Season Zero: Eva + Trios + Ranked Reset & Split Megathread

[vale token]

Its a competition then 👀?

[loud harbor]

Sure why not. Pretty sure I've found more bugs with Hudson than you have already.

[rare thicket]

have you guys thought about making Jins clone more about fighting rather than just an escape tool?

[rocky topaz]

got it, then will probably hold off in relation to my question the other day, on another note, do you want me to repost my stuff from the balance feedback post I made?

[grim cloak]

Read some of the notes on Discord on this. We’re watching progression rates too.

Worth seeing how retention looks over a few days for this one. But we’re reading.

[grim cloak]

If you’re referencing previous posts, think I have everything from ya, but I’ll always take a bump.

[rocky topaz]

Its the one I made today in the Creator Cord

[grim cloak]

Yes. Part of the goal with future Jin changes.

[fickle tinsel]

Very glad to hear this, it feels weird that right now it's just an escape tool and not a combat tool

I don't think I ever see Jins using it aggressively

[grim cloak]

Gotcha - yeah, you’re good. I keep up-to-date the creator cord.

[grim cloak]

Yeah, a common callout for sure.

[rocky topaz]

Sick

I used to use it agressively, when it had to walk to it's target, by faking I was the clone :P

Also punching an enemy into your clone is very fun :)

[blazing sage]

hello

[rocky topaz]

Hi OC

[rare thicket]

Yooo, im hyped

[vale token]

The community seems to nearly unanimously agree that its not a good one.
Talking with friends about the game they get a very bitter taste in their mouths. I kinda have that too currenly.
I know you guys are testing stuff but the community does get a bitter after taste from changes like this. And I feel it might damage TC's reputation (atleast among the community)
I feel a proper tutorial that doesnt restrict would be better and the current version is just inferior version of that.

[grim cloak]

JMo is literally sitting next to me as we’re talking about Jin. Hahah.

[vale token]

And I feel it might have been a mistake to ship the current version.

[rocky topaz]

Tell him, Hi, I wanna play with him more, and I NEED HIM TO REPLY TO MY DM

Bro left me on read

[blazing sage]

unlucky

[grim cloak]

I saw a misconception (understandable) that folks thought this was our onboarding push. We’re also still working on an updated tutorial and flow for 1.0.

[blazing sage]

old JMO would have replied

[rocky topaz]

Its something that could be extremely important for the Beebo video

[grim cloak]

Done. Said all of these things. Lol.

[loud harbor]

Eva's healing is too damn much. You literally need a brall or felix in arena solely to deal with her. Or you are forced to focused her if your team doesn't have a bunch of anti heal. Cus otherwise she can literally heak someone from almost dead to full in like a second.

This is more healing than zeph before his healing nerfs. Like how tf is that ok?

[rocky topaz]

He 's changed

[blazing sage]

disagree

[grim cloak]

He’s just heads down on the game.

[rocky topaz]

Perfect <3 also, I do hope to be of some sort of help with Jin, in anyway, cause you probably know how important is to me, and I REALLY want him to be something special

[rocky topaz]

Oh yea, I know, just wanna give him some shit <3

Him and Tehleach

[grim cloak]

For Eva - think she’ll feel better after we fix the multi-hit issue (it’s fixed.) Some of this was compensation given that issue. We’ll shift some of the power around once the fix it out with the next patch.

[loud harbor]

Hudson + eva currently is just busted. Cus of simply how much healing she does.

I can get disagreeing but I strongly believe her healing has to go down.

[crisp iron]

I would have phrased this a little more delicately but I agree overall I think Eva has become a problem in Arena specifically. There's a lot of matchups she can facetank by just putting orbs down and ignoring your damage.

If you didn't luck into long duration anti-heal in your comp she's a huge problem. I can foresee her being pick/ban in any upcoming arena tournaments. Stick an Oath on her to defend and you're lowkey invincible.

[vale token]

Heard that you guys are working on the proper tutorial but this "tempoary" version seems to be hurting players more then it not exsisting does. Atleast from what ive seen from the community reaction. I dont have the numbers like you guys do but I do interact with the community a bunch and kinda felt a crack form.

[vale token]

For sure. I face tanked a team for like 10 seconds cus they didnt have an anti heal

Its a little much

[grim cloak]

Understood. Main thing I’m clarifying is mainly that the account leveling track is separate from the updated tutorial effort.

[loud harbor]

All I hope is that she doesn't heal people from almost dead to full in like a second and basically doesn't have a cd.

[fickle tinsel]

I would like to summon @patent lodge if he's around, because I know he has some thoughts on Eva after playing a lot of games on her but I think he's going to work

believe the tl;dr of his take is it feels like Eva just statchecks people with big heals and big damage with little room for self-expression and thought

and if she gets antihealed she's just boned

[grim cloak]

Yeah, this makes sense.

[vale token]

Eva has been bringing to my mind Anti heal as a mechanic.
If you dont have it against a high heal character you suffer.
If you have it you avoid their main gimick.
Very Binary

[crisp iron]

I'll second that. She doesn't feel like she has a lot of room for expression in her kit currently. She either heals a boatload or can do nothing in a fight. Having a lack of real utility outside of her built in ult/pull combo really pigeon-holes her I feel.

[patent lodge]

Naw no work today, the only thing I've been grinding is Runescape new survival game LOL. But I am definitely excited to talk about so let me get to ag ood stopping point and I could drop some paragraphs LOL

[fickle tinsel]

wtf didn't even tell me no work

[grim cloak]

Hahaha.

[patent lodge]

I try to dodge playing with you every chacne I get you gravel chewing felix main /s

[fickle tinsel]

true + fair

[patent lodge]

Alrighty, now that I am fully locked into conversation, I wanted to say very happy that we still are even doing these like MONTHS after the first one. I don't think I can utter how much I enjoy and feel lucky to be a part of a community that does this, so thank you again TC and shoutout @grim cloak for continously no matter where you may be, doing these

[vale token]

ive been wondering if Heals should be as high as to nullify a characters damage completely?
Wondering if Antiheal should be an ult only mechanic and have a seperate debuff for Healing reduction
Also lower the healing across the board to compensate.

Not sure if its in SUPERVIVES vision but I feel it would be healthier for heals to keep a person allive only a little longer when being focused instead of nullifying damage taken.

[grim cloak]

Appreciate this crew. We pull feedback and fix issues reported here regularly. I share all the love with the team, too.

[surreal ivy]

ive been wondering if Heals should be as high as to nullify a characters damage completely?
chiming in specifically to say that it's always felt pretty bad having my entire Void combo (sometimes even including Q detonation) nearly completely negated by an enemy Zeph.
elluna, in all of her changes, has never really caused the same frustration largely because her healing has never been anywhere near as "boom you're back at full health instantly" as what Zeph can do
haven't really played enough since Eva came out to be able to comment on her specifically tho

[rocky topaz]

@grim cloak How long are y'all going to be working in person?

[vale token]

Yeah burst heals spesifically come to mind. Those are just super bolatile

Looking at other games high burst heals are rare'ish and tend to be volatile

Always issues around them.

Because it just feels bad to have your damage instantly undone

And it changes break points instantly meanwhile Overtime heals tend to be less oppressive (unless they are stupid high)

[surreal ivy]

imo it's problematic more so when it's not an equivalent expenditure
Zeph pressing RMB 3 times is not equivalent to Void Q + RMB + R + LMB spam
obv you can't really equate the two since Zeph's kit isn't all healing while Void's kit is almost all damage, but that he doesn't always even need to ult to negate my input is kinda bleh

but then we get into the territory of "is healing even relevant if you can't do big healing super quickly since damage is done super fast in large amounts"

[rare thicket]

Zeph doing the most damage and healing his team to full

[vale token]

I would be fine with an ultimate + extra outhealing my ultimate + extra

[grim cloak]

Direction for anti-heal’s been - 1. anti-heal’s historically been 100/0 to support the current TTK and allow heals to be satisfying/strong. 2. If anything, would want to give Hunters without anti-heal more anti-heal options in the future, so you don’t need to run anti-heal at the roster level.

[grim cloak]

Whole group’s been together since yesterday - going to wrap up end of day today. Tehleach sticking around next week.

[rocky topaz]

If anything with the giving out more anti heal, it should definitely be something that is "Shorter" where you have to time it for the anti heal to actively be effective with it.

[surreal ivy]

2. If anything, would want to give Hunters without anti-heal more anti-heal options in the future
   for sake of discussion, i feel like more anti-heal in abilities runs the risk of just negating healing outright as a global thing (i.e. why bother having a support that heals in your comp at all if there's too much antiheal application in the game) if antiheal stays at 100% reduction.
   more sources of 100% heal reduction could be really messy.

[rocky topaz]

Sick (Tell him I said Hi, and all that stuff)

[fickle tinsel]

I do think anti-heals can be too long

[grim cloak]

Yeah, generally agree.

[fickle tinsel]

If heals are going to be so substantial, maybe anti-heal could be 100/0 but last less?

[rocky topaz]

Like Anti heal should be a "Parry" to healing

[vale token]

Cus there is kinda the trade of if antiheal is really strong then heals ALSO have to be really strong

[crisp iron]

ooooooh that sound giga-engaging I kinda love it

[fickle tinsel]

I think that would also contribute to the "intentionality to combat" that was mentioned in the last Fireside

Like, you want to time your anti-heals

[grim cloak]

We also take into account pot availability since it cleanses anti-heal, and generally players have pots on them.

[fickle tinsel]

True

[surreal ivy]

which in turn means you would need/want to time your heals

[vale token]

Anties currently feel they get thrown at someone and they either do nothing or they murder the character they hit

Sometimes you get antied randomly and are like "Damn 💀 "

[surreal ivy]

imo antiheal has always kinda felt out of place, or at least awkward, since it was added

[fickle tinsel]

can confirm, I get called out by my team if i get anti'd and need to back off

that callout immediately triggers the flight response at this point

[grim cloak]

It’s a good team call.

[fickle tinsel]

100%

[crisp iron]

also can we get back the purple health bar for when we're anti-healed? I loved it and was sad to see it go

[vale token]

"Get out you got hit with the 'you die instantly' debuff"

[crisp iron]

it was very visually distinct

[surreal ivy]

i've honestly never had a situation where i get antihealed in combat and live long enough afterwards for a callout on that to have mattered

i either get antihealed by a stray shot and am not taking damage and don't need to care that i'm antihealed, or get antihealed while i am in the process of having my healthbar sent to brazil and no amount of healing would save me anyway

[grim cloak]

I’m asking Bartleby right now.

[fickle tinsel]

would love that purple health bar back

[crisp iron]

HELL YEAH <3

[fickle tinsel]

it's a really good indicator

[grim cloak]

“Are you livestreaming this right now?”

[fickle tinsel]

LMAO

[grim cloak]

No…

Lol

[fickle tinsel]

i imagine the team all hanging in beanbag chairs with laptops chatting

[rocky topaz]

Wow, Bartleby doesn't wanna see us </3

I see how it is

[grim cloak]

He recalled feedback he got from folks thinking it was too loud, but generally open.

[vale token]

I will say pots ingoring anti feels like a weird thing. Since if you get antied in a fight, you are most likely dying anyways if you try and pot. And if the anti heal is SO long you have the time to chug pots I feel that might be a red flag

[fickle tinsel]

Is Anti-Heal designed to be a "parry" to heals, or a pressure tool? I feel like it's treated like the latter

[grim cloak]

Meant to be a response to heals, but for sure at these lengths, it’s also a pressure tool.

[loud harbor]

It's really annoying when i get antied as hudson and become useless for like 10 seconds.

[crisp iron]

Heals being as fast as they are tends to throw a wrench into using anti-heals reactively or as a response. For most hunters by the time you try to react to a heal with your kit it's already over unless you're currently on top of them. In which case it's not really a reaction just part of your combo and an afterthought.

[surreal ivy]

which is assuming you're playing a hunter that gets an antiheal to begin with, though i suppose that's a separate issue

[patent lodge]

Okay I am not going lie, I do NOT want to just drop my essay ass response in this discussion soley because it will get lost and is A LOT but it gets into the protector role and how that plays into Eva, would it be okay to just dm you it? @grim cloak

If you like I can just send it here, but I feel other people would be annoyed with just how much it is LOL

I could bring up key concepts here but it just is too much LOL

[grim cloak]

Like this point more than anti-heal duration.

[crisp iron]

Eva is probably the only hunter I can think of where I can in theory use my anti-heal reactively, but even then in most cases maybe only as Saros where gap-closing isn't part of the equation

I usually just throw it out right before big damage comes in to secure the damage or kill for my team

as a preventative measure

[vale token]

Also gonna yap a little
SHIELDS are often frowned upon in mobas and likes because they appear suddenly and Negate your damage for a second or two and then dissapear. But then if waited out the character that got shielded dies anyways.
Some games do this thing where shields remain at full strenght for a short period and then start decaying quickly. I think if you ever introduce Shield abilities this should be how they work.

Burst heals have the issue where your damage was negated AND now you gotta also burn through the hp they got since hp is premanent and wont decay/dissapear
That is why heals tend to be atleast semi over time effects.

[surreal ivy]

shields
having a shield eat my damage has never felt nearly as bad as having my damage just be un-done.

[grim cloak]

Yeah! Hit me up anytime.

[vale token]

I feel shields should be a "Burst" parry and heals are for sustained fights

[patent lodge]

This anti-heal discussion plays into what I was talking about when it comes to the protector role as well. It boils down to if across the board the best way to "protect" your allies is jsut by doing raw damage. On elluna, zeph, and Eva the best thing you can do is just be aggressive and throw in heals here and there and I feel a reason why these hunter's have turned out this way is due to the philosophy of 1vN and how all hutner's have to have the ability to fight on their own but when the damage part just outshines the supportive side, what makes protectors protectors?

Some slight healing modification at best? It isn't about manipulating how you rez wisps (elluna passive/zeph ultimate) because oath can with hammer and beebo can with bomb.

[patent lodge]

Much obligied! Sorry in advance for the essay

[vale token]

I do agree with that. Shields just tend to be more common "Sudden burst" type abilities

And normally shields have higher numbers then heals

[stray dock]

Do you have a favored solution to this trend?

[grim cloak]

Hmm. My phone is about to die.

[rocky topaz]

Steal TehLeaches

[blazing sage]

rip phone

[surreal ivy]

i advise pre-mortem necromancy

[grim cloak]

Lmao

I read every response here out loud.

[fickle tinsel]

LMAO

so that's why they were asking you about streaming

respect

[grim cloak]

Thanks for the time all. I’m going to head out, but Bartleby might join me next Friday.

[rocky topaz]

@woeful topaz Your phone has been taken in propituity to keep Safelocked in this chat as possible, You have no ability to say no, it is happening

[fickle tinsel]

sounds good jess! thanks for the chat

[vale token]

Looking forward to it

[grim cloak]

NO HE’S GOING TO BE SO CONFUSED

Lol

[rocky topaz]

PERFECT

"What the fuck is Major saying?"

[vale token]

His pfp encapsulates his reaction to this information perfectly

[fickle tinsel]

[grim cloak]

Hahaha.

[rocky topaz]

[grim cloak]

See you guys soon.

[vale token]

Cya

[grim cloak]

[fickle tinsel]

see ya jess!

real

[rocky topaz]

Have a good evening Jess

Happy Bir-

[vale token]

Whats the opposite of birthday

Deathnight?

[surreal ivy]

Death Knight re-addition confirmed

[fickle tinsel]

made this a gif for later btw

[vale token]

Lmao

[patent lodge]

If you mean this trend of protectors just focusing on dps instead of healing... I don't know if I have a solid solution but I can list things that I think are playing core factors in it.

1)1vN idea (this bleeds into all roles to a degree but I only feel super comfortable talking on protector role since I am like lvl 3 at least on all those hunter's)
2)The "Protector" needing potentially more utility? Nerf their damage but give them mroe ways to inspire/buffs allies.
3)Overall ttk may be another solution, but that will inhernetly change the pacing of the game and really change the momentum. Could be too risky at this point.

I've been thinking of making a discussion post to this question to well... start a discussion on waht people think. As a support player in general, I feel at times more supportive in the controller role because at least I am taking up space for my teammates to play around.

[fickle tinsel]

I think this leans into the "holy trinity" discussion

and whether that's something SUPERVIVE wants or needs

[vale token]

To me
DPS is DPS
Tank is FAT DPS
Support is DPS with TEAM UTILITY

But ive mostly played games like league and Overwatch/Marvel rivals so

idk how yall see them

[surreal ivy]

could loosely-couple support healing output to their damage, if they're going to be doing damage anyway
but that spawns a whole new set of issues

[vale token]

Kinda like how In marvel rivals the supports have to kinda choose between healing or dealing damage (atleast some characters)

Like Mantis and Zenyatta have the same thing going on for them. They deal a lot of dmg but heal less and their heals are gradual. They also allow dmg amp.
Adam warlock is basically a dps who has 2 random burst heals.

League.
Nami is a support but is more utility/cc and damage focused.
Karma Has to choose which ability to use. Does she self peel. aoe shield + ms or does she nuke someones hp with the spirit bomb

Soraka is full healer but her really high healing is gated by her dealing damage to herself and requires landing Q consistenly.

[patent lodge]

Her health bar as a resource for the high healing consistently as well

[vale token]

And her Silence might be one of the strongest abilities in the game no joke

[fickle tinsel]

I would say rivals/overwatch supports still deal damage, but not to the extent of supervive's

[vale token]

Yeah

[patent lodge]

My adam warlock can pump but my insane burst healing/rez's is what made me a support

in this game, I have healingon the side but on zeph my vacuum+passive+reset passive+ult is how I support my team. By killing my enemies

[vale token]

Imo supports should always have the damage to defend themselves. but dps are supposed to be that ones who got the dmg potential to kill teams

Br nature kinda messes with that

[stray dock]

I mean. Overwatch is a game who got a much larger audience beyond the hero shooter crowd because it didn't take that route. Characters like mercy or lw spend most their abilities and brain space on saving their buddies, not getting kills, though they have that option. And while that's not without controversy, it opens the game to a wider audience.

[fickle tinsel]

dps moira

[vale token]

My favorite was dps mercy

The clock unleashed

Guardian angle attacks

The flight of the valkyries patch

Even then Mercy isnt completely defenseless. She can still kill, but she is more so balanced around the fact she is hyper mobile and can rez

[stray dock]

She's not completely defenseless. But see not prioritizing aggression outside of specific circumstances and memeplay

[vale token]

Gonna compare to rocket racoon. Mobile healer character who can rez. Also has the top 5 strongest dps guns in the game . Rocket shreds a tank in 2 seconds flat, faster then dps characters

Also has dmg amp like mercy

[stray dock]

Are we saying rocket is... Better hero design?

[vale token]

Mercy doesnt deal dmg her self she enables a teammate to deal MORE dmg too

[vale token]

never said that

But I wouldnt say he is bad design. Idk whats up with the racoon hate

[stray dock]

You said compare the two. What conclusions are we drawing from that comparison?

[vale token]

I was supposed to more so point out a similar character who does a similar thing

I feel there is an underlying connection

And since marvel rivals came out way after Overwatch they have the benefit if hindsight and can "copy" overwatches homework on what worked and what didnt

I believe some trends in character kit designs happen for a reason

[stray dock]

I personally don't know how well marvel rivals reflects lessons from overwatch beyond "don't alienate and piss off your player base constantly", since it both recreates some mistakes (having DPS have massively more characters than other categories then wondering why they struggle to populate other roles) and failing to adequately copy ow's homework (ow got subtle factors like ultra clear sound design to signal danger, actions, and threats well. Marvel rivals muffles your ability to hear threats at low health). Clearly MR is successful, but I personally wouldn't attribute that to them meaningfully evolving design concepts or core gameplay of its inspiration.

[vale token]

Idk why every damn hero based game launches with a lobsided roster

They will be fixing it for years to come

[stray dock]

Ow both underestimated the role of tanks and healers, and thought damage would be in two meaningful distinction based on what side of asymmetrical game modes you played. More generally, it seems to come from an assumption that pure DPS is more "pure" or uncut gameplay so therefore they're easiest to imagine.

[vale token]

I dont think I attributed them evolving. More so just copying what worked for most part and changing it a little.

[stray dock]

Sure I'm just saying their design decisions don't seem to have hindsight or "lessons learned" feel to me.

In terms of gameplay.

[vale token]

I feel like no one seems to learn. Its kinda weird ngl. Game comes out, great. Patches start rolling out. and you wonder how was this game made in the first place without it being a mess.

what was i on about originally

Its 3 am my mind is drifting

[vale token]

Damage is the primary way you interact with enemies in games. Without damage you don't really interact with the enemy. So it kinda makes sense then that even the supportive characters deal damage. Either they deal damage directly or indirectly

A support must be able to enable damage output for their team. Else they are dead weight.

Thats why I think every character is a variation of "DPS"

[sonic iron]

i think this is a good direction to go in for handling eva as well, if every hunter has a tool to deal with healing, then there's no longer any situations where she outheals a kit - you'd have to meaningfully work with cooldowns available to you

[vale token]

Main concern is that it locks out design directions for heal focused characters

If everyone has antiheal in its current form then heal characters would be even more binary in fights.
Antied = loss
No anti = win

[sonic iron]

wouldn't you just kite and wait for the cooldown? obviously not an optimal situation but that's what happens now anyways

like if myth rain of arrows comes down we basically just back out for a few secds

[vale token]

Imagine everyone had that

[sonic iron]

I see your point

there'd never be a good time to go in

[vale token]

Thats my concern

Thats why I think ANTI heal should be rarer. BUT have a mechanic like Healing reduction. and reduce healing roster wide.
Other option is for anties to be very short duration to guarantee a burst kill.

Making anti rarer, but healing reduction being a little more accesible In my opinion would allow for heals to be a little lower in power. Since they would still save allies in a pinch. Something like Zeph heal wouldnt just full heal randomly or not do anything because anti
It sucks to have your damage undone from a button press, But it also sucks to try and save and ally only for it to be null because they are guaranteed antied.

I think having healing be lower roster wide would make situations like these rarer. Zeph could still save an ally if but they wouldnt be full hp instantly. If they where heal reduced the healing CAN still save them but its not as guaranteed. If they where Anti healed you know because they used a very key ability like KP ult or Hudson ult. So you know not to waste the heal on it

Also another option maybe worth exploring is for anti heal to slow down healing rate. Makes any heal take longer to affect. (Zeph heals have been polarizing so using them as an example) Lets say Zeph heals an ally who was anti healed. The heal wouldnt be a full hp burst but instead would happen over the duration of the debuff.
Would allow heals to still save allies but not guaranteed.

[surreal ivy]

Thats why I think ANTI heal should be rarer. BUT have a mechanic like Healing reduction.
the return of withered vs. antiheal except this time they're actually different things

[sonic iron]

oh i like that actually, say like anti-heal applied a 5 second heal-over-time instead

[loud harbor]

Just wanna mention rq that masamune is missing dash haste. It's supposed to have every stat to make it fair that it drops on death. But it doesn’t give dash haste.

[vale token]

please it would be so

[vale token]

So called HOT's are generally believed to be less toxic and easier to play around then sudden burst heals so I thought it would make sense that forcing the Burst heal (which tends to be toxic) to become something less toxic could be good.

Im so tired

[loud harbor]

So is Hudson rework next patch maybe? Cus she mentioned she was testing it so I'm wandering when exactly were supposed to get it.

[vale token]

I love you Hudson

[loud harbor]

Ima just mention this here.

Hudson, brall, and shiv really ahould not heal extra from the healing mechanic. Since they already have their own healing mechanic in their passive. So making them heal more just cus everyone else now heals too is kinda weird imo.

[vale token]

I just somewhat disagree with how the reset thing was implemented. Feel there was a more elegant solution

[loud harbor]

I honestly don't see what they really could've done differently. I do think they made the heal way too high.

[vale token]

I feel More character spesific resets. Its the kind of thing everyone should have been designed around in the first place

If the goal is to allow every character to pop off

[wind violet]

Disagree as well

I think Eva is in A solid spot right she doesn’t do to much healing and it’s only good/decent if you have them stand in or whiles lmb but if not then healing is mid at most and she has tones of skill expression especially with orb play it’s so much fun and feels like juggling literally and it takes time to get good at managing your orbs and playing around them and if you put the time into you learning it and getting good it pays off

She’s in a good spot let’s keep it that way

Her damage is also good it doesn’t do to much initially but if you play properly you can get good damage numbers on her

Stand in orb*

Her damage is still low but that’s fine she doesn’t need high damage numbers

[loud harbor]

"Doesn't do to much healing" is false. She can literally heal someone from almost dead to full in like a second. That's more healing than zeph before his healing nerfs, then eva quite literally just does not fucking die now.

Then her dmg is honestly insane. She can do 1k dmg way too fast now. Supposedly that's cus of an orb stacking bug that causes dmg to stack which would explain why she sometimes is capable of 1k dmg in 5 seconds.

If you have played against a hudson + eva then you should know jist how frustrating it is to play against that. The eva makes the Hudson immortal. So unless you're running a hunter with a bunch of anti heal you csnt really do much unless the eva ints too hard at aome point.

I also wanna specify this, eva is mainly op for teamplay(imo she is op). Not really much solo. If eva is by herself she does struggle a decent amount cus you can kinda just rush her. But with her team she basically does not die if her team actually defends her and her team doesn't die if she heals them well. Then unless you got a brall or felix you ain't doing much.

[wind violet]

I disagree please don’t make them ruin the hunter 😭😭

She is in a okay spot

She isn’t op

[spiral flare]

The problem with Eva isnt her numbers, its how she works in the current trios environment. With the current trios being skewed towards hunters that can duel more effectively, there is little to no space for hunters that cannot do that. If you have a jin brall shiv joule coming at you in this current state of the game, your hope as a more supportive hunter is to support your teammate as much as possible and hope they can deal with the incoming enemies. The devs are even making the game more skewed towards fighting in general and if they keep this up I honestly see no space for more supportive hunters that do no damage. And the moment those supportive hunters can do damage, it becomes OP because they can do damage and support but regular damage hunters can only do damage (Think of the big shield man Oath) This same argument can be made for literally any other hunter that fills a more supportive role.

They need to make up their minds on whether they want hunters skills to supplement the combat

Or make the skills BE the combat

[loud harbor]

The main reason I think she's op os cus of how fast she deletes me. And the fact she can heal an absolute insane amount rn.

Zeph in the past was mainly op due to healing and his insane dmg to add to that. Eva has insane healing and dmg, the same issue zeph used to have.
To me, that seems like a clear indicator she's kinda broken.

[spiral flare]

If its this then there is no point in running supports

This game is literally having an identity crisis. It wants to encourage fighting (which promotes playing hunters that can duel better) and are yet still want to keep the role of supports which has little place in where this is headed

The moment supports are OP is when they can do the role of damage hunters + more. Which is what we get with oath

But if they cant do the role of damage hunters then they are near useless because currently the state of the game is encouraging fighting as an individual

[wind violet]

I play a lot and I mean a lot of Eva I’m mastery 6 on her I played her from launch and stuck through even when she was straight garbage. I am diamond 1 in my personal experience she is easy to deal with people kill me all the time even when I’m not mis playing or bad positioning they jump on me and I’m dead with or with out my team there. That’s dependent tho like what color my items are what powers I have etc… her heals like I said only do the 0 to 100 thing your talking about whne you mix her orb heals with her lmb but most of the time people who actaully play the game just get rid of orb then what

And on top of that

[spiral flare]

They need to decide on a clear path otherwise this problem will keep appearing in the future

[wind violet]

If your healing your team in a big team fight

You run out of mana fast

So that another aspect that makes her weak if you don’t have mana powers and your just healing you run out of mana then you’re screwed

She is easy to deal with

And her damage is finally able to do something

It doesn’t need more buffs or nerfs

Her damage is perfect

[loud harbor]

That is kinda when eva dies, when people jump her. But just cus she has a weakness doesn't really justify her. Cus her team can make up for said weakness then wtf can you even do.

Just throw an oath on a team with eva and good fucking luck, then add Hudson there and you got what is probably one if the most op comps rn.

We kinda just disagree here. But she feels disgusting in arena and still feels really disgusting if the player is any good in br.

I don't see much reason to continue cus I'll prob just be repeating what I say. We just disagree, that's that

[wind violet]

I mean I do agree with this you mix her with certain champs she can become more op but that’s fine imo there’s still some kind of counter play

But yeah

We do disagree and it’s fine

I just really don’t want them to gut her and have her feeling like launch

Which is un playable

She is so much fun I enjoy her

Would suck

Haha selfish I guess

Also idk how she plays in arena since buffs

[loud harbor]

That I can understand. I don't want her ti be back at the level of launch. I just want them to tune down the buffs a little.

Her healing imo was always pretty good. The issue was more so her orbs died insanly fast, at least from what I see that seemed like the main issue.

[stray dock]

When she say she deletes you, who is she deleting you as?

[loud harbor]

Hudson

(Off topic) I love how brall and jin are still ruining the game for me.

Then brall wasn't even touched, and jin barely got touched.

They are kinda the main hunters I referred to when I said before "it feels like op hunters stay op and are neve nerfed". Cus it really feels like that.

[stray dock]

So right now she has definite power, but it's very specific, meaning she has clear counterplay and power plays. Her damage largely comes down to linear, area specific grinds. If you're able to get around her aoes, kite her lmb, hit her with some burst, she's not that scary usually. Same with her heals - they're powerful when you let her pump them out, but dependent either on her full concentration or fragile items. Break her eyes, don't give her room to breathe, and that output dries up quickly.

Now, if you were doing something like relying on a low mobility hero who is relying on raw, linear damage output himself, who wants to squat and grind with some easy destructibles... that seems a recipe for her strong points being a natural counter to Huddy's current strong points.

[loud harbor]

Non of this is that related to why I say she's op. I do think her damage is just too high cus doing 1k dmg in that short if a time doesn't seem OK.

Then watching her heal someone from near 0 to 100 that fast feels unfair

[stray dock]

Damage can feel like a lot, but you're playing what feels like the perfect character to naturally take the brunt of that, and have the least tools to counteract her if you fight on her terms. Like, for hudson to be be at much of an advantage given the basic way their interactions flow, she would need to be weak enough on damage to shrug off standing in her aoe's and beam, and weak enough in heals to easily and always burn through her heals. Some of that is how brittle hudson's current kit is, but just looking at their kits she feels a natural counter to his playstyle (unless of course you're breaking her toys and putting the grind on her immobile and squishy face)

[loud harbor]

Ims just talk about this here rq.

Ghost needs a nerf. The only hunter that is more of a problem than Ghost is Brall. Ghost doesn't even need to hit you with his nade health the time cus his base lmb shreds you like paper anyways. Then he might as well be able to spam his nade, and if he hits you even once he shreds you even more.

Myth, oath, ghost, and brall need nerfs.

I don't even think jin is that bad his mobility is just obnoxious to play against.

[obtuse ferry]

Yes, Every hunter except Hudson need a nerf

[vale token]

But wouldnt nerfing everyone kinda kill the fun?
Though has there been a character whose power level everyone should be compared to

[heady wigeon]

ppl on eu scrim discord are dropping like flies constantly playing other games or playing supervive less. Stop catering to noobs and make this game rewarding to invest time into for the love of god

[loud harbor]

Asking them to do something about hunters literally making the game unfun isn't allowed supposedly.

And I literally only mentioned 4 hunters.

[vale token]

More up to the "Buff dont nerf" mentaility

If you have something game breaking, of course by all means delete that shit. But I feel nearly everything can be designed around.

And the "Delete/nerf" can be done smartly

[loud harbor]

I feel like of they bring every other hunter up to the level of the op hunters it'll just push off new/lower elo players.

I'm fine if hunters get stronger as you get better at them, that's kinda normal. But you should still be able to do something against a good player of that character. Cus you are basically helpless against a good oath, myth, ghost, and brall rn.

And for myth and ghost you literally just need to learn to use thwir lmb and you win, sure hitting myth lmb is kinda hard but ghost gets a literal lazer for an lmb.

[vale token]

I dont really agree with everyone being strong in their own right pushing away new players. I feel harder to play characters being strictly better will push away players more

Like yeah Oath is hard to play but idk if its fair for him to be that ridiculously strong that you cant fight him on "Less difficult" characters

[heady wigeon]

Harder characters should be more rewarding than no brain characters but doesnt mean no brain characters dont have a place or shouldnt be viable or able to compete

[vale token]

Yeah

Trying to come up with an comparison

Simpler characters should only do a limited amounts of things. But be pretty damn reliable at those things.
Harder to play characters should be strong in more ways but maybe not as reliable.

Like Yasuo in league can do a lot of stuff and pop off if he is good.
But he requires good execution. and isnt as reliable

Someone like malzahar kinda just E Q W R and he locks someone down/kills them.
Simple kit does a few things but does them reliably.

maybe not the best comparisons but I think the point kinda comes through

[heady wigeon]

They should be reliable if ur good enough otherwise no yeah

idk if thats what y meant

[vale token]

Maybe blitz could be a better one.
Does basically 1 thing and is optimized to do that said thing. Hooks someone cc's them. 👍
Kp honestly quite similar but thats just the Hook char archetype

Thresh on the other hand can do way more then blitz. But his kit isnt as optimized for just the hook. He has empowered autos, slows and other displacement. And has the lantern.
But his Hook has a longer cast and his tools individually arent as reliable as blitz.

[vale token]

yeah that

[dusk scroll]

for me KP is a good design for that.

An easy kit to learn, with a good value for the team. And a bad or good player will always kinda get value out of it.

And if you're really good with him, you can legit solo carry.

an he works at every elos

[vale token]

Thresh hook comes out slower, slower projectile, pulls less. He can also decide if to commit to the engage with the dash or not.
His knockback/stun on flay isnt as strong as blitz uppercut but its wider aoe and he can decide if to pull enemies or push them away. And can hit multiple enemies.
Ult isnt instant damage but it locks enemies in an area. And can stay as a zoning tool.

Him and blitz do similar things but thresh has more options and things to do at the cost of slighty weaker abilities. the power comes more from the utility then reliability

Does that make sense?

[vale token]

Kp might be one of the better hook archetype characters ive seen ngl. and one of the better designs in supervive
Simple and quite efficient.

Though hook archetypes are difficult to really mess up with

[heady wigeon]

Nah Kp is ez

he dont have much skill ceiling whatsoever, theres few combos thats it. But in 9/10 situations ur abilities are used int he same way. And theres not a high need for mechanical skill to play him either. Hes apart of the easy to play but should be viable compared to ex: Shiv

[loud harbor]

Kp honestly does have a decent skill ceiling. Just cus a character is mechanical intensive doesn't mean thwir skill ceiling is low.(pretty sure thats what you're saying)

[vale token]

He doesnt need to do much else. he hooks slams and kills.
He does have some team utility with the teammate and wisp hooks though, I feel there could be something more done with that (Like cd/mana refund on ally hit)

And he has the shift reset thingy if you want to play around lmb spam

[heady wigeon]

U consider both not just one. Kp skill ceiling is low mechanically and not that high thought wise. So comparing to shiv its basic

[vale token]

My favorite part of Kp is the awkward stare downs you have with other close range hunters.

[loud harbor]

Comparing to shiv most hunters are pretty basic in their skill ceiling tbf.

Thinking about how your enemy will move or try to dodge your hook is something pretty important on kp and is the main "thought" he has to go through

[loud harbor]

I love when me and a kp spend 2 minutes straight trying to hook one another :)

[vale token]

Hardest part of kp is probably just the Hook. When to use, where to fire.

I like KP

[heady wigeon]

Ye

U can argue the passive reset mechanic on his gun

But thats like a moment where it becomes hard

Outside of that meh

[fickle tinsel]

I think Oath at max value is hard to play but he gets inherently good value even outside of that

like you don't have to be good at oath to play him at a fundamental level

you can be a pretty mediocre oath and still just shift+R+statcheck people into oblivion

[vale token]

Thats also kind of an issue. He is starts out good and gets insane at max value

It most likely an issue with his design

[indigo spear]

I agree with this to a certain extent

but they shouldnt be leaving some characters in s tier for so long

in my opinion the best point of balance would be one where every hunter is either a or b tier

with a being strong and realiable and b being skill dependent/ viable

[loud harbor]

Idk about others but the hunters i put in s tier are normally just hunters I think sre kinds broken.

Either than or it's just a hunter with a really high skill ceiling. Like shiv, she's s tier for me but i don't think she's broken.

[tribal stone]

u guys seem to put shiv a lot higher than i think she actually is haha

[vale token]

S tiers are either over stated or overloaded I feel like.
Also yeah shiv isnt like turbo broken

She does her thing really if the player is good. But she feels fair to fight (as long as you arent way behind her in stats)

But thats kind of another thing ive noticed with this game. Sometimes the enemies stats are just higher then yours.

[tribal stone]

eveen really good shivs, the ceiling output is not high because she has a ton of counterplay. she struggles vs ranged heroes

[vale token]

Yeah

[crisp iron]

I put shiv in my U tier personally. U for Unfun to engage with. Either she doesn't touch you or a good Shiv one shots you. A very on/off binary kit like hers I find really boring to play and play against.

[loud harbor]

She's hella fun to play for me. Go in hit a bunch of shots and be literally untouchable.

I do still feel like her ult is too strong. Like I just use my ult then whoever is near just gets deleted, the dmg nerf they gave it didnt really change that.

[loud harbor]

I feel like the problem is more so that some hunters scale way more than others. Like a red item felix while you are only blue items isn't that scary, but if you see a shiv, jin, ir brall with red items while you're only blue even if you guys are the same level you should not fight, cus they'll just out stat you.

[vale token]

I just realized the way the balance the game is just "Aura and Hype moments"

[vale token]

Think its because Felix dmg scalings seem to be more in the DOT. (not 100% Sure dont quote me on this)
Meanwhile Jin, shiv and brall have like really high ap scalings built in

[heady wigeon]

I mean skill ceiling is high regardless and more so when comparing it to lower skill ceilings. Wether low or high on the high skill ceiling tier is another topic idk. And the fact theres counterplay is good arguement but she has dashes to do so aswell. If enemy has dash to negate shift reset then u can counteract it by engaging with ult dashese first or w/e. On celeste as example its more straight forward how things play out / the enemy at times has to play into you for options to unlock while shiv can always kinda decide on her own yet a shit decision can fuck it all up. Thats how i see it, ur still right that its not easy for a shiv to do so against better players but theres wiggle room to play with compared to some other hunters that dont have it or very little.

[heady wigeon]

Ye

Idk if u saw but theres multiple cllips of insane outplays and a quick outplay or teamplay like a beebo celeste combo compared to a 1v3 outplay looks and feels alot different

The longer and more mechanically intesnsive a play is it allows for tension to build up

[vale token]

Some characters are hogging all the aura and hype moments

[heady wigeon]

A combo aa champ will be nice. Like imagine shiv but without bolas yet the replacement ability shoots out the last 5 lmb's in rapic succesion either where aiming or where they were previously aimed

I wanna see mechanics like that

🪂 glidin

lika a nidalee or ezreal noobs will basically never be usefull on it

XD

[stray dock]

personally I've seen pretty consistent hype moments from most the cast, with like... one or two that just aren't photogenic like that?

[heady wigeon]

Ye any character can do hype plays and shit its about the difference between them or how they buildup/play out

[vale token]

My favorite part of vive as a hudson player is trying to fight 2 people at once and managing to get 1 of them. Checking the Oath channel and seeing a clip of Oath just deleting an entire team in seconds

Im sweating bullets trying to 1v1n an elluna and then I just see Oath delete someone

Idk

[cobalt lintel]

This is a very questionable comparison to be making.

[vale token]

It kinda just feels bad

[cobalt lintel]

This is the same kind of comparison that makes people depressed or whatever looking at social media

At least how you described it

[vale token]

Maybe a little

[heady wigeon]

double dagger oath is for the gigachad gymbros

frenchcore enjoyers

[vale token]

Looking at all the shit Oath can do and then looking at my Fat Chungus hudson life and crying myself to sleep

[loud harbor]

Getting one shot by an oath is an experience we must all go through...

[vale token]

Rite of passage for a viver

[loud harbor]

I've been on my shiv grind recently, and i like how I don't feel helpless. On hudson half the time I literally just have to pray that i kill someone

[vale token]

Praying the enemy has a stroke mid fight and forgets to move

Been playing Eva and she feels nicer to play. Might be because I like that kind of gameplay but atleast she has better self peel tools

[livid warren]

The only way to play him. Interweaver Rampage. Wear the RMB off your mouse.

[heady wigeon]

yeye

But dont do too good on it cos noobs will get u nerfed to unplayable

Dont hit the weekly reddit double dagger oath is unfair post cap and ur good

[loud harbor]

You're acting like oath is fine with that msg. Which is really insane.

[livid warren]

Being fair and objective, Oath needs a nerf (and Hudson needs a buff).

Being someone who plays Oath, my boy is just fine the way he is.

[loud harbor]

We wait for hudson's rework before we say anything about buffing my boy. It should be coming on the 30th(not confirmed just a safe assumption).

[livid warren]

I don't think it would take too much to bring Oath in line though. Remove B-Hop. Change RMB to Parry w/ CD + reset on X dmg absorbed (also bake the knockback into the parry).

Makes his weakness mobility. Removes his somewhat degenerate interactions with RMB + Interweaver / Rampage. Removes the somewhat confusing aspects of his gameplay for newer players (B-Hopping / RMB spamming if doing double dagger) while keeping the core of his kit intact.

(I dunno if double dagger is actually meta in scrims or even ranked play; just what I've landed on in ranked queues that seems to work well with him. I'd guess in more structured play you probably wouldn't need to go Aggroath build.)

[heady wigeon]

Dont twist my salami cuh. I just cba having it removed or gutted entierly cos if its not done ppl continue to cry even if it becomes more balanced yet still fun to go

[loud harbor]

Everything gets gutted then rebuffed. Tc almost never does nerfs correctly, they're almost always too much.

[heady wigeon]

ye idk would take me 1 adhd brainfart to fix oath and make both sides reasonably happy. Dont think its a hard champ to fix at all. He already works with cd reduction and resets through abilities so shif tthe power from going double dagger into that. Having the double dagger damage work of multiple hits with shield bash or something so its not as instant of a oneshot yet if hes ahead and fed, does the right combo/engage he can still do so but not in a no hands way, but with mechincal requirement + having to be ahead for example relative ot an enemy and if not then u do maybe dmg but u get someone to lethal for ur team rather than being able to solo an enemy without retaliation or much room for dashes

(mute clip probablyXD) Problem of going tank oath is that with shit teammates making agro plays is hard because 9/10 cases in soloq u will dash in and already be ahead of ur teammates like the below and if u wait big chance ull be too late and u give enemy room to breathe. Now u jump in and ur teammates decide wether they instantly followup or they play at distance. Because u are tank oath in many cases following up solo u wil lack damage and if ur team follows with u instantly using dashes x y z well its great but that wont happen many times leaving room for frustration thats instantly negated by just going double dagger.

He has a identity and playstyle but thinking logically its just easier to go damage until u get to a rank where u consistantly have teammates around u that will respond properly similarly to going dps on elluna. Fight looks bad> easier to clutch > fight looks good> u need less healing so u can make sure it doesnt go south with aggression. From my time playing supervive thats how it felt in many cases regarding hunters. Zeph is an example where its not true because ur healing might not always save people after the changes but ur cc/knockback can easily make up for it and give ur teammates a window to catch a breath or dash out more reliably

[livid warren]

More or less that's why I stopped playing tank Oath in solo queue (but still feel like tank Oath is probably the right way to go if in a stack, or at least Hybrid). Often times I would think my team is going to follow up from behind me, and my team either doesn't follow up, or follows up after I'm dead from a 1v3 (which is way worse).

You can land a perfect ult and it does nothing if you don't have damage behind it.

It's partially my fault though. I don't voice comms. I try to use pings to communicate where I'm going as much as possible, but it can be a lot to expect people to keep up with the pings.

(Sometimes teammates were in the right to not follow. Often times though, I stand by the initiations.)

[heady wigeon]

Yah and on multiple fronts of frustration ur third part perfectly slots in with "im using voice comms but my teammates wont listen to me so now im mad"

While alot of value is put in u being tanky and having a shield but if ur teammates split up, it becomes prioritizing teammates to shield> teammate whos not shielded fkcs up> it feels like shit especially if u chose the correct teammate to shield with example: stalemate at range and ur shielding ur poking teammate

[grim cloak]

Date change for this week
Will be out this Friday, so going to change catch-up time just for this week to this Thursday (same time, 3PM PST onwards.)

[dreamy swan]

plss pool party eva skin no shoes

[loud harbor]

Man yall really are gooners.

[heady wigeon]

human nature XD

[vale token]

Unfortunate but I got work on friday so cant Join the talk

Unless I go to work on 3 hours of sleep

https://tenor.com/view/jetstream-sam-my-beloved-gif-22029076

[fading mountain]

it's thursday

Which is today.

c:

[vale token]

Yeah. It would be at 1-3am for me when talk starts and got work

Im gonna say fuck it and take a nap now and join the talk I must deliver on my weekly yappuchino

[fading mountain]

ah yeah I see

[loud harbor]

So after watching the fireside chat we better be getting hudson's rework next patch. I swear, I ain't waiting months for it.

[patent lodge]

bro

LOL

You just gotta have patience

They are working on a zillion things for sure

Hudson isn't the only kit that has problems with it

[loud harbor]

Ima just say this here, i feel like it will become an actual issue.(convo this kind of came from: #🍞│general message)

Brall, jin, and oath really gotta change. Their mobility by itself feels obnoxious and is making the game actively less fun. Brall and oath both basically have infinite tools, then jin for some weird ass reason is allowed to straight up deny the most dun aspect of the game, abyss play is basically non existent when a jin is even existing nearby. Then brall and oath are allowed to 1 tap me while literally never dying. And I don't think even just turning down thwir numbers will help at all.

[patent lodge]

On top of launch that will have significant changes

[loud harbor]

Brother I've waited half a year for this shit.

[patent lodge]

You aren't the only person they are catering too

Hudson players aren't either

I understand frusration

[loud harbor]

Did I say they were?

[patent lodge]

But just setting up your own expectations of like "next patch or else" you are setting yourself up for frusration

[loud harbor]

I've waited so long I ain't waiting another 4 or 5 months. Like I just can't handle waiting anymore with how long I've already waited.

[patent lodge]

Half a year aint even that bad in the grand scheme of balance cadences. I promise you will be okay

[loud harbor]

It is to literally not even be allowed to enjoy the hunter you like. Cus it legit feels like I just csnt even play Hudson half the time. And that is especially true in solo que.

[patent lodge]

Trust the devs and give them time to cook, reworks aren't easy oin top of it because you watn to get it right. Don't want a Ryze situation (a chataceter that has been reworked like 4+ times over a decade due to how the kit hasn't fit right in the game for LoL)

[vale token]

Chill guys

https://tenor.com/view/mr-peabody-hypnotize-gif-18017563854157472082

[vale token]

Mind controlling you two to chill out

[patent lodge]

I'm big chilling, I'm just saying give the devs tiem to cook. It takes time for a rework, especially to get it right

it takes league like year+ and they are no small indie company, it will come just in due time

[vale token]

Take it to dm's if you want to argue pls

[loud harbor]

Give the devs time to cook while I'm not allowed to play what I enjoy. Like I really just ain't able to do that.

I've been waiting for a rework and it's been on the horizon for so long, the fact they finally mentioned smth about it is big.

And now I fucking need it in next patch.

And the thing is I'm not going "you have to do this" just that I really really want it and that is basically all I said...

Also like @patent lodge (sorry if you don't like @s) if something you really reqlly want might come in a week or you might be forced to wait half a year you can't tell me you wouldn't be at least somewhat pissed if you had to wait half a year for it. Like this is kind of how it is for me rn. I'm gonna be pretty pissed if it doesn't come next patch due to that fact.

[rare thicket]

She said in the fireside chat they will still be working on changes to existing hunters. New Hudson probably coming before 1.0

[livid warren]

Relevant here:

[loud harbor]

Sadge :( that makes me sadder than you can prob imagine. I can get it tho it prob isnt even close to being done, it's just very sad I'll have to wait.

[rare thicket]

it makes you sad that Hudson will get reworked sooner?

[loud harbor]

That it will take longer. Cus the othwr option is it comes next week. Cus that's kinda been an assumption ever since sfaelocked mentioned she tested the rework.

[rare thicket]

ah, I mean it is kinda sad that we wont get new content till 1.0 but I would rather have them get 1.0 right than new stuff in the mean time. You only get one shot at the offical launch.

[loud harbor]

Yes I agree. I reqlly hope they don't fuck up 1.0 cua I reqlly want this game to do well. It sucks that we won't get any new content but if it's what has to happen for them to cook 1.0 I'm fine with that

[livid warren]

Personally I was hoping for more incrementing and testing before 1.0. But, hoping for a successful general release for them.

[loud harbor]

I've been apart of a lot of their small pt they did after beta launch. So i hope I can still be apart of said playtest and test shit.

It does feel a little rushed ngl but we'll see.

[livid warren]

I mean the game has more polish and style than 95% of released products as-is. Clearly a talented team. Some bugs, whatever, to be expected of any game.

Biggest worries are that some systems still feel rough and the new player indoctrination is pretty non-existent (existing tutorial isn't great, account locking a bad bandage). Hopefully gets rectified and tested (as an NDA'd test if not to the open beta community) before general release.

[loud harbor]

Random question: what do you guys think the armory system is gonna involve or be like? I know we have literally ni info so these will just be our assumptions.

My main assumption is that it will have something to do with items.

[patent lodge]

They announced playtests sop I imagine that won't go anymore

[patent lodge]

I'll be honest, there are a lot of core bugs for hunter's that make them incredibly frustrating to play with/around and create really weird knowledge checks that imo really needs to get fixed b4 release.Def a talented team tho and love the style,direction, and themes they are going forward with : D

[loud harbor]

The game indeed does have a bunch of random knowledge checks rn. A couple examples would be double steam and being unable to glide due8ng hudson's ult. It's basically impossible to figure that stuff out yourself and is simply a random knowledge check for if you know it. The double items i think they've thought about keeping in some fashion but I feel like it is pretty unhealthy in it's current state

[drowsy ember]

Maybe it’s something like runes? Or you can remake item builds so the game does them for you?

[stray dock]

Given the amount of secrecy and emphasis on it, hopefully it's more than just premaking builds

[loud harbor]

I'm assuming it will be. I just got a feeling it's gonna be like a revamp to the item system making it mor ein depth. Ofc we have literally no clue.

[rare thicket]

It's some kinda of meta progression system so no way it's just premaking builds

[fickle tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1187315677053341788/1361720044090032390/bloggif_67fe765008223.gif

talk's today right?

ty @dusk scroll

[loud harbor]

all I want to ask rn is stuff about Hudson's rework if she can give me any info on it at all(like just what his new abilities will be like or smth like that would work for me); when will myth, brall, oath, and ghost get nerfed and probably bishop but simply my opinion the others a lot of people seem to want nerfed

[grim cloak]

I'm here!

Okay, reading.

[fickle tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1357853570296447067/1362927958741880983/itsjess.gif

(i had the gif prepped this time..)

Hi Jess! Hope things are going good after the 1.0 announcement (SUMMER????)

[quiet bridge]

happy birthday

[fickle tinsel]

happy birthday

[quiet bridge]

This group has a strong sentiment towards wishing jess a happy birthday

[loud harbor]

Hello quick request for hudson you could maybe relay to whoever is working on him, make it so we can rotate his wires with smth like the scroll wheel. Woukd be super helpful, too many times I'm literally unable to place my wires how I need them to be.

[loud harbor]

The fact it's coming in summer is indeed insane.

[fickle tinsel]

Summer is way sooner than I thought it'd be

I expected Fall/Winter

[loud harbor]

Ngl I expected spring of next year.

[grim cloak]

Dying.

[grim cloak]

We live on the edge.

[fickle tinsel]

[grim cloak]

Hahaha.

[grim cloak]

I'll share this with them!

[indigo spear]

Any changes planned for felix?

[fickle tinsel]

Something you mentioned in the Fireside Chat was updating existing hunter kits. You've mentioned Hudson, Felix, Jin and Joule in the past, anyone else come to mind, if you can share?

[rocky topaz]

Happy birthday Jess

[indigo spear]

Like something to support a hybrid playstyle with q max

[grim cloak]

Confirmed that we're working on Hudson and Joule right now (they're in progress.) Jin and Felix we're thinking about, but needs more paper design time.

My birthday........

[rocky topaz]

I do hope, for Felix, that he isn't changed too much, cause I think his base kit is great, just how his numbers are played out that feels rough

[tribal stone]

any previews 4 joule..............

[grim cloak]

Someone once calculated what my age would be given a birthday every day.

[rocky topaz]

Also Please make his spin stall his vertical momentum

Please

That's my biggest request

[grim cloak]

Yeah, I think there's Felix mains who really love him so want to respect that.

[quiet bridge]

bhop???

[rocky topaz]

RMB Rapid Fire Joule coming back???

[tribal stone]

orb ult coming bback????

[loud harbor]

With balancing, I'm wandering if you guys are gonna do anything about how myth and oath feel a little oppressive?

It's kind of the same with ghost and brall but I feel like myth and oath are way worse than ghost and brall, for both ghost and brall I somply think numbers are too high, brall does half my health with ult in his basic rmb which is kinda insane then ghost base m1 dmg without Dave imo is simply too high.

[tribal stone]

@loud harbor they confirmed today in an interview that myth and oath are geting touched

[vale token]

Ive been recently thinking a lot about antiheal and and its consequences if its made too available in supervive.
If it becomes too frequent in its current form it might start hampering the way fights play out.
How healers function
and how omni/sustain focused characters work.

[indigo spear]

I feel like his lvl4s could see some work like its all just numbers goes up basically

[fickle tinsel]

Where's the interview at? I actually missed that

[grim cloak]

Not yet, but I did talk to our marketing team about whether we'd want to share a teaser in advance. We like the idea of probably promoting these.

[tribal stone]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2441452651?t=4h24m19s

[grim cloak]

Yeah, just to summarize. Looked at Oath b-hopping, Myth Rain of Arrows.

[tribal stone]

yea if u need someone to record some new joule gameplay my dms are open no problem 🥱

[fickle tinsel]

i love eating paste

[grim cloak]

Hahah. I'm hoping you'll like some of the changes. Goal is to make her feel better, but also in a way others can respond to.

[fickle tinsel]

Also I LOVED your idea about fixing #1 community voted bugs

[grim cloak]

You have the best history books.

Why do you remember this.

[vale token]

Im surprised Joule dash isnt special cased to go through when cast and hit with cc. But still get stunned at the end of the dash

[rocky topaz]

It was my favortite Joule

[grim cloak]

Yeah, this was a team suggestion so I'm pretty excited too.

[fading mountain]

#1364934089295138836 message
I just wanted to mention this because one was.. idk it wasnt fun <.<

[loud harbor]

oh, let's fucking gooooooo. you have no idea how happy that makes me.

now i wait for brall and ghost. and maybe bishop?

[rocky topaz]

With Bouncy LMB

[grim cloak]

I'll take a look!

[loud harbor]

with her rain i kinda feel like her base m1 dmg needs to go down. it doing 500 dmg feels way too high. i get that's full charge but that's still insane

[vale token]

ngl you sound like you are never satisfied

[grim cloak]

Ohhh, this footage is actually helpful. I had a version of this someone else was trying to repro for me and we couldn't quite understand what was going on.

[loud harbor]

fair ngl. shit just feels mega overtuned to me tbh

[indigo spear]

There is also the eva orb bug

[fickle tinsel]

this one is pretty annoying

but only matters on like 3 hunters

[grim cloak]

Looked at Jin and Brall. The Ghost and Bishop mentions seem a little too outsized compared to how they're performing, so we're talking about it, but clips would help.

[fickle tinsel]

still would love it fixed

[grim cloak]

What's the Eva orb bug you're talking about?

[loud harbor]

oh yea also, what're yall's thoughts on eva? like her healing has been a pretty big topic since it got the 50% buff

[fickle tinsel]

Her orb can LoS abilities

like celeste R

[loud harbor]

it can block some abilities like a wall

[fickle tinsel]

https://discord.com/channels/852642429105995786/1363000741790482482

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1363000741790482482/1364699942517604362/Eva_Felix.mp4?ex=680bf0dd&is=680a9f5d&hm=29ede4aa228790d3a53e96dbc76302bb83e747544b8f8e1e04974d38592921a1&

[rocky topaz]

Ghost is alos just the most popular hunter in the game

[indigo spear]

Until people start abusing it and figuring out how to block other stuff

[grim cloak]

Gotcha, thanks for the clip.

[vale token]

I feel this entire thing is caused by antiheal being so common. Cus everyone says "Its fine cus antiheal" is a thing.
But what if it didnt have to be a thing and she was killable without antiheal?

[fickle tinsel]

not what I meant, I think it literally only affects Celeste R, Felix Q and Ghost RMB in terms of hunter kits

unless I'm missing something

[vale token]

Im on a crusade against antiheal. I feel it might become a problem later down the line.

[fickle tinsel]

any AoE ability that can be blocked by LoS

[loud harbor]

i can honestly see that. since whenever i mention her healing being too high i get told "anti heal exist so it's fine" which to me is kind of a dumb reason.

i do feel like they kind of gotta change anti heal, not sure if just making it not 100% is truly the play

[indigo spear]

I saw someone mentioning crysta q being blocked but didnt see a clip of it

[fickle tinsel]

i tried stuff like shiv R and void R but they're unaffected by LoS I think

that's possible

lemme give it a go

actually wait i can't rn lol

😔

[vale token]

You should have read the thing. I brought up alternatives

[loud harbor]

i should've i just didn't feel like it at the time tbh

[vale token]

Bro still answered and just said the thing I mentioned in it 😭

[loud harbor]

i read the tldr if that means anything

[grim cloak]

Just got word we have the fix to the Eva orb bug.

[fickle tinsel]

Awesome

Very glad to hear that

[grim cloak]

That was wild timing.

[loud harbor]

W

just wandering but is eva's healing gonna take a hit or just be left untouched? i don't think it's the biggest issue in the world but she does have insanly high healing.

[tribal stone]

i havent heard too much bishop complaints, but for me personally ghost nade feels like an "all or nothing" ability. where if it hits it on you, even without a wall stun, most of the time (80-90%+) you get LMB'd from 100-0

[livid warren]

Are there any plans to revisit the hunter's journey changes?

Not trying to be superfluous or pedantic bringing it up here, given I'm sure devs have eyes on that massive feedback thread at this point (and it has already been discussed in this thread), but given how much discussion that thread is attracting, seems worth mentioning. I'm sure there's a lot of people interested in if there's any updates on it.

[tribal stone]

and it seems like its way too easy to hit from my exp fighting ghosts

in organized play, ghost seems decent. in solo queue, he's a monster to have to push

[quiet bridge]

i also wanna hear what the thoughts are on the hunters journey

[loud harbor]

i feel like bishop will be the next hunter with a bunch of complaints after the current ones are dealt with tbh.

[grim cloak]

She's honestly still really low on the winrate side of things, so while I don't want to weigh that input entirely, I'm not super sure we should tune it immediately.

[indigo spear]

Another bug that comes to mind is felix shooting bungee lower than other hunters

[grim cloak]

Definitely doing better than before. But she was struggling for a while for sure.

[quiet bridge]

I think if the plan is not to just remove it then I feel theres a disconnect between what you guys are seeing and whats publicly visible for all of brand new players feedback, existing players feedback, and the feedback given in threads - so I think it would be good to hear what you guys have taken on from what you've heard to understand whats happening

[indigo spear]

And the main complaints i see about bishop are about her losing her identity as an initiator to be more like a poke hunter

[quiet bridge]

obviously what we see might well be biased and you guys see more feedback than we possibly can, and maybe have done focus groups on newer players to test it or some kinda A/B testing? So it would be good to know if theres some unheard majority who like the changes

[grim cloak]

There's a few adjustments I want to talk about with the team. We're seeing true new players retain better during this period, so not sure if it's the account unlocks or something else (and it's more confirmed it's not due to Eva.)

Mentioned this on stream, but I do think there were players who probably got caught in the twilight zone of starting the game, then getting reset which probably felt bad. Talked about it some with the crew - maybe there's something we can do there? But yeah, that's the primary case.

The second case I'm thinking about is how the unlocks are ordered. Daily Missions/Weekly Missions/Execute being the main nodes I'm thinking about.

[tribal stone]

those are also the big 3 i saw and felt confused why they were even in there

[quiet bridge]

appreciate hearing this

[grim cloak]

Yeah, for sure.

[grim cloak]

Interesting. What changes are driving that feeling right now?

[indigo spear]

The rmb lvl4 change and the lmb buffs i believe

[rocky topaz]

I personally would love for Bishop to move away from doing as much damage, Bishops coolest part was never her damage to me

[fickle tinsel]

I really wanted to get into Bishop because I thought her initiation gameplay would be cool but she felt really poke-y to me yeah

[rocky topaz]

I mean, you can play her initiator, the pokey version is just the lame meta way to play her

lol

I play her like a bruiser and am still able to perform

[fickle tinsel]

true but i feel a lot of her kit feels mish-mashed when trying to play her like that

[indigo spear]

One thing that might be contributing to that is how bad helmets feel

[rocky topaz]

I use her RMB for movement and to catch enemies trying to escape, either keep them close, or get me close, that is the type of stuff that makes bishop so cool, her ability to control combat

[fickle tinsel]

Hmmm maybe I'm just overlooking it

Possible skill issue on my part

I think I just like melee hunters more and it felt weird for me to go into melee but also play as a ranged character

[grim cloak]

(Separate from Bishop) One other thing about Account unlocks for Executes that I was outdated on stream. Technically, if you buy an Execute you can unlock them and use them immediately. Share the word for now.

Okay, back to Bishop.

[patent lodge]

Hey Jess (and everyone )! Hope everyone is doing good today!

I was just curious if there was any type of goal that can be shared about lvl 4's and 1.0? What I more specifically mean by this is will we see hunter's with new one's or just expanding upon the current Hunter's lvl 4's? (sorry if this is a hard question/not asked well!)

[rocky topaz]

That's great to hear lol

[grim cloak]

Hahah, yeah.

[indigo spear]

Whats your build for that?

[potent tendon]

Just passing by: keep up the good work, you're the best and hoping for the best

[grim cloak]

Bishop's one of those weird ones where she was underperforming a lot for a while. But heard on maybe that muddying identity.

[loud harbor]

ight, i don't think it's as much of an issue as i did before(referring to a thread about nerfing her healing i spoke in for way too long). but sometmes it feels like she allows her whole team to literally ignore my damage if i don't got any sort of anti heal.

[indigo spear]

Tbh i fell like some of the hunters have an identity problem

[rocky topaz]

Swiftblade Vive infuser punch max

[dusk scroll]

hello there, today i'm in a good mood after watching the latest SV video and getting arenas QoL respond

what's the subject so far ?

[loud harbor]

the only hunters i can see this with are joule and saros

[rocky topaz]

Will go into what I think about bishop in a sec, in a match

[patent lodge]

Bishop identity mainly but jumping around

[grim cloak]

Got it.

[indigo spear]

Like felix is marked as an frontliner but the optimal play is to go double dagger and rmb max while you have to be super aware of positioning because once u go in there is no coming back

[indigo spear]

Thx gonna try that later

[fickle tinsel]

well on the bright side it looks like felix is being checked up on

just a little bit more time

[indigo spear]

Any tips on how to play with that playstyle?

[fickle tinsel]

but yes would love to see him play more hybrid/tank

[patent lodge]

Or just even roles have identity problem like how Protectors best way of "supporting" is through raw damage then utility/healing/cc (at least how it feels to me)

[potent tendon]

Tanklix gaming

[indigo spear]

Im also glad to hear that

[tidal trench]

had a few friends end up in that 'twilight zone' and it took a LOT of convincing to get them to stick to the game. I'm all for giving players time to adjust to new mechanics but it felt pretty bad to see them unable to interact with some parts of the game (powers, item slots, ranked) until dozens of matches later.

[patent lodge]

Zeph best build=vacuum max.
Elluna usually tries to duel in 1v1's with stacking LMB's.
Eva just stat checks people while inside orb and if not just dies

[grim cloak]

Still going to focus on Hudson and Joule first, just to be clear. (And we've talked about Felix and Jin some.)

I'll for sure take Bishop thoughts, but just want to set expectations on ordering.

[indigo spear]

I think some number tweaks on his scalings and some love to his lvl4s could fix it

[grim cloak]

Yeah, for sure. Found that to be the most awkward part of it.

[dusk scroll]

i'm working on a new part for the learning tab, "status"

As a way to learn what status like "cremation" and "grounded" does

I know a lot of players and myself included discoverd what some status actually after many hours. And sadly some hunters don't cover this enough to fully understand.

just some visuals, of course

[fickle tinsel]

@patent lodge had a moment the other day not knowing about the "last player cremates wisps on knock" thing

there's a lot of obscure knowledge checks

[patent lodge]

And some of them are because of very specific bugs that just feel weird 😭. Praying things like that get focus

[indigo spear]

Ok nice

While we are at it, what you guys think of hunter roles?

[grim cloak]

We fix a bunch of bugs, but this is also why I think putting some of the prioritization in the community's hands will be interesting for me to see. Haha.

[quiet bridge]

I think i'm still not a fan of the colour scheme I picked for the roles in the wiki ;;; 5 is quite a lot of roles

[fickle tinsel]

Actually I'm a bit late on talking about bugs, but I'd also like to call out a pretty annoying Felix bug: https://discord.com/channels/852642429105995786/1363287715801595934

I think this is a bug exclusively on Felix, I haven't been able to replicate it on other hunters on any terrain I know susceptible to it

[drowsy ember]

Will you be reintroducing the hunter release cadence after 1.0 drops? I think one thing that definitely helps the game feel more diverse is a more fleshed out character roster. Especially more front-liners and supports

[grim cloak]

Think Hunter roles as helpful, light guidance on what kinds of Hunters you might enjoy playing. Hunters have more agency in general though, so they're going to be more flexible than some roster-based games.

[tidal trench]

somewhat unrelated, but while teaching new players I realized how crazy lethal the game is. The time to kill is so short that a lot of my friends deaths could be boiled down to 'you stood in that spot for 1 second too long' and instantly got popped.

[fickle tinsel]

I think Initiator is kind of a redundant role in the grand scheme of things

[tidal trench]

spikes are one thing, but i'm talking straight up damage threats

[drowsy ember]

also keep up the great work I’m super excited for 1.0 this game has been my new addiction for awhile!

[quiet bridge]

yea initiator and frontliner are like.. the same role no?

[grim cloak]

Even when we were on League, we'd always wring our hands on - whether a character was truly an X, Y, Z. Val takes a more open-ended approach. Would say we're closer to that.

[drowsy ember]

I’m also very excited for all the polish and bug fixes

[grim cloak]

Nice, glad to hear it.

[patent lodge]

I was just curious if there was any type of goal that can be shared about lvl 4's and 1.0? What I more specifically mean by this is will we see hunter's with new one's or just expanding upon the current Hunter's lvl 4's? (sorry if this is a hard question/not asked well!)

[vale token]

Maybe hudsons heals finally work with items

[grim cloak]

What I'll at least say is - we're still working on a Hunter a month internally, and those Hunters will come in quick succession on 1.0.

[rocky topaz]

So for Bishop:

Her kit does not need any mechanical changes, want to get that out there right away, if anything, maybe bring back some impulse on her LMB, the thing I miss about bishop, when I first started I fell in love with bishop because the big thing with her was getting these big punches, making these huge plays, manipulating a team so you can outplay them, not just out damaging them. I think that Bishop works best when she has a BUNCH of tools to manipulate how a fight works, her punch, her ult, her dash, her RMB, but they don't all do an insane ammount of damage. To me, Bishop should not be an assasin, that's allready filled by a bunch of other hunters. I love her for her completely unique way of aproaching fights, unique way of instigating and handeling fights, not just cause "Oh me do big damage" but rather becasue I do a really cool play with all of her kit.

Bishop works best when her whole kit has ways to influence not only herself but her enemies on a constant scale, and not when she is deleting enemies in an instant, I REALLY want her to go back toward that chaos bringer that I really fell in love with as a kit.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk, there will be no pamphlets handed out.

[loud harbor]

just wanna mention this cus it's mega annoying on hudson with verticality being his main survivability.

sometimes you get spiked from way higher than what would normally be possible. there's no red orb and you're way higher than the person yet it still spikes. hudson lives off of being miles in the sky and this bug really effects him. was mentioned in a feedback post a while back but kinda got pushed to the side by most people.

and on the topic of hudson, sometimes his dash just cancels. it feels just as bad as celeste's dash bug when it forces you to dash full distance.

[grim cloak]

We may explore more level 4 updates, but I think we're really interested in getting the Armory right. It's a pretty substantive update, so would rather focus all of our energy in making sure the content works well and feels intentional than spreading ourselves across multiple systems.

[rocky topaz]

Sorry for the massive dump Jess <3

[grim cloak]

You're good!

[patent lodge]

Makes sense, appreciate the response and really looking forward (as always) to what yall are cooking

[rocky topaz]

I do hope it makes sense that I am talking about

[indigo spear]

I can see that
I just dont like it sometimes because it sets expectations on what that hunter should do or not

[frosty leaf]

Hi I normally don't talk here but in the future could there be a way to let us test skins before buying them?

[fickle tinsel]

The Armory seems like a big update with how much it's hyped and how little we know about it

👀

[grim cloak]

It does. I'll share the sentiment with the team - it's tough to balance her honestly, but I appreciate it.

[indigo spear]

Like with oath being this tank that can actially one shot you and bhop around

[rocky topaz]

Glad to be of servicec

She is super important to me, and hearing she is played as an RMB bot right now in comp hurts my soul

[grim cloak]

I don't recall if the Wiki covers this too, but this would be great there if not.

[dusk scroll]

To me Bishop would feel better to face if :

• RMB nade deals close to no damage but knockback more both Bishop and her enemies

• Punch deals more damage

• Ult cd is way higher but get reduced if it hits a target.

• reduce LMB damage

[loud harbor]

i honestly miss her old rmb level 4, had way more skill and class to it

[fickle tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/gato-anotado-noted-noted-gato-noted-cat-gif-15232071836705052766

[rocky topaz]

I DO NOT miss her Old RMB lol

Oh

[fickle tinsel]

major that swiftblade vive infusor build

you're cooking

[rocky topaz]

LMB lvl 4

lol

[fickle tinsel]

need to try that

[loud harbor]

i do seem to be alone in missing it cus most bishop players seem to not miss it

[rocky topaz]

Shift to lvl 3 first, then max punch :)

[fickle tinsel]

that sounds so fun

[grim cloak]

Hahah. You see nothing. Mystery.

[rocky topaz]

I liked it, but it led to a lot of 1 shot Combo's which was kinda lame

[loud harbor]

i'd prefer that over infinite poke and crazy movemnt

[drowsy ember]

I’m honestly interested in knowing what yall learned from open beta launch and what is planned to retain player during the official launch. Idk if you’re able to talk much about it or go into detail but as someone who loves this game I’m just hoping players can get as hooked as I am. I do think a lot of the systems now are way better than release but I still feel like a proper tutorial needs to be in place to help with a lot of the initial burden of knowledge when first playing.

I’ll be plugging the game hard when 1.0 drops!

[rocky topaz]

That being said @grim cloak I do think Bishop should not be top priority, Jin Joule hudson Felix should definitely be looked at first

[vale token]

Ill wait and see if to plug it to friends. They have a semi negative perception of the game

[rocky topaz]

Also.... please nerf ghost :L

[drowsy ember]

I think the game is pretty different than it was when open beta first dropped so I think returning players might enjoy it more

[tribal stone]

i think a power shift in ghost from his nade to something else (ult? dash? idk) would feel very good

[vale token]

I would like if he was more about cycling abilities

And not as much lmb rmb lmb 👍

[grim cloak]

Appreciate it. Yeah, I agree.

[fickle tinsel]

can't believe we're talking about 1.0 as if it's right around the corner

[raw brook]

NOT MY ELO POTION

[fickle tinsel]

brings me back to the road to open beta

[grim cloak]

Appreciate the sentiment. Think we've covered this topic in previous videos head-on - I probably won't go too much more into this given that.

Have mentioned this here and there, but we're in the process of updating the tutorial now.

[grim cloak]

We've been feeling this all the time.

Lol.

[indigo spear]

I have one more question: what happened with the visual updates from the roadmap?

[raw brook]

As someones whose played a lot of ghost in past week(did my masters to legend climb with him), i will say that ghosts is rewarded way too much for hitting spike grenades. Both direct stick and wall threaten a 100-0 which feels exceedingly binary. While ghost is a m1 focused character hitting a low risk spell and auto winning with m1 is pretty boring. I would personally like to see the expose damage nerfed. If hes too weak as a result, i think his other spells can use some love, both laser and ult are rather underwhelming atm especially with how mana operates

[fickle tinsel]

I bet, excitement and anxiety for sure

[dusk scroll]

quick question : Can we expect more hunter balance this incoming patch ?

[rocky topaz]

I feel like Ghost has barely any skill exprtession rn playing against

[dusk scroll]

(like Oath B-HOP removal maybe )

[raw brook]

Ghosts usual burst mag trade pattern with his laser and dash is very skill expressive, but that all goes out the window when he hits nade

You just want to land any bullets possible

[grim cloak]

Yes.

[raw brook]

And with how mana is in his kit, you dont want to press laser, just dash and nades

[indigo spear]

There was mention to rain of arrows and oath bhop at the tom kick interview

[grim cloak]

Don't tell anyone.

Shhh.

[vale token]

Im just panicking because of what Safelocked said last week about antiheal.

What happens to my poor hudson if antiheal becomes a thing that hits me every single fight

[grim cloak]

We don't have any current anti-heal plans just yet, so you're safe for now.

[floral flame]

Yo. Always appreciate the time spent here. Jess you’re the GOAT. Carry on.

[raw brook]

Too easy for how much reward you can get out of him rn

[grim cloak]

Appreciate you.

[raw brook]

Im really glad you guys are taking the route to look harder and balancing and stability leading up to 1.0

[fickle tinsel]

I love this direction too

[raw brook]

Very very excited for full release

[grim cloak]

Ghost nerfs...I'll whisper them so folks can tell me why that's a terrible idea later. Haha.

[quiet bridge]

I'll chime in
https://supervive.wiki.gg/wiki/Glossary
It exists
There is a lot of inconsistency in the game itself though how things are actually referred to - e.g. sometimes something is a push? Others its an impulse? Some spikes are impulses down, etc. Destruction damage is sometimes explosive damage? Or maybe all those tooltips have been fixed by now, not sure
theres also lots of very similar terms which aren't the same like "unhealable" is different to "anti-heal" because unhealable includes food, but someone might reasonably expect are the same
This list has notoriously been incredibly difficult to maintain

[rocky topaz]

The thing about Ghost right now, he is not fun to fight, like Myth

They are both in the same vein

[dusk scroll]

getting nade lmb 100-0 gg

[raw brook]

I dont think ghost and myth cause the same frustration tbh

[tribal stone]

i want to add that -- ghost has been a problem for at least a couple patches now. it's not a new thing, i and other players have had this sentiment well before the current balance patch

[fickle tinsel]

Yeah I think Ghost is more frustrating than Myth right now

[tribal stone]

in different ways

[raw brook]

They do drastically diff frustrating things

[tribal stone]

myth defines fight macro overall with rain
ghost defines 1v1s with nade

[fickle tinsel]

^

[drowsy ember]

I like ghost for a lot of reasons but his strength is def too high

[raw brook]

Ghost “outplays” you with 1 spell

[upbeat spade]

Buff Joule, Nerf Ghost/Myth/Oath

[grim cloak]

Ghost nerfs... .... ....

[loud harbor]

he literally would never run a vamp item in that case.

[drowsy ember]

He has actual build diversity and his kit is so solid

But his dmg could go down a tad

[raw brook]

Agree every ghost player i talk to thinks his build is diff

Which is really cool

[fickle tinsel]

I DON'T HEAR ENOUGH CHEERING FROM THE CROWD! LOUDER EVERYONE!

[raw brook]

What other hunter has this many builds

[grim cloak]

Hahaha.

[fickle tinsel]

/j

[crisp iron]

Ghost defo feels odd right now to play. He's so good at being mobile and short trading with m1 and it feels REALLY good. He's finally the run and gun battlemage! But it's to a point now where his rmb and q don't really feel very well integrated into the kit anymore. He doesn't need them to be functional, they're just kind of there. Which is a stark contrast to when I first picked him up back in NextFest where his grenade was necessary to him functioning at all.

Also his passive still feels very weird and like it doesn't fit thematically or gameplay wise on his kit at all.

Just wanted to share my thoughts as I'm starting to pick him up again after a couple months.

[grim cloak]

It's about time for me to jet - need to get back to work.

But I'll note the Ghost... nerfs....

[raw brook]

I do agree his passive feels really out of place and this new run and gun m1 shift is really really fun. His laser is too slow to fit in that kit imo, same with the lengthy nade delay, but nade makes him exceedingly overtuned

[fickle tinsel]

uh oh

[loud harbor]

they both got an ability where if you get hit you kinda just die. myth is worse cus she has other issues than just that. they both imo have the problem of not enough downtime

[tribal stone]

maybe compensatory buffs as well! i totally believe you that overall, he is underperforming

[fickle tinsel]

Much love, thanks for the chat Jess! Always good, looking forward to see what you guys are cooking

[fickle tinsel]

yeah maybe more adjustments and less nerf

adjusting to be less frustrating i think is the overall sentiment

[upbeat spade]

I think his passive is great and makes a lot of sense for his archetype just he has so much damage

[dusk scroll]

i think most of us don't especially wants a ghost nerf, more a switch in his power budget. rn it's too much in the spike nade and it's make fights binary

[grim cloak]

Oh, I didn't say that. He's doing fine.

[drowsy ember]

Yeah it’s cool he can actually use a bunch of the items and they impact his playstyle

[grim cloak]

There were just higher priorities when we were looking at the roster.

Down to take a look.

Ghost ... adjustments ...

[raw brook]

More so because you dont like pressing some of your abiltiies

If that makes sense

[grim cloak]

Anyway, I actually really do gotta jet. Appreciate y'all.

[fickle tinsel]

JESS WHAT ARE YOU HINTING AT I'M SCARED

😭

jkjk

see ya!

[raw brook]

Ghost actually doesnt enjoy pressing q rn

Or ult

Which makes stacking passive awkward

[loud harbor]

sadge. byebye

[surreal ivy]

Ghost is clearly getting adjusted to be an actual ghost

[raw brook]

If his other damaging spells were better integrated into his kit maybe it would fit more

[fickle tinsel]

true

[raw brook]

But on ghost your primary gameplay is moving in and out with shift

[quiet bridge]

ghost buff make him extra spooky on halloween

[surreal ivy]

Instantly dies if someone activates Priest power within a certain distance

[raw brook]

Ghost nerfs in question…. Carbine release causing all ghost abusers to play a diff mobile gun character

[patent lodge]

Thank you for your time as always, have a wonderful day!

[rocky topaz]

Ghost Nerf, start calling him Major again

[tribal stone]

is that your namesake

[vale token]

Im genuinely a little concerned about "introducing anti heal at a roster wide level"
Anti is (in its current form) quite uninteractive. It often doesnt feel like the enemies intentionally save their anti for heals. it just gets thrown at the person who got caught. And then they explode even if there was a support next to them because anti. As a heal character enjoyer it really doesnt feel good to have my gameplan stripped away from random abilities that would get thrown at me in any case.

And if antiheals become more common it might cause fights to just become about who got antied and who didnt.

Also there is this idea where the existance of 100% anti might make it so supports get out of hand

If anti is common that means healers/supports have a hard time keeping allies alive. Which means to be viable you have to buff other places from them or make their heals very high so they win when not antied.

[rocky topaz]

Nah, my name is from HIMYM

[vale token]

Word vommit sorry

[rocky topaz]

There was a single patch he was called Major

[vale token]

Sounds terrifying

[surreal ivy]

Im genuinely a little concerned about "introducing anti heal at a roster wide level"
Honestly same, unless it also means that antiheal being super common also results in antiheal duration being super short and/or less than 100%, in which case it's maybe OK.

[vale token]

Then they would actually work as "heal parries"

And not "got hit with a stray debuff. Stay down for the next 5 seconds you filthy heal addict"

[surreal ivy]

Even then, though, my concern is that there would still be a super-long-lasting source of antiheal that lasts that long purely to be "different".

[vale token]

I dont mind conditional anties like "stay in this area and get antied" or very short duration ones

[surreal ivy]

I will always uphold that antiheal being 100% reduction is itself the problem and no adjustments to the duration or increases to the availability of antiheal will fix that; antiheal only "needs" to be 100% because healing needs to be large because the TTK is super fast.
Slow the baseline TTK down literally at all and suddenly healing doesn't need to be as large and thus antiheal doesn't need to be 100%.

[quiet bridge]

does anyone wanna hear my hot take for combat in the game

[livid warren]

To this point, in Battlerite, the TTK was way longer. I dunno if that's better or worse objectively (Battlerite combat remains best in the genre to me, but the game ultimately failed and I could see the slower more methodical teamfighting being less appealing).

[quiet bridge]

its spicy I promise

[vale token]

I personally dont think healing Needs to be too strong in vive. To me heals exist to delay the inevitavle NOT deny it.

Since ttk is short that little time heals extend your life might feel very impactful

[blazing pecan]

Yes....

[surreal ivy]

Slower TTK doesn't need to go as far as Battlerite, just "slower than literally instant".

[blazing pecan]

I may want to hear it....

[vale token]

You and I have basically the same end goal in mind but different approaches

[surreal ivy]

NOT deny it.
Which is exactly what dedicated healing has done in SV when it was particularly strong e.x. Zeph healing from a few months ago.

[quiet bridge]

I think the baseline mobility should be everyone gets 2 charges of dash / 2 dashes (Some characters who already have an extra dash may go above this, but not a flat +1 to everyone in the cast)
I think all abilities (maybe except ultimates) should have a different version for when cast on ground and when cast in the air - with the air version mostly focused more on the CC effects and the ground versions mostly focused on the damaging effects
I think hitslow should be significantly more impactful - mostly just lasting 2-3x as long, and dashes should make you immune to hitslow while you're dashing
I think air friction should go down slightly
I think cast times and self-slow should go up across the board slightly

[surreal ivy]

yeah, you weren't lying, that's pretty spicy all things considered.

[raw brook]

Oh one other direction to nerfing ghost is possible: due to his short range maybe nerfing his damage would end up feeling pretty bad. But ghost getting 500 heal on knock + his high vamp makes a lot of situation really ridiculous

[vale token]

I do partially agree with some of that. I expected spicier

[upbeat spade]

Heal on knock and it's consequences

[tribal stone]

ghsot def feels like a 250hp knock hero

for sure

no doubt

same w myth

[vale token]

And now eva to some extent.
Like anti kinda just feels like an over reaction to a numbers problem. And now its so ingrained into the game no one pats an eye

[livid warren]

One thing that made Battlerite's TTK much longer is that ultimate abilities were locked behind energy (a resource which was generated from hitting normal abilities).

I think one thing that really makes the TTK so fast in SV is that everyone can just dump their ult on a pick (roster-dependent) and then win the ensuing 3v2.

Might be another avenue to consider lowering the TTK (and the subsequent heal/anti-heal situation). As a bonus, you actually feel like you earned your ult cast in Battlerite.

[rocky topaz]

That sounds like a fighting game, you really have become SF6 pilled

[surreal ivy]

Like anti kinda just feels like an over reaction to a numbers problem.
That's what it felt like it was when it first got added, since it got added at around the same time that OG Zeph got nerfed into oblivion for having overtuned healing.

[quiet bridge]

nothing about this is like a fighting game LOL

[raw brook]

Honestly ghost was not that good until the heal on knock

And things went off the rails

[rocky topaz]

The hitstun, different moves in the air and on the ground, charges of dash

That is platform fighter 101

[vale token]

Imo the argument "thats why we have anti heal" doesnt really hold value since what if we didnt and heals where just reasonable.

[heady wigeon]

Since Zeph was the only champ i could see myself enjoy longterm and or otp i want to add this in here while being unbiased and considerate of both new and experienced players on both sides of the arguement.

Remove zeph bhop slow, make the bhop not a thoughtless muscle memory mechanic like it was "lmb/jump/glide" but make your glide speed after bhop dependant on the execution of the lmb. So u cant get consistant max speed bhop by just doing the same exact timing over and over. If u want to bhop around corner maybe make it so that the more speed you have decided to go for on your next bhop the less turn radius you get on your next glide. Now someone even if perfecting the timing and muscle memory for various speeds wants to endlessly run wherever it may be they will be slower still, punished when actually messing it up which is more likely, and rewarded for being smart with where you decide to go. If u guys can make none of this make sense for him then a more straight forward nerf could simple be no glide during consecutive bhops or something like that.

With the above mechanic this could also work in zeph having to rely on either dashing + gliding or bhops without it. Choosing wrong directions or not thinking ahead properly could land u in a bhop streak close to abyss and "maybe" because u bhopped 10 times yet havent yet escaped entirely you are now on a no glide timer. I think theres many ways to make zeph bhop more fair, rewarding and more punishable without it just being a simple slow that makes it not fun for zeph + u can no longer do a simple warmup drill or move around for fun either. This is at the same time also a way to add a good amount of depth and decision making to his kit that is not straight forward yet not required for the average or new player to pick up. = 1vX potential due to being smart with your kit and not because your healing/damage/cc stats are high.

To end, versus the average player currently the slow doesnt even matter but it does kill fun yet delivers no real difference. I can simply bhop then use dash then bhop etc. But it requires little to no thinking on my side and for the noob to average player learning x y z it will still feel like im untouchable. With the above it would be visually more easy to spot aswell that when im bhopping im not gliding, when im gliding im not bhopping. So again this is a "as u get higher up the ranks" potentially added knowledge check to help play better against zephs, while zephs who are trying to master it will end up making many mistakes along the way which should have the end product be balanced although favoured towards the zeph player if absolutely mastered.

Thank you this is my one and only / final suggestion or request and right now the only thing that would make me feel like playing since there are no other champs that replace the depth zephs kit can bring for me. And happy birthday x2

big bible bangarang

[vale token]

Anti heal seems to counter the random outlier where heals out pace damage. But if that wasnt the case in the first place why would you need anti heal?

[quiet bridge]

yea i agree

I think zeph's base movespeed should be slower again tho

in the past he had bhop but was very slow

but with high movespeed + bhop he's a bit of a menace

[rocky topaz]

I really do not agree with that sentiment, a character should not be balanced so tech is the best way to play them. It does not feel good for newer players

[quiet bridge]

really only in a very surface level way
The impacts of these are entirely to promote depth of combat through giving you stronger ways to control getting popped to address TTK without ruining how low TTK is required in a BR
They do this through amplifying the "schmoovement" gameplay the game already has
the only way it is related to platform fighters is in the same way that Loki was always schmoovement

[heady wigeon]

new players dont need to use it to be competitive

[quiet bridge]

Literally all characters are balanced around using their kit well

[heady wigeon]

Thats the entire point

U could kinda compare it to a noob shrike not aiming properly and tracking targets. This is a simple level mechanic/part of her kit thats not explained as in u should be flicking or trying to confuse enemies of where u aim. But as u get more experience on the champ it either clicks or u get taught. Does that mean that versus noobs or players of your skill you are without it useless? No

[quiet bridge]

and I also don't think this disproportionately affects newer players super badly, movespeed and this kinda mobility tends to affect low elo players much weaker than high elo players

[rocky topaz]

using the kit well, and using/abusing tech are not the same thing

[tribal stone]

usualyl the devs are unaware of tech and dont balance around it

[heady wigeon]

This makes it so its no longer "abuseable"

[tribal stone]

devs generally, not TC exclusively

[quiet bridge]

Vuli's suggestion is just not what you're implying here tho

[rocky topaz]

The issue is, when tech completely identifies a character and controls their identity

[quiet bridge]

????

[heady wigeon]

Idk xD

I think im very fair in trying to consider newer players etc

[vale token]

Spiderman marvel rivals. Has so much tech that they keep balancing around.

[heady wigeon]

Like the jin ult from abyss launching u into the air or w/e that was

[rocky topaz]

I know it isn't but when you are speaking of Zephs power in the perspective of his tech, and his abuse of said tech, it's not really healthy for the rest of the balance of the character.

[heady wigeon]

So would u like me to add takes about the rest of his kit?

[tribal stone]

i mean jin lmb movement also 100% was not considered i feel like

like as a raw rotational thing

permanent

[vale token]

I wish hudson was balanced around his 1.7kdmg 1 frame burst combo

[rocky topaz]

It's like Jin LMB over the abyss, it is really the only think talked about for his balance now, like none of the rest of his kit.

[rocky topaz]

I feel like that's more of an exploit, if it's like an animation cancel thing

[heady wigeon]

Jin actually felt fair to me in terms of his lmb. And ive had many situations where ive confused jin players into holding their lmb longer = fkcng up theri dash

Its a mindgame thing to buy urself time to get abilities up or w/e

[quiet bridge]

I think theres an important distinction in this between "new players", "casual players" and "players who can't / struggle to execute"

[heady wigeon]

Maybe not every part of his movement is fair idk im not a jin main but the lmb was fine to me

[vale token]

They actually buffed a few techs he had and removed one that was too strong

[quiet bridge]

you are absolutely allowed to bias against players who struggle to execute things on a character

[vale token]

Groot in marvel rivals has a animation cancel burst combo
I think captain america is completely balanced around knowing the Lmb Shift animation cancells

I dont think its too far fetched to balance around tech/animation cancels

Or change them

[livid warren]

I think Rivals is a hard game to draw metrics about successful mechanics from.

It's a successful game, but it was perfectly poised to be a successful game with the Marvel IP + Blizzard being clinically incapable of maintaining their monopoly on the hero shooter genre.

With the success comes people who will promote the game, create content for it, propagate how to play it, permeate the tech, etc.

[vale token]

I love groot animation cancels. And the twerk tech

[livid warren]

It doesn't mean that relying on and balancing around obscure tech is "right". Just that they can, at least, get away with it because they have Marvel jiggle physics.

[heady wigeon]

Im kinda also someone who is so self focussed and on what i could learn that i dont care about characters being broken or w/e when playing i just try to find a way around it. Which does make it easy for me to come up with reasoning or suggestions for how to make x y z fair. As in multiple bhops = multiple seconds of not glidingor simply move speed while gliding nerf based on charge time + radius or w/e. Idm if its a bit more favoured towards the zeph ye or no. I care about the mechanic thats unique and to me fits the character as his lmb even looks like wind gusts so if anything he is the kinda character to allow and enhance it on. Oath on the other hand i think it doesnt fit. If i mained oath id say the exact same is part of what im argueing here. I think a simple stacking slow just limits potential and currently while attempting to for the majority of playerbase fix the issue it in reality doesnt. While in the higher ranks zeph players more likely than not feel similar to me in that its not gonna hurt lower/newer players but can add depth and increase skill ceiling to both zeph and the players against him.

[vale token]

I just want antiheal to be discussed more widely. I am on an Anti anti-heal crusade

Also cant really talk much on tech in vive cus my characters tech is often detrimental to himself

[heady wigeon]

ANd they are primarily targeting casual audience i heard but they also want competitiveness and depth etc. So adding skill ceiling without it being unfair or harfmul to lower/newer players seems like the perfect middle ground to me. No silver to diamond players is going to master this and just abuse noobs for fun. There is too much thought required for them to consitantly while fighting and trying to learn everything else do it correctly. It bases of having existing knowledge and adding an extension of the character on top of it to increase your potential

[rocky topaz]

Oh, had no idea lol, I guess he is designed around his tech

[heady wigeon]

Time to queue league, ill pray in meantime :)

[livid warren]

Oath's only real tech is his b-hop, which I feel like is fine on a conceptual level (not a balancing level), but it would be good to explain to players what exactly a b-hop is (because it's broader than just Oath).

(Which is to say, more elaborate tutorial.)

[vale token]

His overhead upper cut got removed but his web shooter B-hop thing basically every good spiderman uses got buffed

[livid warren]

I guess you could also argue Oath shield-seizuring for rampage/interweaver is also tech.

[vale token]

Though the overhead/upper cut cancell was toxic as hell while the b hop is hard to do

[rocky topaz]

TBH I think the difference for that is that Spiderman is really meant to be a super complex hard character with those combo's Zeph is a support who is supposed to be easier to pick up, but when his power budget is locked behind a hard to pull of tech that is not innately known, I do not think that is well designed balance and is not healthy for a game.

[vale token]

I guess..

[rocky topaz]

Like, I think that Zeph's B-Hop is cool, and is definitely an important part of his identity, but when you are trying to balance him around a specific tech that is not a part of his base kit, it feels like a very specific thing is pulling people toward the character that is not his base kit, but rather a niche use of a small part of his kit. IDK, but to me, that does not sound like a healthy way to promote and make a character healthy for the game.

[rose kindle]

If they do this I will be the best player in the world

[heady wigeon]

I think maybe u dont understand. Im not suggesting or saying they should balance him around the mechanic. They wanted to nerf or change it, so im suggesting a better way to do so for all parties involved in every way. The mechanic isnt made stronger compared to pre nerf, its made weaker because u might be harder limited than the slow which vs 90% of the player base does exactly nothing

[rocky topaz]

That is the scariest thought in the world

[cobalt mural]

Can I ask if this statistic is being compared between new players before/after raw or in ratio to overall retention? .i.e. on curve etc

[rocky topaz]

I get that, but from someone who has been playing a decent ammount recently, both with, and against, zephs, both good and bad, I think he is probably in the healthiest spot he has been in for a long time, unless there is something wrong with his damage numbers when playing as him. A good zeph can still dominate a match and make insane crazy plays.

[quiet bridge]

The point wasn't about balance

It's about having interesting things in his kit

[rocky topaz]

So the only interesting part of Zephs kit was his B-hop, I really disagree with that. I get it was interesting, and it was probably one of the strongest parts of his kit, but saying it was what made his kit interesting feels extremely reductive. I dont think Zeph needs any changes right now, he fills a great role, has a lot of interesting tools, and is great to play.

[cobalt mural]

In fact like half of the top lane pool is tech-based identity

[heady wigeon]

Idk i cba this guy must be a russian ragebaiting spy at this point sorry man

[loud harbor]

You will really throw insults when someone disagrees with you...

[loud harbor]

Other than random knowledge checks tc needs to work on this just isn't really true

[cobalt mural]

Top lane as in League

Like Renekton is tech, Riven is tech, Gangplank is tech, etc etc

[rose kindle]

I do agree that b hopping is brainless and mind numbing, and I do think in terms of mastering especially at its meta was really fun. I think zeph in his current state is a solid character, but trios has made the character more unfun imo. Especially since all of the dopamine you get from the character relies on having more characters in game. I still think he’s the second most fun character. Bishop is the most fun. I do find myself not having fun bc I feel forced to b hop and b hopping is less fun itself

[rocky topaz]

Damn I didnt know he was hit that hard via Trios, but yea, if anything I think he needs another tool outide of just B-hopping to give him an edge

[rose kindle]

Maybe this is just me burnt out of zeph but I find other character more fun

[rocky topaz]

I stopped playing bishop for a while for that reason

[heady wigeon]

What u want us to do explain 50 times same thing. He just refuses to accept what we say and turns it into something its not lol

The point wasn't about balance
It's about having interesting things in his kit
^
So the only interesting part of Zephs kit was his B-hop
^

[rose kindle]

Major pleasure has a point there’s no denying that. You can easily make the character more fun without changing b hopping. Legit one of the changes is squads. Bhop for newer players is probably really fun, but since I learned when it was omega fast, it feels mind numbing and boring. This is fine. Major pleasure has a point

Even after his bhop got gutted I was having fun in squads playing him constantly

Because there’s more fun in big nades and heals than a b hop

[heady wigeon]

Okay, thats fine but how would adding what im suggesting ruin that exactly

[rose kindle]

Because bhopping is too OP

[heady wigeon]

Subjective but i can see why most zeph players arent in it fo the bhopping ye i think thats logical

[rose kindle]

He was a top 3 character before bhop got nerfed.

Honestly they should remove bhop from every character

[heady wigeon]

Has any character had anything remotely close to what im suggesting which is a change to how bhopping would work in various ways. Its not before seen or experienced so i dont think u can just say it will be op anywa cos u dont know and i dont know. But i can make an educated guess based on how it was before with added changes in not one area but multiple both mechanically and mentally. And being realistic i don tthink adding difficulty to something in those two areas makes it impossible for something that before was considered plain op to not be so

[rose kindle]

Making it a skill thing would be unfun for any person going against me

[heady wigeon]

Idk i just dont see it that way at all

[rose kindle]

The educated guess is zeph players will have fun and everyone against him will have no fun

It’s like chasing a Jin

[heady wigeon]

So u assume every zeph player across every rank would just execute it perfectly similar to how the old mechanic worked. When people struggle to even look at the map after a fight because they are occupied looking at items as example

[rose kindle]

Not at all. Low elo is completely different. Low elo has fun in other areas of the game compared to high elo. But in high elo I can guarantee if I’m playing the game with this change there will be complaints from high elo players

[heady wigeon]

Ppl cant even do like animation cancels in league after game is out for idk ho wmany years. Lower ranks still cant do these things properly as example

ah welp

[rose kindle]

You’re asking for pre nerf movement Jin with a heal in high elo

[heady wigeon]

So then i still dont see how being for example limited to either gliding and dashing OR using bhops is better than being able to easily swap between both

Which u can do so now

Why is it not mega broken now then

Why is it currently ok and balanced

[rose kindle]

Because they nerfed it?

[heady wigeon]

??????

lol

[rose kindle]

Because he’s chasable by oath and jin

And zeph can’t bhop towards people

(If you’re doing bhop correctly)

[rocky topaz]

Hunter killer Zeph's where the scariest thing in the game

No escape

And no catching them

[heady wigeon]

Maybe a powerpoint sometime could help explain it

[rose kindle]

Zeph current bhop is a run away tech that if he’s not already a bit away can’t glide bhop

And even if he does bhop away, a jin and oath can catch him

And brall

[heady wigeon]

And my suggestion does not alienate that if you read properly

[rose kindle]

You’re asking for a bhop tech that is very abusable if good at it

And can time it correctly

[heady wigeon]

Not abuseable

But outplay potential

[rose kindle]

Very abusable

[heady wigeon]

its not the same as abuseable

[rose kindle]

His old bhop was not ok and if it’s even similar in terms of speed to the original that’s bad for the game

[heady wigeon]

lol

[loud harbor]

I feel like you're suggesting making it more precise and harder to do, kinda what you said to me in a convo a while back. That will make it still he'll on higher elo. Sure it won't matter much in lower elos but it will continue to ruin the game for higher elo players simply cus their enemies will be good at it.

[rose kindle]

This

[heady wigeon]

I know people will be good at it and its not only good WHEN ur good at it

even if u are perfect

its not 100% going to benefit u

always

thats whats not understood here

But yes

It will create many oppurtunities where it rewards u for your investment

Which i dont see how is possibly bad

When they want more depth in the game

[rose kindle]

Current bhop is already very good

[heady wigeon]

If u can only go one direction at max speed, how exactly is that abuseable which is just one way of doing it

[rose kindle]

It’s very abusable in terms of tempo

[heady wigeon]

U run straight into zone killing urself

[rose kindle]

Tempo is very important

[heady wigeon]

How?

U cant go around walls

terrain

[blazing pecan]

I agree with Everything on this...

[heady wigeon]

Imagine u time ur dash with powers properly then current bhop is basicaly same as old bhop if ur not slow in the head since its a stacking slow

u said if my change is anythign similar speed

what im saying here

is ur arguement against mine

XD

[blazing pecan]

have my Star.

[loud harbor]

I can see the mobility take, i cant see the differentversion one much tbh.

I woukd honestly love if Hudson had a smaller second charge dash that simply just nudged him in one direction, thia qould actually be so good.

For the hitslow thing, hitslow already feels pretty weird to me. Sometimes I get a 30% slow from just getting attacked then my armor breaks and suddenly I literally move slower than a snail. But I can kinda see it, kind of hard to see what you really mean for the hitslow thing.

[loud harbor]

So is there no screen darkening effect when you go low in the abyss anymore? Istg there was one but now there ain't and it's actually throwing me off.

[rose kindle]

no? the first b hop is the same but after its not? like what????

[young bone]

i think its just an audio effect now, there might be some animations with the tether to the balloon or whatever its called

@loud harbor

[loud harbor]

Bruh, I'm actually having trouble telling how deep u am in the abyss now.

[young bone]

can learn the distance of that rope to know how deep? ive also died where it felt like i pulled out glider a few times lately tho. depth is definitely harder to judge without the red glow

i dont spend much time deep in the abyss anymore, people got a lot better at yolo chasing knowing you have to glide

definitely harder to know without the glow tho, also this chat was going off all day and no carbine hype smh

[loud harbor]

The thing is with how much stuff is normally going on in sv focusing on the orb to know how deep you are feels near impossible. I felt like it already wasn't too clear on how deep you were in the abyss, not it feel so so much worse.

[young bone]

when carbine thread? pog pog pog

ive started to stare at the balloon when im in the abyss because its more important than my healthbar tbh, i guess next step for me is to stare at the tether rope to see my depth

[loud harbor]

I feel like it's a bad change tbh. Supervive already has so much to focus on having to focus on another thong I feel like is bad.

Noone has mentioned it so it's likely to be unchanged which i think is bad and it's gonna take me a long add time to actually get used to.

[young bone]

i think its just change aversion, i noticed it day one its been gone for a while. i didnt like it either but im noticing it was distracting for no reason and the audio does the job to know depth without needing to look at your characters model to know your depth. i guess my point is its actually better to be looking at your hitbox (the balloon) while you are in the abyss because that decides if you can glide or not, not the depth

this is something i really started locking in on lately ^

[loud harbor]

The audio feels nonexistent to me tbh. Especially on Hudson when he's going brrrrrr holding rmb. And even without thwg sometimes there is simply a lot of sound and the audio is impossible to hear.

I really do feel like the change is bad. I feel like this is gonna end up making it even harder to get used to abyss play for no reason. I don't think there was really any issue with the darkening of screen. So I just can't see the point of the change and it feels really stupid to me.

[young bone]

if i had to guess the red glow was making new players panic and glide and get spiked. just my 2 cents

[loud harbor]

And with how much is going on in sv a lot of the time focusing om my balloon doeant feel possible if i don't wanna get spiked. Cus I have to be knowing where projectiles and my enemy are. And of I'm staring at my balloon im ignoring those.

[young bone]

actually that circles back to my point, looking at your balloon helps you because you can see if their abilities are reaching the ballon, if you are looking at your healthbar you are likely missing that crucial info

thats why ive been locking in on it

[loud harbor]

I could see that. But I feel like they'd just have to get used to it. Like sometimes getting punished hard is how you learn. I feel like abyss stuff in sv is kind of like that.

[young bone]

and the audio balancing i completely understand.. when hudson was meta i couldnt do vaults because my teammate killing the pylons was so distracting

hopefully theres another full audio tuning pass for 1.0 🙂

[loud harbor]

I feel like paying attention to what my enemy is shooting is what I gotta do more. Like if ghost is shooting or gliding/reloading ik I can glide now which I cant know if I'm looking at my balloon. And with elluna I need to know when she shoots which I can never really know if I stare at my balloon. I feel like the only time staring at it would make more sense is with a celeste, which I kind of already did.

[loud harbor]

Visuals are more helpful for me honestly. Unless i get another visual I'm gonna struggle mega mega hard with abyss play for a while

[young bone]

just try the balloon thing for a while i swear its op, its also how you look at your own DMG hitbox because of the aim line being at the Z axis, when i play tomorrow ill try to look at the tether and see if it has a different animation for depth or anything, seems like an easy thing they could add to give you a visual for depth

[loud harbor]

The thing that also might be throwing me off is I'm reqlly used to looking at ny cursor rather than my character. The game kinda encourages that as well with the camera settings and abilities on cursor settings.

[young bone]

forgot i had the game open, there is some visual stuff, the tether's length is an obvious one but there is some red clouds that spawn that are much more subtle than the old red fog

yeah thats always been a skill about mobas, gotta look where you aim and at your own hitbox, vs shooters you just aim