Hudson is still too strong

[fathom plank]

The complaint isn't about skill or learning curve, it's just about fun.

[fiery void]

I was never saying that he actually had no downtime, just that it feels that way to be on the opposing side of him and it isn't fun to play against. Your point is true, but it doesn't invalidate my feedback.

[keen abyss]

^^^^^

holy shit

[snow coral]

Fun is subjective

[slim sun]

Whoever's less civil.

[void magnet]

?

[snow coral]

If you only care about your fun play singleplayer games

[void magnet]

Skill and learning curves are arguably more objective standards, how do you measure fun?

[fiery void]

By player feedback :D

[keen abyss]

knowing what people from all tiers of the community think

[snow coral]

Message reccieved

[keen abyss]

if shitters think hudson isn't fun

[void magnet]

Where's the objective data from this then?

[keen abyss]

and some high tiers think hudson isn't fun

[fiery void]

Games are first and foremost supposed to be fun. As Reggie Fils-Aime once said: "If it isn't fun, why bother?"

[keen abyss]

i think we have a consensus?

[void magnet]

Lmao

[snow coral]

Not all games are for everyone

[keen abyss]

ofc this isn't scientific

[void magnet]

Average climate change shill moment

Sorry i took the bait again

[snow coral]

And part of mobas is adapting your gameplan around your enemies

And that's part of macro

[fathom plank]

Fun is interesting, I find it comes from the flow state of facing and completing an appropriately difficult challenge. When every other wincon in the game isn't as much of a brick wall as Hudson, it disrupts that flow state and goes from "Oh hell yeah im popping off what do I do next" to "Oh theres a hudson."

[keen abyss]

okay, it would be really funny if everyone who disliked hudson left the game

[snow coral]

Fun is still subjective

[fiery void]

Nope, but I love this game so it is definitely for me. I wouldn't be on this thread if I didn't care for it and the community.

Games should be fun, even eSport competitive titles. If not, why are we competing? Why not compete at something we actually enjoy playing?

[void magnet]

Then if you're not having fun with the game, can i claim that the game isn't for you?

[fiery void]

See above

[keen abyss]

we are repeatedly saying that hudson is an outlier

[fathom plank]

Yeah I was replying to khopium for how to measure fun. I agree it's subjective.

[snow coral]

Then accept that adapted your plan around hudson is part of the game

[keen abyss]

if say, i hated how much half the cast was

then yeah

i would agree that this game isnt for me

[void magnet]

Why half?

[snow coral]

If a celeste slides in and ults you don't stand still amd get stunned

[keen abyss]

arbitrary number for arguments sake

[void magnet]

What basis are you basing on to determine half?

god damnit baited again

[keen abyss]

im just saying

saying a game isn't for someone because of 1/15 of the characters

isn't exactly fair

[fiery void]

These feedback/discussion forums are for talking about what we like/dislike about the game so the developers can get an insight into what is and isn't working and apply that feedback to improving the game. We can love the game as a whole and dislike the one sore thumb we have with it

[keen abyss]

honestly this thread should be renamed to

"hudson is still not fun"

[fiery void]

tru

[void magnet]

I shall now proclaim that this game is NOT fun because:

Oath is release bridgette from OW
Shrike 2 taps
Joule has an OP dash and free get out of jail card
Brall has an overloaded kit
Zeph has an ult that halves your team's HP from 2 screens away thru walls
Shiv has too many dashes
Elluna just keeps running
etc.etc.

[fathom plank]

^All of these are fun

LOL

[void magnet]

Playing against all these isn't fun!!111!

[void magnet]

Nah they ain't fun for me

[snow coral]

I agree but if is it fair that trying to fix something that isn't as bad as people make it out to be is worth ruining the longevity and long term balance of the game?

Becaue supervive in it current state

[fiery void]

I think Brall has a thread like that that also went down pretty similarly to this one.

"Brall isn't fun to play against"
"You're playing against him wrong"
"Yeah? but he isn't fun regardless"
"So just git gud"
"This game is for casual players too"
"Git gud"

[fathom plank]

If you're playing against them yeah but as them, it's the highlight moment, Every character has their strength.

[void magnet]

Bro is supporting my argument?

[snow coral]

Is the most balanced moba I have every played

[keen abyss]

okay how many hunters is this?

[fathom plank]

never said I wasn't :)

[void magnet]

Pro baiter

[fathom plank]

you could call me a master vaiter

[void magnet]

Not gonna respond to the other better baiter tho

[fiery void]

Can you stop calling people "baiters"? It's disingenuous to their thoughts and experiences with the game and what they're choosing to share in this chat. You have a differing opinion so you're belittling theirs as "bait". It's disrespectul as fuck

[snow coral]

Ayyo niko pick up my slack for me, cause I want to do my lucky numbers in f zero 99 then go to bed, let hudson skill check!

[void magnet]

Ragebait detected

[fathom plank]

LOL

[void magnet]

ee oo ee oo

[snow coral]

This I do agree with though

Even if their opinion is wrong

[void magnet]

LMFAO

[fathom plank]

Since league is often mentioned, I personally love getting stomped (in league) [perhaps also in real life] so I can learn and get better. Tbh I'm not against hudson myself. I think I just need to get better and now I'm more comfortable against him. But speaking on behalf of the majority of casual players, when they get stomped, they don't have fun. But I don't think it's constructive to disregard the way it turns them away from the game.

[void magnet]

Didn't people complain about yuumi being an afk champ

[fathom plank]

yuumi can die

respectfully

ingame

[snow coral]

Check some of my early messages in this thread I mention some strats for fighting hudson

[fathom plank]

Yeah I do agree with you. I do think discussion is still important though instead of shutting down the conversation cause clearly there's a problem if so many people are complaining

[void magnet]

Yall are still not including the context of teams into this hudson convo btw

If anyone responds this isn't a team game im done

[snow coral]

Nah let me sit on my teamate and healbot them

[fiery void]

It is a subjective experience about fun had in a video-game. It cannot be wrong because it is subjective. We can have differing opinions with both being correct.

[fathom plank]

Shieldbot*

[void magnet]

We are both wrong btw

[snow coral]

Opinions can be wrong

[slim sun]

I think that's just, like, an opinion or something

[void magnet]

Wrong

[slim sun]

Whoa......

[fiery void]

If i say "I'm not having fun" that cannot be wrong unless I am lying. I'm literally telling you I'm not having fun playing against hudson. You're going to tell me my feelings about my personal experience is wrong?

[snow coral]

No your opionions are vaild

[fiery void]

Not according to this message

[snow coral]

But opinions can be right or wrong

[fathom plank]

It was just a blanket statement

[snow coral]

Valid is different then being right or wrong

[void magnet]

Valid but wrong

[fiery void]

You're losing me man. I'm wrong that I'm not having fun? Are you in my head?

[snow coral]

If X has the opinion the earth is falt their opinion is wrong

[fathom plank]

I do agree with Miles here

[snow coral]

But they are entiled to jave their opinion

Some opinions can be wrong

But their still allowed to have them and feel as thought their are valid

Because if we didn't we would have free will

Receiving validation or agreement with an opinion isnt right or wrong

[fathom plank]

It's just that people aren't having fun, when Trent and I would have fun in overcoming the challenge posed by hudson, that's evidently not for the majority. And majority should be considered.

This sort of thing needs time to air out I think. Just a long period of both learning from the playerbase as well as adjustments to settle where both sides are happy.

[keen abyss]

there are different types of opinions

i would say you're claiming that it is a fact that the earth is flat

the people here are saying its an claim of personal preference that hudson isn't fun

[snow coral]

Facts and opinions are two different things

Your opinion or theory can claim to be a fact, doesn't make it factual

[keen abyss]

correct

we're not doing that here

[fathom plank]

bro go do your f zero and head to bed, opinion talk isn't worth your beauty sleep

[slim sun]

I think we're losing the plot here. I can say it's a fact that Hudson is overperforming right now and that it's a pretty common opinion that he's an unfun character to fight against.

[keen abyss]

i think if the devs agreed the idea that "the game is not for you if you dislike hudson", then the game is dying in a few months

[snow coral]

Hudson over preforming due to increased pressence is difference then actually preforming

[fiery void]

That is all I was trying to say. He is overperforming. He is not fun for me to play against.

I understand there is counterplay to him, but it is not fun to me.

[snow coral]

Lol doesnt nerf ahri dispite her having at 70% pressencr pro play

[keen abyss]

how does having an increased presence mean he is not overperforming?

[fiery void]

Back that up with stats please. Otherwise it's just conjecture.

[snow coral]

We don't have the long term stats to have a solid baseline

He got nerfed what like this week?

[keen abyss]

valorant left some stupidly high pick rate agents in the game for quite some time too

high pick rate in pro play doesn't mean its overtuned, especially for a normal player

[fathom plank]

That's just cause pro play is a vacuum that doesn't indicate soloq well. Ahri is a super safe pick / control mage that just thrives in coordinated play. Understand the point but it's not the right stat to point at I think

[fathom plank]

But yes this ^^

[keen abyss]

if we balanced a game around pro play making everyone have the same pick rate

then basically the game will become a mess

[fiery void]

We don't. But we have current stats that show his numbers are still very high after the nerfs.

[snow coral]

They need to look at more then just numbers them need a heat map of how fights with hudsons look

See how people are actually doing when fighting hum

[fathom plank]

Yeah I think the issue boils down to the grinders who love to get better at a competitive level against those who just wanna chill which is totally valid. Hudson is good if we want to see supervive going towards a more competitive level where the whole playerbase needs to level up, but inherently in a BR I think making it easier for the more casual playerbase to enjoy the game is better for longetivity so that the game lasts long enough for the playerbase to get better in the long run

[fiery void]

We're not looking for what specifically happens in the fights in this conversation. We're just stating that he is overperforming period. The micro of the fights does not matter in the context of this chat or what we are saying about Hudson.

[snow coral]

I promise you if those heat maps exist it will show teams walking into his contolled zone and getti g mowed down

And that's not an issue with hudson

[slim sun]

I honestly don't think SUPERVIVE can really succeed as a competitive MOBA compared to the rest- I don't know who I'm up against until after our team's draft and there aren't enough tools to radically counter character kits like in most MOBAs

[void magnet]

Stats show the former yes, where are the stats for the latter?

Could you run a script to analyze all threads and comments of Hudson fun vs unfun in this server at least?

[fiery void]

read this chat and the discord and see the countless messages talking about how unfun he is to play against.

[snow coral]

Because every non support character can counter every character

[keen abyss]

supervive doesn't really meld well as a competitive game imo? like its literal mechanism of picking chars isn't cohesive to a comp game

[void magnet]

Not stats, and funny coming from you since you demanded them just above

[snow coral]

Because supervive is thr most balanced moba that's currently available

[void magnet]

Stats for me but not for thee

[keen abyss]

i wouldn't exactly call its other features competitive though

[snow coral]

Every character aside from elluna and zeph can answer every other character if the player makes good dicision making and adequate game skill

[keen abyss]

does fortnite have a competitive scene?

[void magnet]

Why aside from elluna and zeph tho?

They have answers to every other character too lol

[snow coral]

Their awnsers are supporting their team

[void magnet]

dash root dash back is close to as risk free as you can get

[keen abyss]

didn't you previously say that this is a team game

[fathom plank]

Competitive doesn't have to mean esports coordination level competitive btw, but more a personal honing in skill and the expectation to match with equally skilled players who know what they're doing in higher elos

[keen abyss]

are there no two team comps where one completely demolishes the other

[void magnet]

?

[keen abyss]

yeah supervive is kinda failing at the latter right now but i expect it to get better

[snow coral]

Elluna's ability to 100-0 hunters is the equivalent of killing kyle with a wiffle bat

[keen abyss]

ive been matched with diamonds who have comms off

[void magnet]

By supporting you mean throwing one of the furthest AOE CCs in the game, LMB once, and then halving the entire enemies team's HP thru walls 2 screens away while knocking them back AND healing your team (zeph), then yes i guess you are supporting your team

[fiery void]

I was asking for the proverbial "Hudson over performing due to increased presence " that TRENTJH was trying to use to diffuse Hudson's winrate actually being reflective of his current balance.

The stats you're asking for are available and not made up if you felt the need to actually gather them. I have counted over 20 unique names in the last 2 weeks talking about hudson being unfun in various chats. If you'd like I can start tallying them up as I go but I'd rather not wade through hours of convos at this very moment.

[void magnet]

That's why I said use a script? And i guess trentjh doesn't need to provide you stats either if he doesnt feel like it too

[snow coral]

I'm saying I have yet to see a moderately or higher skilled moba player complain about hudson oncr

[fathom plank]

Interesting how this hudson chat gives me an insight into every issue players have in supervive

[void magnet]

If the devs fix all of hudson's bugs after the next nerf then maybe they're based afterall

[snow coral]

Like how my issue is that people don't understand that moderately or better skilled moba players think supervive is exceptionally well balanced

[keen abyss]

is jnemo "a moderately or higher skilled moba player"?

[snow coral]

Idk

If they played league I've never seen them in my GM+ lobbies when I played

[fathom plank]

@fiery void @snow coral You're both right. At higher levels, players already have the mindset to just coordinate or find a counter, and if they die, just get better. I do think it's well balanced. Miles isn't denying that, he's just saying it's not fun.

The mindset / time required to get to that level of adaptability is something that needs to be carried over from prior MOBA games, and that just isn't for everyone, but disregarding everyone underneath that level where seeking improvement is a given, isn't constructive. Miles speaks for the majority of the current playerbase when he just says it's not fun.

[snow coral]

And I think the majority needs to improve

[keen abyss]

you're like top 0.001% of active league players?

[fathom plank]

Yeah so we won't hit a compromise unless time is given. I think having adjustments to making playing against hudson more bearable for the short term is good so that the playerbase can have time to improve

[snow coral]

I haven't touched league inyears but when I quit I hit GM

[fathom plank]

Then once the playerbase is better, bring it back up.

[keen abyss]

^

[snow coral]

The only nerf I would accept to hudson would be a minor range nerf

Or a buff to shike and myths range

[fathom plank]

And this chat is good for suggestions for adjustments from direct player feedback. I also agree with minor range nerf. I want hudson to be a moving death zone because that's his draw. It's something exciting for hudson players to just mow people down.

[slim sun]

I think they oughta rework his RMB to be an energy mechanic like Brall's, give him a new RMB, and tie the ramping damage to on-hit

[snow coral]

Yes let hudson skillcheck basic skills

[slim sun]

That way he doesn't melt people for free

[snow coral]

You understand the wind up on top of the killed turning speed yeah?

[fathom plank]

I think if people walk into hudson's zone, that's not free. They've already made a mistake. But something that could indicate that range better would be nice

[snow coral]

The only reason its free is because people run into the line

[void magnet]

GrandMaster 0.052%

[fathom plank]

Like imagine if when hudson revs up, theres a small red circle that shows his range. it'll tell people to gtfo

[void magnet]

Just revert him to the nextfest version at this point

[fathom plank]

Because his LMB is so strong I think it deserves the reminder

[snow coral]

Mf you can hear it wind up ftom halfway across thr map

The reminder is audio

[keen abyss]

myth range is already stupid long

coming from a myth main

[fathom plank]

Some people play without sound and others, even with sound, disregard it LOL

[snow coral]

Oh I know

[fathom plank]

It's just that visual indicators are more

[void magnet]

That's on them

[fathom plank]

noriceable

Yeah that's what I'm saying though, it's a learning thing

I think making it easier to learn how to play against him

would do good

[void magnet]

I can say some players i play with look like they're playing with their eyes closed too LMFAOOOOOOOO

[snow coral]

I've played so manyobbys where my team throws because they ingored sounds from a close team ran off picked a other fight and then lost to getting 3re partied by the team we heard esilerlier

[fathom plank]

Yeah so lets give em both LOL

[snow coral]

That's why I think that the community has a skill issue

Something basic like that

[void magnet]

Tbf you can literally see a jetstream of purple bullets btw

[fathom plank]

I agree, which is why I think making it easier for them to learn is a good idea

[snow coral]

Better guides and hunter rundowns would help

[fathom plank]

Yess that's a good suggestion

[snow coral]

Like there's alotin the learn tab

[fathom plank]

But it's not very intuitive

[snow coral]

And at frist launch

But people ignore it

And that's on them

I bet you

[void magnet]

Just play nidhogg's beginner video on 2x speed lol

Literally all basics covered in 15mins

Even a lot of the small details too

[snow coral]

That 70% of hudson complainers can't recite a single tip from the first launch guide

[fathom plank]

I love nidhogg's videos. He's always limittesting.

But anyways everything I've ever said is invalid cause I'm a void player and I'm playing an entirely different game LMFAO

[snow coral]

Because as a society weve stoped valuing desire to educate and learn

[slim sun]

The idea that it's a majority skill issue for players to deal with Hudson, a low skill floor character, seems somewhat disingenuous

[snow coral]

When the skill issue is a basic skill

[leaden briar]

Gunner is a dead broken because Oath also is.
Close the argue now

[keen abyss]

then clearly the basic skill isn't as basic then it seems

you're a top 0.052 league player

it may be basic for you

[fiery void]

I think people just want to kick back and relax after working 8+ hours/day. Not every activity in life has to be a learning one, leisure activites especially.

[void magnet]

yeah that and we promote mediocrity

[snow coral]

If the skill is not intentionally getting yourself killed I would consider it basic

[void magnet]

They should just nerf oath and see how hudson performs after that lmao

[slim sun]

I dunno, I think it seems facetious to say a low skill floor character should be overperforming in the name of skill, isn't that promoting a kind of mediocrity?

[keen abyss]

imo the first thing they need to nerf is amplifier

because that affects the balance of every single hunter in the game

[leaden briar]

Thats What i think too.
Both are not healthy for the game.

[keen abyss]

then go from there

[leaden briar]

KP

[keen abyss]

for the hunters that don't use amplifier, they're still affected by not having to deal with amp users

[snow coral]

Also here's my thing. I am objectively bad a videogames. I just learn from my mistakes and educate myself to be better. So when I see an issue that i learned from and developed skills to solve it

It means other people aren't

[keen abyss]

being a grandmaster in league

you're bad at video games?

[snow coral]

Yes

But I learn and make effort to be better then what I am

[leaden briar]

Its just maths, individual performances have Nothin to do with What is broken or not

[snow coral]

So if I can spend the 30 seconds it takes to learn how to fight hudson

That means other people are choosing not to

Amd they'd rather complain

[leaden briar]

Take lol as an exemple, Why was skarner picked or ban every single Game during worlds ?

I bet you know the answer

[snow coral]

Pre rework post rework

[leaden briar]

? 2 month ago

[snow coral]

So post

I quit long before that

[slim sun]

He said during Worlds though, so it doesn't really matter bringing up a rework that wasn't in effect at the time

[leaden briar]

Still

[snow coral]

He got reworked and got one of the best gank and lanes assist abilities

[leaden briar]

What do we argue about tho, my question was pretty simple

Why was he picked or banned every single Game

[snow coral]

Same thing happened woth warwick

And urgot

And swain

They reworked the champs and made them overtuned af becuase it looks good on stage

Which in turn gets people to buy skins for op champd making profit

So that's why I'm saying let hudson skill check the basic skills

[keen abyss]

pretty curious ngl

i don't play league

but banning a character every round is an anomaly

[leaden briar]

I can say im over the basic skills

And hudson is broken

[leaden briar]

Exactly

And What happens With gunner and oath in scrims ?

They force the meta

[snow coral]

I would disagree with you if you're over the basic skill and he's stull skillchecking you

[keen abyss]

dude is legend+

[leaden briar]

But…

[fiery void]

It usually happens when a character is too strong to not play. You either pick him with first pick of the draft, or ban him so the other team doesn't first pick him. It happens pretty often. It's usually a sign of significant balance issues

[leaden briar]

Thanks a lot Miles

[keen abyss]

if a legend doesn't have basic skills and "game not for them", then the game is fucking dead

[snow coral]

You know when I die to hudson? Cause I fucked up and put myself in the cone he's controlling

[fiery void]

Dude wasn't asnwering your question, felt like I could step in lol. I'm getting bored of all the moving goalposts

[leaden briar]

Ahahhaha i felt it too

[keen abyss]

oh so he was just stupid fucking broken?

[leaden briar]

@snow coral watch the todays scrims

[snow coral]

Outsidr of my frist handfull of hudson fights outside od third parties I've haven't intentionally put myself in his kill cone

[keen abyss]

tbf i could imagine a character thats just annoying to play against and everyone banning him

[snow coral]

And you know who I stoped3 dying to

Hudosn

[fiery void]

Yep! Same thing happened last year (I think it was last year) where K'Sante, the new champion at the time, was giga-broken at all elos for months on end and was pick/ban at all competitions for MONTHs

[keen abyss]

i can also play brall and run away at sight of anyone and place second

[leaden briar]

I could certify you that you wont wipe my squad a single game out of 100 With a basic comp if we play the big 4

Because gunner is the only champ in Game that can obliterate oath

So if you refuse to pick gunner you wont ever pass Oath

[keen abyss]

isn't myth also solid against oath

[leaden briar]

Not enough

[snow coral]

If you're goal is to pass oath then you're fighting into his gameplan

[leaden briar]

The fact that gunner cant perma hit is an anomaly

Shouldnt exist in such a game

[snow coral]

If you bushwhack an oath comp they fall apart

[leaden briar]

But did you ever play a Good game ?

A stacked lobby With 6 teams in a small zone

[snow coral]

Ut bushwhacking any comp answers them

[keen abyss]

what is bushwacking

like bushcamping?

[fiery void]

passive item that makes you invis after leaving a bush. He's likely referring to bush camping.

[keen abyss]

i wouldn't call that "fun" for most players

nor viable in inner circle

[leaden briar]

Pls come over in scrim

[snow coral]

Bushcamp with and catch an OoP chacater and win 4 ve

[leaden briar]

You ll realise by yourself

That you never played a single real Game of supervive

[snow coral]

If you bushwhack an hudosn in a oath hud comp they have no fight

[keen abyss]

sitting in a bush for 5 hours and ganking a team is truely exhlierating

[leaden briar]

« If »

« If »

[keen abyss]

and which comps do?

[leaden briar]

« If »

[keen abyss]

what does lf mean

[leaden briar]

if*

Thats what hes saying

if if if

[snow coral]

If you make the choice

If your team makes the choice

[leaden briar]

Ok 2 questions

Whats your overall knowledge

Whats your overall rank

And third question Why would i pick any other character over gunner as a ranged carry

[fiery void]

Trent you have a high elo player telling you that your "Just play better" rationale is wrong. If you won't take it from sund0se, who will you take it from? Are you just going to put your head in the sand and continue to say Hudson is in a good place when you have people from a wide range of ranks telling you he's not?

[keen abyss]

you also have other high elo players saying playing against hudson isn't fun

[leaden briar]

Nah dont use my rank as an argue Im not here to flex or anythin

I just have some knowledge i asume

[fiery void]

Sorry man I'm not trying to be disrespectful or use you like that. It's just been a solid couple hours of "Just play better" and I'm asking for a direct response to his perfect-case scenario disagreeing with him.

[leaden briar]

The best way to prove our point is the scrims stats

Hudson is picked by every single team every single Game

[snow coral]

My knowledge of the game, I stat checked all items and ability stats and familiarised myself with all hunters and their abilities and raitos

[leaden briar]

And if you cant understand Why Thats huh

[fathom plank]

I'm convinced. I'm a low elo shitter so just getting better til now was acceptable for me, but if he's a must pick for the highest level of play ON TOP OF everyone else at lower skill brackets complaining about him, then there's an issue.

[leaden briar]

He can just obliterate a tank over a second, have an aoe snare that you legit cant dash or pass trough, is the only oath real counter and has an execute AND a wisp execute

Also has the highest range in Game if you admit he never stop hitting

[keen abyss]

doesn't myth outrange

bishop maybe?

[leaden briar]

She does but if you take cadence as a point

[keen abyss]

wait doesn't myth get slowed down

you have to jump to properly space

[leaden briar]

Gunner just stands there and glide

Myth has to space

[keen abyss]

wdym by this btw

[leaden briar]

Myth needs Time to load range

Gunner just spams

[keen abyss]

yea it is quite hard to space as myth

[leaden briar]

So overall on a real situation his range is always the same

[keen abyss]

im not good tho

[leaden briar]

Since myth cant be loading 24/7

Shes outranged

[keen abyss]

could shrike technically outrange her

by dipping in and out

[leaden briar]

Otherwise we admit that ghost has the highest range un game

In*

[keen abyss]

imagine if shrike had like

5 microdashes

[leaden briar]

The problem is that shrike canot break oath shield

[fiery void]

insanity lmao. I'd love that for a limited time gamemode

[leaden briar]

Broken aha

[keen abyss]

it would be kinda fun to play ngl

[snow coral]

Untill someone shows me a video of them fighting a hudson where I can't easily find the mistake they made then I don't tbink their good

[leaden briar]

Wow

[keen abyss]

pros make mistakes?

[fiery void]

I don't know what I was expecting but and ego response was not it. yikes

[leaden briar]

Thats about ego at this point

[keen abyss]

like

[fathom plank]

f

[keen abyss]

literal top 20 players make mistakes all the time

in other games

[leaden briar]

Bro thinks hes the one

[keen abyss]

i could point out mistakes made by top players in other games

and im not particularly good at any game, aside from like terraria lmfao

[snow coral]

If I can look at I fight and immietalely see that this is where you made a mistake then I don't think its hudson being overpowered

[leaden briar]

I played 1k games from the day 1 of beta Until now

I made mistakes 1k games

Bet Im not chatgpt

Sry

[snow coral]

If I have to watch a fight multiple times to see where tbe error is and if its something in your controll the we explore

[keen abyss]

if you expect top players to not make mistakes you're going to find noone

[leaden briar]

Imagine thinkin a Human is an IA

[keen abyss]

what, have you not seen valorant whiff compliations

[snow coral]

But every time I've seen a hudson complaint or watched a fight against hudson I've been able to see the point in which they made the mistake

[keen abyss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vteE7_ZlZHI

[leaden briar]

ofc you never played or watched a single stacked Game

[keen abyss]

"omg they're not good they lack basic skills"

[snow coral]

I've 4 stacked with 3 other diamond + league players

[leaden briar]

?

[keen abyss]

diamond is a meaningless rank

[snow coral]

And we've never had issues with hudson

[keen abyss]

oh you mean diamond in league?

[leaden briar]

You can push diamond without doing a single kill

[keen abyss]

^

[snow coral]

Yes diamonds from league

[keen abyss]

have you went against other 4 stacks playing meta hudson comp?

[fiery void]

The skills don't perfectly translate so that doesn't tell us a lot

[snow coral]

Probably

[keen abyss]

or are you going against remanants of matchmaking

and destroying bronzes

whats your rank in supervive?

[leaden briar]

You won 37 games out of 194

[keen abyss]

does won mean top 2 or top 1

game counts top 2 as win

[leaden briar]

Also you never played a ranked game

And you have 34h played

[keen abyss]

what the fuck?

LMFAOOOOO

of course you havent struggled against hudsons

[leaden briar]

Your main champ is Elluna

You told me you theorycrafted a lot

Let me check how you build her then

[snow coral]

I theory crafted all the items in practise and figured out what's optimal

[hushed hornet]

Devs have already said he is getting nerfs

how is this discussion still going

[leaden briar]

People refuses to understand why

[keen abyss]

okay say it

[leaden briar]

Egoing

[fiery void]

A lot of "We're not having fun playing against him" followed by "Just play better" and all of the discussion gymnastics that comes with those two messages

[keen abyss]

telling to play people to "just play better" against hudson and not touching ranked once is absolutely fucking wild btw

[hushed hornet]

I mean the character is overtuned but he isnt immortal no character is

[keen abyss]

bro when i don't play ranked i don't give a fuck about anything

1v4? yeah il take that

using a hunter i have 0 clue how to play? chill

and il still probably dive head into a squad

[hushed hornet]

I have a pretty strong guess balance patch will come on the 11th with the christmas themed map

just chill and wait a bit

[snow coral]

You know maybe if I wanted to sit and go back to my league days where I grinded ranked non stop and reach the high ranks of supervive I would and could, but then the game becomes a chore and it's no longer playing a game for the game, if I wanted to I'm sure I'd ladder in supervive

[leaden briar]

We discuss about gunner, not how Good You are

[snow coral]

But I'm pass my days of mindless grinding rank to have high and mightly people who refuse to learn make ranked an u enjoyable experience

[keen abyss]

i don't doubt that considering you peak gm in lol

but i also think you have 0 say in how good hudson is

considering you just play against unranked randoms who are probably soloq and new to the game

[snow coral]

And if I can not be putting in grinding efforts and find answers and ways to beat hudson

Then it's 100% a skill issue

[keen abyss]

yeah but have you?

[leaden briar]

Nobody said there is no way to beat gunner

[keen abyss]

you haven't went against a hudson who is playing an actual comp and is trying

[leaden briar]

Actually Elluna in a 1v1 situation deletes hudson

Does it makes him weak ? No

[keen abyss]

who are the hardest counters to hudson?

people say myth is no 1 hudson counter

[snow coral]

You're saying nobody tries ever, people try in causal some people.sweat in casual, but not everyone does

[leaden briar]

Every single high mobility champ obliterate gunner

[hushed hornet]

I mean hudson isnt strong 1v1 in general its not his strong point

He just does a lot of damage to a lot of people very fast

[leaden briar]

Yeah

[hushed hornet]

He is the best follow up in the game

And I mean his ult just sends people to deathbox

[keen abyss]

very few people

[snow coral]

But furthermore if I'm bad at the game don't touch ranked amd my opinion is unvaild then why can I look at all the videos of fights against hudson and immediately see where they made the mistake that made the fight losing

If I'm that bad I shouldn't be able to do that with high level gameplay

[fiery void]

Because hindsight is always 20/20. It's easy to nitpick vods

[snow coral]

But I can

[leaden briar]

Because you have a spectator view

[keen abyss]

yeah and i probably can too

and i suck ass at the game

[snow coral]

Then why is it so consistently the same.mistake

[keen abyss]

considering i can find flaws in top tier valorant gameplay

[fiery void]

People critique professional sports all the time from their couch at home. This is not a good example

[keen abyss]

and i suck ass at valorant

[snow coral]

Its because people aren't leaning

[leaden briar]

Turn it over then

[keen abyss]

so if we put you in a pro setting you won't be making any mistakes aswell?

[leaden briar]

Why would you pick myth shrike or ghost over hudson

[snow coral]

At pro levels of league I can't 90% see the mistake immeadetly

In 90% of suoervive cases I can

The difference is ita the same mistake every time

And people are refusing to learn

[keen abyss]

please enlighten us

show us a video of a pro playing in scrims

multiple actually, of the same person

becuase you claim its the same every time

[leaden briar]

Anyway gunner deserves it, hes getting nerfed soon, if you think he doesnt deserve it then im sorry to tell you that but your point has no value

Happens

Lata boys

[grand sky]

Hudson is like struggling alcoholic. Kind of holds on on his own but becomes a problem when enabled by others (oath + zeph)

[keen abyss]

that made me laugh

zeph gives him too much mobility?

[grand sky]

Hudson looses to most of the cast pretty badly in a fair 1v1 or even team fights if he doesnt have a team to cover him up.

Kp expecially gives backshots to hudson
Same with joule.
You kinda notice this more in the arena game mode when playing with randoms (unless you have oath and zeph lmao)

Some problems arrise with how hudson is super stat checky and some of his matchups flip when he has enough stats.

Zeph full heals hudson with one rmb

[keen abyss]

a problem i have with zeph teammates is that

they sometimes send my myth

[grand sky]

And gives him even more mobility

[keen abyss]

into the opponents

and i fucking die

[grand sky]

Slight oopsie

[keen abyss]

had a zeph send my team into a train once

[grand sky]

Oath basically covers every weakness hudson has

[keen abyss]

does hudson fare well when zeph faceplants hudson into the team?

with an oath ofc

[grand sky]

Kind of yeah. Its basically a vehicle mounted machine gun flying in the air with a shield to boot

[leaden briar]

See bastion meta on OW ?

works the same Way

[grand sky]

Basically

If bastion also had insane mobility

Could be ok if hudson was more immobile

[keen abyss]

don't play hero shooters nor mobas

kinda lost

[grand sky]

And he should be but he really isnt immobile enough

[keen abyss]

^

[grand sky]

https://tenor.com/view/-gif-7960915

[keen abyss]

also

[leaden briar]

Yeah he can pissglide on you

And Thats a shame

[keen abyss]

hudsons barbed wires are so fucking cancer

makes it so hard to approach

[leaden briar]

Yep

Snares

[keen abyss]

why not just make it a knockback molly

more skill expression

you could push enemies away and towards you

[grand sky]

What is exactly your issue with the wires. Im taking notes

[keen abyss]

combo hard to land attacks into the knockback

[keen abyss]

hard to get through

if you walk through them you're slow

and take damage

slow = easier to land hits and hudson fucks you more

[grand sky]

Do you think they would be fine if they where thinner but delt more dmg? Like actual wires

[keen abyss]

its not that much of a problem in open spaces but its a bitch to fight in stuff the crystal caves

[keen abyss]

idk

would have to test that

i would be more chill if it was a circle instead

[grand sky]

It used to be but they where really fat

[keen abyss]

but its still cancer to play against

and low skill expression

[void magnet]

The ult has a bug btw xddd🤭

[grand sky]

A few bugs

Documented multiple so far

[grand sky]

Could you tell who you main and in about what skill level. helps group feedback

Also what exactly makes the ability low skill? is it the fact it has a lot of charges or?

[keen abyss]

im not very good at the game, quite new

myth main

[keen abyss]

because the one use case ive been seeing is just barracading yourself with them so its hard to approach

[hushed hornet]

I mean you kind of just throw them down

[keen abyss]

^

[hushed hornet]

I dont think the character being simple is the problem though

[keen abyss]

plus long duration + 2 charges

[hushed hornet]

He just has been buffed continuously for a long time

[keen abyss]

i mean how do you not get value out of them

in a fight

unless you're chasing

[hushed hornet]

I mean you can jump pad over them

And he cant have them down permanently

[keen abyss]

but spacers don't get advantange from that

shirke is so commonly played at low elo i get a lot of shrike+myth games

[hushed hornet]

I mean you can go in on myth

if gunner sits there holding rmb he is very slow and easy to hit

[keen abyss]

depends on team comp?

if they have burst options im cooked

[hushed hornet]

I mean nah every game you should have oppertunities

Unless you are literally losing every fight

[keen abyss]

yeah im not saying i have 0 opportunities

its just super annoying to play against

[keen abyss]

oh one thing to mention

[grand sky]

Remember that the wires are bad on reaction they have a travel time and arm time

[keen abyss]

i have 0 experience in mobas, BR's, and hero shooters, closest games are albion and val

[keen abyss]

can't you just throw them down at the start of a fight

[hushed hornet]

I mean yeah Hudson is a lot better in lower skill levels

same as shrike

[keen abyss]

shrike is pretty punishing tbh

[grand sky]

Just holds down buttons and people walk into them

[keen abyss]

aiming isn't trivial

you can't hold m1 and win

[grand sky]

Hudson can

Lmb rmb for the win

When you get good on hudson you realize you can feather the rmb

[keen abyss]

ive seen people in my silver lobbies do that

[hushed hornet]

Hudson is pretty cooldown and team reliant at higher levels

[grand sky]

Btw question about scrims games, is hudson viable at all without an oath to protect him?

Or is it a trend that every hudson has his oath

[hushed hornet]

I think you should play oath or you are griefing

But oath has also been meta for like 6 months+

I mean we won last tournament on oath/gunner comp

[keen abyss]

why hasn't oath been nerfed?

[hushed hornet]

Because he is good at high level

[keen abyss]

ive played like 2 games with oath and i have 0 clue how to play him

idk how to deal damage lol

[hushed hornet]

and I dont think the devs care enough about us

compared to the general playerbase

which is fine rn idm that much

[keen abyss]

how would you nerf oath to only the top tier players

[hushed hornet]

Some characters just need to be balanced around certain elos imo

unsure the devs currently share the same sentiment

[grand sky]

Do you think oath being good is the main factor why hudson is picked?

[hushed hornet]

Its a factor

but hudson is also good

[keen abyss]

i mean ideally all characters are viable at all elos, just some a bit more than others

its done in rivals of aether pretty well, you see pretty much everyone played at top level

[grand sky]

Doesnt dota do a thing where they only really balance around pro level?

[keen abyss]

is that good for casuals?

[grand sky]

Idk heard casual games are fine and most characters are viable. but its all hearsay

[keen abyss]

ah

[hushed hornet]

yes but I dont think thats good for this game

[hushed hornet]

Sure but when you see a new player on brall and then see someone actually play the character to its limit one makes him look useless and the other makes him look completly broken

[keen abyss]

define new player

[hushed hornet]

Okay Im gonna say lower skill

even like mid skill players dont make him look great

[keen abyss]

that might be problematic?

[hushed hornet]

but thats why its pretty hard to balance

yeah

[keen abyss]

what about the concept of him dealing pretty equal damage across all skill levels

at low elos you have combos that are powerful but easy to dodge

at high elos you minmax your combos to make them harder to dodge but deal less damage than you would on a still target

[bitter hamlet]

This is so arrogant lol not everyone is just charging Hudson most people dread seeing the character so much they avoid fighting him entirely if possible. On his own he has crazy consistent buttons that are seriously easy to use compared to most others and on top of that he's probably gets more out of his team than any other character as having Oath or Zeph around means he can just face tank or control any area he wants while the other two mostly negate any down sides he would've had

[slim sun]

I don't think people have as much agency to fight Hudson as some of what's being claimed here would lead you to think

[bitter hamlet]

Third party or not the Hudson / Oath / Zeph trio is not fun and honestly exhausting that it's so common. Often with a Brall or Void flex so you can't just avoid them either lol

Disingenuous. We're not here to destroy towers and a base. It's not a zero sum one team vs one team outside of arena. The equipment is very limited and you're not really out here buying whatever you want or getting components at secret shop
Etc.
This game is a hero shooter BR with an RTS/RPG perspective and the only thing they took from moba was leveling and upgrading skills which honestly isn't a moba exclusive thing

[slim sun]

You could argue that SUPERVIVE is more like Warcraft 3 than a traditional MOBA, really

Rotating around the map and 'creeping' with your hero units was a big part of gameplay

[carmine grove]

10 min of farming to die to a 1 shot in 2 seconds and back to queue for another 10 mins :D hell yeah

I ❤️ Supervive! Nothing 😤 gets me more hyped 🔥 than waiting ⏳ in a 5️⃣-minute queue ⌛ just to find a match 🎮. I pick my landing spot 📍, and boom 💥, 5️⃣ other teams 👥👥 drop with me. Instant wipe 💀 in 1️⃣ second ⏱️. The real game? 🕹️ It’s queuing ⌛ because I sure don't get to PLAY it 🤷‍♂️. Average loss 📉 of 2,615 players daily 🚪➡️ btw 🫡!

[bitter hamlet]

Why is this in this channel, and it's so doomer

[grand sky]

Idk

[void magnet]

Sure, population decline is normal, but it’s how a game responds that sets it apart. Like America, a great game doesn’t just roll over—it finds solutions that unite and strengthen its community. Supervive could’ve done this by introducing Oceanic servers, or better yet, a Guam server that bridges US West, Eastern Australia, and Eastern Asia. It would’ve been a strategic move, bringing players together from across the Pacific and showing a real commitment to inclusivity and fair play. 🇺🇸🌏

[bitter hamlet]

https://youtu.be/fUsdIrCCZOI lol

[rigid lily]

What do you guys think about having Hudson's turn speed be like normal (or a little slower) when charging up his rmb BUT he has an overheat mechanic that if he hits then he has to wait 5 seconds before he can shoot again. This gives people more counter play because he actually has to stop shooting to wait for the gun to cool down or he overheats and you can jump him.

[candid rover]

low elo play, they sould have been able to kill him if they were good. Specially that brall

[keen abyss]

that brall was not good

[grand sky]

Yeah he should have won but hudsons too op.

[bitter hamlet]

lol

[shrewd shuttle]

you might aswell put all that effort into a rework

[split kayak]

these devs so stupid to not realize the problem with hudson is that you cant create any sort of tempo in the fight because his damage doesnt have a cooldown

[bitter hamlet]

His rmb is a bit more commital now and his mobiltiy and barbed wire range nerf is still a significant change. he also doesn't match Myth's range anymore and can be poked much easier (granted this all evaporates once Oath or Zeph is around to babysit him)

[fiery void]

Let's not insult the devs :)

[tidal crow]

Why? cant you see this guy has solved the game?

[slim sun]

Because we can complain about the game in good faith without assuming the devs are stupid?

[rotund marsh]

Honestly what i thought they were gonna do originally because alot of games implement overheat features, I haven't played against the new nerfed Hudson yet tho but he may not need further nerfs

[grand sky]

He used to have that and it was hated by basically everyone

[mossy wolf]

The easiest and most logical Hudson balance is to just re-implement his overheat feature on his spin up. Why it was ever removed in the first place to allow him to just hold right click forever makes no sense balance wise or even realistically. The only other character that has auto an auto fire weapon has to reload, but Hudson gets unlimited ammo? I realize he can be countered as is with good coordination in some situations/comps but he just feels unhealthy overall for the non stop barrage of damage.

[bitter hamlet]

They did change his right click though, toggling spin up/feathering it is much worse now and having only 1 dash is a significant nerf.

he cant' just dash twice and feather it whenever he wants to toggle mobility or damage anymore

[keen abyss]

does it solidify hudson into the hudsob oath zeph comp

needing zeph for mobility

[bitter hamlet]

Honestly Hudson Oath Zeph is still a strong comp as they can basically hold an area and play the defensive game really well - something that shines in Arena and the last couple circles

[keen abyss]

yea but hudson used to be played in whatever

[bitter hamlet]

The topic is that Hudson is too strong, my argument is his nerfs were significant enough that he's not "too strong" but rather he's still enabled by the "meta comp" in a way some others aren't.

[keen abyss]

my question is how does he fare outside the meta comp

[bitter hamlet]

eh.. decent. He still has solid range and out ranges most of the cast (noteably Myth outranges him properly now) and his spin up range was nerfed again so he can't really poke with it he's commiting to a fight if he's using it so I'd say he's about on par with Felix. He has great sustain if he's able to land it / people are stupid when fighting him but he can't just immediately turn it off and 180 people juking him either anymore which was a huge problem. His designed counter play is actually in the game now and you can juke/backstab him if he's spinning up + his damage nerf is fairly significant

He has way more area control than Felix and maybe even Celeste & Void depending on the situation/comp tbh, but his range and damage nerfs + the dash nerf means he actually has to play with his team now he's not just dashing in to a team they dash away he dash chases and just toggles m2 to melt at will

[void magnet]

Note that @bitter hamlet 's feedback is based off on being a felix main with <10% of lifetime games as hudson, with only 3 ranked squad games and 2 arena games with him. Average/below average total playtime as well. Take what he says with a pinch of salt

[hushed hornet]

They're main and playtime on the character they are giving feedback for doesn't really matter, everyone's opinion and feedback holds value as we get to see it from their perspective and understand how they feel. I don't call your opinion invalid due to your skill level you shouldn't do it to others.

[void magnet]

Strawman, I didn't call his opinion invalid, I just said to take his feedback with a pinch of salt with the above context I've given

[hushed hornet]

You are literally undermining his opinion, Strawman 🙂

[void magnet]

Undermining with what? Stats? You a STEM denier now?

Anyway was just putting that here, back to rivals now kek

[hushed hornet]

Okay you are just one of those

gn bro have a nice day

[void magnet]

good afternoon lil bro, have a good night

[hushed hornet]

https://tenor.com/view/nauts-scrims-awesomenauts-gif-24642255

[fiery void]

I could fuck with some awesomenauts right about now

[void magnet]

Anyway last piece of stats before I actually grind rivals ranked:

[fiery void]

Also discounting someone's opinion based on playtime and rank is dumb as hell. Everyone's feedback is valuable for the developers.

I don't understand why you're trying to pull the rank/playtime card.

[void magnet]

Hudson sent to the gulags, nerfs were successful

[void magnet]

Didn't talk about his rank, you're putting words in my mouth like the other guy

And discounting yes, I'm doing that.
Firstly, do you agree that having more experience and playtime on a certain character allows you to have a more nuanced take regarding feedback for said character?

[fiery void]

You talked about ranked games played, I mistyped.

[void magnet]

Yeah and the main point was actually the number of games he played btw

[fiery void]

A more nuanced take about the nitty gritty of the character? Yes. That doesn't make their opinion any less valid as overall feedback though.

It is extremely important to consider and respect all perspectives on characters and balance, not just the mains and more knowledgeable players. Games live and die by the casual playerbase.

[void magnet]

Ok, if you feel feedback based on 3 games is as valid as other people with 200+ games ig i'll stop here because i'm not gonna waste my time on this

[fresh dune]

All feedback is valid

[void magnet]

Great

I'm saying less valid btw, not completely invalid

[void magnet]

Your actual reply should have been 'All feedback is equally valid'

[fiery void]

All feedback is equally valid. The developers will add nuance to it as they need to.

[void magnet]

The fact that you didn't say that means you didn't understand my point, tyvm

[fresh dune]

I appreciate you correcting me! That is what I should have said

[hushed hornet]

I dont understand how some people live there life being a full time prick it just sounds like so much effort

Literally take a day off

[void magnet]

Coming from you lol

[fiery void]

I appreciate your enthusiasm but this isn't going to help anything. Negativity will just breed more negativity

[fresh dune]

both of you chill

we leave it here

have a gn

[void magnet]

Sure mate i'll actually touch grass, sorry i ain't part of the BOMB squad

[hushed hornet]

https://tenor.com/view/big-trouble-if-i-speak-if-i-speak-i-am-in-big-trouble-speak-big-gif-23519858

[void magnet]

gn lil bro

[bitter hamlet]

When I started the game I played Hudson and Elluna and I've dabbled with most of the cast at this point but yea I've played Felix the most. Weird attempt to discredit my opinions that I haven't seen you do to anyone else -_-

If anything playing a character with no sustain and half Hudson's range and saying he's not OP shouldn't be a mark against me lol the 3 sec anti heal is mainly what enables my team if they manage

[hazy token]

At this point just delete Hudson from the game right

[grand sky]

After messing around with him in practice tool and trying to find bugs and stuff on him Im of the opinion he was nowhere near ready for release

he should still be in testing

And I mean internal fixing or have him get the "work in proggress" thing on him

Some of his ability descriptions are wrong

his ult doesnt work

Q has a weird bug with its dmg stacking that I think can be abused against jin

His passive isnt working properly

Weird interactions with swiftblade and last stand

Im quite sure his passive is coded differently from a regular heal since it doesnt interact with heal boosts

They are reworking him again internally so idk

[deep bolt]

Hudson isn't strong istelf - the role he plays into majority in the current cast of hunter is what makes it extremelly viable and feels ''strong''

you have dive + poke champion right now essentially

what does hudson do really good into ? anyone who overcomit trying to dive him or someone who fucks up his mobility and gets gunned down

[keen abyss]

regarding how all feedback is important

• if a new player doesnt know something which causes them to get destroyed, the game/community should probably educate them

like an in depth tutorial for each character woupd be really nice

see: rivals of aether

[candid rover]

(never played a game with hudson in my life and never will, don't even have him unlocked and if it was not mandatory at some point i'd prefer not even unlocking it, he has such a shitty gameplay imo)

regarding the current state of the character, to me hudson is ok. With one dash instead of two he can't play as aggressive as before and he def can't team wipe anymore after the nerfs unless the whole team makes huge mistakes

[cunning pilot]

hudson = ok, oath = not very ok (maybe with current nerfs better)

[void magnet]

#🍞│general message

[dire merlin]

Nerf Hudson again just to show him we aren’t sorry for the first one

[ebon sphinx]

wdym he's op? Hudson is in a good place rn, he does his job and nothing more. He cant run you down anymore and with his range nerf on both is barbed wire, mini gun and dash distance + loosing a charge of his dash. Hudson is what a controller is supposed to be. If your having problems with Hudson then I suggest you look at your own gameplay and find the mistakes your making.

[fiery void]

I am also totally fine with Hudson how he is right now. Granted I think a mini-rework is in order to make him actually do something. Currently he gets outshined by so many other characters.

[untold cradle]

This is an awesome solution in my opinion. Great idea, I do think his range needs to be backed off Just a tad more in addition but having a spin up mana cost then ticking mana drain while the spin up is charged both prevents him from spamming RMB to turn swiftly and counter his own nerfs while also making you have to manage a resource for the power
You get when spin up. Big brain my friend very big brain

[grand sky]

Other solution would also be a heat mechanic that has a downside when managed poorly.
Just adding a new mana drain source would imo be a little boring of a solution. Yeah its simple but now he is forced to manablade to counter act the manadrain.
That is just the old overheat system he used to have but mana instead. You go oom the champ stops working.

Doesnt really feel great

[untold cradle]

could do it that he gets a flat mana bump on kill, or honestly if he just had a cd on his RMB wind up that probably also helps. Kinda like the zeph or shiv cd on roll and heal. force a delay so when he drops the RMB to turn he can't instantly ramp back up.

[grand sky]

Rmb cast should have a slight cd