elfin notch
Reason: They're universal party damage modifiers (20-25% from Blight, 5-10% from Shifta) locked to specific main classes. Therefore, their absence from a large party is effectively a DPS penalty.
Why: Large party quests, especially boss ones, feel notably slow if both are absent. In the case of timed instances like LC or the Crimson Realm boss, it can lead to the boss not dying.
Additional Reasons: On a related note, Nidhoggr Weakness should also only apply to the user, but also last longer.
slender crystal
Imean at the very most I'd say it could be weakened a bit so it doesn't feel so steep when both are missing- but to remove it's party play function entirely seems way too steep I'll be honest...
Nidhoggr adjustments are a whole seperate thing (I still believe the effects should be re-balanced (the difference between bosses / non bosses shouldn't be as insane as it is) and then extended a fair bit beyond 3 seconds; but still Nidhoggr needs it's own conversation as a whole
elfin notch
The thing is that Ranger's identity isn't really that of a support class, it's meant to be a "shoot things" class. Blight was just something that got tacked on to it back in PSO2c Launch, which of course all sorts of balance issues.
slender crystal
Imean whether or not that was the intended identity back in it's inception- blight is a part of Ra's identity now regardless
iron kernel
Personally I wouldn't remove their party capabilities cause it would remove some kind of identity to them for party play.
But I would certainly revisit the buffs of some of them and some classes that should bring a lot more to party play to compensate the gap of utility between the classes.
I honestly find it weird we have 5 (4 if you count FO as a "Down specialist for parties") classes competing for solo pure DPS class, and even on that aspect it has huge a gap of balance between them unfortunately.
It's just weird that we say the game isnt trinity focused which is partially true, but at the same time it kinda is cause its the optimal way of playing the game for fast clear times, so removing those party buffs would def break the trinity on the party aspect... But that would also bring other problems on the table cause their base DPS will be subpar to OP classes, and every body will compete for "Pure DPS" role which will be very monotone imo.
slender crystal
I do have one Ra friend who has always had mixed feelings about that but at best I think they'd only say blight should be weakened rather than being removed as a party play feature
mellow sky
The thing is that Ranger's identity isn't really that of a support class, it's m...
But it is.
Different issue would be that you don't want it to be.
shy pivot
Personally I feel like they should just remove the damage bonus from them
The ability to convert a point to a weakspot is pretty strong already
mellow sky
I feel like they should remove the class entirely. 
shy pivot
This way they're more prominent on dishing the availability of weakspot in a run
slender crystal
The ability to convert a point to a weakspot is pretty strong already
But then that's moreorless the same as just weakening the effect rather than removing the party aspect of it entirely no?
deft cobalt
I feel like they should remove the class entirely. <:Rappyreaction:9266492655797...
yes, so we won't see a rifle NA player on the field anymore. kudos
shy pivot
I feel like they should remove the ability for them to be hold-able
Or atleast the ability to-- just convert them to Hr TMGs at this point
outer briar
Worst post ever.
mellow sky
Techers and Rangers united against this post. World peace has been achieved.
elfin notch
I'd prefer if Blight was just deleted altogether, but SEGA seems to be adverse to deleting skills, so I had to instead suggest it differently.
And no, these changes wouldn't make Ranger and Techter obsolete.
slender crystal
But then my question here is
I don't think I've ever heard a techter or ranger say they would rather s/d or blight not exist
elfin notch
Ranger would likely get buffed to compensate the fact that it's no longer gatekeeping a universal DPS modifier. Ditto with Techter, though I believe Techter is kind of strong as is atm?
unreal pier
I don’t think deleting it altogether is great - it’s a fun minigame to play on the class, and it’s ok for classes to have things like that. Just 25% and a weakpoint is a lot for a modern party buff
mellow sky
Let's make Bo not down, since their absence from a large party may result in a DPS penalty.
slender crystal
The whole premise of "it makes such a big difference when they're in the group / when they're not" makes sense but
I just don't think removing blight / s/d entirely is the right answer at all
gritty latch
end of the day its just 4 years too late to make this kind of change lol
mellow sky
While we're at it, let's ban well skilled players from the game, since their absence results in a DPS penalty.
elfin notch
Bo's boost is a little questionable too, but it's not quite direct damage. Plus, the OP text limit was too small.
outer briar
end of the day its just 4 years too late to make this kind of change lol
Try 13 lmao
elfin notch
It's not too late honestly. Just lower all boss HP by like 25%.
mellow sky
What...
slender crystal
I don’t think deleting it altogether is great - it’s a fun minigame to play on t...
Hit the nail on the head here yea
I don't play Ra that often but upkeeping blight is honestly one of the enjoyable parts of it for me + as Avri said- it's just that the damage multiplier is particularly high
It doesn't need to be completely deleted though
mellow sky
It could just be slightly higher to that of Te, maybe.
slender crystal
It's not too late honestly. Just lower all boss HP by like 25%.
Also for the love of god they already struggle they already struggle to make things balanced for casual vs pro players LOL I don't think lowering boss hp by 25% is a good idea at all either
mellow sky
Compared to Shifta, it has two drawbacks: it's on a single part, and it doesn't last for as long.
elfin notch
Making apply just for the user is another option, but also if it didn't exist it'd probably result in Ranger getting single target DPS buffs and a universal buff too to make up for Blight's absence.
mellow sky
So of course it should provide something greater than Shifta.
slender crystal
Compared to Shifta, it has two drawbacks: it's on a single part, and it doesn't ...
mellow sky
Yeah you gotta scale it.
deft cobalt
So of course it should provide something greater than Shifta.
give Jellen and Zalure back to Te and I'm good. and Anti.
north widget
Awful suggestion
north widget
It's not too late honestly. Just lower all boss HP by like 25%.
boss hp is already low, consider they scaled based on amount of players
it doesnt account for shifta, weak bullet and other things
cold basin
Large party quests [...] feel notably slow if both are absent.
The game is balanced around Solo Players being able to barely clear anything by the time it releases, or at least Sega tries to do that.
HP Scaling on Bosses goes by the formula n^(2/3) with n being the amount of players.
As consequence, the Boss HP Scaling keeps decreasing as playercount goes higher.
1 Player = 100%
4 Player = 240%
8 Player = 400%
32 Player = 1000%
So the whole argument of "But especially on Large Party Quests" is kinda junk. It's not an absence of Ranger/Techter that does slow down things in "Large Party Content", it's the presence of Ranger and Techter that speed things up in a content that is already scaling extremely slow on HP to account for the variance of player gear level and skill level. Since removing Blight/Shifta wouldn't affect the Solo Performance of Meta Classes that Sega uses a benchmark to rebalance the HP for all content with, the HP of the bosses would likely stay unchanged.
Basically, you are suggesting that because you don't like having slower runs if your MPA not aligns, you rather always have slower runs since the existence of Ranger and Techer in Multiplayer Content is not being accounted by Sega when scaling the HP of enemies.
If you cannot accept dealing with the randomness coming from other people in Public Matchmaking playing what they want, rather ask yourself what you can do to avoid public matchmaking..? Trying to remove any interaction between classes will ultimately just lead to a world where everyone plays whatever grants the highest Singleplayer DPS but in Multiplayer. Except PUGs not know the numbers and a month later we have you returning to this thread asking if we can remove any class but Hunter because "I hate having slower runs from others playing Off-Meta Classes."
slender crystal
Well damn when you put it that way the premise kinda falls apart even more LOL + valid point with the scaling since if it really did scale evenly then solo would just be faster regardless tho ik for the very top end of players it probably is;
Really does just come down to players contributions / everyone pulling their weight- blight and s/d helping but not being the core game changer
unreal pier
that’s a lot of faith in sega’s testers to assume they precisely tune things to be barely soloable at launch (ignoring all the ones that weren’t)
cold basin
that’s a lot of faith in sega’s testers to assume they precisely tune things to ...
I didn't say they do a good job at it. MDFD was messed up and required a Potency Buff to Cannon to fix.
Anyway, argument stands. The whole thing is i slippery slope. Yesterday it's removing Blight/Shifta, Today it's Removing Bouncer's Down Accumulation ("My run is so slow because Bouncer not breaks the boss early enough") or Elemental Down System altogether ("My run is so slow is Force doesn't elemental downs the boss") and then tomorrow its just straight up removing any class but one that does the most damage ("My run is so slow because someone plays Braver :(").
pulsar egret
Remove warcry
elfin notch
This is mainly to address raw DPS. I don’t mind small scale support stuff, but Blight and Shifta are too much
north widget
no the issue is the lack of real support from other classes
if everyone is a dps everyone can be a support
slender crystal
This is mainly to address raw DPS. I don’t mind small scale support stuff, but B...
And again LOL I think the point everyone is trying to say is
They don't need to be completely removed; at the very most they could just be weakened a bit
Blight and Shifta is part of what Ra and Te are at this point so removing it entirely is removing part of their identity / what they're known for
As you said they're "too much" though arguably shifta isn't as excessive as blight
Complete removal just isn't the answer
cold basin
This is mainly to address raw DPS. I don’t mind small scale support stuff, but B...
Whenever your MDFS run is 5 minutes or 10 minutes because you get a break on Phase 1 and skip the entirety of Phase 2 including it's long a- cutscenes may not be treated a small scale support stuff. Going like his we have to remove Bouncer's Down Accumulation from the game.
It also fails to address the argument that (unlike Base Game) the existence of Blight Rounds and Shifta not affect the HP Scaling of the boss.
Or to abstract your argument:
"I don't like X when Y is met. Let's ensure Y is always met."
The logic not works out for us.
livid edge
nothing in pso2 ever was balanced around shifta, and post magatsu nothing was really balanced around blight either
unreal pier
this whole thing is just rehashing bring the player not the class from like 18 years ago, the arguments are the same as when people were malding about windfury totem and stuff back then.
Some people are really attached to gigantic support buffs or are afraid their friends won't like them anymore if they don't bring the damage of 2 or 3 players as a passive buff.
livid edge
(wym the x3 damage multiplier is broken? you're not making sense it's perfectly fine /s)
north widget
hold my zanverse beer
livid edge
in the first place, pso2 uqs were balanced to be defeated by only 4 players (which is why the rematch uqs are slightly nerfed with a max of 4 players)
cold basin
nothing in pso2 ever was balanced around shifta, and post magatsu nothing was re...
tbh unlike NGS we have little information on what affected HP Scaling decisions on Base b/c it not followed any pattern.
Blight was blatant one for how broken it was (300, 255, 60 Jammed, 20) but what about Zanverse or what Hero did to HP Scaling of Lv.1-50?
Towards the end things were so messed up that enemies had HP Multipliers added to them with seemingly no system. All enemies in Ultimate Zones usually had around 1400% of the HP they were designed for in the gamefiles, as observed with tools such as HP Indicators from Sziadan and such.
However, this all goes way to Offtopic and not really contributes to the discussion of Rubinus trying to dismantle Multiplayer NGS here.
thorny folio
no
thorny folio
The ability to convert a point to a weakspot is pretty strong already
its the dmg multi which makes it count as a weak spot though
weakspot = 1.2x or higher inherent dmg multi on a part
thorny folio
And no, these changes wouldn't make Ranger and Techter obsolete.
they definitely would make them much weaker
theyre balanced around that to a degree and this is not a bad thing
ngs already has struggled with class identity and roles
removing more is not the solution
the last thing i want is everyone to be full selfish dps that is incredibly boring
full trinity is oftentimes too much for me also, i really like how ngs practices a very soft one
imo its the best balance to give every player their own agency and strength while still making groups encouraged and having classes provide their own strengths into a party
thorny folio
It's not too late honestly. Just lower all boss HP by like 25%.
that would be a big buff to force
you cant just "just do X" in a game like this (or any, really) with so many interconnecting factors...
thorny folio
It could just be slightly higher to that of Te, maybe.
i once felt this way but i actually dont anymore, i think 20/25 is fine like at moooost i would say 15/20?
because te provides so much more than just dmg
so in that sense they really do bring equal value nowadays
te makes everyone easily pb every 76 seconds, te gives everyone 700 potency every 76 seconds, te gives 5/10.25 damage, te gives bulk, te gives sustain/aoe healing, te gives full pp refresh, te gives ailment resist (relevant on leciel f/e) te gives pp recovery te gives eledown contribution te is an absolute monster for mobs
all of that does add up to 25% in my opinion, more or less. they both provide incredible value
unreal pier
25% as a party buff is enormous. 15% is still also enormous
basic attack ranger contributes as much as anyone else in a 4 man group. That's crazy
thorny folio
its not that it isnt enormous
unreal pier
it's a very broken ability people just seem to be ok with it
thorny folio
im saying te is just as enormous
ppl just dnt like to see it that way because te's support is a lot less direct
but te is absurdly strong
and i am fine with it
i WANT support classes to exist
i wish every class had their own contribution ticket
unreal pier
everyone being a support is also boring though, right?
thorny folio
no
because theyd each bring different kinds
dmg is all the same
im not opposed to rebalancing support as a whole, in terms of raw power
but if we do i absolutely demand more support spread out to other classes
we need more support options, not less.
i spent 225 million meseta to be able to make myself a support main, that should say where i lie on this debate pretty clearly
unreal pier
so is having a whole bunch of different flavours of dps not fine then? We'd still go pick the four best supports for meta comps anyway so it doesn't add variety either
again these are ancient arguments. You're never going to find an answer that pleases everyone
what I personally want is to not have to worry about bringing a player on a specific class because it brings something that trumps what any player brings
ranger definitely falls in that in most content with a boss to me, techter is definitely strong in a lot of situations too
thorny folio
then just dont cos everything is clearable on pure dps
i dont see why support is bad if the game isnt balanced around needing them
efficiency is the killer of fun
a very real thing for this specific debate, i should add
unreal pier
it's not just a fun a little bonus unless you're accusing sega of being inept and forgetting that an extra 25% buff exists that makes content too easy
thorny folio
im not opposed to rebalancing support as a whole, in terms of raw power
already said
but if we do do that i really want more options also
i also think i wouldnt be opposed to moving away from class-based support and more into gear-based support, so that anyone can be a support in the flavor they want, and it adds build diversity
ive been asking for support-based EX augments and weapons for a while now
the key to me is that u need to have more than just dps for a game to be fun
elfin notch
tbh unlike NGS we have little information on what affected HP Scaling decisions ...
I'm not trying to dismantle multiplayer, just suggesting for dependence on the presence of certain classes for max damage be removed while keeping those classes useful.
wintry monolith
I think the solution is to nerf Ranger's DPS in group content such that the impact of blight rounds in 4-man makes up for the DPS gap caused by Ranger doing less DPS.
slender crystal
You're joking- right? Right?...
elfin notch
There's also the issue with said universal mods being tied to a single class.
Sure, PSO1 had Shifta and Zalure, but 4/12 of the classes had that, and 2 of them slightly weaker versions.
NGS has 1 out of 10 classes usingt SHifta, and another single 1 using "Zalure".
The general "conditions" are a little harder to achive here
thorny folio
im just not sure how this is a big issue tho
are ppl rlly being pressured/forced into playing ra and te?
im a support main and i dont feel it
wintry monolith
We take Long Range Advantage and turn it into Long Range Disadvantage such that Ranger's DPS contribution is similar when soloing, or when in 4-man group content (perhaps a second tier of Long Range Super Disadvantage for 8-man content). ||\s||
livid edge
are ppl rlly being pressured/forced into playing ra and te?
no since there's no hard content
thorny folio
the main reason i dont play ra or te is cos i dont like their weapon fantasies
slender crystal
are ppl rlly being pressured/forced into playing ra and te?
Well there was a time with solus / mdfa /uq's where people would leave entirely if there wasn't a Ra present
thorny folio
i am a support mage player
livid edge
but whenever a new mtsq releases you see people complain they can't get a ra, or that they get forced to play ra lmao
(even though you don't ever need one to clear so far)
thorny folio
Well there was a time with solus / mdfa /uq's where people would leave entirely ...
that just really sounds like bad player behavior though
like i said earlier
efficiency is the destroyer of fun
livid edge
nah it's just the average player is really bad at the game and needs the crutch
thorny folio
stop doing it to yourselves and more importantly stop trying to do it to others
i mean tbh i could see an argument to remove blight and shifta and replace them with weapons that do the same thing but a bit weaker
then any class can support
slender crystal
that just really sounds like bad player behavior though
It is but yea as flo said that's kinda just how a lot of players are and there are a lot of players who can't carry their own weight, whether that's because of their gear or the effort they put into playing
thorny folio
ra would need some side support to keep its theme but im sure it can be arranged
te has deband and extra field and oe already so it should be ok
elfin notch
Shifta being PP gain/regen instead of raw damage would still make it very much useful
slender crystal
everyone being a support is also boring though, right?
Swear I'm agreeing with you on everything as of late I swear LOL
Yea I think every class having some kind of support doesn't really fix the situation that much either
livid edge
who needs pp in the current economy
slender crystal
Shifta being PP gain/regen instead of raw damage would still make it very much u...
Gu: 
livid edge
jav holders?
slender crystal
And doesn't overemphasis or whichever its called already do PP and HP or is that just HP?
thorny folio
Shifta being PP gain/regen instead of raw damage would still make it very much u...
it needs to be something else
livid edge
full regen for both + buff to max pp
thorny folio
deband already is 1.2x to all pp gain
maybe deband could increase maximum hp and shifta can become pp recovery and pp cost though
elfin notch
Jav is another issue that I wish they'd address, but that's a different topic
unreal pier
*Swear I'm agreeing with you on everything as of late I swear LOL*
Yea I think e...
this one's low hanging fruit. I was around and active when this was a big discussion in gaming so I know both sides pretty well (and am obviously a Ghostcrawler fan, I don't hide it)
livid edge
the last time i ran out of pp was on a really slow vael pug
then refilled it immediately, thanks volk
cold basin
I'm not trying to dismantle multiplayer, just suggesting for dependence on the p...
Well, so where do we objectively draw the line? Today you ask for Ra and Te to be crippled. Lets assume Sega does that. Tomorrow you complain about Bouncer having to much of an impact on your cleartime and next week it's Force. 
All of these p much just asks for the end goal of removing the class system altogether and turning everyone into one class that uses one skill because aslong as there is classes using different skills there will always be objectively worse classes or worse skills that will hurt your MPA cleartime
thorny folio
i still wish fo had some more tangible support
i really think photon flare should increase everyones max pp
i know it encoraches on oe tho
elfin notch
How are Ra and Te being crippled? Especially if they get native DPS buffs
cold basin
when instead you could just eh, stop gambling and use a TMPA when you care so much about if the UQ takes 7 or 8 minutes now
well idk how PP gen on Techter fixes the class lol
thorny folio
but i still wish for this game to have more support options
its wild to me that ppl want less
a game with no supports is like an irl world with no hospitals, ems, hospitality services, trade jobs, etc
cold basin
immo Rubinus problem is not that different classes perform differently in MPA but that he goes in public matchmaking and demands from everyone to play optimal/within his expectations/constraints.
gloomy raft
a game with no supports is like an irl world with no hospitals, ems, hospitality...
You have to cook all your own phood, no one else can cook phor you
cold basin
which like idk, lemme go to a casino and complain I dont hit the jackpot each time
shouldnt have gone to the casino
elfin notch
???
thorny folio
part of me still wishes fo retained low dps but became a true support instead
north widget
in summary game bad balance bad pso3 will save us
thorny folio
early on, ppl kept saying fo was lower dmg bc it would be a support
while i like how it is now, part of me wishes they had been right
elfin notch
it's not about "playing optimally", it's about the MP's DPS being determined by if specific classes are present
thorny folio
ok but how far does that go
playing a class ill suited to the matchup is a dps loss
elfin notch
obviously, certain classes will do better against certain content. But a raw 25% damage mod tied to a certain class goes too far
cold basin
Like idk you play a game of chance, lose the game of chance and instead of stopping to play the game of chance want to rig it in a way that you always win the game of chance
like bruh
thorny folio
i like having support bc it means even when the matchup for you is bad, youre still helping the team by being there
cold basin
thought about that someone who goes in public queue shouldn't have any standards?
anyway I gtg sleep, we got a pso2 day coming up
slender crystal
it's not about "playing optimally", it's about the MP's DPS being determined by ...
Imean honestly I'd argue it really does come more down to the players rather than the classes
slender crystal
Yea the classes makes a difference but the players make a bigger dif
elfin notch
I don't even consider Ranger to be "OP" at all. Just don't gate a large unversal damage modifier behind it.
Techter's is less severe, but it probably doesn't really need to be there really. Deband and Overemp already are helpful support skills.
thorny folio
if the players make a bigger diff then this argument is moot
livid edge
blight doesn't matter if your ra is drooling and holding normals 👍
slender crystal
blight doesn't matter if your ra is drooling and holding normals 👍
Hey I'm doing my best okay 
livid edge
however i think basing arguments around "literally braindead with a barely detectable pulse" level of skills isn't exactly the best idea either
thorny folio
any different from
'we want ribeyes cos he does 30% more than other bos'
or whatever
you get the idea
its always just an issue with efficiency that is self-created
and because you cant handle that issue on your own, you want sega to solve it for you
livid edge
efficiency issues are a game balance issue tho 🤔
thorny folio
yes and no
livid edge
especially when it's spread across all content
thorny folio
as long as any group of players can clear all content its close enough realistically.
and my point is again
removing it entirely is cringe
i wouldnt be opposed to toning it down
but that's not what this discussion is about, at all
livid edge
(not that it's spread across all content, since bringing a ranger to fight nex in ltq was actually a detriment, the one exception to the rule)
thorny folio
honestly did anyone bitch this hard about wingard
we need a wingard or we're inefficient
thorny folio
ok yeah nvm i give up this community is beyond hope
elfin notch
wingard is like 1-3%
slender crystal
Troo buff wingard 
thorny folio
i still want support ex to exist please
slender crystal
#DefinitelyNotBias
unreal pier
just saying in other games 3% is considered a must bring
thorny folio
allow ppl to be more than a warm body in a party ty
elfin notch
Blight is straight up universal 20/25% to everyone
slender crystal
Ra sub
thorny folio
in many cases this isnt as universal as you think
elfin notch
Generally on bosses, yes
slender crystal
15% universal
thorny folio
blight wars wouldnt be a thing if it was universal just saying
the true gain for your dps is never 20 or 25%
its closer to 13-17%
in my experience
livid edge
yes i'm sure blighting gomo's main body is very useful :clueless:
not that you can blight war anymore
elfin notch
But does it really need to be there? When bosses could just be 20% less tanker?
thorny folio
does force need to exist when enemies can just have x% less hp and y% less break meter
delete all classes and reduce boss hp by 100%
problem solved
yes i know this is a strawman
livid edge
blithely nerfing hp without additional consideration would break balance in other ways
thorny folio
but still this is how your argument sounds to my ears
i dont see why blight needs removing
reducing, certainly, you can argue that and i will listen
removing? no.
not unless its brought back on a weapon or EX anyway
letting anyone support, which might actually be ideal
though imma be real at the end of the day this topic will never get anuwhere
slender crystal
But does it really need to be there? When bosses could just be 20% less tanker?
Imean it's just a game mechanic
That's kinda like saying "Do we really need downs when we could just make bosses have more pauses between their attacks / we can weaken them by like 20% so downs aren't necessary"
livid edge
the true gain for your dps is never 20 or 25%
in many cases, it's higher than that, assuming whoever's blighting has any idea what they should be blighting, and other people have any idea how to play the game, turning a spot into a weakpoint enables additional damage increases
slender crystal
It's just to add another layer to the game
thorny folio
full dps nerds will always hate support existing because it feels required to them for efficiency, and support nerds will always hate anyone wanting to remove support because that's how they get enjoyment and roleplaying from the game
livid edge
like the one fight where you'd want to hit another part than whatever's blighted is dalion
thorny folio
in many cases, it's higher than that, assuming whoever's blighting has any idea ...
not really no
at most u get 5% on top but again higher assumes 100% uptime
its never 100% uptime
as for fo its always less than 25% because the 5% is guaranteed for half your dmg
livid edge
a competent ra has no issue upkeeping at least red blight on the vast majority of fights
thorny folio
its not about competency
im not talking organized groups
you can have the best ra in the entire world in your pug, and on enemies with multiple valid targets, youll inherently miss sometimes and other times take a moment to figure out which particular part is blighted, such as solus pods
or hands, even
you will NEVER be at 100%
you can be close but it is never 100%
slender crystal
you will NEVER be at 100%
Addy and the other Ra pros would like to have a word with you
thorny folio
and on average my observed gain hovers between 13 and 18% or so, the lower end being red blight
livid edge
ok but at that point you're also never doing 100% of your damage output as any class using any weapon either
thorny folio
yes but we're talking
about the expected gain to your personal dps from a blight
and its not 20-25%
it never is
thorny folio
Addy and the other Ra pros would like to have a word with you <a:run:13743353788...
again
its impossible unless you coordinate beforehand on order and whatnot
in a pug i need to spend time figuring out where is blighted
solus p3 is like an excellent example
there are 9 valid blight targets
i am not necessarily going to always know which one is blighted
nor am i necessarily always going to attack it, because overkill exists and i wont be risking wasting a nuke on a nearly dead pod
that is one example of many. 100% efficiency is not a thing, and it has nothing to do either with 'nobody is ever 100%' it's its own separate multiplier to efficiency
on the other hand? if a te is in your party and casting s/d normally
it IS 100% uptime
because you ALWAYS have it
livid edge
nope
thorny folio
excluding leaving mars, but a good te will ensure ~98%+ uptime by rebuffing right after you leave mars
livid edge
because the te can forget to shifta
thorny folio
te uptime is much more than ra
ra can forget to blight, i believe the thing we're working with here is if the support plays optimally
livid edge
or if you're in an mpa and the te is in the other party, they're too far from you and you don't get the buff
thorny folio
im not talking about support efficiency here
im talking about your OWN efficiency gained
if a te is in your party and casting s/d normally
yes its less than 100% if theyre in the other party
but thats not what i said
slender crystal
-# Damn my suggestion getting out-downvoted and out-commented on 
livid edge
yeah but it's something important to consider
thorny folio
anyway the argument is just me saying its not a full 20-25% that doesnt mean it isnt huge
not entirely a relevant tangent, tho it is relevant insomuch as comparing ra and te
cold basin
Thing is we went from "300% is to much. Please nerf." to 255% to 60% + Jamming to 20% for Blights.
Now people complain 20% is to much and want it nerfed again.
Lets make it 5%.
What happens next? A year from now people will complain 5% is to much and demand for it to be nerfed.
There is no "toning down" because people won't stop complaining about Blights because it is something they cannot have themselves without either playing Ranger or going the extra mile of social interaction for find one. And for that argument it doesnt matter if Blights is 300% or 0,25% now because people have done much worse to their own equipment for as little as 0,25% more Potency.
So the entire thing is not "Blights is flawed" issue. It's a "I don't like my current situation and want Sega to fix it for me" situation when joining an Alliance or GC that actively builds TMPAs around Classes strengths would have been magnitudes easier than it is to try to defend his argument here.
This stopped being about balance adjustments a long time ago and more about stubborness about not wanting to leave your own comfort zone and yet improving your own situation. And It's both pointless and exhausting to try to argue with this.
thorny folio
yeah but it's something important to consider
true
see i was gonna bring that up right after
and compare all 3 efficiency wise
but now im lazy
i could make an argument also that te is better for fo because the avg ra isnt instantly blighting on break (noted this on aegis especially) while te is 10.25 auto
but thats stretching hairs and im not entirely serious
thorny folio
Thing is we went from "300% is to much. Please nerf." to 255% to 60% + Jamming t...
i kinda agree that its a slippery slope but i have to disagree on some, 300 and 20 is extremely different, 300 is definitely too much. 20 however is fine imo, in most cases
like i think the key is a ra shouldnt ever be equal to 2 people in a 4p content, at bare minimum for balance
25% stays under this threshold i made up
300% is just way too high cos it makes ra add 4 more people per person
unreal pier
Thing is we went from "300% is to much. Please nerf." to 255% to 60% + Jamming t...
i can't speak for everyone but historically I have not complained about 5% buffs (but have complained about a lack of 5% buffs), so I don't feel the slippery slope is that slippery. But I do understand where you're coming from
thorny folio
but i do agree the core of this complaint is ppl not wanting support to exist
bc they dont want to be even 1% reliant no matter how optional on anyone else to clear faster or have a smoother experience
and i understand that view its why icant really handle full trinities because it takes away a lot of player agency and independence which isnt good for power fantasy
but taking ALL of it away goes in the opposite direction with the sme result
takes away a lot of player agency and independence to be their fantasy ironically
also fr if you complained about needing wingard in your mpa you need to sort out your efficiency issues 
since flo mentioned ppl unironically did that
those ppl would no doubt have a heart attack if anyone who didnt eat 10 crisp meats joined their party
unreal pier
noooooo but the .4% potency ahhhh my eyes hides augments
slender crystal
I'm kinda shocked people did that LOL I never heard about that happening outside of when it was a new wep so it obviously came with being a fair bit stronger than other weapons
thorny folio
1.8% for me
yeah i just wonder sometimes
why do ppl get so worked up over 25% like yes its big i am not denying that
but why
burnt sable
Honestly speaking does it even matter when it comes to group content, because being kinda blunt for a second, but when has group content in any PS game ever been remotely balanced? It hasn't
thorny folio
when someone who has near bis aka me is missing 4% from fixa, 3% from deft ACs, about 3% from not using a pb stick regularly, 1.8% from food, and about 3-4% from armor fixas
im literally about 15% below my potential dps
are you now gonna complain i exist
it literally the same thing if you think about it
which is also why i dont consider 25% that huge as to be significantly imbalanced. like yes its a little much
but its not THAT big
unreal pier
it's that in this game content is easy and balance is very slack so we can get away with being inefficient. If they added something hard (for me, not hard for the general population hard for me) at some point it would make a difference
thorny folio
tiny personal adjustments to my own gear leave me nearly that far behind
individually everything i listed is incredibly small
burnt sable
Every class is typically able to do something insane because of aspects which only exist and are applicable to group content and we just roll through things slightly harder. It's why I don't care for Blight or Techter nerfs, and also why I don't care if LRA exists even if the base weapon is good without LRA. They're funny numbers which stack up and can help fill in the blanks for lower skilled players, meanwhile higher skilled player can just completely go crazy with them in parties.
thorny folio
youd notice none of them looking at my potency and whatnot
are we also going to gatekeep subclasses?
livid edge
the only actual "hard" quest we got, ranger wasn't even really useful compared to, say, force (yes, even at the time) or gunner (yeah...)
thorny folio
since whenever i go hu or wa for fun i am losing 5%+ dps
on top
which hey! adds up to 20%!
livid edge
somehow extermination teq was the hardest quest from its release until mdfd
burnt sable
NGS does not require dumb broken shit to clear content, this is really the main difference between it and early PSO2 (literally just see Magatsu runs with and without a Ranger please), it's definitely just something that exists on top of classes which would be able to clear it regardless
thorny folio
for dalion for example its closer to 7%, sometimes 8%
in p1
i have done tests
a subclass giving that much is fine but blight is not?
livid edge
Every class is typically able to do something insane because of aspects which on...
thing is in ngs they're at least seemingly trying to have some sense of balance?
that, or they're creatively bankrupt and can't make anything crazy anymore 😔
thorny folio
anyway my point with this is that this argument is a slippery slope when it comes to efficiency
you will be inefficient
you always will be
burnt sable
thing is in ngs they're at least seemingly trying to have some sense of balance?
That they are, but it doesn't actually tip the scales too much since these numbers are relatively tame
thorny folio
your parties will always be inefficient
accept this or become elitist
it's really that simple
so yes we can reduce blight to 15% if you want, that is a fair enough argument. complaining it exists to begin with because not having it makes your parties slower is what i really take issue with.
burnt sable
ultimately what I am trying to say is these things exist to make up for the lack of player skill, but as a result they allow good players to play even better.
I'll be bringing a Techter and a Ranger to MDFV, why? Because it'll make grinding it a lot easier and lead to consistent runs
thorny folio
also next expansion im gonna be about 20% behind maybe more because cres exists and because im not going ultia for a very long time to save meseta
burnt sable
Quick, consistent, and efficient
thorny folio
are we gonna gatekeep ppl without true abandac S bis now
these differences i mention are not insignificant at all
theres ppl doing 25k dps on dalion while i do 21k
on p1
would you look at that its like not having blight
also im like 18k without te sub lol
te sub exasperated because of orgsys issue mind but even so
like we're talking 30%+ potential gap now in efficiency
and you really getting worked up over 5% and 25%
ok lets actually do math
bc im bored
slender crystal
Aurora no 
thorny folio
fatale 2 vs abandac 5
i only remember my fatale vs attack comparison for pre-radi so ill just use that, fatale 2 is -0.3% from attack 2, making it about 7.7% potency. we'll reduce it to 7.5% to consider radi
abandac is 12.2%
burnt sable
You all need Wix on and 100% uptime on the Blighted part smh
otherwise gtfo my party
thorny folio
floor is trickier but i would estimate it to be like 2% rn (much more post ultia when i dont use ultia for months)
im too lazy to math floor
we'll low ball it 1.5% how about that
burnt sable
I think Vael is actually going to be pretty straightforward to blight anyway so lol
thorny folio
pb stick is 12.52% dmg over non pb stick
pb is 4608 potency every ~90 seconds
this means an extra 577 potency every 90 seconds
wait forgot addon
pb is 5069, so 635 pot every 90s
7.06 pot per second
average fo dps we'll just put at 400 this is ~1.75% gain
kinda handwavey but its close enough
so just those factors - fixa, AC deft, food, and pb stick = 9.79%
orgsys is difficult to calculate because a lot of the time u also arent getting pb every 90s while orgsys makes it so
and then u got burst windows, breaks etc
ill put it at 3%
13.08%
te sub brings that to 20% more or less anyway point being i overstated it a little earlier but it is still a hell of a big diff
wicked saddle
Imo comparing augs, addons, and pb sticks to shifta and blight is not equivalent
cold basin
I mean his entire argument distils down to "I don't like variance in my MPAs" so if we remove one source of variance to satisfy his complains we might as well continue and remove any kind of variance
ironically what Sega does atm with MARS, Cannon etc granting guaranteed 100% Floor and ignoring Pot Augments.
burnt sable
and even they still have variance bc of crit rate
wicked saddle
Isn't his argument ranger makes things too fast as dumb as that sounds lmao
thorny folio
my point was that complaining about blight because of perceived inefficiency would be akin to complaining about players not being 100% efficient themselves
like its a slippery slope not because theyre the same situation but because his argument for why he wants blight removed is because he feels inefficient when there's no blight in the group
slender crystal
Isn't his argument ranger makes things too fast as dumb as that sounds lmao
Technically but it's more from the opposite angle of
"Being without a ranger makes things too slow"
thorny folio
and my point really here is
players not being full bis is also going to add inefficiency to a group
so where do you draw the line
wicked saddle
Where the line was already drawn in the topic of the post
having a ranger vs not having a ranger
thorny folio
my question is why is that important
wicked saddle
I dont agree with it btw
thorny folio
its questioning the initial premise of the post
thats just my argument for doing so
thorny folio
I mean his entire argument distils down to "I don't like variance in my MPAs" so...
you joke but
rubinus has also repeatedly requested to delete crit
wicked saddle
thorny folio
and also remove all fixa except i forgot...attack? or smth?
either way its a fairly common trend in their feedback
slender crystal
rubinus has also repeatedly requested to delete crit
wicked saddle
Either way this is like buying a bucket of icecream with 3 flavors and then complaining it's not just 1 flavor
slender crystal
It better be only mint choco chip or I riot 
cold basin
rubinus has also repeatedly requested to delete crit
Not wanna turn it into bashing or smh too
My impression is just that among all the layers discussed here whenever he does it intentionally or not what it all comes down to is "I can't accomplish my goal without leaving my comfort zone, so I ask Sega to move the goal post into my comfort zone". Because having different classes and strategies and all that are things that are common for the genre (through NGS is even already really forgiving for it). Both the Crit Issue or the "Random queue not plays the classes I want them to play" could be solved by either playing a game like CS:GO or making friends that allow building the strategies he want. 7-8 years ago JP Community wanted to see some very bad stuff happen to me over some nonsense drama and years later even I manage to make friends, join alliances, enter GCs and meet people to build TMPAs with. What could potentially be the thing that stops Rubinus that requires them to request Sega to turn every player entity into a gray blob that does exactly the same so that random matchmaking is deterministic and predictable?
elfin notch
Variance will always be a thing, that does not bother me. I’m simply requesting the rework of an extreme variance factor that imo I feel is redundant. I’m not asking for ppl to play Ra and Te either.
slender crystal
Not wanna turn it into bashing or smh too <:fml:729458323665059840>
My impressi...
Right actually yea bringing all that up-
I feel like suggestions and feedback type stuff where opinions are the heart of the topics do tend to polarize people quite a lot 
as much as people feel different ways about game state / balance / classes / etc- 9 times out of 10 they are fairly chill people that aren't all that hard to get along with / chat to so
Yea as much as we might all disagree with the topic- true always should at least try to keep things respectful / not demonize anyone as much as possible
elfin notch
I don’t like crits because they’re completely out of your control, weren’t a large factor in PSO2c, and require you to literally reset often if you want to hit a goal in ARKS record.
I don’t like different Fixa because they don’t actually change how a weapon plays, and in the case of Unwix and Blastor are the best for certain scenarios, the latter which is just a PB stick. Never mind Abandac and it’s favoring of S augs (not as bad now though at least).
Never mind the fact that gearing itself is about to get pricy
slender crystal
Arguably that's another topic for another place but gearing getting more expensive again is a blessing and a curse imo- it's definitely gonna help put the market in a better place than it is right now
elfin notch
These things don’t ruin the game for me or anything. But do feel they’re ultimately redundant and their absence/reworking/ect would make for an improved experience.
I do wonder how important Ranger and Techter will be for getting consistent Vael clears in the next few weeks. It’s only 4p, and I cleared Solus and Dalion w/o them often, but 25%/37.5% to all players is quite a lot.
unreal pier
it's unlikely they tune it in a way that needs excellent players, blight, shifta, larze, radi and the new augment, so having some of those boxes checked will probably be enough for most people
slender crystal
^ Yea they'll never tune things to require things like that
It's always turned pretty much to average players tho with good gear or the opposite of good players with handout / average gear
wintry monolith
I don’t like crits because they’re completely out of your control, weren’t a lar...
PSO2c ultimately doesn't care about your speed-running feelings because global ran out of the PSO2 Day Donuts and Idola Steaks to give you a slight amount more ATK. New strategies and techniques may come out for optimizing a fight, but you're missing some extra raw ATK anyways so its never as fast as it could've been had you kept those food buffs still around. I would even argue crits are still a fairly important factor in PSO2c as it drives the whole Petal vs Precision Will S-augmenting dilemma, but I guess you can partially throw that away into gearing.
Fixa Blastor is functionally identical to people making CPA sticks in base and having a Trailblazer/Genon Emergency PP battery (or Genon for PB gauge in Endless). Perhaps not as severe, but people still utilized those.
ARKS Record also requires you to reset if the enemy AI doesn't cooperate - crits aren't the only reason for a reset. You love to see it when Dark Lemnas decides to charge their face into a wall or do some other asinine move instead of leaving its face in range to get 
. Its also conveniently ignoring the fact that ARKS Record leads to specific match-ups being favored class-wise (wow do I love blight rounds on Pangolan), particularly since the rankings by class has been relegated to almost exclusively only showing up after a class gets a rework/revamp/refresh/update.
Can we also add Meat (and Crisp) / Alliance Mag / Region Mag to the chopping block? They're lazy attack boosts that can be made redundant by just reducing enemy HP by the corresponding amount as well.
elfin notch
I have actually suggested that Food and Region/Alli Mags be nuked, because let's be honest: They're really just extra loading screens, which is really inconvenient for players with older PCs
The enemy AI thing is pretty annoying. Maybe they could apply a static RNG seed to ARKS Records? Or however it works.
PSO2c definitely had some weird choices with those Bomb Burgers and the like.
fair belfry
I'd keep it intact, both for Blight Rounds and Shifta/Deband, if anything then a slight balancing to make it not AS impactful, giving everyone a global damage buff in general and reducing Blight Rounds to a similar percentage as Shifta/Deband
That aside, it's quite annoying that a lot of rangers tend to put them at the wrong spots, such as on a Dustyl's foot in 2025 as if we're still in 2021 LUL
thorny folio
food is for immersion
id be down to remove the dmg buff from it though, and cut enemy hp accordingly
have it be purely for utility and defense, it might be cool to see what people go for
thorny folio
I'd keep it intact, both for Blight Rounds and Shifta/Deband, if anything then a...
they already removed this ages ago
idk when exactly but we havent had blight giving points for months at least now
also for rng thing no
as much as i dislike rng when record-ing
rng is core to having a fun, replayable experience in a game
rng is what makes enemies feel organic and more real
would be better if they had AI specifically designed to counter you and make you struggle as much as possible
but we're a ways away from that happening
fair belfry
they already removed this ages ago
oooh okay! i have been on hiatus for a little while, like half a year, and last i remembered it was still working that way!
thanks for clarifying! editted my post then :3
fair belfry
id be down to remove the dmg buff from it though, and cut enemy hp accordingly
oooh, i'd like that! make it more about PP/HP preservation, maybe ailment resistance bonus too, and cut enemy hp by about 10% and increase general weakpoint damage by a little bit
i love having some utility personally, so ii like that
mellow sky
In conclusion, bad feedback.
elfin notch
Part of the issue with Blight also is that it can easily be misplaced, especially now that it's apparently not hitscan? Dunno if they changed that.
I am not criticizing players for not using Ra/Te, or for not placing their Blights correctly all the time. Nor that I feel "insufficient" when it's not present.
I just simply think the skill's existence causes more harm than good to the game due to it putting a large portion of the DPS in an often single player's hands, and it's absence making content either take longer or occasionally fail sometimes.
I honestly Ranger and Techter can potentially perform well as classes without it. Ranger even without blight was very strong in PSO1 and early-mid PSO2 even before factoring Blight, so it's not like it needs the skill to perform well. And Techter is pretty strong now in that it probably doesn't need Shifta to stand out. I do think Deband should stay after all.
burnt sable
Part of the issue with Blight also is that it can easily be misplaced, especiall...
only precision blight was hitscan in base (skill ring)
but it's more so a learning curve to the skill in NGS
it should also be said that "strength" isn't what makes a class stand out, it's their abilities and niches
some prefer the simple resource management of Blight to maintain a supportive role, others prefer to give their support through various aspects of their kit like Techter
it also just makes the game feel better to theory craft in regards to random shit
like with Bouncer's declines
all-in-all
there's no issue
livid edge
ranger without blight was strong early-mid pso2
you mean the class that got >20% buffs across the board on ep3 release?
also why only mention "early-mid" when it's just as strong in ep6 content
elfin notch
Without blight. Scions pulled ahead of it later
livid edge
... do a cartwheel and spin on your head right this moment
slender crystal
Part of the issue with Blight also is that it can easily be misplaced, especiall...
Ranger even without blight was very strong in PSO1 and early-mid PSO2
But like mentioned earlier- this isn't about the past this is about the current NGS; there's not much point in pointing at past damages and stuff with something like this because NGS right now isn't what PSO1 / early-mid PSO2 is. There's situations / suggestions where looking towards the past is helpful, but the way that's being done here isn't
Part of the issue with blight also is that it can easily be misplaced
And like others have said earlier; upkeeping and monitoring blight is a layer that makes Ra fun for some / many players *
At this point the conversation is going in circles; I wouldn't mind that if there was some kind of fluctuation in opinion based on what everyone is telling you but if there's absolute refusal to acknowledge / be open minded to how others feel / adjust the suggestion to make it encompass more people's experience (which, no no-one should be forced to change their opinion and that's fine); then there's no point in having this conversation.
onyx cove
Don't really understand the "it's always been this way" arguments, it's never too late to improve the game
elfin notch
Exactly.
slender crystal
Don't really understand the "it's always been this way" arguments, it's never to...
That applies to when something has always been broken / been bad
That doesn't apply when talking about something that people clearly enjoy / value within the game
Just based on all the conversation here- does it look like people hate blight and shifta/deband?
fair belfry
let me give an example.. in WoW, they homogenized almost everything, took the identity of most classes away over time..
at first, there was sth unique in every class in what they do and how they do it, there were many unique buffs, debuffs, passive supports.. i mained shadow priest throughout the history of my time in that MMO.. starting at vanilla, so i have seen it all..
there were man unique things, but over time, they either completely removed them, made them "just for the players themselves" or made it a shared buff with several other classes.. it kinda homogenized not what class you play but just if you are tank, healer or DPS and how much you do, but not what unique bonuses you bring.. and that took a lot of the flavor the game had away.. and it definitely is one of the things people appreciate when playing on a Classic server..
now back to PSO2: why should we do the same? so in the end it doesn't matter what you play bcs all you do is deal damage and nothing else? could also take away the huge down factor bonuses from bouncer, force and such, or the new shockwaves and fields Hunters make upon block/parry/Hunter Physique hit..
no, i think we are fine having those things, that is sth that gives important flavor and feeling to all those classes
unreal pier
let me give an example.. in WoW, they homogenized almost everything, took the id...
and the side of that that’s missing is it let you queue up with randoms for everything and made raid teams significantly easier to assemble, letting people play together faster and more easily while playing the class of their choice…which led to the most popular MMO’s ever were.
its about finding a point where things still feel unique and fun but are not required. This is hard. Right now this game is easy, I don’t think anyone can really argue this, so there’s a lot of room for things to be too strong and no one cares. If they made something hard all of these fun bonus flavour support effects would be needed and assembling parties would stink
elfin notch
I don't think the game needs to be homogenized, but I do think redundant mechanics should be done away with, especially if their existence hinders the experience.
At the end of the day, it's up to SEGA to decide if or if not Blight and Shifta should change or remain as is.