Mana channeling

[strong flicker]

Feedback on the new mana channeling change

[gaunt prism]

I would suggest cutting the regen in half from 10% to 5% instead of making it a flat number. but if it is going to stay a flat number, then buff that number A LOT. like start at 5 mana and go up by 5 every level

[crude narwhal]

TL;DR

It's bad. Magic was barely playable with it and only really on ONE particular staff, now it's just downright unusable unless you chuck a Mana Potion, a ressource no other build type requires to deal their dmg

Personally I believe it needs a full reversal

[vernal pike]

I agree, with a change like this I think it's better to make it not feel like a heavy change or not to make that change at all

[crude narwhal]

I had high hopes Magic would get some cool changes and maybe even some buffs to the slower staffs, like maybe the meteor staffs dropping their meteors faster, or suncaller and Flame staff charging their right click faster

but instead we have our only sustain for the singular usable staff gutted

[unkempt monolith]

Ya

[brittle bolt]

potions use up more inventory space. mage and summoner already had to carry extra things like mana food

hotbar space i mean

[crude narwhal]

and food/potions can't even be keybound to anything

[gaunt prism]

one thing I find interesting is no one asked for this change. we've been begging for a stormbringer nerf/change for a year now but everyone has been very happy with the way magic crit works.

[brittle bolt]

and potions have only 1 buff but cooked food has 2 or 3 so the value of hotbar space...

[woeful bloom]

Thats also an issue terraria this is not, we dont have a buff key or a heal key/mana key

[vernal pike]

I want to suggest that they make a bag of potions and food or something like that for the mages in that situation

[brittle bolt]

stormbringer is better without nerf

[crude narwhal]

rather than a bag, I want hotkeys

like 2 food slots and 2 potion slots with their dedicated hotkeys

with mana pots existing or not

that's just a good idea

[vernal pike]

Hotkeys wouldn't solve the space problem, anyway, adding the two doesn't sound bad

[unkempt monolith]

i just want mana channeling reverted so that i feel like I'm able to compete with the other classes in dmg

[brittle bolt]

nothing in this game needs nerf

[crude narwhal]

same

[vernal pike]

ah, I see what you're talking about

[crude narwhal]

as of right now the only thing i truly want is a mana channeling reversal

idc if the pots exist or not

[woeful bloom]

Honestly so many things getting nerfed this update is just leaving a sour taste in my mouth.

[crude narwhal]

i just want MC to go back to what it was so i can use the ONE viable staff again

[unkempt monolith]

Right

[crude narwhal]

same, I was super looking forward to it but as a magic main, seeing the MC nerf made me lose the motivation to play

[brittle bolt]

legendary staff was good

[brittle bolt]

have to say what the devs did right too

[crude narwhal]

it's just ironic that Stormbringer would have made a perfect channeled Magic Legendary

make it magic ranged, remove the mining capability and give it a channeled mana cost

boom, awesome legendary weapon

[unkempt monolith]

Ya i refuse to use phys range and melee because i don't like melee and phys range in games, unless it's like ff14, SAM for life, but now if i wanna be able to do the same dmg i was I'd have to swap class

[crude narwhal]

to be fair, it's not our Dmg that was gutted, it was our sustain

[woeful bloom]

I know this is the MC thread, but pour one out for quill rifle and hand mortars, may they rest in peace.

[unkempt monolith]

Not being able to sustain does drop dps

[crude narwhal]

Long story short, I'm sure that everyone here agrees that MC needs a full reversal to 1.1.2.10 status

[crude narwhal]

that is true. should take a while to empty the 300+ mana pool with arcane staff though. even with the MC nerf. and it does deal 6-8k crits per hit so it's still really strong for boss single target

[woeful bloom]

Also making a change like this with out giving us access to ways to make it better integrate with mana pots is also strange, terraria has their mana pot consumption automated with an accessory and its not an issue at that point

[strong flicker]

This is all good information and if you guys see mention of it in chat just point users to this thread!! I'll share it with the team as your opinions mean a lot to us ❤️

[crude narwhal]

if MC could have used a change it might have been something like a 10% chance per talent tier to refund the mana cost of the last spell you cast
that way it would be "worse" for arcane staff
but it would help out the slower staffs by making them, on average, last twice as long
so instead of a mana regain on a crit, we'd have cost refunds
if we'd top that off by removing the delay from the regen mechanic I'd believe that magic should be fine
you may run out of mana at some point but due to constantly active regen and the mana refund you should last a while
that's what I personally feel would be a good change to mana channeling+mana regen
as a combined package deal

[unkempt monolith]

Yesterday i had just killed Urschleim for the first time, now with MC changed pretty sure i won't be able to with the same area i had cleared out for him

I'd just like a reversal to the change and buffs to the slower staffs to be more viable

[crude narwhal]

that's the simplest thing to do yeah

i agree

[woeful bloom]

Mage sorely needed a buff for its other weapons, not a nerf like this

[unkempt monolith]

I find simplest can be the best often times

[crude narwhal]

1000000% agreed

i still remember finding arcane staff the first time a couple year/s? back

i never used any other staff again cuz they absolutely paled in comparison

their higher dmg per hit was just absolutely not worth the trade in attack speed and mana cost

by the time you hit once with them, IF the enemy didn't move. arcane staff killed it

it's kinda funny how right now, suncaller is somehow the only exception to some degree cuz it can selfsustain itself due to having explosive dmg so it gives you 25 mana

[unkempt monolith]

I remember finding it just last week or so when i started, I'd get happy whenever i got a new staff just to be let down because arcane was still just better than them, tho i like scholar staff for sniping

[crude narwhal]

or 75 if charged

[pseudo elm]

I'd like to point out that mana cost scaling still being in the game is a crime and it's half the reason the mana system is so bad

[crude narwhal]

that too

[woeful bloom]

Getting punished for upgrading a mage weapon is wild yeah, what game makes upgrading something more expensive to use

[crude narwhal]

a lot of them, actually (not that I can list any but I'm sure I played a bunch over the decades)

[pseudo elm]

Regarding regen delay, I assume it's there so your regen stat can't be high enough to outpace mana expenditure

[crude narwhal]

i mean

let's just nerf regen value

but remove delay

[pseudo elm]

I mean that's why you want it gone though right? So you can just keep constantly attacking?

[crude narwhal]

that way you don't have 100% sustained mana

i don't mind running out at some point

but that point should be a long way away

[pseudo elm]

I feel like if you nerf passive mana regen that also makes mana channeling more necessary

[crude narwhal]

not just a short run

[crude narwhal]

for the slower staffs and with how MC works right now, yes

[woeful bloom]

With how it is now when you run dry, you just do nothing for 5 seconds because mana pots weirdly have a cooldown

[crude narwhal]

@pseudo elm that's why i think something like this would work well

constant mana regen with the occasional refund of the cost of whatever spell you used last

[pseudo elm]

It'd still be on crit I assume?

[crude narwhal]

personally I'd say generic 50% chance

not crit conditioned

[pseudo elm]

What if you did something like

Crits restore 50% of mana cost of the spell cast

[unkempt monolith]

MC isn't even good for slower staffs so i despise this nerf to the only viable staff

[crude narwhal]

I don't think that would work well with the slower staffs or the staff with no crit chance on them

it would trigger far less often

[pseudo elm]

Hmm

[crude narwhal]

that's why i thought of a 50% chance for a full refund on a hit

[pseudo elm]

I personally would prefer it still remain crit related somehow

Ideally slower staves would just use a different regen style

[crude narwhal]

but what would that be?

we don't have any other form of regen other than base regeneration and now pots

well

unless you're suncaller

then you get 25 mana each cast (explosive tree node)

making it essentially free to cast

[brittle bolt]

and meteor staffs

[brittle bolt]

all of them

[crude narwhal]

those are explosions?

[unkempt monolith]

Hate those

[brittle bolt]

no. they slow

i mean. they break walls

[pseudo elm]

The main thing for me is they just need to have multiple different options for mana restoration

[crude narwhal]

they do???

huh?

[brittle bolt]

yes. test the corrupted meteor staff

[crude narwhal]

oh lol

yeh i just did cuz i never noticed

[brittle bolt]

but they are not explosive

[crude narwhal]

yeh, only fire staff right click and suncaller in general can use the explosive tree mana node

[brittle bolt]

true its a side effect to have the blast from from the sky but they are strong

[crude narwhal]

on that note: suncaller explosions need to scale with magic

[pseudo elm]

I'm guessing it's just anything that counts as aoe damage procs it

[brittle bolt]

i wish there was a setting which lets you switch to the regular angle to cast blast

[brittle bolt]

like in the game menu

[crude narwhal]

well, the meteor staffs don't proc the +25 mana node but they do destroy walls

anyway

as of now

MC NEEDS a reversal

anything else is up to debate

but i do think my idea with making mana channeling into a refund talent while removing the delay from mana regen entirely would be a possibly good change to make

that way you'd scale from "damn, I'm a budding magician that has just learned how magic works and needs assistance and breaks in-between his casts" to "Now that I'm a Master Magician, I rarely ever run out of Mana so I can cast continuously"

[brittle bolt]

i have a feeling the next tier above legendary: to have a mage staff with infinite mana

kinda like the no durability thing

[crude narwhal]

Technically that would be a staff with no mana cost cuz mana itself is a Ressource unrelated to the item other than that the item uses it

[brittle bolt]

yes but its the kinda legendary staff we need

[crude narwhal]

As of now? Kinda. But it would need to do other things too to be viable compared to arcane staff

[brittle bolt]

yes it needs to be strong

[brittle bolt]

this is also something people forget

cooked food be like having 2 hotbar slots within 1 hotbar slot

mage and summoner carry extra dish for mana, now will need to carry mana potion too

atleast the dish you can combine with some other stat like magic barrier or magic damage. gold glow tulip + lamp fish or litho trilobite

[crude narwhal]

personally I can't say I was using a dish just for mana

I was using one dish for all 4 magic buffs + glow

[unkempt monolith]

What do use to make that one?

[crude narwhal]

golden tulip/rice

[brittle bolt]

thats what i meant

[brittle bolt]

this is magic barrier dish

[unkempt monolith]

Also gives magic dmg, max mana and mana every sec

[crude narwhal]

It's an everything dish

All 4 magic stats if both are golden

[brittle bolt]

the max mana is kinda low but yes

i think a non-mage would use it for the magic barrier alone

another item we need is permanent max mana foods

[brittle bolt]

like how we have for health except for mana instead

[brittle bolt]

the old character's mana regen would be enough with a low amount tho

hopefully they bring that back

[brittle bolt]

agreed its conveniant dish

especially if a player who only wants to carry 1 meal in their hotbar. will be good for those types of players. not everyone enoys the cooking part of the game so something simple they will like

the ones who enjoy cooking will also like it. so its win win situation

[gaunt prism]

so I was testing out the mana nerf and honestly...it may not be a big deal. it may also depend on the build now. But I used the new pajamas and with no food buffs and my titan abilities off I still managed to effectively have infinite mana. DPS was decent too.

[pseudo elm]

I don't really mind that it's nerfed now that we have some other decent ways to restore mana

It should just still be a good option for high attack speed crit builds

[pseudo elm]

I think what mana could probably use is just lowering the regen delay. I know some want it removed entirely but the purpose is to prevent regen from overcoming consumption, it just needs to kick in a bit faster

[crude narwhal]

I still really dislike the change

especially now that I've gotten to know about the legendary staff

with how it works it's painfully obvious that its unique mechanic is the sole reason they gutted MC in the first place

in other words, the slower, costly staffs that were already not good to use have gotten even worse through the MC nerf because of the new legendary staff

[unkempt monolith]

new legendary staff is fun, got it not long ago

[brittle bolt]

pre-wall staffs have to be tested at base level too(arcane doesn't count because its boss drop).

need to fight malugaz with old MC then fight malugaz with new MC

this was mainly used for light in the early game. non-mages use to see mobs from a distance.

with cooking is still used for mana in the end-game and mid-game

but is not used as a cooking ingredient in end-game and mid-game. because better max health options.

so if there will be new ingredients for mana regen/max mana one that has higher stats than the then game would be more balanced. but... not everyone is into cooking: so MC has to be strong too

when i say balanceed i don't mean only stat wise but also because a farmer would end up planting more of 1 type of crop than the others. but the seeds you gain in adventure you want to plant every type of crop to increase the value.

unless they create a new npc which you can trade seeds by paying with seeds. to convert them so you have the type of seed you need

[pseudo elm]

I think just halving the original percentage would have been fine. Now that we have mana potions I think slower, more stamina heavy staves are a lot more useable

[crude narwhal]

I'm still not entirely settled on mana pots. i don't mind them existing but I'm afraid what their existance means for the future of magic

they are, fundamentally, just a ressource (on a cooldown, even) you need to sustain your dmg output

a ressource no other build type needs

physical ranged/explosive weapons don't need ammunition

melee doesn't cost anything either

and just magic has mana, which doesn't even regenerate while you use it

[pseudo elm]

I mean grenades?

Bombs?

[crude narwhal]

fair counter point i suppose

[pseudo elm]

Melee's resource is basically health potions lol

Unless you're using stormbringer like a dweeb

[crude narwhal]

i mean, you do have life leech

and usually armor so you get slapped with less force

[pseudo elm]

I really just think they need to do away with cost scaling for mana

Rebalance max mana increases a bit

And like mana cast costs in general

[crude narwhal]

the staves are definitely far to expensive

well

all besides suncaller/legendary/arcane

cuz they are too slow to sustain but fast enough to not allow for even a tiny fraction of mana regen between casts

I just feel like once you have a "endgame-character" you shouldn't need mana pots

but as of now

you do

[pseudo elm]

I mean the point is that you fire off a volley and then you wait for it to regen

Or you chug a pot

I think the delay just needs to be lowered, it's too high but removing it outright isn't the move imo

[crude narwhal]

i feel like it'd be fine to have 0 delay

but nerf the overall output of regen a bit

[pseudo elm]

This would just make mana channeling more necessary though

[crude narwhal]

I don't necessarily think that's true

as you'd have a constant regen backing you up

right now you need to wait and do nothing once your mana is empty for it to fill up again

[pseudo elm]

You'd have longer sustained fire but then you're waiting longer once you run out

[crude narwhal]

with no delay you'd have a constant stream of mana coming back while you cast

[crude narwhal]

yeah

so for most content you'd probably not run out

and for the rare cases you do

you then still have pots IF you need em

[pseudo elm]

This just makes it physical with extra steps

[crude narwhal]

and that would be bad how?

[pseudo elm]

The point should be higher bursts of damage but with resource management and time between attacks

[pseudo elm]

Why even have mana?

[crude narwhal]

physical is basically just magical without mana cost

they're both extremely powerful

[pseudo elm]

It's supposed to be a resource that you manage

We might as well just go back to just having ranged and melee

[crude narwhal]

then either give phys melee/range a ressource they have to manage too

or at least make it so that once you are in the endgame you have less need to manage it as your reward for sticking to the game and "finishing it"

[pseudo elm]

Like idk man if you don't like mana management I don't know why you'd use a magic build

[crude narwhal]

I don't mind it in games where it makes sense to have it that way.

like in an mmo

cuz there each class has their own ressource to balance

but i do mind it if someone who chooses to go magic is "punished" by being the only one (besides grenades I guess) who has to manage it

give phys ranged builds the requirement to have ammunition with them

[pseudo elm]

Like the point is to distinguish it from ranger, if you just have near constant mana uptime and you basically can't run out then it's just ranger in a pointy hat

[crude narwhal]

and melee a stamina bar or something

then it'd be totally fine

[crude narwhal]

it's already distinguished enough by having unique visuals and it's own type of dmg

cuz fundamentally that's all the difference between a physical dps and a magical one

the type of dmg and visuals

[pseudo elm]

Well no, the reason it's separate is because it has different mechanics

[crude narwhal]

that's utterly dependent on the game you play but is fundamentally not really true

[pseudo elm]

If your argument is genuinely "make mana a non-issue" I don't think this discussion is really worth continuing

[crude narwhal]

it should only be an issue during the early/mid-game

a typical progression. apprentice mage. needs breaks to recharge. master mage, doesn't really need breaks cuz he mastered his art.

there should be a reward for progressing through it and being able to sustain your output feels like the correct one

for corekeeper

[pseudo elm]

I think the amount you can continue attacking for should increase

[crude narwhal]

cuz right now. i can either decide to go physical and kill mobs and bosses without worrying about anything running out. or I choose the visually distinct magic type where essentially i do the very same, dealing dmg from afar, but now I have a ressource tied to it

[pseudo elm]

Which is what mana reserve increases should do

[crude narwhal]

yes

[pseudo elm]

I still don't think it's at all a good idea to remove mana regen delay entirely

[crude narwhal]

with the current regen rate, entirely removing it would be too much, that I agree with

that's why I think nerfing the regen output but removing the delay would be a good middle

you have longer sustain that way

[pseudo elm]

That's not a good middle, that's just the worst of both man

[crude narwhal]

not really, cuz we already have mana pots anyway

if we didn't have mana pots I'd agree with you

but because we have them, less overall regen but no delay is far more preferable than what we have right now

[pseudo elm]

I don't see why that's preferable

Balance-wise it just makes the system more polarized

If you have bad regen it feels like crap and if you have super high regen it outpaces expenditure

Which is a no-no

I like how the system is right now besides the delay being too long. Reduce that and remove the scaling from mana costs and I think it will be fine

[crude narwhal]

and that's why the middle ground is to have a constant medium regen to increase your time to deal dmg, but still make the alredy existing mana pots valubale by reducing your downtime

[pseudo elm]

They already reduce your downtime right now though? Like if you need more stamina now just pop one

[crude narwhal]

yeh but right now, to be honest. I'd rather wait than bring another hotbar item with me, cuz once the regen starts it tops off mana decently enough (although it could be faster tbh)

with the change, you'd have a longer dmg window, and be more inclined to use the consumable item that is obviously intended to be used once you actually DO run out

if you run out before your target dies

[pseudo elm]

I think that would make the potions feel more necessary though

Which is seemingly not what people want

[crude narwhal]

they are already necessary

[pseudo elm]

You just said you'd rather wait though

[crude narwhal]

yeh, cuz I am still an arcane abuser and my wait is far far shorter

but any other staff?

yeh nah

even the legendary staff eats through mana like a hot knife cuts through butter

the rightclick is interesting though

[pseudo elm]

Idk man I think it'd be fine if they just got rid of the scaling

[crude narwhal]

that would definitely help the slower staffs

or rather the early staffs

[pseudo elm]

Rebalance mana around that, and regen values would feel even better and the only places you'd really need mana pots for the most part is boss fights

[crude narwhal]

later staffs like our new legendary and the corrupted meteor staff aren't really affected much by it cuz you can't really uprade em much (then again, corrupted meteor is effin expensive from the get go)

most staffs do need a cost adjustment

[pseudo elm]

As an aside I'd really like it if there was a way to synergize melee weapons and magic

[crude narwhal]

this is just a joke but we already have that

[pseudo elm]

I don't mean the magic sword

[crude narwhal]

and it's called Stormbringer-the falsely categorized chain lightning staff

[pseudo elm]

I mean like, a sword or a dagger that gives mana on hit

[crude narwhal]

that'd be cool

[pseudo elm]

The ritual dagger would be perfect for that

So when you run out of mana you rush in with melee to fill it up faster

[crude narwhal]

theoretically we have synergy with mortars/nades

[pseudo elm]

Explosives has so many problems with it

[crude narwhal]

which is another ressource again xD

[crude narwhal]

the abysmal range unless you right click throw the nades for one

[pseudo elm]

The range and damage of bombs is also just terrible

[crude narwhal]

mainly because we can't properly scale their dmg as well as conventional weaponry

[pseudo elm]

That too

I think bombs need big radius increases as a baseline though

[crude narwhal]

the values on the bombs are higher than the values of most weapons but we don't have much that scales with it which results in melee/ranged/magic dealing mroe dmg in the end

[pseudo elm]

Bombs are basically worthless for excavation even early game cuz their radius is so short

It's horrible

[crude narwhal]

I'm not entirely sure I'd want the mining range to be higher

[pseudo elm]

Well the thing is a bomb's damage only tends to be like 4-5 hits with a regular weapon

[crude narwhal]

i wouldn't mind their enemy dmg range to be increased though

[pseudo elm]

They're crap for it right now

[crude narwhal]

can't speak for bombs but the mortars seem fine for mining

[pseudo elm]

Well I mean bombs specifically

A regular bomb imo should have like a 5 tile radius minimum but it's like 3 right now

Nevermind how awkward it is to actually scale the explosives skill without a mortar

[crude narwhal]

awkward is putting it mildly

your genuinely best bet is to burnzooka "king of slimes" your explosives vs. a slime boss

[pseudo elm]

It's wretched

[crude narwhal]

anything else is a lot of random running around the map

[pseudo elm]

I think the way a lot of the skills are leveled could use a rework

[crude narwhal]

cuz a materializer farm doesn't really work that well either

[crude narwhal]

agreed

[pseudo elm]

Using slow weapons makes it take so much longer than fast ones

[crude narwhal]

at the very least a small change as to how much exp a weapon gets you is necessary

like the experience tweak mod does

[pseudo elm]

Yeah

[crude narwhal]

which makes slower weapons of a type give 2-3 exp per hit compared to their faster counterparts

which is a nice start

[pseudo elm]

That would be nice

[crude narwhal]

there's also weapons that kinda need a "nerf" in how much exp they give

tested it out of interest and it took me literally 2-3 minutes to max out ranged on a blank slate character by just handing him a shuriken

on the 5 brute shroom materializer farm

you just use the right click and it gives an absurd amount of exp cuz each rightclick hits each enemy multiple times

literally less than 3 minutes and it was done

meanwhile doing the same on melee/magic/summoning/etc took way longer

[pseudo elm]

Lots of small things like this with the character progression systems

Makes it sort of unsatisfying, wish they'd take the proper time to fix it

[crude narwhal]

it's just such a slog cuz you also have to repair your gear so many times

that's the even dumber part. guess how often i had to repair the shuriken within those 3 minutes

less than 0 times

the whole process took like half the reinforcement bar

meanwhile you gotta repair your arcane staff for magic like idk. 10-20+ times

same-ish for melee

but durability is just another can of rants to open. it's one of those systems i find okay to have early on but once you played enough to have a base so full of ressources you could never possibly run out of them unless you terraform the world or build an absolutely massive base, then durability is just annoying and unless you wanna go back to base every 2-5 minutes you gotta bring materials and a table with you at all times which is just sooo annoying

it's just a unnecessary usage of time by then cuz even repairing your gear 100 times wouldn't put a dent into your storage

[pseudo elm]

Honestly repairing could probably just be removed in favor of only reinforcement, I don't think it really adds anything besides acting like a soft timer to control when the player comes back to their base

[brittle bolt]

isn't mage class higher damage but slower? kinda like musket.

atleast it would make sense if mage class was like that in terms of game balancing.

if the mana is reduced then the damage needs increase

[brittle bolt]

gotta roleplay: old person with walking stick.

staffs are just cool: majestic

yeah they can add staffs for ranged class but that would cause confusion. like all summoner weapons are books, all bows and guns are ranged, anything blade like is melee. mage has to be staff

[unkempt monolith]

Well in 14 at least the mage classes have their mana + their class gauge to manage

tho except certain exceptions follow your rotation and you'll never have a mana issue

[brittle bolt]

the magic sword is a confusion weapon

[brittle bolt]

dakon says melee skill doesn't level up

[crude narwhal]

https://tenor.com/view/why-monkey-what-huh-confused-gif-3006908007927048834

[brittle bolt]

gotta know which class is which

[brittle bolt]

yeah its easier for old players but people who are new to the game...

[pseudo elm]

My point was that we shouldn't make mana easy or remove magic as a class, I was just trying to illustrate why it was a shortsighted mentality

[brittle bolt]

yes i understand

[brittle bolt]

it was more of a joke

[brittle bolt]

devs probably don't want another stormbringer situation. i have not tested the legendary staff but if mana is reduced the damage would be more right?

then again its perfectly fine to have another storm bringer situation. this is a sandbox game if a weapon becomes too powerful that it 1 shots any boss thats ok because fun

the tool you use is like choosing game difficulty