Female characters are pretty sexist :/

[fervent rock]

People who support changes in that way are the minority (at least in the Discord), which is why we don’t see many toxic people from that side—there are just fewer of them overall (toxic and non-toxic)

[somber hollow]

There are crazy ppl everywhere

[lean stream]

It's crazy to me that someone can get angry over people wanting the game being more inclusive haha but that's just my opinion I guess

[lean stream]

Hmm well in my experience with this topics outside of games, a lot of women have gotten very tired of educating men on this topics

[somber hollow]

I mean, there is a lot of bad air around inclusivity due to how a lot of media is made these days

Like the new dragon age game for example

[lean stream]

Because that's putting the responsability on women once again haha

once more rather

[lean stream]

Yes!

and that's why I'm passionate about this topics as @fervent rock is saying it can be perceived that they are less

but I don't think that's the case

angry people are just louder

And men usually have less consequences expressing their opinions out loud anywhere

[chilly compass]

I've been trying to let this particular iteration of this topic cool and die. Largely because the phrasing has geared people to be particularly confrontational. While this hasn't even been the longest version of the debate around female character design, the fact it seems hostile to devs (I don't think it intends to be) has made casual engagement here (emotes) be the most negative, whereas more positively phrased versions of the same point (I hope we see more variation in the female cast) have had opposite emote results.

So while there are people that don't care about this topic, or who do care in the opposite direction because they think diversity is ruining games or is some insidious agenda (those are all different groups), the notion things are slanted to such an extent is largely the product of this particular post.

[lean stream]

I think the two reasons you are giving in the opposite direction as you mentioned are what I think creates the tension and confrontation

When the main big reason this topics keep coming up is that: it is an important issue (for some might not be the most crucial and that is fine) but it's being dismissed as an agenda

The way this topics are perceived are usually into the "I can't stand a sexy character for once" rather than "why is every character made to turn on people?"

[somber hollow]

Welp, it’s cus sex sells, what’s the oldest profession in the world after all

It’s a usually safer bet to make a cute character

[lean stream]

That's a very interesting statement

You can read this so I don't have to explain if you want of course

It was shared by a user that really has put the time into the matter on my thread

I'm also intrigued how those type of statements don't get any clown emojis as much, genuinely curious

[somber hollow]

Will give it a read later, that’s quite long

[chilly compass]

A: no one is against sexy or cute characters. This chat wasn't even revived by Eva's pending release because her sexualization is clearly intended and in line with her character. It just quickly turns into an excuse to only have one type of sex, applied constantly to one type of character, even when it doesn't make sense.

B: Devs have said they don't want that idiom used as an excuse to shut down all debate about their design choices.

[lean stream]

Can you share where the devs have said that? I was trying to find something yesterday but no luck

[chilly compass]

It's like a year or two old on an ancient thread that went even longer than this one. I'll see if I can't dig it up.

[lean stream]

Thanks!!

[wispy gale]

This one? #1182956886878855238 message

[lean stream]

Thank you!! Very professional answer imo

[chilly compass]

just found it myself in the archives.

thanks for digging that up

But yeah, devs are aware of stuff, but also there was a reminder to A: be civil (something both sides have failed on at times since), and B: arc towards a more positive and aspirational tone to the feedback.

[arctic prism]

It’s honestly so much focus applied to something that at this point isn’t a major issue, especially not in supervive.

[hollow crater]

Some understand and most simply dont unfortunately

[edgy hinge]

It does bother me that "making design decisions that favour generic appeal over being consistent with the character and their story leads to less interesting characters" never seems to get across, though

It feels like "it's just about diversity / inclusivity" is used as a strawman when Any other argument is made
(not to imply that inclusivity is not worthwhile ... it's just not the only reason to criticize the character designs)
My academic side is curious as to why that happens lol

[arctic prism]

I suspect a few reasons. One, people are tribal and love heuristics. It saves a lot of time and effort to just make blanket decisions on a topic without debating it to death. And to be fair, some topics absolutely are not worth the effort to debate every little detail. You don’t have a three hour long debate with your spouse/bf/gf over what cereal is best.

I think because of that, it you’ll get some people who have no real opinion on the topic jumping in to help their “tribe”. Usually because they have no significant interest, they’ll just repeat the talking points they’ve already heard. I think this is sometimes out of convenience so they don’t have to debate it to death, and sometimes because they have a poor grasp on the topic.

I also think that often times a lot of these arguments are sort of proxy battles for other social issues. I’d wager that most of the people who typed more than a couple paragraphs in this thread have strong opinions on related social/political issues. For those, it’s not really about game design as much as it is about making game design affirm their worldviews.

[chilly compass]

It's moralized both ways. Folk who want more variety sometimes see the lack of variety as symptomatic of the industry disregarding women or reducing women to sex appeal, so arguing against it can feel like arguing against larger issues behind it - that's where we got this topic's title. It saw the lack of female diversity as devs unwittingly feeding into narrow bands of accepted womanhood stemming from larger forces in the industry and society.

Conversely, some of the most passionate critics, including some that started with "it doesn't matter/I don't care" approaches (not all of them, mind), turn out to support reactionary movements in gaming space that view progressive design as eroding some inherent quality of fun - with some gradient between folks who are nostalgic for some past era of gaming and think emphasis on messaging and issues directly or indirectly degraded the quality, and people with a larger culture war bone to pick. And because the Internet works the way it does, everyone is primed for the most extreme version of the opposite side.

[edgy hinge]

That's very well put (to both)
It's disappointing that principles of character design rarely gets discussed as a separate point, but I suppose one also can't really decouple those two issues (since there's presumably a causal relationship)

Also the other tendency of the internet to flatten out nuances doesn't help lol ("I have some critiques but like it overall" somehow reads as "I hate this thing unconditionally")
(Edit: sorry added that somewhat bc I noticed the new "I like the female designs thread" which ... I don't think anyone said they were strictly bad)

[worthy sandal]

I know people built like that irl to be fair

It’s also quite interesting how sex appeal is always tied when female characters have larger features, obviously this character is intended to have sex appeal but is them just being thicker is what is considered sex appeal?

[chilly compass]

I'm not sure I'd call Eva particularly thicker than standard - her sex appeal factor comes in on presentation and costuming. You absolutely can use thicker proportions to emphasize sex appeal by leaning into curviness, but just as often you get characters that are largely slim but with enough curve to emphasize.

not critiquing the route they went, just not sure I'd call this terribly different than say, Celeste's body type.

[arctic prism]

I honestly can’t tell her body type apart from the other characters except for her boobs.

If anything she might even be skinnier than the others, who are already built like sticks.

[worthy sandal]

I get what u mean definitely, but also I’m sure a lot of people will attribute the sex appeal to her being thicker in the butt and having bigger boobs

[hollow crater]

boobs lowkey too saggy like she has been milked for two month straight

[chilly compass]

vuli what the heck

[hollow crater]

am i right or am i right tho

[bronze coral]

No? They're just weighty and actually beholden to gravity

[hollow crater]

ye on this one is ok actually

[bronze coral]

Also there is a delightful pressure shadow where her boobs are a little 2 big for her cups

[hollow crater]

idk first picture i saw of her it looked tlly bad to me idk

cant find it

[green agate]

You mean the same way that Concord did it and did great? Or how Marvel Rivals is thriving off of their characters? You have a damn talking rabbit, where is your realism there?

[hollow crater]

Tired of inclusion being forced rather than it naturally fitting the lore or envoirement, or vision the game has

most ppl simply dont give a shit when it makes sense for characters to be or look the way they are

[edgy hinge]

Ah, my reminder that engaging in these threads is utterly pointless )=

"But what about ..." that thing that's already been discussed several times?

Also: diversity strawman!
#1337551950425882694 message

[slate vessel]

if you're going to walk into a thread like this can you act as though you have actually read it? you mention 2 games but not the one that obviously inspired them and how the women there actually get equal standing in variety

[wild plume]

holy shit this ode to mental illness is still going

[clear furnace]

Wow I was sure this thread would be dead by now

Controversial opinion I think it’s ok to have attractive characters :) you guys can stop arguing over stupid stuff now

[vague relic]

There's too many messages in this thread now, arguments just looping around. People are coming in hot making points that have already been debated and that people took time and energy to explain.

[chilly compass]

Unfortunately this sorta thing gets necroed by folks until they're shut down.

[hollow crater]

Because most guys care mostly about the game just being good and wont care all too much about character design but if character is hot woman its by human nature likely to be a plus. What makes women atractive for most men? Eyes, symmetrical face, not fat, etc. Literally proven and common sense by nature. Making cast of champs 50/50 men/women wont make the playerbase 50/50 men women. Ppl just gotta accept theres more ways than just one that leads to rome and besides personally being annoyed or bothered 9/10 times this shit isnt game destroying unless ur designing 9/10 heroes contradicting what people are expecting etc context matters so much more than the characters and the audience itself.

[clear galleon]

You want me to lock it for you?

[heavy tinsel]

b-b-b-but the study! the study!

[hollow crater]

whatsup

[vague relic]

I think that would be for the best

[hollow crater]

boooohhhhhhh 👎

[edgy hinge]

This is what happens when y'all ragebait and make strawmen instead of engaging in a good-faith discussion and listening to what other people are Actually saying 🙄

[hollow crater]

idm man this kinda shit is legit content to read after a bad game of league

if threads go south unlucky

next time better if op worfs it properly

otherwise who cares rlly

( )

[vague relic]

its worded factually

[hollow crater]

iq + 20 thank u sir

[vague relic]

I'm not gonna take the blame for people having kneejerk reactions to a word

[edgy hinge]

It's ragebaiting. There's no winning. I don't think there's anything useful to be said that hasn't been said already 500+ messages ago

[vague relic]

I still don't agree with the fact that it's ragebaiting, but yeah everything has been said before, let's not waste time and energy here.

[unkempt leaf]

brall being a ripped dude with no shirt lol

[hollow crater]

Yeah i want to see more hot men but with clothes on. Why are men always shown to be about muscle and strength like i feel objectified rn and im sure most of the straight men that play the game agree and will enjoy it more if it was diff frfr