Next Fest Megathread

[mild sleet]

I think the tricky part is the more power you put in the passives the bigger the power spike jump from green to blue items will be, and that can also cause some potentially adverse effects.

[rugged matrix]

True true

[mild sleet]

I guess instead you could have the passives start the same/weaker and have further upgrades buff the passives slightly. The. you smooth out the power curve.

Then*

But idk, just something to be aware of.

[rugged matrix]

Part of the many tricky things to handle for sure

[languid thicket]

I have been so heads-down all!

Sorry about being MIA today. I’ll read up on everything today. 🙂

Also - I’ll spend tomorrow morning responding and asking questions around 10AM PST.

[open cliff]

https://tenor.com/view/and-i'll-be-joining-you-there-cat-sky-parachute-skycat-gif-6195789619220915971

[distant vault]

Kind of what happened in league in the last years. Item power got out of hand. You where playing items not champions. For example Amumu himself wasnt op that one time but his kit abused an item the best. Aka new sunfire. Then turbo chemtank became op and Udyr popped off because he could abuse it the best.

Not saying item passive are bad just mentioning that base line stat differences matter with items and so do the stats when it comes to item feel.

I feel different on velkoz when I build blackfire torch vs liandrys. Traded mana and cd for better burn and hp but less ap

When I go techblade in vive I wish it felt like I went for a techblade and that it would matter not just for the passives.

If any of this makes sense.

I feel that the items having similar stat values was a thing against bad rng with item drops but now that we can decide what we get I think its fine to have stat differences.

The downside of course is that the enemy doesnt know off the bat what items you have. But Id think itd be a skill in higher skill prackets to know dmg values roughly. "That void Lmb hit me for exactly 147dmg meaning he doesnt have more then x ap so he is running tech/mana for ability spam 🤓 ☝️ "

Also sorry if I pinged

[olive shore]

Maybe I'm in an echo chamber, but I think the best middle-ground is passives that don't directly impact damage or survivability. When item build optimization comes down to which set of items gives you the most effective hp or the most effective ap, the meta will be dominated by whichever characters can best abuse those items to get more stats than their opponents.

This is one of the reasons why I've been an advocate to completely remove items like Mindblade, Rampage, and Helm of Gigantism: Even if they are just nerfed and nerfed, it will either make then nonviable in all situations, or the few characters who can use them effectively in their nerfed states will just rise in relative strength.

As much as I'm not an enormous fan or these items, I think Bloodscent/Grace/Big Game Hunter (minus the movespeed->ap conversion thing) are, imo, good representative of a way to make the passives about stats while offering different options based on playstyle:
Grace is great for rotating and out-of-combat movespeed, while also being good on teams with a lot of healing and characters who try to not take much damage in the first place.
Bloodscent is great for aggressive characters who want better dueling and in-combat movespeed.
Big Game Hunter is good for teams that want to play slowly and scale up by focusing on objectives and getting movespeed for both situations, while having a longer quest to fulfil first.
Having these items be quickblades makes sense, because their passives are related to movespeed.

The reason I'm not a huge fan of these items anyway is because if all of the items followed this formula (have the passives related to the secondary stat the item gives) then items that have secondary stats that directly impact survivability or potential damage output, namely CDR and Omnivamp, will simply rise in priority because those secondary stats will be the "next best thing".

So, that's one of the reasons why I think every item needs to have the same philosophy of impacting gameplay without touching on stats in any way outside of the item's innate secondary stats.
Even better, seperate secondary stats from items so that anybody can choose the secondary stats they want and then they can pick the passive they want. That'd be the best outcome, from what I've analyzed.
I also want to point out how enchantments were a great way of having effects that impacted gameplay by providing more options, but didn't provide stats or effects that increased damage or survivability. They focused on either recovering mana or providing consumables, for the most part.

[distant vault]

Mindblade, rampage abuse gives me same vibes as league characters abusing the best item. The amumu Udyr examples. Kinda why I think flat AP passives have to be extremely conditional or not exist at all.
Only place them I kinda see them existing is on the helmets and even then stuff like ambrush and comet. Very telegraphed.

[bold urchin]

Idr if we've talked about it before but I'd really like more impactful consumables - as in more variety of items not increased impact necessarily
Emp grenades getting cut especially, along with backpacks being so big by default with no upgrade now, meant that it really feels like you just get "1 of everything each" and every scenerio for consumables gets covered very easily

It also doesn't feel like much of an adventure to collect consumables anymore

You kinda get them everywhere

And it's not targeted really

[lucid atlas]

Will agree with this.
EMP grenades getting cut honestly felt really weird. Sure, they were strong, but they also added nice variety to the consumable aspect and gave a unique reason to be in Immotek.
Consumables being the same everywhere feels bland.

[rugged matrix]

Kinda spoiling what I'll be talking about partly this evening, but I personally want cooking, and thus exploration/scavenging of dead teams more interesting too. If you played Core Keeper or TloZ: Echoes of Wisdom, a cooking mechanic similar to them: picking 2 gatherable consumables, that you can find in x or y biomes specifically, with each their own effect when combined are strenghtened

From speaking to various people, I kinda start having an angle on stuff that might be worth to explore, at the very least as a discussion.
Item rank disparity in itself could serve as one of two "Win More" aspect, the other being cooked meals.
Item passives could serve as a "What options have I to Win", same goes for rare consumables like EMP grenades
But lemme know what y'all think, because tbf I'm not the most up to speed in regards to items and I can certainly be off by a mile lol

[bold urchin]

Another side of discussion that could be good is I think there are a lot of small uncontroversial changes that the game can make that just make sense and make the game like 1% better, more clear, and more fun each

For example my recent post about items should just drop seeded based on where you're facing, and ability descriptions should include the current rank of ability in the design somewhere

But also stuff like antiheal should be a debuff which permanently shows when active rather than getting covered up by other debuffs

I keep thinking of new ones every now and then but I keep getting capped by the 1hr slowmode on making feedback posts

Ground targeting circles should be on by default

There should be separate UI for when you're not the drop leader in the drop pod so you don't split by accident out of habit of controlling the drop

There should be a hotkey for dragging a stack of items out of your inventory rather than one at a time

E.g. alt + lmb drag picks up all 3 of my food, or drags all of my hypervives

Rather than having to drag and drop 1 at a time

I think "cancel targeting" should be something like X by default not rmb

Or if it is RMB it shouldn't cast your RMB when you click RMB to cancel

The keybind should also be indicated on the screen somewhere when you have the targeting up

I think the tp back to bonfire animation (the one showing on the bonfire not on the player) should have better vfx - it feels like it continues slightly after being cancelled? And it's so unclear if one cancelled and another started or what

Maybe more controversial but I think there should be sfx for vault pillars getting killed

I think the UI element for indicating my teammates have ultimates skills be more clear

I think my ability cooldowns should be pingable and there should be a voiceline for "my ultimate is on cooldown"

Power cooldowns should be pingable too

Can also add just "my ability is on cooldown" and "my power is on cooldown" as voice lines too even without specifying just to indicate to look at chat

Obviously we've talked about pings - especially base pings - being pretty unreadable and bad before but this is still there as something bad which should get better with a small bit of asset/sfx work

I think teammate sfx should be slightly quieter for me than it is for enemies so I can hear enemies over my teammates

[bold urchin]

There should be a counter for the # of teams left in the dropship

The indicator for enemy teams dropping should be more clear to indicate who is landing/dropping where - e.g. team colours on the ground circles & a different icon to indicate ally drops

Also team colours in general

I have a good tip for anyone who has to pick a variety of distinct colours

When you want either colours which go well together or oppose each other well you can cheat and steal the colours from makeup pallets

You can easily find 10 distinct nameable team colours from this for example

[limber hornet]

I think ap on items could be fine if it's actually worth the tradeoff of what the other things could give. The other utility stuff would just need to be stronger

Doing niche things to achieve those stats is what would make different hunters abuse them better than others, but even if it's just utility there will always be hunters that use stuff better than others

[undone spruce]

Items should allow players to approach combat, matchups, and the map differently. This cannot be accomplished with stats or stat like passives alone.

The problem being that that is generally the role TC has assigned powers / consumables. Items cannot have more impact that powers / consumables because both of these rely on time investment in game to obtain. Why would I spend my time and resources to obtain powers / consumables when I could obtain comparable effects from my items?

I think at the end of the day powers / consumables are a really poor way to allow players to express game knowledge because the distribution is random and not controlled. This means that players have to adapt to what is given to them by the game. Some games you might get nothing useful for you in the vault you dropped near or some games you happen to be playing the character that gets their god tier power from a biome boss so you can play every single game to get exactly what you want to make the game easy.

This is where the BR stans are going to rise up and tell me that it's a battle royale so randomness is part of the game! Which is all well and good when the skill checks are in a first person shooters. It's nearly impossible to stat stick someone in a first person shooter. Because even if someone has all the grenades and attachments in the world you can just headshot them. Because you have to aim. The skill checks in a MOBA style game (which this is. The game is heavily influenced by MOBA combat.) are not the same as a first person shooter. I think this is why it feels REALLY bad to me that so much of the ability to express game knowledge (which is an important part of MOBA skill expression) is gated behind random chance.

I also understand that if you make it easier to express game knowledge through items, powers / consumables are going to be less sought after and their impact on the game reduced.

I'm just not sure that is a bad thing

This is why I thought amplifier was a good item if a bit overtuned. It encouraged and rewarded a player for expressing game knowledge.

[rugged matrix]

Perfect thing that you're here @undone spruce , right the good person I wanted to ask for that, especially considering your line and "mine" (which isn't really) somewhat align. What if powers and items switch place, Items becoming the more avenues and game knowledge, and Powers the Win more? 🤔

[olive shore]

Holy, Anion cooked

[distant vault]

A few Quality of life updates

[undone spruce]

I'm not sure- I think I would like that better since items are more readily available to the player to express game knowledge. The thing I like about powers / consumables is that you can easily swap them if you find something better suited to your character / playstyle / game state. This feels good.

[rugged matrix]

Welp, we have very interesting topic for Jess then

[quick heron]

if jess is late it's my fault dont hurt her

[distant vault]

Dont worry we will hurt you instead

[quick heron]

wiat what

[distant vault]

Tell us something about yourself so we can make it personal

[languid thicket]

Hello!

[open cliff]

Hello

[quick heron]

OK DNOT HURT ME

[distant vault]

Hi!

[quick heron]

U HAVE UR JESS

[rugged matrix]

HELLO

[distant vault]

[rugged matrix]

Time for peak

[languid thicket]

Haha, appreciate it, @quick heron.

I would like to take a beat to wrap what we were doing there and grab a coffee. Give me 15 and I'll be set back up.

In the meantime - were there topics that came to the top that you guys have been talking about? I can scrub when I'm settled in too.

[rugged matrix]

Gear, consumables & Powers: Where is and should be the Win More, where there should be More Options to Win

[rugged matrix]

Btw @olive shore, @pliant coral , might be your time to cook if you want

[olive shore]

I've got DnD in 30 minutes

so... here we go:
Anion mentioned a ton of different QoL updates that would make the game better, please definitely check those out, Safelocked, when you've got time.
Anion also talked about improving consumables, which I wholeheartedly agree with, I think they are the "active-items" of Supervive, and if they were invested in more and then items tied into them, then that would be a very satisfying and engaging system for items

[languid thicket]

Alright, I'm ready!

Oh, sounds good. I'm down for Items with a capital I.

Can I get a link to Anion's post?

[lucid atlas]

#1297244188970057850 message?

[rugged matrix]

#1297244188970057850 message

TOO SLOW NOOO

[languid thicket]

Also, love this. What class/race are you running?

[olive shore]

I've also talked about how I liked enchantments but saw some flaws with them, and how some of the parts of the current item system could be tied together with enchantments to also get a very satisfying item system.

But I think it is also important to remember why I'm advocating for changing the item system at all right now, and that's that I think items that focus on improving damage output or improving survivability are always going to dominate the item system or be utterly ignored by the majority of the roster. For example: Mindblade, after having its AP conversion nerfed to oblivion is still used, but pretty much only by characters who cannot use rampage or just want more mana, like Shrike and Zeph.
Also, while Rampage was dominating the previous patch, and you have already mentioned that Rampage stocks are going down next patch, I want to theorize what 3 different possible nerfs would end up doing:
If Rampage's passive was nerfed to give less AP, then it either would still be used just as much as before, but it would just be weaker, or it would no longer be used in favor of whatever else could give more AP
If Rampage's passive became harder to stack, then the characters who can stack it the quickest would simply rise in priority because they have access to a stronger item than other characters in the roster
If Rampage's passive was changed to give some other stat than AP, like mana or movespeed, or whatever, then it would no longer have priority over any AP-giving-passives, but it would contest items like Mindblade for giving mana, or whatever other items give those secondary stats.

[olive shore]

I play a Dragonborn Rogue

I love Rogues... I... I may play them a bit too much

This is my third Rogue character in a row...

[languid thicket]

Whoa. I wouldn't have expected a Dragonborn Rogue, but I sort of love it.

Also, yesss. I love Rogues.

They're also very strong. Lol.

[lucid atlas]

enchantments
The main complaint I had/have about enchantments is that which enchantment you got, or if you even get an enchanted item to begin with, was RNG.
The sole exception being the one patch where Forge could apply enchantments, but the resulting enchantment was still RNG.

[undone spruce]

It really just feels like items don't serve the same purpose in supervive that they do in other, similar games and I don't really vibe with the purpose that they are trying to fill.

[olive shore]

It's a lot of fun. The world has this whole history with dragon-cults, so there is a lot of espionage and intrigue. Good stuff. Dungeon-crawling right now though

[languid thicket]

For Enchantments - what did you like/dislike about them?

[olive shore]

The thing with enchantments that was bad imo was that they weren't consistently available. Or, better put: It was not always up to the player to opt into using the system. That's my main gripe with enchantments.
I really liked their effects. I'd have to go back through a bunch of conversations to get their exact effects, but stuff like getting consumables off kills or gaining mana based on nearby terrain felt like they rewarded me for playing a certain way, or they opened my gameplay up to have different options because I got to interact with consumables more.

[lucid atlas]

The enchantment that generated a random consumable item every 45s was absolute banger

[olive shore]

I think the first thing is something that evolving items have done extremely well though, especially with loadouts. As much as I dislike a lot of the new item effects, I can't deny that it is satisfying to always be able to opt into the exact items I want every game.

[rugged matrix]

Variance, for items, shouldn't come by rng imo

[languid thicket]

I loved this one.

[rugged matrix]

So ye new items are great for that

[olive shore]

R.I.P. Blade of the Third Eye

[languid thicket]

What would be your ideal distribution for Enchantments?

[olive shore]

how do you mean?

[languid thicket]

How would you want to acquire them?

Or said another way, how would you want to come about them in the world?

[olive shore]

I think it would be great to just tie them into a system like evolving items. As I evolve my items I'd pick the enchantments I want.

[languid thicket]

Ahh, gotcha gotcha.

[olive shore]

I mean, technically, that's kind of already what we do, but instead of the old enchantment effects, we've got new effects

[limber hornet]

How do you guys feel about item upgrades being locked to specific base types? Personally don't like that I need a tech blade for something like power user since not everyone can use a tech blade as an example

[languid thicket]

Right. You're just saying - hey, consider these effects too!

[rugged matrix]

Aren't the passives of evolving items enchantment already if we think about it?

[languid thicket]

Yeah, I think that's basically what Pensato's describing intentionally.

[bold urchin]

Hiii

[languid thicket]

Hello!

[olive shore]

I've also theorized what it would be like if perks were added back into the game as a system to give secondary stats, and items were diversified based not on secondary stats but based on their "upgrade tree" to different enchantments.

[unique agate]

[undone spruce]

I don't really think that would do it for me. Enchantments never really felt like a way for me to express game knowledge by adjusting my approach.

[grave adder]

Kind of like augments from lol arena?

[bold urchin]

I hope you enjoyed my small polish/qol/easy win points
I was kinda hoping others had more to build off it with haha, I normally find a couple whenever I watch a few vods

[olive shore]

do you think the current items do?

[olive shore]

not exactly

[languid thicket]

Yeah, I'd be curious about this one for this group.

I do think it makes it clear what the upgrade path is and what trades you need to make. Maybe the build tree needs work also, though.

[undone spruce]

A few do, but most do not

[languid thicket]

Hello!!

[rugged matrix]

I don't want to mis-rewrite a very interesting thing Pensato wrote in his own post

But I heavily forward it

[olive shore]

"Perks" used to be like an upgrade tree like was found in Heroes of the Storm, as far as I recall. I think it came up short with some of the options, but I think it could be a good way to infest in certain secondary stats without tying them into evolving items.

A common complaint I've seen with evolving items is that somebody might want a particular passive, but not gain from the secondary stats of a particular item necessary to get that passive. If the systems were seperate, it would theoretically resolve this issue

[rugged matrix]

I'll just dump it ig
"Items whose passives focus solely on "doing 'x' but better" only offer a form of objective strength that can be coldly calculated and optimized. When items can be so mathematically optimized, they become a barrier to entry for less knowledgable players to compete with more knowledgable players, and that barrier makes the game less accessable through a system that was meant to create depth. In reality, that depth is lost as soon as the optimal build is found, because after that there is no longer a need to theorycraft and optimize."
-Pensato

[unique agate]

hope you are all good! Excited to play soon

[undone spruce]

I think this is very similar to something the game tried for a bit

[languid thicket]

Yeah, we had something similar. I think we shipped it earlier than Arena, too. (But also, we're all inspired by TFT. Or Slay. Or any roguelike, heh.)

[lucid atlas]

Was my favorite largely because it enabled gameplay. It wasn't something that was useful in the moment, but it was great for having things that gave me options ahead of time.

[olive shore]

yes, that is what I'm referencing

[tawdry fiber]

Hello soup people

[languid thicket]

Dude, same.

[lucid atlas]

I will forever advocate for a return to talents/perks/etc., whether it be the ability augments we had in early 2023, the talent tree thing we had afterwards, the pick-up ability augments we had during Freaky Week (?), or something else entirely.

[languid thicket]

Doing really well. Nervous. Excited.

[bold urchin]

Yeah it's basically just a "the item system still feels very early alpha/work on progress" so I don't really wanna comment on build paths
I don't think there's really any mastery of depth in the system so builds being more/less accessible doesn't really matter, since you kinda just build the best item and if those stats/power require a certain playstyle for your character, that's just how you play them that balance patch

[languid thicket]

Hello!!

[unique agate]

good

[limber hornet]

I wish I played when the perks were a thing. That sounds like a perfect fix to me. Why were they taken away?

[tawdry fiber]

What are we directing the conversation toward right now?

[distant vault]

Items I think

[rugged matrix]

Deconstructing the item system and giving feedback on it

[olive shore]

From what I remember seeing, it was dominated by some very OP options, much like the current item system

I don't know if that was why it was removed though

I wasn't around back then

[lucid atlas]

IIRC the reason given at the time by devs was that it was a big time sink

Disclaimer: I do not have a link to a source on that. I am going purely off of memory. My memory on this may be faulty given I've slept at least three times since then.

[rugged matrix]

(he Omnipresent after all)

[languid thicket]

Right, totally. I think this describes the value of separation vs. consolidated. Separation gives you more customization. Consolidated also gives you less of a chance of missing out, if you need to acquire an Enchantment from somewhere else.

[bold urchin]

I kinda wish we could spend more time on ideas people might have for free win changes / polish that people want, given how close we are to open beta, but I guess others don't really have any thoughts on it

[languid thicket]

I mean, we could give you a way to disenchant also, probably.

[lucid atlas]

I was playing the game at that time, yes.

[undone spruce]

I don't think the perk system was much better. It didn't really allow for too much mastery expression

It was more you just took the best stats at all choices

[lucid atlas]

I'm specifically advocating for the non-stat perk things.

[rugged matrix]

I think we all do

[lucid atlas]

The stat perk tree was ???? / 10. I'd rather have that than stat-stick items, because at least then the items aren't pretending to be something they're not.

[olive shore]

I've got 5 minutes left until DnD, any more questions for me for now? If not, I've put out plenty of feedback posts (1 recently) on the topic that can be cited if need be.

[languid thicket]

Time sink will always be a secondary reason - if it makes the game better (validated by players, not just the team,) we'll do it.

[lucid atlas]

tbf I don't remember the exact reason given, I just vaguely remember that being a part of it

[languid thicket]

Hiya! We're talking about desires for Items/Consumables/Powers.

[languid thicket]

For sure. I just want this group to know it's always okay to ask for things, even big things.

[undone spruce]

free win changes?

[bold urchin]

Can I ask for a really really big tree on the map

I just think it would be cool

[olive shore]

I love trees

[tawdry fiber]

Zone that is entirely just one big tree and we fight on the branches

[languid thicket]

I love it. We're actually looking at trees right now.. (visually, more so.)

[tawdry fiber]

Cool, will try to think some stuff up

[languid thicket]

One thing with tall objects on the map, though, is that they often hide players.

[bold urchin]

Also, related, maybe a future season feature, but it would be cool to add layers of verticality to the map
Like maybe you walk up to the branches and now you're "above" other teams, kinda like midair, and it's a new layer

[rugged matrix]

Jess, asking you specifically the question:
Should items be mainly designed around "Winning More" (stats and clear optimisation will win amongst the many), or should they maybe derive from that and be freaky and varied with opening mostly only different ways to win and push player mastery above all?

[limber hornet]

I feel like to solve the item/ability it gives thing you could have like a preselected "rune page" outside of the actual game for your items to evolve into when they reach those levels. How often would you ever want to change the ability of the base item

[grave adder]

What are your thoughts on IMO Felix and bishop should swap roles. Felix -> Frontline and Bishop -> Initiator In my opinion It matches there tankiness and kits more to those roles?

[silent anchor]

only kind of related but when leveling skill as stalker with the hotkey it just uses them its really annoying

[bold urchin]

Maybe a silly suggestion you guys have already thought of but if you put something really big could you just put it.. on the very north of the map? Or have a mountain behind it? So there's nothing above it to hide?

[distant vault]

Can we have a dating sim in game like I had in a dream. I can finally marry hudson and officially call him Hubby

[olive shore]

Okay, I've gotta head out now. Best of luck everybody. (I might read through this while I play, but I likely won't have time to mention anything unless we get a break) Take care!

[bold urchin]

YES! huntress rain of arrows has this bug too

[tawdry fiber]

"The top rope"

[languid thicket]

You can call Hudson hubby now!

[bold urchin]

Next you'll be asking for them to add a "downtown"

[tawdry fiber]

Dont give away my secrets

[distant vault]

Marriage blessed by Safelocked She pronounces us husband 🦍 and Hubby

[languid thicket]

Ooo.

[rugged matrix]

Peak

[limber hornet]

Example being you pick power user for your mana blade upgrade and it auto picks power user when you get a blue mana blade (other abilities would be locked out on mana blades)

[languid thicket]

Going back to this question...

[silent anchor]

can you like get spiked to a lower level on the lowest you just die

[languid thicket]

Yeah, that's actually what we do now. The Northern Shards Vault is pretty tall, for example.

We'll probably play around with that more.

[bold urchin]

I feel like this is a really loaded question lmao, it kinda sounds like you really want items to do more, but I'm not really sure what you expect items to look like in your mind
What would you design an item to be which isn't the first choice, but is the second?

[languid thicket]

I need someone to tell me what they want the projectile rules to be for something like this. Heh.

[bold urchin]

Midair, and midair 2

[tawdry fiber]

For consumables, I do think that we need more variation, I like the items right now, but I dont think we have emough/ its a bit to easy to get the same stuff every match. I really loved the idea of each zone having its own consumables, and having to strategize/play around the consumables in said area. Kind of similar to powers being separated, but a bit more consistently dropped. Yes you can play around a set group of powers dropping in an area, but you could also play around EMP nades in Immotech or snowballs in the winter areas right now, I think you don't really have to think too much about item drops from areas, where I think the "different Biomes" should have different consumables

[rugged matrix]

It's reaaaally loaded, and TBF, I'm not sure myself. I'm mostly going with the flow without much consideration and want things to be discussed more than one person having one vision

[tawdry fiber]

Tldr.... I miss snowballs

[languid thicket]

My thought is that players will generally expect to be clearly rewarded. I think you can be freaky with what power you give a player, but most players don't perceive that freaky power as actually strong, there's a decent chance they're going to feel gypped.

[undone spruce]

Items should allow players to approach combat, matchups, and the map differently. This cannot be accomplished with stats or stat like passives alone.

The problem being that that is generally the role TC has assigned powers / consumables. Items cannot have more impact that powers / consumables because both of these rely on time investment in game to obtain. Why would I spend my time and resources to obtain powers / consumables when I could obtain comparable effects from my items?

I think at the end of the day powers / consumables are a really poor way to allow players to express game knowledge because the distribution is random and not controlled. This means that players have to adapt to what is given to them by the game. Some games you might get nothing useful for you in the vault you dropped near or some games you happen to be playing the character that gets their god tier power from a biome boss so you can play every single game to get exactly what you want to make the game easy.

This is where the BR stans are going to rise up and tell me that it's a battle royale so randomness is part of the game! Which is all well and good when the skill checks are in a first person shooters. It's nearly impossible to stat stick someone in a first person shooter. Because even if someone has all the grenades and attachments in the world you can just headshot them. Because you have to aim. The skill checks in a MOBA style game (which this is. The game is heavily influenced by MOBA combat.) are not the same as a first person shooter. I think this is why it feels REALLY bad to me that so much of the ability to express game knowledge (which is an important part of MOBA skill expression) is gated behind random chance.

I also understand that if you make it easier to express game knowledge through items, powers / consumables are going to be less sought after and their impact on the game reduced.

Good ole copy and paste

[bold urchin]

I get what you're saying, I just think that the Devs obviously do want items to be interesting and contain mastery, but our general pushback is they don't achieve it, and at least my personal point is I don't believe there is necessarily a mark to hit - it might just not be possible to achieve in this game

[tawdry fiber]

https://tenor.com/view/explosion-the-other-guys-bam-shock-boom-gif-5139825

[undone spruce]

I think there needs to be some guaranteed ways for players to express game knowledge every game. Since it is a moba

[languid thicket]

So what I'd probably do is make it more of a ratio - have some freaky choices, but make it more opt-in vs. that being the default.

[tawdry fiber]

I am always a fan of freaky things, specifically in the week format

[languid thicket]

What would be the upper end of how many Consumables you'd want to be in the pool, per Biome?

[rugged matrix]

And I'll go even farther: maybe, put more emphasis into cooking. Make each biome have a unique ingredient (that can be consumed raw) with a single stat related effect. Having access to a camp of that cooking power would allow you to cook 2 ingredients into a meal with both effects strengthened, but maybe lasting to then end of that current phase (day/night).
Imo it's a good slot to have more stat-checky stuff, whilst also rewarding gathering/scavenging/exploration and having a base

[bold urchin]

It isn't that you're meant to just deal with getting randomly screwed because it's a BR, it's that you're generally meant to, with good play, get roughly equal power - but the power you get should be somewhat randomised rather than a loadout
E.g. one team might get good powers, but another team has loads of like jumppads and armour - which team is better off? I dunno, but skill expression can come from being able to find and use the value in the diceroll you got, not just to always get the same thing and do the same thing with it to get your value

[languid thicket]

Hm, I don't think I understand what this means. I'll give an easy example though, that maybe doesn't use projectiles. Say I have a Nuke. Can I cast it from floor 1 up to floor 2? Can I ... cast it from floor 2 to floor 1?

[limber hornet]

Something that comes from the sky should just always hit the top floor

[tawdry fiber]

I think certain Consumables, like Hypervive, and bounce pads, should be available everywhere, but I do think that it would be nice to have 3-4 per biome (that may be a lot) that you could get, and one, like the EMP nades or really old snowballs, that are almost guaranteed. Physically picking items up off the ground and being able to use them as a throwable is really cool.

[limber hornet]

But I guess that's not the best example

[distant vault]

One thing about rng Im gonna bring up. some players manage to get over 100game winstreaks in games like risk of rain 2 which is almost entirely rng based. Because they know the game in and out and know how to stack the odds in their favor. Tho that game does have recyclers and printers for consistensy

[languid thicket]

I think that presumes the top floor is the same size as the bottom floor, but understood!

[distant vault]

So could a power recycler or scrapper be a fun thing to have appear randomly on the map

[rugged matrix]

Tho that doesn't need to happen in near future, it can be added later once the game has settled

[undone spruce]

That is dependent on the power being nearly equivalent or comparably equivalent through skill expression. In addition it really depends on the path to acqusition and how reliable each is.

I just don't think that works in a MOBA combat style game where power discrepency is extremely challenging to overcome through skilled micro given equal skill.

[bold urchin]

Lobs are probably a harder case than projectiles haha
I'd say that it should prioritise the level you're at, unless there's no ground in the place you're targeting, where is Will then target the layer below, unless there's no ground there, where it will then target the ground below, etc.
And projectiles should be exclusive to the layer you're on

To be clear I don't think this is really all that feasible, but maybe in a future season you could have a single area which tightly makes use of something like this just a little, and probably a lot later in the lifespan of the game so all players are much more familiar with the z axis in the game haha

[limber hornet]

Another option being it just goes where you aim it and allow aiming on anything you can see to a point (maybe 1 floor difference limit)

Whatever targeting allows

So aiming on a lower floor is probably easier

[tawdry fiber]

IE if you land in magebog, maybe you could pick up a plant that you can throw and leaves a small poison pool, or if you land in the woods you could get some vines that act as a spike pillar, stuff that really feels like you are taking things from the environment amd use them in a fight. Making the world feel more interactive. I loved the idea of stealing Immotech's WIP devises and using them in a fight, makes the world feel like a more active part of the fight.

I do agree random Consumables id paramount but "grabbing rock off ground to throw at Elluna" sounds really fun.

[limber hornet]

Yeah I think anion said the aiming things better

[languid thicket]

I'm very intrigued by multi-level maps. But yeah, there's counterplay issues that would be pretty frustrating if you could shoot up or down a level and the target didn't know where it came from.

Am very intrigued, though. 🙂

Limiting projectiles to the level you're on does somewhat make me wonder if we should just expand the map instead.

But yeah, it's interesting for sure.

[limber hornet]

Ground target > wherever it lets you aim
Projectile > your own elevation with the +/- that it currently has for elevation

[tawdry fiber]

Multi layered would also lead to "how the fuck do I get up there"

[bold urchin]

I think being on a higher level should be strictly stronger than being on a lower level
That's the main thing which I think would be really interesting about it - higher levels can drop down if they want, but you can't easily drop up
Higher levels can shoot lobs down sometimes, but lower levels can't shoot up, etc.
I think that texture is what makes it appealing compared to just expanding the map further outwards

[languid thicket]

Oh, this is interesting. It's almost like crafting on the fly.

[tawdry fiber]

"Dont do it, I have the high ground"

[rugged matrix]

Ye I love it

[tawdry fiber]

It's one of my favorite things in Monster Hunter games, being able to pick up stuff on the run and shoot it at the monster/ the environment

[silent anchor]

you underestimate my power * almsot dies *

[languid thicket]

Yeah, it makes the world feel more physical in that way.

Monster Hunter's a great example, yeah.

[distant vault]

MONSTER HUNTER! LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MONSTER HUNTER

[rugged matrix]

@languid thicket sorry for the ping, dunno if you read that

[distant vault]

[languid thicket]

Yep, there was just a lot at once, heh.

[rugged matrix]

Ye I was overwhelmed too haha

😵‍💫

[undone spruce]

To add to this- I think this works a lot better in a first person shooter that has much deeper micro than a MOBA style combat game that has much more shallow micro. The combat doesn't feel like it supports a lot of depth for executing better with different loot options. I think it is a lot easier to have a "better" set up to execute on

[tawdry fiber]

I like the thought of seeing something during a fight that I can run over, grab, and throw to turn the tides of the fight

[languid thicket]

I'm going to actually go all the way back to this post.

[undone spruce]

Like the health picks from creeps that entirely turn fights

💀

[languid thicket]

Luke's not wrong that Powers (and Consumables, to a lesser degree) eat into the power budget of other Things (ex. Equipment, Equipment Passives, Ability Levels.)

[limber hornet]

Consumables that give power for a short duration could be cool. Maybe you eat a poisonous soup thingy and it makes your attacks apply a small dot or you drink a frost resist potion to get slowed less from things

[rugged matrix]

I wouldn't necessarily say power budget in that sense. Moreso, eating out one expected outcome/design of the item system

[languid thicket]

@undone spruce Would you rather change the distribution method of each of those item types, or would you kill some of the item types too?

[tawdry fiber]

More like, you see a pineapple, or something, run over, pick it up, and then you have a throwable small heal that you can use, but you have to make the decision to go get it.

[distant vault]

Reminds me kinda of faust from guilty gear. the random shit he throws at you

[silent anchor]

what do you think of craftable powers ie having to combine two purple powers to make a red one

[languid thicket]

At high altitudes, pineapples strangely taste less sour.

[rugged matrix]

I love pineapples

[bold urchin]

I hear what you're saying I just don't think I agree that you can't have depth in executing fights better with different tools, nor that you can't hit a balance of some different drops being different but equal in our, and I think we also just disagree on finding "loadout" style progression repetitive - i think it is pretty boring if variance is low but it feels like this is less of a concern to you compared to more perfect balance

[tawdry fiber]

That sounds like a season 7 thing

[limber hornet]

Add pineapple pizza to game

[tawdry fiber]

Perfect

[silent anchor]

yeah true

[tawdry fiber]

Like, yea, could be a thing, but not early in the games life

[icy nimbus]

HE JUST LIKE ME FR FR. LOVE ROGUES (sorry, I got so excited about the DND talk I forgot this was a discussion for Supervive XD)

[undone spruce]

Not entirely sure. I think that some of the biome leader changes have felt really good for certain characters / playstyles. Being able to have a much higher chance to play for a specific power feels really good for that character's plan.

On the flip side- If you aren't benefited by this it feels pretty bad because now other characters are unlocked by biome boss drops and others aren't.

[languid thicket]

I could see variants of this, but yeah. I wonder if you would be frustrated if you couldn't craft something you were after. Would we want to make Powers easier to acquire? And then..do Red Powers become more accessible again?

[unique agate]

i dont think we need more ways to get red powers

[silent anchor]

i see it more of a way to make red powers less acessible having to colect two specific powers for it

agree on the frustration part though

[languid thicket]

Gotcha. Yeah, there's just a tension there, for sure.

[limber hornet]

More powers would probably reward teams behind who just died

[distant vault]

I would love to chase an icarus wings joule every end circle

[languid thicket]

All good. I've definitely seen this note come up before, which makes sense. Some of the Passives are in stores for that reason. Just let me know as you get more sure.

[languid thicket]

Alright, going back to this note.

[rugged matrix]

Hype

[languid thicket]

Ahh, yeah - this is going into deepening cooking. A proper cookbook.

Ingredients would ideally be scavenged? Vs. farmed for or bought?

Is what I'm reading, but double-checking what you're imagining.

[rugged matrix]

Could be scavenged or bought even if you want

[distant vault]

I am a little scared of the idea of consumables that activate fast and have very strong effects. Its a little hard to tell what the enemy has in their consumable slots.

[silent anchor]

give me a tiny berry vendor or smth hell yeah

[languid thicket]

Yeah, I think this is a good callout.

[rugged matrix]

But if a cooked meal takes time to consume, gives a long lasting effect (an entire day phase) and you can't have 2 active at the same time

[languid thicket]

Wiping effects helps, for sure.

Wind-ups, too. I always wonder what the appetite is for Consumable wind-ups.

They exist, but we make them pretty contextual to the item right now.

[limber hornet]

I think you could easily have consumables that give power for like 10 seconds

And make them take like normal food eating time

Though that might promote dive too much

[lucid atlas]

Consumables that give power-ups would be neat (like more movespeed for X seconds), but with how fast combat already is on average, it might be hard to make them have sufficient play-against options.

[languid thicket]

Hmm, yeah. I think this group's doing a good job identifying some of the constraints.

[lucid atlas]

Because wtf do you do if a Felix pops a go-fast potion off-screen and then zooms in?

[limber hornet]

There's some food types in albion that give regen if you haven't taken damage in a while. That could be a thing maybe

[olive shore]

Just checking in. I don't like the idea of effects that dramatically increase combat strength that are randomly available. That's what I'm seeing from the cookbook stuff

[languid thicket]

Oh man. I don't know if I'd give a movespeed potion option, hahah. But I don't know if Nitpy mentioned that also, to be fair.

[lucid atlas]

I don't like the idea of effects that dramatically increase combat strength that are randomly available
Agreed, since then your ability to combat any given team is partly up to the RNG of what consumables they have gotten so far vs. what you have gotten.

[icy nimbus]

I feel the direction with the consumable conversation as well is making it feel more like just another variable to keep in mind when there already is a lot to keep in mind, not to mention how @lucid atlas brought up how it might be hard to make it "sufficient play-against". I think keeping consumables where they don't overpower someone so much is important if we want variability in what options we have as consumables

[languid thicket]

Are you in between rolls?? 🙂

[olive shore]

The party is split rn, so I've got downtime

[lucid atlas]

Also, since it's on my mind and I've seen this idea come up before in other threads, IMO, adding "crafting" steps to consumables (i.e. being able to cook some unique food from a given biome into the actually strong version of it) would not add enough potential play-against; adding more steps to do something doesn't make that something easier to combat mid-fight.

[limber hornet]

They don't need to be super strong either. A simple 3-5% here or there would probably be a fine tradeoff to making stuff and using it and it occupying a consumable slot

[languid thicket]

Yeah, this is where we got to in terms of where Consumables should generally play. It's not perfect, but yeah.

[queen echo]

Wait am I too late

POWER USER

[languid thicket]

Whoa!

[hearty frigate]

I've missed most of this combo so forgive me if someone else mentioned this but I feel the number of different consumables is fine, maybe could add one or two more, but some consumables could have more depth and could tie in other systems. For example, some weapon specializations could be things like "scan gernades reveal stealth and can be retrieved after being thrown" or "can stack 2 jump pads instead of 1" so you can build your weapon around the consumable you want to use. The danger here is if the consumable buffs are too strong it becomes frustrating to guess if someone has the weapon enhancement for it, etc.

[queen echo]

You told me to bring it up

[languid thicket]

Hello!

[olive shore]

I should also clarify: I think powers are fine because you can see what your opponents have, but it gets complicated with hidden effects

[queen echo]

It has been brought up.

[languid thicket]

Yes!

[queen echo]

Hello

[languid thicket]

Can you...remind me what you wanted to mention about Power User?

[distant vault]

One thing I like about most current consumables that the enemy can react to them. Someone lobs a grenade. you see it fly and have time to react. I think most consumables should work like that. If we where to add more.

[rugged matrix]

Uh, I should reiterate on the cookbook stuff: I don't think it should be on release, but might be worth digging into once Supervive is rolling 👀

[icy nimbus]

It also begs the questions, does consumables have to be a "complicated" system?

I love the idea of maybe having to go to certain basecamps to cook up a special consumable (I have skimmed through the discussion to catch up, I am unsure if this is spot on or not), that reminds me of realm royale in a sense and it also adds to basecamps where fighting over them is that much more important. I think adding value to basecamps in that way could be cool

[queen echo]

lol I mainly just wanted to talk about the POWER of the item and how it effects the gameplay loop

[languid thicket]

Agreed; makes sense!

[olive shore]

Fair. I can imagine a special game mode where this exists

[lucid atlas]

IMO cooking special consumables would end up as something that opposing players need to know about. That is the kind of thing that I would drop BR mode over.

[queen echo]

I don’t like that power user can lock two powers AND give insane cdr for such a low investment

[languid thicket]

Ahhh. I like this.

[rugged matrix]

That's my angle, and it the system isn't very complicated. Imagine like a pepper adding dmg on hit of lmb, or a berry giving out of combat ms, but tiny if raw, stronger if cooked together and acting in pair

[languid thicket]

That's a cool wrinkle.

[zinc creek]

how about a gigantify potion

[queen echo]

Certain teams and champions focus on getting the same items almost every game and keeping them the whole game

[bold urchin]

"I love being the group's pack mule", the weapon
Maybe not something we should advocate for haha

[rugged matrix]

OR A SHROOM IN THE FOREST INCREASING YOUR SIZE

[tawdry fiber]

I think a cooking system is a cool "lets add this for a seasonal update" style system

[rugged matrix]

Yep

Or something to dynamise exploration in a season yes

[icy nimbus]

Agreed, maybe certain sounds play when someone is cooking a specific consumable or you got a notification? I like the idea that you have to cook at base camp and everyone see's when it is finished (and the progress bar when it is almost finished) and then someone can steal it potentially or you can like fight someone for it. It adds another way to fight and incentives PvP so that could be cool

[distant vault]

I really would like a nimbus cloud type consumable. like a one time use platform you throw into the abyss. Would maybe be found in that area with all the wind gust fans.

[hearty frigate]

huge power user abuser enjoyer here, agreed that 40% reduction is insane and I have a really funny clip posted by Accel from last playtest of having power user plus 2 chonker cannons for infinite projectiles everywhere. I like that it is very strong and unique but 40% is a bit much. I think locking them is necessary otherwise if you get revived with no powers you also dont have a weapon buff. Maybe only locking one slot as a compromise could work

[lucid atlas]

I would argue that if cooking food needs a global notification to be balanced, then perhaps that food is too much

[distant vault]

What if one slot is locked and the other has reduced cd?

Little risk and reward

[icy nimbus]

That is valid, good point : D

[hearty frigate]

definately a possible problem but something that imo wouldnt be a problem if implemented right. My examples probably aren't the best for balance but def good point on consolidating jump pads for inventory space

[queen echo]

I think power user makes the game too power focused though, if you don’t have great powers locked you are going to have a terrible time against the teams that do.

[lucid atlas]

Also, at the end of the day, the main mode is battle royale, so I'm a bit biased against things that obfuscate the "battle royale" part of "battle royale".

[olive shore]

I think that was the case before power user anyway

[queen echo]

Yeah but it wasn’t as bad lol

Blink goes to a 6-7 second cooldown

And you can’t lose it

[lucid atlas]

Power User letting you keep exotics is ????

[icy nimbus]

Would you consider bosses part of the battle royale experience? I am just curious how you draw the line between playing around base camps for like 45 seconds if someone is brewing something compared to a boss fight which would roughly be the same

[queen echo]

Just watch nidhoggs void videos it’s kinda nasty how he can attempt the same play over and over until it works

With ZERO drawbacks

[lucid atlas]

Bosses are fine because they're telegraphed super far in advance.
If I'm on the other end of the map and someone starts cooking a potion of shit-yourself-to-death, how do I contest that?

[hearty frigate]

makes sense, but i think most people were taking interweaver or the funny cd reduction one anyways, but i think power user in last playtest was the strongest evo and people wouldve eventually "figured that out"

[languid thicket]

What would you like this to do? 🙂

[olive shore]

The cd is a bit much, but I don't mind the soulbound so much. Endgames often come down to who has the most resources, so having a way to retain some after death is fine with me

[queen echo]

Every good team was loaded up on power users. I’m speaking about people abusing the item, not the general playerbase

[hearty frigate]

cool idea, kinda incentivizes using one passive power to lock and one active power for cooldown reduction.

[hearty frigate]

gotcha makes sense

[distant vault]

BIG

[olive shore]

I think one slot being locked is a good compromise

Anyway, brb

[icy nimbus]

Would you say it would be the same as rotating to contest someone doing a boss fight? If not, why not. I just am really curious about your POV on the manner and want to make sure I am understanding your reason for it : D

[lucid atlas]

Again, bosses are telegraphed super far in advance.
The game tells you that there'll be a boss right there in X many seconds.

Someone starting cooking something physically will never have that same telegraph.

[queen echo]

Do we need an item that locks powers? Why is that healthy for the game? Doesn’t this just reward the teams who were going to win anyway even more?

[lucid atlas]

Also, I stand by #1297244188970057850 message

[languid thicket]

Yeah, I think it's fair to suggest - hey, can Power User players take more of a trade if they opt into this?

[icy nimbus]

Ah I see, appreciate the breakdown. Especially because players starting it spontanleously at any point on any basecamp on map doesn't really allow you to be nearby. Makes sense, thank you :))

[zinc creek]

Max health increase Idk how balanced it would be

[languid thicket]

I don't think that's how Power User ended up game state-wise, but I'll take another look.

[queen echo]

I don’t think the data will tell you anything because I’m thinking about showmatch lobbies and high mmr which is a small portion of the playerbase

[languid thicket]

Hahah, fair enough.

[lucid atlas]

Especially because players starting it spontanleously at any point on any basecamp on map doesn't really allow you to be nearby.
yes
meaning either the consumable is weak AF since it may end up being borderline uncontestable since no one can rotate in time, meaning it's not worth it
or it's just too much for a consumable and it just wins fights

also either way how do you know which enemy team has a given special cooked consumable
sure you can go off of team colors (assuming half of a lobby stops getting the same team color) but that requires they never die and another team picks it up, or they don't use it yet, etc.

[languid thicket]

We have high MMR and showmatch data.

[queen echo]

Oh interesting

[languid thicket]

Typically, we look at balance data in MMR bands anyway - I agree that's the better way to go, generally.

[hearty frigate]

I feel power user is one of the best powers in the game as a concept, even if currently unbalanced, because it allows a player to lean into the style of using active powers over passives and provides something that aren't raw stats. If nerfed properly I feel it could be a playstyle choice

[queen echo]

Yeah I see your point, I don’t think in its current state it feels fair to play against when people farm specific powers

[hearty frigate]

What do you mean by "take more of a trade"?

[languid thicket]

Like when Gay Dad brought up the CDR benefit being too high.

[icy nimbus]

Oh yeah, it def would have to be really thought out how to communicate the system b4 theyt would implement such a big thing like this. I'm not even personally for or against the idea of it, I found the idea of playing around basecamps more cool but I was just curious about your stance/position on it and I def see your points.

[queen echo]

You hit two vaults for some of the powers you want anyway, then you farm area bosses for more specific powers

[languid thicket]

It's related to your point around nerfing it such that it's more of a playstyle choice, vs. it feeling like a must-pick.

I do want to check how much it was getting picked just in case, but yeah.

[lucid atlas]

semi-related, i am absolutely 100% against giving more power to basecamps because that inherently punishes teams that fall behind and are unable to make use of a basecamp, which in turn kinda ensure that those teams stay behind

[queen echo]

My power user pick rate was prob like 90% personally lol

I felt like most of the time it was just better to have a good movement power on 40% cdr

Than taking a stat item

[hearty frigate]

Ah yea, I agree, plus the number of locked slots is another parameter to balance besides cooldown. Could be anything from only one slot is effected by both lock and cooldown to one slot is effected by only lock and the other only effected by cooldown. I like the second option better due to the tradeoffs

[languid thicket]

We should probably be careful not to tune around one person's choices, but understood. 🙂

[silent anchor]

i could see some issues with preferred hotkey and preferred lock but yeah

[hearty frigate]

I feel the current data is valuable but I also feel active powers in particular are one of the biggest learning curves in this game so I wouldn't be surprised if the data does not show how strong it will be in, say, a month worth of play time. Also, in order to take advantage of power user you need to open 2 vaults, and if you are solo queueing you rarely have control over that unless you really force it if your team doesn't want to communicate or wants to do something else. I've found myself opting not to run it in solo que, despite liking it far more than any other option, because I often couldn't get both vaults

[distant vault]

Does power user give lower ap and cd stats btw?

[languid thicket]

Totally! We played with this some, but I would love locking/unlocking slots used more as a lever.

[queen echo]

No I’m pretty sure the stats are equalized

[languid thicket]

For sure. we just have to be aware that this group is also going to vary in their intuitions on what's strong vs. not.

[icy nimbus]

WaitI read this wrong the first time LOL.

I see your point, provides a more snowbally approach. I still feel like it would be cool if they had another unqiue layer to it (idk what it would be and im not even against the current system, I just liked the idea in realm royale where you crafted an item and then had to play around that area for a bit to get that item.)

[distant vault]

Hmm. Feels like if you pick it maybe it should give less stat value as a tradeoff

[hearty frigate]

Ah sorry I meant that one or the other would be implemented and it would not be up to the player to choose, otherwise the player would choose lock + CDR on the same slot every time unless the non CDR power they had was something like abyss specialist

[queen echo]

I don’t think slightly less AP is stopping a void from locking blink and grapple

[hearty frigate]

What do you mean as a lever? As in players can choose to lock a slot or reduce cooldown?

[languid thicket]

I mean as a way to balance - a balance lever.

[rugged matrix]

I didn't know it did that

[hearty frigate]

oh gotcha thanks lol

[silent anchor]

ah i think you misunderstood i meant that if it say always locked first slot but i would prefer the power that locks on the other hotkey; as in which button i want to use that power with

[icy nimbus]

didnt know what did what : O

[rugged matrix]

That mechanic, it seems fun

[queen echo]

Also to @olive shore yes, you are rewarded late game for being ahead and it’s cool to keep that lead, but as soon as you find good powers after hitting two vaults it doesn’t matter what state your team is in, you still have those powers

[hearty frigate]

oh yea gotcha, not sure if that could be implemented since it would be a menu preference for a specific weapon augment, but I also typically use the left slot for my cooldown power if I'm only running one so I'd have to get used to using the right slot for cooldown if the right slot is what receives lower cooldown for example

[icy nimbus]

It was my fav thing in realm royale. This was like YEARS ago, I didnt play game long but it was so cool when it notified people at these forges that people were crafting items so you had to protect that area for that long. I really liked that mechanics as well

[rugged matrix]

Despite seeing lots of headlines about camp back in the day, in current Supervive I kinda see them as underwhelming

Ngl warning you're cooking in the area makes way more meta sense, sniffing that banger smell of you masterfully cooking

Tho ye Omni is right

There's a lot of things that might end up really unfair

[languid thicket]

Yeah, it's sort of a tightrope for a Base Camp.

[silent anchor]

i def like the idea but something to consider

[languid thicket]

I don't think I caught the specific idea for the Base Camps - what was it?

[olive shore]

One of the reasons I've tried to keep my feedback for the item system separate from my thoughts on balance. Things could be OP or they could be weak, I've given my feedback for both situations.

[rugged matrix]

It notifies there's something cooking to nearby players and thus, you need to protect the base until the meal is done

[languid thicket]

Ahh, gotcha gotcha.

[icy nimbus]

Omi and I were talking about Nitpy idea of a cookbook in game, where tmk specific biomes have specific consumables you can craft, and then we chatted about how it would feel as a player to where if you had to contest when someone was cooking at a basecamp and you can fight for that consumable or even steal it from enemy

[languid thicket]

Appreciate you!

[queen echo]

I’m curious what the data says about power user, I’d be surprised if it’s deemed weak

I don’t see the drawback to taking the item

[bold urchin]

Can we get the safelocked leak on how power user is getting changed/if it's getting changed for next patch?

I would love to hear what the direction is

[languid thicket]

Unfortunately not. 🙂

But I'll have a gander.

[olive shore]

[languid thicket]

I typically only share when I'm confident. Otherwise sharing here is actually not great for the team.

[bold urchin]

So you'll check but won't tell us? 😅

[distant vault]

Devilish

[rugged matrix]

Can we get the safelocked leak on how mana discussion ended internally

[languid thicket]

Lol. You guys

[icy nimbus]

💀

[silent anchor]

you'll have a male goose? (not a native sry)

[distant vault]

She keeps things safely locked away. no way we getting leaks out of her

[icy nimbus]

Jess takes time out of her day to talk to us about state of game.

Us: What about leaks tho 😋

[languid thicket]

Oh, it means - I'll take a look, haha.

[olive shore]

Can we get the safelocked leak on favorite DnD characters within the dev team?

[languid thicket]

The team actually also does read this thread, too.

[icy nimbus]

asking the REAL questions

[languid thicket]

I actually don't know...but I personally enjoyed playing a Dragonborn Paladin and a Half-Elf Druid.

I love 5e.

[unique agate]

gotta ask shaun for leaks

[languid thicket]

Need to ask the team now...must know.

But yeah, with the remaining time left, let me start summarizing some of the items notes...

Makes it easier for folks to digest, too.

[rugged matrix]

I phased out long ago (tho I've been designing for entire days recently 💀)

[queen echo]

Maybe I’m wrong about my assumption on power user being OP. I just don’t like playing against it when people have strong red/purple powers, if you wipe 3 of their players, including the power users you don’t get their powers and they get to use them against you again later. This patch especially teams felt very slippery until late game when they are forced to fight and I think power user was a part of the problem. Maybe this is just because of certain synergies with powers but i feel like that’s only going to get worse as the hunter roster grows and people find more combos

[hearty frigate]

This is true, power user scales on the efficacy of powers. The stronger cooldown based powers are the stronger power user becomes, and red powers are designed to be very strong without it

[queen echo]

An example of this is when a void grapple blinks someone two screens away and instantly makes the fight 3v4 without much way to counter it in most situations. If you don’t know there’s a void with grapple blink, it’s already too late for you in most cases. Same with the strength of kp stealth/blink, the power gets exacerbated by adding 40% cdr and the only drawback is you might die, but once your team resses you, you get to try again

[olive shore]

There are many powerful/unbalanced items, but I think it is better to take this time to discuss the systems in the game as opposed to specific items.

[queen echo]

I was told to talk about power user

So that’s what I’m doing lol

I’m confused why talking about balance is a bad thing

It effects the gameplay directly

[languid thicket]

• Enchantments - Started the conversation talking about old Enchantments. Some debate around whether this should come back in its old form, what the pros and cons of the system were, whether it was valuable to have it be its own separate system or integrated. Some desire to see old Enchantment effects added to the pool of Equipment Passives.
• More Consumables - Some desire to see more types of Consumables. Some desire for Consumables that you could find and wield in the world (ex. vines you cut that you then use as as Spike Wall.) Wielding what the world give you. Embiggening potions also came up.
• Scavenging Powers/Consumables - Some discussion around how desirable as a skill this is vs. having it be something you could plan and work towards reliably each session.
• Deepening Equipment Passive interactions - One idea that came up was - could Equipment Passives play into Consumable efficacy? Ex. Stronger Scan Grenades, more Stacks of Jump Pad.
• Cooking - Some ideas around - should cooking be more of a thing? Some debate around whether Consumables that grant buffs quickly would lead to more difficult play-against scenarios. Some discussion around ways to compensate ex. communicating power, longer wind-ups.
• Power User - Feeling that this seems like a must-pick, particularly at high MMR where stronger Powers and Power combinations are better understood. Some like the shape of this because it allows you to be wrinkly in your build; others want to see more of a trade here if someone builds it.

Nooo, my format.

Editing...

Also, talking about balance is all good! I asked for the feedback.

[lucid atlas]

Balance of one specific item still ties into balance as a whole anyway.

[olive shore]

It isn't a bad thing, but I wanted us to keep in mind that it is one of many problematic items. We could also discuss Amplifier, or Greed, or Rampage, or so many others, and those conversations would be valid, but I think only so much can be considered before we need to look at the systems that enable items to consistently be a problem point

[lucid atlas]

Since "why is this item too strong/weak/etc" inevitably ties into the overarching systems.

[queen echo]

The system is evolutions right and this specific evolution is strong in my opinion

[distant vault]

I think its been taken into consideration and can be now moved on from?

[queen echo]

lol bro

Everyone is dictating the conversation rn

I said my final piece

[distant vault]

I do agree with you. And you where told to talk about it. so its fine

[queen echo]

Only items I would consider on the level of power user are amp and maybe rampage.

And amp is situationally good but has clear drawbacks, whereas I feel power user is lacking any drawback

[distant vault]

It doesnt really have a drawback so

[languid thicket]

Yeah, it's all good. We talked about Rampage and Amplifier before - it's helpful to understand how much of it is balance vs. the gameplay output people are nervous about.

[hearty frigate]

The drawback of power user is not getting 2 vaults, which is much more controllable on a premade team than solo queue

[queen echo]

Yeah premade teams can drop the same spot every game and get the same powers essentially

[languid thicket]

@queen echo Can you take a look at my summary note around Power User? Double-checking that I've reflected back your note.

[queen echo]

Yeah this summarizes what I was saying

I don’t think it’s power is understood outside of a few teams and players

But I’ve been vod reviewing a lot and I’ve noticed how consistent power user is for teams success rates

[rugged matrix]

Great summary

[languid thicket]

Oh, my scavenging powers/consumables note got cut off - one sec.

Ok, now we're good, heh.

[languid thicket]

Oh, that's another thing I want to check. How often low MMR players were choosing this, too. I have no idea, but I am curious!

[queen echo]

I’ll be honest I think low mmr players just click the recommended items

But maybe they are using it

[languid thicket]

Yeah, I guess I should say - low to mid.

You're probably right with Low.

[distant vault]

Im gonna say a little view on item stats. I think you could have different feels to the items if they had different stats. Like techblade giving less AP but was more CDR heavy. More abilities but less dmg.
Kinda how in league if you go for a cd ap item you tend to trade burst dmg for uptime.
Kinda wish items had those kinds of trades rn. and that manablade was more of a choise for "I want forgiveness for occasional misses and be better in a long fight" not "My hunter NEEDS manablade to function

[queen echo]

I believe the first evolution patch toyed with stat differences between evolutions but it wasn’t well received im guessing

[olive shore]

Yea

[hearty frigate]

I feel like manablade alone could have an entire 3 hour discussion around it, for another time, definately something id like to be a part of as well

[queen echo]

It gave players what felt like even less of a choice, you wanted the most dmg output

[distant vault]

Kinda meaning that as baseline you feel like you have a techblade but I guess dmg is just too important

[distant vault]

that did kinda happen last time

[hearty frigate]

oops i missed it i guess lol

[rugged matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/super-mario-galaxy-supernova-black-hole-explosion-space-gif-21936257

Us with mana last time

[queen echo]

That’s why amp is cool but you’re only getting the cdr for one ability, it’s still fun however

[languid thicket]

I still think this is cool, but yeah. There's a bunch of trades with - do players feel like they have to go down certain item trees? In some ways, League players feel some of that pain too.

[hearty frigate]

Also super random kinda off topic note, now that the weapon upgrade system has changed could we see the return of vampiric helm 👀

[silent anchor]

not as bad in league i think because there are so many items to choose from

[distant vault]

One thing that I think kinda ruins league players is stat websites. I feel like I have way more success when I go for an item I THINK would be good instead of going for the build that is "reccomended"

[queen echo]

Raw damage is going to be what people pick and play with the most because at the end of the day every hunter wants to deal as much dps as possible. CDR for damage means more uptime on abilities but overall less dps

[rugged matrix]

Many to chose from but over the years if you fart in the wrong direction, changes to the game happen and your funny off meta build that didn't do any harm get sidelined and a single, one build size fits all gets enforced in every aspect

[distant vault]

Talking with some OTP's Ive noticed they have insane matchup excell sheets with items that work well against certain picks. Lightrocket (challenger TARIC Jungle main) goes a different build every game and adapts to what the enemy has

[languid thicket]

Yep. op.gg and Blitz.

[distant vault]

Azzap (velkoz goat) has the same thing

[queen echo]

Light rocket mentioned

[silent anchor]

thats why i stopped playing league lmao

[languid thicket]

I wouldn't say ruin, but it definitely..heh. There's a lot more consolidation that happened over time.

[rugged matrix]

Me too

[distant vault]

I do the same thing with my UDYR

[languid thicket]

But it did teach me that a lot of players also don't want to engage in League in that way.

I was sort of surprised because I actually don't love looking at guides.

[queen echo]

League has so many champions and items it’s overwhelming for most players to theorycraft

[languid thicket]

But yeah, you'd be surprised how many people don't want to engage in itemization.

[queen echo]

It’s much easier to google a build and play

[languid thicket]

For sure.

[rugged matrix]

Tho it begs the question, would they have engaged in League, or even, had fun figuring stuff by themselves if those weren't a thing?

[distant vault]

Imo kinda fault of the tutorial for telling you to go thronmail on ashe

[languid thicket]

But now, you'll never forget the meme.

[silent anchor]

skill issue kind of methinks

[languid thicket]

It happens all the time at high MMR too.

[distant vault]

I feel in love with leagues itemization but that kinda fell off in the last years

[languid thicket]

Not sure! But I can't tell a player what to do.

I can't stop a player from using op.gg or using Blitz.

[queen echo]

Not rly a skill issue just I don’t want to critically think about itemization on a video game issue

League already has a lot of things to think about

[silent anchor]

yeah but refusing to think about if its actually good can hinder you

[languid thicket]

We could theoretically try to reduce scraping. But there are many teams who want to offer that kind of info, so it usually is just a matter of time. Which is tough, because a lot of website have incomplete information, too.

[distant vault]

One person who is an avid hater of stat websites is mortdog from the TFT team. he vocally has been against stat websites because he thinks they make people worse at the game and less adaptable

[languid thicket]

I think this is totally it. Regardless of what we feel or prefer, there's going to be a large group of players who feel this way about a deep game.

[queen echo]

I will say I think my skill trajectory on supervive vs league is insanely different because there aren’t resources to find the most optimal thing online

[rugged matrix]

Players, or should I say people, tend to chose the path of least resistance. Having a path all figured out, mathematically correct and consistent on all aspects is that said path, so no wonders it's used a loooot and people refuse to take the time. That's where the grey area is, would have they really engaged in it if it wasn't helped by what is mostly a solver using data gathered on players? Eeeeh

[queen echo]

League for me was focusing on matchups and win conditions, items I just locked it in and played outside of healing reduction and other small situational things, but I’ve never been a player to theorycraft builds in ranked against different comps and matchups

[rugged matrix]

You can always hinder them and put them in situation where a "solver" (op.gg and the sort aren't really solvers, but you get it) can't help them, and hone their critical skill

[languid thicket]

You know. For as much as I know Mort laments stat websites (so do I.) Shocking amount of players who just love slamming TFT builds from Mobalytics.

[rugged matrix]

AEURGH 🤮

[languid thicket]

Hahaha.

I think it's just..therapeutic, maybe?

I don't think ill of anyone for it.

[silent anchor]

so how can you encourage players to think about things like itembuilds instead of just using the first search result

[queen echo]

You get off your 8 hour shift

You just wanna play

[distant vault]

You get home from you 9 to 5 put your 4 kids to bed and have an hour to play. Cant blame those people that much.

[languid thicket]

Yeah, I think people just want to feel something. Win and chill out.

[unique agate]

i use it sometimes when i just wanna turn brain off and watch series

[queen echo]

I think league would be a much smaller game if not for stat websites

[languid thicket]

Most likely.

[queen echo]

Casuals would be overwhelmed

[distant vault]

But a shocking amount of people who try and grind ranked do it and its weird to me

[rugged matrix]

You know I really dread the time if my tactical draft game actually becomes a thing and... people use websites like this to figure out ideal team comps 💀

[languid thicket]

It's definitely a - I shout from my lawn type of thing.

[distant vault]

Did league have stat websites in the first years?

[limber hornet]

Casuals definitely don't use those sites

[rugged matrix]

I REALLY dread it

[languid thicket]

By S2, definitely.

[queen echo]

That’s anecdotal lol I know a lot of casuals who Google builds

[languid thicket]

End of S1...I don't remember.

[unique agate]

mobafire builds meme

[distant vault]

If you google X champ name from league you get X champ aram mobafire very often

[languid thicket]

We'll hold hands together.

[queen echo]

Brand new players aren’t going to know about those websites, sure but I think a casual level 200 is using those websites

[limber hornet]

People who use them were going to play anyway though right?

[rugged matrix]

Standing together in disbelief 😭

[languid thicket]

Hahaha.

I think one thing that's nice about SUPERVIVE being an action game, though. Is that it gives room for misplay.

Even if you know the "right" answers.

[queen echo]

Not really up to me to say, but imagine a situation where you’re a league vet who has been gone for 5 years and you come back to all of these new items

You’re going to google builds

And figure out what’s meta

If you didn’t have those resources you’d just get confused and have to start over

[distant vault]

I used the build sites as training wheels basically

[languid thicket]

Totally. And sometimes it's just fun content to watch, too.

[rugged matrix]

And also, it's a battle royale, and its course to consistency really hinders that process. You could say TFT has that feature, but it's not an action game, so it's mostly reserved to Battle Royales or Roguelikes/lites

[distant vault]

but once I understood how stuff works I realized they where holding me back

[limber hornet]

I think I was mostly referencing this. I don't think people who may or may not play base it on stat websites, but gonna end here as it's a bit off topic

[queen echo]

I imagine if there weren’t resources for people to use the game would push a lot of people away

[silent anchor]

using recources is different from mindlessly building something tho

[languid thicket]

I wouldn't describe the funnel as - I go to a guide, then choose whether or not I'll play.

[queen echo]

Yeah it’s more like idk what’s going on let me just google what’s good on my character

[rugged matrix]

Varus lethality players 💀

[languid thicket]

The more likely funnel was probably - I play, but I want to get better and win more. Where can I go to optimize?

If there isn't a clear answer, you're probably more likely to churn faster.

If the answer at least - I can go to a website or an app for clear guidance on what I can do better - that can help.

[queen echo]

I don’t think that’s true actually, people are going to build the build mindlessly

They’re going to see the 6 items they need to build and not read the guide

And just play

[rugged matrix]

It's great also if the game has goalposts that are easily identifiable to determine general strategies to opt in, and why those are strategies

[lucid atlas]

Disagree.
Checking to see what people are building to begin with =/= mindlessly following the build themselves

[silent anchor]

i agree that players are doing that but its not a good use of the resource

[queen echo]

Okay but we’re talking about casuals guys

[languid thicket]

Alright. I know we're deep into the API side of things. But it's 1PM, so I should probably take off.

[rugged matrix]

Ye, take some rest, tomorrow is monday

And mondays are long

[queen echo]

They don’t care if it’s optimal use

[languid thicket]

I appreciate y'all.

[hearty frigate]

thanks for stoppin by!

[languid thicket]

Please feel free to keep going, as usual. I'll be reading!

[queen echo]

Have a great Sunday 😄

[limber hornet]

[rugged matrix]

Have a good night, love to discuss!

[languid thicket]

You too!

[rugged matrix]

Oh wait

I'm brainrotted

[olive shore]

Cya safelocked! Take care

[rugged matrix]

It's afternoon for you xd

[languid thicket]

Haha, all good. If it's evening for you, good evening!

[queen echo]

Why do these two things have to be separate

[olive shore]

DnD still going. We're easter egg hunting for portable holes. Gotta go!

[lucid atlas]

Because they're inherently separate things.

[rugged matrix]

Have fun mate

[queen echo]

They aren’t tho, you find chovys build for the champion and you run it

No thinking required

[limber hornet]

When you find one

[lucid atlas]

Who is "you" in this sentence?

[silent anchor]

sweet have fun!

[queen echo]

The average player

Not someone trying to be challenger or diamond

A guy in silver

[lucid atlas]

I'm a guy in silver and I definitely do not just mindlessly follow builds.

[queen echo]

You’re speaking for yourself here

[lucid atlas]

Correct.

[queen echo]

You aren’t the average player in this case

[limber hornet]

Ngl I still use aram zone and I have challenger aram mmr

[queen echo]

Even if your mmr is average

[lucid atlas]

I defer to my previous statement #1297244188970057850 message

Those two things are inherently different things, even if one may lead to the other for some players.

[queen echo]

You just admitted they can be connected

[lucid atlas]

I never claimed they could never be connected.

I claimed that they were separate things.

tl;dr: A -> B =/= A == B

[queen echo]

And I never said they were exactly the same thing for everyone but some people will look up what’s good for my champion; find the highest winrate build and play

They didn’t sit there and read a 50 page guide or vod review to find the most optimal build

You might do that and most people who are trying to get better will do that as well, but the pipeline for the average player is let me see what good players are running or what is the most upvoted build, or what’s the highest winrate build and then they run the build

[lucid atlas]

I am not contesting that the "average" player will likely go with whatever is most commonly built.
I am saying that "using resources" is different from "mindlessly following resources", even for the average player that does both.

[queen echo]

You’re diving into semantics I think

Using resources is the same as finding a build

You used the resource available

And found your optimal build

[limber hornet]

Just be bigbrain and figure it out yourself

[lucid atlas]

Which is as equally semantics-driven as I am being, I suppose.

"using resources" and "finding build" are largely interchangable in this context.

[queen echo]

Yeah so what’s the issue lol

They are interchangeable

[lucid atlas]

#1297244188970057850 message

[queen echo]

Okay we are talking in circles

Let’s agree to disagree

[lucid atlas]

My stance has been the same since we started.

[olive shore]

Yea, that's Gay Dad's point

[queen echo]

That’s called talking in circles

[lucid atlas]

Feel like it's more miscommunication on my part about what my point is rather than anything else

but oh well

[rough peak]

i missed the items talk, but my 2 cents are the current system is the best one, personally wouldnt change anything.
but would like the shards to group when they're close together so its easier to pick up.
And that when you swap the items in your inventory they change the prio in which they upgrade(just for some extra minmaxing)
and if you pick up a helmet on ground when hybrid it goes into the appropriate slot and not the blade slot.

[turbid vine]

Woah there were some interesting discussions in this chat earlier today.

I am now totally flashbanged by the idea of craftable powers. Someone earlier said that keeping the power budget on items relatively low makes sense, and I fully agree with that, because you cant predict what is in someone's inventory. Like even jump pad is borderline a little too strong for an item. So craftable strong items = bad (IMO).

But what if instead of crafting items we're crafting powers? power budget problem is now gone. Also, if we lock certain components behind certain biomes it now further incentivizes that gathering fantasy. And now we're adding further diversity to the map as well, like maybe over in chaos steppes there is a component that can be crafted into a relatively strong power that further incentivizes teams to drop there. It would be a good way to help balance the map which (IMO) in current state feels pretty unbalanced. (1/2)

[pliant coral]

Okay I was mentioned above by @rugged matrix and I wish I was around to chat because this conversation about itemization looks like it was a banger. I'd feel pretty bad if I didn't at least try to get my take seen by a developer so here's a link directly to it on @olive shore's thread. #1299487716131733504 message

To sum it up in way too few words to hopefully grab your interest:

Standardized item stats, more unique gameplay altering passives, less combat stat changes.

Thanks a ton in advance if you end up checking this out

[turbid vine]

The other side of this is that now managing inventory has a bit more depth, like do I want to hold this jump pad or all these components I want to turn into a banger power for my hunter? There could also be craftable (low power budget) items too but it would be cool to incentivize component hoarding a lil bit. (potentially hairbrained idea that is probably a bad idea because some people play solos: but imagine if to craft really good powers it was a team effort where you needed more than 1 inventories worth of components, then you throw em all in a pot and it takes some time to brew with a notification on the map).

The other fun side effect is that now power acquisition feels marginally less RNG, because you can go to different biomes to get components to craft powers as this alternative build path option if your vault gambling isnt going well. Now I'm even imagining if everything but red powers was craftable, and the recipe takes from further and further biomes as you move up the rarity gradient for powers. At the very high end of powers maybe you even have teams considering taking big risks to acquire components, like splitting up after drop to loot 4 very distant biomes. (2/2)

[rugged matrix]

The cooking idea I had had very similar branches too that your powers can stand on too: Hoarding and stealing. Like you said you can make powerful things out of 2 components at the opposites of the map... But if you're "lucky", you can stumble upon a team that has what you need, or you can be such a team.
So you end up with a deeper "Is it worth fighting" and map path analysis than before, that might not be a great idea for now, but could kick the game again when it's installed.

But ye maybe Power Crafting is more interesting than Cooking, or both could exist dunno, I'd love to see emphasis on gathering/scavenging/inventory management and that idea in Realm Royale where it notifies teams that something's brewing could add both a beginner friendly incentive and goal to camps, both on the go craft and go pillage side.

Now we need to Terrablade of Supervive

[spiral fable]

while i like the ideas of this (especially in terms of powers); I do think it's important to not over-incentivize PvE. Fighting should be incentivized in BRs, as with no incentive the best way to win would be to hide until top 2. I hope if this idea gets implemented, that there's some consideration to that too.

I don't know what ideas were made for gathering components. But maybe the vaults in the zones could hold the components?

[rugged matrix]

Could be vaults, on monsters or just in the plain wild ready to be picked up TBF. Not something that makes you over focus pve, moreso something that draws a clearer path on the map and can be challenged by enemy encounters

And since you need a camp to craft/cook it, when it gets notified when it starts, defending the camp from other players will be the key of it

[spiral fable]

I think in the plain wild ready to be picked up would make it too easy to sneakily gather it under the noses of other teams, rather than an objective to be played for. But I like the monster idea too.

The defending of the camp I could see not be as impactful as you'd want it to be. Pop a UAV, find a relatively open corner of the zone (there usually is one), plop it down and you're good to go

[rugged matrix]

Also you're encouraged still dealing with other teams, they might have ingredients/components on them that you don't, and might open new recipes

[spiral fable]

The recipes cant be complicated tho, or you'd end up going down the trap of players needing to study an entire cookbook before entering the game instead of something that would feel fun and intuitive - so I don't think there could be too many different components or recipes

[rugged matrix]

For cooking (crafting powers isn't my idea), I had something similar to Core Keeper or even the more recent Echoes of Wisdom : each ingredient has a specific, mostly stat (altering) effect, and cooking makes you pick 2 ingredients, mix their effect and strengthen them for that day phase when consumed

Each biome having its own ingredient

[spiral fable]

If you read new player feedback in some of the other discussion threads, a key take-away is that the map already feels a bit overwhelming and confusing to new players; So I wouldn't want it to be too complicated. And I think it's hard to both get the fantasy of "this system is cool and interesting" while also not making it unnecessarily complicated to get into

[rugged matrix]

Ye I get that too, tho I'd say one of the reasons it's complicated is that there is no big goal post of getting a camp too

Its impact might be too diluted for now, despite being quite powerful

It's full of "you can", but no "big time" if you get what I mean

[spiral fable]

I mean, the basecamp is already incredibly powerful in the macro game. I don't think adding another, possibly convoluted, system would make new players more likely to realize the basecamp strength than they already are - but I could be wrong. I was more enthusiastic about the idea when I started chatting here, but now I'm maybe thinking that this is something that should be left to cook (pun intended) until the game has matured a little bit and the current objectives feel more obvious to the playerbase?

I think it's a cool concept tho!

[rugged matrix]

Oh I deffo agree on that one, that type of concept has barely any place on release

[rugged matrix]

And ye camps are strooong, but their strength is hard to quantify for new players because they don't value consumables all that much, they hardly have a grasp of armour, they don't know how to use the UAV... Hence the "you can" vs marking it as an actually big time

[vapid garnet]

I know I'm late to the party. I am not sure if it was mentioned but I didn't see anyone talk about the fact that Power User makes the powers soulbound. I feel like there isn't that big of a downside to dying in the game currently and Power User makes it even less punishing. Not sure how people feel about this but I do think red powers should always drop on death.

[spiral fable]

I agree. I think Power User already adds a lot if it lets you keep purple tier and below

[vapid garnet]

And don't get me wrong I agree with people that think Power User is interesting and I think it is a great design just because you focus more on using powers. The thing is just that dying is very "free" at the moment. Someone getting knocked is not that big of a deal and getting stomped is not that big of a deal either. With Power User you spawn and run to a shop to buy an armor and run it down again. Sometimes people do a split revive and the other person jumps off the map to get revived and get the band back together. I don't think intentionally dying should ever be a thing.

[spiral fable]

To me it also matters that it's really hard to know when entering a fight if the enemy has poweruser. You either need to know the player and their habits, or have fought them previously. You could go for a risky fight and go all in to try to claim a couple red powers for the comeback, while the enemy isn't actually risking anything as long as one of them escapes. If at least the red powers dropped still, then there'd be some reward for taking a risky fight like that - even if they keep their purples

[hearty frigate]

This was discussed, the problem is that if both powers are soulbound dying is much less punishing, but if no powers are soulbound you effectively don't have an evolution when you are revived. An idea people came up with was to have one slot be soulbound and the other slot receive the cooldown reduction, so you had to risk your power that you are leveraging for cooldown but at least get to keep one when revived.

[cloud pewter]

Late asf but i lowkey disagree with this

I feel like stat websites help people just pick up a character without having to think too much about things surrounding the character, they can just go for the genuinely optimal items whilst focusing more on piolting the character

As people become more acustome to the character and get more games/experiences that's when i feel like they start changing the build situationally like most better players should as now they have a understanding of the character to the point where they get more headspace to think about how to build differently

it's easy to play yone and just go xyz items for damage and focus on using the kit of the character efficiently instead of thinking "grasp or pta" "crit or bork for this comp" as well as still not fully understanding how to use the kit properly

At least in lower mmr lobbies or supervive which i've been in by playing with some friends most things outside of damage don't really seem to effect fights/outcomes that much, i just told my new friends to just go reccomended and focus on what they're actual abitlies/character does before tinkering around with items and such as that should always come before theory crafting

Items still kinda suck for that theory crafting anyways but that's been said 100 times already

[vapid garnet]

Ok sorry I missed this part. That sounds like an interesting idea and I like but I still think the red powers should always drop on death. For example, I don't think CDR is very important for blink. If you get a blink stun on someone and delete them instantly, you have won already.
There might be some red powers that do better with CDR than others, but I don't think most of them scale that well with CDR. I am not saying that CDR on blink is not good but I would think that the biggest value for blink comes from the actual "blink reveal".

[hearty frigate]

yea safelocked mentioned using power locking as a lever for balancing so theres a lot of options for the TC team to pick; im curious what they will try next

[languid thicket]

Morning!

[tawdry fiber]

Morioh Cho Radio Good morning!

[dense swallow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/193278651020738561/1128912793962303548/844992747832213544.gif

[languid thicket]

Just got to this coffee shop.

Think I can spend an hour before errands - so I’ll spend some more time afterward when I’m done with those.

Reading what’s above…

[bold urchin]

Good morning Jess!

[jaunty blaze]

Good morning c:

[languid thicket]

Oh, I'm glad I read this, @rough peak . Shard pick-up's improved. 🙂

Morning!!

Alright, yeah - I think the API discussion outlined a good debate. The tension continues.

With the game coming out soon, anything we want to cover today?

We could finally go back to one of the Hunters, heh.

[bold urchin]

Is there something the team is looking for feedback on in particular?

Oh!

one thing I remembered

I think spell icons look better with dark backgrounds

E.g. kingpin's current spell icons

These are all nice dark background icons which makes it easy to see them at more of a glance

[languid thicket]

When you say look better, is it mainly a style preference, readability, or--

[bold urchin]

but we all know these are WIP

[languid thicket]

Yep.

[bold urchin]

and then assault's new icons

[languid thicket]

Helpful! Understood.

[bold urchin]

the white makes them look cheaper and harder to read for e.g. cooldown timer & out of mana etc.

[dense swallow]

We are all gamers. We know dark mode is goated

[bold urchin]

it also looks out of place compared to basically every other game's spell icons being primerily dark (outside of maybe overwatch? but those spell icons are slightly translucent I think?)

[tawdry fiber]

Yea, the readability of those are a but rough, also dont know how "at a glance" I can get info on if its on cooldown or not

[languid thicket]

We're tuning how much of that light color we're using too.

[bold urchin]

👍

my personal thought is that the ultimate has a good ratio if you want it, the others are all far too white

[languid thicket]

Gotcha, gotcha. Taking the CD note.

[languid thicket]

Yeah, I think internally we were enjoying the new passes mostly because all the Hunters have their own sets now. 🙂 But understood.

[bold urchin]

I like the new icons a lot

but its just strange for it to be a white background

[tawdry fiber]

I think just for a rule of thumb there shouldn't ever be a question of "Is this on cooldown" or not, even at just a glance, the contrast between Dark Icon and Light "On cooldown" hue should be strong

[languid thicket]

Yeah, no disagreement there.

I don't think stylistically it pinged me - mostly because the updated HUD shares some of the same palette. But the deeper reasons make sense.

[dense swallow]

Can you share anything on season progression, events, approach on the content in the future and etc? For example, what are your thoughts on seasonal events, how often will ranked be reset, thoughts on valorant approach with episodes and acts, and league just having a season a year with multiple "sub" seasons. Any opinions tc would want from us there?

[languid thicket]

Sure! Was wondering if I should share a separate thing on this too.

I think Seasons are defined differently depending on what game you play.

The classical definition of MMR reset, big content updates, events.

For Seasons, we've charted out when MMR resets would happen, and rewards...

For content updates, want to make a new construct called Arcs. Idea is it'd be a set of updates, and related follow-up ones during the course of that Arc.

[brave heron]

which timeframes are we looking for here with arcs?

Like how often can we expect to get gameplay relevant updates?

[olive shore]

Hey there, hopping in for a couple mins before the custom character presentations, but wanted to say hi

[dense swallow]

Are you guys planning on doing full mmr resets? Or like "soft" resets?

[olive shore]

I like the name "arcs". Seems like it could lead to a lot of cool stuff

[languid thicket]

For Events, sometimes games make seasonal ones or their own. I think we'll probably want to explore both.

[languid thicket]

My humble contribution.

[tawdry fiber]

Wait, so we gunna get a tournament arc?

OR A CHIMERA ANT ARC????

[languid thicket]

We're looking at both at some cadence. Do you have preferences?

[olive shore]

Open beta'll be our training arc

[languid thicket]

You understand the vision!

[languid thicket]

Or not. WHY CHIMERA

Hahaha.

[tawdry fiber]

Cause it's the best arc

[dense swallow]

I like the idea of soft/medium resets. One worry i have with a full reset for example is the slug fest at the start of season where newer players or not as good players feel like they just get stomped until people are were they belong. I think it could be a turnoff for many people which leads to them not playing the game for a week or two until people have upped their mmr. If that makes sense

[languid thicket]

Netero vs. Mereum was admittedly very cool.

[languid thicket]

Yeah, for sure. It's a balance between that vs. feeling like you'll never catch up if you were out for a bit.

[brave heron]

Game island arc > chimera ant

I said it

[dense swallow]

A big fan of arc idea btw. I love having 1 year as 1 season. But mixing it up with multiple arcs a season sounds dope

[languid thicket]

Specific cadence notes I'll probably reserve for a proper update. 🙂 But am excited to share.

[olive shore]

I also like 1 year as 1 season. It never made sense to me when a game was out for only a couple of years but they were on, like, season 23 or whatever.

[brave heron]

Was worth a try i guess xD

[languid thicket]

I thought game island was sick.

Greed island? Yeah. They had a fun ruleset.

[brave heron]

Dude is severely addicted to video games so it really had the details

Greed island yee

sorry its been very long lmao

[hearty frigate]

Are we talking resets on mmr or rank or both? All a hard mmr reset does is give pro players 10 games to stomp new players, but a soft mmr reset does that to a much lesser extent. Not sure what use an mmr reset has, but a rank reset would only function to incentivize people to climb again assuming there is no intraseason rank decay, in which case if mmr stays constent high level players will face the same opponents since, correct me if im wrong, even when queueing ranked the game matches based on mmr and not ranked. Just my 2 cents

[languid thicket]

Yeah! This is the idea exactly.

[tawdry fiber]

Just as long as the Arcs dont drag on too long

[brave heron]

XD

the octopus bs was making me wanna pull my hair out, i watched the eps as they came out

[languid thicket]

You're the one who said you liked Chimera Ant!

[tawdry fiber]

Lol

[languid thicket]

Hahaha

[tawdry fiber]

I love it

I just think that staircase scene is so funny

[languid thicket]

It's pretty funny.

[bold urchin]

An extra point for polish
There should be a sound effect for clicking between the menu options https://i.imgur.com/7Eod3o7.png

a good satisfying click

[silent anchor]

I need more Frogs in the game please and thanks

[dense swallow]

Will we have player profiles that are public, so people can go into each others profiles and see stats, games etc?

[languid thicket]

Mm, have found hard resets are also nice for players who wanted to climb in higher tiers another shot to place - it gives them the same starting line as their peers. But agree; it's not a light lever to pull.

[languid thicket]

Love this - taking a note.

[languid thicket]

Ahh, yeah. We're doing a client SFX pass over time, so you'll start seeing some updates here.

[dense swallow]

Also note. You know showcasing mastery and banners etc on profil

And when will we be able to dm eachother when we are in lobby? So I can send message to my friends while they are in game and tell them they need to jump into the abyss so we can play together

[hearty frigate]

From a casuals perspective, i play apex with my brother in which we are midlevel to mediocre level players (stop climbing at plat / diamond). When this newest season rolled around my brother got excited at the prospect of everyone starting over on bronze iv but was still complaining every single game "omg these guys were preds last season why are we in their lobby" and now that it shows ranked distribution when starting the game "why are there gold ranked players in our lobby we've only been playing for a day?". But i personally dont mind getting stomped by better players since its inevitable no matter how the reset goes if mmr is how games are balanced. Just thoughts i guess

But even if that sounds discouraging apex is still the only videogame he plays so i guess it doesnt matter lol

[languid thicket]

Helpful! And yeah, depending where you are in the bands, different people will have different versions of climbing.

But this is great.

I do have to run - have some errands to do.

Will probably leave it at this and muse more on Ranked given I dropped some season notes.

Heading to G-Star soon, so will grab footage too. 🙂

[hearty frigate]

Thanks for stopping by as always!

[languid thicket]

Hahaha. Coming back to this. We have an approach we want to take that’ll take a bit longer. But I think you’ll like it.

[dense swallow]

[rough peak]

For this ive had the idea for overwatch where MMR was a big issue when it came to ranked. That for the top you do a hard reset and below you do a soft. So lets say everyone in legend, grandmaster and master get hard reset MMR and ranked down to bottom of Master and then everyone below those ranks get it soft. Usually there is a problem with smurfs, boosted accounts, cheaters etc that shouldnt be in the top rank that easily climbs back because MMR wasnt reset hard enough

Seen this in every game ive played

doesnt have to be the exact parameters i set, but fine tuning something like that could be a good answer depending on what issues is being seen

Also have ya'll made any thoughts on the infinite rank clilmb that BRs have?

[rugged matrix]

Something like Valorant's episodes or League's new way for splits next year?

I missed it today, but this week end was quite wild on my end lol

[cloud pewter]

I’m guessing this is kinda like seasons but renamed? Like maybe a 12 week period with a theme and updates throughout the season based on that with events going on?

I do hope there something to grind for the casual player which isn’t ranked, whether thahs a fun battle pass or weekly events with cool little rewards

[distant vault]

So just asking is there going to be talk today in here or do we stop doing these now that release is close?

[bold urchin]

I think they're quite busy

Let's give them some time to ship the game c:

[turbid vine]

Only 4 days is crazy

[silent anchor]

Lets go TC! You are awesome! You got this!

[languid thicket]

Morning!

Just landed from my flight. Team is definitely cooking.

I could definitely..use a nap. Hah.

[bold urchin]

Hiya safelocked

[bitter belfry]

hiya safelocked

[languid thicket]

Hi!

[bitter belfry]

I really did not mean to copy the message lmfao

[silent anchor]

Hi safelocked How was korea ? Are they as hyped as we are ?

[languid thicket]

Hello!!

[tawdry fiber]

Hi Safelocked

[bold urchin]

You're meant to say Hiya smh

:p

[bitter belfry]

gotta be honest, there was not nearly enough fire in your room for a Fireside Chat smh my head

[languid thicket]

There was hype for sure.

[tawdry fiber]

Oh

Sorry

Hiya Safelocked

[languid thicket]

First day I was there, lines got up to an hour and half to queue to play.

[unique agate]

hiii

[bold urchin]

That's exciting!

Did you guys play at all?

[languid thicket]

And that was during a weekday. Weekend’s going to be crazier.

[silent anchor]

Huge and they got some merch im a bit jealous tbh

[bold urchin]

Yeah for sure
I still really really want TC merch

[languid thicket]

No 💀 - but I didn’t want to cut in line with that kind of wait lol

[bold urchin]

Haha fair

[languid thicket]

Wanted to play so bad crying

[bold urchin]

Us too

[silent anchor]

soon

[languid thicket]

Same. I actually love what Nexon’s been cooking.

Want to take some inspiration.

[bold urchin]

Did you see they had gooby stickers????

So cute

[languid thicket]

I didn’t!

Omg

[silent anchor]

lmao i just realized

OTSU

[languid thicket]

Oh, I don’t even think I saw some of this!

The merch bags were huge, though.

Everyone was walking around with SUPERVIVE branding, heh.

[bold urchin]

Puppy told me she requests she gets sent some stickers haha

[languid thicket]

I’ll ask to see if we can get some, definitely.

Can unpack what I have to double-check, too.

Went straight into two press conferences, so didn’t get a chance to look at it all.

[bold urchin]

Oh wow o:

What kinda stuff were you asked?

[languid thicket]

Let’s see..

There was one for Japan and one for Korea.

In the Japan one, folks asked about release date, how we think about toxicity, where the idea of the game came from, what we were inspired by.

[unique agate]

oo

[bitter belfry]

Koreans go hard af

[languid thicket]

Definitely.

There were also players who played in earlier tests and wanted to just queue up more.

[tawdry fiber]

Super excited to see what merch we are gunna get

[bitter belfry]

The toxicity thing I'm interested in. I wonder if yall have a decided approach to it, bc there are so many examples of games where cracking down on toxicity in certain ways resulted in higher levels of toxicity overall. Or other side effects like absolutely no one using in game voice chat anymore in OW2.

[languid thicket]

Getting through customs, one sec!

[icy nimbus]

Def take a well deserved nap Jess! Happy to hear you got back safe and everything 🫡

[jaunty blaze]

yep! Make sure you get some rest, that's a lot of timezones to jump

[distant vault]

I despise timezones

[hearty frigate]

Woah Safelocked is here! How do you feel only days away from release? Stressed, excited, nervous? I bet you and your team is going crazy right now lol. Love all the work yall been putting into this game!

[silent anchor]

Earth being round kind of annoying frfr

[rugged matrix]

Heyo Jess!!

Yeah you need to take some rest

[languid thicket]

Alright, now I’m back. Out of the airport!

Freedom.

[jaunty blaze]

Welcome back c:

and happy birthday

[languid thicket]

Th-thanks 💀

[hearty frigate]

WOAH ITS SAFELOCKED BIRTHDAY AGAIN? Thats twice this month lets gooooo

[bitter belfry]

BIRTHDAY TIME LETS GOOOOO

[jaunty blaze]

Yea it's crazy

[languid thicket]

WAIT

[jaunty blaze]

AHAHA

[rugged matrix]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY

IT'S YOUR BIRTHDAY RIGHT?

[languid thicket]

LOL

crying hahaha

[hearty frigate]

🥳

[jaunty blaze]

[languid thicket]

❤️

[languid thicket]

All of the above!

[rugged matrix]

W Supervive

[jaunty blaze]

truly a W

can't wait to have supervive cons in other countries

eventually

That sounds like so much fun

[hearty frigate]

vivecon!

[jaunty blaze]

yeah!!

[silent anchor]

It's my mom's birthday LMAO I was really confused right now

[jaunty blaze]

LOL

[rugged matrix]

Btw I ask this because I don't know better, I won't have issues if I do a full Supervive typed font for the wiki, right? 👀

If Vivecon is organised in Paris or Lyon, I might do the trip there

[languid thicket]

We mainly talked about how we’ve been investing in anti-cheat, afk detection, player reporting from the start. The space is still so new for game companies too, that we’re just expecting to learn how we should adjust our approach once the game hits live.

[jaunty blaze]

I doubt it; I see no reason there'd be any issues as long as it's used for super-vive related content

[rugged matrix]

Good, I just need to actually do them and not just have an extra rough lying around

[distant vault]

The letters

What should we get for safelocked as a birthday gift

[rugged matrix]

If I knew I would have finished the font . . .

[jaunty blaze]

i forgot this was a sticker 💀

[rugged matrix]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/859865616000876564/1307059193114791979/image.png?ex=673995fb&is=6738447b&hm=e9549ba5a171a8ecab324108245ee907359356a8d30cf03d311c21de5578751f&

There was a more than genuine and happy smile there but I couldn't catch it

[hearty frigate]

100,000,000 concurrent players launch day of supervive!

[distant vault]

Ill buy the supporter pack

[languid thicket]

Jumped into a taxi and just saw all of this.

I think I’m about to pass out but before I do—

Love you guys.

Can’t wait to play with everyone, too.

[unique agate]

get some rest jess

[rugged matrix]

Yup

[bitter belfry]

Rest well! I can't wait either

[languid thicket]

And I definitely plan to keep doing these. 🙂 Makes even more sense when we go live.

[rugged matrix]

Based

[distant vault]

Yipee

[bitter belfry]

https://tenor.com/view/based-uh-hello-based-department-based-department-american-psycho-patrick-bateman-gif-22458382

[sand sail]

Have a good rest jess! excited for launch

[languid thicket]

We’ll go back to regular scheduled programming on talking about what’s in the game next week!

[rugged matrix]

Probably one of my best experience in game testing and thus far

[cloud pewter]

What role does Nexon play in Supervive Korea besides publishing the game, before I thought it was just allowing the game to be played but I’m guessing all the extra little things they’ve been getting such as certain emotes and stuff are implementing from nexus and not TC just giving them extra goodies?

Sorry if I explained poorly hopefully it’s understandable just curious if the extra Korean stuff is from nexon or TC giving them extra

[rugged matrix]

I commited, for the joke

[olive shore]

Holy

[pallid gull]

Looks so clean

[rugged matrix]

I'm exhausted... I'm done with the alphabet but holy did it take hours...

[pallid gull]

you're goated Nitpy

[worn rampart]

Hey!
Happy birthday.
And happy birthday to the Supervive too!

[brave heron]

Happy Birthday!

even tho im a bit late :D

[alpine matrix]

i mean break his shield and he's just a running puppy, the difficulty as Oath is to handle and absorb damages with it, if u fail at shield gestion u break it and u can't use 2 spell in the kit, also bugs on Rampage allow him to get fullstacked just spamming Shield 10 times, the Rampage nerf is a great thing to balance him and the change on the hammer throw too. For me base damages are too high and stats scaling should be the balance point

[brave heron]

Oh i know how to play against him its just not fun man

Every single fight i attend with an oath it doesnt matter what i pick i have to play his game and even if i do everything perfectly a tank character jumps on my teammates and oneshots them immediately without any risk is just dumb.
Either let him do that and let him die on the first mistake like every other character capable of doing what he does or just dont let him oneshot my teammates immediately

[alpine matrix]

Are you saying Oath can OS a whole team ?

[brave heron]

I didnt feel like this on the first few patches this was a thing

[alpine matrix]

I think as oath player if there's a felix we can't even handle a 1v1

[brave heron]

Youre in the bishop channel, i shit on oath im very well aware of that, but it doesnt matter if he just gets to kill one of my teammates with us not having anything we can do to turn the outcome of the fight from that point

You cant kill the oath in a reasonable amount of time, you cant save the wisp with oath on top of it and you cant try to go for a different target that has a half hp in one swing damage dealing oath between you

And he does all that while being tanky enough to handle all the burst in the game with the sole exception of joule who needs his shield to be downed to even play the game remotely

Oath is exodia right now

[alpine matrix]

from that statement how u think a dev can take seriously the point you're making if u say yourself being delussionnal on the hunter ?

[brave heron]

Theres a reason every team has him in showmatches and the teams that dont never come close to win

[brave heron]

What?????

I never said that

[alpine matrix]

i'm ok to say ther's no alternative, Oath is great at doin the "absober damages job"

Because he's the only one hunter with that concept of gameplay

[brave heron]

In fact i even said that being able to 1v1 him isnt even my issue 💀

the entire reason i wrote that message was to signify that

[alpine matrix]

hmm mb then if i misunderstood the statement

[brave heron]

no hes the absorber on top of being the tank, on top of being the wisp saver and also the wisp killer, on top of being the oneshot burst, on top of being area control

I dont hate if your character is an allrounder

[alpine matrix]

Shrike is a great response to him, shiv too, and felix too

match up i guess

[brave heron]

shiv yes, felix yes, shrike i feel like only will work against shit players tbh

ive seen oaths just shit all over shrikes all day i think its one sided but not on shrikes side

bishop is amazing vs him

[alpine matrix]

hmm the pressure Shrike can put on him with a bullet that can 3/4 the shield if u miss the timing to absorb the bullet

[alpine matrix]

yes, for now we can't even try the new changement correctly on the 3 hours EU playtest from the 11th

[alpine matrix]

Don't compare the skill issue, Shrike player just have to fire a bullet, oath have to correctly time their spells to absorb, so i don't really agree with what u sayin :c

[brave heron]

i think everyone here would agree shrike gets worse the better players get it just gets harder to hit when people dodge

bishop will remain amazing vs him

[languid thicket]

Morning!

I’m about to drive - going to grab some coffee and get set up.

May need..30? to set up the new thread.

[cloud pewter]

W

[rugged matrix]

W

[ember kettle]

W

[distant vault]

W

[languid thicket]

The coffee line is .. very long lol

[distant vault]

https://tenor.com/view/crowded-jam-packed-long-line-queue-waiting-in-line-gif-16769024

[tawdry fiber]

Uhhh

Did you take a wrong turn at Albuquerque?

[languid thicket]

In the meantime, here’s my G-Star bathroom selfie with Oath.

[distant vault]

Which bathrooms does oath use

[tawdry fiber]

That's awesome

[languid thicket]

This is me.

[tawdry fiber]

Questions Safelocked, how nice of a lunch should I go get?

[languid thicket]

I must know now…

[languid thicket]

Ooo. What are your options?

[tawdry fiber]

Either just some over roasted pizza, or, kinda feeling like treating myself

So like $90 lunch

[languid thicket]

As an enabler, I feel like this is a good week to eat well.

[tawdry fiber]

Normally I get Steak from this place, but I think I may mix it up

[languid thicket]

We need a food pic!

[tawdry fiber]

I will post it

Dont worry

[delicate maple]

Imma just have some gourmet Cinnamon Toast Crunch 😎

[languid thicket]

Yessss.

[languid thicket]

Goated cereal choice.

[rugged matrix]

Supervive team deverses croissants & pain au chocolat

[pliant coral]

Chocolate Pain