#Is "frontlining" really a thing in Supervive?

47 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

fair orchid
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Frontlining is a common role in lower TTK games like LoL and Overwatch, but I haven't been able to find a well defined description of what it actually is and it probably varies a bit from game to game. To me, a frontline character is one that control space with forward positioning, and are typically high durability, tank characters who aren't afraid to take a couple punches to force enemies to take a step back to let their team step forward. I would think of characters like Reinhardt from OW or Sion from LoL as some good examples.

I haven't felt that I've really been able to identify this type of gameplay in Supervive tho. The low TTK means that everyone is afraid of taking punches, so the kind of forward positioning that I'm think of, the kind that puts the "front" in frontline, means you'd get chunked by free LMBs before you accomplish anything, and you don't really need anyone to tank things in more neutral positions, because you can WASD to dodge long range abilities reliably enough.

I'm sure Oath probably fits my interpretation of a frontliner to some extent, but I don't understand how to play/position on him and I've hard inted the few times I've tried him. It doesn't really feel like I'm able to frontline with him in the sense that I think of frontlining, but that could easily just be a skill issue on my part. He just doesn't seem to make sense with how I think about or approach the game, so he's super unintuitive for me.

The next closest character that I feel like I do understand would be Brall, but the way in which I feel Brall enables his team to take and control space is by diving or threatening dives. "Diving" feels like it works because it forces actual resources out of the enemy, and Brall does this well because he has a lot of control over how hard he wants to commit when he jumps in. If I'm playing for space I'll jump in and "fake" a commit to try and pull enemy attention and trade CDs, allowing my team to take space and if I didn't int, be on fairly equal footing once I disengage.

I'm sure y'all have different interpretations of what "frontlining" means, and different ways of thinking about the game, which I'd be curious to hear about Elluna_noted

gaunt patrol
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IMO the "frontline" in the game is just ranged characters poking and trading. while melees go tree to rock to wall for gap closing and then fish for CC/Execute.

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also oath is a ranged character. more of a ranged character than shiv

ashen bramble
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From someone who's been coaching league at Amateur Semi-pro level - in Supervive - for having played 24h/7 during the last playtest, mainly playing KP - which I first tough fitted my perspective of a ''front line champion'' i've come to the conclusion :

  1. Character generally pretty much have similar HP pool and will be capable of outputting about the same amount of damage if they land their combo right - it doesnt matter if somoeone has 200 HP or 210 (i dont have the exact number) you will get one shotted either way. I find that you get punished really easily if you do a mistake or greed.

  2. everyone has so much mobility in their kit that there isn't really a need for a ''front line'' in the pure form of a big chungus tank

so to me you kinda have 3 in the game (we coul argue for 4?) :

Carries : Generally High DPS / Poke - high capacity to trade (I would put Shrike in that category)

Initiator : Have lot of gap closing ability - CC & mobility so they can create space or opening for the carry (IE - Brall)

Controller : Honestly similar to initiator in the sense that they can create space or provide utility to their squad - but they just lack a bit of gap closing ability.

pulsar oracle
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The concept of front lining is to secure space. In league the tankier more durable characters are primarily responsible for this. In supervive it is up to the ranged characters to secure space with LMBs primarily but can threaten non commital short cooldown spells that will not misuse resources

fair orchid
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Didn't expect to be learning about fencing lol

fair orchid
little condor
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Generally for me, frontlining is the first point of contract, it can vary from comp to comp, but imo like most have said the frontlining comes from lmbs. I do still consider oath a Frontliner, not necessarily because he is the one engaging but generally because he is the first person to be engaged in a teamfight

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Ay least as a shrike player, unless enemies are out of position, the oath shield is what I'm focusing

fair orchid
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I would maybe restrict it to being the first person the enemy can interact with, to exclude poke characters in most situations, since those aren't traditionally considered to be frontline. Otherwise that sounds like a really good way to define it, still has utility as a term and makes more sense in the context of Supervive than mine.

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Makes sense for other games as well, and still works for what I would think of as frontline in other games.

fair orchid
little condor
# fair orchid Also wouldn't it be arguable that the Oath is then out of position if he's allow...

Not necessarily. Not being able to be shot doesn't mean enemies are so far away that the oath is out of position. They could be behind cover so I can't shoot them or about to come on the flank. They could also be standing right behind him shooting at my team themselves but he would still be first point of contract and buying his team time to get into position to collapse on us or make a play

pulsar oracle
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Ranged characters are primarily responsible for taking space because they have the largest threat range with which to threaten space. Melee characters have a very small threat range and therefore cannot take space as they are relatively unthreatening.

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It is also less risky to take space on a ranged character opposed to a melee character. Due to the nature of the game (battle royale) the safe action will always be better than the risky action.

sand saddle
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For me frontlining would be sort of just a positioning term - just a formation form.

But due to high mobility, multiple teams, very various environment it is hard to make a 'proper' front line.

There are some exceptions - like in very early game, when you more or less know where everyone is, and TTK is slower - then you can position yourself correctly.
Same goes for late game, where there is much less teams, less space, and you almost always know where the enemies are -> you can create your front and back line.

(based on what I saw on previous comments) I would argue that creating space is not frontlining - but it can be a part of it.
Range hunter can create space by attacks, the same way in LoL poke characters can create space by spamming abilities in some area.
The difference for me would be ability not only to buy/fight the space, but also to defend it. Oath shield can soak damage and buy other hunter time/breath for counter fire - without him moving from a place.
Frontline character for me have to be able to soak a damage but also (it is rather important) have be threatning enough for enemy to now wanting fight him if not necessery - it tend to be done in other games by having a lot of CC and/or taunt.
(cuz no matter how much you can soak damage, if the enemy can just pass you).

In case of Supervive, except Oath in very rare occasions there is no real frontline.

pulsar oracle
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The thing is oath cannot soak damage and he is not threatening when he is taking space. (In general, he can be very threatening if terrain permits) But in almost all other situations the characters that can apply threat are ranged characters with a large threat circle. The idea of soaking damage isn't really relevant. It's far more important to be able to avoid damage through superior movement.

A very simplified version of this is two ranged characters interacting when their threat circles overlap. What plays out is they should exchange LMBs. If one player is struck by an LMB they can retreat or continue to challenge. The goal is to force them to retreat. If one ranged character uses their dash they will enter a punish window which gives the team pressuring the opportunity to go for the kill.

This is much like the "right of way/ priority" linked above. As soon as a player gives ground they are losing. If they use a dash, they should die. (In general, powers and team compositions can heavily impact this as well as specific scenarios).

The taking space IS the concept of frontlining in this game. The concept of frontlining in overwatch and league doesn't translate well at all and trying to think of fights in those terms will leave you in a worse spot.

Understanding how teams look to take space is the first step into deeper and more complex Supervive fights. Unfortunately, you will not see these fights in BR. Due to the majority of teams only choosing to third party/run/play to grief you won't get to see the more interesting parts of Supervive team fights outside of high MMR arena games. There are whole offshoot ways to play fights that just will never be relevant.

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It's sort of sad because I do think even with the high ttk and shallow hunter kits the combat can be super interesting and skill based. It's just not allowed to shine in the BR due to how teams play

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Once they add arena customs it might get better though

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I think once teams in the BR mindset learn to play the game from the arena perspective it will allow them a whole new lens with which to view BR. You just won't get it now due to the way arena matchmaking works.

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Characters with low threat range cannot take space unless conditions are met via powers / terrain / etc. you really shouldn't be trying to take space on Oathbreaker or other low threat range picks. You should be looking to follow up on your ranged characters taking space and forcing other players into punish windows.

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Unless you are brall. Then it doesn't matter! Go wild baby. You can threaten anyone as long as there isn't a team to swoop in and third party you. But you can probably win that too

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Brall breaks so many rules of this game and still manages to be a bad pick. It's actually insane

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But really these are only concepts you can learn and develop by taking repeated fair fights vs teams of equal or greater skill and fighting to the death. You won't get that experience in BR because it is so incompatible with the game mode's win conditions

stoic forge
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It is a thing but only when there are abilities or mechanics in place, without inflating natural toughness via stats

Only character who does that by negating damage is oath, in "frontline" he doesn't really control space well enough due to the map being very open in many areas.

A lack of chokepoints and tighter close quarters map design, doesn't allow for traditional frontline to exist

And this leads into the game being heavily ranged favoured. However, supposedly next patch the map will change, so we'll see how that turns out for ranged and melee characters

pulsar oracle
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It's hard to speculate on changes we haven't played. I can compare it to various areas on the arena map. Even in the tighter areas of the map oath doesn't primarily take space even with the map favoring his restricted threat circle.

Oath can be quite threatening in these areas but he still needs people to enter his threat circle the majority of the time. Given other characters can threaten him without needing to enter his threat circle he doesn't function well for taking space. It's almost always better to have oath be the punish.

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It really comes down to risk vs safety. Ranged characters are a lot less risky to contest space with because they are more safe.

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It's the same reason you have your alistar face check to get vision over your Viktor mid. One is more safe

stoic forge
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something that most melee range characters in vive do not have, outside of brall - brall however is a completely different topic

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oath doesn't really have that threat or explosiveness factor, he's just a meatshield in many cases and isn't even a melee character to begin with

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firefox controls that melee space a lot better than oath does

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(imo)

pulsar oracle
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So can Annie. Would you advocate for Annie leading vision secure over alistar?

stoic forge
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alistar obviously is beefy, no pun intended

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it's threat and durability

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that makes up an actual frontline capable character/role

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but in the end, "frontline", "melee" or whatever other words we use to indicate a specific playstyle which in supervive is not really supported or fostered, is rather pointless, when fundamental issues like map (which seems to be changing to address this), utility and especially defensive ones and other variables aren't taken care of (yet)

fair orchid
stoic forge
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due to various variables, whatever those may be in the end

fair orchid
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👍 was just getting mixed messages from how you were wording things I think

last crown
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I found this thread and it peaked my interest so I am going to add to the discussion.

Firstly I don't think frontlining requires tanking necessarily. In my mind the frontliner is a position in the default formation of a team.

Which player on the team should play that position depends on the situation. In neutral it can be Myth or Shrike while a melee character is standing beside them ready to peel. After getting an opening, the melee character most likely assumes the frontline position and engages.

I do think that having a character on the team that wants to get to melee range is important since finishing off teams from neutral is basically impossible. In order to close out a fight one has to invade the opposing team's space.

Is it supported? I'm not sure since I don't really pick up tank items all too often myself and I don't play melee but my guess is that the tank items are heavily underutilized currently. Everyone wants to be the carry and go deal the maximum damage. Some of the melee characters like Bishop and Oath can be very disruptive even if they didn't blow up everyone instantly. This could create space for the rest of the team to get free shots off. If they get blown up immediately after engaging even with tank items then I would say that either they are engaging too early for the team to follow up or the tank items are garbage and going full damage is the way to go.

last crown
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As an addition to the list above a thing I see players do very rarely is assuming the frontlining position based on their remaining hp compared to their teammates. On multiple occasions I have had low hp and I have tried to move back in the formation to heal only for the formation to move back with me. During the last playtest there was a single heroic Felix player who moved in between myself and a KP to body block their m1s. I was amazed at this Felix player's cognitive capabilities since I have experienced behaviour such as this once or twice during my time playing this game.