#What Makes Supervive Hunters Fun

371 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

brazen rune
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For your KP example, his dash also empowers his backstab passive and his backstab passive can empower his ult

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Well if you don't need your dash to hit your stun you can use it to dash behind them while they are stunned

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Or maybe not

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Could be just as effective to walk behind them I'm not sure

compact saffron
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You had it right there : they're pretty much similar to fighting game characters but top down-ified, like Battlerite but less flow-charty (as there is no counter to wrap the game around them) yet still a lot of complexity as to how moves can interact in different manners with the game

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Tho, speaking of Battlerite and versus fighters, makes me think of Granblue Fantasy Versus too and I'd be curious to see what would happen if Supervive had move weight modifiers that would deepen the kit effects. GBVS is my favourite fighter kit wise, and some characters really do have some incredible depth that is also not tiring to take into account or even learn, it just makes sense

torpid granite
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Damn. I need this discussion, because I have a quite opposite experience.

I characters kits are definitely not deep and thematically cool, and even I mixed with the fun part.

About the depth in kits (especially you even point out that they have more depth than LoL characters!?).
In Supervive, the abilities are disjointed. There are no combos nor abilities combinations for cool plays. The longest string of abilities are KP hook->stun->ult. Which is basically the Blitzcrank (League of Legends) basic string. Even Blitzcrank can do it in other order to get different effect - like first ult for siliance if character has some blink/dash abilities, then stun/knockup - go back - and then grab.
Which is impossible for KP as grab travel too slow to make stun, dash back, grab (KP players can correct me if I am not right).

The Gragas from 2010 LoL character has more combo than other Supervive characters. For example, displacing enemies with R into a barrel he threw earlier, which deals more damage based on how long it's been on the ground.

And this doesn't even compare to the crazy combos of Zed or Lee Sin.
Or something like Ornn's Q -> R -> W -> AA -> R -> AA -> E combo.
Even basic connections, like Lulu's Pix. Or Taric's W, which after casting is cast point of his ALL other abilities.

No. The Supervive kits are not deep or complicated.

torpid granite
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And regarding the thematics.
In Supervive, there are some characters that connect their abilities to their theme, like KP with his grab and shotgun.

But then there are the basic ones like Soldier, Ice-mage, Electric-mage, and Guy with Big Sword, which are as basic as you can get. No twists or interesting themes.

For disjointed thematic take Elluna, for example. I'm not sure why she has a backpack ability without having a backpack. There's some Sun burn theme in her skills, but the only Moon element is in her design. I like her, but her theme isn't connected to her skills.

(Not all are bad/basic/disconnected designs though):
Myth is a bowwoman, and you can see some ghost elements in her design. She has the ability to go through walls, which is good.

There's Oath. A robot paladin controlled by a small wisp. Super unique idea.

compact saffron
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PLAY GBVSR, there's a free demo and you should see for yourself that weight modifier thingy

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They thematically fit and have some depth for a first batch, Rome wasn't built in a single day

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Do I vibe with a character to the point of maining it? Nah, definitely not. Do I still find characters appealing and serviceable? Yes, without a doubt

compact saffron
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Complexity is analogous to depth, so here's that. It's mostly just how many ramifications something has in an entire system, which is what you described with KP

compact saffron
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Hwei I'd wager is more complicated than complex. You can have many different moving parts, but it doesn't mean it out-complexes a way simpler system that has many ramifications

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The nuance between being complicated and being complex, essentially

jolly canyon
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Supervive hunter matchups are very flowchart based since most hunters only have a single defensive cooldown, being their dash

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On top of this it's less about interacting with your opponent's hunter and more about pressing your buttons in a specific order

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The lack of interaction makes a lot of sense with their combat inspiration. It's less about player A does something and player B responds and more about both player A and B doing their actions at the same time

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This leads to combat that is heavily based on forcing a defensive cooldown and then immediately pushing your buttons in the single way your character can.

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It's rather shallow combat. Almost all of the depth in combat comes from powers and not hunter kits. Even the "difficult" characters are not difficult due to their kit complexity and are difficult for being melee heroes that are very disadvantaged in the gameplay loop.

compact saffron
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That's not how it felt to me, but I can get that train of thoughts as well

jolly canyon
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As an aside, it feels extremely frustrating when characters have vastly different levels of power in their kit when compared to hunters in similar roles. It makes it so only specific hunters are viable which is frustrating to feel forced to play something to win.

compact saffron
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Some characters I played felt one note (like Joule), that I can't deny, but I was surprised by characters like Oath which felt like I had a wide array of tools and use cases to do stuff with. KP felt that way too, but I'm not sure if it's due to unbalance, kit creativity or whatnot for some characters

jolly canyon
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I think you will get there. It's a feeling that develops the more you engage with the combat system. I liked it a lot at first but after putting in a lot of time and finding out there really aren't meaningfully different ways to express matchup knowledge beyond binary choices the game feels really shallow and empty. I still think movement and aiming are the game's strengths but I do not count hunter design among the game's strengths just due to how they interact with each other

compact saffron
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I for sure would say, as a general one, mana as in resource management and itemisation don't play a good role in hunter encounters, it doesn't birth creativity in matchups

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Which then devolves to matchups being mostly kit related, and kits showing potential pitfalls you might mention

jolly canyon
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I'm not sure there are any specific pitfalls that I can reference without going in depth on cooldown trades and resource management.

#brall message

I wrote this up for a look at the Brall / Ghost matchup. I think Ghost is one of the better designed heroes because even though he has a clear direction for damage, most of his abilities have several uses and competing options for use. Even with the choices in his kit he still cannot ever beat Brall. While this is sort of a fake example because Brall wins every single matchup, I do think it sort of illustrates the point well. I think most characters are not close to ghost in how many different ways they can use their abilities to get value

heady lark
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I think having abilities with multiple use cases breeds creativity. Like i find voids teleport for example to be a very funny ability to use. It has so many interactions to it. You can use it for defense for offense. To save a teamate. To reposition.

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Also I think the most important thing to have a fun character to play is for them to fullfill a gameplay fantasy

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I dont think having a "shallow" kit is that bad if the kit fullfills the gameplay fantasy

brazen rune
# jolly canyon It's rather shallow combat. Almost all of the depth in combat comes from powers ...

Personally I think a significant amount of the depth comes from the variety of scenarios that BR puts you in. I think the chance of being third partied, playing for space vs playing for kills, trying to steal soul buffs, trying to secure kills for levels, third partying enemies yourself can change a lot about how hunters can and do engage in combat. Then you also have environmental things like the abyss that can completely change the basic flowchart, for example I can actually have a solid chance to 1v1 a Brall as Elluna if I'm able to play abyss.

I'd agree with most of this if we were talking about Arena, but I think you might be undervaluing the situational variety, I feel like it adds just as much to combat as powers. I'm sure there's still characters who can't engage as much with that variety, but a lot definitely can. As an example KP hook is 10x more interesting of an ability in BR compared to Arena because it interacts with so many of them in different ways. I know I've seen a variety of fights that've been made 10x more interesting just because of the unique situation, and I'm hoping this "strategy" patch expands on that and makes it a little more common since it definitely seems to be something I see to a greater extent in the showmatches & custom games rather than the normal matches, I think the looser match making ends up meaning you miss out on a lot of this.

tight dirge
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hunters in vive are pretty much very linear in how they play

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some hunters may be flexible, but they still only have 1 gameplan though

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neither is it possible, to play hunters in a different way with a "different build"

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because itemisation in this game is nonexistent and uninspired to the max

heady lark
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Only one i think kinda can do that is oath

tight dirge
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only powers, are effectively giving depth to combat in this game

brazen rune
deep crane
tight dirge
tight dirge
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arena has 0 depth @deep crane

deep crane
tight dirge
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not feeling like editing all my messages

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lmao

heady lark
tight dirge
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thats what makes mobas have 10k hours potential, because they offer variety in many ways and foster a variety of playstyles and player types

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vive only supports and fosters a very limited demographic of players

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even games like valorant/apex have more depth than vive, despite not having "items" per se

heady lark
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Thresh again for an example. He has like 4 main line builds he can go. With a lot of variation.

1 standard tank/support

2 ap bruiser/brust mage

3 ad oneshotter

4 on hit attacker

All of these are enabled because his E has a funny text that says 300% ad scaling

tight dirge
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but they have weapons a 3d plane of existence and other variables

heady lark
tight dirge
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yeah, more like powers when comparing to vive in terms of how they affect gameplay

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but i can shoot my r99 in apex 90% of the game and defines my effective range, engagement and gameplan

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vive powers, i can use x amount of times in a match and they only shape specific situations

heady lark
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I would like if for example kingpin had a few random hp scalings on his abilities that allowed for a tankier build

tight dirge
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wouldn't change much cause his playstyle would still be the same

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just better/worse, whichever is stronger

heady lark
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Yeah I guess.

tight dirge
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thresh's ad build allows him to kill turrets extremely fast

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something support thresh or onhit cannot, just a very simple comparison

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that changes how u play him + you farm more when u play carry thresh compared to supp thresh as well

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me playing phantom or vandal in valorant, changes my gameplan drastically

compact saffron
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Power breeds variety but also the way to get them, get to know them and effectively learn to use them isn't really intuitive, so players might step over them and find the game bland

tight dirge
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me having quickblade or manablade, doesnt matter shit

heady lark
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Yeah

tight dirge
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this game is as wide as the ocean and as shallow as a puddle

heady lark
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Only one I think the items matter on is oath cus his full charge swing deals massive dmg if you build dmg items

tight dirge
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fun fact oath does more dps just throwing hammer

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his charge swing is a noobtrap

heady lark
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Yeah I know. But full swing is funny

tight dirge
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and only to be used if you want to smack someone into a wall

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but, that could change with different scalings for example

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ap = hammer throw, hp = hammer swing

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and change how he plays drastically :)

heady lark
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:)

deep crane
tight dirge
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well that still ultimately doesnt matter, because effectively you only have 1 item left to choose from

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limting your options even further

deep crane
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That's part of my point.

tight dirge
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yes i agree

compact saffron
tight dirge
deep crane
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I don't want to turn this into a mana discussion, since we've had plenty of those and this also isn't a mana discussion, but hunters are not created equally in regards to mana consumption and limits that already limited player agency in regards to builds on specific hunters.

compact saffron
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Yes

deep crane
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I enjoyed Zeph's gameplay, but I did not enjoy having 0 choice in what I build on him.

compact saffron
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And other stats don't translate particularly well into gameplay

deep crane
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I no longer play Zeph because I have too little agency on him for my taste, even though his kit gives agency.

tight dirge
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fact that some mobile game br games have more combat depth, character and itemisation depth

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is actually ironic and sad

heady lark
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Kinda side tracking on the main point of the discussion

compact saffron
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TBF it doesn't need to have that deep of an item system, but if it's that shallow it begs question of its existence

tight dirge
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cause, characters aren't really versatile enough to have enough depth to allow for creative plays

heady lark
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One of my favorite things I did on void was to drop and E and then put tele on in it. And just walked ontop of a brall that came too close and we teleported into the E

tight dirge
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there are some who have flexible abilities

deep crane
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Void is the exception in multiple regards.

tight dirge
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yes

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thresh like characters largely don't exist in this game, where 1 or multiple abilities can be used in different ways

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offensively, defensively, utility, etc

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a character like joule, pretty much only does fish for E, lmb spam and shift whenever stacks are up

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even a character like zed, has more depth in assassinating, than joule does

tight dirge
compact saffron
tight dirge
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we have jumping in vive

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yet we dont have jumping attacks, we have dashes, but no dash attacks

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characters are as linear as they can be

compact saffron
tight dirge
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there's effectively only 2 characters who have kit depth

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and that would be void and brall, brall only, beacuse he has more options (and abilities) than anyone else, really

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and void isn't really that crazy deep either

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its just his shift tbh

heady lark
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That would be fine imo if we had other things to interact with said character kits.

tight dirge
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yes, but, sometimes we gotta isolate the issue

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because itemisation perhaps wont change

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irregardless of how long we cry about it

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and thread is about hunters, not items

heady lark
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Yeah

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I like kingpin because hook slam ult is funny

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So have we come to conclusions on the main topic yet.

tight dirge
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hunter kits are too linear, not deep enough because abilities do not allow or foster creativity

compact saffron
tight dirge
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not enough utility to actually make interaction with allies/enemies engaging

compact saffron
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You need firm and established rules to fully embrace depth and break them in engaging ways, pretty sure we'll get crazy deep hunters down the line and what we have now will be the Garen, Ashe and Master Yi of Vive

tight dirge
deep crane
heady lark
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Supervive will get its K'santes

deep crane
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A lack of depth in pre-alpha is one thing. I'm not saying it's to be expected, since you absolutely can have depth in a pre-alpha state, but it's understandable if things are simpler while the game as a whole is being fleshed out.

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The problem is that the amount of depth has not particularly changed since pre-alpha.

tight dirge
deep crane
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The amount of depth has not particularly changed since early 2023, when I started playing.

tight dirge
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exactly

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some of the feedback that are currently surfacing, as big issues, have been shutdown a year ago by other playtesters

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which is also a bit ironic

compact saffron
deep crane
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Despite the many mechanical changes to basically every hunter kit in the game, there has basically never been a significant depth add across the board.
Felix is possibly the only exception, since his kit received a near total rework that made him a functioning character.

tight dirge
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🤣

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even lost more depth after the mini rework/adjustments/nerfs

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he just an ult bot now that soaks dmg and applies anti heal

jolly canyon
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Poor Felix...

deep crane
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Basically everyone else still has about has much depth as they did in early 2023.

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Barring Brall, since he's gotten more reworks since then than I can count and has managed to accumulate more mechanics than I care to count.

tight dirge
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tc definitely missed the b(r)all naming this game superbrall

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or supersmashbralls

heady lark
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I keep comparing to league because I have a lot of experience in that. Also paladins and overwatch and a little Gigantic

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To me the most fun way to play kingpin is to max E and just play very very stealthy and flank enemy teams

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I didnt like hook maxing that much

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Its a little hard to artiqulate what in particular I found fun about Kingpin other then "Slam Ult combo. fun"

heady lark
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I like his simplicity. He has a clear thing he wants to do and everyone else knows what he wants to do. Its just about how you do it

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Do you stick with your team and hook max. Do you hang back and try and correct your teams mistakes and bad positioning by pulling them back

Or

Do you go rogue and start being a real nuissance by constantly flanking and trying to disrupt fights

Also his simplicity helped me understand stuff about the game and mechanics

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Like I love those vision giving grenades

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And the spie owls power

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For me he was flexible enough to work in a few different ways and that made him fun to me

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But I dont think the game has a gameplay fantasy I really vibe with just yet

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Cus I love having the tracker/intel/scout gameplay fantasy

jolly canyon
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I think the problem with that is when Kingpin is played in higher level play he effectively becomes worthless. Nearly every character can beat him 1v1 unless he gets a surprise slam. His hook doesn't force defensive cooldowns against skilled players because they can WASD it reliably. His dash - slam can be reacted to by most skiled players.

Ultimately the character only has two options for winning an engagement. Land a hook or land a slam. Both of these are telegraphed in such a way that they result in him having no way to interact with higher skilled opponents.

heady lark
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One time we managed an amazing ambus because I had the funny owls

heady lark
jolly canyon
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I think simple kits like Kingpin are important for learning the game but I really think they need to be able to win engagements without your opponents horribly misplaying because the inverse of that is you cannot play these characters in higher game knowledge games. While that might be isolated to 200 or so players right now as the game grows MORE people will meet the minimum bar to make playing Kingpin feel like playing a secondary character not less

heady lark
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Honestly that is one of the reasons I enjoyed him. He felt pretty fair to play cus when I lost I know I got outskilled

jolly canyon
heady lark
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I love playing dogshit characters

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I just love being outclassed by everyone and everything and managing to still win

heady lark
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And her having longer range and very long dashes

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Depends on how big the area of abyss is

jolly canyon
# brazen rune Personally I think a significant amount of the depth comes from the variety of s...

See, those are factors surrounding combat. I do not think they add depth to the specific micro decisions you make during the actual combat for the vast majority of characters. Most are not going to be pressing their abilities in different ways. Your kill combo is your kill combo through and through.

Those do add depth to where you fight and I do agree that is why it doesn't feel as shallow as it should with the current depth of combat.

heady lark
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Hot take but I dont think this game needs a lot of insanely deep and complex kits if the gameplay fantasies are met properly

deep crane
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I would argue that it won't be able to meet gameplay fantasies without having depth.

heady lark
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The more hunters that are added the more complex the fights would get and it would be kinda annoying to fight when you have like 3 enemies who have insane amounts of tools at their disposal

deep crane
heady lark
deep crane
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Simple designs =/= shallow designs

heady lark
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Im just a fan of simple characters with strong gameplay fantasies

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You have a guy who wants to grab you and bash your skull in? Thats good

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Not saying complex characters are bad tho

deep crane
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Having those characters is fine. Having that be your entire roster is less fine.

heady lark
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Yeah I guess but that can be fixed

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Adding more and reworking some

deep crane
heady lark
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Maybe its just not the focus yet. I am quite new to this game after all

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Not 100% sure on everything thats happening and has happened

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So far my experience with this game has been super positive

deep crane
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I imagine they're working on it, but IMO there hasn't really been anything that reinforces the idea that they are.

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The whole topic of depth, or the lack thereof, pops up relatively regularly. Same discussion happens every time. Has for as long as I've been playing and I suspect it's been discussed before I showed up.

compact saffron
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You can have something simple but complex too, those aren't antithesis

heady lark
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Im wondering if having loadouts choices like in gigantic or heroes of the strom could help add depth

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And to make a character feel more personal

deep crane
compact saffron
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Supervive used to have EXs too no?

heady lark
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I was wondering if that is the case

deep crane
heady lark
compact saffron
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Alternative versions of abilities

deep crane
heady lark
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Just so used to leagues "complex champs" being super over loaded and still having weirdly one note combos

compact saffron
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And how did they work gameplay wise? Did they add much?

deep crane
compact saffron
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Hwei & Aphelios are more complicated than complex

deep crane
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I don't remember what any of the other talents did, but they were neat.

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They got axed due being a lot of work or something like that and we were just left with perks, which were stat picks at specific levels and other levels would let you get wacky things that are currently only available as enchantments, which may as well not exist with how rare they are.

compact saffron
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If that was already done, I'd like to see them (ye ye ik I said it thrice already here) weight modifiers like in Granblue Fantasy Versus Rising

heady lark
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I think enchants should be more common. I played for over 12 hours and managed to get 1 at the last circle and I dont even remember what it did

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Didnt honestly even remember them being a thing

deep crane
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You used to be able to enchant gear yourself through a former mechanic called the Forge.

compact saffron
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I barely saw them thus far, I second the "may as well not exist" sentiment because currently they feel like bloat that don't serve much of a purpose and screws clarity

deep crane
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All of those circular metal rooms with runes on the floor? The Forge would be at one of them.
IIRC could pay gold to upgrade gear (and armor?) and could spend power shards (?) to enchant gear.
Was neat.

compact saffron
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And I barely could play waaay before recent playtests due to real life and timezone, so can't say I remember the Forge & all

deep crane
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I've been advocating for the return of talents for...forever, basically.

heady lark
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I think wacky effect on enchants would be a decent way to add depth to stuff. Like have it be a choise for 3 random ones that have wild effects like "your primary hits bounce for reduced dmg" or "deal more dmg but as a bleed" . Maybe a little bit of a hot take

deep crane
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Forge returning would be nice, especially if enchantments get an overhaul to not be 50% gimmicks.

heady lark
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Would make you play differently

deep crane
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Problem with the Forge is that the enchantment you got from it was completely random.

heady lark
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I think a choice of 3 options would be good

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Wacky stuff like "your primary now deals dmg based on hp". Now oath is an absolute menace

compact saffron
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Tbf if Forges were rolled with a set of random enchants at the start of the game (and you could watch it before dropping) and enchants would go on boots only, I'd say it'd be good

deep crane
compact saffron
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Ye I heard that already

heady lark
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That sounds like itd be fun

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Soft padded shoes make you make less noise

compact saffron
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But imo different boots = different enchants

deep crane
compact saffron
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Lmao

heady lark
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I have no idea what the enchants do

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Is there a list of them anywhere?

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Wiki?

compact saffron
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I saw like 3 enchants

heady lark
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Ive seen 1 and dont even remember

deep crane
heady lark
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Yes

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I would love to have a trapper character or a tracker character who excells at ambushing teams

deep crane
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All this talk of old mechanics that used to exist to say that IMO they've had a lot of cool stuff that probably could've added a lot of player agency (like talents) if it hadn't gotten completely removed and had instead gotten changes.

compact saffron
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Oh ye I forgor the trap in the sentence

deep crane
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Beebo had landmines, but they weren't exactly compelling gameplay to play against.

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Beebo also had other problems, largely on account of being a Freaky Week creation.

heady lark
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Whats that

deep crane
compact saffron
heady lark
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Ooh that sounds funny

deep crane
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IIRC gliders are the result of a freaky week from way before I started playing

compact saffron
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Yep

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That I recall

deep crane
heady lark
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This game has like so much potential its hurting my head

compact saffron
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Btw, Joule's mana refund and other mechanics alike are pretty recent right?

deep crane
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Joule has had so many minor tweaks and reworks and such at this point, idk.

compact saffron
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I can't say for sure as I barely followed the details up until now. I had huge faith in the game so that's why, but now I'm playing I'm seeing cracks that shouldn't really be there

deep crane
heady lark
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:(

compact saffron
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I'm still positive, far from the worse I witnessed

deep crane
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To the original topic, for me, it's the same things that makes any kind of PvP game fun: choices / options / player agency.
Void (shift) gives me options. I have all the options, even the bad ones.
My options outside of actual abilities are greatly limited, but...eh.

compact saffron
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At least Supervive didn't turn into a... just a shooter riddled with lootboxes

compact saffron
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Oat is my best friend here now

deep crane
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I played Bard in League so much because of all the wacky shit I could do on him.
Basically any item worked on him. Basically any rune worked on him. I could build whatever I was feeling and it would kinda maybe work, and even if it didn't, it'd probably be funny.

I played Glasc (until I uninstalled the game lol) for the same reason, because there's a bunch of wacky things I can do. Sure, Aery is a good and safe rune choice but have you considered Press The Attack on Glasc? I ran that more often than I probably should have.
It might not have been super good, but it worked well enough to not be troll. More importantly, it was a fun choice that I could actually make.

I don't get that here. I get none of the choice, none of the Funny, none of the dumb. My "choice" is what 2 powers I want and whether I want to have to engage with mana as a mechanic.

heady lark
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Thsts why I play Udyr

compact saffron
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When Ardent meta happened, I switched from playing Bard supp to playing... AD crit Bard top for months

compact saffron
heady lark
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I want a hunter to fill a gameplay fantasy and to have nuanced abilities that dont just exists in a vacuum by themselves and instead have interactions with the rest of the kit and other aspects of the game

compact saffron
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Couldn't say it better or more concise

heady lark
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Im blushing rn Oath_blush

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Pretty much that

deep crane
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Doesn't need powers to feel complete.

heady lark
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Powers should complement them not complete them

deep crane
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Benefiting from specific powers is one thing.

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Needing specific powers to feel like a complete character is different.

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Void to some extent, but largely because the rest of the cast does not have the same lacking mobility.

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Void has less mobility as a designed weakness, sure, but IMO it kinda makes him feel like an incomplete character at times when looking at how everyone else gets to zoom around.

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I guess it's more of a thing of "I don't want hunters to be designed with the assumption that certain power(s) will always be present".

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I'm not saying balance them to where everyone benefits equally.

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I'm saying don't build a weakness into a kit under the pretense that a given set of powers will always be there to patch that weakness.
I.E. Void benefits from movement powers because his mobility is lacking, but this gets awkward if they decide to outright remove some of those powers for whatever reason.

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Also, it means that character suffers to some extent in modes without powers (Arena).

heady lark
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I dont quite agree with that. I think its fine to have clear cut weaknesses. I find it fun to try and work around said weaknesses

deep crane
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Clear cut weaknesses are fine as long as the kit still feels complete.

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My issue isn't with having weaknesses inherent to a design/mechanic/etc.

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It's "don't put those weaknesses in there just because there's something in the game right now that fills the gap".
If there's going to be a weakness, make it make sense for it to be there.

heady lark
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Thats what Im trying to wrap my head around

deep crane
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There've been suggestions in #void about giving him a spot dodge while his TP is on CD, buffing his movespeed overall, his swap giving him movespeed while it's active, etc.

heady lark
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Ok I see what you mean

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The movement speed thing I can kinda see

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Does his empower mode give him ms?

deep crane
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No.

heady lark
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Maybe that could do it

deep crane
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No one's advocating for removing his TP.

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I must not be explaining my stance clearly if that's your takeaway.

heady lark
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You mean compensation for the lack of defensive dash?

deep crane
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I guess?
It makes sense for big damage burst mages with lots of damage to be slow and immobile, but they still need a complete toolkit to interact with the game, whether everyone else in the game is significantly more mobile or just as immobile.

heady lark
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Like a slight band aid fix so he isnt quite as fragile. Keeping his cool unique factor while still keeping the inherent weakness

deep crane
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And my point is that it's OK if he benefits more from mobility powers due to being less mobile, so long as his kit is actually complete without having those powers.

heady lark
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Honestly him getting ms during the tp would be cool imo cus the extra ms allows for more plays to happen during the tp animation

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Like if he gets ms during it then he could intentionally run into a teamate to save them or even kidnap an enemy by being faster then them

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Everyone else does have a dash tho

deep crane
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That specific suggestion has never been tested in actual playtests. Maybe the devs have tested it internally but I have no way of knowing that.

heady lark
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It could. But its a power move when the fucking void rushes you and kidnaps you

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Can void tp his E?

deep crane
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No, but he can TP people into his E.

heady lark
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Ok what if putting the tp right in the middle of the E would make you switch places with the E

deep crane
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Which is part of why I like him, since the option of dropping E at my feet or at where I want to swap to are both valid and effective options for zoning people away from me if I need to escape.

heady lark
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Fair

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It would be kinda funny if he could also tp his E arojnd and if his tele gave ms he could jump next to an enemy and drop it there

deep crane
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Got bored of Ghost and Zeph when I played them last year since they didn't feel like they had the same amount of options.

heady lark
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Just as an weird optional play

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What yall think of celeste ice wall tho

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I dont think a weakness should be so severe it cripples a character

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I personally didnt mind void being immobile but I can see why it can be annoying. Giving him a built in way to slightly counter act that is fine imo (increased movement speed during empower for example)

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For kingpin if someone like brall gets close he kinda just looses cus his primary gets out damaged. It feels a little bad and its hard to get the slam or hook on brall cus he is so mobile. But at the same time when you do hit him you kinda oneshot him

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Yeah. I think kingpin should be a short range menace and should be able to duel at close range with primary dmg

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His lack of range should be his biggest weakness

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He is a little too reliant on E and I think some power from it could be shifted into the primary

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Just a tiny nitpick

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I sadly dont have enough hours on other characters to have an idea of what makes them fun. Ive primarily played kingpin, void and some oath

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Yes

compact saffron
heady lark
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Fair

compact saffron
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  • Bonus point : weaknesses that are actually an advantage. Tho, that's hard to pull off (case by case basis) and hard to wrap head around
heady lark
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Then giving him a movement speed buff would maybe eliviate the weakness making it so he isnt as reliant on mobility powers and would open up more diverse builds

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Does that make sense?

compact saffron
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Yup, exactly where I was going

heady lark
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Also the ms would increse his play making potential

brazen rune
compact saffron
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You still have a weakness, but alleviating it gives less than currently and costs technically more (as you gain less + you have a tool that already holds the spot where you could opt for another tool)

heady lark
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Makes sense

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Well I did play some elluna too and I found her fun because of how simple she was

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Also she was an absolute fucking rat hunter that just runs away at any given possibility

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Elluna players arent hunters those are damn runners

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She is kind of like an ensurance for your team. Heals some and has some cc. And some dmg. Revive bot

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I did enjoy just picking very supportive items and powers

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Spike walls. Zone grenades, vision grenades

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Spie owls the mortar power

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I liked how I was able to fully focus on the item and power aspect of supervive with her

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And being usefull to my team through other means then just oneshotting someone

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I was always trying to flank so I took stealh powers and items

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Then id have a lag spike and int my ass off

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Its late for me

compact saffron
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Play GBVSR's demo tomorrow too 👀

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OG doesn't feature what I'm pointing out as much

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Weight modifier was on some things but not all

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On Rising every character has 4 versions of their 4 skills, which seems a lot, but since it's weight based you expect what happens

heady lark
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Are they like heavy or something if they are weight based

compact saffron
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Exactly

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Light makes it faster, reduce CD, but hit for less
Heavy makes it bigger, hit way harder, slower and increases CD
To put it simply

celest willow
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My personal favorite hunter is shiv. I tend to choose a character to hardcore main in all games (otp riven in leauge and raze main in valo). Playing the same character, without getting bored of it, requires a high skillcealing with high outplay potential and it has to be mechanically challenging. Shiv is just that, hit all your shift shots and you blow someone up while dodgeing all of their abilitis, but miss or get hit and you get punished for it.

compact saffron
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But it can be more complex than just speed, like altering some properties like on this bomb

image.png
heady lark
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Not sure how weight would work in supervive but I can vibe with the idea

compact saffron
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You can... vive with the idea you mean?

compact saffron
# heady lark Not sure how weight would work in supervive but I can vibe with the idea

Welp, could be things like...
KP's Heavy dash makes him jump too and when he lands he blasts the ground, Light dash would be small but near instant giving him a slight fading move speed buff
Shiv's Heavy Phantom Dagger could travel at exponential speed, deal damage on distance traveled but no cooldown reduction, and Light would be just faster travel speed but you instantly tp when it hits something
Joule's Heavy Lightning Spear could instead pull nearby enemies to the pinned target if it has full stack, dealing an increasing stun for every enemies pulled together. Light Lightning Spear could just slow the target instead and make your next basic hit on the target fully stack them
Those are random bs, but you get the gist

heady lark
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I mean input wise

compact saffron
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Oh, put heavy on sneak and light... I dunno tbf

heady lark
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Getting myself bionic extra fingers to play brall properly

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Doesnt brall technically have weight mechanic

compact saffron
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You sure about the "every fighting game" part? I played a couple of them and the weight I'm describing here with all its implications I've only seen in Rising as a fully fledged out mechanic

jolly canyon
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Supervive' strengths are their movement and aiming. The only character that really feels cohesive and creative (well, at least for supervive) is ghost IMO.

tight dirge
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tho his gunplay and dash do fit supervive well, but i believe myth and shiv also fit in that category, all 3 have aim and movement gameplay that feels cohesive and intuitive - similar to how apex gunplay and movement feel good together

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but that's kinda vive's core strength, movement and aim, that's where it's good at but fall short in the other areas

heady lark
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Id say the primary needs to feel satisfying to use and not feel awkward so to say

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Id say most of the primaries in this game feel quite good to use

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Maybe the only one that felt a little weird to use/unintuitive was oaths primary

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Considering spamming it deals more dmg then charging