Season Zero: Saros Arrives, Leveling Adjustments, and Hunter Balance Megathread

[hard condor]

Not sure if trios itself was bad or did the combination of balance being off, reset mechanics make it feel bad

When a reset character like shiv got a kill she just full healed and went morbius mode

Since 1 less person = less firepower to kill the shiv

[arctic wadi]

🧛 ⛑️

[hard condor]

Facts

[woven steeple]

Helpful color - I'll add it to the note around Ghost's passive.

[eager matrix]

Tyty

[subtle rapids]

During the playtest I noted Felix's Ignite duration is halved. Is that a planned thing? If so, I'd be curious of the current thought process around it, because I'm a bit stumped on that change on its own

[woven steeple]

Minor spoilers, but it's because we're changing his Ignite to be lethal now

So as to take away that bespoke rule

[unkempt fossil]

Any, other Felix changes?

Like maybe making his spin let him hover for a short time????

[woven steeple]

Nope! That's the headline.

[unkempt fossil]

No reason I ask

[woven steeple]

LOL

MAJOR

[subtle rapids]

LMAO

[woven steeple]

I'll note it...

[hard condor]

Can I Inquire on plans for hudson. Me and the 7 other hudson mains have been waiting for a rough idea of what direction he will be taken in the future

[woven steeple]

We tried a few things on Hudson, but don't like what we've tried so far.

[hard condor]

Also his ult is bugged currently and cancells completely when using glider

[subtle rapids]

I see, is this intended to be a push to make him stronger, weaker, or sorta just an adjustment? I feel like that's a lot of damage loss, and Ignite 2 is already lethal, and pretty easy to reach

[hard condor]

In what direction? If I may ask

[unkempt fossil]

I just hope Felix has more options for fights rather then just DPS checking

[subtle rapids]

This is what I really want too but I imagine that's further down the road

So more curious about the short term thought

[woven steeple]

Basically just trying to take off bespoke Hunter-specific exceptions where we can in the game. Should be an adjustment all-up and not a buff/nerf.

[hard condor]

Because I feel like hudsons current kit would be fine with a few changes. Power reshuffle. Power away from rmb and into the rest of his kit

So he wouldnt be as one note

[woven steeple]

Ideas we tried were in the vein of leaning into his siege fantasy. It was power down on LMB and power up on Shift, IIRC.

There were also some LMB experiments we did around his firing rhythm.

[eager matrix]

I had an idea I think yesterday that I'd like to share.

"I'm shocked that no one has suggested making his rmb a short duration ability with a cooldown. LMB fires normally then on rmb press he gets a huge attack speed/damage/range steroid for the duration of the ability.

You can return loads of lost power to him if he has actual downtime and this change would give him just that."

Just a lil brainstorm I had the other night

[hard condor]

Or have it be tied to a resource bar

Which would basically be a cd

[woven steeple]

That might be along similar lines to what Hudson Gaming's saying, too.

[woven steeple]

Also same.

Hudson, Felix and Joule are on the brain right now. Harder Hunters to solve for but I think we got to a better place with Celeste, so want to think about these guys some more.

[eager matrix]

Btw Jess what's the general consensus like at TC rn regarding how the community feels about Saros so far?

I'm curious how you guys are interpreting our feedback so far on him

[woven steeple]

Seems like people enjoy his playstyle a bunch and what he does to change up rotations and holding specific angles. Bugged a few notable interactions with his portal, fixed some - looking into others.

[eager matrix]

fixed some 👀

HELL YEAH

[woven steeple]

Yeah. There's more where that came from, but his portal is pretty open-ended, so there's a ton of interactions we have to be aware of.

[eager matrix]

oh definitely

[woven steeple]

Philosophically, we'd rather make open-ended kits that say yes instead of not trying things like portals / group teleport / Beebo's bomb operating with the definition of "Creep" / etc.

But it does mean there's plenty of crazy interactions players run into.

[subtle rapids]

Oooh I see, makes sense!

I worry it may be more of a steep push that may generally make him weaker. The duration of the Ignite is now pretty similar to the timer for taking brews (2.75s vs 2s), and it's a lot of max HP damage loss for Level 2 Ignite (from 40% max HP to 22% max HP at double red blades, but of course you won't always reach those numbers!) so I worry about it taking away the urgency to take meds for enemies because the max possible damage is significantly lower.

I'm down to toy with the change though! I think it might just be a "play with it and find out" kinda deal.

[woven steeple]

So we try to prioritize. But yeah, that's the trade-off, certainly.

[eager matrix]

I respect that approach. Throwing spaghetti at the wall so to speak is a great way of finding out pretty quickly what works and what doesn't.

[woven steeple]

Gotcha - makes sense. Yeah, let me know how it works out in practice when you soak with it more.

[hard condor]

One thing on hudson rn ive thought about a lot is that his kit LACKS a way to confirm his damage. Because of this his damage has to be stupid high to actually matter when he gets it off for a brief moment.

His lack of "tools" forces him to be stat inflated.

I feel possible solutions are

1. Give him a cc tool to confirm his rmb but lower overall stats
2. Shift power away from rmb and into the rest of the kit
3. BRIGHT GREEN MANKINK SKIN FOR HUDSON

[eager matrix]

WE NEED SLINGKINI HUDSON SUMMER SKIN

[hard condor]

Technically Hudsons dash helps him deal damage so buffing the dash is an easy way to make him way more busted

[eager matrix]

If we think about it it's no more lewd than Gragas' base skin in League

[hard condor]

He would have pool floaties on his shoulders, slippers and a grill on his back

His arm would be a water gun

[pine fable]

I don't mean to interject the current conversations, but do want to say very happy to see Beebo lvl 4's slowly being put into game that mix up his play style and love the direction of the lvl 4! Wasn't able try it personally, but the idea sounds sick and makes me want to run max cdr with amplifier on him

Appreciate yalls work and looking forward to shift/bomb changes hehe. Make bombs stick on allies for lvl 4's and my life is yalls

[eager matrix]

water gun with 3 pool noodle barrels spinning around

[hard condor]

Attach beebo bomb on hudson and then launch him at the enemies

Zeph throws hudson at enemy team

[woven steeple]

His lack of "tools" forces him to be stat inflated.
Yeah, think the team agrees on this one.

[woven steeple]

Wait a minute--

[woven steeple]

Nice! Glad to hear it.

[eager matrix]

Wait bomb sticking to allies as a lvl 4 is a great idea. It opens up so many possibilities and is comp dependent enough that he wouldn't go it every game

[hard condor]

Good to know the main issue is in the know. Reassuring.

[eager matrix]

I just worry it might be too op to put it on a joule and tell her to send it lmao

[sinful moat]

API mentionned youhou

[woven steeple]

Feels like there were a lot of callouts for more Level 4 texture, so it's been good to see that more of the work here is hitting for people.

[unkempt fossil]

I think those 3, and Jin to a small point are the ones that I think are "Lacking"

[keen mirage]

I got to ask just mostly out of curiosity, is there any future ideas of making KPs hook lvl 4 give the CDR for grabbing allies as well?

[woven steeple]

Yeah, for sure. To your point though, what kind of utility matters. I do think regardless of what kind of utility you give him, it's probably damage-up.

[unkempt fossil]

In a way that I cannot think of as many ways to be "Creative" with them compared to everyone else, which I get isn't a bad thing, but it is the big draw of the game

[pine fable]

Shameless self plug here: just some of my ideas for cool lvl 4 for the king of mischievous chaos hehe https://discord.com/channels/852642429105995786/1335028012479025233

[sinful moat]

Watching the tom kick podcast since I couldn't check it live (And also to translate main points for the FR folks), good to see u again Jess

[pine fable]

The RMB is actually somewhat similar to what I was asking for so I'm happy for it

[hard condor]

I would honestly preffer actual proper utility on hudson like a reliable knockback. That would combo into the rest of his kit. His damage can be brought down a lot if he can actually guarantee it.

I love hudsons controller aspects and feel they are CRIMINALLY under utalized

[woven steeple]

Lol, oh no. I don't want to eat shit by trying this and not having the foresight to see the Joule case.

[woven steeple]

Yeah, Jin's on my personal list too. He'd probably be next.

[eager matrix]

Bomb ally Joule -> Joule Ults into 3 enemies -> ??? -> Profit

that's how mafia works

or something like that

[hidden reef]

Have Elluna pick up bomb?

[woven steeple]

Aw, thanks. Like doing these - happy to be on cam more, too.

[eager matrix]

ICBM ELLUNA TECH

[unkempt fossil]

I think the main thing with both playing as, and against Jin, Joule, Hudson, and Felix is that there isn't much creativity playing as or against them, but I think Felix has some options

[hard condor]

Hudson is like painfully one note

But I love my hubby

[pine fable]

I will say seeing people fuck with the idea of beebo being able stick it to allies is sick. It would play into controller fantasy and just helps amplify a more bomb focused gameplay and incentives something outside of shift max

[pine fable]

I miss fireside chat 😭. Def looking forward to next one

[eager matrix]

Regarding skins... Any news on Hotdog slinger celeste?

oh also Beebo's skin is being referred to by a fair amount of people as Pee-bo and we love it, thought I'd pass that along to you guys at TC

[woven steeple]

Always down to hear more Ability 4 ideas - did a call for these across Hunters and down for more.

[keen mirage]

Tbh Im just shocked he doesnt already lol, mostly because of the 33% on enemy hit lol

[woven steeple]

Just finished recording the next one this morning. It's definitely going to look like I time-traveled some (some was yesterday and some was today.)

[keen mirage]

And I feel it could a reason to max it a little bit more, since basically every KP player maxes dash or slam

While also not making it crazy op, just gives him some team utility to encourage using the fact you can hook allies already

[subtle rapids]

Want to +1 the idea of giving KP hook CDR on allies at level 4, since it already works on enemies. Would be a good encouragement to use hook more as a supporting tool if you max it

[hard condor]

I have an issue where I feel like I shouldnt come up with lvl4 abilities ideas for hudson since in my mind he is going to get a rework and any change could make him op out of the blue

[eager matrix]

Oh I guess I did have some more Saros feedback. His Q lvl 4 feels useless to me. Even without a mana item you're almost never running out of mana because of hitting orb or walking through a portal giving you insane regen

[woven steeple]

Yeah, tend to agree. Some of it I think was in the spirit of making them easier to pick up (not Jin, but the others,) but think there was some curses with making those trade-offs.

[eager matrix]

His uptime on Ionized with double tech is almost constant while in combat, mana really is a non-issue for him

[woven steeple]

Is this referring to Live or to today's playtest? (Just double-checking.)

[eager matrix]

Live*

[woven steeple]

Cool.

[unkempt fossil]

This may also be just right now, but Trio's makes Joule a MONSTER, like holy hell lol

[azure salmon]

An idea with Hudson, give his bullets ricochet against non-damageable terrain, or make shooting through his spikes spread the shots a bit more. Give him agency pretty much. Its what he lacks in his kit unless he is overpowered in stat-checking areas, which makes him feel bad to play against. So yea, agency and skill expression. ?? Joule I feel like is in a really good spot right now. Felix definetly needs some love. Jin is niche, I do wish his passive was different tho.

[hard condor]

I do not think that would really help hudson much other then make him way stronger but cool idea for lvl 4 rmb

His lack of agency mostly comes from lack of self defense

And no set up

[azure salmon]

Ricochet helps with both of that. Setting up and holding a spot is his deal, or atleast it should be.

[woven steeple]

Ahhhhhhhhh.

Rise, Joule mains.

[hard condor]

I think everyone else but hudson has semi reliable a way to set up their own damage in some way.

[eager matrix]

@static fractal RISE

[hard condor]

Its just that it overloads his rmb even more then it already is

Not saying its a horrible idea just thatd id preffer power be taken away from rmb

[azure salmon]

Id replace it with his RMB- or just remove RMB and give him an actual ability on his rmb instead of it being a passive increase for his lmb.

[hard condor]

I would give him a resource bar that gets used when firing rmb.

Press rmb you super charge for a short burst

[sharp olive]

https://discord.com/channels/852642429105995786/1350258130654728312

For people that tried the playtest feel free to give your feedback on this

[woven steeple]

I also wonder if this mainly makes him stronger...but the fantasy is cool.

[static fractal]

I think this is a problem with matchmaking as per usual…. But i think joule should be more powerful in trios

[eager matrix]

is my boy Mr Tatle

hi mr tatle

[static fractal]

Hello

I would still like a rework to her ultimate

Or some changes to make it a satisfying spell

Ive come to terms with the dash invuln change and think it will probably be a healthy direction for the future

[eager matrix]

I'm with you here. it feels pretty awkward to use

and just generally unsatisfying

[static fractal]

I think her ultimate needs serious reexamination because it feel’s impossible to use vs players who understand the kit

.5 delay to go up, animation time, .5 to land

Over a second of being in the same spot for a minimum pay off against good players

[blazing orbit]

some vaults with help or not seem easier to crack as the bar thins less or maybe im getting placeboed

[static fractal]

And despite all of this joule is still viable because she kills people for their mistakes really quick

Her passive dash likely just deals too much damage

[azure salmon]

The resent joule nerfs feel nice, I dont mind her being a bit stronger again. She is in a good spot imo. Just a hard hunter to learn to counter and requires fast reflexes to do so. Her ult was too strong before. Its now a lot more powerful to use as it was intended I feel.

[static fractal]

I dont think its powerful at all

I found the ult prio unsatisfying for anything besides escaping damage which is definitely not the intended use

[hard condor]

Does joule stop on hudsons wires again or was that taken out again

[static fractal]

Currently its just too slow to land on players with skill

[azure salmon]

Before- use ult to buy time to dash again. now, get stacks and use ult in a fight- It requires more skill to land now too, before it was point and click, no hunter could dodge.

[static fractal]

.5 second nerf tonland was not from last patch

Its been here for a good while now

Its less of a skill to land

Than opponents to not dodge

[azure salmon]

Im aware- just saying, she feels like she is pretty balance now. needing skill to actually do good, before she just relied on her dash too much.

[sharp olive]

Btw i have a question @woven steeple, not really about the patch but more of the game overall. Is it possible to update the creator pack ? A lot of creators and myself included want to make some thumbnails, banners or logos for SUPERVIVE but we lack of ressources. The creator pack is not updated so we need kinda find out ourself by cropping some screenshots. Is it something that your team can do in the incoming weeks/months ? Thx !

[static fractal]

I find i can still get success on joule but my success isnt because I played well

Its because my opponents fail to know how to counter joule

Or fail to execute the counter

I have no agency in that

A beebo knowing to lmb and reacting my dash isnt skill on ny part

A void failing to cancel my dash with puddle isnt part of my skill

[unique cedar]

are we discussing the playtest in here or nah? I mean it will drop for season zero

[fierce crystal]

It's on your part to be fast enough so they can't do that. That's just how joule is. You just gotta be fast enough I they can't react to it. It is on you in the end even if it may not seem like it.

[static fractal]

A player failing or doing the knowledge and execution check is entirely out of my control

[static fractal]

Joules dash is entirely reactable

From start to finish

[woven steeple]

All good. What's most helpful for the pack?

[static fractal]

Instant dash is reactable to most players who understand joules gameplay loop

[fierce crystal]

If you hold it yes, if you dint just hold dash to it's max range it isn't reactable.

[static fractal]

Tap dash can be reacted to i promise

[woven steeple]

Can talk about it here - it's open.

[static fractal]

If you expect joule to dssh on you, which you should as you get stacked, you should be able to rewct to the minimum charge up and dash distance

If you are in literal melee range then it is a coinflip favored for joule

But many good bralls are able to react to joule shift ult up close reliably

[fierce crystal]

The point isn't that it can't bro... the point is that it's harder... if you are going to dash thwn do it fast to hit it so they can't just dash away as easily. And if they get full stacked and hide behind a wall, then don't dash it's simple. They are playing around the joule, that is how it is

[static fractal]

If they can react to it and their character has an ability like beebo lmb, void puddle, etc. then i simply can never dash on them

No mayter the situstion

In these cases, then its not a moment of skill

But instead praying for rhe opponent to fail a knowledge check

[static fractal]

This isnt what im discussing tho

This is the counterplay to joule and joule can counter play thos

[woven steeple]

Yeah, Vaults have an increased vault lockpicking minimum hitbox size starting from the second Crysta patch.

[static fractal]

This is a skilled interaction where both players have input

And again theres no do it fast or not in the situations i find frustrating because even if i do it instantly the cast + travel time of joule dash is always reactable

Besides, i think the dash is less of my concern than the ult

I am okmwith spells canceling my dash

Outside of beebo lmb

That one feels incredibly unfair

[blazing orbit]

oh neat

[static fractal]

But the ultimate ability is unsatifying due to its over 1 second cast time + whatever time required for animation

[unique cedar]

if I am going to be entirely blunt I felt bittersweet playing today, because I genuinely enjoyed trios but I would've said the same years ago, I worry as to how much you will be able to recuperate from changes made to benefit squads in a fast enough fashion to be ready for your leaked launch murmurings

[static fractal]

And players are fully able to dodge it if they are of similar skill

[fierce crystal]

You simply have to play around their abilities.

[static fractal]

There is no playing around beebo lmb

[surreal aspen]

Would there be potential plans to reduce the duration of other long-duration debuffs? Shrike and Joule immediately come to mind since they apply debuffs that let them deal extra damage and said damage can be extremely frustrating to play against.

I don't say this with the intent to nerf them either. In both cases, it would open a lot more room for counterplay because "stall out the debuff" would be a viable option. In Shrike's case it would offer more room for skill expression (you get fewer opportunities to get your shots off), while in Joule's case it would potentially allow for more power in the rest of her kit and/or allow her old shift to be fair (since you have less time to confirm into shift), possibly making her easier to pick up overall.

[static fractal]

It is entirely in his favor

He simply has to react

Void puddle is more fair because he has to preemptively place it

[sharp olive]

All wallpapers, all full hunters art and their little icons, all SUPERVIVE logo variants, all SUPERVIVE "orb" logo Icon variant (and the vector version), all musics, main color codes of the graphic identity, all in game powers icons, all fonts used, etc... Everything is their original quality

I'm asking a lot but it can greatly help supervive to get easier "marketing" from creators, and also help ppl that are not really good at editing to still be able to product good stuffs.

If it's manageable it would be insanely cool ! Thank you. ❤️

[static fractal]

And allows for counterplay from both parties

Same for hudson wire

[blazing orbit]

also, sometimes the power shards dont seem to drop whenever the knocked player dies without execution i believe but need to test that better tomorrow

[static fractal]

Those cases are entirely ok to me

[blazing orbit]

like drain boots stuff

[static fractal]

Beebo lmb, and also the boar mob, are the only two things i find genuinely frustrating for my dash

[woven steeple]

Just glad you enjoyed it. Haven't seen your feedback come in yet, so let me know if there's adustments you have in mind.

[surreal aspen]

I saw that before your edit. The boar mob is my favorite spell

[static fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/dbz-discord-gif-24306382

I would just like joule to receive a new ultimate because reinstating the iframes would bring her back to exactly the problematic state she had before

And one more thematic to the electric feeling

[woven steeple]

Yeah - frustration makes sense, I feel it too. Definitely open to it, though it'd be valuable to find something more conversational and power-up to compensate for at least Shrike.

[blazing orbit]

beebo lmb is fine imo but i have a problem with his bomb where as the enemy team, it takes more than a few shots to get rid of it unless im playing shrike

i feel like it should be a static 3-4 shot limit to get rid of it as an enemy

instead of a healthbar

[fierce crystal]

Beebo can't fully charge lmb fast enough tho... unless he doesn't even need it fully charge then in that case it's a dumb interaction.

[static fractal]

Sorry for rambling i just have a lot of thoughts about playing joule and i would like the experience playing against joule to be better while not also destroying the experience of playing joule

[static fractal]

As long as its a swing

It cancels

[blazing orbit]

like certain barrel man kinda

[static fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/gangplank-gif-23074294

[blazing orbit]

may or may not be that guy

[unique cedar]

I genuinely need to sit on it a bit first because part of me is really trying to nail "were my gripes related to solo queuers lacking the ability to summon words from their mind to their mouth and in turn a microphone?"

it's a complicated abstraction of thoughts in play

[woven steeple]

You're good. Ult's where our heads are at too.

[fierce crystal]

Damn. Then yew that's dumb. If it was fully charged it'd prob be fine but if it just has to be a swing then genuinely wtf.

[blazing orbit]

i have more gripes with me dying to spike mid teamfight, my teammate not resing me till 3 squads left and promptly dying right after

[static fractal]

Yippiee

Yippiee

[lost dune]

Cooking proper feedback but initial assessment is that trios = very good.

[static fractal]

Think joule passive shift damage is the crux of the issue because it while having counterplay, isnt exactly a good experience to face. And will allow her to continuously kill skewed opponents who were already weaker than her

[subtle rapids]

I'm also gonna let my thoughts on the playtest simmer for a bit 🧘 I've regretted the past where I did my thoughts immediately after the playtest haha

[unique cedar]

it's funny because I think trios is what most duos players wanted but squad players seem repulsed

[surreal aspen]

Can Oath do the same thing to Joule?

[blazing orbit]

loss of items after res is pretty difficult to come back from since its not advised to jump right back into a teamfight with no health elixirs present

[static fractal]

Shockingly no

He has his shield tho

So

[blazing orbit]

heh

[static fractal]

Doesnt harm him too much

[woven steeple]

Appreciate it.

[static fractal]

Did i read that felix ignite is doing more damage

🫣

[woven steeple]

Yeah! Think this is a great approach.

[blazing orbit]

i find ghost lmb relatively underpowered but that might just be me

[subtle rapids]

It's doing less currently, but level 1 is now lethal

[static fractal]

Hmm

Not sure how to feel about it and i didnt test the playtest to know how to feel about felix post item changes + trios

But on paper that sounds not bad

Not sure

[lost dune]

tbh i haven't really paid attention to who does/doesn't like it
i'm still trying to put my thoughts into a vaguely coherent format that isn't exclusively positives, because there are some negatives/risks/etc. and ATM my brain is oatmeal.
oatmeal is a very bad substitute for neural matter, so you can guess how that's going.

[static fractal]

2.5 sec feels like a nerf for level 1 but not that much of a concern for level 2 because people often cancel it before the 5 sec tick anyways

[static fractal]

Mixed feedback from the na community but most say its fine

Good or fine

[unique cedar]

that's fair, I think it just came to mind as you're my go-to late night land of the free RP compadre

[woven steeple]

Gotcha. Ghost's looking pretty strong right now - but will keep an eye on it.

[static fractal]

Seems like the bigger concern most have is with the state of mana

Rather than the nature of trios

[unique cedar]

EU squads scrims whinging must be a local phenomenon in which case

[static fractal]

I mean im not gonna say thats expexted

But

[unique cedar]

oh I'd agree LUL

we're thinking the same thing RN I bet

[unkempt fossil]

Also... Been Enjoying Saros more and more

Dammit

[woven steeple]

Yeah, intent's for the change to be neutral - that's our general take too.

[unkempt fossil]

All the hunters are so fun

[static fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/shagarita-shalymar-shalymar-rivera-shalymarrivera-shalymar-rivera-gonzalez-gif-8343831328055775633

[woven steeple]

Yesssss.

[subtle rapids]

I worry it'll reduce the urgency for meds, since the damage is significantly lowered

Level 2 Ignite is easy enough to obtain, making it feel like a net negative because once you've gotten someone to Ignite 2, it's just a straight nerf. Killing someone with Level 1 Ignite feels pretty conditional. I wonder if it'd work better if it was 3.5s instead of 2.75s?

[hard condor]

Major hudson vid when

I will gladly show you tech

[static fractal]

Oh is damaged tapped too?

I thought ut was only duration

[subtle rapids]

Damage is tapped because of the duration loss

[static fractal]

Ahh i see

I suppose instead of medding when they get out of combat in that 5 sec window they just let it go out naturally

Possibly with the 2.5

[subtle rapids]

It's rare that someone gets away under 10% HP from Felix and isn't Ignite 2'd

[static fractal]

True

[subtle rapids]

Ignite 1 I think deals sub-10% HP at double red blades now

[static fractal]

Will have to see cuz i think felix needs maybe a tap down but not sure if its entirely necessary yet with so many system changes

[static fractal]

Now thats not nice

My beloved rmb

[subtle rapids]

I think it'd feel better if the damage wasn't as bitten down, but in my time in the playtest I didn't even notice the lethality until I tested it in practice

might need more time though

[static fractal]

Playtest also wont have the most fair matchmaking by nature

[subtle rapids]

true

[woven steeple]

Oh shit. Also yes to this.

[subtle rapids]

Hudson tech has to be diabolical

[hard condor]

Hudson has a jin spesific combo that deals an average of 1.3k dmg in 1 frame

Ive pulled it off twice

[subtle rapids]

h u h

[hard condor]

Technically works on everyone but jin is the easiest to pull it off on

[static fractal]

Uh

[subtle rapids]

[static fractal]

Pass that along also

Might need to check that out

[subtle rapids]

forbidden technology

I love it

[static fractal]

Also huddys dash thingy tech

[woven steeple]

Dope, thanks for the list.

[hard condor]

Which one?

[woven steeple]

Would honestly be happy to put more of this together.

[unkempt fossil]

I want my voice to come back so I can finish the Shrike video :L

Can you do anything about that Safelocked?

[woven steeple]

Are you sick??

Time to send 1000 cough drops.

[hard condor]

I can do a raindance

[woven steeple]

Real.

[sharp olive]

❤️ ❤️

[hard condor]

Its quite simple. Wire stacking You need to get someone inside the wires and then push them out of them. Works on jin since he teleports on you so you can bait him into a wire stack and then press shift. Instantly deleting him

Wondering if it might work with kp pulling people into the wires

[static fractal]

Gragas combo

Wtf

https://tenor.com/view/gragas-gif-16890395681105328061

[subtle rapids]

Actually maybe a better idea: Ignite 1 is lethal and only lasts 2.5s, and Level 2 lasting 5s as it does on live?

then the change to level 1 is a fair tradeoff of lethality but does less damage, and when you get a target to level 2, nothing changes. You eliminate the rule, whack the damage where that change actually matters and don't whack his damage that's unaffected by the change

[subtle rapids]

THIS IS DEVIOUS

[hard condor]

There is one like that too

But its really weird and havent been able to replicate

[fierce crystal]

Pretty sure if the kps hook ended on the wires it woukd. Cus i don't think someone is damaged by the wires if they're in a kp hook

[hard condor]

Very

When it works its the funniest thing ever cus the jin legitimately just evaporates

[unkempt fossil]

I have gone through about a thousand lol

[hard condor]

Also if you get launched fast enough while in shift and hit a certain angle you sometimes deal more damage then intended. Ive heard it happened to some and ive gotten it once in practice tool

[fervent ruin]

Trios is... fine I guess. I don't have any strong feelings about it, my main problem with this update personally is locking GM+ to solo queue

As someone who doesn't play this game solo and has been planning to climb higher with a friend since we've been holding ourselves back from climbing for our other friends to play and introduce this game with, it sucks

We don't and will probably never play this game solo and ranking up has become more and more of a punishment than a reward

Will never understand the disdain for premades. Esports teams run premade, scrims premade, literally the only difference between a team that is random against a premade team is that the premade team can communicate better

Just limit it to two at most if it's really a problem (it's not a problem)

[static fractal]

issue with premade is that if you arent premade its a massive competitive disadvantage

even at a high level

[fervent ruin]

Also Saros' portals are completely unplayable worse Myth abilities. It's too small for a projectile to pass through, you could multiply the size by 5 and it still wouldn't be good enough

If the portal is a drag and drop, like if you put a Portal in Point A and hold the Ult Ability to Point B, it creates this "path" for your projectiles to follow like a mirror reflecting lasers

[static fractal]

i wouldnt be opposed to 3 stack hours

like a clash system

[woven steeple]

Yeah, this is the main callout.

[woven steeple]

I'll note this one.

[static fractal]

where you opt into it with a stack on a ladder

ofc thats a thing that can really only happen with a big pop

but for many people who would like to play the game on my own schedule, even if i have friends at my level, i would like to be able to queue up and not be put at an immediate disadvantage before the game starts

[woven steeple]

That's cool. As we can support, that's probably how we'd do it.

[static fractal]

yea im a massive fan of the restrictions you guys put in this patch

and i think many other gm players on na echo that

games have felt significantly more fair and no one is going on crazy 1st place streaks farming weaker teams

[royal lark]

It would be really good for content creators and different communities for the game. +1 for this idea

[subtle rapids]

want to echo this

It's felt pretty good in ranked!

Also super excited for a no fill option in Trios

Sometimes me and a friend want to bush void game it up and we don't wanna ruin other peoples games when we're for-funning it

[woven steeple]

Yeah, same.

And nice! That's definitely the goal.

[fervent ruin]

I think that it's also a point of playing competitive is always meant to be that you play against other competitive players that are on the same level or better than you. Competitive isn't also not just holding your hand. Sure not playing with a premade can be seen as a disadvantage due to the lack of communication, but you're still playing with someone on the equal or so level of skill that you could also get with randos just without the seamless communication

Esports and scrims lean on premades because teamwork defines high-level play I don't think that the ladder should ditch that entirely. Restrict it? Sure, that's fair I suppose- two premades but at most

[static fractal]

issue is that you likely wont get teammates equal skill

especially at higher mmr

looking at league for instance

some teams already inherently roll better players(more gms/challengers, vs more masters players)

that problem would be worse if the gm/challengers could duo or play with even more players

if league, with its massive population already has issues with fair matchmaking at the top end without premades, it could only be worse

on top of that, premades who you play with consistently will have much more synergy with one another than randoms

looking at scrims for instance, my team is a middle of the pack team, but while playing with subs we end up at the lower end

its not that these subs are inherently worse players, we simply just dont have experience working together

if we had a team ladder its one thing, but for the most part competitive ladders should reflect indidivual skill

[fervent ruin]

League is an inherently completely different game from Supervive and shouldn't be a basis or be compared to in its matchmaking system. A jungle + top lane duo, a bot + support duo is pretty much nearly impossible to beat at those high levels. Literal pro players before were queuing in the hardest regions (KR) and were stomping everybody. That game has a restriction because nearly everything that game has been explored and you'll know the complete route of every champion will go for and to in every stage of the game with basic knowledge

Supervive is an ever changing battle royale where not every game is the same. A lot of the things are randomized. You could put the strongest hunters in the game right now in a trios and it will still end up being dictated by how well they played premade or not. There are not gamebreaking positions a team needs in Supervive like with league does with junle + top or bot + support

Losing is not fun of course, but just by shifting the blame because premades are winning just sets a precedence to look for an excuse to not be and play better which is the whole core identity of playing competitive in the first place which is to just get good and rank up

[static fractal]

And you can just control for so many factors by finding 2 of the strongest players available and queueing up with them

I ranked up playing mostly solo a good bit into gm against 4 stacks

The top players are good but are they 10k rp over their competition good?

[fervent ruin]

RP is not a measurement of their strength

it's a measurement of their time invested

[static fractal]

Right but rp ought to eventually reflect that

With soloqueue that is significantly more reflective

[fervent ruin]

it won't and will never be

[static fractal]

We should work toward a ladder system that does

[fervent ruin]

using League just like your example be, the top players and KR teams don't even bother ranking up and are currently around hovering over emerald~diamond

RP in those upper ranks where there's no cap anymore is where the strength gauging of ranks disappear and just a matter of how much time you invested playing in that rank

[static fractal]

Actually incorrect since outside of people like faker a lot of pro kr players are in fact top of their ladder

[sly shell]

Faker could sit in iron 4 and no one would care because everyone knows he’s the goat

[static fractal]

The top 10 of the ladder on euw was all 10 lec pros who were on finals stage

[fervent ruin]

my glorious king could do nothing and he's still a winner in my eyes

[sly shell]

Me when living in faker tower

[surreal aspen]

From my experience playing other competitive games, the ranked experience is almost always better if ranked doesn't emulate the tournament experience, with the only exception being if the ruleset for tournament games is different from ranked games (ie Smash Ultimate using a restrictive stagelist, Flash Party running strikeout for its 1v1 ranked mode in open beta instead of a flat 1v1, or even our scrims removing resurgence).

Disallowing premades from ranked Supervive would make it less like scrims, but that's the point. Ranked needs to support a wide variety of players, and it can't do that when legend premade squads/trios are allowed to run it down in ranked games.

[woven steeple]

We're looking at RP updates. More on that soon.

Going to get some games in get dinner! But reading all the playtest feedback, and will transfer callouts here. Appreciate y'all.

[fierce crystal]

I do really hope the ranked system is reworked at some point. It is way way too easy to get out of bronze and silver. Even for new players. Allowing pretty bad players to reach ranks like diamond or master, sometimes bad players even reach gm. Which bad players shouldn't be at the higher half of the ranked ladder. Bronze/silver should be to help worse players learn, not higher ranks.

And some people have talked about reaching diamond literally their first day of supervive. Hard to verify it but honestly I can see it.

[sly shell]

I do think the ante system is quite bad tbh but if we were to keep it I would suggest that below top 10/5 teams you actually get negative rp

[woven steeple]

Haven't been seeing this recently either, so accounts are helpful. (Not asking that from you, just calling it out.)

[sly shell]

For positioning

Increase the rp on kill and decrease positioning rp

[static fractal]

Rp on kill incentivize just running down the lobby

Obv we just said its possible ranked and competitive should not mirror each other but in scrims we recently have been discussing higher placement value because of it being a br

Placing first should be the most rewarded

[sly shell]

Yeah but you consistently see posts on the discussion boards on steam about how the game is such low skill you can reach masters (which tbf is not that high rank but theoretically should be) just by sitting in a bush all game

Which is a very uninteractive way to play the game

And while shouldn’t be punished, shouldn’t be rewarded either

[fierce crystal]

Agreed. I don't like the ante system but losing a certain amount of rpndepending on low placement would be good. Then theoretically you could still get positive rp from low placement with enough kills.

[fierce crystal]

The way I see it, the game is high skill but the ranked system is just too easy. Since the game does have a lot of skill to it but you can easily seem like a top player by doing close to nothing.

About huddy, I wish his dash did more dmg. I wish it was morw of a finishing move cus it feels like it should be and the 25% dash reset kinda makes it feel like that's what yall want. Which if that is what yall want it needs to do more dmg. Or just make it do a certain amount of dmg every tick if the person is being dragged by his dash.

[fierce crystal]

Also I still strongly believe dash cd needs to go back to what it was before on huddy

[hidden reef]

Also remember that only rewarding hurts people who play support characters

[sharp olive]

yup

feels bad

same for rewards on knocks (hp regen, mana regen and dash reset)

[hidden reef]

Yeahhh they really don't like support characters, do they?
which is funny bc Elluna in particular is probably the character most incoming players are most excited about, if I had to guess

Is there already a feedback thread on that? Might be worth making

[sharp olive]

go for it !

[fierce crystal]

They could have healing sscend armor as well. For xeph his damage ascends a lot already but on elluna her armor basically never ascends.

[hidden reef]

Something like that could be good. Would need to think about how to do it for other types of support, though (unless all supports are going to heal, which is a bit dull imo)

[unkempt fossil]

Yea, playing more and more, Jin is just... not fun to fight

Which hurts as someone who loves jin as a design :L

[arctic surge]

@woven steeple in the interview with Tom Kick you mentioned something along the lines of "adding a cost to recalling to teammates". just wanted to mention that i REALLY like recalling to teammates. it makes the game smoother in pubs and adds some really interesting and fun macro in organized play.

id be sad if it got added a cost so expensive that it wasn't worth doing anymore. honestly id love for it to stay free -- its super fun

easily my favorite change this patch unironically

[fierce crystal]

I think it could be good if there was something at a shop you had to buy to be allowed to tp to your allies. then you could choose which one to tp to as well.(the cost imo should be around 300-500)

[eager matrix]

I feel like that defeats the purpose of backing, no?

[fierce crystal]

i don't really see how it does. cus rn it kinda just takes away the risk with splitting which is prob my main dislike thing about it. this would at least mean you'd have to prepare to back and can't just do it on a whim, which i think would be better.

[blazing orbit]

btw i have been having ping spikes on frankfurt, havent checked mid fight the high number but im on mainline, fankfurt with 70 ping on average

also, aren't accelerated networks supposed to decrease ping instead?

[subtle rapids]

just different routing, for some people it won't change anything, some will be better and some will be worse

[blazing orbit]

gotcha

tbf 70ms is as good as it gets for frankfurt for me

[subtle rapids]

Just got my playtest feedback in

Also it felt like dash + glider was changed in the playtest, did anyone else feel that?

It felt smoother, but I'm not totally sure if that's actually the case. I put it in my feedback as if it did. It feels like when I jump+dash+glide on live, it stops nearly all my forward momentum, but it feels more gradual on the playtest, and I'm not sure why. Maybe a mobility change in general?

[unique cedar]

The dual carriageway is only the faster route if it doesn't require a large detour to hop on it you know?

[blazing orbit]

not entirely picking up what you're putting down here

[unique cedar]

network acceleration is like a high speed train, but sometimes it takes more effort to get to the nearest station to ride it than it does to simply take the slower moving bus

some people are going to be closer to another AWS server which means it's faster to go through Amazon routing than more general internet connections

if that's not the case you just use ordinary infrastructure

[blazing orbit]

yeah im getting 500-700ms spikes this patch

[eager matrix]

Was thinking about today. I feel like a lil cha-ching sound effect would be really funny on it

[hard condor]

[unique cedar]

for your consideration

(to be spammed when you res your whole team)

something stylised in the usual emote editorial fashion of course

[subtle rapids]

i think elluna, felix or chonker are the premier characters for cheekycashcat

[woven steeple]

This is so good.

[woven steeple]

If there are more suggestions here, I'll take it. But I do like this one.

[subtle rapids]

this was my vote too when i made a thread for it

we need a cha ching

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trR5YxZjfes

preferrably one like this

[static fractal]

Need something like this too

[sharp olive]

[subtle rapids]

elluna

would go crazy with the chuff emote

need someone to draw that

[sharp olive]

i'm not doing that lol.. am i ?

[unique cedar]

chat I have a few suggestions I bring you in light of our "not beating the living in LoL's shadow" allegations

https://tenor.com/view/ibai-gif-23942517

https://tenor.com/view/kameto-laugh-karmine-corp-kcorp-kc-gif-15917424746711376868

[sharp olive]

wut

[unique cedar]

https://tenor.com/view/xdd-caedrel-laugh-lpl-cat-laugh-gif-6472778749234019253

[unique cedar]

all of these GIFs are associated with the owner of a different European League of Legends team

https://www.tiktok.com/@teamfighttactics/video/7446579712735972650

[static fractal]

we had this in omega strikers

[chrome plover]

Mana rework happened

[eager matrix]

oh lawd

I will give it an honest go

and post feedback in a few days

[hard condor]

In theory about what you wanted

If I remember right

[chrome plover]

Yup, minus the way it is displayed

But I'll take it

[distant tangle]

Interested to see what you guys think of the mana system now

[hard condor]

In theory I should like it but my hypothesis is that the systems arent fully realized to what they could be

[subtle rapids]

it's a bit different because all-in characters run OOM if they're not getting knocks early

during the playtest it was very rough

[chrome plover]

Looking forward to it

[subtle rapids]

if you're not building mana you go OOM after one rotation until like level 12, otherwise i agree

[chrome plover]

Eeeh

[subtle rapids]

this is level 7 mana after a full rotation

[chrome plover]

Weird

[subtle rapids]

i think they just need to make the scaling mana better

like 7.5 per level instead of 5

[chrome plover]

Is mana readable?

[subtle rapids]

in what sense?

[chrome plover]

Readable in the ui during combat

[subtle rapids]

ehh about as readable as it always has been

they didn't change the UI

[hard condor]

Id like more hunter spesific ways to regen mana.
Thematic fitting ways that reward good play.
The mana per knock could honestly be nerfed.

Kp getting mana refund on grab or backshot. Would be cool

Felix maybe getting mana on ignite stack. Or mana regen per ignited enemy

So extended fights are possible but need to be played well.

[subtle rapids]

I like this idea

[fierce crystal]

I've mentioned giving mana back apun hitting abilities a lot. Idk if they've seen anything. It would more than likely help a lot tho

[chrome plover]

My initial proposal was about refilling it with hitting lmb, which Jess added unto it with "make more mana mini games like Joule & Bnnuy"

[subtle rapids]

I will say Felix feels pretty rough with the Ignite changes if you're Q maxing right now

you need mana and you can't really build mana double blade without slaughtering all durability, so if you're Q maxing hybrid is optimal

so you get stuff like this

[chrome plover]

Then mana on knock mechanic happened and all sorts of gameplay changes too

[subtle rapids]

should ignite 1 kill at this HP?

[slate granite]

yeah you could have some hunters have "generating" abilities, which generate mana upon successful cast or something

[woven steeple]

Read the notes here, yeah.

Generally, you can expect that the team reads the survey results for community playtest.

[hard condor]

One thing ive noticed is that it takes a little to come up with feedback that makes cohesive sense. And I realized I might write something in the surveys I disagree with later or realized a bigger issue I had after i slept the night and talked with others

[frigid trout]

I do think it's a problem that every playtest has multiple huge changes in it. It's nearly impossible to judge how trios impact the game when we're also testing a new mana system

[hard condor]

That too. Often im just starting to get a feel for the systems just as the test is about to end

[chrome plover]

Still pointing out symptoms is already great in my perspective

[hard condor]

Well we will get more then 1 test to get a better feel

I will say that it seems like kind of a fast push with and I assume we will have more tests next week too

[hard condor]

Is there a talk today or something else planned

[fierce crystal]

Ima just talk about it here since nowhere else to reqlly talk about it that has even a chance of being seen.

Hudsons ult honestly needs to be bettwr or more impactful. The ult is way too easy to dodge qith just a dash, or you can literally just side step it cus if how slow it is. Then for some reason with how weak his ult is it has a fucking 40 second cd. That cd makes no sense, especially when it's his only real way to confirm kills. Cus without it 99% of hunters can get away at like 20% hp left by simply dashing away or going behind a wall.

Honestly it should travel faster, have a shorter cd, and honestly should last longer. I and many other Hudson players have wanted an ult reset but I get that thats considered a "brall thing". Which I don't really like that sentiment cus Hudson needs his ult to confirm kills more than brall does.

Then along with that Hudson honestly needs a better way to defend himself. His wires take way too long to deploy and are way too easily destroyed to be a good tool of self defense.

I'd say just make his wires deploy instant or near instant if they're deployed within a certain range than any further they take progressively longer to deploy. Since if they were instant at full range that woukd be broken. But at close range wouldn't be too bad. Then when you know a hudson has no wires that is when they are most vulnerable. Would be bettwr than it just being their dash.

[hard condor]

My biggest gripe with wires is people dashing into them and then walking away unfazed. It kinda feels bad when the punishment for dashing into a wire I set up is to take 150 damage and be slowed for like 0.25 seconds

[fierce crystal]

Also this is a very small thing, but I miss hudson's dash destroying bushes. Ik it was taken out to fix the bug. But like there is no way we can't have his dash destroy bushes without it proving the 25% reset. Wouldn't be surprised if they just made it not destroy bushes cus they were kinda in a rush and didn't have enough time to make bushes nit proc the 25% reset, in maybe the game counts bushes is non tangible players, meaning that an ability that interacts with bushes and is supposed to get something when doing that with players will so it with bushes in that case. Which means they'd prob have to change a lot of shir in that case which then I understand. But if there is any chance we could get his dash destroying bushes back without the bug that'd be so good.

[fierce crystal]

That's also another issue. But I do think that if his wires deployed insta at close range Hudson could just use them fir self defense then that wouldn't matter much I don't think.

[hard condor]

Ok ngl you said that in the longest way possible

[fierce crystal]

Punishment to any devs that read ot for taking it away ._.

And like I said why it might happening and everything as well, so ofc it's long asf.

[hard condor]

Could have just said "I liked dash destroying bushes. Pls bring back"

Not flaming but kinda gets the point across without a text wall

[fierce crystal]

Nah. And I had to give all the insight possible to the bush destroying dash

[hard condor]

True!

[woven steeple]

Hello hello!

[unkempt fossil]

Hi jess!

Happy Birthday!

[woven steeple]

Happy Friday!

Hey.

Happy birthday, Major.

[green remnant]

Hi

[unkempt fossil]

Thanks!

[woven steeple]

Wait a minute--

[unkempt fossil]

I will be here, but also am working on the Shrike video, so on and off :P

[woven steeple]

NA Trios test is also going on, so I'll read some of the notes above. Will also be on and off.

[unkempt fossil]

[hard condor]

[woven steeple]

For people who are noting this in the Trios test - ignore the Wind Ring change and the Power consumables. Lol.

[unkempt fossil]

Sorry

Power consumables?

[woven steeple]

Major, I said ignore!!

[unkempt fossil]

FINE

[woven steeple]

LOL

KHYZARO HI

[sharp olive]

[woven steeple]

Let's play more together, please.

I'll play on EU more now. Lol.

[sharp olive]

ok fine

[woven steeple]

Yessss.

Also, come to the Beebo dark side.

[sharp olive]

I've already given my loyalty to Kingpin

[unkempt fossil]

There we go, you didn't see the other one

[sharp olive]

he's our true lord

[woven steeple]

I didn't see anything.

Dude, your Kingpin hooks.

I love.

Any Kingpin playing geometry =

[sharp olive]

i'm launching NA playtest

[woven steeple]

The ping though!

[sharp olive]

tell that to Arena NA players

[woven steeple]

Loool

[green remnant]

@woven steeple Good evening, could you just give me a tip about the April support hunter?

[woven steeple]

Spoilers request?

Hmm.

She's so soon though.

[sharp olive]

i just hope she's gonna hard to play

i'm a main supp and only playing KP supp and Zeph was good for me

[unkempt fossil]

Can you tell us if her staff we see in the snippit from the fireside a scythe or a wand

[sharp olive]

I'm in

[woven steeple]

Thinking. What can I say...

[unique cedar]

saw another top-down team game die literally this evening (Seekers of Skyveil), I get this is asked a lot but what's SV's outlook RN at public facing macro level?

[woven steeple]

Staff? Staff.

Industry's rough generally these days.

I could see the argument for top-down not helping. But there's a lot of options in general.

[unkempt fossil]

Eh, who cares, game slaps

[woven steeple]

Not sure if anyone could say with confidence how you would attribute that split.

[hard condor]

Its kinda unfortunate how top down games dont get that much attention because everyone and their fathers have played cod. and transfering aiming muscle memory doesnt translate

[arctic surge]

aiming muscle memory def translates imo

[woven steeple]

All I know is that we'll keep working on SUPERVIVE, and enjoy it.

[arctic surge]

but can see ppls hesitation :(

[unkempt fossil]

I just describe the game as playing like Hades and it avoids the top down comparison

[unkempt fossil]

Based, as Fuck

[hard condor]

My friends refuse to try vive out because of league comparisons

[unkempt fossil]

Call it a "Physics based Hades Style BR"

[woven steeple]

Have mused on that as someone who's tried a lot of genre names out for size.

Have done the same thing (referring to ARPGs.)

[subtle rapids]

I really liked "Top-down Hero Shooter Joyride"

league comparisons don't really transfer over i feel

[woven steeple]

I suggested joyride, haha. Got reasonable feedback it was hard to visualize.

[subtle rapids]

Yee that's true

Joyride isn't very descriptive, just flavor

[woven steeple]

For sure.

[eager matrix]

is it intended that radar jammer goes into your consumable slots on the playtest?

[woven steeple]

Nope. I'd quote myself, but ignore it.

[sharp olive]

see @woven steeple even the ping can't hold me back

[eager matrix]

hey that's me in that clip :)))

[woven steeple]

Wtf

[subtle rapids]

that goes crazy

[woven steeple]

LOL Miles 💀

Oh no.

[eager matrix]

nah I mean on his team lmao

[woven steeple]

OH

[eager matrix]

not getting clipped

[woven steeple]

I didn't zoom in.

[eager matrix]

well getting clipped

but not like that

[chrome plover]

Oh, I can't send a link 💀

[hard condor]

Pain

[hard condor]

Ngl got stressed looking at your mana bar

[subtle rapids]

Oooh, I'd be curious: how did mana land so far?

[chrome plover]

I know I hop right in the middle of nowhere kind of offtopic, but we got news for premium currency regulations in the EU, the stuff I talked a lot to bubo a few months back

[eager matrix]

oh btw got a smol bug to report about the new hunter's journey ui

Clicking and dragging the scroll bar then moving your mouse too far left or right loses the "grab" so to speak and you have to click it again. idk if this is intended or not

[sharp olive]

you have to be lethal, or you die

i choose lethal

[unique cedar]

it's changed the game so fundamentally I might main Felix now

[hard condor]

Dont feel it on hudson. Some hunters really feel it though

[eager matrix]

PRACTICE HUNTER BEFORE UNLOCK

THIS IS SO GOOD GREAT ADDITION

[subtle rapids]

Felix also feels pretty bad with it unless you're RMB maxing

but I reverted to building greed for Q max because you need some kind of mana

[unique cedar]

oh I shift max

[unkempt fossil]

I've been actually really enjoying the mana changes, makes me think

[subtle rapids]

you know what, respect

shift maxing is a tough life, borderline assassin gameplay

[subtle rapids]

I like them but think tweaks may be required for some hunters

Kingpin has it pretty bad

[unkempt fossil]

Yea, I think there are somethat are a bit rough, but overall, its a good change!

[woven steeple]

Cover some stuff that's related in the Fireside.

[sinful moat]

Letsgooooo

[hard condor]

I might honestly preffer trios (bias because hudson)

I can tell whats happening way better.

Altough you notice that some characters just "do more".

[subtle rapids]

OH now that I've had more time to play with the Felix changes:

I think they don't feel as bad as I was expecting, which is good! There's the occasional kill that feels a bit cheaped out from the loss, but if it means more options for him down the line, I'm okay with the loss

[woven steeple]

Yeah, seeing this note a bunch.

[woven steeple]

Also seeing this note a bunch for Trios.

[eager matrix]

(playtest) I don't play shrike often so idk if this is normal but I've had quite a few shots play the "racking" sound and then not fire

[hard condor]

You "POP" less, wishing for more individual hunter power though. Small adjustements to less "endowed " hunters

[subtle rapids]

Yeah I initially didn't like the mana changes in the playtest but I think that's just a main bias lmao

Comes with more time + adaptation

[hard condor]

Hudsons feels amazing. Until

[unkempt fossil]

I do have a question for y'all, am I a bully for this?

[fiery tapir]

who (other than your hudsband) are less endowed?

[hard condor]

I think more then 70% of my losses in trios was to shiv

[woven steeple]

Appreciate it. I'll send this note over.

[subtle rapids]

evil

i love it

😈

[hard condor]

Mainly thinking of Jin, Hudson and maybe Elluna.

Hudson needs changes

Jin and elluna I think could use little more power but not 100% sure

[sinful moat]

Mana force me to not play double tech, which I guess is good? But don't know if it was how I would wanted for it to happen..

[subtle rapids]

I think it definitely needs tuning to be better, but I think the core is really solid

It's actually something that needs to be processed now

[chrome plover]

Great to hear

[eager matrix]

A sign of missions to come perhaps?

[sinful moat]

Yo Nit how are u doing?

[hard condor]

Im kinda biased because i have this adamant belief that in a br every charaxtef should have adequate tools to fight everyone else.

Not sure if that design philosophy works in vive.

In my mind the less players you have on the team the more "all rounder" the character kits should be

[sinful moat]

Disagree with that

[chrome plover]

Short so I don't disrupt the topic: more or less the same. I'm okay when I don't use that much my wrists, but when I do it gets really painful. Today I received my copy of Xenoblade X collector and I could barely play it 💀

[simple turtle]

I LOVE THAT BIOME BOSSES HAVE POWERS AGAIN IN TRIOS PLAYTEST. YIPPIE, YAHOO, LETS GOO!

i wonder if powers like glider jet still come from chaos steppes or whatnot, will have to test and find out

[hard condor]

Not talking everyone can do everything, more so everyone can do atleast a little bit

[sinful moat]

It does, and it shouldn't..

[sinful moat]

Take care, good to see you around

[simple turtle]

What about hovers, do you think it should?

[sinful moat]

Nop

[simple turtle]

and uh abyss specialist

probably not

[sinful moat]

Legendary shouldn't drop from biom bosses

[subtle rapids]

^

[sinful moat]

Imo

[subtle rapids]

i agree

don't need consistent glider jets

[simple turtle]

i can agree with this

[hard condor]

Could you explain your point of view

If its not too much of course

[subtle rapids]

This fireside seems like a doozy

it sounds like so much to cover

[sinful moat]

Yeah sorry, I'll keep it short. I think the hunters right now need more identity than ever. Not every hunter should be able to do everything. To me, everything being a skillshot and the spike mechanic already offer ways to 1vN no matter the hunter you play. And if you want the game to keep the "playing as a team aspect", having clear weaknesses/things you can do are essential to keep this feeling

[woven steeple]

I'll take the Legendary drops note.

[arctic surge]

probably make stuff like tunnel drop from chaos steppes since we'd have to remove 1/2 of its pool

[unkempt fossil]

They should feel legendary to get

[subtle rapids]

I want to be excited to get them yeah

[arctic surge]

id also love if abyss, wings, and jets dropped like normal legendaries (night bosses + train) and weren't possible to find in vaults.

be a great objective to play for

[subtle rapids]

How do we feel about them dropping from perfected vault chests? (clearing a vault without failing)

not guaranteed obviously

but

as-is now

[sinful moat]

Disagree, I think an overall changes of Vault need to be done, and that's where Legendary could shine

[woven steeple]

They should feel legendary to get
I love this.

[rare tulip]

I'm loving Trios. You can see so many things implemented from feedback, even if the change to Trios itself won't land with everyone.

Finally, I've taken to calling SUPERVIVE a MOBAttle Royale.

[subtle rapids]

My friends and I keep saying "Can't wait for Trios" when queuing squads

we're really excited

[woven steeple]

The team's been surprised to feel similarly.

[subtle rapids]

This patch has felt weirdly great, and I'm not sure what hit the nail for me

[woven steeple]

Yeah. Thinking about this right now.

[eager matrix]

trios gives me so much more individual agency, so much more than I would have though just looking at the pure numbers. Really enjoying this test and the trio scrims we've been doing lately

[woven steeple]

Yessss.

[sinful moat]

Good to know ! Can't wait !

Will another freaky week happen this year btw safelocked?

[subtle rapids]

FREAKY WEEK

GRAAAHHHHH

[sinful moat]

Or is it hard time/schedule-wise?

[subtle rapids]

i am so sad i haven't gotten to experience one, the idea is so cool to me

i love the idea of downright insane changes to try new things

[hard condor]

Oh yeah totally agree with that. Clear weaknesses and strenghts should be there.
Just have noticed some characters lack key tools that make them worse then others, while some have way more tools then they probably need.

I might have worded my thing a little wrong but theres some tools I think are universally required to make a character viable in a game like vive.

[unkempt fossil]

I am excited about Trio's because I think quicker queue times will help with the games "Reception" and I will be happier to get games quicker

[subtle rapids]

I will miss the craziness of full 8-12 man fights

I love the level of chaos

[sinful moat]

To be fair, in the span of 2 hours I saw a lot of 3rd/4th party, 12 teams helps for that a lot

[woven steeple]

We're probably not scheduling another one of these for a bit, yeah. Focusing on the live service and 1.0.

I want to get back to this, because we love it.

[subtle rapids]

maybe one day... we will see freaky week return... 😔

[woven steeple]

But for now, that's the focus.

[subtle rapids]

respect though

[sinful moat]

Thought so, understandable and probably the best choice

Asked in case

[subtle rapids]

^

[subtle rapids]

ye, just not as consistent I feel

but tbh

better for the game overall

one of the main complaints I've heard from my friends I've tried to get into vive is "it's too hard to understand what's going on"

[hard condor]

May I inquire on hudson changes/plans the other hudson players are getting VERY anxious and frustrated rn

[subtle rapids]

they just see shit flying across their screen

as a test, I took one of them into duos and they said "this is way easier to figure out"

[sinful moat]

Totally agree with you, it isn't fair for all of them right now!

[subtle rapids]

so I feel/hope trios will be a good middle ground

[hard condor]

I can tell what actually killed me now (it was shiv for the 17th time)

[subtle rapids]

real.

I also love the variety it adds to comps

Comps have a much harder time having all bases covered

Can't be good at everything

[hard condor]

I hate when shiv just dashes into my wires, shrugs it off and eats my ass as desserts

[sinful moat]

And I think it's a good thing

[subtle rapids]

Mhm

I agree

[sinful moat]

To not be able to cover every bases

[subtle rapids]

Ye

[sinful moat]

Choose what you consider important and to know what are your clear weakness

Makes it so you have to play differently depending on your comp

[subtle rapids]

I feel like comps were kind of irrelevant in Squads often because there were enough players to not have to make tough decisions on hunters

[sinful moat]

And it isn't-> take the best 4 hunters that cover all the bases and gg

[subtle rapids]

Oath moment

[hard condor]

Now the 3 best hunters might have a counter pick that ruins them

[subtle rapids]

[hard condor]

I need to learn oath

But I always fuck up the combos.

[unkempt fossil]

I am afraid of the Oath video

[subtle rapids]

I got hit for half my HP in a quarter second by an Oath LMB+bash the other day and wanted to fade

[hard condor]

Doesnt oath have like a combo that sends you to narnia

[subtle rapids]

literally that iirc

hang on i got a clip of it

[hard condor]

Also funny interaction, hudson shift + oath sends hudson into orbit

Like he takes off

Same with basically any knockback

[rancid hare]

Elluna passive feels a little awkward with less people to dash through lol

[hard condor]

A beebo once hit a homerun with me in arena, sent me to one of the other islands

[rancid hare]

I've won every game I haven't seen glider jets/gas

[subtle rapids]

i should've dodged it

half my HP right there felt so bad

[unkempt fossil]

I do think number stuff like that may just need to be adjusted

[sharp olive]

the ult is even worse now i suppose

[fiery tapir]

keep recognizing people on the playtest. Got slam dunked by chinese spy and everything.

[sharp olive]

we spinnin

[woven steeple]

Think we talked about this last week, but we're trying a few different Hudson changes and they're not quite hitting the better counterplay requirement (and they need to.)

If you have new notes to call out though, I'll share with the design crew so they're referencing it.

[arctic wadi]

I loved trios

[hard condor]

I see an ene...

[subtle rapids]

Speaking of Hudson, anyone else feel like his damage got significantly higher during the Saros patch?

[hard condor]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebo-mr-krabs-hammer-hit-beat-up-gif-26506830

[arctic wadi]

I think it would be better with my beloved Vampiric Helmet for the best experience

[subtle rapids]

It wasn't in the patch notes but I know the tooltip says his damage was increased

[arctic wadi]

Also I think elluna should be able to use her ultimate on herself

[woven steeple]

Getting dunked by Chinese Spy is a formative experience.

[subtle rapids]

Elluna's ult has always felt really underwhelming and weak to me

[fierce crystal]

from my experience it's the same, like full dmg rmb max does same as last patch. I've literally tested it based off of clips i had. idk why it feels higher(cus it does) but the numbers it's showing are the same

[arctic wadi]

If oath and beebo can self rez with basic abilities she should be able too with an ultimate

It would be a nod to her lore where she was revived by the Moon you see

We would be able to renact this experience in gameplay itself

[sharp olive]

IMO Oath should only have his GA on heal when it's lvl4

[arctic wadi]

Imagine a hype gameplay moment where she revives herself on the backline with a teammate distracting the enemy then she grabs her ally's wisp and flees

[sinful moat]

Feeling a bit sick so I'll take my leave here, just want to remind about the glide/spike height that hasn't been changed in the trio patch and you can still spike ppl even if they are "very" high, gn everybody

[subtle rapids]

I know LMB does ~5 more damage per shot than it did when the Wiki videos were recorded

[woven steeple]

I'll take more clips here.

Good night!

[subtle rapids]

Which I believe was open beta

[sinful moat]

I'll try to see if I have some tomorrow, thanks !

[woven steeple]

We haven't changed anything intentionally here, so want to figure it out.

Yeah.

Lemur had some great repros for the flashing lights bug, got a fix in for that.

Also, feel better Gugu!

[subtle rapids]

actually @fierce crystal you got any clips of hudson LMB from pre-saros?

i'd be curious for accurate documentation

[sinful moat]

Hope so, I showcase one of the game I worked on in a theater tomorrow so I gotta get better

[hard condor]

His rmb should probably be time gated, by like a resource bar like mana.

Hitting shots could refund mana maybe.

Also if counterplay is wanted lower rmb range and damage but give him tools to set up his rmb.
Remove the self heal on hit

The idea would be that he would "combo" you kinda like KP if you enter infront of him and he pushes you into a wall/wires, ults and shoots you for a bit

Lmb as a general ok ish damage tool but rmb for bursting and comitting.

Maybe make it so rmb doesnt allow you to dash when spun up (maybe have shift be replaced by a "fat shot" that pushes back enemies kinda how oath parry works)

I really dont think he needs too extensive of a rework he just needs a clear combo he looks for and for enemy to watch out for and more limits/risk to rmb usage

I wish hudson is required to utilize his entire kit to kill (all damage sources) like kp

Not just rmb. Its too binary

[subtle rapids]

Fighting Hudson as Felix is such an experience

it's so silly

2 LMB holders going at it

[hard condor]

Fighting felix as hudson is silly

[woven steeple]

Silly fox against silly man.

[eager matrix]

It might be cool if Hudson threw his barbed wire at people as a projectile. You'd be able to use it more reactively and it would let his kit move more power into it to spread him out a bit

[hard condor]

Ive had a rework idea where hudson overclock changes ability functions slightly

Also one other thing

Wires, make them thinner

But have collision properties so they synergize with wall bang abilitirs like bishop punch

Think it woild be very cool

[unkempt fossil]

And Silly Big stabby dude, and silly shocky lady

[fierce crystal]

it feels like it's near impossible to get dash resets on elluna now. cus rather than just some of your team having to be close together literally your entire team does. elluna definitly feels like she got a lot worse

[eager matrix]

Also Jess gave you guys seen this thread? #1352091064294576138 message

Lots of feedback about seasonal missions

[fierce crystal]

prob somewhere. can look after pt

[hard condor]

Heres the rework idea I made and some other stuff #1343175636985839668

[chrome plover]

Hudson Gaming

[hard condor]

Shameless self plug

[subtle rapids]

would also be great if you hovered the LMB tooltip at any point, though I can calculate with the old values if necessary

[fierce crystal]

funny thing is, hudson tends to win unless the felix ults in unexpectedly, cus just one wire then felix cannoy get onto huddy

[hard condor]

I get so exited talking about huddson I start sshaking

[chrome plover]

No shame to be had, only hudsoning, you're so hudsonful

[subtle rapids]

or the counterplay that felix has, to engage with shift + Q and R over him to get behind him after he blows shift

it's pretty even

[hard condor]

Battle of stats

[woven steeple]

I'll add both notes to a Hudson thread with the team so we can talk about it.

[subtle rapids]

i don't think hudson is directly a losing matchup for felix if the felix plays smart with not running at the hudson directly

[subtle rapids]

real.

we love statcheckers

[hard condor]

https://tenor.com/view/manly-handshake-fma-brotherhood-fma-armstrong-armstrong-handshake-gif-16567570

Statcheck enjoyer meet up

[fierce crystal]

well, the hudson can still just place wires as soon as he sees the felix. i've kinda got in the habit of doing that cus it just fucks felix and makes it so he can't come onto you. and it still counterplays that. but it honestly just depends who faster

[hard condor]

Who out stats the other statsier

[fierce crystal]

I love having stare downs with other hudsons, but then when our teammates interupt the staredown it pisses me off.

[woven steeple]

These guys would be buddies.

[hard condor]

I like to imagine hudson curses a lot but stops around elluna because he likes the bunny. Or is affraid of her...

[fierce crystal]

I'd love for elluna and huddy to be friends. would be awesome(justin pleeeease)

[hard condor]

This server is not ready for my headcannon crackships

[fierce crystal]

I've prob seen weirder stuff written about the charcters than whatever you can say.

[unkempt fossil]

I see hudson as being a dad who is doing all this to buy his daughter a pony, and his daughter loves bishop and calls her "Auntie Bish"

[fierce crystal]

also: hover wings are invisible and sometimes don't let me stop them

[subtle rapids]

Felix and Hudson mains stand in solidarity

[hard condor]

They are sentient and trying to take you

What if the icarus wings are a parasite that devours you when you go high enough

[subtle rapids]

cool ass design ngl

ooooh, btw, how did the soul changes land for everyone?

like stealing it by last hitting

[warped birch]

I love it

[hard condor]

Got killed by shiv before souls spawned and then had to run errands the last hour of the playtest

[warped birch]

last hitting changes

[hard condor]

In theory hudson should be able to steal them with ult

[eager matrix]

I want a power that cannot be dropped on pickup that has strong benefits and strong drawbacks. Would be super cool.

Give the hunters using it a veiny "the infection is spreading" kinda visual on them. Parasite power type beat

[warped birch]

Safelocked can we add a toggle to icarus glide

so its actually usable as a pickup

[subtle rapids]

Oh, and question for Jess:

Something I've been wondering is, since we're coming up on Arc 2, what does the team want Seasons/Arcs to be moving forward? I haven't quite understood it, but I suppose it's because there are more important matters.

Is it for the gameplay changes? Lore? Events?

[vocal kelp]

Yeah still not a huge fan of the mana changes in terms of melee chars being cooked and forced to go mana item while ranged doesn't

[subtle rapids]

this'd be funny but deeply scary

it makes sense though

[hard condor]

Hudson stonks up, free soul secure every time

[woven steeple]

We originally had different Season timings (Ranked resets) with content drops. Since then, we've shortened seasons - so revisiting this.

[woven steeple]

Yeah, I saw another person mentioning this. Do you feel power-wise melee characters are in a more appropriate place, and it's more about loss of build depth, or does the first note not apply?

[woven steeple]

Noting.

[lost dune]

honestly i feel like even ranged "needs" mana insofar as you either get a kill in 1 combo rotation or you stop playing the game for 4-5 seconds

[vocal kelp]

Most ranged hero's (I'm speaking from Felix or Kingpin perspective not so much Brall Jin) still create value and can usually rely on their LMB's in the downtime, they also only have to dash in reaction and not proactively letting them use their main abilities more often and in a versatile manner. Melee has to close the distance relying on them spending their dashes to even get your first rotation off thus leaving u with no mana to get out or continuously stay in unless u get a knock

[hard condor]

Would it be better if dashes cost no mana but abilities had heavy mana costs?

[warped birch]

Mana changes + CDR changes are great IMO because it made building double tech on half the hunter cast way less prevalent. However I think Melee characters (felix,KP,Brall,Jin) get gassed way faster than ranged. Leaving it a bit lopsided in favor of ranged currently

It's not insanely bad though right now. Aside from KP

[vocal kelp]

also just losing out on the extra stats that ranged get to have in CDR, movespeed, or vamp is a big value loss for melee's

[woven steeple]

Right. I think my question's like - there's been discussion here around melees having a perceived unfair ability to stick to targets.

[vocal kelp]

since you have to cover with mana

[woven steeple]

So just looking for thoughts there.

[vocal kelp]

I think it might be a fair tradeoff tbh, but I think it's specifically egregious on a couple chars that would just need compensation buffs

jin can use lmb's to get around

[sharp olive]

If we consider KP a melee, i'm not having any issue

[vocal kelp]

brall when he uses his mobility covers grandiose distance

but felix and KP are kind of just dead

if they don't secure the kill

because they run oom

which wasn't an issue in the prior patch

[subtle rapids]

I feel like it's both, build depth is lost and it generally makes them weaker.

If I'm playing Felix, I have to build some kind of mana item to compensate, but Felix really does need double blades since his base numbers are pretty bad, and he needs sustain if you're playing double blades to make up for poor durability.

Can't build double vamp because you need mana, can't build mana blade because you lose sustain and durability, so that leaves you with Greed to cover all bases, or going a Mana Helm which neuters your damage. (really Felix ideally should be building a helm but in his current state that isn't realistically viable)

I think ultimately mana isn't an option, rather a requirement.

[hard condor]

I think it would make thematic sense for felix to regen mana when igniting enemies and kp to get mana when dealing backshots

[vocal kelp]

I also feel that way on ghost since he's kind of a mid-rangey get in there "ranged" char

[lost dune]

just let all hunters gain (probably) non-stacking mana regen when landing abilities

[vocal kelp]

just loses the build depth on those certain chars since I'm forced to mana item

[sharp olive]

i'm fine with it as a KP player tbh. It needs more awareness and consitency but at least it's time to see who are actually good on KP now lol

[unique cedar]

I wouldn't say ability so much as reliability, melees should have a lot of expression in the maintenance of melee range, but currently the inverse is true and it's hard for ranged to retain the gap

[hard condor]

true, imo everyone should have a unique mana gain mechanic

[lost dune]

no, not a unique mechanic
literally just a baseline feature
you land an ability, you regenerate X mana per second for Y seconds

[sharp olive]

but every hunter have a complete kit so it couldn't work

[hard condor]

Id like a more unique approch then that but would be a pretty easy fix

[warped birch]

Melee vs range right now is just Melee has to play perfectly and Range has room for mistakes. At least I think Melee should be able to gain mana by landing abilities so they dont get gassed. If they land everything and don't get a kill they are sitting ducks, while ranged can still hammer them

[lost dune]

if replacing "hit LMB to regain 20 mana" from a hunter makes them incomplete then idk maybe the hunter has other issues

[unkempt fossil]

I think Mana return on hitting abilities should not be a universal thing, mana should be something you have to consider, not a reward for hitting things. I think if anything, numbers just need to be adjusted on a hunter to hunter bases to make sure it doesn't feel bad

[subtle rapids]

I agree with Major

It's a case-by-case thing

[lost dune]

mana should be something you have to consider, not a reward for hitting things
it'd be something you have to consider as to not spam abilities w/o hitting

[subtle rapids]

some hunters, especially KP, got it pretty bad

[woven steeple]

Roger.

Makes sense.

[unkempt fossil]

I think mana regen should be something that is unique to certain hunters

[lost dune]

i'd argue that mana should be unique to certain hunters at that point but eh

[vocal kelp]

Mana is no longer mana, it's the energy system from league

[subtle rapids]

wanna add to this a tiny bit: its mostly a problem of a few outliers, not the system as a whole

I'd argue KP had it the worst where he's sorta pigeonholed into some mana

[vocal kelp]

the only issue is in league you regen energy all the time even during combat

[lost dune]

i'd argue that [GENERIC UNIVERSAL RESOURCE NAME] should be unique to certain hunters at that point but eh
fixed it, then

[vocal kelp]

in this game u don't so your SoL

[sharp olive]

This is closer than energy league tbh https://discord.com/channels/852642429105995786/1350258130654728312 because currently you won't get any refund unless u kill someone

[hard condor]

To me character spesifc resource gain just speaks to me.
Play well in an extended fight and you get mana back.

It just whisper into my ear

Chills bro...

Of course a generic "hit ability get mana back" would be an umbrella mechanic but I feel it could cause problems. Like how much is the regen on ability hit. Does hudson rmb refund mana since its an ability. Do low cd abilities refund just their cost or more. Does elluna heal give mana back, what about ult?

I feel it would be more logical to give everyone their own way to regen mana to encourage thoughtfull play around your hunters win cons.

Also enemies could probably starve you off mana by denying your gameplan.

[sharp olive]

even if they don't care i'm down to try to make it work with every hunter kit

[hard condor]

Also its just fun to think about that kind of stuff. How would void regen mana. Would empower give him high mana regen?

[lost dune]

would make empower relevant

but would also require re-tuning of empower numbers to not get empower off of 3-4 LMB

[hard condor]

Could have it like regular lmb regens some mana but empower is the real goal for ability spam

[lost dune]

regular lmb self-slows so no ty

[unkempt fossil]

Gettign mana back on hitting abilities is such a problematic answer to a lot of different hunters

[hard condor]

Hit a big damage combo empower and now your mana is regening

[hard condor]

Hudson infinite mana generator with rmb

[warped birch]

When is hudson and jin skin

I need ETA

[hard condor]

Hudson mankini skin when

[woven steeple]

I’ll be back in 20ish, finishing up another team thing!

[arctic wadi]

Imagine hudson with bikini and a vampiric helmet

[hard condor]

😵‍💫

[sharp olive]

sleep paralysis demon kind of shit

[hard condor]

Atleast rhe sleep paralysis demon wont leave me 😔

[worldly yarrow]

I think it’s also the reason Why on Oath sometimes you get caught by projectiles even if you pressed your shield. The shield is working properly if you’re on the ground, but once you are in the air or even if you only just jumped, some projectiles pass through the shield (but I guess it goes below it). I have this prob on Oath since the glide/spike Height bug exists, so it’s prob related. It feels your ability on the ground can hit players (and not Oath shield somehow) on the entire Z axis
@woven steeple maybe it helps

Also does anyone has a link to the survey for the trio playtest? Can’t find it

[uneven birch]

Will the fireside chat talk about the supporter packs? Website says they're suppose to be gone march 2025

[worldly yarrow]

Jin doesn’t need mana item Btw. Tried my best to be oom, it’s just never happening

[raven isle]

Any plans for felix rn?

[sharp olive]

idk if u had the chance to check my request here btw https://discord.com/channels/852642429105995786/1351814786014249032 About a little QoL change

[raven isle]

Like removing the self bump on his shift?

[surreal aspen]

I'm not sure if it's really an issue now, but when melee hunters are too good at sticking to ranged hunters it's usually around melee hunters having so much mobility that dashing away is the only response to that mobility because any defensive tool that's not a dash is too slow to respond to their mobility without a really good read and/or commitment. Furthermore, these hunters tend to have more dashes than you, so your ability to play around their mobility becomes extremely hard. Brall is historically the most prominent case of this since his mobility is so high, his baseline durability is so high, and he has tools like his LMB knockback and his ult invincibility to stick to targets better, but Jin has had the problem in the past and Felix tends to showcase this problem at lower levels a lot.

Now, melees have mana issues that keep them from sticking their targets at all. They need big risks to get to their targets and if they don't play perfectly they die because the movement economy that made them good at sticking to targets cannot be used anymore without putting them out of mana. The interaction will probably hop back and forth between melees stick too well and melees can't stick if all you tune is mana.

I don't think it's a problem with melees being too good at sticking to targets because these melees often times need the tools to stick to targets to function as characters. I think the issue is that most ranged hunters don't really have meaningful ways to interact with melee hunters: Shrike had only 1 dash and a very delayed hard CC, Hudson realistically has nothing once his wires are destroyed, Void only has RMB to use on reaction since his dash is so slow and brings enemies with him, etc. I feel like giving some hunters better reactive defensive options and/or buffing some existing CC options to work faster would work wonders to make the melee vs ranged dynamic feel more fair for both sides.

[woven steeple]

Ok! Back.

Whoa - reading now. Hahah

[pine fable]

I'm at work so I won't be able say too much, but honestly looking very forward to trios and just direction of vive. Hoping the continued tweeks and adjustments continue moving us forward! Mana i feel I've adjusted to and like having it be a resource I need to think about as well.

I will say, one thing i really wanted yo talk about was in reguards to resets. I feel resets dont give equal value to all hunters where for some the shift reset doesnt do as mych. An idea i really liked that came from @subtle rapids and it was in reguards to tying it to hunters specifically. (thread in question: https://discord.com/channels/852642429105995786/1350970013393223840 )

I know there have been other threads as well, @sharp olive had a baller suggestion as well that depending on how many people up on your team it changes how much cdr on shift/health you get back.

I would love to maybe see a "more equal field" when it comes to benefits of resets. On beebo for example it doesn't feel as strong compared to Felix

[unkempt fossil]

Welcome back!

After playing a bit, I do hope that hudson get's looked at for counterplay lol

[woven steeple]

Yeah, that's why we need to be pretty careful about this one.

[woven steeple]

We actually tried this internally and made different knock engines for different Hunters. It resulted in it being pretty difficult to understand what the success criteria was for each Hunter / why they were amped.

[unkempt fossil]

Yea, I think it's mainly just early game, cause, it feels like if an enemy has a hudson early and you dont, you just kinda lose

[woven steeple]

Also felt like I was getting notes around Felix and Kingpin in particular feeling oppressive, too. (The other reason I asked.) But maybe this goes too far.

[woven steeple]

Totally.

[pine fable]

Very interesting! Sounds sick that yall tried a similar idea though. In my head I just thought it would be another passive and would play into further depth of understanding hunter's/match ups.

It just feels like rn some hunters value a lot more from the reset/health then others and it's the only thing that I find frusrsting when it comes to recent additions

[cedar lodge]

i just came to say happy birthday jess!

[uneven birch]

Summer Saros skin please thank you 🙏👀❤️

[vocal kelp]

They are, but mana being the gate I don't think is the answer because it just feels horrible

that's just how it feels to me

[woven steeple]

I'm not sure if it's really an issue now
Read this, and wept happy tears.

But I do think we've found that getting the movement economy "right" is a narrow road. Agree that melees need gap closers to compete with ranged characters. I'd also say that those gap closers should probably feel earned/require taking risk. That there's a range in melee hunters now that feels more appropriate makes me think we can address the Hunters that are on the lower end, vs. giving more tools immediately to other Hunters that have sharp strengths and weaknesses (like Shrike) first - but we have talked improving her escape before.

[sharp olive]

to me, the main reason that makes KP potentially too oppresive, is due to it's cooldown, especially with double tech.
i think the way to balance this is more about nerfing overall cdr or his cd. But that would also make cdr mandatory on him.

For example, i love playing double blade KP, i have high CDs but i'm lethal, and even if i don't have any mana after my combo it doesn't matter if i achieved my flank. but i don't have the luxury of a 4sec slam, that mean i'm waaaay more vulnerable

PS: In my most honest opinion, double tech ruins the game balance.

[woven steeple]

Yeah, curious if folks would trade higher CDs for slightly better mana gain on Kingpin. Would still result in forced inaction, but maybe it feels better?

[unkempt fossil]

Shrike, Weaknesses?

What

[woven steeple]

Lol.

[frank narwhal]

[woven steeple]

Looks for the scrim teams.

[distant tangle]

Its been run
me mira and zekken sometimes had fun running shrike
But rarely when it mattered a lot sadly haha

[woven steeple]

Nice. I always heard it was hard to run Shrike generally.

[distant tangle]

Its mostly just that shrike is pretty easy to deal with esp with multiple teams around

and she's pretty easy to bully

[woven steeple]

Yeah, makes sense.

[subtle rapids]

Not a KP main, but do dabble in it, I feel that it'd feel better as you have more understanding and feel over how much you can use your cooldowns over mana, since mana fluctuates way more.

And also promotes build diversity

[arctic surge]

MB has seen pretty big success recently after creating a play style around shrike's advantages

cc @calm snow

[frank narwhal]

I’m very late to this convo… ummm let’s see…
Mana changes: I think this concept is an improvement for sure. It is felt very differently on different hunters so some tweaks might be nice to even the playing field for those suffering the most and who feel forced to build mana. For Celeste I think it feels great. I can still build double tech but I find that tech + mana has its own value and purpose other than getting bad random rolls. On elluna I struggled much more not building mana (especially early) so I did feel that difference there. Don’t think that feeling it more is a bad thing, but it is a noticeable difference.

Still want Celeste bug fixes plz I cry 😭

I’m very excited for trios (didn’t get to play today sadly) but the trios AND splitting of ranked and unranked is super exciting for me. This patch has felt great to play imo but I’ve only played Celeste and Elluna so my feedback revolves completely around those hunters. Overall I’m very happy! 🥰

[cedar lodge]

Splitting of ranked and unranked specifically is so needed. Feels so weird to queue knowing other people are just queueing unranked and trying to hunt down the ranked players for fun to give them -68rp

So it'll be so nice when it comes

[sharp olive]

I like to either play "Shiv gameplay" on KP with the dash 4, but i need a lot of mana, or to find an angle for a true combo with double blade.

My point is, i prefer to have a 30sec cd on my hook if i know i can cast it when i want. I should get punished by missing an ability by it's long cd, not by the mana cost. because currently even when i succeed with my combo i'm oom wich is only not punishing if have the chance to get the kill (and not stolen by a teammate)

[calm snow]

HI THAT ME

ill read in a sec

game is super snowbally rn so u can use shrikes early game opness to get gigafed

and win

late game weaknesses dont matter when ur omegafed

[arctic surge]

we have our myth and shrike carry early game, play to feed our brall/joule so we can snowball mid game and play for the other 3 non-shrike heroes

being able to contest objectives confidently makes snowballing a lot more consistent

[surreal aspen]

That's good to hear.

I would just like to mention that I feel like hunters with lower mobility should have better defensive tools that aren't dashes (mainly CC abilities) to keep the game's roster diverse, to add more diversity in how matchups play out, and to make gameplay more dynamic between different hunters. Using Shrike as an example, it might be better for her long-term if her RMB hit sooner (at least at close ranges) instead of improving her shift so that she has more meaningful interactions between short-range hunters that gives her both more risk/reward between which option she chooses (if she has both up), more gameplay when defending, and generally more 1vX potential since she has more defensive tools to play on the back foot.

[woven steeple]

Yeah, think this is a growing preference on the team too.

[calm snow]

my take on the shrike thing is that id rather her be able to consistently 2 tap people than her have more defensive options. high risk high reward champs are a lot more fun when the buffs make the reward higher as opposed to making the risk less

if that makes sense

[sharp olive]

it's kinda the same for KP to me, high cd but when u hit, it's deserved

[calm snow]

kp hit hook = guaranteed kill
shrike hit 2 shots = people live sometimes 😡

[unkempt fossil]

Hard agree

[calm snow]

its easy to look at shrikes obvious weaknesses and say thats why shes weak but she was designed to function with them but her damage just isnt high enough for the tradeoff to be worth it since champs like brall and beebo can build no tank items and just live 2 hits anyways. or just anyone with decent armor other than myth

[sharp olive]

i just feel like she already struggle when someone is hugging her, reducing her dps at close range make it super hard to clutch. It makes the character even more frustrating for a new player when you got jump on by a Brall

[arctic surge]

shrike should 2 shot non tanks if they are of even or close power levels

[sharp olive]

Why Saros doesn't have the same with his RMB, same for Ghost ? both of them have tools to knockback ennemies. Shrike can only tempo and try to dash out

[arctic surge]

only time she shouldn't is like if they are +3 levels above u

I dont think she needs more defensive tools that's kind of her point

[sharp olive]

50% reduced dps is too much, maybe something like 35-40% could help her

[sharp olive]

yeah i agree, but hitting every shots and not killing someone just because he's closer just feels bad (?)

[arctic surge]

I feel like that's part of her counterplay

otherwise she just wouldn't be pushable

[calm snow]

non tanks = no tank items. i think even kp oath gunner should die in 2 hits if they are double blade

[sharp olive]

Not KP due to it's passive tho

[calm snow]

currently double blade brall beebo gunner kingpin and I THINK oath all live 2 hits from shrike purple items vs white armor. all except oath live auto + ult too

[unkempt fossil]

I genuinely think Shrike is really good, just hard at higher MMR

[sharp olive]

And the dash reset patch made it worse

[unkempt fossil]

Eh, she still has a lot of strengths

[sharp olive]

at high elo scrims, if you have to choose between Myth and Shrike who do you take ?

[unkempt fossil]

Depends on the player and comfort level, and I dont really think in Scrim thoughts

Not the biggest fan of that level of sweat

[arctic surge]

they serve very different roles

you can take both easily

[surreal aspen]

I was just using her as an example since she was already in the conversation.

[high pollen]

ppl are just so mega adhd these days man and im saying that having adhd. having all characters just boring and makes shit even more overwhelming for many. For ur improvement anyway ur best bet is to only play a few anyway and rank up and game has so few champs at the moment hut they can always expand on additional ways to get champs later

But devs have in more than one or even two ways disconected themselved from me and if i were to ask ppl i got into game but left is likely to be similar answer (unless they simply got bored or other game was more fun which is fine ofc)

Ill just throw out there that supports in league still HAVE to be too strong and ppl playing them get inflated BECAUSE least amount of ppl play support so then, especiallt with devs coming from league im just entirely lost in the sauce as to why we didnt have prio on more supports rather than more dps along the lines of how the other ones ply

[red hull]

Hi i have an idea how to make hudson more mobile while keeping his dmg Output in check- the idea is That his dash gets a second one on lvl 2 or 3 but using it will disable RMB for the cd of the dash. The idea here being is hudson can dash in like before but if he fails to engage correctly to get a kill he can only dash out disabling his RMB.

[hard condor]

Im going to be honest doesnt really sound fun to play with.

[subtle rapids]

Hudson used to have two shift charges but it ended up making the guy who was all about controlling his own space control both his space and your space

too much mobility for the walking turret character

[red hull]

I meant for only the second charge of the dash to deactivate lmb for x seconds - so his first dash would remain unchanged

[fierce crystal]

I mean it'd help a lot but I'd way rather they do something else. Woukd be a pretty boring way to fix Hudson imo.

[fiery tapir]

Having barely played Hudson, my clearly deeply informed opinion is his ult should fire faster, then leash the target so they can't move forward, and direct damage reels in the chain so it tightens it to a certain extent. Also jetpacking off carries them off. Still get a reel in and mulch on execution threshold. Maybe a reset if you get a mulch. Surely exactly what he needs with no downsides

[unique cedar]

just a thought that came to mind but, I think trios could kinda stay at 10 teams actually in light of the tighter storm, perhaps even tightening said storm further still to duos levels

[fiery tapir]

I disagree with furthering map narrowing.

[high pollen]

without any map changes i agree

Didnt rlly see apoint to make it 12

Just try 10 first

also player count is so mega low now trying to keep lobby size like that just for the sake of players while u can just keep same amount of teams which doesnt change that much

[warped birch]

I think it's fine to have 12 teams. 6 more players isn't going to drown the map

[high pollen]

But extra teams means extra shit happening on the map for what reason exactly

and gain new players have to adapt and learn more new shit, adapt to slightly different strats while they havent even learned any cos they figuring out the damn consumables