Software Beta for Nanoleaf Essentials Matter

[plain kettle]

Hmm, strange

You’d think the 200 could do it with no worry

[main matrix]

the S200 needs 10W, whereas the S20 needs only 4-7W.. might be an Ethernet limitation? (it only does 100Mbps though not sure on what chip is being used).

not a big deal though; I power mine through a USB powerboard

[craggy plaza]

That looks like a good analysis tool. 😃👍

Do they use open source software?

[plain kettle]

No

It’s a custom fork of openWRT

At least I think the thread stuff is?

[craggy plaza]

Too bad…

[main matrix]

my understanding is openWRT as the base, with their own custom flavour on top

[craggy plaza]

It looks like they OpenThread as a basis.

[plain kettle]

Yeah everyone does

But I mean the actual OS itself is a custom fork of openWRT, with a wrapper for the web GUI (based on the API)

[craggy plaza]

Ok, and OpenWT is not open source software? Don't you have to make the code freely available if you use open source?

[plain kettle]

OpenWRT is, but they use a custom fork of it

And no

The license openWRT use allows companies like GLNET to (with some sort of commission iirc)

[craggy plaza]

Aha, ok, too bad… 😅

Nevertheless, the device looks interesting. But I have a Thread network with 7 Apple TBRs. They all use TREL. I'm not sure, if I want a TBR that can't do TREL, even though that shouldn't be a problem.

[plain kettle]

i dont even think those antennas in the s200 are even connected, i get why they used the same mold as their travel routers, but strange choice non the less

[eternal hill]

i think most of their hardware is not supported in openwrt

thats why they have their custom fork

[plain kettle]

there was a way to flash it back to "normal" openWRT, but not sure if that loophole is closed

[main matrix]

FWIW, the S200 does have a backend UI (LuCI, which is apparently maintained by OpenWRT)

[plain kettle]

all of their routers seem to have LuCI

[main matrix]

it just makes it look more polished

[plain kettle]

oh for sure, they do a good job at it tbh

[main matrix]

Firmware Version OpenWrt 21.02.2 r16495-bf0c965af0 / LuCI openwrt-21.02 branch git-22.347.45520-d30ab74

^ is the version of LuCI currently on the S200

[plain kettle]

current openwrt version is v23.05.3, so they are a few versions behind

[main matrix]

right

[plain kettle]

geez, came out in feb 2022

i guess it doesnt matter for this, but for their routers.....

[feral steeple]

Thanks for the info, figured it was prob related to NL matter

[hidden grove]

Hi guys I have installed this update today to my gu10 lights . This version is defined better than previous one. However still have unresponsive lights even using nanoleaf app and while using HomeKit . Also some of the lights are still flickering when changing colours . I have 12 lights grouped in a single room and clearly see the ones that are not responding . Any advise would be much appreciated .. thanks ..

[finite vale]

Same here

[wraith bear]

Is the right image on otbr via home assistant addon, your not running it on a seperate device right?

[plain kettle]

It’s just not the best

[main matrix]

left image is GL-S200 (separate device), right image is OTBR HA addon

[plain kettle]

You gotta refresh it a few times to get the whole topology

I think Glnet are passively checking the API

[main matrix]

you could refresh it 1000 times and it's still rubbish

[wraith bear]

Wait so you have the rcp directly connected to the home assistant?

[plain kettle]

Yes

You can do that

[wraith bear]

I thought that would only work with skyconnect?

[plain kettle]

It works with any thread based dongle

It’s just the firmware lol

I got some Nordic dongle for mine

[wraith bear]

Hah, i running it on a seperate raspberry pi

[main matrix]

from what I've just learnt over the last day or so though, the GL-S20s completely destroy Thread networks :\

I re-enabled mine (2 of) and within half an hour, all Matter lights were offline

[verbal drift]

damn and I just ordered one!!

[plain kettle]

they havent updated it in a while

[main matrix]

your mileage may vary

[plain kettle]

to be fair, a new firmware may fix it

[main matrix]

in the grand scheme of things, they're not that expensive for what they are

[verbal drift]

valid point

[plain kettle]

it seems to be done for now

unless there is enough issues that prompts them to reinvestigate

[main matrix]

I'd still report using the bug reporter if anything isn't running as it should be

ie. my GU10s sometime drift off to neverland (stop responding)

but doesn't affect the A19s

[verbal drift]

yeah 100%

[main matrix]

🤷‍♂️

[verbal drift]

be nice for NL to confirm what they want from us now

[plain kettle]

i dont think anything.....

[main matrix]

^ that

[verbal drift]

valid

[main matrix]

they released the latest FW we have to prod as it's a hell of an improvement for what it was before

[verbal drift]

yeah thats very true

[main matrix]

if things still break, report it by the normal means (through their CS), or via the bug report here.

if it's something worth chasing, they'll reach out

there's still a few odd issues lying about, but as usual they're not that easy to replicate

all you can really do is report what breaks to NL and go from there

[verbal drift]

Yeah I have heard the CS is not the best.

[plain kettle]

nah, its really really bad

[main matrix]

then you have your answer; report via bug report 🙃

[verbal drift]

well hopefully we wont need them and NL release improvements as they find them or just leave it on .173

[wraith bear]

Does the gli200 have enough processing power to manage a big thread network though?

[plain kettle]

Yes

[wraith bear]

That's what I was worried about in the beginning

[plain kettle]

How big are you considering big tho?

[wraith bear]

Upto 250

[main matrix]

he did mention 200 lights a while ago, lol

[wraith bear]

If the Gli200 is more stable then the otbr im all for it, however I was concerned about the processing power

I've got 2

[main matrix]

I mean, you'd essentially be a guinea pig in this scenario and would be doing testing on the fly

work out what works and what doesn't

[wraith bear]

Yeah

Hahaha

[main matrix]

to be fair, I don't most people have more than 50 NL lights in their network (save for hoppel and a few others)

so it's really just unchartered ground

[wraith bear]

Yeah I figured

[plain kettle]

I mean, while it’s not directly relevant to HA, I’m sure the thread channel in the discord would help you out if you have actual diagnostics for when you get it set up

[wraith bear]

Do we know if openthread is getting regular updates though? I can't find them actively fixing stuff 😫

[plain kettle]

Yeah, they seem to be, just don’t seem to update the SDK too often

Also I think the are in a bit of a limbo with thread 1.4

I mean, everything made by google is in a bit of a development slow down, just look at fuchsia

[wraith bear]

Fuchsia? That's a plant isn't it? 🪴

[plain kettle]

Googles linux based OS

But yes that as well 😛

[wraith bear]

Ohhh chrome os?

[plain kettle]

No

[main matrix]

it's an OS specific to the Nest hubs

[wraith bear]

Ohh

[plain kettle]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuchsia_(operating_system)

[high atlas]

poshy___ has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

[plain kettle]

far out, didnt realise there were so many aussies here

[wraith bear]

Bruh

[plain kettle]

the dude above (not hoppel) is also aussie, along with me

[wraith bear]

Ohhh g'day mate

😂

[plain kettle]

how are you going to source 250 matter/thread devices, i dont even think any local retailers have that many in the whole country

[wraith bear]

Jb hifi

[plain kettle]

you got a buissness account with them?

[wraith bear]

I was thinking to contact nanoleaf directly though I haven't yet

[plain kettle]

yeah.... i would try NL direct, might get better pricing

they use a local distributer in sydney for all of their stuff, ill try to find them

[wraith bear]

Yeah I pitched it to Jb hifi, I am running an not for profit organisation and they seemed to love the idea

[plain kettle]

oh wow!, i assume its a charity?

[wraith bear]

They are coming to see our facility next month

Yeah

[plain kettle]

why matter/thread? and not just normal lights if you dont mind me asking?

[wraith bear]

But definitely will get in contact with nl soon to see if I can get better pricing

It's a 10 acre land, zigbee is good but not good for long range

[main matrix]

I assume the dude above was me 🤣

[plain kettle]

haha yep

[plain kettle]

dope man! will be intresting to see how it turns out!. maybe glnet will do you guys a deal with 10 or so of their SL200's?

[wraith bear]

I feel like matter over thread is more scalable (once it gets fixed lol)

[plain kettle]

for sure

[wraith bear]

Bro they wernt interested one bit

[plain kettle]

huh, really?

didnt even give you better pricing?

[wraith bear]

Yeah, no support from them unfortunately. Although I still ordered 2 from them lol

Nope

[plain kettle]

i mean, im glad to see JB willing to help you guys out

[wraith bear]

Jb has been helpful so far, I managed to get the 4 pack nanoleaf downlights for 155ish

That was just 1 order to see if everything worked

[plain kettle]

oh yeah, its 180 retail, not a bad discount

[wraith bear]

But yeah I'm definitely keen to scale up soon, I think once the issues resolve here and home assistant, we will be ready by then

[main matrix]

in a cruel twist of irony, they're on sale for $143 at the moment 🙃

but that's probably Easter sales etc

[wraith bear]

Hah? Damn

Hahahab

Maybe I should grab a few more 🤔

[plain kettle]

its on backorder tho

atleast the 4 pack is

[main matrix]

true, but for the price of the sale, buy 5 packs, pay for 4

[wraith bear]

As long as I can add to cart lol

Ohh datum the Eve door sensors are also on sale

Dayum*

[plain kettle]

wow, thats a first, i only ever saw the thread eve stuff on sale

[main matrix]

welcome to Easter sales

[wraith bear]

Hahaha

[main matrix]

this may have been mentioned in the past, but I don't get the marketing here:

Max bulbs paired via Thread - Unlimited. Performance may decrease in large networks of 20+ devices.

[wraith bear]

So that's like 35 bucks a light, that's cheap

[main matrix]

unlimited but might be rubbish above 20 lights... quite the oxymoron

that said @wraith bear , Officeworks also have 2 packs for $77 each (also on special), and not on backorder (for most VIC stores). also on sale, so... depends how quickly you want to test 🤷‍♂️

[wraith bear]

Not worried about the time

[plain kettle]

JB also seem to have the 2 pack on sale atm, and it has local stock (atleast in adelaide)

[wraith bear]

My main concern at the moment is that everything works, and ofcousre looking at the overall budget

[main matrix]

yeah, at full retail 250 x $45 a light is.... spendy

[wraith bear]

Yep

[plain kettle]

to be fair, if anything goes wrong with any of them. JB have a really good return warrenty

[wraith bear]

Yeah they will look after me I know that for sure

Though, I'm also keen on reaching out to nl directly, not sure how to. The generic emails won't do any good I think

[main matrix]

sounds like a Paul or Nathan query

they might not be able to help directly, but might be able to point you in the right direction

[wraith bear]

Yeah, I just need to correct forum to pitch pretty much

@boreal surge @wild oracle is there any contact that I could reach out to directly?

Hahahaha

[boreal surge]

DM me? This thread is a bit cluttered, I'm not following.

[plain kettle]

Too easy 👍

[feral steeple]

And me, but live in London UK now haha

[green frost]

I will never understand why this system was designed to have too many routers. It's overly complicated for no other reason than it was allowed to happen.

[main matrix]

not sure I follow?

[plain kettle]

Huh?

Zigbee and zwave is no different

[main matrix]

if anything zwave is worse as the frequency it uses changes per country

[plain kettle]

Yup, have seen many networks made up of 90%+ “routers”

[green frost]

Zigbee and Z-Wave have established routes between devices; not every device is a router.

[plain kettle]

That isn’t the case here either? Battery powered = end device, mains powered but no wifi = router, mains powered w/ wifi/eth is a border router

And only one of them is the “leader”

[green frost]

There is no need for every device to connect to every other device. That defeats the entire purpose of having routes.

[main matrix]

well, you're using the wrong forum to make those notions evident. 🤷‍♂️

[plain kettle]

someone clearly likes to talk for the sake of it

clearly google has no idea how a mesh works 🙈

https://www.threadgroup.org/What-is-Thread/Thread-Benefits#Convergence-Coexistence

Thread is a low-power and low-latency wireless mesh networking protocol

reading can be hard for some people

[main matrix]

I wasn't going to be quite so abrasive, but yes.

[plain kettle]

wait till he finds out about trel 😱🙈

[green frost]

Google is a big part of the problem. Google has never been able to do a single thing simple. And Google is only one small part of Thread. There are many members involved in developing this and each party wants their ideas put in the spec. That's the biggest reason for the bloat. Thread does not solve the problem. It has actually made the problems worse.

[plain kettle]

ah yes, blame thread

yet homekit over thread has been working for years..... nice

"bloat" lol

[green frost]

Blame Thread for being overly complicated? Damn right I do. If it wasn't overly complicated then there wouldn't as many issues as vendors are having.

[plain kettle]

you understand, the issue here is with silicon labs?

the root of the issues with nanoleafs implementation is the MG24 SOC and its terrible library (in matter 1.1)

siliconlabs wasnt even adhearing to many of any of diagnostic cluster requierments

and that caused issues in larger setups, like most of the people here, where its pushing a large amount of traffic (for thread bulbs) over multi admin

you are confusing matter, and thread. they are not the same thing

one is a transport protcool, the other is a connectivity protocol

would have the same issues with matter over wifi if they had the same lacking chips in them

[green frost]

I understand the issues and I understand the mechanics. This isn't my first rodeo. I also understand the problems developing hardware of an ever changing specification.

[plain kettle]

so then stop whinging about thread

go and complain to the thread group

not here.

[green frost]

You're a bossy little child.

[opal sparrow]

note that even if every device in the thread network is a "router" that doesn't mean it's actually currently involved in repeating packets

the actual routes used to reach specific devices will be decided based on which of the available/possible routes seems best.

in a mesh setup like this, having more routers/links can actually help reduce network traffic, since it means devices can send data directly to other devices within range instead of having to relay through a router device.

[bitter compass]

Are we on our own in here now?

[plain kettle]

yep....

[bitter compass]

Just want to report that 2 days ago, the Light Strip went unavailable in Home Assistant and Google after over a week of being stable. When I checked the nanoleaf app - it has fallen back to Bluetooth and refused to connect to Thread. Turning it off for 30 seconds and back on it immediately reconnected to thread. No other Nanoleaf lights have had any problems, or any of the other Matter devices. JUST the light strip.

(I'm glad I resisted (but only just - I was hovering over the checkout button for a good 48 hours) the temptation to grab a second light strip from Amazon during the spring deal - but it's a shame that it's not quite stable enough to justify buying more)

[plain kettle]

anything in the HA logs?

[bitter compass]

Didn't bother to check to be honest, just wanted my light to work. And since the nanoleaf app was reporting that it wasn't even connected to Thread - I'd imagine all Home Assistant logs would be saying would be timeout trying to resolve mDNS

Popped back in Home Assistant about 10 seconds after power cycling the light

[green frost]

No. Though they don't comment, the Nanoleaf team reads every message and will take note of actual bug reports.

If one installs the beta code then they need the ability to debug the Matter network and report the issues appropriately.

[bitter compass]

technically it is no longer beta since they promoted it to stable

[plain kettle]

Just keep a track of resub errors, I have a feeling it might have to do more with the matter server now than Nanoleaf

You on the beta of the matter server?

[bitter compass]

No that's one beta I am not running at the moment - because a few months or so ago when running the beta it was consuming ridiculous amounts of RAM, and not a single matter device, including the WiFi ones were ever resolved. So I switched back to stable. I might give beta another go if you think it's worth it now

[plain kettle]

Yeah… see how that goes, I know a bunch of fixes were made recently

[bitter compass]

I'll maybe wait until after Wednesday because you know - Release Day 🥳

[green frost]

There are so many variables that it is difficult to know where the issues exists. Which hardware device is at fault, which firmware is at fault and which software is at fault.

[feral steeple]

I regularly have gu10's going to a wrong colour or doing the flash to something else when it turns on

[plain kettle]

Hmm, you getting resub errors before that happens?

[steel hemlock]

Good day everyone. Long time no see. 😉
Using the current firmware, I am having the following issue since yesterday:
For some reasons both strips went offline. After waiting over an hour and even power cycling them, they were still offline. Because of that, I reset them. Now, I am not able to pair them anymore with Apple home even though I restarted my complete eco system.

[craggy plaza]

Can you pair and control them with the Nanoleaf app?

[steel hemlock]

Let me give it a try.

The pairing in the Nanoleaf app works only via Bluetooth.
During the pairing, the Nanoleaf app is trying to connect the strip to the thread network but is failing.

In the Nanoleaf app under "my devices" I can see my thread network but I am not able to manually connect the strips to the threat network.

Other devices (not from Nanoleaf) are successful connected to the thread network.

[steep iris]

same happenening to me too

[wraith bear]

Hey guys, do we know what's on the agenda for nanoleaf atm? Like what are the other known issues that are currently been worked on? Just curious

Cheers 😄

[green frost]

If an issue is known to the developers it is being worked on.

[shy mason]

could you solve the issue? i have set up all the bulb in the ios app and get many of this "setup" buttons

[manic plover]

Hi, how's your experience on 3.6.170 long term? All my lights gradually went offline, at the moment 3-5 out of 50+ are available. I'm wondering if it's something on my end.

[craggy plaza]

All my 49 Matter over Thread devices (33 EVE devices and my 16 Nanoleaf bulbs) are available in Apple Home and Home Assistant. Sometimes I see that some of them become unavailable for some seconds to minutes. But they always get available by themselves. My Home Assistant log file is really quiet. Since this update I didn’t power cycle any of my bulbs. This firmware is awesome. 👏😎

[stark crystal]

I'm on 3.6.173 firmware, I own 6 bulbs and use Google Home (Nest Hub) + Home Assistant SkyConnect. On previous firmwares I've had constant connection issues but ever since this firmware update everything is working great for me.

Well actually there are some brief delays when turning on/off or changing colors. But no disconnects.

[manic plover]

That sounds good. I power cycled mine and they came back online relatively quickly.

[stark crystal]

That's the other thing I like about this firmware. It used to take multiple minutes (or sometimes even hours) for bulbs to re-connect after turning on. Now it's nearly instant. As it should be.

[frozen crystal]

I think that I have experienced something similar. It affected some of the other beta firmwares too

[frozen crystal]

I had to press on Setup each time and use the matter codes which I had stuck onto a big sheet of paper

[opal sparrow]

at the moment, i just recommend avoiding doing long transitions on multiple bulbs via matter - the bulbs generate a lot of thread traffic while the transition is running, which could cause availability issues if you have more than just a couple devices :/

[green frost]

That has to be the best statement of advice I have every seen about Thread. It's my Number One complaint about thread and all its routers (repeaters) that flood the 2.4 gHz radio band, which is already filled with noise.

[opal sparrow]

I think the amount of traffic generated during transitions is a firmware issue, tbh. Tho it's also partly a Matter spec issue. The spec recommends sending updates really often, and it looks like the Nanoleaf devices might be sending updates even when they have no changes to report.

[green frost]

I can't comment on that but I feel you may be correct. A long time ago, I borrowed a spectrum analyzer to track an issues and while I had it, I looked looked at all the noise and data that around my house. There is so msuch noise that, if yoiu had a roll over filter, you could hide data in there that only the receiving party would know it exists.

The issue I found showed up but it took a frequency selective voltmeter to determine that it was a very old microwave oven causing the issue. Those old magnatrons go bad and mess up everyting, and it was almost 200 feet away in a crowded neighborhood. It took me three weeks to find the exact house.

[vital stump]

In a point where I can’t add lights again. Last time this happened I had to reset everything in home and readd all my lights and automation, but I’d really prefer to not. Can’t add via Apple home nor Nanoleaf.

[plain kettle]

is it already in a ecosystem?

[vital stump]

New out of box.

Did factory reset too

[plain kettle]

the code on the device only works for the first pair, then you have to get the pairing codes after

you have a flat network? no vlans or mdns reflectors?

[vital stump]

Possible it was added and returned via Amazon I suppose?

[plain kettle]

i mean, try another facotry reset then use the code on the device

to pair it to apple home

you got a thread border router and all that?

[vital stump]

Yeah Apple HomePod and about 15 other essentials lights on it right now

Just wanted to add one more lamp 🫠

[plain kettle]

huh right

[vital stump]

Same after another reset and entering code manually

[tired cloak]

i have 3 GU10 on 3.6.173 and they are very reliable right now. They are connected to Apple Home via a HomePod mini and also to HomeAssistant. The only "problem" i have is they are not switching simultaneously neither on/off nor switching color. Is this "normal"?

[opal sparrow]

there's no use of 'group' commands right now, so integrations are sending separate commands to each bulb when performing actions. These commands will usually be in very quick succession (so "close enough" to simultaneous), but if there's congestion or interference on the thread network then the later commands can get delayed or the thread border router might have to retry sending some packets.

[green frost]

Are you stating that you can't add it back to the Nanoleaf application after a hard reset?

[vital stump]

Correct, can't add a new bulb more accurately. I have 15 existing essentials that have been running for a couple months now. Tried two separate bulbs from the pack. This happened to me before a few months ago, and I had to go back and reset every bulb in the house and delete everything in apple home, and then it would work.

[green frost]

That seems like a bug in the firmware that you should report.

[vital stump]

Ok, will open another ticket about this 🤞 Can't even add them via nanoleaf right now to upgrade the firmware sadly.

[green frost]

Please do not reset the network. I will ping the powers that be and ask that they look at this.

[craggy plaza]

Did you try to reboot all your Apple Home Hubs / Thread Border Routers? If that didn’t work, did you already try to remove them all from current?

If not, do the following:

1. Remove all your Apple Home Hubs from current
2. Wait until Apple Home app says, that it can’t reach any Home Hub (and the iOS apps ’Flame‘ or ‘Discovery‘ do not show any Matter entries anymore)
3. Power up your preferred Home Hub (maybe you have a hardwired AppleTV 4K with a Thread Radio)
4. Wait until Apple Home doesn’t show the message anymore
5. Power up all your other Apple TVs/HomePods
6. Wait until the meshing procedure succeeds and all devices/bulbs are available in Apple Home
7. Try to pair your new bulb again (Pair it to Apple Home first, after that you can pair it with the Nanoleaf app)

Good luck!

[vital stump]

After letting it sit overnight it now joins via Bluetooth but fails the thread network side (this is the same thing that happened last time)

Ticket opened

[green frost]

This is a situation that Nanoleaf needs to take into account. Hopefully there is a solution.

[vital stump]

is 24 business hours a fancy way to say 3 business days 🤔

[green frost]

I hope it is sooner.

[vital stump]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16V4h53cDlld4O7TdWXb-uaQn0GS__Xmp/view?usp=drivesdk

The one with the up to date (.173) firmware does the same.

[compact jay]

Having the exact same issue. I have an older HomeKit a19 bulb that works flawlessly over thread (using ATV as border router). My brand new matter a19s (2 brand new bulbs) will pair via Bluetooth in the Nanoleaf app, but they will not connect to the thread network and fail to pair in the home app. The new bulbs are also running the current firmware (.173).

[brazen canyon]

So they execute a lot of commands for step changes instead of running a transition action?

😵‍💫

[opal sparrow]

no, it's not that they're running a lot of commands - what happens is the matter controller does a "subscription" where it asks the device to send updates whenever something changes

and during a transition, the brightness or color is constantly changing

so in a way this is neat - it means that the sliders in home assistant will animate as the transition happens - but if you're doing, say, a brightness change of 1% over 60 seconds, it shouldn't be sending updates several times per second while that transition is running.

[vital stump]

They're encouraging a reboot, which makes sense but you mentioned wanting to keep it in a broken state, should I reboot? (Also I suspect this won't help as it didn't last time)

[plain kettle]

try rebooting

[craggy plaza]

Try it that way:

#1184371187464290344 message

[vital stump]

No luck.

[plain kettle]

when it was connected to bluetooth, did you update the bulb?

[vital stump]

Yes

[plain kettle]

i wonder if that bulb is stored in apple keychain, hence why you cant add it.

lemme work out how you look

https://support.apple.com/en-au/102135#:~:text=Paired Matter accessories are synced,end-to-end encrypted.

[vital stump]

It fails very fast which is what’s weird

The “network not found” is probably a larger exception handler and not accurate

[plain kettle]

see if the device shows up in the keychain, if so remove it. factory reset the device and try it

[vital stump]

Checked every entry and none match the serial number listed in Nanoleaf

Not a great UI Apple 🫠

[plain kettle]

yeah, its super clunky thats for sure

[green frost]

A reboot is fine. Go ahead if you haven't.

[vital stump]

Have, no luck 😦

[plain kettle]

Hmm, strange. Are you able to get it to show Bluetooth on the Nanoleaf app?

Coz that’s stupid strange how it’s not hooking onto your thread network, unless you just have it too far away?

[feral steeple]

Have great connection uptime with the current beta for my 24 gu10's, but consistently have some not updating to the right colour or brightness. Usually 1-3 out of 24 daily having the problem. They show the right setting, but the light is hte wrong colour or brightness until its changed again.

@remote goblet Not sure if there is anything that may be useful for you, but I am up to 3 GU10's which the light has just stopped working on. Light is connected and responds correctly, shows its on and shows correct colour etc, but zero output from the actual hardware.

[remote goblet]

@boreal surge

[feral steeple]

Sorry 😛

[vital stump]

Shows fine here 🤷‍♂️ I don’t get it either. Trying to connect it in app fails too

[green frost]

Are you using Nanoleaf Border Routers?

[vital stump]

Negative, just an apple homepod mini

It's about 12 feet from the homepod and 4 feet from another bulb

[green frost]

Then there is a very slight possibility that this may be an Apple issue. That's up to Nanoleaf to decide and deal with if it is. @mystic light @void pulsar Are you following this thread?

[shell vigil]

I have this too, I think it was already reported .. I have 2 that died completely but shows they are functioning well, I am not sure if you have the flickering issue, this happened with the bulbs that are flickering on my side

[feral steeple]

I have the flickering too and they come up to a different colour most of the time. But not sure if they are the same bulbs. Think its random.

For any of the HA users out there. I updated to OTBR 2.5.1 and Matter 5.5.1 today and all the nanoleaf's came back online and didnt have any dramas. This is a refreshing change to the last 3 months of being scared to even reboot HA haha 😄

[feral steeple]

@boreal surge here is some more weird stuff for you.
1 light having a heart attack.
Another that is just completely wrong colour. The 2 lights are set to the same colour and one is showing up red. Should be there same as the other light closer to me.

https://productivuspte-my.sharepoint.com/:v:/g/personal/leon_productivus_co/ESHmaMe0guRHirY13wbyG74ByyaiCcHLueAoRZ6xdMMGdA?e=vK3lah

The one that was red came back good a little while later turning it off an on :S

[boreal surge]

Can you DM me some details?

[green frost]

@shell vigil @feral steeple @vital stump Please state the Thread Border Router(s) you are using, especially if Apple is involved.

[vital stump]

Apple Homepod Mini - MY5H2LL/A

[feral steeple]

Otbr with sky connect in ha

[compact jay]

Having same issue. I’m using an Apple TV if this helps at all.

[shell vigil]

Apple TV.. I had HomePod mini which when it was installed I faced difficulties with connecting to thread network , I removed it and everything connected instantly,

[shell vigil]

Had this before

[green frost]

This is what I understand. You have a Skylight and, I guess ha is, Home Assistant to control the lights. I don't know what Otbr is.

[craggy plaza]

He has a SkyConnect, not a Skylight. SkyConnect is a USB Thread and ZigBee dongle. He uses the OTBR (Open Thread Border Router) addon for HA. Yes, HA is Home Assistant. 😉

[plain kettle]

Haha yep

[green frost]

Like everyone is supposed know that. People need to step up and be precise when giving details. Especially those that state they have the 'latest version.' That is totally useless and ridiculous. So many times, it has been proven wrong that they didn't have the latest version.

[craggy plaza]

I also had this issue twice. I have 49 Matter over Thread devices (33 EVE devices and 16 Nanoleaf bulbs) paired to Apple Home and Home Assistant (Multi Admin). A lot of devices became unavailable in Apple Home and HA. In Apple Home it looked like it was remeshing, but it never stopped.

I have 2 hardwired AppleTV 4K 3rd Gen, 4 HomePod Minis and one HomePod v2.

I removed my 7 Apple Home Hubs / TBRs from from current, until the message ’Can’t reach any Home Hub’ came up in Apple Home and powered them all up again. One of my AppleTVs was the active Hub, but it didn’t stop the meshing procedure after hours. So I removed them again from current. But this time I only powered up the 2 AppleTVs. Meshing took about half an hour to complete. After that I powered up my HomePods and everything is fine. In both case I had a power outage for some minutes.

I am unsure, if this is related to Nanoleaf, EVE, Apple or Home Assistant. Everything is up-to-date.

[green frost]

What is an EVE device?

[plain kettle]

Another vendor

https://www.evehome.com/en

[green frost]

"A lot of devices became unavailable in Apple Home and HA"
Does that translate to EVE and Nanoleaf?

[plain kettle]

@craggy plaza you run beta firmware on your tv/homepods?

[craggy plaza]

Most people here know what they/we are talking about. A lot of Home Assistant users here. When you do not know EVE, you missed something big. 😉

[plain kettle]

TRUEEE 🤣

[craggy plaza]

No, everything is on the stable branch. Apple OS17.4.x

[green frost]

I don't have ANY Apple products and I have not run Home Aasistant in years.

[plain kettle]

Yeah all good, heard Apple bumped thread firmware version in the beta to a newer build, so just checking it wasn’t in relation to that

[green frost]

Please tell me what "A lot of devices became unavailable in Apple Home and HA" includes.

[plain kettle]

mDNS errors @craggy plaza ?

[green frost]

mDNS can be as finicky as a heard of cats. When it works, it works great, but sometimes the networks burps and boom.

[plain kettle]

Was talking about the errors in HA logs, not talking about it In general

[craggy plaza]

The last time I looked at my HA log file it was really clean. I do not have much time for analysis at the moment.

[plain kettle]

MDNS errors mean the device cant be reached at all

[plain kettle]

Yeah all good

Most of my devices went down for a few hours after I installed matter server 5.5.1. Was super weird

[craggy plaza]

I mean, with the latest changes, where Marcel and Stefan gave us the possibility to see the node ids in the Matter server log, I found some (2 or 3) devices that disturbed my Thread network. But since I resetted them to factory defaults and re-added them, they are quiet.

[plain kettle]

Huh right

[craggy plaza]

Ok, no, for me everything was fine after the 5.5.1 update.

[craggy plaza]

I have round about 100 devices in Apple Home and Home Assistant. 49 of them are Matter over Thread paired to AH (Apple Home) and HA (Home Assistant). I never have issues with my WiFi- and Ethernet devices. These devices aren’t native Apple HomeKit or Matter devices. They are paired with HA and from there bridged to AH.

When I had this issue in my Thread network twice, 30 to 40 devices/bulbs of my 49 Matter over Thread devices were switching between available and unavailable in HA/AH. In Apple Home you can see the unavailable devices in an overview. There you can observe how devices get available/unavailable. It looked like they were in a meshing process. But I can’t say for sure, because Apple has no log for this.

[green frost]

So, the devices were Nanoleaf and not EVE.

[craggy plaza]

No, EVE devices and Nanoleaf bulbs were constantly getting available and unavailable again. Next time I will create a screen record.

[green frost]

Some of the reports are sounding less likely to be Nanoleaf issues.

[craggy plaza]

Are you talking about the issue I described? No, as I already said, I don’t know who triggers it. I only had this issue twice. Otherwise everything is perfect. No Nanoleaf bulb or EVE device became unavailable for more than some minutes. They always get available by themself. I do not have any flickering issue with my bulbs, no wrong colors. I have to say, that I nearly never play with the colors.

[green frost]

That information is very helpful. There are issues and it is important to find them regardless of where they are.

[craggy plaza]

I have one glowing bulb, described it here with photos:

#1184371187464290344 message

But I am not alone:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Nanoleaf/comments/1bogdic/essentials_bulb_glow_when_off/

Maybe it a hardware issue. I didn’t reset the bulb for testing purposes. I do not have much time at the moment.

@boreal surge Are you aware of this issue?

[green frost]

That one is likely a Nanoleaf issue. I don't see how it can't be.

[feral steeple]

It seems I can get the nanoleaf bulbs to do their weird flickering to different colours when using the adaptive lighting addon in home assistant.
When letting it just adapt them normally, I will have a random set of bulbs that will continuously flicker between different colours. Seems to be an amplified version of when they flicker on to a different colour that we have been trying to get fixed for months now.
But instead of just going on and to a different colour, it flickers between lots of colours. Can consistently replicate it with adaptive lighting and only stops when I tell adaptive lighting to only adjust once during light turn on.
Hopefully will help get closer to finalising the flickering issue in the firmware

[eternal hill]

He has a point. If you aren't precise in your error description, you make assumptions and the person reading the description makes assumptions and they might not be the same.

[opal sparrow]

@craggy plaza There was one beta firmware that had an issue where the bulbs would sometimes stay lit dimly when turned off via matter, but that was fixed before the latest release was pushed to stable…

[craggy plaza]

Ok, good to know. But my bulbs are all on the latest firmware 3.6.173. So, it’s not or at least not completely solved. Reset to factory defaults doesn’t work, when you look at the posts on Reddit. But I didn’t test it myself.

[vital stump]

Things seem to be moving the wrong way 😅

[undone spire]

Hi I'm the person who made the Reddit post about the 2 glowing bulbs. They came from a 3 pack. Noticed it before the update and the behaviour still continued after the update. Resetting the bulbs does nothing and as I mentioned in my reply changing to different fixtures in different rooms does not solve it, so it's definitely an issue with the bulbs themselves.
Super hard to notice the behaviour because it has to be pitch black and you have to be looking directly at the bulb or have it close to something to bounce the glow off it.
Never noticed the issue before because I previously had them in desk lamps pointing towards the ceiling before I bought some of the downlights.
Would be great to get an admins response since thus far they have ghosted my post.

[feral steeple]

Is there some way we can configure the bulbs so if they lose power and get turned back on they go back to full brightness as default?

[vital stump]

A friend of mine that works for apple happens to be in town today and opened an internal ticket on this, should be entertaining

[opal sparrow]

nanoleaf implements the StartUpCurrentLevel attribute on the LevelControl cluster which should allow configuring that, but I haven't tested it and I don't know if they properly implemented it.

And as far as I know, there's no matter controllers (other than chip-tool) that let you set that attribute anyways :/

(I have tested the OnOffTransitionTime attribute, and I know that one isn't implemented properly)

[feral steeple]

Still seems to be a big issue with traffic delays to the lights. If I walk through 3 rooms while they are off. The last room (8 bulbs in each room) takes about 5-6 seconds until they turn on.

[boreal surge]

First I'm hearing of it, will talk to the team today and classify.

[eternal hill]

i have noticed that problem with one GU10 bulb(at least i think so). That was some months ago.

[eternal hill]

What platform are you using? Matter groups should improve this a lot.

[craggy plaza]

Do we already have these Matter groups in any ecosystem?

[feral steeple]

Home assistant.
Hopefully matter groups will be out soon to help that. Im guessing it just comes down to the traffic and we already knew NL was noisy for the traffic.

[green frost]

Do Matter groups matter? Does it matter how the Matter groups are controlled? (don't hit me.)

[feral steeple]

😛 If its going to make a lot less traffic and fix delays... ill say yes. but i dont know in depth about matter really

[green frost]

At this point, I'd pay extra for that.

[eternal hill]

its one multicast package instead of a package to every device for commands

[green frost]

That is as it should be. That is the same way it works for the WiFi devices.

[eternal hill]

only if you use groups with matter

[green frost]

Ah, I understand. Now you have me wondering is that music syncing application is flooding the network with thousands of mDNS packets. For some, it may be better to completely remove Nanoleaf from the main network.

I have some devices that constantly send data so I moved them to a network created by an RPi and I saw a decrease in the amount of work required on devices attached to my main network. WiFi bandwidth is still going to be an issue as more and more devices crowd an ever increasing 2.4 gHz space. Well, not my issue to solve. 🙂

[eternal hill]

i have read that unifi in some cases duplicates mdns packets, maybe thats the problem here?

[green frost]

That would be possible but I'm not sure why that would happen. UniFi is the choice I mads for my next network. I hope that is a wise choice.

[eternal hill]

if you use sonos or matter it might not be

[green frost]

I don't use Sonos but it matters that I use Matter on matters with my Matter network.

[eternal hill]

I had problems where my devices would not come online again until I power cycled my UniFi switch. (Had everything else powered off at the same time before)

This was for both Apple home and HomeAssistant

And the main matter maintainer in HomeAssistant swapped to tplink omada because of problems with UniFi

Would like to switch to something else too, but I haven’t found anything that fits

[green frost]

I have noticed that a lot of users are indicating issues concerning Apple, and a few with Home Assistant. I have not seen such issues on my system.

[plain kettle]

Every system is unique with settings/config, you might be running unmanaged switches while the next person having issues is running managed ones

[plain kettle]

I mean sure? But at the end of the day it’s just mDNS and LLA

[craggy plaza]

I have both. With Sonos I never had an issue. But all my Sonos are connected via WiFi. I had 10 Sonos Speakers for years. But I replaced 4 for of them With HomePod Minis to have more Thread Border Routers.

mDNS is also not an issue for me with Matter. At least I think so. Everything works as expected, even though some of my Matter over Thread Nanoleaf bulbs and EVE devices loose connection for some seconds to some minutes, one or two devices/bulbs per day. But I didn’t have to power cycle any of my devices/bulbs since the latest Nanoleaf firmware 3.6.173. Sometimes I also see short unavailabilities when switching 3 bulbs on/off at a time. But that’s the reason why we need Matter groups. 😃

However… The devices become available in Home Assistant very fast after such an unavailability. My wife is quiet since that Nanoleaf firmware update. 😄

My Unifi network:

• UDM-SE
• 1 USW-Aggregation
• 1 USW-Enterprise-24-PoE
• 1 USW-Lite-8-PoE
• 4 U7-Pro
• 2 U6-Pro

[green frost]

Get an application that listens for mDNS packers. You'll see a lot of crap.

One thing that confusions me is those that report mDNS errors. While that is possible it is rare. Devices advertise as programmed. Why would there be errors?

[plain kettle]

You need to use home assistant….. these errors are from chip-tool

[craggy plaza]

I am already using apps like Flame or Discovery for iOS and avahi-browse on Linux. I can’t see any crap. You are the one who wants accurate information. What exactly do you mean by crap? 😉

[craggy plaza]

Maybe I don't know where to look to find this crap. But here the entries look like what mDNS typically looks like.

[green frost]

I have a lot of devices that spit out data every few seconds.

[plain kettle]

how is that "crap"?

[plain kettle]

i know what it is

but how is mdns crap

[plain kettle]

Because the chip tool is not exposed in any other admin

HA is the only “interface” which you can currently access the chip-tools debugging

You can obviously compile it yourself (which is what I do for silicon labs stuff), but in terms of not compiling, yes it is

Or what other one lets you?

Apple, google and Amazon sure as hell don’t

I didn’t say voting

You don’t know what I’m talking about by chip-tools

I don’t care how long you have been doing it

Geez, Americans and wanting to see validity by flexing….

Clearly, hence why you brought how long you have been doing it into the conversation 🙄

I don’t care how much you know

[haughty grove]

Wondering as well (NL here 👋). Did you get a response from nanoleaf?

[feral steeple]

@boreal surge Should I log a ticket with support for the few globes which the light has stopped working in?

[boreal surge]

Yes please, and DM me the ticket number if you don't mind

[boreal surge]

@haughty grove @plain kettle can you DM me your email addresses? You should have received an invitation email by now.

[craggy plaza]

Hi, today one of my bulbs was unavailable in Apple Home, Home Assistant and also unreachable in the Nanoleaf app. After 4 hours of unrechability I power cycled the bulb and it came back immediately. This was the first time that something like this happened after the update to 3.6.173. All other 48 Matter over Thread bulbs/devices are working fine.

[plain kettle]

Nah all good mate, got an invite and then a acceptance email 😆

[eternal hill]

Mine ended under promotions in Gmail fyi

[frozen crystal]

I occasionally see this too

[green frost]

I know there are some other issues but it seems 90% of the probles with bulbs concern Apple.

[undone spire]

Agreed. Recently had to change to a second hand iPhone. Some bulbs show as unavailable in the iOS app but using the Android app they are perfectly fine showing available. iOS as a whole and how it handles the smart home just seems to be a nightmare.

[plain kettle]

as in on the nanoleaf app?

[undone spire]

Yep. The iPhone nanoleaf app will show they aren't connected to thread and are unavailable, the Android phone right next to it with the nanoleaf app show's everything is fine and connected.
I seriously don't understand peoples obsession with iPhones, there capability is so limited... Drives me up the wall when I go to do something only to find out you can't on iOS or have to jump through hoops to do it.

[plain kettle]

unavailable? or connected to bluetooth

and it sounds like your thread networks are not merged....

[undone spire]

Bluetooth turned off, some bulbs show up as unreachable while others show up as normal and it's not all the time just periodically. I'd imagine if it was something to do with merging then it would be all the time and be with all the bulbs not just randomly?

[plain kettle]

thats why it cant connect sherlock, you need BLE to establish a connection initally

all on the newest firmware?

[undone spire]

Why would you need Bluetooth to establish a connection? They are connected to the thread network via Google hub gen 2. Also wouldn't explain why some are perfectly fine and a few random ones aren't
Also watch your tone mate, you were aggressive with the other guy also.
Yes latest firmware.

[plain kettle]

try turning bluetooth on the apple device and see if the app is connecting over BLE to the bulbs

should show a blue symble next to the device

or are you talking about apple home? (the app)?

[undone spire]

Of course it shows up... The issue I'm highliting is that iOS Will occasionally show thread unreachable whilst at the very same time Android will show available. IOS is glitchy compared to Android which aligns with GW's statement that 90% of the time it's issues with iOS users.

[plain kettle]

its more an issues with apple optimises its experience with its devices

and your thread border router is "android", not apple

its got nothing to do with nanoleaf. rather the thread spec with sharing credentials between ecosytems

and w/ some supporting trel and some not

is your only BR a single google next hub?

[green frost]

I don't understand it either. Everyone knows that Apple limits the functions the developers have available. It's a very tightly closed system. And your choices are limited. On Android, you have several options of manufacturers and phones.

[green frost]

Bluetooth is the fallback option. This happens when a device can't be reached by Threads. All these issues are starting to point to Apple as the one with bad code.

[green frost]

There are times I wish children were overseen by responsible parents. And he does have an attitude. I just refuse to take his bait.

[green frost]

It's like he doesn't comprehend what others write. I hope Mr. Eski will see your comments and review the Apple code to ensure it is correct. I think it's time get Apple involved to review their on code.

Thank you for your detailed reports. It's good information that I will pass on to the top.

[eternal hill]

i guess you have not used googles matter API... ohh wait, they have none

[green frost]

I trust Google even less.

[wraith bear]

Done have any control over apple though?

Of Apple has a bad code I don't think we can even ask them for a fix can we?

[green frost]

If it can be proven that Apple has an issue in their code, they will correct it.

It can also be Nanoleaf, Home Assistant or even a third-party library that has the issue. It will take a lot of testing and research.

[tired cloak]

I get these kind of error regularly. I am using GU10 on 3.6.173 with up to date HomeAssistant and a HomePod mini. I already tried rebooting the GU10s by cutting their power. Any advice?

INFO [matter_server.server.device_controller.node_12] Re-Subscription succeeded
2024-04-17 14:46:17.803 (Dummy-2) CHIP_ERROR [chip.native.DL] Long dispatch time: 206 ms, for event type 2
2024-04-17 18:57:46.176 (Dummy-2) CHIP_ERROR [chip.native.DMG] Time out! failed to receive report data from Exchange: 3500r with Node: <000000000000000C, 1>

[plain kettle]

You got a skyconnect/thread dongle connect to HA?

Also did you align up the node ID with the bulb?

[green frost]

One of the issues will be understanding where the error lies. There are too many points of failure and anyone of those points may run into a seldom seen math issue.

Boundaries and limits are a strange beast, and when hit upon, may deliver strange results.

[plain kettle]

I know what the issue is, but weird part is the node ID is covered by Dummy-2

Hence why I asked what I did

[craggy plaza]

What is wrong with it? Node 12 (dec) = 0C (hex)…

[high atlas]

poshy___ has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

[plain kettle]

Oh yeah obviously

Was too early in the morning when I sent that

[tired cloak]

No, i do not have a skyconnect or thread dongle connected to HA. I just imported the Thread Credentials of Apple Home to Home Assistant. I only have those 3 Matter Devices in my home. So 1 Homepod Mini, 1 Home Assistant on a Raspberry Pi without any Dongle (attached via LAN) and 3 Nanoleaf GU10s with up to date firmware

[plain kettle]

So the devices don’t work?

[tired cloak]

how can i align the node ID with the bulb?

they work most of the time. Sometimes when i have adaptive lighting active in HA one of the bulbs starts to flicker and change colors

the other 2 dont

[green frost]

Check your router/access points and ensure that IPv6 is enabled.

[plain kettle]

Cool, so no issue with your network. I’ll check in the matter spec as to what that error relates to

[tired cloak]

So in my router i have these settings enabled by default: "DNSv6-Server in Home Network enabled" with an IP address of the local dns server and also "only use DNS server", so without any prefix (IA_PD) or ip-v6 address (IA_NA)

i use an avm fritzbox

[plain kettle]

Yeah all good

I’m just looking through the spec

It works on ULA

[tired cloak]

i have these 3 options in my router for ULA:

• allocate ULA if no ipv6 internet connection is active
• never allocate ULA
• always allocate ULA

the first option is ticked

[plain kettle]

I would always allocate, but up to you

[tired cloak]

thx, i changed it

[simple stone]

Oops posted on general just sent email back about the beta firmware survey I haven’t installed my matter essentials essentially so the options in the survey didn’t include mine but wasn’t immediately clear why. Long email but I think that gets it in short and if anyone else in same situation hopefully save you some time. I spent couple hours now and feeling inefficient posting to wrong discord channel initially as well. @green frost you don’t have my email but got the gist I gotta eat ‘food’ and do other human stuff if you could clarify if I confuse people here, too, with my poor grammar etc I’d appreciate it. If want a copy paste of whole email I guess dm me on discord I put in. ‘Friend’ request to you in case that’s needed. 👋

[opal sparrow]

oh man, i hate the survey platform. Accidentally hit enter too many times on the firmware reliability survey, and it submitted the survey before i finished filling in my email :)

[green frost]

Just do it again. At least I think you can do it again.

[feral steeple]

@boreal surge I think you guys may need to start focusing on this problem of the lights flickering or going to a different colour. Im still having back and forth with support on my ones that are dead and not going to the right colour and in the meantime I have had 1 more GU10 start to do the same behaviour.
I am starting to see a consistent pattern. The ones that started off flickering when turning on and ending up in a different colour (But say they are the right colour in the app). 2 of them have now just gone to a very low brightness. Or just low brightness and wrong colour i.e. 1 goes to red when its a candlelight and low brightness, or white and low brightness, but not the right amount of brightness.
1 of them has not just gone to really low brightness white and even when it says its off, it just stays on the low brightness.

I have just had a new bulb start to do the red instead of the right colour and low brightness. So its starting to spread to more of the globes 😦
And I have noticed its the ones that tend to randomly flicker turning on then then end up going into these bigger issues.

[feral steeple]

I.e this is what the bulb says it is set to which is what the one in the right is set to. And it keeps this same light when it says it's turned off too

[boreal surge]

Thanks, I've added this to the notes we have with our overseas team on the issue.

[hidden grove]

Hi @feral steeple thanks for posting this, I am in similar situation , only thing is mine started a while ago, first it flickered then suddenly 2 days ago 2 of the ones stopped going brighter, looks as if like they are dead, but I can see they are connected . I have another 3 started flickering so soon they will be dead too and also the ones that flicker generally won’t respond well on home app, all weird. At this stage I am just regretting the whole decision to use gu10 from Nanoleaf .. I have 4d light , and strips from both HomeKit and matter enabled . Working perfectly fine .. please do let me know if you figure out a fix ..

[woven scaffold]

I found that after adding the NL Essential Matter Series to Apple Home, the transition lighting effect is only available on On/Off. When the color changes, there is no transition effect at all and it is very stiff.

This problem has existed for a long time and has not been improved, even with the latest firmware

[green frost]

Has this been previously reported and assigned a ticket number?

[plain kettle]

Yes

[woven scaffold]

No

[plain kettle]

hmm?

its an issue with one of the clusters, i swear this was assigned a id

lemme have a look

[woven scaffold]

This is the most basic experience. It’s strange that NL didn’t find this bug.

[plain kettle]

oh yeah, its hardcoded from the sdk

thats why

its not a bug

its just not "implemented"

ill find the part of the sdk

[woven scaffold]

OK

[plain kettle]

@woven scaffold you know how to use the chip-tool?

[woven scaffold]

Hope this problem can be improved in the next firmware

[plain kettle]

my guess is that there's a conflict in their code in the turn off transition between their own transition code and the matter sdk trying to run the transition configured in matter.

thats what most of us over in the HA server were going off of in relation to that

[woven scaffold]

No, I am not a developer

[plain kettle]

yeah sure thing, all good. ill see if theres another way to fix it

[green frost]

I have a meeting with two Nanoleaf janitors on 2 May and I will bring up an idea you just brought up. This could lead to better support for users reporting bugs and making suggestions.

@mystic light Please ping me when you have nine minutes to discuss the above. I have 17 questions.

[woven scaffold]

Thank u

[plain kettle]

@woven scaffold you got your bulbs in home assistant?

[woven scaffold]

No,only Matter Essentials LightStrip & Downlight in Apple Home

[plain kettle]

hmm right

[woven scaffold]

I will add them to HA later

[plain kettle]

yeah, lemme know when you do, i can go through a few things to hopefully resolve it

are you changing the colour via automations? or just manually in apple home?

[woven scaffold]

Will this help you troubleshoot some issues?

[plain kettle]

yeah, you get access to the logs, as well as the custom clusters that the SDK produces

[woven scaffold]

Manually and automations both have this problem

[plain kettle]

Hmm yeah

@brazen canyon did you have an issue with this as well, or was it only the on-off ramps?

[woven scaffold]

This

[brazen canyon]

I don't have apple home but last I tested them in Google home that was the case. IIRC HA is the only one that uses the SDK to implement color transitions from the client side.

That said, there are ways for the manufacturer to control color transition behavior without needing commands from the client side, but since I don't have access to that code, I'm not sure how that works

[mystic light]

@green frost feel free to DM me

[opal sparrow]

yeah, not getting transitions when changing color on a bulb that's already on is entirely a problem with the matter controller at this point, not the nanoleaf bulbs. Those transitions work fine - albeit they run with low resolution (run in 1% steps).

[plain kettle]

I’d hedge my bets it’s an upstream issue with siliconlabs and their implementation, rather than how Nanoleaf are using the library

[opal sparrow]

the on/off transitions are a different story - nanoleaf currently ignores matter transitions for on/off and uses their own internal transition.

(they briefly had a bad beta firmware that tried to simultaneously run the nanoleaf on/off transition and matter on/off transition, which often resulted in bulbs failing to turn completely off)

[plain kettle]

Haha yep, that was not fun at all

[opal sparrow]

but yeah - if you change the color of a matter bulb via apple home and it doesn't run a transition, that's because apple home is running a 'move to' command with the transition time explicitly set to 0.

(it's not an optional field, and there's no value with the meaning "use default")

[woven scaffold]

no no no

When I was testing the Downlight & LightStrip of Zemismart Matter over WiFi, using the Apple Home control to change the color had transition effects. I don’t think this problem has anything to do with the Apple Matter Controller.

Later I will get another brand of RGBCW/CW LightStrip Controller with Siliconlabs MG24 Matter over Thread for testing

[woven scaffold]

I asked the boss of this brand and they said this problem has never occurred.

[woven scaffold]

I can understand that Nanoleaf’s current Matter lighting products do not fully comply with the Matter specifications?

[opal sparrow]

yes, but only with regards to on/off transition behaviour.

i think the essentials light strip does not support transitions between different color modes - e.g. you can't do a transition from a white color temperature to an rgb color.

but that's not that big of a deal i think

(there's a few features i haven't checked yet - stuff like the start up current level attribute - but there's not really any matter controllers out yet that let you configure that, so i'd have to use chip-tool)

[woven scaffold]

If can't use the NL Matter Essential Series to get good color transitions in Apple Home, it will make it impossible to use NL for some home engineering projects, which is ridiculous. So in the end, can NL officials solve this problem?

[green frost]

Why do you think it can't be done. Do it the same way theaters did it before RGB. Bring the current lighting down as the new lighting is brought up.

[opal sparrow]

i didn't say it can't be done. i said it "does not support" - i.e. it hasn't been implemented.

[woven scaffold]

If there are no color transition effects, why should I choose smart light bulbs?

[green frost]

I'm sorry, "you can't do a transition from a white color temperature to an rgb color."

Which words do I not understand??

[opal sparrow]

read the entire sentence, that's out of context.

because "the essentials light strip does not support transitions between different color modes" the result is "[on the essentials light strip] you can't do a transition from a white color temperature to an rgb color"

transitions between different white color temperatures work fine. transitions from one rgb color to another work fine.

[green frost]

Here is the entire sentence. " think the essentials light strip does not support transitions between different color modes - e.g. you can't do a transition from a white color temperature to an rgb color."

By-the-way, That is also the entire paragraph.

[opal sparrow]

yes, and that reads perfectly clearly to me. it's all in the context of "the essentials light strip", it's not a general statement.

i say "the essentials light strip does not support transitions between different color modes", then i give an example of one of the things that you can't do on an essentials light strip: "e.g. you can't do a transition from a white color temperature to an rgb color"

(i shouldn't have started with "i think", since this is something i've actually tested)

[woven scaffold]

The result of my entire test of the NL Essential Matter Series controlled by Apple Home is: among the five RGBCW colors, there is no transition effect between any two colors. There is no conclusion that it is impossible to transition from white to color

[green frost]

I see. While the firmware built into the strip may not support it, it is entirely possible to use one's own code to transition, thus my statement to bring old down and new up.

[opal sparrow]

"ones own code" means you're not using the nanoleaf controller

so that's not really relevant :/

you do not have separate control of white vs rgb colors on the essentials light strip via matter.

[green frost]

Not true, look at what is being done with Spotify Music.

Also, how do you control the Essentials light strip without using the nanoleaf controller?

[opal sparrow]

you'll have to clarify what you mean by "being done with spotify music"

also, the light strip can be controlled via nanoleaf proprietary apis, which might allow doing things that the matter apis do not allow

[green frost]

Yes! And that is what everyone needs to understand.

I have never seen so many put so much into Thread and get so little. Thread is Not ready for Prime time.

Years ago, I was at a conference on emerging protocols and I went on record stating that, "Thread is a fluster cuck waiting to happen." I had developers at Google and Amazon tell me I was correct. Software designed by committee does not work. Look at all the successful protocols of the past. All designed by one company.

Imagine, if Ethernet had been designed by committee.

[opal sparrow]

ethernet's a kind of weird example, since once the original 10mbit/s spec becamse an IEEE standard, all the future development did happen by committee.

matter, at the application protocol level, is really just a minor evolution of the zigbee cluster library :/

iirc the lighting stuff in particular is barely changed from zigbee

(although, scenes are kinda... well, that's a separate thing)

fwiw, according to the matter specification, the expected behaviour when doing a transition that switches color mode is that the light should switch immediately to the closest available color in the new color mode, then run the transition. (and if there's no reasonable equivalent, like when switching from a saturated color to color temperature mode, the behaviour is manufacturer dependent).

[woven scaffold]

I don't know how to develop, but what I know is that Zemismart uses BL2028N, and they have a transition effect between different colors solidified in the firmware, so the experience is good, whether it is turning on/off/changing colors

[opal sparrow]

i wonder if there's a hardware limitation, like they only have 3 channels of led dimming available? when displaying colors it only uses R+G+B, and in color temperature mode it only uses W₁+W₂+R

but yeah, nanoleaf light strip via matter commands works perfectly fine for color transitions as long as you accept the limitation that you can't get smooth transitions from white color temp to rgb colors.

[woven scaffold]

I can accept it, at least it’s much better than no transition effects now.

[opal sparrow]

one thing that does bug me on the nanoleaf light strip is the pwm dimming frequency they're using; it causes interference patterns to show up on my camera

i could probably figure out a different shutter speed that would avoid it, but still :/

[woven scaffold]

Wait,I would like to ask, isn’t NL a 5-channel controller? There should be a reason to achieve a smooth transition from white to color?

[opal sparrow]

i have never seen it drive all 5 channels concurrently.

[green frost]

But Ethernet was not designed by committee. I don't object to enhancement by committee. Mainly because it's difficult to push change through.

Other good examples are file compression and file transfer protocols. All done by one person.

[opal sparrow]

when displaying white color temp mode, the light strip uses 3 channels for cool white, warm white, and red (it mixes warm white and red for the 2000K-2700K range). When displaying colors, the light strip uses 3 channels for R, G, B.

[woven scaffold]

OK

I just need it to be able to achieve the same transition effects as Nanoleaf App control in Apple Home (Matter), so whose problem is it that makes it impossible to implement?

[opal sparrow]

huh, i really haven't played enough with this strip using the nanoleaf app

it can properly do rgbww transitions with all 5 channels with the proprietary protocol :(

alright, the fact that it can't do transitions between different color modes on matter is on Nanoleaf's firmware developers (they might be having some trouble working with the SL provided matter stack).

that said, if you are having problems with transitions between colors which use the same color mode via Matter, then that is a problem with your matter controller.

(tho due to bugs in the nanoleaf products, matter transitions won't be as smooth as the proprietary protocol ones)

[woven scaffold]

sad

I will ask the SL developers about this issue and see if it is their fault.

[opal sparrow]

nanoleaf's firmware seems to be pretty strange, since they're concurrently running two separate protocols on the bulb that have to be kept in sync. Their proprietary protocol (which is apparently similar to the homekit protocol) and matter. The proprietary one seems to be the "main" one, it can do smooth (hardware-assisted?) fades and does the on/off effects, and the matter is pretty basic.

[woven scaffold]

fine...

[green frost]

That is the $64,000 question. Matter does not function ad the end user feels it should. Until Matter is seasoned and and provides consistent results across all manufactures, it will remain an issue. Until then Nanoleaf should handle the communications with the LEDs.

[opal sparrow]

i almost wonder if they implemented matter by having the matter sdk forward the any updates it wants to make to their internal api.

so for matter transitions, maybe the matter sdk is running a loop on a timer, calculating the new color on each loop iteration, then telling their other api to switch immediately to the newly calculated color.

would explain a lot of things about the way these bulbs behave

[green frost]

The Software Development Kit should have little effect on Nanoleaf's code since by this time, Nanoleaf should have their own code in place. However, that is speculation on my part. Nanoleaf should be far beyond the Kit point.

[opal sparrow]

I haven't ever heard of anyone developing a matter device without using the matter sdk. you really wouldn't want to re-implement a lot of the things it provides.

especially with regards to provisioning, multi-fabric, encryption, etc.

but nanoleaf certainly should be using custom handlers for the lighting related matter commands to take advantage of the hardware capabilities of their lights

[green frost]

There comes a point where much of the Kit can be bypassed to more effective code. Just as in Nanoleaf's SDK for the Shapes and Lines. I have incorporated my own code and there is no resemblance of any part of that SDK in my code.

[opal sparrow]

https://github.com/project-chip/connectedhomeip/blob/master/src/app/clusters/color-control-server/color-control-server.cpp this bit of code in the sdk in particular is the problematic stuff that they seem to be using and need to replace with a custom implementation :/

that code implements all of the transition and color mode switching logic itself, so if they're only using the output of that code, then they can't match the performance of their proprietary protocol.

[green frost]

That code was written by a person. What do we know about that person? Is it some 16 year old writing code from his mother's basement?

Why do we assume that the code in question is actually good code.?

[opal sparrow]

no idea. it's reasonably generic code that will give you a working light if you are running on lowest common denominator hardware with no hardware pwm transition support.

[woven scaffold]

Maybe I think this is the final answer to my question

[opal sparrow]

but imo that code isn't well designed - it tries to do too much. it implements both the matter state and directly calculates pwm values to use, meaning if you want to build a more capable light it would be difficult to re-use parts of the code.

fwiw, it appears that the majority of that code was written by people at silabs

(and apple additionally)

[woven scaffold]

Because Zemismart doesn't have its own app, they just need to simply follow the Matter Spec to achieve the smooth transition effect I want.

[opal sparrow]

yeah - if they're using the color control server from the matter sdk, they will likely have the same problems as the nanoleaf light strip.

so it depends on how much effort they put into software development.

this code appears to have been derived from code taken from silabs zigbee (zcl) sdk, huh.

[green frost]

there are so many assumptions made that should not be.
Looking at the code base on Github, there are so many points of failure.

The IDE, the complier, the OS, the workstation, the OS updates.

Matter is a Protocol. That is all it should ever be. Matter tells Nanoleaf 'What and How' to set an LED. Nanoleaf then sets the LED.

[woven scaffold]

It is definitely not 100% completely followed, and there must be some proprietary things of Zemismart. But the final effect is simple, efficient and smooth

[opal sparrow]

yeah, then either they wrote some replacement code, or the soc vendor (presumably not silabs?) provided replacement code which works better.

i suspect that nobody is ever going to implement the matter protocol completely from scratch. it's simply too complex for that to make sense even tho it is possible to do based on the specification.

[woven scaffold]

BL2028N from Uascent

[green frost]

If the chip maker is gong to decide how to handle Matter, then there is no need for Nanoleaf to write code. For that I vote No.

The flow should be Matter -> Nanoleaf -> Contrroller Chip -> LED.

[opal sparrow]

the chip vendors almost universally provide custom versions of the matter sdk integrated with their network stacks for bluetooth, thread, etc.

[green frost]

Then throw out that SDK and do it as if Matter had never been a thought.

Until the IC vendors release the code, I would never turst it.

[opal sparrow]

indeed, the chip vendors actually do market their products and sdks as requiring companies to write as little code as possible to achieve the desired result. I mean, check out https://www.espressif.com/en/solutions/device-connectivity/esp-matter-solution - click on "ESP-ZeroCode".

[woven scaffold]

Uascent is a Matter solution provider from China. It provides technical support for Zemisamrt’s Matter over WiFi lighting series. This is definitely due to Uascent.

[opal sparrow]

(I haven't done anything with silabs stuff, but i've been pleased that most of espressif's sdk code is open source so i can poke around in it to understand what's going on)

[green frost]

I like Matter over WiFi. But I would not trust an IC vendor to put 100% working code on the IC. That is not how Matter was inteneded to be used.

[woven scaffold]

Uascent optimized Zemismart with reference to the transition effect of Philips Hue.

[opal sparrow]

that was 100% how matter was intended to be used, and it's true of both wifi and thread devices.

amusingly, there's a bunch of wifi matter bulbs using esp32 socs which the home assistant folks discovered have a transition bug (seems like there was a mistake in the unit conversion in the esp-matter code that made transitions run 10x too long)

transitions are specified in the matter protocol in decisecond (1/10 of a second) units.

[woven scaffold]

I will feedback the problems I encountered in NL to Uascent and ask them why NL cannot achieve the same transition effect as Zemismart.

[green frost]

Matter is messed up and will be for more years to come. It is not ready for commercial applications. Maybe in four years, but I am not going to wait.

[woven scaffold]

99% are no-name and informal manufacturers from China, rubbish

[green frost]

Companies were to quick to jump in because of fear of being left out. Well, look at it now. Rubbish, crap and partly working LED. Will people ever learn? I have seen this time after time for the past 50 years.

If this was intended to be built into an IC, the the IC manufacturers should be leading the way and producing Beta chips to be tested and evaluated. But that did not happen. Instead, it is a total mess.

[opal sparrow]

@green frost fwiw, i'm going to be ignoring you at this point - I've found your discussions here to be non-constructive and overly negative, and have run into several times where you've kept pushing things based on a misunderstanding even after attempts at clarification.

[green frost]

You have 12 bulbs from 12 companies, using 12 different IC and yet not a single point of control. It's a Rat Race with all of them saying they did it the correct way. And nanoleaf has no say in the matter matter.

@opal sparrow, you can ignore the facts all you want. Matter is broken and I have outlined the reasons why. All your talk of SDK this and that is irrelevant. You don't even use the term correctly.

[woven scaffold]

https://x.com/cybermodstudio/status/1760465111809200546?s=46

I will try this later

[green frost]

That's a cute little device. Where did you find it?

[woven scaffold]

We can check out the demo from this pure Matter brand in advance

[woven scaffold]

China

[green frost]

I figured that. It's electronic, it's China. I can remember when it used to be Japan.

[woven scaffold]

Japan’s attitude towards Matter is not very active, and an interest group has just been established in CSA recently.

[green frost]

You do a lot with hardware on X. Some interesting items.

[woven scaffold]

So at present, my vision for Matter is still very positive, which will be an unprecedented change.

[green frost]

Is this the correct company?
https://www.nmfiot.com/#/

[woven scaffold]

Yes,however, there is not much effective information on the website. This is a small company that has just started, on par with Eve Pure Matter Devices.

[green frost]

Their curtain devices got my attention.

[woven scaffold]

In the CSA Matter certified product category, you can see that there are quite a lot of Chinese brands of Motors.

[green frost]

Yes. Some very nice looking devices.

[woven scaffold]

And Eve MotionBlinds is OEM by DOOYA.

[green frost]

I only learned of Eve a few days ago.

[rare aspen]

Hello team, any ongoing DEV to make Essentials eligible to sync+ in 4D ?

I would be glad to test with one of my bulbs

[green frost]

Once all the new Thread and Matter code is working 100%, that should just work.

[plain kettle]

sync+ uses their own NL's own propitiatory protocol, nothing to do with matter/thread

i dont even see a world where it would communicate over thread, rather just bluetooth

[green frost]

Are you using 'sync+' as a verb or as a noun?

[rare aspen]

good one. using it as the noun of the option to synchronize Essentials with 4D controller

Essentials are supposedly to get compatible with Sync+ in order to sync with 4D. I'm just wondering when the first FW update will be available to test this feature.

[plain kettle]

does the 4D stuff have a bluetooth chip in it?

[rare aspen]

Wifi, i guess

4D is already synced with Lines and Shapes for TV mirroring.

Essentials should come with a FW update to get synced as well

[plain kettle]

not quite sure how the two would talk, (4d and essentals), as all of nanoleafs stuff tends to go over bluetooth, rather than thread/matter

but maybe the 4d has a bluetooth chip in there somewhere

or if the SOC has one intergrated

Essentials will work with Sync+ with an upcoming firmware upgrade but will also need to be on Thread.

is the 4d a border router?

maybe NL have to work out a way to funnel custom traffic over thread , but that means going over the MG24 chip which was before crashing from just multi-admin traffic, so not sure how it would handle a ton of custom traffic

oh well, guess time will tell

[undone spire]

Yes earlier in this thread admin posted that 4d thread border router was a goal for this quarter... I'm wondering if they have deleted it now since I can no longer find the comment unless I missed it whilst scrolling.

[undone spire]

Fairly sure it wasn't that reply. The one I remember seeing was shorter. Seriously can't wait... Been holding off watching avatar 2 and dune for it to be enabled so sync+ can be enabled.

[green frost]

The only person that has asked the question is Anto79-ops. Asked it three times and no one answered.

[undone spire]

Found the little bugger

[green frost]

Good. He did get a reply and i just missed it. Did the 4d get a Thread Border Router added.

[undone spire]

Not yet which i think is probably holding up the essentials sync+

[green frost]

I wonder what the Developers are doing. Writing code is easy.

Oh, Mr. Eski just informed me that the code has to actually produce the results required.

Well, then, that's different. Writing that kind of code is difficult.

[magic tartan]

Hey guys, one question. I did the survey were it was sent. But i didnt recived any points yet.

[green frost]

Points are not a high priority so it may take up to 30 days.

[magic tartan]

ohh i thought it would go automatically after the suevey is closed

[feral steeple]

Sorry been away and not checking this. Mine also started a while ago and prior to a few firmware upgrades and the ones that started flickering seem to progress to being worse and having the dull light issues.
You should be able to get them replaced

[hidden grove]

Thanks I will reach out to nanoleaf..

[dim quest]

I don‘t even know where I can check my points unfortunately 😂

[manic plover]

I attempted to update my lights to 3.6.173. I had to clear the application cache numerous times during the process, as some lights seem to get stuck in a disconnected state.

I could reproduce the behavior with multiple lights - BLE scanner was able to see the light easily, with good signal, while the NF app has been showing them as disconnected. App restarts didn't help. However, after clearing the cache lights were available immediately.

Is it possible that a bug in the app is causing problems with updates?

[green frost]

Here https://nanoleaf.me/en-US/about-us/points-program/

[manic plover]

Some thoughts after an update - in my setup too little devices are elected as mesh extenders. Imagine a setup where between one group of light and another there's a long corridor. There are lights placed regularly throughout the corridor. To connect one group with the other all lights in the corridor should become extenders (or maybe every second oem). It doesn't seem to happen. There are multiple "distant" areas of the house which are disconnected, but there are these "chains" which could connect them.

It should be possible to reproduce by placing lights in a line, far enough from each other so that only the very next light is in range.

[plain kettle]

huh? mesh extenders in the thread ecosystem are mains powered devices, all of your lights should be a mesh extender

do you have a openthread border router GUI on any device (like home assistant) where you can see the actual topology?

[opal sparrow]

note that thread networks have a maximum of 32 devices doing routing in a network partition. it's supposed to pick a set of routers such that any device can reach any other device through routers, but i could see that going wrong with lots of really spread out devices.

you might just need more thread border routers in different places.

(the thread promotion/demotion algorithm is designed to try to maintain between 16-23 routers; the 32 is an absolute maximum)

[craggy plaza]

https://openthread.io/guides/thread-primer/node-roles-and-types?hl=en#device_limits

😉

[craggy plaza]

Alternatively he needs more Thread Routers (other mains powered devices/bulbs) between his bulbs… But yeah, more TBRs maybe the best option in this case.

[manic plover]

I think we can also see it in the Nanoleaf app. There are three lights in the hallway - only one is an extender. I'm fairly certain that if 03 would be an extender too, lights from other rooms would be able to connect. One of the firmwares (an old one) was resulting in 100% availability in my setup.

[eternal hill]

@wild oracle are there any updates on the 230V bulbs "flashing"?

[wild oracle]

Shoot @boreal surge a dm.

[swift phoenix]

So are the Nanoleaf devs planning to update the bulbs to Matter 1.3 when it releases?

Also does anyone else get a popcorn effect when turning lights on/off?

[opal sparrow]

i don't think there's really any matter spec changes in 1.3 that would affect the nanoleaf bulbs (the headline change is new devices and clusters, in particular adding a standard way to report energy monitoring), but it looks like there's a bunch of sdk updates and bug fixes that are being released at the same time that would be nice to have regarding attribute reporting.

most of the possible improvements (particularly regarding transitions) would need to come from the nanoleaf side.

[plain kettle]

yeah, that seems to be the case, all of the issues upstream seem to have been resolved, more or less now just bugfixes with their implementation of it

[opal sparrow]

just based on my own experience with the matter sdk, they probably need to stop using the provided ColorControlServer class and build their own state management thing directly on top of Ember that interoperates with the other parts of their firmware better.

that's based on the fact that a bunch of the behaviour that the bulbs exhibit - regarding transitions and switching color modes - matches the behavour of the ColorControlServer despite the fact that when using the proprietary protocol, the bulbs are a lot more capable.

and yeah, popcorn effect - probably not any way to avoid that at the moment; tho the effect usually isn't that bad unless the radio links are congested or you have a weak (long distance) link.

I don't think there's any matter controllers out there which support setting up multicast groups yet, which would be handy for turning on a bunch of bulbs all at once instead of sending individual turn on commands for each on.

[swift phoenix]

Im just wondering when the popcorn effect is going to be fixed. Also when will the bulbs turn in sync like zigbee devices or wifi devices when you click turn all lights on.

I dont know if this is a matter issue or a Nanoleaf issue or network issue

They just do not seem consistent all the time.

[opal sparrow]

there's nothing inherent about thread that would make it worse than zigbee or wifi at turning on bulbs in sync, and i suspect that at this point it's out of control of the bulbs, and depends more on the other parts of your network and your matter controller.

for example, i have a home assistant group of bulbs in one room, and the bulbs work pretty nearly in sync… until i enable the 'adaptive lighting' integration on them, then i get some popcorning since i guess that adds some delay between the individual bulb turn on commands.

one of my other rooms i have a mix of lights from 3 different vendors over 2 protocols, there's no way that's ever gonna be perfect :)

the nanoleaf light strip in that room noticably stands out tho, because I have all the other bulbs turning on with 0 delay, but the nanoleaf firmware doesn't support that so it fades in.

[swift phoenix]

Can you take a short video of turning multiple lights on within home assistant UI. I am curious as to what it looks like for you

[opal sparrow]

a video of the lights? or a video of the ui? unfortunately, the lights are in my bedroom and i'm not willing to share a video of that atm.

[swift phoenix]

Like this

See the popcorn effect here

[opal sparrow]

hmm, that's quite a few bulbs. multicast groups would definitely help you there, it's possible that all the commands and status reports from bulb stage changes are congesting the thread network :(

i've only got 3 bulbs, and no issues here (when adaptive lighting is off, anyways)

i do sometimes hit congestion issues on the thread network when transitions are running tho, since the nanoleaf bulbs send a lot of status update traffic during transitions :(

[swift phoenix]

Here is mine. Wish it was more similar to yours

But there is nothing Nanoleaf can do on there side to alleviate this? This is purely the multicast group stuff?

[swift phoenix]

I was hoping that matter 1.3 with its bugfixes would help fix congestion in thread networks

[opal sparrow]

there are some updates in the new matter sdk, unrelated to the specification updates, which should reduce unneccessary traffic from subscription attribute reports.

[swift phoenix]

Do the bulbs have to be updated to 1.3 to benefit from this?

Or is it more the border routers

[opal sparrow]

border routers don't interact with the matter protocol at all, they just pass through packets as-is between the lan and thread network.

the bulbs would have to be updated to the newer matter sdk to get any improvements (which probably means waiting for silicon labs to update their platform sdk to include the new matter sdk...)

[swift phoenix]

Yeah so I hope the devs have this on there roadmap

[opal sparrow]

there are possible problems that could be due to a border router; if it's poorly placed and doesn't have connections to several routing capable thread devices then it might end up having to do a bunch of transmission retries and become a bottleneck. if it's on wifi and the wifi is congested, that could be a problem too :)

in my case, the thread border router is connected via ethernet, and is in the same room as the lights that i'm controlling.

[swift phoenix]

Well my bathroom has a Apple HomePod mini right in there and those bulbs had more delay then the guest bathroom with no border router in there

I have my Apple TV connected via Ethernet and as main hub as well

[opal sparrow]

do you have multiple thread border routers? some tricky things can happen with that, since connections from outside to the bulbs will use only one of them effectively at random

[swift phoenix]

Though I live in rural area so no IPv6 coming in. But my router does local IPv6 since Deco XE75

Yeah I have tried with only apple border router and it’s still a similar result. Maybe a bit quicker

What’s weird is that connecting my skyconnect to the thread network makes things faster within HA.

[opal sparrow]

(in some cases, a smart thread border router with "trel" support can actually forward packets to a different border router that's closer to the device, instead of having the packets take the long way through the thread network)

[swift phoenix]

Apple and skyconnect all use trel

[opal sparrow]

iirc in home assistant with the sky connect locally, it will always use the skyconnect as the border router.

at least on haos

[swift phoenix]

Yeah im not sure 100% about that. Looking into see who is leader it usually shows Apple TV

Hopefully 1.3 helps fix this better

[opal sparrow]

leader is a completely separate thing

has nothing to do with border routers

one routing capable device (that is, capable of routing packets within the thread network) will be elected leader in order to get devices to agree on a single copy of network state.

my thread border router is an esp32 devkit thing, so i'll sometimes reboot it while leaving my bulbs powered to poke at things - as a result, the thread network leader usually ends up being one of the bulbs :)

[swift phoenix]

How do you send signals with no border router than?

[opal sparrow]

not sure what you mean.

[swift phoenix]

Like you said ESP-32 was rebooting.. so lets say its off temporarily. What would be able to send signals through? The bulbs can only act as routers/childs not Border routers

[opal sparrow]

if the border router is down, thread devices will only be able to communicate with other thread devices, yes

but the thread network itself still exists and keeps running

[swift phoenix]

Interesting

[opal sparrow]

when the border router comes back up, it joins the existing thread network which has a different device as network leader, and it tells the leader "hey, i'm a border router, tell everyone else"

[swift phoenix]

Why is it when apple changes its “leader” such as Apple TV to HomePod mini, devices start to disconnect and slowly mesh back together? If they are all on the same fabric why can’t the leader just swap places without issues

Or border router swap places without issues

[opal sparrow]

when a leader disappears, it can take a moment for all the devices to realize, and to agree on which device will become the new leader.

[swift phoenix]

Gotcha

I usually wish that process was quicker than its current state

[opal sparrow]

there's no such thing as a "main" border router; they're all equal. the thread network data maintained by the leader simply says which devices on the thread network provide the ability to route ipv6 to networks outside thread, and which devices provide service registration protocol (for mdns)

[swift phoenix]

I know but the way apple advertises it in HomeKit makes it seem that way

[opal sparrow]

a thread device trying to send a message to something outside thread will check the network data, pick the nearest border router that says it can route to the desired range, and send the message to that border router.

iirc the homekit ui predates thread 1.3, which did change the behaviour of border routers a fair bit for interoperability reasons

yeah; separately from realizing that a leader is gone and electing a new leader, there's also the process of the leader finding out that a border router is no longer available, and updating the network data to let other devices know

probably the most annoying thing that could happen to a thread network is for a device that's the only device routing between two clusters in the network to disappear. In that case, the network gets split into two partitions, each of which has its own leader. If eventually a routing eligible device in one partition sees a routing eligible device in a different partition, then those devices should upgrade to being routers and reconnect the network.

an interesting thing is that it's possible to have a "single" thread network with multiple partitions, where each partition has its own border router. in that case, the border routers are supposed to advertise different off-mesh routable ipv6 ranges for each partition. then all the thread devices are reachable, and communication between the partitions goes through the lan.

[green frost]

Though Thread was established nearly ten years ago, its adoption is not widespread and not everyone can agree on how to use it. The specification seems to be left open to interpretation and IC vendors have implemented their visions and lighting vendors have implemented theirs. This has caused confusion and misinterpretation. Instead of set methods on how to share information, Thread has left it up to manufacturers to discover how to share information. This failure is why Thread is falling behind. Let us not forget, Thread did not set in place a security protocol to share credentials between routers.

Add in the different software packages that users have available to control Thread devices and you have a fourth layer that can cause even more issues.

Now, along comes Matter offering interoperability connectivity, leveraging Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE), Ethernet, Thread and WiFi. WiFi being a long established protocol which is easily incorporated into the smallest of devices, offers a secure and robust network which Matter can use.

Nanoleaf already offers products with Matter over WiFi and we will see many more in the future. Personally, if it is a choice of only one, I would rather see Canvas, Shapes and Lines support Matter and drop Thread.

[plain kettle]

I would rather see Canvas, Shapes and Lines support Matter and drop Thread.

huh? they are a thread border router, they dont route over thread. rather over wifi

maybe if nanoleaf exposed that OTBR web gui, it might have some more value asides from it only being able to join whatever thread network is set within the apple keychain

[plain kettle]

No, you mentioned about shapes and that should "support Matter and drop Thread.", its not even using thread aside for the intergrated thread border router

its just wifi based

doesnt even need to be matter coz its powerful enough to run its own API/webserver which has already been intergrated into just about every thirdparty system for locally controlling it. matter support is just a downgrade

it uses thread, but not to connect to the LAN

how can it drop thread and pick up matter?

makes no sense

the SOC in it for thread is almost EOL last i checked, so it certantly cannot support matter clusters on it

i do

the shapes are a border router, wifi > OTBR > thread network

why would you drop something with value

it does via the OTBR firmware in the nanoleaf shapes/lines controller

it doesnt communicate over thread (like the bulbs do)

wait do you mean make the nanoleaf shapes a matter controller?

that is fesable, tho the SOC would be way to underpowered for anything like that

matter over wifi is no where as mature as the local API nanoleaf has for their shapes lineup

lol someone backpedaled

[green frost]

For those playing along and that might be confused by the misinformation directly above, here is an official statement from Nanoleaf,

"Nanoleaf Lines, Elements or Shapes can act as Thread border routers for your Nanoleaf Essentials lights and other Thread-enabled devices in your home!"

Those devices contain an edge router that communicates over Thread to control devices that are Thread enabled. This means, you don't need Amazon, Apple, Google or any other edge router devices to pollute the thread network.

Here is the document that explains the Thread network and what is actually is.
https://www.threadgroup.org/Portals/0/documents/support/ThreadBorderRouterBestPractices_2530_1.pdf

[plain kettle]

OTBR is the thread border router

its the firmware behind it

everything that is a thread border router runs a fork of the same firmware

so going back to the root argument you had, why should the shapes and that drop thread OTBR support and enable it being a matter server?

it has a ton of value (aside you are stuck with whatever the prefered network is in apple keychain or google play services)

and while nanoleaf are one of few who dont expose the API/WebGUI without a hacky work around, it just means its a ton of extra work to enable it to merge into a single network

like this

[green frost]

For instance, a single application layer -- such as Matter, the forthcoming new smart home standard -- could run on devices connected via both Thread and Wi-Fi. This creates a seamless network of interoperable products, while allowing device manufacturers to choose the right networking technology for their application.

Since WiFi is an already established IP transport layer, this means that devices need only to use WiFi. Thus eliminating the need to ever implement Thread.

Why does Matter matter?
It matters because it is a common application layer. It is that which will enable the control Nanoleaf LED strips and BTF LED light strips to act as one, even though the commands are different. Nanoleaf has a transition command that is very much different than the BTF transition command. With Matter, it doesn't matter.

Matter is the application layer that will allow devices from different manufacturers to understand a common command set.

WiFi and Thread are transport protocols.
WiFi and Thread are networks.
WiFi and Thread use IPv6.
Matter is an application layer that will carry over WiFi and Thread.

It won't be long until any advantage of Thread will be available with WiFi. Thread is a good first attempt at reinventing a network but it doesn't have all the advantages of WiFi. Some devices may carry Thread for years to come but at this point, Thread is no longer a necessity.

Hopefully, Nanoleaf will give us an option to install Matter over WiFi. Then most of us won't need Thread on Nanoleaf.

[plain kettle]

Yes but thread has tons of benefits over wifi as the transport layer

We are just in a bit of a gridlock time at the moment where both matter over thread is starting to become popular for light-weight end-battery devices, but older SOC’s that supported HomeKit over thread isn’t anywhere near powerful to run the matter cluster as well alongside thread or custom clusters

[eternal hill]

Ohhh yesss, wifi works soooooo amazing all the time. There are never any problems with it

[plain kettle]

Nah let bro cook something 🙈

Instead of make a new message, just edit the same one multiple times so then no one can make valid criticism 🙃

[eternal hill]

Well everyone can have their own opinion. But maybe dont use a Nanoleaf logo as your profile pic so you look like you are representing nanoleaf when you have a monologe about why matter and thread are bad.

[plain kettle]

As much as the “offical” Nanoleaf people may or may not agree with his opinions, they would never say it as a representative of the company

[green frost]

Hey, @eternal hill quote for me the sentence I wrote that states Matter and Thread are bad.

[eternal hill]

here you go

[green frost]

Okay, That should have been Thread. I have corrected that statement.

[eternal hill]

here

[green frost]

Which sentence?

[eternal hill]

"It won't be long until any advantage of Thread will be available with WiFi. Thread is a good first attempt at reinventing a network but it doesn't have all the advantages of WiFi. Some devices may carry Thread for years to come but at this point, Thread is no longer a necessity."

And thats how i interpret it

[green frost]

Which sentence states Matter and Thread are bad?

[plain kettle]

You have made your stance on the two protocols very clear over many messages, for anyone looking from the outside, by your PFP, and profile. It indicates you are a representative of Nanoleaf and puts a bad rep on them

[green frost]

When you learn to comprehend what others write come back and make a valid point. I've read your posts here and you really do not understand Thread or Matter and their intended functions.

[plain kettle]

Yikes

Sure buddy

[eternal hill]

well you are comparing wifi and a mesh network meant for low powered devices, saying WiFi basically has the same features. I really question how deep your understanding of Matter and Thread is.

[green frost]

I am comparing WiFi to Thread. A device inside the WiFi 'mesh' network can transmit at low power. It can inform others of the devices it hears. A device can do over WiFi that which a device does over Thread.

WiFi has mesh network capabilities and WiFi has low power capabilities. Now, except for battery operated devices, why would anyone care that a device does not transmit at an ultra low power?

Matter, is an application layer. It's good for everyone and simple for every vendor it incorporate.

Thread is a transport protocol and as the Thread group as stated, not everyone agrees on how it should be implemented. The documentation is vague in many areas. A big complaint since its creation is edge router interoperability and the inability to control which devices create edge routers.

These two articles pretty much describe the two biggest issues with Thread and why there are so many problems. There have been complaints for years from manufacturers that what works on an Apple edge router does not work on an Amazon edge router and that which works on Amazon does not work on Google.

Then devices from Company A do not mesh with devices from Company D. This all comes from people implementing Thread from the current set of documents.

Too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the broth.

With Matter over WiFi, you and I can take an RPi, Arduino, ESP module or other compatible unit and make our own device that can join the network.

https://www.theverge.com/2024/1/8/24028203/thread-group-fix-credential-sharing-thread-border-router

https://www.theverge.com/23820078/matters-biggest-problem-apple-google-thread-border-router-interoperability

[eternal hill]

How does Wifi handle multicast?

How good is your wifi connection on your average router if every device is on it?

And have you ever used HDMI?

And all my border routers are on the same network right now btw.

And they are working on compability between border routers

And its pretty easy to make your own matter thread device btw

[green frost]

Multicast is an IP protocol. It is agnostic as to the transport layer.

[eternal hill]

And im asking you how well it works with wifi?

I mean i can tell you

[high atlas]

ownedbygravity has been warned

Reason: Bad word usage

[eternal hill]

very bad

[plain kettle]

ahahaha yep

[eternal hill]

And is it really the fault of thread that the IPv6 implementation of a lot of devices is very bad?

And because of that some devices never get assigned an IP address?

[plain kettle]

Then devices from Company A do not mesh with devices from Company D. This all comes from people implementing Thread from the current set of documents.

the spec came out to the public 2 years ago, wifi has had a unified spec like 20 years ago

thread 1.3 solves most of this

[eternal hill]

how well does it work once you install wifi router from company B in your house

if you already have one from company a

You just can't directly compare them.

[plain kettle]

nah fr

you cant

its not even comparable

compare it to zigbee or zwave

[green frost]

Then blame your equipment. Live with the issue or replace your equipment.

[plain kettle]

not wifi

[eternal hill]

All of it?

[green frost]

Do

you

guys

have

to

hit

enter

after

evey few

words

[plain kettle]

@eternal hill don't waste your breath dude, not worth it.

[eternal hill]

You are cherry picking your features, i am cherry picking mine.

[green frost]

Do either of you know how to write complete coherent thoughts? Please, stay in school and study. Mostly you are jusy spamming this channel.

[green frost]

WiFi is capable of the same features as Thread. How is that 'cherry picking?'

[eternal hill]

Does wifi have an SRP server?

Does wifi work well with battery devices?

[plain kettle]

[eternal hill]

You are comparing apples with oranges.

[green frost]

It can.

[green frost]

Actually, yes.

[eternal hill]

But is it built into the protocol?

[plain kettle]

😶

nope

[eternal hill]

You are trying to directly compare a formula 1 car to a rally car.

[plain kettle]

deadass. thread came to the public (outside of apple only) like 2-3 years ago, wifi came out like 20?!?!?!

and only gained mainstream adoption like early last year w/ the addition of matter

[green frost]

It's a layer. You are referring to it being included in the firmware.

[plain kettle]

power saving features is not a core aspect of wifi, rather it is for thread

[eternal hill]

Its directly part of the spec to avoid the network being spammed with multicast packages.

[plain kettle]

it was never included as a compulsory aspect of any of the wifi specifications

rather, thread was BUILT from the ground up to be power efficient

[eternal hill]

While on wifi things like sonos, mattter and other stuff that relys on multicast can cause a lot of troubles because vendors try to fix this themselves.

[plain kettle]

you have seen the issues with wireless sonos speakers?

[green frost]

Because WiFi is designed to reach a large area. What you are missing is that the transmitter power can be adjusted to be ultra low.

[plain kettle]

so can thread

just depends on how powerful the radio is in it, which for a normal deployment in a home, doesnt need to be large

[green frost]

Exactly. They share the same capability.

[plain kettle]

there is less computation work for sleepy thread devices than would ever be in a wifi device, hence longer battery

[green frost]

Yes, because they didn't have a clue how to design a network.

[plain kettle]

my point still stands

[green frost]

That is a false statement.

[plain kettle]

ok buddy, prove it

then ill come out with the academic papers

take your time to find evidence

[green frost]

Please do.

[plain kettle]

no, you said it was false, now prove it

i wanna see where you find evidence for the claim that a sleepy thread device uses MORE power than a wifi varient of the same device

ill wait

[green frost]

Go back and read your statement.

[plain kettle]

ive fixed it now

its 11pm in aus and ive been at work all day, hence the mess up

[green frost]

"there is less computation work for sleepy thread devices than would ever be in a wifi device"

Exactly how can you show that it takes more just because it's WiFi.

[plain kettle]

eh maybe thats worded weridly, meant to say sleepy thread device uses less power than a wifi varient

[green frost]

Both of you have forgotten that this conversation is concerning Nanoleaf and there are no battery devices.

[plain kettle]

nah fam, you made it about the thread spec

[green frost]

I did not. I made it about Nanoleaf dropping Thread from Shapes, Lines, etc.

[plain kettle]

big one that overshadows anything wifi could do is the fact sleepy end devices have their radios on all the time rather on occasions to send and recive data from the parent node

while keeping the credentals and link with the parent node

good luck doing anything similar with wifi, without having to do a whole computational intensive handshake procedure on WPA2/3

[green frost]

Why does Nanoleaf need edge routers?

[plain kettle]

to support their bulbs. and other nodes. it has the siliconlabs chip in it, may as well utilise it

there is a point where it can ONLY join whatever the preferred network in the apple keychain/google play services

but thats another convosation

[green frost]

It can phase those out while moving to Matter over WiFi.

[plain kettle]

i mean that seems to be the way they are going

but for their sense+ controller that is on the nanoleaf website, it makes sense to be thread/matter, super low power + its a end sleepy device

no idea what SOC tho, i only assume its the MG24 we all love

[green frost]

Who buys Nanoleaf that does not already own a device with an edge router?

[plain kettle]

people who dont realise what thread is, it happens

well, in the early days it was bad, back when google and amazon didnt support it

but you are always going to have people who just see it on store shelves and buy it without realizing the prerequisites

[green frost]

If that's the case, Nanoleaf can make a deal with Amazon to get them an Echo at no cost.

[plain kettle]

sure i guess

[green frost]

When you get tired you become rational. I don't care if we agree, I care only to have a polite civil conversation.

I don't even care when I'm proven wrong. That is one way I increase my knowledge.

[frigid saddle]

https://csa-iot.org/newsroom/matter-1-3-specification-released/

Matter 1.3: User Experience Enhancements: Command Batching: Common examples include minimizing the “popcorn effect” sometimes seen in smart lighting applications.

Will need to be implemented at the Matter Controller level as well to help. No controller from the major Ecosystems at Matter 1.2, maybe they skip that one.

[green frost]

Yes. Matter is a good application layer. It is transport independent and and can be used with Z-Wave, Zigbee and other lighting hardware.

[craggy plaza]

Home Assistant already uses Matter 1.2 since a long time. Home Assistant is already on the way to Matter 1.3, it’s already in Beta:

https://github.com/home-assistant-libs/python-matter-server/releases/tag/6.0.0b0

[frigid saddle]

Z-wave and zigbee, would need some major modifications to do so though right. They already include a native application layer built in, adding matter natively would take more storage, dev time and work than just iteratively optimizing thread, which is network only.

[frigid saddle]

Thanks, I have HA running alongside my Applehome. Wish HA would soon fully implement TREL on their thread offerings. I would assume that in my case with Apple Homepods/appletv being my primary Matter controllers and only TBR, HA going to Matter 1.3 won't help until Apple does so too.

[green frost]

They might, depending on how each vendor implemented the transport layer. A transport layer, such as WiFi and Thread listen for a data packet and hand it off to the application layer. In the case of Thread, the transport layer may also be told to pass it on to other Thread devices. That is the wonderful part about Thread.

However, some vendors didn't separate their layers and gummed up the works. They left no manner in which to let a Hue command be translated into a Z-Wave command. Thread has two major changes in the works but unfortunately there will be a lot of devices that will just never work properly.

[opal sparrow]

I didn't look that closely at it, but i think command batching is mostly about matter bridges - in order to send a command to multiple endpoints on a bridge which the bridge can turn into a single group command on the bridged protocol. Matter already supported native group commands for multiple separate devices.

(fun fact; the native group stuff is done via ipv6 multicast, and theoretically works across both wifi and thread matter devices)

but command batching might still be good for single devices. for example, changing a bulb's brightness and color at the same time. Those are two separate matter commands on different clusters, but you want them both to be applied together on the device as a single change.

the TREL stuff is on the thread layer, and is (mostly) unrelated to Matter spec updates. If you're only using the Apple devices as thread border routers, it doesn't matter what matter version they support at all, since the thread border router just passes through application-layer packets unmodified.

thread border router couldn't even poke at the packets if it wanted to, since the matter protocol is encrypted :)

fwiw, the matter spec was very heavily based on the ZCL ("ZigBee Cluster Library") specification, so translating between matter and zigbee in a bridge is relatively straightforwards. But the matter stack does add complexity for encryption, multi-admin support, and needing an IP protocol stack, which is why upgrading a zigbee device to become a matter/thread device isn't always possible.

[green frost]

I like Zigbee. They make some very nice hardware.

[opal sparrow]

... I have no idea why I clicked that "show blocked message" button. ZigBee isn't a brand that makes hardware. It's a trademark of the former ZigBee Alliance (now called the CSA - the same people as who specified Matter), and hardware is built by many other companies.

[green frost]

Okay, I should have written that as one sentence, I like the Zigbee hardware.

I have 15 switches ordered from Inovelli that will have Zigbee 3.0 and Matter 1.3.

[opal sparrow]

Anyways, I have… mixed feelings about ZigBee. device quality varies wildly, just like any other category of device, and unlike Matter, interoperability isn't really a concern. Companies make ZigBee devices designed to work with their own ZigBee hubs, and anything else is just a bonus (tho ZigBee Light Link helped… a bit). Home Assistant is just full of quirks and workarounds to make weird ZigBee devices usable.

[green frost]

That is one reason my current house is all Insteon. I have zero issues with Insteon.

[opal sparrow]

One amusing bit of hilarity that I saw recently is that IKEA's latest ZigBee scene controller remote actually uses a cluster from the Matter specification for its remote buttons. Which honestly is kinda neat; it means you get proper events for single, double, and long presses, but still… what a hack :)

[craggy plaza]

Oh nice. I really need events for double presses.

[opal sparrow]

their old single-button scene controller used bindings and pretended it was a dimmer. it sent an on command for single press, an off command for double press, and a "level change move start" command on long press start, and a "level change stop" command on long press release.

anyways, matter button events are pretty nice. pity there's so few matter/thread remotes out so far, especially multi-button ones; I suspect that power management might have been an issue there since support for "intermittently connected device" check-ins wasn't finalized in Matter 1.2.

[craggy plaza]

Are there any Matter over Thread remotes (except Inovelli, not available in Europe)?

[opal sparrow]

I think the only widely available one right now is the tuo smart button. which is only one button, and is really expensive.

[craggy plaza]

Yeah, but the TUO button has only one knob. I need some more. 😃

[opal sparrow]

also, after having used the older ikea remotes for a while, i'm getting sick of replacing cr2032 cells :)

it's imo kinda hilarious that the TUO button is useless for folks using google home and amazon alexa because those ecosystems don't support matter generic switches.

google and amazon just... didn't implement support in their ecosystems for doing something when you push a button on a matter device.

(tbh, maybe that is the main reason that there's so few matter switches out there)

[undone spire]

Most of the technical back and forth above has gone over my head but I will say this, as a consumer with technical knowledge (obviously not as much as you guys) the reason I chose nanoleaf over hue and others was because of thread support. In my opinion thread is nanoleafs biggest marketing asset (at the moment). If I wanted wifi devices I would have stuck with the cheap as chips mirebella genio line and if I wanted a locked in ecosystem that is associated with zigbee I would have gone with hue.
For once I agree with poshy whole heartedly.
Agreed about GW profile picture. It is very misleading, when I first started reading this discord I thought you were an admin... Should probably change it mate.

[frigid saddle]

You may be as well, but as a inovelli Thread/Matter beta tester they will not release with Matter 3.0 (assume you mean 1.3?). That will come later.

[frigid saddle]

Yes, I realize the TREL stuff is not in any way directly related to Matter. To be specific, I would like to add a HA thread radio to my apple thread network and not lose TREL as a result, which is my understanding of what would happen. But thats just a want not a necessity.

And maybe this has been discussed but seems like what we could all use is Matter Bindings to link multiple lights directly to each so they can function as one in a local network without the Matter controller have to contact each separately. None of the ecosystems have implemented the setup/control of that function in their controllers to the best of my knowledge.

[green frost]

I just realized it has been a year since the campaign closed. I was hoping it would hit 500K. I am also considering switching to the Z-Wave 800 Project Walt but I have a couple of months to decide.

[green frost]

That is the one function I like about Insteon. That feature just works.

[frigid saddle]

Apple is usually the slow poke with most new specs, but strangely they have implemented more of the Matter spec and in a more open way. Only apple makes OTA dev/beta updates to pre-certified Matter devices doable easily. Aside from HA, but they don't make firmware updates and such easy.

[swift phoenix]

Is this my savior Im looking for @opal sparrow

[swift phoenix]

The skyconnect has TREL already?

[frigid saddle]

I read yes a back but sevaral Home assistant forums stated no after real world use. That info is a few months old and I quit messing around with it until the dust clears some more.

[swift phoenix]

@mystic light Are you guys planning on releasing firmware with Matter 1.3 in the bulbs?

[opal sparrow]

I talk about this a bit in #1184371187464290344 message - the answer is "mostly not, the feature is mainly for bridges rather than separate matter devices"

matter already provides groups for separate matter devices... the controllers need to start supporting them :(

[swift phoenix]

Do you think if Apple supports it then it might help?

Like the 1.3

Is the HomePods considered bridges? Or is that only zigbee stuff

[opal sparrow]

a "bridge" is something that appears to the controller as a matter device, but actually talks to other devices using a different protocol. So stuff like the philips hue bridge.

[swift phoenix]

Oh I see. So like Aqara hub

[opal sparrow]

only the Aqara M3 hub. The earlier ones aren't Matter bridges :)

[swift phoenix]

I thought the camera were hubs for matter

[opal sparrow]

confusingly, the Aqara M3 hub is also a thread border router.

[swift phoenix]

I have zigbee devices ported through matter with them

[opal sparrow]

they don't mention matter as a feature on any of their camera hubs; are you sure it's not some other protocol, like homekit?

[swift phoenix]

Nah look up G3 camera

They have matter and the m2 hub as well

[opal sparrow]

yeah, that's what i'm looking at. it says it's a zigbee hub, but doesn't mention matter anywhere

[swift phoenix]

They got matter

I’m using it rn

Im@pretty sure they are bridges

It was an update

[opal sparrow]

oh, huh, website's out of date. added as a firmware update https://www.reddit.com/r/Aqara/comments/15g03mq/matter_for_g3/

looks like they're also updating the M2 hub, too.

so, yeah. what matter 1.3 does is if you have a zigbee light link group set up in the zigbee bridge, then separately group the same lights in your matter controller, then the matter controller can send a batch command for all the lights in the group, and the bridge can turn that into a zigbee light link group command.

kinda neat, but also seems like a pain to get set up properly.

[swift phoenix]

I’m just sad I wanted the Nanoleaf bulbs to work faster

I also really thought presence sensors were coming in this update

But they did kitchen stuff lol

[opal sparrow]

hmm? presence sensors were in matter 1.2

[swift phoenix]

Like I’m sorry no one is using that yet

They were? I thought they didn’t make it