose a lot of vets.

Second would be wukong rmb nerf and range nerf + shiv nerf.

If those two happen and a change to the map is promised in the near future, high elo will be extremely happy

[chilly parrot]

we're certainly looking at Armory item balance. I think we need to be very deliberate about it, because we need to respect people who have been grinding for specific items. If they spent a huge amount of time and effort and then we just gut their item, only to buff it later or something.... that would suck. I think the goal is to identify what a healthy state is for armory items and guide towards that with as few changes as possible. Many, many players still aren't even close to 3* items so I think these change will need to move more slowly in general than Hunter changes

[final ravine]

Armory stuff isn’t as big a deal atm because only high elo people deal with it and they would be happy with the aforementioned changes I brought up

But yes diadam, songbow, infusor, gen elixir and a few other tier 3s are giga overtuned and will need nerfs in the near future

[arctic citrus]

I think if you frontloaded relics so that the 'cool' or 'gimmicky' part of the item was part of the 1* version then kept upgrades relatively minor it would really ease people's frustrations. Looking at say, resonant idol or ultimate diadem 1 vs 3 is a huge jump in strength.

[final ravine]

I agree with you but they clearly did that for the payoff of hitting t3

[arctic citrus]

but yeah some items make certain matchups fully unwinnable depending on who you play

[final ravine]

So imo it’s fine for now

Like I hate vsing crysta t3 diadem every game

But if I got to play with my duo on my main, and shiv and wu weren’t so oppressive, I’d be okay with waiting for that nerf

[river otter]

are you referring to the ranking system as in 50th-95th percentile because i have a bronze 1 account (now silver) and it was top 50ish%

[arctic citrus]

i know but i feel like it isn't worth splitting the community over "this guy got X item 3 starred meanwhile i dont have any good upgraded relics"

[final ravine]

That’s a good question, I wonder if it might be better to separate by time played instead

At least at this point + with new playerbase

[river otter]

not that either

[candid onyx]

it should just not count inactive accounts

[river otter]

the percentile is including players who dont play ranked and are inactive

[candid onyx]

5 ranked games played in a season or soemthing to count

[river otter]

^

[final ravine]

It def is an issue I was just bringing it up cuz low elos don’t have t3 and won’t for a while

[final ravine]

Ya like placement games

Should def do this

[river otter]

play time means nothing i have a friend who quit awhile ago but had like 100 hours MAX and i consider him a near legend player

[final ravine]

Unless he’s referring to hidden mmr and not rank

[arctic citrus]

agree. I'm nearly up to masters again after losing hundreds of rp queuing with friends and i still have no 3* relics.

[candid onyx]

not even

jsut to count for pracintile

[final ravine]

I’m 98% upgraded lol

Just missing two t3 legendaries

[arctic citrus]

i have like, 5 3* grips, that's it

[final ravine]

Noob

Jk

[arctic citrus]

and i dont even use 2 of them

soul bonds 💀

fr though i really don't like the fact that i'm very comfortable taking most fights but if i see shiv with vive infuser 3 and sunweaver my first thought is 'run away'. Like ??? I don't ever think I win that, dude heals faster than i deal damage while also outdpsing me

[keen ferry]

it is possible its just basically inaccessible against a wukong with good timing

[keen ferry]

there r 2 discords with most of the legend players in them for each region

[balmy kiln]

my +1 is I was hoping to get more into SV on 1.0 but not only is my character severely underperforming but we've heard nothing from the dev team wrt her so it's kinda demoralizing and makes me apathetic about playing her / the game

[candid onyx]

hi rank 4 NA this is true

[candid onyx]

reworking coming soon :0

[cosmic yew]

Working on writing up a gigantic post listing all problematic mechanics and issues players have with relic / hunter balance + bugs, if anyone wants to contribute dm me!

[keen ferry]

wasn't it said to be within a month

or was that just the 3 new hunters

[final ravine]

I swear you were top 10 globally

Without an armory

[final ravine]

No safelocked said post 1.0

Don’t think she gave a timeline

[keen ferry]

gg

[candid onyx]

yea but

im 11th now

[minor silo]

Remove Brall lmb knock back

[cosmic yew]

Valid call, exactly the type of feedback im looking to list

[balmy kiln]

joule has what like bottom 3 winrate AND high elo says she's bad but she just isn't getting touched until her rework

fml

meanwhile shiv still Thanos bc max range autos

[minor silo]

Afaik Brall mains don't like it, anyone playing vs Brall doesn't like it

[balmy kiln]

the nerfs even though were high elo focused just missed the mark man

you don't even see joule mains much because we've all quit or swapped hunters

[minor silo]

I can send you a word document with all the changes and the reasons I'd want these changes

[balmy kiln]

im pretty bitter about this ngl

[vivid pine]

Side note as a new player to supervive, I started playing because I saw clips of Afro and Madly on Joule, so I wanted to pick her up but it’s been rough because of how nerfed she has been

[balmy kiln]

it feels like my feedback with 1000 hours on her is not taken very seriously and now she's just sitting in a rut and thats how it'll be for the next 2 months

• every other joule main in #joule

it is what it is.

[cosmic yew]

Jin x Joule x Hudson mains all suffering for over 6 months now

i fear Eva has joined the roster aswell

[river otter]

hi rank 1 NA zeph here yes

[final ravine]

There are joule mains still?

The undocumented lmb slow is imo one of the bigger issues with her

She definitely could use some love just to feel viable

Even if she’s getting reworked

[river otter]

buff joule pls i wanna play with afwo again i miss her

[hard heron]

Is one day ranked restriction Will be remove or at least the soloQ become duoQ or this is not plan at all ?

[wet flower]

Would love to see this, immediate resurgence of high elo players if it happens. If not then the EU scrims server will continue to be filled with people in VCs playing mainly other games bc they can't play SV with friends

[wet flower]

Like how were gonna be playing peak tomorrow >:)

[chilly parrot]

referring to ELO, which is shorthand for your skillrating, which is not the same as rank. Your rank and you skill rating will converge as you play more games, but you can have a high skill rating and a low rank until you've played enough ranked games for them to meet up

[chilly parrot]

not really, because it's based on actual match data so you have to play to be represented in the data

[round night]

Please no?! I don't wanna grief other players ranked games when trying new hunters or just experimenting with builds?

[clever dust]

Given the player numbers and the response from the playerbase that seems to contradict with your data: Isnt there a blindspot in your data? Or the way you interpret that data deviates from how actual players experience it?

Not saying "Youre wrong, im right!" but disregarding the input of high elo players to favor "data" that we dont have access to does gives the impression of "You are wrong, the data is right!"

[river otter]

#1397859784811872296 message this is what i was referring to sorry my wording was poor

[regal pilot]

Hi Mr Koalifier did you devs forget to update/fix saros to the 1.0?

He still has almost all the bugs since his release and his kit it's not interacting correctly with some items

[magic canyon]

Grabby the Squid.

[jade lagoon]

noted ty, i mainly reported on arena issues in arena chat and celeste issues in celeste chat. ill make bug (!!!, not feedback) reports in there, ty.

[stable berry]

How exactly can someone grind for a specific item when the armory system is purely based on RNG?

[tawdry lion]

Here's a favorite of mine

https://youtu.be/eDr6_cMtfdA

[keen star]

Season 2 😇

[stable berry]

Well, then using that as an argument as to why items are not being balanced NOW (pre whenever we can choose what we grind for) is irrelevant

[keen star]

I think he likes wukong

no hate i just thought seeing these two together was funny 😭

[lofty maple]

Do what you want, leave trios alone. It was the best change apart from new glider mechanics.

[elfin orbit]

To me squads or trios both could do well if the hunters and the game would be changed to fit it.
You feel me?

[cosmic yew]

From a competitive standpoint squads was miles better

but for the games longterm health, trios is beneficial

i heavily miss duo-restrictions in squads

compared to the now solo

im still sad that we got told the game will be rebalanced around trios, yet almost nothing changed, at minimum the heal on knock could be toned down...

[distant idol]

I think in the current gaming culture 3 weeks is actually a very long time for a game that is trying to retain a new player base. I mean this with no exaggeration: shiv should've been hot fixed on day 2. It was and is extremely obvious that she didn't need any of the buffs she received and she is currently still way too strong because the major contributors to her strength are untouched.

I love this game, I have over two thousand hours, but sometimes it truly feels like the devs don't play it (and from the sounds of it they potentially only play inhouses with each other). It doesn't take many games or many hours to see how oppressive shiv is, or how obnoxious wu is to fight. The dependence on data is clouding decision making when there are very obvious issues that could be identified with less than 10 hours of play time

[cosmic yew]

Whos NAs best wukong player?

thoughts on getting that person into 1 developer inhouse

i think their minds will be changed within 2 games

doesnt even have to be the best wukong just any average one will do

i wish i had a estimate of what the gameplay looks like in those lobbies, i would assume it plays out the same way the sponsored twitch streamers games play out

[final ravine]

They should incorporate high elo into play testing but doing that wouldn’t change their minds imo since they tend to focus on numbers based on comments I’ve read

Wukong doesn’t perform well in lower elos

I’ve said this before but I think this is a mistake in game philosophy given how new the game is to most people

[cosmic yew]

madly had the best summary

"But I think it's also a bit disrespectful to the lower skill players to assume they won't get better and the game shouldn't be balanced for when they do"

[final ravine]

Yeah I agree

[jade lagoon]

jupp

[final ravine]

Largely because they’re so new

Like they need a month and they’ll be a lot better

This isn’t like league where the low elo playerbase is hard stuck

[cosmic yew]

this game suffers allot from survivorship bias aswell

so many people just dont play anymore but still hop in discord daily to talk about the game, while not actually contributing to stats the devs see

in seupervive this is more prevalent than ever, half the server doesnt play but still holds hope that 1 good balance patch will arrive

[distant idol]

im just really concerned about the timeline for changes and fixes, i see devs talk about season 2 from time to time like its guaranteed. im not trying to be a doomer but we should really be focused on right now IMO

[cosmic yew]

i thought allot about what koalifier said about why grappling needs to be strong, then i actually looked at the other relics, there is no world where stasis shard, tree prison, hoverwings etc are picked up by casual players right?

[final ravine]

100%

[candid onyx]

kinda a good question

[final ravine]

Rapid and drastic changes need to happen well before then

[candid onyx]

stasis i could see

[arctic citrus]

Had to think about this for a sec because I havent actually seen a wukong and thought "wow this guy is good at wukong", instead my only thought is "this guy is playing wukong"

that said i havent played scrims in 1.0 yet so maybe that's the thing im missing

[cosmic yew]

HAHAHA

based take

[arctic citrus]

im being 100% fr right now

[sand folio]

have they even done a big patch or hotfix yet

hasnt 1.0 been out for like 3 weeks at this point theres no way the devs play their own game its like madly said it takes one day of playing to see some of the obnoxious and horrible shit in the game and go wow maybe it shouldnt be in the game maybe this needs a nerf or rework

[fiery shoal]

The game promised its players a strategy team fight battle royal with deep itemization and rewarding gameplay. 1.0 really failed these expectations, and added so many new problems that the most dedicated players are quitting with the hope that the game will eventually get better. Most of the things people dislike about the game have not been directly addressed. Lowkey the game dies if they dont fix the stuff by season 2

[sterile bone]

More characters feel like this than should, it makes some supposed to feel cool plays feel kinda lame cus all is going through my mind is "he's just playing [character]"

[cosmic yew]

currently writing up a bunch of changes we would like to see to relics with help of some of my EU scrims friends, if anyone else wants to contribute ideas pls dm

[sand folio]

cooldown on vive infusor heal

[cosmic yew]

got that

[arctic citrus]

not a relic but longclaw % range increase -> flat range increase

[cosmic yew]

this would be unhealthy for melee characters

[sand folio]

could do seperate stat increase for range vs melee

[arctic citrus]

hmm yeah i guess that would take more working around

[cosmic yew]

also can we talk about how OP the base damage of this item is?

like 80 base is absurd

[arctic citrus]

oh yeah 100%

real happy mine is nowhere near 2*

[cosmic yew]

lmfao

[arctic citrus]

what kind of changes did you have in mind for idol? that thing seems like a real piece of work

[acoustic grove]

remove it

simple as that

[clever dust]

Idol could get the kassadin solution. Keep cooldown low but double the mana cost of the spell with each cast, resets after 20 seconds

[cosmic yew]

this is all we noted

if anyone has better ideas pls share

[turbid copper]

this is why I'm currently developing something that would show stats for hunters in scrims over a longer period of time

since I know they have 0 data from custom games

[cosmic yew]

can confirm as ive seen this and it will be amazing

[turbid copper]

my belief is that this might actually give them at least SOME insight into what's going on

[sand folio]

what if they just reworked it to be something like old spellbinder from league

stack it up and then it gives you a big burst of cdr and movespeed or something for x amount of seconds

[cosmic yew]

just 1 more website meap, just code 1 more bot.... the devs will care bro... just 1 more....

[rigid sigil]

Just remove it imo. Amplifier had the same issues that made it either useless or busted with no inbetween.

It's too niche not to be binary like that. Either your build lives or dies by getting idol or the item is completely useless on your hunter.

I know removing it isn't realistic.

[cosmic yew]

i think the item is fine, but the perma CCs are not

from 5% -> 4% and the perma CC is no longer a thing

[rigid sigil]

Oh maybe tone down the free dashing without removing stacks. That allows some pretty toxic gameplay patterns. Maybe just make dashes remove less stacks, not 0

[arctic citrus]

prob also change 3* to not fully refund mana

[rigid sigil]

Unless I'm misunderstanding the t2 item

[cosmic yew]

dashes dont get the CDR

unless ur ONLY using them

no?

[rigid sigil]

No I meant the part where at t2 dashing won't remove stacks from your other abilities

[cosmic yew]

oh, well i think thats fine

or make it that dash only removes 1 stack

that would be a idea

[clever dust]

that would mean that you wont be able to stack the item at all, you need to dash most of the time, your other abilities have way higher cooldowns

[rigid sigil]

Yeah that's kinda what I' leaning toward. It's a tangible benefit still, but not totally free to use dash

[cosmic yew]

ill note it down, ty

[rigid sigil]

If the item has no downsides for such a strong effect, the effect needs to be toned down.

Even amplifier in OB needed to be toned down without that dash exception. The dash exception is my personal target for keeping idol in check

[clever dust]

the downside of the item is that you have only one ability you can use instead of 2

[cosmic yew]

i think if it gos from 5% -> 4% its fully fine

who is even using this item except beebo / ghost?

theres some meme builds for bishop and kingpin but thats about it no?

[clever dust]

elluna perma stun build

[cosmic yew]

true

so a 10% CDR change would fix it

cus that makes it no longer perma

[sand folio]

i saw a void run that with isochrons and they could stun before first one wore off in arena

[sterile bone]

Would be huge. I have blind faith they will nerf wu with that date :)

[clever dust]

but the item wont be used if perma stun is removed from it.
Its situational, needs to be stacked up and you can still miss the ability

[arctic citrus]

honestly, good

perma stun is awful

[clever dust]

i undesstand the frustration of it, but going "this item shouldnt exist" is abit too much

[sterile bone]

It'd be ran less but aome hunters would still like it. Which is good, that perma stun stuff is so stupid

[clever dust]

it gives a fantasy, youre building towards it and theres a tradeoff in power

[turbid copper]

Yea hopefully, also going to have relic data etc. aswell so maybe grabby nerf 🙏

[sand folio]

the fantasy of no one wanting to interact with you if they see you using it because they know if they get hit by a single ability they have to sit there perma stunned watching you kill them?

[clever dust]

you mean like the void ulti?

[sterile bone]

Finally aome balancing lol

[clever dust]

its still a teamgame, even if youre stunned once your teammates can rescue / counterplay.
e.g. for eluna you can still shoot back and use abilities

[arctic citrus]

ah yes void ult, the ability no one has any issue with whatsoever

[rigid sigil]

I think it's fair to call my take a bit much, removing an item will affect the game a non-negligible amount.

I'm mostly coming from a place of "I've seen this one before" and have very little faith that it actually will become a balanced item in any capacity.

Q max amplifier Ghost was a scourge for a few patches, but I wonder if the other bullshit builds in 1.0 evens it out

[minor silo]

@cosmic yew can you add nerfing cars to the ground in the list

or just straight up remove them

[distant idol]

"this item should not exist" is not too much if the item should not have existed in the first place

[rigid sigil]

Until cars get changed I'll promote my idea for them.

Make the boost heat them up over time and if they boost too long they blow tf up. You can tune it in a way where they can be used for short bursts of team movement but lose almost all ability to do long term chase.

I think this along with some car health nerfs could make them actually interesting pieces of macro.

Maybe also remove some of the spawns

[clever dust]

is it abit too strong? yeah
can it still be adjusted to feel nice to play AND feel fair? also yes.
deleting is just the easy way out

[rigid sigil]

Or just put very little fuel in them and put tesla charging stations around the map

LMAO

[keen ferry]

pomu or kenneth, maybe pomu

[keen ferry]

felix likes it t2, shiv with idol+vive infuser is really annoying but its a festering check

[silk rover]

Issue with resonating idol is that it's bugged right niw

Now

Once it's bug fixed

It will be super op

Since you will get 50 refund on both dash and 1 of your abilitys

And infinite mana

[amber hawk]

@chilly parrot POV

[delicate bronze]

not really

[chilly parrot]

it's perfect because in this gif I'm also the villain

fuck now I really want to rewatch this arc in naruto

[fathom cosmos]

its such a banger lol

[radiant saddle]

You aren't the villain

You're like a gym trainer

[bleak garden]

pokemon gym trainer??

[bleak garden]

what would be his trainer type

[radiant saddle]

The dudes you get to before you fight the gym leader

[bleak garden]

Wow...

Whos the leader then

[radiant saddle]

Joe Tung

[bleak garden]

Wait that's actually true

[chilly parrot]

pretty sure that guy has more hair than me

[radiant saddle]

Every good gym trainer models their personality, Pokemon, and looks after their gym leader

[tawdry lion]

#1397859784811872296 message

Does grappling at close range make it harder to dunk

Maybe you could scale root duration to how close you are when you grapple

Long range grapple lasts only long enough for you to get near your enemy

But then what I proposed for close range doesn't work

Or it does

Close range is max root duration

[spare barn]

songbow needs to be changed imo, the fact it gives you effectively 50% cdr that is not diminished by other sources of cdr is absurd, dont know exactly how to fix it (maybe something with % cooldown refund instead of flat?)

% thing has huge issues too but holy shit with the right build you can unironically have basically 2sec brall q and shift cd, wukong pole on 2s, felix q on 1s with idol etc

[sterile bone]

T3 ga also needs to be changed honestly. There is reasons why that was an exotic befire

[candid onyx]

https://medal.tv/games/supervive/clips/kSup1yrDGRPye00a4?invite=cr-MSxmYk4sMzgwMTc2NTg&v=90

since the devs sometimes look here

FIX THIS

how does this happen in ur "finished" product

[jade lagoon]

its a bug, new bug yh, put it in a bug report. demanding a fix in a discussion thread doesnt fix the bug.

[cosmic yew]

Hearthstone gives dust refund for nerfed cards, you could do the same with prisma.

On the time investment part, i also invested time into eva and now shes awful, it does suck. The same gos for the jin, joule and hudson players. Nerfing a specific relic is much less of a issue than killing a character 🤷

This logic imo can only be applied if there was real money involved, your prisma system is 90% random with the daily shops exception, and those are still random.

[final ravine]

Only issue is scrims are not happening atm

Can’t collect data if people aren’t willing to play scrims unfortunately

Otherwise it’s a good idea

[turbid copper]

Yea but I'm still doing it in-case we do somehow get enough signups + I think it's generally a sick idea lol

[final ravine]

I hope scrim players return so we can check it out, it would def help paint a high elo picture to the devs beyond ranked solo Q

[cosmic yew]

Were trying bandaid solution of hunter bans, will be interesting to see if we get signups with it in place

[final ravine]

You run EU scrims right?

NA also experimenting with this

[cosmic yew]

yup

[swift furnace]

True, like the steam next fest surge of players are at around 1k hours right now.

When these players reach 1k hours, they watch the next generation of players come in and will be talking about the game exactly like we did

[bleak garden]

What about the ones before that

[radiant saddle]

I mean to his point one of the reason I stopped playing the game in December was due to the balance thrashing and how frustrating it was to invest time into something, attention to explain what made it strong, and then have it cut off at the knees. Happens a lot. Kinda glad to hear they are taking a more conservative and thorough approach to balance

[bleak garden]

They watched 1k hours steam next fest players talk about the game exactly like they did.....

[swift furnace]

Yeah it's a cycle

[radiant saddle]

@silk rover thoughts?

[silk rover]

i think its dumb

hero bans make no sense

but if it gets people to play idc

[river otter]

It makes sense when it’s meant to target broken unfun characters like wukong

If they were more fun to play against and interactive then I agree bans don’t make any sense

[silk rover]

sure but it makes the game less compeititve

banning whats OP

[radiant saddle]

Pretty soon you'll end up like battlerite in houses

Banned rites

[silk rover]

thats demonic as fuck

tbf makes sense in that game since there is no patches coming

[tawdry lion]

that list didnt appear overnight did it

they built it as people discovered op strats

[final ravine]

This makes sense for an unsupported game left in a random state

Only way to handle balance and still make comp fun

I don’t blame them

[balmy kiln]

yeah it's pretty reasonable given their state id think

whatever gets ppl to play

like the tourneys that ban most used hunters are cool, even though they're artificial or w.e

[chilly parrot]

FWIW as we expand the # of hunters I would expect a competitive format to have some method for hunter bans, but obviously it is complicated with 12 teams

[delicate bronze]

just add voting

where every drop leader vote for hunter to be banned

[worldly yacht]

His q also prevents him from getting spiked or falling in the abyss 🤐

[delicate bronze]

hunter with most votes is getting banned and if there is a tie, game just decide by RNG

[chilly parrot]

yeah I think that's what I'd do. 12 votes, tie breaker could be a coin flip or something. That's a super simple implementation

[sterile bone]

If you guys were to actually plan to do smth like that, I feel like it'd be better to do something where everyone on the team votes then whoever was voted most in the team is casted into the overall vote between every team.
Gives everyone at least some choice rather than non deop leaders having literally no choice.

Ik this is just throwing around the idea and not super serious. Just how I'd go about bans

[kind edge]

In scrims iirc the implementation was more along the lines of most picked/top placing hunters get banned, I'm not sure this would work as well in a matchmade environment.

[chilly parrot]

Yeah, I'm saying specifically for scrims/competitive play

I doubt we would do bans for ranked match made play any time soon

[wary stirrup]

Bans in BR would never really work unless there are like 100+ hunters lol

[worldly yacht]

bans sound lame for this game and current amount of hunters ^

[loud wedge]

It's not like it's entirely a new thing. Didn't scrims experiment with bans at the end of beta? Oath and myth were getting banned. As well as carbine and bishop.

[minor silo]

In eternal return if a character gets picked by more than X teams they get banned for X games, for tournaments and stuff

no bans in regular pleb ranked

"If a character is picked by 3 or more players in a round, it gets temporarily banned for a set number of subsequent rounds. The ban duration depends on the number of initial picks: 3 picks trigger a 1-round ban, 4 picks result in a 2-round ban, and 5 or more picks lead to a 3-round ban."

dount we have enough hunters for this system so it could be reduced to most picked hunter

[cunning mauve]

spike doenst even spike???

ultrakill bhop

[minor silo]

sure hope there's an alternative way to interpret that name

okay nvm

it's messengers

am blind

[minor silo]

spikes aren't instakills. they just stun and give you downward momentum for a set amount of time. if you had enough height before the dunk you can live, which is probs what happened here with wukong climbing his pole before dying

walls and stuff can also sometimes save you

[cunning mauve]

imo, subjectively, kinda bs

Not a lot of abilities spike without hitting someone while gliding. Now imagine, (I guess you don't have to) they don't kill...

[worldly yacht]

spiking is also determined by glider capacity no?

so you can get tickled and get spiked if ur glider is over heating i thought

[rigid sigil]

Ye

[void fable]

People can also survive spiking by getting dunked and sliding off of YOU

If you're under them and dunk them, they can hit your body and live

And they can occasionally mantle after being dunked and pop back up 🙂 which I asked if it was a bug or not and got no response

Just like the glider spam bug people are doing now

which you're a fucking tool if you're using glider spam

[worldly yacht]

wdym like pod racing

what glider spam bug!? is there a secret tech I can abuse? I must know xD

[void fable]

In any other game, bug abuse would be bannable.

[worldly yacht]

not true...

[void fable]

k

[worldly yacht]

bug abuse for the sole reason of ranking up and spamming it

but if its in the game most companies wont ban you for their mistake

[void fable]

ask micahmunch, he's been running me down with it constantly, and he's top 10 NA

broken glider, flying 100 miles per how

[worldly yacht]

and i think they should fix it and not ban him

[void fable]

hour*

[worldly yacht]

not his fault hes using something in the game
doesnt matter how he found the info or means to do it either

[void fable]

So if he knows it's a bug and still abuses it, that's not on him even 10%?

[worldly yacht]

10% sure but not enough to be banned imo

but to each their own

[void fable]

So if I find a bug that insta gives me level 15 fulls items, it's fine

gotcha

[worldly yacht]

yup, should jsut be fixed asap

[void fable]

yeah that's a take for sure

[worldly yacht]

its not even close to the same as literally installing hacks

[cosmic yew]

true

ive been mad about this forever

oath players shouldve been banned back in february abusing the no CDR shieldbash thing icl

[void fable]

That was a weird situation though, because dash into shield bash was a normal combo that Oath without that bug would use anyway, so the bug would happen constantly even if people weren't being intentional with it

Although, obviously, people were abusing it

[worldly yacht]

I think if the devs specifically state its a bug and to not abuse it, its bannable
or if you abuse a game breaking bug and dont release the info its bannable

but if the devs say nothing about it, dont patch it out when its known, they might as well be asking for people to abuse it

dont think that take is that hot

[void fable]

Yeah, sure, but even if it's known, they take literally months to patch bugs

[worldly yacht]

L devs and L players for abusing it, still unfortunatly not bannable imo

its a game at the end of the day

not like anyones playing for money

[void fable]

and even if they say it's a bug, nobody stops using it and nobody gets punished lol

[cosmic yew]

90% of the community is L players unfortunately

[void fable]

And? I still want to have fun

who cares about money in a game

[worldly yacht]

well if you dont like the product or develepors' actions dont support it and maybe they'll learn

but thats also lame

[void fable]

Well, we can at least agree that they are lame

[worldly yacht]

i def understand being fed up with bugs and i wouldnt wanna play if every game someone was abusing a bug

[tawdry lion]

Someone used to abuse Celeste height glitch and place bases really high up in the sky

That person got banned I believe for bug abusing didn't they

[cosmic yew]

the good old days of grappling hook -> penguin -> basecamp

xdddd

did this a total of 1 time for fun to troll my friends in final showdown

[worldly yacht]

indefinite and IP ban? how harsh of a ban

[tawdry lion]

@unique yew how long did you get banned for?

[unique yew]

I didn’t?

[keen ferry]

scrims were based on who was most-picked, this reflected the (then) upcoming abyssal cup format

[sick juniper]

Have they annonced wukong nerfs yet !!??

[rigid sigil]

They don't typically announce patch content until a day before the patch. Patches happene evry 2 weeks on wednesdays. If something is particularly egregious hotfixes are possible but they're more limited in scope for what they can ship in a hotfix patch.

[gilded geyser]

Just had a game where a wukong lvl 15 was literally always in his rmb

Over abyss

He used rmb into rmb

No cooldown

Fair btw

And I don't mean charge into slam

I mean start the rmb, stay there, slam, then instantly rmb charge again

[turbid copper]

you can do this with a lot of hunters btw

well not the staying over abyss part

[gilded geyser]

So true!