#Unchallengeable disputes
umbral carbon
👋🏽
There are generally three kinds of disputes that are unchallengeable
- payments on the cartes bancaire network
fair venture
Ah found something: https://stripe.com/docs/disputes/how-disputes-work#responding-to-a-dispute
Stripe denotes two types of disputes as unchallengeable and automatically closes them as lost.
Some card networks (such as Cartes Bancaires) require more stringent evidence from the account owner before initiating a dispute, but then restrict the merchant from challenging the dispute after it’s filed.
umbral carbon
- non dispute things on dispute rails like visa RDR
- retrievals you didn’t challenge with evidence (typically Amex or discover)
fair venture
The payment intent in question is: pi_3Kp72VLPuLL9lXqU12c730fp
I'm not quite sure what category this PI would fall under.
umbral carbon
👀
fair venture
It was made with Bank of America. So wondered if this issuer is one of those card networks which are stringent.
umbral carbon
I need to update the docs
fair venture
🙌 thanks, once the docs are updated do you mind linking it to me so we can forward it to our team.
umbral carbon
visa fraud dispute reason code 10.4 is unchallengeable on the smcc network
umbral carbon
🙌 thanks, once the docs are updated do you mind linking it to me so we can forw...
will do
fair venture
SMCC is a Japanese card issuer correct?
umbral carbon
yes
fair venture
10.4 code is:
indicates that the cardholder is claiming that they did not authorize or participate in a card-not-present transaction, and therefore it must be fraudulent
umbral carbon
though I believe it's a cobranding situation, as with cartes bancaires
umbral carbon
10.4 code is:
> indicates that the cardholder is claiming that they did not au...
correct
fair venture
though I believe it's a cobranding situation, as with cartes bancaires
what do we mean by this?
umbral carbon
it's visa's generic card not present fraud code
fair venture
What's the best response I could give my team on this one?
umbral carbon
what do we mean by this?
some networks can be both issuer and card network
umbral carbon
What's the best response I could give my team on this one?
the network does not allow merchants to contest these disputes, so there is no action other than to move on and/or do your normal fraud process (eg denylist card/customer)
umbral carbon
some networks can be both issuer and card network
sorry, this is a little vague and opaque -- the subtleties of network types are not relevant here -- suffice it to say, SMCC is the entity that authorized the charge and is responsible for deciding what is the dispute process
fair venture
So the network decides the what the dispute process is and in this case it decided that it was considered unchallengeable.
umbral carbon
correct
generally speaking, the network decides the "rules of the road", and the issuer decides the outcome if there is a decision to be made
fair venture
is there any other networks that are like this that's worth being aware of?
umbral carbon
some entities (like Amex) play both roles
I'm not 100% sure if SMCC is the issuer of the card, but as the network it is within their remit to say "these disputes are not challengeable"
by "like this" do you mean "issue unchallengable disputes"?
fair venture
Got it. Thanks.
I'll wait for the documentation update and i'll link my team to it.
umbral carbon
👍🏽
fair venture
So just to be clear if any PI is made on the SMCC network and it returns a 10.4 visa fraud code this would result in an unchallengeable dispute?
If you could confirm the above thanks 😄
umbral carbon
So just to be clear if any PI is made on the SMCC network and it returns a 10.4 ...
Yes
fair venture
Thanks.
Suggestion could we update the documentation to highlight the 4 different kinds.
It would be nice to see the different types of unchallengeable disputes.
umbral carbon
so, to circle back around to this: we will be updating the docs shortly to be clearer about unchallengeable disputes, however this case will not be described there.
There is a little history here: this restriction has always been in place with our network partner in JP (ie it happens upstream of us), and previously we allowed folks to submit evidence even though these Visa fraud disputes themselves were unwinnable.
Recently, we changed the UI behavior to match the underlying reality, ie to what you experienced: the dispute was immediately closed as lost. But we actually reversed that fairly quickly and set it back to what it was before: the dispute opens, and you can submit evidence, but you will not win.
This is because we are currently working on removing this restriction we currently have with our network partner, and want to avoid whiplash with merchants by changing the UI behavior.
So the state of the world is that currently you can submit evidence to Visa fraud disputes in JP, but it is not possible to win them, but soon you will be able to win them.