Software Beta for Nanoleaf Essentials Matter

[void pulsar]

We have released a critical beta firmware for Nanoleaf Essentials Matter A19 and Matter Lightstrip. This tackles a lot of the thread reliability problems

Use this link to get the beta firmware
https://helpdesk.nanoleaf.me/en-US/how-do-i-sign-up-for-beta-software-updates-for-my-nanoleaf-lights-341522

Please reach out to us if you have questions or comments.

And definitely reach out to us if you find any issues with the new firmware 🙂

[eager frigate]

Just updated them all. I had me “setup” the bulbs again in the app. A few are unresponsive now but I’ll check them out tomorrow and see how it’s doing. I assume thread was trying to fix itself because a few of my BR30s went unreachable for a bit.

[deep notch]

I've updated one of my A19, I don't have time right now to update the others. Will do that after work and also some testing to check the stability and functionality

But right now, I don't have any problem

[lethal prism]

I’ve enrolled. Hopefully this fixes the problem on two light strips which can never connect via Thread

[azure fox]

Im still waiting for the update, to appear in my app. My GU10 lamps are disconnecting every 1-3 days from the Threads network. Hopefully this issue gets also fixed.
Which firmware do you have installed right now?

[brazen canyon]

Could someone from nanoleaf comment on what was changed in this firmware? It's well known that the existing, general release firmware is problematic.

One theory that I've seen was that the bulbs were crashing periodically, forgetting the subscription with the matter server, triggering a liveliness timeout, and then forcing the server to initiate a resubscribe.

The problem with device crashing is two fold 1) it destabilizes the thread network and 2) it forces the server to resubscribe. Both of these combined can lead to devices that are unreachable for various reasons.

From the logs I can see 3.6 has remedied the subscription issue in some way, but I don't have enough nanoleaf bulbs in my thread network, much less the beta, to test if they are still crashing/destabilizing the thread network

I have roughly 20 bulbs, but keep the actual paired number to about 8 to guarantee performance for my non nanoleaf thread devices and I'd like to actually use the others, so I'm curious if there's some explanation on this

[scenic grove]

We have been having issues so very happy there is a focus here. As of last night after the update we haven’t been able to keep any of the updated lights with the latest beta firmware on the thread network consistently since updating the 6 of them to 3.6.54. Hoping things balance out better today. I am seeing something that might be contributing to our instability. Somehow we have two Apple thread networks in the house all of the devices are attaching to one of them, and that’s the only one listed in the app as available for pairing under the more menu for the device when I click thread, this has a number of Nanoleaf border routers that joined the party. However, the other thread network has a bunch of Apple border routers in it with all but one of my Apple TVs and HomePods in there. I suspect I need to figure out how to collapse this back down to one network? Any tips? This seems like wizardly from a thread management perspective 🙂

[eternal hill]

Reset the devices and set Them up again.

They should use the thread network saved in your Keychain then

[scenic grove]

When they connect they connect to the one with the Nanoleaf boarder routers and seems to be the only one in the keychain

If I powercycle them they connect briefly

I see them go Bluetooth then thread

[eternal hill]

I mean your Apple devices, if you want all them to join the same network so you dont have two networks

[scenic grove]

Ahh got it

Yeah I’ll reset the HomePods and see if I can get them to settle in!

Looking around in the “Flame” app this am it seems the HomePods are the folks in the other thread network.

[civic elbow]

Hi! I have upgraded 9 out of my 12 bulbs to the new matter version. As I test for a few other companies I thought I would try & get on board whith NanoLeaf as I love the products. I will be updating in the next hour or so & keep you updated. Pre update problems i have found so far are: devices going offline intermitently, offline with Homekit but still working with Alexa for about a minute, then going offline with that too, however they connect faster to the Nanoleaf app more quickly than the other apps. also when asking to set the bulbs to daylight white (6500K) it is an off blue/white colour(on all bulbs) & the app shows it as warm white (2700K). i will report after testing when everything is updated.

Oh, by the way they are all A19

[dapper acorn]

The 2 bulbs I currently have running are far away from my existing thread network, and the other one I had been using was running great in my thread network. If I get the chance I’ll plug some of mine in, but I’ve had many unplugged as I plan to give them away as Christmas gifts.

[iron pawn]

Installed beta firmware on my bulbs, seems like it did actually fix something. I use Home Assistant as matter server + thread border router, with the older firmware, once every 15-20 seconds the bulb would go offline (unavailable) then immediately come back online, now it's been sitting stable for 5+ hours.

[civic elbow]

I have now installed the update on all of the compatible A19 lightbulbs and over the course of the last 30 minutes there have been no dropouts. When asked to change the lightbulbs to daylight white, however, it is still a blue/white light and the app displays this as being warm white. At 2700K instead of 6500K. The same colour mismatch also happens when you ask, simply for white or cool white.

[scenic grove]

Just reset all my HomePods and got down to a single thread network! Hopefully these stabilize now. I’ll keep an eye on it.

[civic elbow]

I was literally just going to ask about this before I read your post, I have six Apple devices which are on the same network as all my Nanoleaf bulbs. However, the echo four has set itself up on a separate network apparently. Do you think if I redo this with the echo, then it will also put it on the same network as everything else?

[scenic grove]

I don’t think the Amazon and Apple thread networks are playing nice yet from a shared credential perspective. I also have Amazon Eero and just turned off the thread on those for now.

[civic elbow]

Ah, nice to know it’s not just me 😂 thank you 👍

[spice harness]

Hello! Indeed we have fixed a periodic crash that we identified on previous firmware versions. Your diagnosis is pretty much spot on - the resubscribe you mention in "valid" cases (bulb gets powered off and back on via switch) should also be quite a bit faster than before.

[brazen canyon]

Awesome glad to hear it

[spice harness]

Thanks for the feedback, this is great to hear 🙂

[spice harness]

Credential sharing operates via the mobile OS (iOS in your case) and the degree of integration is up to the vendor's implementation in their mobile app. Apple shares their credentials with any app willing to integrate with those APIs, however Alexa doesn't read from nor write their credentials to that storage. Eero writes but doesn't read. cc @civic elbow

[civic elbow]

That answers that one for me, thank you for the explanation. This has made it a lot clearer in my mind. It has also stopped me from endlessly trying to test this and reset the device. So thank you for that. When the new ceiling light comes out will this be matter over thread as well please? I only want to know so that I can budget because I will be ordering a few of them.

[dapper acorn]

I just updated my devices, and I have some outstanding news!! My shapes now connect to my main thread network instead of hosting their own!

My essentials are still too far away from my border routers, but they updated and work just fine over Bluetooth

I will install a few of the matter strips and bulbs when I get the chance (close to the home hubs). Might take me a day or so to get them unboxed and on

[brazen canyon]

@spice harness can you comment on the beta period? Can you say how long between this beta and the general release?

[spice harness]

No problem! Our modular ceiling light (https://nanoleaf.me/en-US/products/ceiling-lights/skylight/) will be a WiFi product for now.

[civic elbow]

That’s ok, I can work with that. I’ll be putting them in the office, living room and maybe the kitchen.

[spice harness]

Depends on beta feedback and how quickly we get through some of the remaining items on our side - we're always a little weary of releasing things too close to the holidays so production release might roll into the new year.

[brazen canyon]

Makes sense, thanks!

[spice harness]

Sorry about that, firmware hadn't been rolled out to GU10s just yet. You should see it now, ping me if you don't.

[spice harness]

Thanks for mentioning this - we're aware and trying to determine the best solution. Different ecosystems (and sometimes even the same ecosystem, depending on where you are in the UI) send color commands differently. Currently our devices use the RGB LEDs when receiving HSL or XY color commands and the Cool/Warm White LEDs when receiving CCT color commands - this is likely the discrepancy you're seeing. Ideally, Matter ecosystems would simply send a CCT command in the scenarios where they want an actual CCT value to be displayed but this seems to unfortunately not always be the case.

[civic elbow]

No problem, I just thought I would hi light it in case it hadn’t been noticed.

[eternal hill]

Shouldn’t this be fixed within the csa then?

[dapper acorn]

It will probably be for the better to run it on WiFi. So far WiFi has worked great with smart home devices. Is it possible for you to give us any update on the upcoming hardware beta? Or is that confidential.

(To clarify I am referring to hardware betas for the newer releases, not the skylight)

[scenic grove]

It seems I’m still having some kind of wide impact to my Nanoleaf matter devices knocking them off Thread. I’ve lost a majority of them again. Powercycle brings them back for a little bit and they fall offline again. Is there a way to grab logs on my side?

[spice harness]

Vendors still have flexibility in how they choose to implement the spec, so long as they're compliant with it. It could be pushed with the CSA but it can be dangerous to make things too strict, even if it results in issues like this sometimes.

[spice harness]

No detailed updates at this time, but we'll be putting out a call for testers early in 2024 🙂

[dapper acorn]

Sounds good. I did already revive an email asking for signups, but I’m guessing a newer email will be sent in early 2024. Can’t wait!

[scenic grove]

They either show offline or they fake being online and have an “Unknown” thread connection. If I try to set it I get the name of the network with a bullet unselected - I select it and get error HM-2 dialog when I try to save. Powercycling brings it back on the proper thread network

[spice harness]

Sent you a DM so we can discuss details

[scenic grove]

Excellent just replied with the details.

[azure fox]

First impressions after installing the update. For your info I’m using 7 GU10 lamps with an Amazon Echo 4th generation Threads Network. After a couple of restarts, the lamps are connecting so much faster into the threads network after turning off and on again. No issues at all. Circadian Lightning works, color switching works, turning off and on via app and Alexa works also fine. I’m excited to see reliability in action in a long run test.

[lyric panther]

I'm testing a single Matter bulb. I'm controlling it through HomeKit app, and via a Hue dimmer switch configured in hk and a Shelly control flashed with hk firmware. It seems to be responsive as expected.

Is there anything else we could be trying/checking?

[edgy tusk]

@void pulsar @spice harness as of currently the update for the essentials only made them lose connection

Stability actually went down instead of up

[median vortex]

I registered my devices on 13 12 2023 07:30 but in iOS app i don’t have new update.

@void pulsar

[dapper acorn]

Mine are also now having connectivity issues, but I am using Bluetooth to connect, not a matter hub

[brazen canyon]

Mine are still working well

[spice harness]

Sent you a DM for collecting specific details. Are they unreachable through a Matter ecosystem, Nanoleaf app, or both?

[spice harness]

By "registered" you mean opted into beta on the forum? Feel free to DM me the serial numbers and current firmware versions for the devices you're not seeing an update for and I can take a look into it.

[spice harness]

Sent you a DM

[spice harness]

Long-term reliability testing is the main thing we're interested in with this update, but definitely report anything you run into during daily usage.

[median vortex]

Lightstripe N21160LB753 firmware 1.6.49

[red sedge]

@spice harness Sent yo one serial # of my 5 A19’s that are all beta registered but on 1.6.49 with no updates available.

[swift phoenix]

Nanoleaf I have been noticing this weird behavior when sharing the matter bulbs with Home Assistant. There seems to be a delay in the light toggle showing up as on. None of my other matter devices have this issue. It only seems to be Nanoleaf. Also, there is a delay when turning a bunch of them on at once. Can you guys please look into this issue as it causes complex automations to not run reliably.

I am on the latest beta release

My LED is a hue lightstrip and the Cubes are Yeelight matter cubes

everyhthing else is nanoleaf

This behavior has occurred since the bulbs were released

[spice harness]

Ah, there are currently no updates available for the older non-Matter bulbs and strips. 1.6.49 is latest for those. cc @red sedge

[spice harness]

Are you using a physical Home Assistant device as your border router or do you have other border router(s) in your setup? Any other Thread devices in your home?

[swift phoenix]

Just apple tv and homepod minis as border routers

I have some eve devices

Also when I click the toggle switch the response in real life is instant. Its just the registering in Home Assistant is delayed

[civic elbow]

just to let you know I am impressed with the response time I am away from home & i have been testing the connection The response for turning on is roughly 1.5 seconds, turning off is about 2 seconds & changing brightness & colour temperature/hue is about 2 seconds this is both on wifi (which is only a 56mb connection) & 4G (there is 1 bar on the iphone). definately an improvement.

[swift phoenix]

However, when I toggle it from homekit and watch the toggle switch move it turns on the same time as the little lamp icon turns on. But, its still a delayed toggle from the instant I tap the button in homekit. The reaction is instant in real life still

[brazen canyon]

It's the same for me in HA in that the response is instant but the UI feedback is delayed. That seems more like a HA issue than a NL problem

Actually it's even slightly delayed in the NL app too

[swift phoenix]

Just wondering then why does it not occur with zigbee devices?

[dapper acorn]

Can you pin this by any chance? I am setting up and resetting a few devices and it would be helpful to have pinned

[brazen canyon]

This is actually most likely related to latency in issuing the command via the thread network. If you just ping your bulbs you'll notice sometimes packets can take a bit, and in the HA channel there's quite a bit of variation in packet travel amongst different setups. I get about 65ms average and others I've seen up to 120ms.

@spice harness any chance of a future update bringing light color along with a turn on command? Stability on 3.6 has been great for me so far so glad to see that improvement

[swift phoenix]

This please!

[void pulsar]

I did pin my message
Is that not what you are seeing?

[dapper acorn]

Oh, I’m sorry. On mobile it is hard to locate pins after the discord update

Ahh, just realized I have to click “software beta for Nanoleaf…” then click settings, then click pinned messages.

[swift phoenix]

Here is also a video to iterate the difference

[real schooner]

When I try to launch the app it says the beta has expired and TestFlight says the developer has removed me as a tester. What have I done to suffer such an indignity?

[spice harness]

Possible explanation - I would be interested to know if there are non-Nanoleaf Thread devices in the setup that show different behaviour.

[spice harness]

By this you mean the ability to assign a default colour for the device to go to when receiving an On command when previously in the Off state?

[real schooner]

Any assistance would be appreciated…

[brazen canyon]

So this is what happens. In HA the UI only changes when there's a device that reports back so there's no proactive assumption that the command worked. I've heard anecdotally that NL lights have slower response times than other matter over thread devices

If the report back is 150ms it can make the UI seem unresponsive

NL is the only devices I have with main power so I can't really test that

[brazen canyon]

No.

Here's a hypothetical, I have 2 bulbs at warm white and turn them off.

Now suppose I have a scene where those bulbs are pink and green. Ideally I would activate that scene , the lights would turn on as those colors or otherwise changing during the transition period from off to on.

It seems you can do this from nanoleaf, but at least in home assistant, you can't issue a light on and color command simultaneously and have it work. Issuing turn on + color results in the lights turning on at the previous color. Then you must issue an additional command to change colors.

This behavior works correctly in the nanoleaf app, but I'm not sure if it's actually using matter over thread for that since there's some other protocol for things supported by NL but not matter (like animated scenes)

[swift phoenix]

Yes I was having the same issue. If I walk into my room I want my lights to turn on AND be a certain color. The Nanoleaf bulbs would turn on but not change color unless I ran the automation again while the lights were on. In other devices you such as hue bulbs you are able to have the bulbs in an off state while still being able to change the color when they are issued to turn on

Also in the HomeKit automations I had this issue to

If the bulbs were off and I said Siri turn the lights purple maybe a 1/3 or the bulbs would follow that command. Or I have even some turn on and then about 1/2 a second later change color

[spice harness]

Is this the standard public beta Testflight app or possibly a Testflight build from a closed hardware beta?

[real schooner]

I believe it was from an ongoing hardware beta, build 9.6.0 (549). I messaged Faisal about it but have yet to receive a response. Am currently unable to open the app.

[dapper acorn]

From what I’m hearing it sounds like every issue with the new bulbs the old bulbs could do just fine. It seems like the new bulbs smart controller is acting very differently to the old one

[swift phoenix]

Here is the exact issue

See that dealy in action

Seems that 1 bulb worked off the bat

The other 2 were delayed

[brazen canyon]

Maybe there should be some sort of mechanism for us to report things to nanoleaf. I understand a lot of these things are out of scope for this hardware release

(the whole light color behavior isn't being addressed in 3.6. but we don't really have a way to report these things)

[dapper acorn]

It would be great to have a “report” button in the app that gathers the past 5 minutes of data from the device and light and sends it to Nanoleaf along with a message

Or at least the dev/testflight version

[spice harness]

Understood, this makes sense. Matter spec allows for colour commands to be sent while a device is off without turning the device on such that when it next turns on it can take on the new state. Theoretically (unless there is indeed a bug on our side, which is entirely possible) all a Matter admin would need to do is reverse the order of these commands for the expected state to appear right away. Matter admins also usually completely serialize everything (as expected) so they're sending ON, waiting for a response, then sending the colour command.

Not saying that we can't fix or improve on this on our side - just theorizing.

[swift phoenix]

Could entirely be a latency timing issue in sending the commands

As you can see in this video with this latest beta, turning colors from off state and then starting them up works

So ideally maybe sending the Color command before the Power command would be ideal?

[spice harness]

Testflight allows this to some extent but definitely provides less detail than we would like if it's anything other than an app-only issue - fleshing out our bug reporting system is one of the many things on our list to improve and is better in some areas than others. Discord has been pretty good for discussion and I think leveraging topics within a forum here would probably be ideal for something like this so that way we can centralize discussion around specific feature requests or bug reports rather than having a scattering of bug reports from individuals that we then need to coalesce after the fact.

[brazen canyon]

I can check and see if there's a way to verify which order they're sent in that case

[spice harness]

I believe so.

[swift phoenix]

Last request. Is it possible to have a fading transition into different colors like hue bulbs do? Rather than the instant effect currently? Could this be a toggled setting in the app?

[real schooner]

Received a reply from Faisal, thanks for responding.

[spice harness]

This is actually firmly in the court of every Matter admin and I'm rather frustrated that none of them have made a change for this yet despite us pushing. In order to remain in compliance with the spec, we must respect the TransitionTime value provided as part of the command they send. Most admins send 0 and don't allow users to configure it, which means that we are forced to transition instantaneously for things like colour and brightness. We set our own transition time when sending commands via the Nanoleaf app (assuming you've paired in there and not just in Apple Home) which is why the behaviour is different.

[swift phoenix]

Ahh makes sense. That is quite annoying. The color and power command thing is able to be adjusted by the admin though correct?

[spice harness]

Yep, they have full control over it

[swift phoenix]

Interestingly enough my Yeelight Matter WiFi bulbs have the same issue with turning the power on first and then color changing. They are just a bit faster at doing it

Running an automation via Home Assistant to turn both color and power on at the same time results in them just turning on. Running the automation again then turns them blue

[swift phoenix]

This is some issues we have been discussing in the Home Assistant Discord with some matter bulbs. It seems color changes with powering up are a bit broken.

HomeKit Allows you to change the state of the Nanoleaf bulb while it’s off. Home Assistant does not allow this behavior, it just turns the bulb on when you try to tap a color. Interestingly the Yeelight WiFi bulbs do not allow you to change the color in the off state in HomeKit, they just turn on as well.

So we are not sure if this is a Matter Spec issue or a vendor issue?

[swift phoenix]

Speaking with an individual it seems that Home Assistant is set as “Color Change —> Power”yet HomeKit is “Power —> Color Change”. If this is the case then it will be interesting to see if you guys run into the issues home assistant has when switching to “Color Change —> Power”

He modified the matter code in Home Assistant to set it to “Power —> Color Change” and it behaves similar to how HomeKit behaves.

[eternal hill]

How are all nanoleaf specific things actually send to the bulbs? Are you using custom clusters or have you implemented your own protocol?

[still phoenix]

Have 3 matter bulbs. They worked well before the beta firmware upgrade. Now, I struggle constantly with the bulbs being unreachable. Anything I can do now? The only way for me to get them working right now is to power off and on my Apple TV 4K

[spice harness]

This discrepancy is possibly due to the ExecuteIfOff Options field being set differently between us and Yeelight. That field is up to the vendor. The behaviour of ExecuteIfOff being set to 0 is that if a device receives Color Change -> Power, Color Change will simply not occur and then Power will be executed. Notably ExecuteIfOff is a default set by the vendor, but a Matter admin can provide a OptionsMask and OptionsOverride that can change this behaviour to optimize for the way in which the Matter admin sends commands. I don't think I've seen a single admin make use of these fields yet.

[spice harness]

Assuming you've setup first in the Nanoleaf app or gone through the "complete setup" step, we use our own protocol. One of the big reasons we did this is because Matter does not have Bluetooth fallback and we viewed that as a requirement so that our devices could work even in the absence of a border router.

[eternal hill]

But doesn’t that mean that the devices share bandwith with Bluetooth?

Resulting in a reduced Thead bandwith?

[spice harness]

Possibly, although we always connect over Thread if it's available. The only thing we rely on Bluetooth for when Thread is present currently is updating (which is why we prompt you to keep your phone in the same room during the update).

[swift phoenix]

Will you let us know what behavior you find when changing the parameters to Color —> Power. Maybe we can somehow test it out too.

[spice harness]

Sent a DM

[brazen canyon]

To follow up on this, looks like this did fix the behavior once OptionsMask and OptionsOverride were set so thanks for pointing this out!

[swift phoenix]

I still believe they should look into the HomeKit issue with changing Color —> Power. That is a separate issue.

[void pulsar]

We have logged this issue internally
Interesting find

[void pulsar]

I want to do dive deeper with you on this issue so I have to collect a few information from you.

I will DM you 🙂

[edgy tusk]

Disconnect, power, and reconnect power

It happened to me

After you do that, they get a fresh connection

[craggy plaza]

Hi, here you find some information about my Thread network:

#1118238502203703349 message

Yesterday I added the following Nanoleaf Matter bulbs to my Thread network:

3x Nanoleaf GU10
2x Nanoleaf E27

24 hours later everything worked as expected. No unavailable messages and no re-meshing of my Thread network.

So I updated and paired more E27 bulbs to my Thread network. Now I have running:

3x Nanoleaf GU10
9x Nanoleaf E27

I had two bulbs that didn’t pair to HA. I had to delete them in ’iOS settings > General > Matter accessories‘ to get them to work. All bulbs paired to Apple Home without issues.

For me only the following order works:

1. Update the bulb to 3.6.54
2. Remove the bulb from the Nanoleaf app
3. Remove the bulb from all Matter fabrics
4. Remove the bulb from iOS settings > General > Matter accessories
5. Pair the bulb to Apple Home and share the bulb with Home Assistant
6. Pair the bulb with the Nanoleaf app again

When I pair the bulb to the Nanoleaf app, then to Apple Home and in the last step to Home Assistant, I can’t pair the bulb to Home Assistant. But the 6 steps always worked for me.

In the Flame/Discovery mDNS browsers I recognized that some entries weren’t removed, even though I deleted the bulbs completely. What can be the reason for this?

I decided to remove my two hardwired Apple TV 3. Gen from current. I waited a bit until all mDNS entries were gone in Flame/Discovery and plugged them back in.

It took nearly an hour to mesh completely. In the Nanoleaf app I saw, that some bulbs changed their roles (Mesh Extender <> Child). Now it seems to be stable. Let’s wait one day… 😉

[dull dagger]

Hey so far the new beta FW is mostly positive! Thanks for that. Only thing to mention is that one of led strips may be randomly(?) turning on. It is also happens to be the device that is the most furthest from a thread border router so could be related. Thanks again

Also, I was on the impression that the nanoleaf 4d would also become a thread border router. However that has not happened yet. Is this something that will come in the future or is it not planned?

[spice harness]

Version 3.6.70 has been released to beta, please update and let us know if it's working any better or worse for you than 3.6.54 or the previous production firmware 🙂 Particularly interested in the folks I've spoken to who were seeing issues - @still phoenix @scenic grove @dapper acorn

[scenic grove]

I'll get on it now! 🙂

[dapper acorn]

I’ll update as soon as I have time

[brazen canyon]

Any notes on target changes? General stability and responsiveness?

[spice harness]

Yep, we're actually rolling back one of the changes to see if it was the culprit for making things worse in some environments. Fun process diagnosing this stuff when some of you are saying it's a lot better and some are saying it's worse 🙃

[spice harness]

also, sent you a DM regarding your environment

[dull dagger]

Nice just updated.

[swift phoenix]

Did you guys test out the color change option in this build?

[eternal hill]

What does it exactly fix? I have a lot of connections that still time out on 3.6.54

[swift phoenix]

True. I think it would benefit us if you were more transparent on what was exactly changed. It might give us an opportunity to help out more.

[eternal hill]

Well might also be the opposite, since everyone is focused on that behaviour and the brain is not “objective”

But I would like to know at least 😁

[dapper acorn]

The new firmware fixes many of the issues on my matter connected bulb. The HomeKit app always works, no issues. Except the HomeKit ui lags abit when color switching (I’m assume not a Nanoleaf issue). The Nanoleaf app is now controlling the light much smoother. On and off works great, and changing color is fast and smooth. The only issue I can find right now is that when the app is changing the color of the light, and the small loading wheel appears, the light will change instantly, but the app still has the loading wheel. If you change the color again it changes, but the wheel remains for a few seconds. If you close the UI when the loading wheel is up the app can no longer change the light color or power state (HomeKit app still works). And the only way to fix it is to close and open the app. But now I don’t have to power cycle the light!

I will try to update my lights that are far from my router when I get the chance. I also sent you a response to your DM a few days ago, but I know you are very busy, 😁

Also, not sure what’s up with the holiday lights, but when I get on a different WiFi network than them the app tells me to finish setup, but I already have.

(Sorry, might be wrong place to post)

[swift phoenix]

I have noticed this too with the matter bulbs

[dapper acorn]

Just happened to one of my matter bulbs after updating.

I have just updated my bulbs that are not on any network (Bluetooth control). And they are having trouble working. They will only connect to the Nanoleaf app if the app is open, and then the light switch (dumb switch) is powered on.

The lights then only work for about 3 to 7 seconds before no longer being reachable.

They connect slightly better when my phones WiFi is off, but still don’t work well and disconnect after a few seconds.

But I would assume it’s mainly because they aren’t on a real network.

[eternal hill]

I have noticed that the state updates faster when I change the state in Apple home and home assistant. However it seemed like the lights were super reliable before when changing the state the “first time” before (meaning when the light has been in its current state for a long time). Now there is often a bulb that’s not responding.

However I also “setup” some bulbs in the Nanoleaf app on two phones now, since they seemed to have “forgotten” that they have been setup with the Nanoleaf app already. Are they trying to connect to both phones right now?

[dull dagger]

Hey just wanted to report that I'm still experiencing random on of the devices

[scenic grove]

I’m still having bulbs fall offline and arnt reachable until a powercycle. Since updating this morning I’ve lost 4 of the 6 bulbs. They come back very quickly when powercycled.

[swift phoenix]

I kind of wish we could somehow split the testers by there Border router setups

So we can isolate things better

[brazen canyon]

You can create a post at the root of the beta-forum if you want

Here's one for Google https://discord.com/channels/837773208027529287/1186414005967913162

Here's one for apple

https://discord.com/channels/837773208027529287/1186414253436051457

[craggy plaza]

I updated 11 of my bulbs to the current beta firmware. That’s my current Nanoleaf setup:

5 GU10 Matter over Thread
6 A19 (E27) Matter over Thread

Update procedure was without issues. It took one hour to update one bulb after the other.

I restarted my two hardwired AppleTV (4K 3rd Gen) TBRs to start clean.

2 hours later I still saw unavailable messages in Home Assistant. But maybe my Thread network was/is still in the meshing process. I also have 35 EVE devices (22 Matter, 13 HomeKit over Thread).

I also saw some bulbs just switching on, without doing anything.

[swift phoenix]

Can you create one for HA Skyconnect/HA Yellow Border Router

[worthy grove]

For me, the new beta 3.6.70 seems to be a step forward. With 3.6.54 I had delays on some GU10‘s then switching a group of 8 bulbs on/off or changing the color. That is now gone and all bulbs are reacting almost synchronous now. 👍

I‘ve the following devices in my Thread Network

• 2x ATV 4K, 2x HomePod Mini, 1x Nest Hub Max, 1x Nest Hub as BR‘s - all forming a single Thread network
• 15x GU10 and 1x E27 bulb
• 9x Eve Motion Blinds & 1x Eve Energy - all with Matter firmware
• 6x Aqara P2 Door & Window Sensors

I‘ve also shared all devices from Apple Home to a Homey Pro 2023.

Edit: One of my GU10 did a reset and was unresponsive for a few minutes. I’ll keep an eye on that. 🧐

[brazen canyon]

No because that's just asking for trouble, we already know if you only have those your config is nigh guaranteed to be unstable

[swift phoenix]

Guess that’s true

[still phoenix]

Not positive 😦 --> I've update my 3 lightbulbs to the newest firmware. It worked for 5 minutes after the upgrade. Now, they all dropped, all marked as "unreachable" in the Nanoleaf app and none shows up in the nRF Connect app. Not a success for me.

[craggy plaza]

For me it seems to work for 3 hours without major instabilities with my 46 Thread devices. At least I don't see 'unavailable' logs in Home Assistant. That is already a big milestone. 😄

I have 3 GU10 bulbs in a not so much used room. One bulb switched 'on' by its own without me doing anything. So I switched it 'off' via Home Assistant. Shortly after that, it got unavailable.

8:42:05 PM - I rebooted all my Thread Border Routers (2 hardwired Apple TV 4K 3rd Gen)
8:43:55 PM - Home Assistant found the bulb via mDNS
8:49:34 PM - the bulb turned 'on' on its own
11:54:11 PM - I reconized that the bulb is on and switched it 'off' by the Home Assistant app
11:57:46 PM - the bulb 'became unavailable'
11:58:26 PM - Home Assistant found the bulb via mDNS

[craggy plaza]

I just happened to see that apparently one of the bulbs I disconnected from current today is not up to date, but still on firmware 3.2.0 according to the Nanoleaf app. All bulbs that are not connected to Thread in the following screenshot are removed from current.

https://imgur.com/a/P3WCUEP

But Home Assistant shows the right firmware version 3.6.54:

https://imgur.com/a/AY89vw8

Not a big issue, but I thought it’s good to report it here.

I needed to remove 5 of 16 bulbs from current to get my Thread network (round about 50 devices) back to stable.

With 8 Nanoleaf Matter bulbs (3.6.54) and 35 EVE devices it was stable. So I decided to install 8 more bulbs. But that forced my Thread network to re-mesh in a constant loop for hours, until I decided to decrease the number of bulbs from 16 to 11 by removing them from power. After that you came around with the new firmware, which I installed directly. At the moment it still looks good. When it’s stable for at least 24 hours, I can install more bulbs step by step.

[true fable]

Does anyone know if there is a changelog for the beta releases?

[eternal hill]

My girlfriend figured out now that its not her forgetting to turn the bulbs off, but that they turn on themselves. Does nanoleaf sponsor some chocolate for me?

[civic elbow]

So far so good with the firmware. The bulbs are responsive, working with Alexa and HomeKit. I’ve been using signals which works well and also working well with matter door/window sensor. I was surprised pleasantly when they were controllable even when my internet went down.

[dull dagger]

Changing the remember power off state has "solved" the random light on issue for me.

[craggy plaza]

Not solved, only a workaround. The question is: What is the reason behind this? Maybe the bulb has a power loss, because of a buffer overflow, or something like that… And as a result, the bulb switches on after it started again.

Some of us from the Home Assistant Community analyzed this behavior with the help of a Home Assistant dev. But when it happens it doesn’t log anything. So, we don’t know what really happens. Whatever… it shouldn’t happen. 😉

[eternal hill]

From my home assistant logs it seems like the bulb goes offline -> then connects again and then turns on

[steady crescent]

I have a total of 24 Nanoleaf bulbs on a single thread network. After installing 3.6.70 I've seen at least 4 instances of a bulb that are part of a Homekit group spontaneously turn on while other lights in the group remain off. As far as I can tell my thread network is stable and there have been no problems with house power. What could cause a bulb to power on without a command?

[brazen canyon]

@dull dagger are you also running apple border routers?

[dull dagger]

#1186414005967913162 message

Mostly Google

[brazen canyon]

Hm seems the light issue isn't dependent on the environment then

I actually just got the mysterious bulb on now as well

[craggy plaza]

I am interested to have a look at your logs. Can you post it here or alternatively in our home assistant Nanoleaf beta firmware thread? Thanks 😊

[craggy plaza]

I have 11 bulbs paired and I saw it happen twice since the firmware update 20 hours ago.

[brazen canyon]

I second this hypothesis:

2023-12-19 10:03:51 core-matter-server chip.DMG[126] ERROR Subscription Liveness timeout with SubscriptionID = 0xf5a59050, Peer = 01:0000000000000002
2023-12-19 10:03:51 core-matter-server matter_server.server.device_controller.[node 2][126] INFO Previous subscription failed with Error: 50, re-subscribing in 0 ms...

Same behavior occurs on the existing general release firmware when a bulb crashes, except on the current firmware it's turning on when it reconnects

specifically, it turns on when the resubscribe succeeds

[craggy plaza]

@thorny egret I am unsure, if this is the right place to report this. Maybe it’s a Nanoleaf iOS App issue. I use the TestFlight version 10.2.0 (579). I recognized that the ’Power Loss Recovery‘ controls do not show up always. I made two screenshots that show that behavior. It’s the same bulb:

https://imgur.com/a/1tPbXt7

When you follow the Imgur link, you will see 2 screenshots.

Thanks

[craggy plaza]

Why do you see this in your logs and I don’t? 😃 Do you have Apple Thread Border Routers, too? Are you using any other Thread Radio with your Home Assistant, e.g. SkyConnect?

[brazen canyon]

No I've got 2x Google BR, 1 nanoleaf BR, 1 skyconnect

[craggy plaza]

Ok, I'm not sure if I can ever remember the environments of people where I only know the nickname.

Maybe you get those logs, because of your Thread Border Router devices:

I described my setup here:

#1186414253436051457 message

[brazen canyon]

No it should be in the matter logs

[craggy plaza]

Yes, I looked through the logfile, but there is nothing related to this issue at the respective time stamp.

Home Assistant dev falstaff321 had the same results. His light also came on by itself tonight. But there was nothing to see in the log.

[brazen canyon]

I believe the latest firmware was supposed to fix the crashes from happening, and then additionally do a proactive resubscribe even if it did. Perhaps yours crashed and managed the proactive resubscribe but mine didn't for some reason

If your crashed bulb did a proactive resubscribe, then it wouldn't show as an error on the logs - you'd need to do a debug level log capture

[craggy plaza]

Aha…, ok, thanks for the enlightenment! 😊

Do I have to activate the debug log level of the Matter add-on or the integration?

[brazen canyon]

Mine was just on the default, but If you enable debug you might be able to catch something? It's very verbose so ymmv

You'll have to ssh in and tail the log or something

[brazen canyon]

I think I can reproduce the bulb crashing that others have been experiencing, I think it's related to the nanoleaf app itself.

[craggy plaza]

How did you come to this conclusion?

[brazen canyon]

I'm still collecting some info so I'll report back when I know more

[brazen canyon]

@spice harness regarding the bulb randomly turning on, I think I'm able to trigger it and I believe it can be triggered bythe nanoleaf app and some duration I can't pin down. This is on Android.

1. Force close the nanoleaf app
2. Wait some period of time (20 minutes, maybe less)
3. Open nanoleaf app
4. Observe that at least one bulb will crash

I don't think the app is the root cause (other users surely weren't opening their nanoleaf apps at 1am I'm assuming), but it can at least trigger the crash. Maybe related to the app polling devices somehow?

Edit: it seems the time limit is irrelevant, just force closing and opening the app a few times is enough to trigger for me

[void pulsar]

Can you reproduce this 100% of the time or it is only sometimes?

[brazen canyon]

Very consistently

I hardly ever use the app but it points to a problem

Seems to be a matter problem actually since it took down my string lights

[craggy plaza]

Great finding by @brazen canyon! I can acknowledge and reproduce that behavior. Had to force close the app 4 times, before one of my bulbs switched on.

Oh, I see 3 of my 11 bulbs switched on. 😂

The great thing with this is, that they still work immediately after that crash. With general available firmware versions, nothing worked after a bulb crashed.

I tried it with both apps (beta and general available). It’s the same behavior with both.

Ah, I see, both apps are version 10.2.0 now.

[terse linden]

@thorny egret I have two bulbs setup on the newest frameware and for some reason they cannot connect to Alexa. They are both initially setup through Nanoleaf app, then connected to Apple HomeKit, and I’m using the pairing mode from HomeKit to attempt to pair with Alexa. Any ideas?

[craggy plaza]

When I woke up today, I had 4 unavailable devices in Apple Home and Home Assistant:

• 2 Nanoleaf Essentials (A19 E27)
• 2 EVE Thermos

The first bulb came back after removing from current. But the second bulb did not. So I removed the batteries from my EVE Thermos. Both EVE Thermos also came back immediately. After that I removed the bulb from current again. This time it worked. I think that bulb was in the Thread Router (Mesh Extender) role and the EVE Thermos were connected to it.

So I had a stable uptime of 1day and 6hours with my 11 Nanoleaf bulbs.

Yesterday evening I enabled the Power Loss Recovery (PLR) setting for all my bulbs. Now I am unsure, if there is a dependency (at least when it happens on its own, not by force closing the Nanoleaf app):

• PLR disabled: state change after bulb crash to ’on‘
• PLR enabled: state change after bulb crash to ’unavailable‘

The next bulb became unavailable 1 hour ago. Removing from current worked.

The current beta firmware is still not ready for prime time, even though it’s much better as the general available firmware. 😉

[azure fox]

Hey everyone,

following issues i recognized during testing:

1. When i control my GU10 lamps with Alexa, the state of the lamps (on, off or color) does not get updated in the nanoleaf app. For example, I turned on the lamps with alexa, the lamps are still shown off in the nanoleaf app.

2. When the lamps are not used for a time, it seems, that the lamps are turning into a "sleep" mode. That means, that the lamps are having no active threads connection (Maybe they loose sometimes their connection and are not trying to reconnect). It does not mean, that the lamps have to be turned off. So they can be turned on or off.
   Now then I want to use the lamps, lets say with alexa, more than half of the lamps are not functional at this point (see my image in the next message). After maybe 10-30 seconds, the lamps are reconnecting to the threads network and I can send a new command and when they all functional. In the end I think they have something like a cold boot time, that is not nice.

Both issues are not related to alexa. Same in the nanoleaf app.

Maybe somebody at@thorny egret have an answer to my issues.

[eternal hill]

I have 3 eve thermos. They often go offline, even when there are no nanoleaf products in my network.

[craggy plaza]

I have 9 EVE Thermos and this was the first time since half a year, that they were offline. 😉 Round about half a year ago I bought some EVE Energies (mains powered Thread Routers) to fill the holes in my Thread Mesh network. Since then and the EVE Matter updates that came that time my Thread network was rock solid, just how it was before Matter. I always only had issues, when Nanoleaf Essentials came into play. But however, the new firmware is really a big step forward. Only 3 bulbs from 11 have gone offline in round about one and a half day. We are short before a really good firmware. 😄

[craggy plaza]

You will probably have to remove the fuse if you don’t have a light switch and don't want to get a ladder every time.

[eternal hill]

Mine often go offline in HomeAssistant. My point was just that there might be something else wrong with them thats not related to nanoleaf.

[craggy plaza]

Yes, I understand what you wrote. I am sure that the Nanoleafs were the reason for this, even though I don't have a logfile as a proof. They are not connected to Home Assistant. This will not change until the Matter update for the EVE Thermos arrives. They are Apple Home only at the moment.

By the way... I disabled the Power Loss Recovery (PLR) for my bulbs again one hour ago. I would like to check whether the following idea is correct or not:

• PLR disabled: state change after bulb crash to ’on‘
• PLR enabled: state change after bulb crash to ’unavailable‘

With PLR enabled 3 bulbs have gone unavailable.

• I enabled PLR with an uptime of 1 day and 6 hours of Nanoleaf Essentials active in my Thread network. I only had some lights switching on in this phase, but no unavailable devices.
• I disabled PLR 17 hours after I enabled it again, because I had 3 unavailable Nanoleaf Essentials und 2 unavailable EVE Thermos.

Let's wait one or two days or until the next beta firmware arrives. I am not going to use the Nanoleaf app in this phase. I'm curious to see what happens. 😉

[spice harness]

Hi all, sorry I haven't had much time to respond the past couple days.

A few announcements/updates:

• Lights turning on "randomly" + PLR behaviour is well understood on our end and will be fixed in the next release which we're aiming to get out by Friday at the latest, possibly tomorrow - thanks for all the details around this one.
• We're working hard to get to the bottom of the stability issues in some of your setups but unfortunately it's looking like we won’t get to a resolution until the new year. Even if our team works night and day, there are some components affecting this issue specifically that are outside of our control and that we cannot expedite. My sincere apologies to those of you who have experienced regressions from the current production firmware, hoping to make it up to you all ASAP.
• All of the Nanoleaf folks will be offline next week and new year’s day for the holidays, back online January 2nd - we appreciate your patience while we recover for a bit before diving back into development 🙂

[eternal hill]

Do you know what causes the stability issues? Could there be a temporary workaround like fx not using Google BR’s?

[craggy plaza]

Great, thanks for keeping us informed.

I am looking forward to the next firmware update. Then we'll have something to do over the next few days. I've always wanted to break the lights for Christmas. Joking aside. 😉

You're making really good progress! Keep up the good work!

[spice harness]

At least one scenario of instability seems to be exacerbated by extremely busy Bluetooth environments - so unless you can build a Faraday cage around your living area, there isn't really a workaround for that case unfortunately.

[eternal hill]

So is this specific to Bluetooth or 2.4ghz in general?

[spice harness]

Thanks for the support, appreciate it 🙂 Speaking of being informed, I'll make sure that we post release notes for each version and pin them in this channel so they're easily accessible.

[spice harness]

This is one of the questions we're still trying to answer.

[eternal hill]

Fair enough, but this is something you think will be improved by Friday?

Otherwise I could maybe change my thread channel

[spice harness]

No, fixing this will spill into the new year.

[craggy plaza]

2.4GHz WiFi, ZigBee, Thread and Bluetooth: All these technologies share the same 2.4GHz frequency band and can interfere with each other.

My environment is configured around channel 25. Before I was using Thread, that frequency was in use by my ZigBee network. Now it looks as follows:

• Thread network is on channel 25
• ZigBee HueBridge is on channel 20
• WiFi APs use the 2.4GHz channels 1/6/11
• Only Bluetooth device in use is one headset

So the Thread channel 25 has very low interference by the WiFi channel 11. I do not have interfering neighbors, instead I have a big garden… 😃

[brazen canyon]

@spice harness is the "light turning on" related to the device crashing and the app causing the light to crash or something else?

Also I'll share my appreciation with the transparency I know many of us have been struggling with issues with the bulbs so it's nice to have insight as to what's going on

[dull dagger]

thanks Nanoleaf! Customer services does not get any better than this.

[spice harness]

Related to the device crashing.

[azure fox]

The main reason for the Matter standard is to solve this kind of compatibility issues with Alexa, HomeKit, Google Home… . So hopefully this isn’t a problem in future.

[craggy plaza]

One bulb switched on tonight, even though I didn’t use the Nanoleaf app after disabling PLR yesterday evening. But all bulbs were available.

[eternal hill]

Did you close the app on your phone or just "exit" it?

[craggy plaza]

I forced closed the app yesterday at 16:40. I am not going to open the app until we get the next firmware update.

[rustic zephyr]

Could any help me out here please! I downloaded firmware 3.6.70 in all my light bulbs 3 A19 and 6 BR 30, I can never make them work in Apple home, as soon as I add the thru the Nanoleaf app and HomeKit they all are “no response” even before the firmware update. They were working kind of fine before, some of the went to an “unknown” network, so I proceeded to delete the entire home and start again from scrap, and ever since my bulbs won’t work in Apple home, even they are added thru the normal process and immediately they are “no response”. In the other hand, in the Nanoleaf app they are added with no problem along with the Apple home app and they join my thread network but after a few moments they stop responding and it shows me a message telling me to reboot them by turning the of and on again!
I’m so tired I’ve hard reseted them about 20 times no lie, I’ve done everything from rebooting, hard resetting to restarting and deleting my home hubs and no luck!
I hope someone could give some advise cause I’m losing my mind 😫

[rustic zephyr]

Forgot to say I deleted the app, created a new account and still the same result! No response

[craggy plaza]

Did you update all your bulbs or do you have at least one bulb on the currently general available firmware? Do you have any Matter over Thread device from another vendor that works as expected in your Thread network? I want to understand, if you have particular issue with Nanoleafs firmware or a more general issue.

[rustic zephyr]

I have updated all my Nanoleaf bulbs to the current update! Yes I do have other matter over thread devices, I have 3 sets of Nanoleaf shapes working fine over thread! And a set of Nanoleaf 4D (which never joins my thread network instead it joins an “unknown” network) I also have an eve flare which I can control as expected, but the motion sensors and the eve energy are on the same situation with non responsive state! I do have Philips hue bulbs too working perfectly, even they are zigbee, and Airversa AP2 air purifier working perfectly, and LIFX WiFi bulbs working fine!

[brazen canyon]

Nanoleaf shapes are wifi, not thread

[craggy plaza]

Maybe that ’unknown‘ Thread network is the source of your problem. Find the Thread Border Router and remove it from current. After that try to commission your bulbs again. Shapes and 4D are WiFi, not Thread. At least from specs. I do not own these devices. But shapes, lines and elements are Thread Border Routers:

https://helpdesk.nanoleaf.me/en-US/nanoleaf-thread-border-routers-224355

https://helpdesk.nanoleaf.me/en-US/essentials-thread-and-thread-border-routers-15563

Did you try to reboot all your Matter Hubs (Thread Border Routers)? Maybe you can remove all Thread Border Routers from current, wait a bit, connect only your Apple Home Hubs with a Thread radio and try it again to pair your bulbs.

[rustic zephyr]

In fact they are border routers

[brazen canyon]

Yes but they're not connecting over your thread network , so if you have problems with your thread network, it wouldn't impact the performance of the shapes

[rustic zephyr]

So any suggestions to check that out??

[rustic zephyr]

Yes I did a reboot of all my matter hubs (3 HomePods and 2 Apple TV) I even removed the from the app and then add them to home! I also deleted all my WiFi configuration which I’m using wero

[craggy plaza]

Ok, and did you remove all your Nanoleaf Thread Border Routers from current, when you did that?

[rustic zephyr]

Wouk you recommend me delete the whole home again and start over a new home ?

[rustic zephyr]

No, because they were working fine! But should I have done that ?

[craggy plaza]

No, not at the moment.

[craggy plaza]

Try it:

1. remove all your Thread Border Routers from current incl. Apple TVs, HomePods, Shapes, 4D, Google, Alexa, whatever (I am unsure if 4D is a TBR)
2. wait some minutes until you see a message in Apple Home that no Home Hub can be found
3. connect your Apple Home Hubs
4. reset your bulbs to factory defaults (switching them 5 times on/off until flashing red)
5. re-pair your bulbs

If that worked, I would reset all shapes that are not in your default Thread network. Try to pair them again and hope that they use the Apple Thread Credentials this time. You need firmware >=9.1.0 on your shapes.

Which Apple TV models do you have exactly? The first Gen AppleTV 4K has no Thread radio. In that case leave it also away from current, only to be sure.

[rustic zephyr]

What about the other accessories I have working fine in the Apple home? Should I delete the and reset the too? My shapes and home hubs appear on the same thread network, and my shapes are on firmware 9.3.3.

[rustic zephyr]

I have the latest, the Apple TV 4K (3rd generation) Wi-Fi + Ethernet, and it is wired to the eero

[craggy plaza]

Ok, that should be fine. I would try it the way I described. But find the source of your unknown Thread network.

[rustic zephyr]

Is there any chance the eeros are creating that unknown thread network?

[craggy plaza]

Ok, Eero also has Thread Capabilities. I do not have Eero, but I read that you can disable their Thread functionality. Do that for the moment. Maybe that’s your unknown Thread network.

[craggy plaza]

You do not need to remove your other WiFi, ZigBee Bridge, whatever accessories.

[rustic zephyr]

Sure will do step by step, thanks for your help, as soon as possible! I keep posting the results

[craggy plaza]

Only the devices that are Thread Border Routers to get a clean environment. When you have it working, you can add your shapes again. IMO no need to factory reset them, when they are already using your Apple Thread network credentials. But again, find the source of your unknown Thread network. Keep us updated.

I am also unsure, if the Eeros are already capable of using the Apple Thread credentials.

[spice harness]

Eero currently only writes credentials to the keychain, doesn't read. So Apple devices could pick up eero credentials if eero becomes the preferred credential set (this is actually the case in my home), but not the other way around.

[rustic zephyr]

So, would you recommend me to turn off thread network on eero? And delete my thread border routers ? Or which steps should I take ? How can I make eero to become the preferred credential set ?

[craggy plaza]

OK, but how do you get the Apple Home Hubs to prefer the Eero Thread credentials and use them exclusively? > Reset all Apple Home Hubs to factory defaults, delete the Apple Thread credentials from the keychain, write the Eero Thread credentials to the keychain and set up the Apple Home Hubs again? Or is it somehow easier if all Home Hubs are already set up?

[craggy plaza]

Try what I wrote, when you got your issue solved and at least one or two bulbs are working again, you can try your luck with all your other Thread Border Routers. 😉

@spice harness Even though it’s all offtopic, one last question: Do Nanoleaf Thread Border Routers already support TREL? At least Apple and Google already support and use it by default.

https://github.com/orgs/openthread/discussions/8478#discussioncomment-4315812

@rustic zephyr Please, let’s keep this topic more clean. If you have any further questions create your own post. I am unsure, if everybody in this channel wants to read all this. 😉

[rustic zephyr]

I didn’t want this to happen! But all of this began because I thought this might be due to the firmware update! Sorry about that I’ll stop posting

[craggy plaza]

If it doesn’t work or you have any further questions, create your own post (thread) here in this Nanoleaf discord for this topic. If it simply worked, keep us updated here. Then we don't have much more to discuss. 😉

@spice harness Any news about the new beta firmware? 😃

[craggy plaza]

3 hours ago one of my light switched on. Didn’t open the Nanoleaf app since yesterday, where I disabled PLR. But all bulbs are still available. 😃

[craggy plaza]

What are your Home Hubs and Thread Border Routers, Amazon Alexa only?

Amazon is not known for being on par with Apple, Google or Samsung in terms of Matter.

Install an mDNS browser of your choice (with iOS use the following apps: Discovery and Flame, I don’t know which mDNS browser is typically used on Android).

1. open the Flame app (when you use iOS)
2. Search for your Amazon Thread Border Router
3. open the service ‘_meshcop._udp.‘
4. look for the attribute ‘tv‘ (it means ‘thread version‘)

Which Thread version is used by your Thread Border Routers?

All major platforms use Thread 1.3.0. Is this also the case for Amazon Thread Border Routers nowadays?

Amazon had Thread version 1.1.x some month ago. I do not own any Amazon Thread Border Router.

EDIT: With the mDNS Discovery app for Android, you should be able to validate the Thread version of your Amazon device:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mdns_discovery.app&hl=gsw&gl=US

[spice harness]

Neither iOS nor Android provide any easy way for a user to manage Thread credentials. Pretty sure what you suggested is unfortunately the best way at the moment. All border routers with the preferred credential set need to be removed in order for another existing set of credentials (on a reachable border router) to take over as the preferred credentials. It's pretty important that preferred credentials don't change spontaneously since if border routers always track the preferred credentials without issuing an operational dataset update on the network (which Apple BRs do), Thread devices can get orphaned with no recovery mechanism aside from reset and re-pair.

[spice harness]

Not at the moment. Theoretical value proposition is good but assessing the practical benefits in different network topologies before enabling and deploying has been lower on our priority list than other things (like fixing the bugs here 🙂 ).

[spice harness]

Ran into some last minute hiccups but we seem to have resolved them, just running some sanity checks and then we'll push it in the morning if all is well.

[spice harness]

3.6.79 - Beta Release Notes

• Testing reduced Bluetooth advertisement interval to reduce RF crowding
• Fixed state recovery behaviour on crash regardless of PLR setting (if lights are still turning on by themselves, let us know 🙂 )
• Minor improvement to switching between scenes in the Nanoleaf app, transition to black removed

Happy holidays and happy testing folks ✨ For those I've reached out to and asked to check for the Bluetooth channel disappearing previously, I don't expect this build will fix that issue although would appreciate confirmation on that hypothesis.

[spice harness]

I'm signing off but will check back in periodically just in case any major issues pop up 🙂

[craggy plaza]

Great, thank you so much! Merry Christmas and a happy New Year!

[spice harness]

You as well 🙂

[craggy plaza]

I have my 11 bulbs updated. If this is stable for some days I am going to add more. I have still 25 lying around…

Update procedure was fine, no re-meshing and no instabilities. I updated one bulb after the other.

I recognized 2 really minor ’issues’ while updating, but I want to mention them.

1. My iPhone always went into standby in the range between 87 and 90% if the firmware update. After I woke it up again, it always continued exactly in this range, even if I was away for much longer. The bulb definitely finished updating for some time, as I always switched it off for the update process. PLR was deactivated so that the bulb switched on after the update. The update and the charging status were not synchronized.
2. 1 of my 11 bulbs didn’t switch on after the update. But it reacts normal and the Nanoleaf app says it uses the latest beta firmware.

Until now it looks really good, but time will tell the truth.

By the way… I had not a single unavailability the last two days with the old firmware version 3.6.70. Sometimes single bulbs reacted a bit late, but I mean 2-10 seconds instead of instant. This beta firmware is already a big step forward.

I didn’t touch the Nanoleaf App the last two days and Power Loss Recovery is still disabled. Tonight 4 bulbs switched on.

I'm curious to see if this is better with the new firmware version 3.6.79.

Merry Christmas! 🎁

[craggy plaza]

My Thread network was re-meshing the whole night and still does it.

Not only the updated Nanoleafs, all EVE devices become unavailable and get back to its latest state, some devices do this every minute, some every 10 minutes, it varies. In Apple Home it doesn’t look as dramatic as in Home Assistant, but I also see devices coming online and going offline.

I already did the following:

• reboot my 2 Thread Border Routers > 1,5 hours later it was still re-meshing
• remove my 2 Thread Border Routers from current for some minutes > 1 hour later it was still re-meshing
• reduced my Nanoleaf bulbs from 11 to 9 > it doesn’t stabilize the situation

I think the next step is to remove more or all of the bulbs from my Thread network.

[brazen canyon]

My bulbs are still crashing, likely within the context of opening the app still.

[node 3][126] INFO Previous subscription failed with Error: 50, re-subscribing in 0 ms...

While I didn't get any of the lights turning on as a result, I'd really like to see this addressed with us.

Is it technically feasible to fix the bulbs crashing or is this a hardware problem that's going to just receive software duck tape? We already know running the matter stack can be more demanding than first thought and now I'm wondering if it's a hardware issue.

Sure you can hide the problem somewhat by having proactive CASE subscriptions after crash, doing some things with the behavior regarding state, etc, but that's not going to fix the instability induced in thread networks by bulbs crashing

And if it is a hardware problem, I think there needs to be some limit described on nanoleafs website somewhere

It's unclear to me if the app crashing the bulbs is related to the previous periodic crash that was supposed to be fixed (the periodic crash is more difficult to independently check particularly if you implemented proactive resubscription, in which case we would have to monitor thread connectivity to check )

I'll mention that many of us are running reduced subsets of bulbs that we actually want in our homes, and I'd even want to buy more than that if I had confidence that they wouldn't destroy my thread network if I deployed too many

[swift phoenix]

My girlfriend has 1 matter bulb and every morning I’ve come down to check it has turned on.

[haughty grove]

Latest beta (3.6.79) feels like a step back. Just came back home and 4 out of 6 bulbs (GU10) were on again. Also, of the 6 bulbs, 1 remains on Bluetooth even though all bulbs are within 5m of a border router (Nest wifi). Of the 5 bulbs that show as being connected to thread, only one appears online in Google Home and Home Assistant.

[dull dagger]

I've seen this I've had to resort to rebooting all the Border routers and even unplugging and plugging lights back in. hopefully only have to do this once

[brazen canyon]

I agree that .79 seems to be a regression, worst firmware yet for me. I had to reset some bulbs multiple times and finally removed all devices from the nanoleaf app to avoid accidentally crashing them

I added more bulbs than my "nanoleaf limit of stability" (about 8) and I'm still seeing some issues with bulbs crashing

I'm also still having some bulbs randomly turn on

[swift phoenix]

I agree as well

[dapper acorn]

My bulb never seems to turn on without me setting it on. But it sometimes takes a few sec to change

[brazen canyon]

After about 12h of getting everything settled things seem a bit more stable but I had to perform a variety of rituals to get some decent stability

I am however still having phantom bulbs turning on still, albeit less than the last firmware

[craggy plaza]

I am also back in the game. I used the HA beta Matter server and forgot about it. There is something wrong in the beta code. However… Now I use the general available version of the HA Matter server and everything is stable since yesterday evening.

I have 11 bulbs active in my Thread network now. I didn’t need any special rituals. The only thing I did was giving current to my bulbs.

Now, I am going to wait until Christmas is over before playing with more bulbs… 🤪

[eternal hill]

Maybe NL could just say that its an ML algoritm automatically turning your lights on when you “need” them and sell it as a feature, not a bug 😂

[bitter compass]

So, my matter / thread network has been working fine for months. Yes bulbs occasionally go unavailable but I could deal with that. However the matter light strip has been acting up for a few days (and has a lovely habit of dimming itself and then returning to it's previous brightness whenever it is trying to connect to the thread network). Today - yup Christmas day of all days, it dropped off the Thread network completely. The app could only talk to it via Bluetooth. It's been unavailable in Home Assistant since 4:37am. The app every time I open it has an error message at the bottom of the screen saying "something went wrong" and if you click on details, it says something about the bluetooth not working - but then it does anyway. As a last resort I tried factory resetting the light strip. It's back on Thread, but refuses point blank to connect to any matter server. The app interestingly enough - claims that none of my bulbs (I have 3 A19 bulbs) are connected to matter - but they are, and are still controllable. I don't know what else to try at this point.

(steps I have tried. Reboot the phone. Reboot BOTH Google Home Hub Gen 2. Factory reset the light strip.) Oh and further troubleshooting - the Matter dialog periodically appears on my Android phone asking me to scan the QR code - and it was doing that even BEFORE I factory reset the light strip, but only started today.

[craggy plaza]

Hi, after 24 hours of uptime, I brought 3 more bulbs to current. The bulbs were already paired to Apple Home, Home Assistant and the Nanoleaf app. All 3 bulbs worked as expected in Apple Home, but only one bulb came back to Home Assistant. Here is the log for the 3 bulbs:

• bulb 1: fabric node id 000000000000003F (hex) node id 63 (decimal)
• bulb 2: fabric node id 0000000000000040 (hex) node id 64 (decimal)
• bulb 3: fabric node id 0000000000000041 (hex) node id 65 (decimal)

Only the first bulb (node id 63) came back to HA automatically.

The other 2 bulbs didn't come back, even though I did the following:

• I restarted my HAOS
• I restarted my 2 hardwired AppleTV 4K 3rd GEn Thread Border Routers

Here is the log time frame for this 3 bulbs:

https://pastebin.com/jpNZW8NX

My understanding is that the bulbs should report its availability automatically.

1. Am I right?
2. What is this feature called?
3. Is this a firmware bug?

What do you think about it?

Today, after 48 hours of uptime, I came back home from a christmas party, went into the kitchen, switched the lights on, 2 of 2 bulbs were on (as expected). Left the kitchen, switched the bulbs off, one of them switched off with a 2-5 seconds delay, the othe bulb switched off instantly. I looked at Home Assistant and then it already became unavailable.

I have 11 Nanoleaf bulbs and 35 EVE devices in my Thread network, only the one bulb became unavailable after these 2 days. I removed it from current. It took 1 hour and 15 minutes to come back online. It worked fine in Apple Home the whole time.

fabric node id 0000000000000042 (hex) node id 66 (decimal)

• 7:47:32 PM > became unavailable
• 9:02:46 PM > turned off (it came back)

Here is the HA Matter Log for the respective time frame. https://pastebin.com/3jY8DcWa

What can be the issue? In production I do not want to remove bulbs from current to get them back online. 😉

[brazen canyon]

I've had about 5/15 bulbs drop off and refuse to come back without a reset

All on .79

[craggy plaza]

Ok, so you did a reset. I will try that, when I find the time.

But I am unsure, if this is a solution or only a workaround. The bulbs came back to my 1st Matter fabric (Apple Home), only the 2nd fabric (Home Assistant) had this issue.

Were your bulbs available in Google Home, while they were unavailable in Home Assistant?

[brazen canyon]

By reset I mean factory reset and re pairing the light which isn't what I would consider stable

My other non nanoleaf matter over thread remain fine

[craggy plaza]

My bulbs are on firmware .79, too.

[craggy plaza]

Yes, I understood you.

[bitter compass]

I don't think it will - or at least it hasn't helped me. I factory reset the strip, and now although it connected back to the thread network within minutes, it refuses to do anything matter related - I can't get it back into Google Home or Home Assistant. The light strip flashes when Android says "Generating Credentials" - but then after several minutes it just fails.

[craggy plaza]

By the way…, tonight 1 of my bulbs switched on. This is definitely not solved.

@brazen canyon Are all your bulbs paired to Google Home and Home Assistant or Home Assistant only?

Were your bulbs available in Google Home, while they were unavailable in Home Assistant?

[brazen canyon]

I had mine in HA only but I can pair some to GH if that's related

[bitter compass]

(I know you weren't asking me, but I'll give the answer anyway. Lights were primarily paired to Google Home and then shared from Google to Home Assistant. When the light strip went offline, it went offline everywhere, not just Home Assistant)

[craggy plaza]

I only want so understand your setup. That’s definitely a difference in our setups.

[brazen canyon]

Matter controllers are independent so it shouldn't matter (ha)

[craggy plaza]

No problem, every opinion is welcome. Especially yours is interesting for me, because you also use Home Assistant. 😉

[bitter compass]

Are we ALL using Google Home Hub 2 for the thread radio then?

[craggy plaza]

Shouldn’t… 😂

[craggy plaza]

No, I am an Apple Home user.

[bitter compass]

Right so it's not a concidental Google update then.

Do any of you see the app telling you that you can add your lights to a matter network even though they are already on a matter network?

Hmm I might try rebooting my pfsense box, because just looking at the Google Home app, when I go that light and look at the linked apps and services, which usually lists what matter fabrics the light is part of - it says an error occured and shows no linked matter fabrics

[craggy plaza]

We have small differences in our setups:

@brazen canyon uses Google TBRs, but all devices are paired to Home Assistant only, after resetting some bulbs, he has 15 bulbs working

@bitter compass I don’t know much about your Thread network, but your bulbs were paired to Google Home and Home Assistant and they do not work anymore. Please post your setup here:

https://discord.com/channels/837773208027529287/1186414005967913162

My bulbs are paired to Apple Home and Home Assistant, the last 3 bulbs I added were already paired with 3.6.70. I updated them to 3.6.79, but only 1 of them came back to Home Assistant, while they worked in Apple Home. I have 11 bulbs working with 3.6.79.

[craggy plaza]

Yes, I also saw that with the current Nanoleaf beta app (iOS TestFlight). But when I open the bulbs setting some more times, it will change and state that it is already paired to Matter.

[bitter compass]

I've just been looking at Service Browser on my phone, (mDNS), and looking in the _matter._tcp section. It takes a good 20+ seconds to get the IPv6 address, I wonder if that is part of the problem....

[craggy plaza]

Ok, on iOS this works instantly with the Apps ’Discovery‘ and ’Flame‘. 20+ seconds sounds not right. But I can’t say anything about Google. How many TBRs do you have?

[bitter compass]

Just the 2, both Google Hub Gen 2

[craggy plaza]

How many Matter over Thread devices? Do they have direct Line of Sight?

[bitter compass]

2 are in the livingroom with the hub, within 30cm - this includes the light strip. 1 is in the next room, maybe 5 meters away. One is in the bedroom which also has a hub 2 in it. And one is in the kitchen - it's the only non nanoleaf device so far - it's a plug socket. Everything else is working, it' just the light strip. All the nanoleaf stuff is on .79

[brazen canyon]

I'm using some Google, some nanoleaf, and some OTBR

[brazen canyon]

I've got 17 and LoS doesn't matter for me. There's some devices with no LoS that work great then there's nanoleaf which goes offline even with LoS

I've got one device that's two walls away from a BR that performs better than a NL bulb 1.5 feet from a BR

[craggy plaza]

How many bulbs do you have in your target scenario?

[craggy plaza]

Ok, but his setup need 20+ seconds to get the ip address via an mDNS browser.

Yes, you are right. I have 2 Thread Border Router Routers and 46 Thread devices perform well, even though they all don’t have direct LoS. But I do not have any disconnects with my 35 EVE devices. The Nanoleaf beta firmware is definitely not optimal, even though it’s much better as the currently general available firmware. A disconnect of an EVE Matter over Thread device is long ago.

[brazen canyon]

15

I actually bought another board for a OTBR but I don't think it'll help considering how bad the existing bulbs are, I think about 8 is still the critical limit for my setup

[craggy plaza]

My target is to have 36 bulbs, maybe more. 36 is my house without the hallway, the basement, outside and I have plans to install some in my barn. 😃

[brazen canyon]

Ambitious 😵‍💫

[craggy plaza]

8 is not very much. Since 3.6.70 I have 11 bulbs installed. They perform well, but not perfect. For production I need perfect.

[craggy plaza]

Yes, maybe I am a bit too optimistic… 🤪

I can’t really go on at the moment, because there are no Matter over Thread light switches on the market and I don’t plan to buy ZigBee switches.

[dull dagger]

hi all just wanted to report that .79 is actually more unreliable than the original, pre-beta, FW for me. 4 of 5 my devices are offline (and have been for hours) and the one that is online, continues to experience the disconnects. the FW before was by far the best one, despite the random on issue. thanks for your continued support to make this better and look forward to the next update.

[civic elbow]

Sorry for being quiet for a few days, I can report that I have my 12 bulbs paired with HomeKit and Alexa. I have had no issues on the new firmware with the exception of the colour accuracy but this is not the fault of NanoLeaf so I’m pretty happy. Also the response time for requests has improved for me.

[dapper acorn]

I am also sorry for being quiet for a week or so. I’ve been so busy, but sadly I can only report my lights glitch, one refuses to connect to HomeKit/matter. One works amazing tho

[edgy tusk]

Connectivity is really spotty with this update for sure

Responsiveness also went down

[bitter compass]

I'm 99% sure it's that devices are being VERY slow to respond to mDNS queries. That's the issue I'm seeing here.

[brazen canyon]

I don't have this issue on my setup

[craggy plaza]

My 11 bulbs are always connected to Thread according to the Nanoleaf app. All bulbs are always reachable for Apple Home (and work fine in the Nanoleaf app).

• When I have Power Loss Recovery enabled on the bulbs, sometimes bulbs became unavailable in Home Assistant, but they always work fine in Apple Home and in the Nanoleaf app.
• When I have Power Loss Recovery disabled on the bulbs, sometimes bulbs switch on and remain available in Home Assistant, Apple Home and the Nanoleaf app.

When I loose bulbs in Home Assistant with PLR enabled, it’s not possible to get them available in Home Assistant. Rebooting my Thread Border Routers brings all devices back, except the unavailable Nsnoleaf bulbs. Never had this kind of issue with my 36 EVE devices (23 Matter over Thread, 13 HomeKit over Thread). Rebooting Home Assistant OS or restarting the Matter service doesn’t help. But when I disable PLR the bulbs get available again in Home Assistant.

[brazen canyon]

In addition to connectivity problems I'm also still getting random bulbs turning on

[dapper acorn]

I honestly thing the major problem isn’t Nanoleaf, but I believe Thread and Matter are the underlying issue

Tho it’s possible I just stated the obvious and for that I’m sorry

[craggy plaza]

Yes, maybe. But my 23 EVE Matter over Thread devices are rock solid, in Apple Home and Home Assistant.

[brazen canyon]

Doubtful given all the other evidence. Like hoppel, I have other matter over thread devices that never give me problems

[bitter compass]

Exactly. My Onvis socket has been rock stable since the day I added it. It's matter over thread. And unlike many of the nanoleaf products - it's not even in the same room as the Thread Border Router.

[scenic grove]

Yeah I wonder if they someone ended up with a stinker of a software stack for matter/thread from a hardware vendor or something. It seems like they have a lot to wrangle here.

[bitter compass]

I'm almost afraid when all this ironed out - to request the ability to be support transition time. The hardware is clearly capable - but for the moment, when a command is sent from Home Assistant or Google Assistant (and probably any other matter controller) - the lights just instantly change to the requested brightness or colour, even if a transition time is sent with the command.

I use automations in Home Assistant to set the brightness based on the outside daylight level, and a colour temperature based on time of the day. And that means often the light strip will jump from a dim leevl to a bright level, rather than fading up or down, which is quite jarring

[scenic grove]

I suspect the light control software is something completely separate from the network and access layers.

[bitter compass]

Right - but once the connectivity and crashing is ironed out. I feel like "if it ain't broke" will come in to play lol

[brazen canyon]

Interesting so even if you specify a non zero transition time in the matter payload it's still an instant change?

The default transition time in HA is currently set to 0

[bitter compass]

Yup always instant. If you change the brightness in the app that transitions - so it's clearly capable of it. But I always send an 8 second transition to my lights from Home Assistant, and it ignores that - while the Zigbee light strip happily obeys

[brazen canyon]

You'd need to tail the actual matter container to see if it's properly sending the transition time. If you look at source, there's no arg passed for transition time so I'm pretty sure this is just a HA thing

It's pretty straightforward to fix, just like the light not turning on with a color change (you can also see where the transition is hard coded as 0):
https://github.com/home-assistant/core/issues/106190

My biggest concern is the hardware can't handle both the matter stack and the legacy/proprietary protocol and they're just applying software bandaids that won't ever really fix the problem. Of course they can't admit this but that's my worry

[scenic grove]

Naw I’m sure they have the hardware settled, it’s probably all software.

[brazen canyon]

I'm not so sure since they still haven't fixed the bulbs crashing

[scenic grove]

That’s probably a bad driver or Bluetooth radio connectivity software stack issue

I can’t imagine how busy their support team is going to be come next week with all of the $5 bulb deals for these.

They will get to the bottom of this quickly for their own sanity 🙂

[bitter compass]

wait.... the bulbs are on offer? where? (I'm in the UK so I'll need to find an equivalent)

[scenic grove]

They were ahead of Xmas you could get up to 5 for $5 each in the US at least. That sale is over. It’s how we ended up with them.

[edgy tusk]

The pain…

Honestly, my opinion when these things were native to HomeKit, they were light years more responsive

Feels like matter just made everything spotty

[bitter compass]

I don't think it's matter that is the problem, as in not matter itself, matter works fine on other devices. This is definitely a nanoleaf problem

[dapper acorn]

Well, I only have Nanoleaf and Apple devices running on matter. So I can’t compare. But I do know that ars technica says it has had many issues.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/12/matter-was-more-of-a-nice-smart-home-concept-than-useful-reality-in-2023/

Honestly I just want lights that work with my HomePod seamlessly.

[bitter compass]

I have nanoleaf - which I am having problems with. Switchbot Hub 2 - which is exposing my lock and my blind tilt over matter - which works perfectly, and is never unavailable. Onvis socket which like nanoleaf is matter over thread, and again it works fine and is never unavailable.

[dapper acorn]

I totally believe you, and I believe matter has great potential/works. Sadly I just can’t experience it

[craggy plaza]

Which Matter (over Thread/WiFi) devices do you have and which ecosystem(s) do you use?

[dapper acorn]

That’s the thing, I only have Nanoleaf devices on my thread network, and 4 Apple home hubs

So the only company I can actualy blame is Nanoleaf

[craggy plaza]

Ok, thanks for clarification. 😉

[dapper acorn]

Np lol

[eternal hill]

Its still early. There is a big difference between a standard written on a piece of paper and a product on the market.

[bitter compass]

additionally each release of matter fixes bugs. the second matter update largely didn't add anything new to the standard - it was largely a bugfix release that focused on addressing issues with connectivity. Which is why most other matter devices are pretty reliable now.

[brazen canyon]

Is there any more info that can be shared? Not sure if nanoleaf is back in the office this week

[dapper acorn]

Some of the Nanoleaf team is back in office

[craggy plaza]

Read the last bullet point:

#1184371187464290344 message

😉

[brazen canyon]

Seems I can no longer add the strips to my thread network, but bulbs work fine

They literally crash during the join to the network -- you can see the light go off then on 😵‍💫

[bitter compass]

oh wait, they aren't supposed to do that?!

[brazen canyon]

Not sure if you're sarcastic but yeah that's the light rebooting. You can see it at the end of a firmware update for example when it reboots, (or if it crashes while it's on)

[bitter compass]

No I wasn't being sarcastic, it was a genuine question - because it happens EVERY SINGLE TIME that Android reaches the "Generating Credentials" stage, so I assumed it was some sort of indication that the light was responding. I didn't realise that it was a reboot.

that would certainly explain why the process never finishes - because if the light is rebooting, the commissioning window will have be voided

[brazen canyon]

What were you trying to pair? My a19 and br30 seemed to pair fine, trouble for me was with the led strip

[bitter compass]

LED strip

[brazen canyon]

Same lol I didn't notice for a while since it was paired when it was updated to 3.6.79 but it fell off and now I can't re pair it

[bitter compass]

I factory reset it several days ago, when it fell off the thread network and refused to go back on it. It happily connected to thread again after the reset, but refused point blank to go back on matter. As I sit here - the LED strip hasn't rebooted (that I have noticed) in a few days, but - it's also fallen off the Thread network again, and doesn't seem interested in reconnecting

[brazen canyon]

I wouldn't bother until the next firmware

I didn't have issues with it rebooting this firmware except during commissioning

[blazing meadow]

Same I guess, the two lights I updated to the beta fell out of the Thread network, and factory resetting one didn't work to get it back in.

[swift phoenix]

https://tenor.com/view/wongwingchun58-gif-15613675

@Ben

[dapper acorn]

Yeah, that also happened to me

[hybrid whale]

I’m in the same boat with my light strip. I got it back on thread, but no amount of troubleshooting has gotten it back on Matter. The 3.6.79 firmware has solidly borked something.

[bitter compass]

It gets worse, eventually it will drop off thread again too.....

[civic elbow]

Um, my NanoLeaf bulbs over the last 3 days are coming on randomly with no reason

I thought it might be something I’m doing but it isn’t. Yesterday I reset EVERYTHING in my smart home which took the best part of 5 hours. I have no automations set up yet & no scenes, I will be re doing these today.

[brazen canyon]

Same issue, wasn't fixed this firmware like was hoped

[craggy plaza]

1. If I enable Power Loss Recovery the bulb is unavailable after a bulb crash.
2. If I disable Power Loss Recovery the bulb switches on after a bulb crash.

I prefer the variant 2. 😂

[dull dagger]

All my nanoleafs are offline now for 10 days that was the last time my power cycled them

I've given up until the next firmware update

But honestly the pre beta firmware was better than the 79 at this point

We'll get there I know we will let me know how I can help besides pressing the update button

[blazing meadow]

I knew what I was getting into while joining a Beta program, but I just hope nothing has been permanently screwed at a hardware level (like all EEPROM write cycles being prematurely exhausted due to some kind of loop), because that's what I think about when factory resets don't help.
Could border routers be blocking the hardware for whatever reason?
I wonder if another parallel network isn't being created too, because when I try to add a bulb to SmartThings it sometimes asks me which network to connect to (a new "OpenThread" or the normal one), and when I select any of the two I have to give a network key but I… don't have any, so? (a new network from a neighbour maybe? but why "OpenThread" then?)

[brazen canyon]

No I doubt the BR is blocking devices and I also doubt the EEPROM is hosed. More likely the bulbs are just forever crashing because they can't run the proprietary stack alongside matter with the hardware they have

OpenThread is an expected name of a thread network using OpenThread

[blazing meadow]

True, but I only have the Google Nest one, which the SmartThings hub shares.
IDK where the OpenThread one comes from, so I wondered if it couldn't be a kind of "APIPA network" for devices that can't register.

If there's a forever crash not linked to the hardware, I wonder why the devices worked relatively well during the first few days after the update: the factory reset should reset the parts involved in the crash then.

[brazen canyon]

Could be a neighbor

[blazing meadow]

Then it would be a missing feature in the Nanoleaf app when it passes info to the partner app ?
For me, the current status with the latest firmware is:
Adding using QR from SmartThings : never succeeds anymore (including after factory reset).
Adding using QR from GHome : never succeeds anymore (including after factory reset).
Adding using the Nanoleaf app ("Connect to Matter" button) when two Thread networks are detected: ST asks for a network key I don't have.

[brazen canyon]

It's probably because it's a separate thread network you don't have access to

Your phone has already synced credentials for the one in your home

[hybrid whale]

After a complete wipe and reset of all ecosystems and endpoints (thankfully, I've been wanting to do this anyway), the desk strip is still unable to rejoin my Matter network, even if I make it the only other device I'm adding. My best guess is that the network credentials are not being communicated correctly to the device and/or a network timeout is happening. I do notice that the strip does flash once during the attempt to connect, which it also does when initially adding it to the Nanoleaf app. However, unlike in the latter case, the former does not result in a successful connection.

I may be purchasing another strip elsewhere in my setup, so hopefully, I can make a direct comparison against the production firmware.

[brazen canyon]

The light flashing is when it crashes so it has nothing to do with your ecosystem

[craggy plaza]

We are all waiting for the next firmware. Are you guys with unpairable led strips able to reach the device with the Nanoleaf app? If so, you at least have the possibility to upgrade to the next beta firmware.

[brazen canyon]

I haven't tried since it was causing bulbs to crash

[hybrid whale]

@craggy plaza Yep, such are the joys of beta testing.I haven't experienced the bulb crash issue. The only problems I've experienced with the iOS app is intermittent "device is unreachable" that tends to pretty quickly resolves itself, and then the desktop app giving an "invalid auth token" error. I never fully lose connectivity to the strip. The rest of my devices have been rock solid.

[craggy plaza]

Ok, but that's acceptable if you can bring the led strips back to life. But we still need a new beta firmware. Nanoleaf needs time to develop it after their vacation.

[craggy plaza]

What you describe are the symptoms of the crash.

[hybrid whale]

Ah good to know. I find it interesting that it does it once during the pairing with the Nanoleaf App and still succeeds with connecting, but not with the Homekit pairing. Must be a little bit more wiggle room with the former. And I'm guessing that all the times I've had it go dark and come back on while running a scene the last week or so have also been crashes. Such is life.

[craggy plaza]

The Nanoleaf app connects to the devices via Bluetooth (and then Thread only, without Matter) by a proprietary Nanoleaf protocol. At least this is my understanding. Good to know, that you can establish a connection via the app. So there is a good chance, that this can be solved with the next beta firmware update.

[eternal hill]

there are not a lot of data saved in persistent storage in general.

And if you are lucky nanoleaf has drivers to avoid that.

[brazen canyon]

@spice harness any update on how things are going? Particularly in the context of the unpairable strips?

[swift phoenix]

Ben Gotham needs you

We’re losing hope…

[spice harness]

Stressful and very busy first week back, many of us were prepping some last minute things for CES but we are hitting the ground running with debugging the Thread/Matter issues that have been plaguing us. I'm checking a build now that should at least fix the commissioning issues that some of you are experiencing on 3.6.79, will push if it's good before I sign off.

[brazen canyon]

Hope you had a good holiday 🙂

Just wanted to check in to see things are still monitored -- we understand you're people too

[bitter compass]

When it's fixed, would you mind explaining to the more technical among us, what went wrong with this firmware, it will help in the future with other companies who may ship firmware with a similar bug @spice harness

[plain kettle]

i dont like to be negative here, we all want to see nanoleaf thrive with their product lineups, but they are currently the only matter certified company who is having this kind of issue, over 15 months after its 1.0 release....

but im glad to see a more open approach to trying to reslove it

[spice harness]

3.6.94 - Beta Release Notes

• Probable resolution to Matter commissioning in some cases that had regressed on 3.6.79

Note that this may also fix devices turning on when they shouldn't, although I can't say with high confidence since we haven't been able to consistently reproduce that in our environments.

[spice harness]

Basically just needed more RAM allocated to the Matter task since we made changes between 70 and 79 that resulted in it consuming more than was allocated to it in some cases.

[spice harness]

I get it, it's alright. We're trying to do a lot with a little and are also one of the only companies with devices in market that are mesh extenders on Thread. Our pals at Eve are the main other player but even then if you're comparing our devices with anything other than Eve Energy, Eve Light Switch, Eve Shutter Switch or Eve Water Guard (which are FTD-capable and can be mesh extenders) then it's not a fair comparison since sleepy end devices are significantly less resource intensive. We're quite confident that we're close to a jump forward in reliability and I'm happy to have all of you providing such great feedback 🙂

[scenic grove]

Has there been thoughts to allow a toggle for mesh extending vs child? I see sometimes they pick their own roles

[brazen canyon]

@spice harness so you're fairly confident it's a software rather than hardware issue? I've kinda wondered if running the matter stack in parallel with the NL proprietary ltpdu is maxing the hardware

[plain kettle]

you have to think of the end user, you def dont want someone with no experience/expertise to be playing around with settings that could possibly mean a complete re-meshing of a network

[brazen canyon]

My anxiety is around NL needing a hardware revision and I've got like 15+ bulbs -- it wouldn't be unprecedented (as in there's been non-NL hardware that have gone through chip updates due to the expanding matter stack)

[bitter compass]

Initial feedback. 1 out of 3 A19 bulbs are now on bluetooth, haven't reconnected to thread. The one light that has reconnected to thread still offers to let me connect it to matter even though it is already connected to matter. The light strip is stuck on Bluetooth. @spice harness

[spice harness]

Yes, very confident.

[spice harness]

Basically what @plain kettle said. Everything on Thread automatically picks its own roles given network needs, within its capabilities. We're determined to be a reliable FTD.

[scenic grove]

🙂

Fair enough

[spice harness]

sent you a DM for setup details

[bitter compass]

Give me a few mins Ben, I was just being impatient, they are all back on Thread - but the Android matter pairing process won't get past "searching for device", so I am going to try power cycling the strip

[scenic grove]

Im just dreaming of a day I don’t have to get out of bed again or touch a lamp switch to control my bulbs again 🙂 sweet sweet dreaming. We swapped a bunch of hue out for these and it’s been fun to explain to my kid and partner to use switch’s like in the stone ages when they don’t respond.

I’m already seeing stuff fall offline here with .94 but this wasn’t intended to fix that anyway 🙂

[plain kettle]

you know, it might be better to make a "beta" channel in this server instead of using a forum, as its already at 500+ messages

[hybrid whale]

Happy to say this has fixed strip pairing, though it did take a pretty significant amount of time, if that is of any concern. Will update if there are any stability issues and check screen mirroring.

[brazen canyon]

This also fixed commissioning for me on the strips

Mine were pretty fast to pair

[craggy plaza]

My 11 Essentials (6 A19/E27 and 5 GU10) are updated now. The update procedure was without issues. I updated one bulb after the other. 10 of my 11 bulbs came back in Apple Home and in Home Assistant immediately (within 30 secs to 1 min). One bulb was immediately available in Apple Home, but it took 10 minutes for Home Assistant to find the bulb. That may be related Home Assistant and not to the new bulb firmware. So far so good, all bulbs are working. Now I will go to bed in hope that everything still works after wake up. 😃

Maybe I can install some more tomorrow…

[craggy plaza]

I have 36 EVE HomeKit/Matter over Thread devices. 22 of them are migrated to Matter and paired to Apple Home and Home Assistant. 13 of them are EVE Energies (FTD - Full Thread Devices/Router/Mesh Extender). However they work absolutely rock solid since half a year. 😉

[eternal hill]

what chip are you using?

[swift phoenix]

I keep getting this error trying to pair to HA

[eternal hill]

might be an homeassistant error. Im getting similar errors with eve devices

[swift phoenix]

All of my other thread devices connected just fine. It seems only Nanoleaf is causing issues

I just keep getting the unable to add accessory error. Not sure if it’s HA error or something else

Freaky behavior

It’s like lagging to power off

[eternal hill]

How many border routers do you have? I placed mine a bit different today and for now it just works

[swift phoenix]

Just 2 HomePods and Apple TV in a small apartment

Never had issues before I nuked my HomeKit when I came back from break

[eternal hill]

A single Bulb should be fine, but compared to fx eves devices, i turn on 5 nanoleaf bulbs at once, while i before just have changed the of one eve plug at a time.

And eve plugs just have on/off, while the nanoleaf bulbs have on/off, brightness, color and idk what else

[swift phoenix]

I still cannot get 1 bulb into HA I just keep getting errors. Does anyone else experience this?

[craggy plaza]

My 11 bulbs and my 36 EVE devices are still working as expected, but one bulb switched on over night. I force closed the Nanoleaf app after the latest update. Maybe that’s the reason.

[brazen canyon]

It could be any number of issues, particularly with all the details behind iOS credentials syncing. I wouldn't blame NL for not being able to add the device until you can confirm you can add other devices from different manufacturers

[errant spindle]

I experience this error from time to time in the Nanoleaf app - when I want to update it tells me to setup light first and I then get this error. Others experience the same? Only resolution I know is to delete the light and add it again with all the trouble it gives me.

[brazen canyon]

I'm beginning to think there's also problems with the nanoleaf app - anytime I open it something goes wrong -- bulbs drop off and get lost

I had 4 bulbs that required power cycles to accept the update but they did all come back to the network after the update

[bitter compass]

When I open the app it has an orange bar at the bottom that says something went wrong, but when you click details it says the bluetooth isn't working - but you ignore the message and it turns out the bluetooth works fine

[blazing meadow]

Given what's been described here, could the Nanoleaf app be causing a spike in memory usage and then a crash by "pinging" the device through BT when the Thread stack is already up?

[brazen canyon]

It's certainly possible

Or caused by connecting over the proprietary protocol

[craggy plaza]

I share this impression. So I strictly do not use the app the moment. I already said, that one of my bulbs switched on tonight. In the morning one of my bulbs became unavailable. I waited 3 hours, but it didn’t come back in Home Assistant. It worked fine in Apple Home. So I removed it from current and it came back to Home Assistant and Apple Home. Maybe the reason for both is that, I force closed the Nanoleaf app yesterday night after the updates. I will have a look at the logs later and report back here.

https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/RkGq2YXcY8/

[peak mesa]

i still have one bulb which is unable to pair to HA. i resetted the bulb many times, also restarted borders and run the latest beta. just this single one wont pair to HA, can pair it to apple every time.
[19:40]
i think its just broken i will order a new one....

[eternal hill]

From what ben wrote is that their requirement is that the bulbs work when there is no thread network over Bluetooth. I would be happy though to have a firmware version without the nanoleaf protocol that just works over matter.

[eternal hill]

How long have you waited in between?

[brazen canyon]

That would be great to have all the compute resources for the matter stack but I doubt we will see that

[swift phoenix]

My bulbs are still self turning on

[eternal hill]

the matter SPECIFICATION is one year old. Its still really new and most vendors need to figure out how to implement it into their system and the spec is basically still a "minimal viable product". I think once everything matures this might change.

[craggy plaza]

But then you can’t update your bulb anymore, until Nanoleaf uses Apple Home OTA updates and all the other players (Google, Samsung, Amazon) developed their OTA and brought it to general availability.

[plain kettle]

its not hard to change over to use the OTA (spec wise). just that amazon and google hasnt yet adopted it

[craggy plaza]

Yes, may be. But what about group scenes and circadian lightning. Don’t know if there are any other features, that Matter doesn’t support at the moment. I understand that Nanoleaf goes that router.

But I also really want reliable Nanoleaf bulbs. However this gets done.

Samsung already has OTA?

[plain kettle]

not sure, dont think many people use smart things. but iirc, it doesnt

[brazen canyon]

Which is all the more surprising that Tesla and Hyundai partnered with them this year 🧐

[craggy plaza]

With whom, with Nanoleaf?

[plain kettle]

smart things

[frozen crystal]

Oh dear, since updating from the previous beta to 3.6.94 my thread network has become very unstable again. I always have a large percentage of unresponsive devices. It’s 60+ Matter GU10s and a dozen or so HomeKit bulbs, all Nanoleaf. Might the scale be an issue?

[plain kettle]

yeah, i think it starts to get unstable at ~16

[craggy plaza]

60+ Matter GU10? WOW! Did they work reliable for you with the last beta firmware?

[frozen crystal]

I haven’t done anything crazy with them yet, after my experience with the regular firmware 🤣 but grouped-up and using Apple Home for power and brightness they were fine. What might have broken things with the latest beta?!

[frozen crystal]

Mine too ☹️

[brazen canyon]

All they did is change the RAM allocation so I doubt it was stable beforehand -- maybe they were just in a favorable configuration of some sort

Especially with 60+ I can't even imagine

[frozen crystal]

That’s what stumped me too. Let’s hope that the wind changes direction overnight then! I’ll try power cycling everything as well

[brazen canyon]

I can't add more than like 11

[frozen crystal]

With GU10s you end up with about 11 in each room. (Un)fortunately this “investment” coincided with a major home refurb and I had enjoyed many years of solid reliability with the HomeKit bulbs.

[craggy plaza]

I also have 11. That’s enough instability in my Home for the moment. 😃

[frozen crystal]

Fortunately I kept regular light switches so if it all goes wrong we can revert to the 1990s…

This is why I wanted Thread, though. This stuff is meant to scale. Good luck with the firmware, Nanoleaf team!

[craggy plaza]

Out of interest… How many Thread Border Routers do you have and which models? Do you use more than one ecosystem or only Apple Home?

[frozen crystal]

Only Apple Home. I have an Apple TV in charge and 4 HomePod minis

Anyway, if there’s any way I can extract useful diagnostics to help Nanoleaf, since I seem to have an unusually large deployment, I’d be very happy to oblige.

[craggy plaza]

@spice harness

https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/RkGq2YXcY8/

Thats a log from a Nanoleaf bulb that I lost in the morning. It worked fine in Apple Home. In Home Assistant it was unavailable.

I tried to remove the bulb from current. But again, it didn't come back to Home Assistant only. So I looked at the logs and found the following:

Jan 06 11:53:56 homeassistant addon_core_matter_server[447]: 2024-01-06 12:53:56 core-matter-server matter_server.server.device_controller.[node 86][126] INFO Previous subscription failed with Error: 50, re-subscribing in 4585825 ms...

My calcualtor says that 4585825 ms are round about 76 min. So Home Assistant should try to find the bulb at round about 2:10 pm (12:53:56 + 76min).

The bulb came back at 1:46 pm (13:46:09). Please repair your proactive re-subscription mechanism. Thanks

[brazen canyon]

So for context on that ^ home assistant just uses the vanilla SDK polling when nodes drop so it's not as proactive as apple which has a mDNS discovery operation IIRC

I'm not sure how when nanoleaf bulbs go down how the resubscribe works -- I just remember reading in one of the early updates there was some proactive resubscribe on the device end

[frozen crystal]

How does the Thread mesh rebuilding process work? Do devices which are assigned but powered down cause issues when recovering a large mesh? I ask because I wonder if keeping rooms which will not be used for a while powered down, thereby allowing the mesh to rebuild step-wise, helps or causes more issues.

In other words, can I only power up a few rooms at a time and thereby simulate the discovery/routing (?) load on each nanoleaf bulb of a smaller network?

[brazen canyon]

I wouldn't really bother looking into that unless you're personally curious. You having a bigger network is much more uncommon and valuable in the context of the beta feedback since most of us have 10ish bulbs max

[dull dagger]

Hi all, .94 has been a big improvement from .79. However, my devices (3, A19s and 2 LED strips), are doing the whole disconnect/connect thing several times an hour again. Thanks

[frozen crystal]

Agreed. And power cycling bulbs and hub seems to have resulted in them completely falling off of my Thread network. Only my nanoleaf HomeKit bulbs are on Thread now… 😬🤦‍♂️

[dull dagger]

it seems that all three beta versions collectivily solve the problems I've been experiencing...but not a single beta solves all the problems... so a solution is near 🙂

[peak mesa]

there is no .94 for the nanoleaf downlights, right? or is it just me...
i cant pair 2 of 4 downlights to homeassistant, adding them to apple eco works fine.

[shell vigil]

I have been updating for the past month all beta firmware for all my devices. The last beta firmware crashed things up. The 3.6.79 firmware was the best so far (not perfect though). The last firmeware has issues below:
1- it takes much longer for the thread network to build back if it was disconnected.
2- some bulbs keep going offline and back online.
3- more bulbs are flickering if you turn them on and off
4- when activating scene in Apple home, some bulbs change to some different color than the one selected.
5- the ability to control a large numbers of bulbs is still very buggy, I have to select the scene multiple@times to make it work and sometimes bulbs become unreachable.
6- the thread network with Apple TV takes ages to build

I have 4 essentials light strips, around 45 gu10 and 3 A19 bulbs

Is there a way to downgrade to previous beta version? Or when is the new beta firmware is expected ?

Additionally, Nanoleaf team, do you need any help in diagnosis on my appartment due to amounts of bulbs used ? I am happy to help on this

[brazen canyon]

You can't downgrade, no. No ETA on next release, but I suspect more than a week since CES is next week

[eternal hill]

i think the main problem is that its hard to reproduce the errors 😦

[shell vigil]

100% well said, each beta firmware solved an issue and recreated other issues that was solved in a previous firmware

[frozen crystal]

Oh well, until the next firmware, back to the 1990s light switches it is… 🤣 and thank the Lord for the reliability of the HomeKit bulbs!

[frozen crystal]

Update: I left only one room of 2x GU10 powered up overnight and this morning it had found the Thread network! Now, powering-up the house one room at a time seems to be, very slowly, bringing things back online. Hurrah!

(Apple TV 4K and 3.6.94)

[shell vigil]

What was your issue before?

[bitter compass]

One of my A19 bulbs, which is still on the Thread network according to the app, never came back on matter after the update, so yesterday I factory reset it to see if that would help, and it did come back for a few hours. But is back offline again, despite still being on Thread. It's offline in both Google and Home Assistant.

[civic elbow]

https://www.theverge.com/2024/1/8/24028203/thread-group-fix-credential-sharing-thread-border-router?fbclid=IwAR2riRyxotB7vmUedNiQ0XrnfT7PODvb3mB0Sf6Z20KyV7xG7wVfGL53mvA_aem_AaYE6RgQ5-xPAiaUdT6ckyU9NwqtHdqdcHSFyuM2ywjEI2bgLiL-wrPpAxgilJZ2u0A

[frozen crystal]

See above. I lost my nanoleaf Matter bulbs from my thread network after installing the latest beta. Many bulbs still offline even after their neighbours returned hours before. It’s definitely not right compared with the previous version

[frozen crystal]

Things now seem to have reached equilibrium, and with only around two-dozen Matter bulbs powered up. As geologically slowly as bulbs join the Thread network, others drop off for no apparent reason. Drat… looks like I’ll be sticking to the wall switches this week after all.

[brazen canyon]

That tracks with most people's experience that there seems to be a "nanoleaf" limit that you can't exceed. Exact number changes from setup to setup

[frozen crystal]

Before the latest beta I had everything in my home working. That number seems to have decreased for me…

[brazen canyon]

That's the exception not the norm from what I've seen

Could just be the right planetary alignment when you had your last setup before the update

[plain kettle]

To be fair, you are running a really complex network

[frozen crystal]

Not really. Right now probably I have under 30 Thread devices powered up and it can’t handle that. That’s an order of magnitude lower than the maximum for a Thread network.

And they’re all nanoleaf, apart from the Apple routers

[plain kettle]

That’s your issue 🙃

[frozen crystal]

It’s interesting that the HomeKit bulbs are bulletproof. It really must be the Matter code

[brazen canyon]

No it's something with the NL firmware as there's others with large networks of other devices and they are fine

[frozen crystal]

I would be amazed if Nanoleaf didn’t have a HomeKit firmware for these bulbs for internal development purposes which they never intend to release. I shouldn’t say this, but I would genuinely pay for access to it. I have no intention to link other ecosystems, and so the Matter stuff is unnecessary complexity. I am figuratively paying the price for it…

[brazen canyon]

They do have a thread only firmware because their old bulbs are thread only. In fact they run it in parallel with the matter stack which is how the nanoleaf app interacts with the bulbs.

There's nothing about matter that is causing their issues and I doubt they will go to HomeKit only and why would they? Homekit scope is much more limited than matter

[scenic grove]

Could very well be different hardware inside so the old stack wouldn’t necessarily mean stability on this platform.

If it was the same hardware they would have rev’d the firmware and done software code generation and commissioning

[frozen crystal]

Sorry. I was being unclear. By “these bulbs” I meant the GU10s. I have 10ish HomeKit over Thread screw bulbs and a light strip. They’ve been the most reliable devices in the house. These Matter bulbs are the most unreliable, to the point that only the previous version of the beta firmware made them usable, sadly.

[frozen crystal]

Yes, I am pretty sure this is true. I remember reading an interview with the Nanoleaf CEO after CES last year when the GU10s were announced. That was the reason given for why the HomeKit bulbs couldn’t be flashed with the more-demanding Matter firmware.

[brazen canyon]

I think I can say we are all sad about the stability lol

[craggy plaza]

Nanoleaf is hitting the ground with debugging Thread/Matter issues. They are very confident, that it’s a firmware issue and not an issue of underpowered hardware. They are close before a reliable firmware and are determined to make their Matter Essentials a reliable Full Thread Device (FTD).

So, we have to be patient. I hope that this will soon come true and really won't take much longer. 😃

Here are the respective sources for my comment written by @spice harness:

we are hitting the ground running with debugging the Thread/Matter issues that have been plaguing us.
Source: #1184371187464290344 message

We're quite confident that we're close to a jump forward in reliability and I'm happy to have all of you providing such great feedback 🙂
Source: #1184371187464290344 message

Yes, very confident.
Source: #1184371187464290344 message

We're determined to be a reliable FTD.
Source: #1184371187464290344 message

[scenic grove]

Yeah I have faith 🙂

[peak mesa]

strong stement, i hope it will turn true, since i added 4 more downlights, all probs got started...

[earnest vale]

I'm having this issue because two of my bulbs have the same ID. Support didn't believe me and I had to send in a video. I haven't heard anything back. If I add one bulb, I can't add the other, but once I delete the first bulb, I can add the other.

HomeKit is able to let me as both bulbs, so it seems to be an issue with the app.

[shell vigil]

What is the number ? I have nearly 42 bulbs and light strips using thread. According the to the shared thread and Nanoleaf design, the performance should be perfect with up to 20 and reduce with more but that doesn’t mean you can’t use it at all and it will keep breaking. The thread network has unlimited devices that you can connect to

[shell vigil]

I have got 42 bulbs and light strips 2 of them are bummer proof thread devices but not Nanoleaf. I have other devices running on home kit and home bridge. They are running for months and I didn’t had the reason to restart them , neither hard reset, neither disconnect the power etcs. It’s clearly Nanoleaf issue where I have to cut the power nearly each day …

[verbal drift]

Six GU10's running 3.6.79 random drops out and now one light is unreachable. 3.6.79 seems far more stable than the previous version. Shall I upgrade to the latest beta being offered or shall I hold off?

[frozen crystal]

If my experience is anything to go by, I would hold off

[verbal drift]

thanks, I will keep an eye on this forum to see what others adopt.

[brazen canyon]

It varies from setup to setup. There's no hard rule -- mines about 9 but I've seen other people with more or less.

This is a result of the unstable firmware, not the thread network technology. I agree that you should have near unlimited

[shell vigil]

Yes it’s the Nanoleaf firmware mess but it affects the whole thread network

[brazen canyon]

Yes I understand/agree

[bitter compass]

mine are all massively more stable on 3.6.94 3.6.79 was probably the worst firmware yet.

[craggy plaza]

How many are you talking about?

[bitter compass]

3 A19 bulbs and the essentials light strip. Apart from 1 A19 bulb, everything else is working and connected to matter

[verbal drift]

Gonna give the latest firmware a chance... fingers crossed!! Come on Nanoleaf we are counting on you guys!

[plain kettle]

New beta?

[verbal drift]

3.6.94 from 3.6.79

[craggy plaza]

Ok, but the Nanoleaf reliability seems to be more or less 10 Matter bulbs. I have 11 Nanoleaf Matter bulbs and 36 EVE devices (23 Matter over Thread and 13 HomeKit over Thread) paired to my Thread networks. I use 2 hardwired AppleTV 4K 3rd Gen as my Thread Border Routers.

Since the update I lost 1 bulb in Home Assistant and one bulb switched on by its own. The lost/unvailable bulb came back, when I removed it from current. But that’s it. I didn’t have any other issue since the upgrade. But I still do not trust their latest firmware and I am afraid to bring more bulbs into the game.

[craggy plaza]

How many bulbs do you have?

[verbal drift]

6 GU10's

[brazen canyon]

That's inline with my experience

[craggy plaza]

Ok, you probably won’t recognize any issue. Do you have any other Matter over Thread devices?

[verbal drift]

Eve Weather and a switchbot, few other items too

[craggy plaza]

Ok, which ecosystem(s), which Thread Border Routers?

[verbal drift]

Apple Homekit 3 homepod mini's, apple tv and two apple homepods in stereo

[craggy plaza]

Apple Home only, no other ecosystems?

[frozen crystal]

They really need to fix this scaling issue if their GU10s are to be viable. With the larger bulbs I can imagine how 10 may be ample for a home. With GU10 spotlights you’d need that many in each room.

[shell vigil]

I have 35 😭😭😭

[frozen crystal]

I feel your pain… Look at that Skylight email they sent us all today. The example setup in the image must have at least that many individual panels in it, alone.

[plain kettle]

The skylights are not cheap, that’s for sure 😝

[verbal drift]

So I upgraded to 3.6.94 and it broke all my Essentials, GU10’s and I reset the lot and the got them back on. But they are now showing some devices as unreachable! I should have left it on the older firmware, but saying that the 3.6.79 wasn’t much better to be fair.
I know I’m an early adopter but sadly this is a little bit broken at present.
Hopefully the experts at Nanoleaf can work their magic @spice harness

[civic elbow]

New update is causing my bulbs to turn on randomly

[eternal hill]

Have you tried turning all your border routers off and back on?

[verbal drift]

will give that a go!!

[verbal drift]

No change, all devices on 3.6.94, totally unresponsive.

[eternal hill]

On what platform?

[verbal drift]

Apple

actually, the standard essentials are still working ok, but ALL matter lights are unresponsive 😢

[frozen crystal]

See above. This is exactly my experience too. Power down all but a few matter devices and leave it overnight. Hopefully the 2 or 3 you left on will recover. I could then bring small groups back on this way. But I soon hit this inconsistent apparent “limit” of matter network size under the latest beta

[verbal drift]

yes I had that message a few times whilst onboarding the lamps again. I onboard via the nanoleaf app then it hooks into the homekit. At first all seemed well, then they slowly dropped off. Its almost like the latest firmware is breaking the matter (over thread network), because I still have two lights on 3.6.79 and they are also not working. Not sure if this is of any use to the nanoleaf techs.

I wish there was a tool that mapped the thread network to see what devices is talking to and signal strength, this would help showing potential weaknesses, I know there are various tools to see the network but they do not show connections of the mesh.

[frozen crystal]

It’s the network load and device load which I would be most suspicious of. When I ran the public matter firmware in early December it was symptomatic of a DoS against all thread devices, including non-matter ones. (I had about 40 or so Matter essentials back then)

[verbal drift]

Well hopefully with all the info we are posting they can fix it, the essentials with matter only became a real pain when I added the GU10's then jumped onto the 79 beta which I feel is better than the 94 beta which seems to be a backward step in reliability.

[frozen crystal]

💯 Agreed on all points

[eternal hill]

But did you ever have a working setup? In general i think Matter needs more data than HomeKit, so maybe the connection to your border router just isn’t good enough to support that many lights.

Nvm, I can see you just have 6 lights

So it’s probably not the case

[verbal drift]

I thought that matter is just the protocol that sits on top of the network traffic (thread) so surely with the concept of mesh networks is that the traffic should always find its way back.

[eternal hill]

yes, but fx when you have bad wifi you might be able to access simple websites that are just text based, but watching netflix might be almost impossible. And the concept of a mesh is that traffic should be routed, but if all links out of the network are really bad, you will still have problems. Im not sure that this is the case for you though.

[verbal drift]

Sadly not, I wish that was the case. The Wifi is strong throughout the house. Might reboot core switch see if that helps as that kills the wifi (PoE) so an idea at the moment. I don't think it will make a difference but just clutching at straws.

[eternal hill]

Just turn off the main fuse, then everything is reset 😄

[verbal drift]

If I thought that would fix it, I would. Sadly the reboot of the switch has done nothing 😢

[bitter compass]

Perhaps it might help the team to know that - I have one NL68 and 3 NL67. All are on Thread. The app reports all are on thread. All are connected to matter. The Light Strip (NL68) and 2 of the bulbs (NL67) are online on matter, and full working. The 3rd bulb that dropped off matter about 6 hours after a full factory reset and recommission - has never come back, but remember it is still available on the Thread network according to the app. Now - here is the information I have been able to spot -

Type: _ltpdu._udp.
Name: Nanoleaf A19 3ED-EA1A
Type: _ltpdu._udp.
Name: Nanoleaf Strip 91A-E591
Type: _ltpdu._udp.
Name: Nanoleaf A19 1A6-0BB8

There are only three of them showing up in Service browser, the missing one is presumably missing an mDNS entry. It's unfortunately harder to know if it is missing an mDNS record in the matter DNS records because there are so many of those, it's difficult to know what is related to nanoleaf in there.

Perhaps it might help the team @spice harness to add some sort of Thread/Matter diagnostic debug dump to the app, so that you can get a dump of what the app can see on the Thread/Matter network vs what the App believes should be on the network. Then we could all submit network maps to the team?

[brazen canyon]

The ltpdu has nothing to do with matter -- that's their proprietary stack that they run in parallel to the matter stack. You should be looking for the matter mDNS instead, but you'd likely find a missing entry there as well. This is likely because your missing bulb is actually not in the thread network

[bitter compass]

Right, but mDNS records have a timeout and then they are deleted, suggests that the bulb has failed to publish any further service data and thus has fallen off the network. The bulb is definitely still on the Thread network because it is fully controllable from the app AFTER I have turned off bluetooth on the phone.

[brazen canyon]

Even the one with the missing mDNS entry is still controllable ?

[bitter compass]

yup

[brazen canyon]

That I was not expecting

[bitter compass]

This is why I think they need to add a diagnostic debug dump asap to the app, to figure out what is going wrong where

[brazen canyon]

Well hopefully next week we will see some progress since CES will be over

[verbal drift]

So...

all of a sudden all my devices appeared and are now working. This was like 6-8hrs after I rebooted the core switch.

Weird!!

Oh and I came to one random GU10 switched on for no reason!

[upbeat mica]

I got 8 GU10 bulbs back in November. It's been very unreliable. Individually most bulbs work fine, but if you group then it becomes a mess. They flicker in all sorts of colors when you turn them on and off and colors very often are wrong. Tried updating to the new beta but it's still bad. Even fully reset them and set them up again. Hopefully Nanoleaf will come out with a firmware that actually works, soon.

[shell vigil]

Welcome to the club

[stable drift]

Sorry if this is the wrong place. I'm on the latest beta firmware and for some reason Google home say my light bulbs are offline, I've confirmed they're on thread in the nanoleaf app, they work with Alexa still and function normally. Been wanting to switch to only using Google but there seems to be some issue with communication

[verbal drift]

I think presently Nanoleaf have issues with Matter not working well over thread., thats the general feeling at the moment, of course CES is running right now so there focus might not be fixing things. I am sure with our feed back they will get a working solution.

[bitter compass]

Today, only 1 light out of 4 is on Thread, the other 3 refuse point blank to connect to Thread, or rather they briefly join the thread network and then drop back to bluetooth.

I have rebooted both Google Hub Gen 2's and I have power cycled all the lights. 1 A19 (NL67) has reconnected to thread and matter pretty much immediately. The other 2 A19 (NL67) bulbs just won't and the Light Strip (NL68). I don't know why they would be fine one day and then the next day, not even attempt to connect to Thread, even after a power cycle. 🤷‍♂️

[dapper acorn]

Generally what I have noticed is Nanoleaf often has a rocky start to updated products , primarily thread, but when releasing an all new product tend to do a great job. I am sure that in less than a year thread/matter will be working well on Nanoleaf devices. And as of now, it’s only essentials having major issues.

[bitter compass]

I rebooted both Google Home Hubs again - AND unplugged the SkyConnect just you know - because I was running out of ideas. All 4 are back on Thread, and 3 are on matter. Light Strip is not back on matter on Google or Home Assistant. So I think that's going to be the state of that until at least the firmware update sigh.

[brazen canyon]

Essentials have been out for like 15 months

[dapper acorn]

I am deterring to the matter ones

*refering

The old essentials (Apple home) were absolutely amazing, never had an issue.

[brazen canyon]

In that case it's still been like 9 months which is a bit frustrating

[frozen crystal]

And yet we all paid for a finished product which meets the specification on the box…

[bitter compass]

Yeah the thing that I don't get, is these lights passed the matter certification, so does that mean that the matter certification process is a bit rubbish?

[brazen canyon]

One thing that was noteworthy at CES was they backed away from the skylight being a border router which was interesting

I wonder if they're just going to lean into matter over wifi

[frozen crystal]

That would be a terrible decision. Thread is the right network architecture. The implementation just needs to catch up. WiFi is optimised for a very different use case

[craggy plaza]

Remember this post:

#1184371187464290344 message

They need the time to develop the new firmware. 😉

[plain kettle]

i could see it as running the same firmware as the shapes/lines do, where it acts as a thread border router

[brazen canyon]

That's what the old marketing said but I don't see it anymore

[plain kettle]

hmm, i guess only time will tell. but a thread BR makes the most sense in this senario

[bitter compass]

Border Router + Trel makes absolute sense

[edgy tusk]

With this new update a lot of the time my devices are just off-line, which is pretty crazy because I have a lamp on my desk which is HomeKit compatible however, it doesn’t even have thread and is more stable

[civic elbow]

Hi all. Just to let everyone know my 12 bulbs are all working pretty much ok except every couple of days one or two of them turn on randomly. I can’t figure out why though.

[craggy plaza]

Lights turning on by itself is a known issue with this beta releases. Which ecosystem(s) do you use? How many and which Thread Border Routers? How many Matter/HomeKit over Thread devices? 😃

[gilded void]

Yes, I see this as well. 18 matter bulbs in total. 8xGU10 and 10xA18. Wider thread network of approx 45 devices being mix of NL LightStrips as HomeKit over thread and Eve Thermo/Motion/Door sensors. The 18 matter devices drop off frequently but are more stable in HomeKit. A bit slow to respond sometimes but generally have been better through the beta’s. Not stable in home assistant very often though.

[brazen canyon]

This is likely due to the fact that devices are dropping off and HomeKit is quicker to put them back on. Likely because HomeKit is using mDNS discovery whereas HA is using a simple polling scheme as is default in the SDK. A mDNS scheme similar to HomeKit is in the works for HA, but really if the devices work correctly it shouldn't be a problem

Simply put the bulbs should not be dropping from the matter controller at all

[craggy plaza]

The bulbs shouldn’t crash, but when they crash, they should resubscribe correctly. The latter is not the case. EVE does a better job in this regards. At least this is my understanding. 😃

But I am not a dev… 😉

[brazen canyon]

Do you have other devices or just nanoleaf? You should notice that other manufacturers do reconnect properly -- it's a firmware issue

[civic elbow]

I’m using HomeKit and Alexa (HomeKit primarily) I have 9 matter £ 3 HomeKit NanoLeaf bulbs. I have 2 Apple TV newest version, 6 HomePod minis, 2 eve energy plugs, 1 echo 4 with thread boarder router & roughly 15 MOT devices

[verbal drift]

And everything was lovely and then they all break!! Damn it

[dapper acorn]

That’s how it goes

[brazen canyon]

Hopefully we hear some news soon

[verbal drift]

Update: even my none upgraded lamps have gone all wrong!!

[bitter compass]

All mine were working properly the last few days, but I updated Home Assistant and so now Home Assistant can't see any of the nanoleaf stuff. 2 out of 3 A19 bulbs are controllable in Google Home. There just doesn't seem to be any pattern to what works where and when.....

[dapper acorn]

My matter bulb A19 has been working fine for the past few days, but every now and then it glitches. And 2 of my HomePod minis have been freaking out

[craggy plaza]

What happened when they freaked out?

[dapper acorn]

They keep disconnecting from WiFi and then thread

And then saying cannot connect, despite the fact that they have a very strong signal

I have had to reset them a few times

And idk if it’s apples fault, threads fault, or maybe a glitch from one of my devices

[craggy plaza]

Ok, but that is not related to your Nanoleaf bulbs… 😃

At least this can be assumed...

[dapper acorn]

I hope so lol

[real arch]

Having the same problem here, dropped first 1 then a couple hours later 2 from HA. Not looking forward to having to reset them to get them back online and usable as it never seems to work any quicker than like 3 factory resets.

[brazen canyon]

I haven't had the spontaneous light issue in quite some time since the latest update, but im also running a relatively small number of bulbs (9)

Edit: spoke too soon 🥲

[blazing meadow]

After a power outage that forced everything off for a short time, things seem to have stabilized on my end (but only using a few lights).
I don't think "when in doubt, reboot the whole house" is a valid troubleshooting method though.

[verbal drift]

OK, so after my sudden disconnection with my lamps, I turned them off for about 5 mins and then switched them back on and left them for an hour or so, this seemed to fix the issue the lamps reconnected and could be controlled. Weird drop outs, definately seems like a F/W issue.

[brazen canyon]

@spice harness any update on how things are going?

[blazing meadow]

If traditional convention wisdom is applicable here, a big part of their team at CES probably caught some wild virus that knocked them down for a good week.

(and those who were safe probably needed a full week to recover from the mental damage of talking with too many humans in a short while)

[scenic grove]

Yes CES booth manning and private meetings is very much an athletic sport. I did it for years and almost always came home sick as heck and worn down. Give them some time, I’m sure the engineers have been busy behind the scenes making various improvements that we will get to make benifit of soon

[lime willow]

Those of you that see multiple lights start to drop, do you have many other Thread devices from other manufacturers? Possible that if you don’t have a strong Thread mesh yet, then when one light crashes it weakens your thread mesh and others start to fall

I just have two Essentials (light strips) so it’s hard for me to troubleshoot. I’ve had crashes but only one at a time, but I have a pretty strong Thread mesh already

[brazen canyon]

Nah my problems are exclusively with nanoleaf

[verbal drift]

I have a couple of matter power sockets, which also dropped off the network. But are now back on. It’s like a previous poster said that the network is being flooded by some form of DDOS coming from the Nanoleaf devices maybe.

[craggy plaza]

I have 36 EVE devices (23 Matter over Thread, 13 HomeKit over Thread) and 11 Nanoleaf Matter Essentials. Another 25 Essentials are still lying around waiting to be installed.

14 of my EVE devices are Full Thread Devices (Mesh Extender). I also have two hardwired AppleTV4k 3rd Gen as my Thread Border Routers. Before I installed the Nanoleafs, I had a rock stable Thread network with my EVE devices.

But I have to admit, that I didn’t have much curiosities in my Thread network the last days. Sometimes the Nanoleafs hang, when switching them on/off. Then you have to wait wait a bit, before they react again. I think that’s the moment where a crash happened. The bulbs still switch on by itself.

[real arch]

I only have NanoLeaf devices on my Thread Network that otherwise has 6 border routers in various Google Hardware and my HA SkyConnect. The 3 NanoLeaf bulbs are in a room with 2 of these border routers, if they were any closer to them, they could reach out and touch. Not sure why it's still dropping / not finding the Thread network when I went about resetting them today to get them back into Matter control.

[verbal drift]

Personally right now I think the NL Matter implementation is immature and very unstable. I am confident the dev team will resolve, I think the frustration is a lot of people have invested in the NL Matter ecosystem only to find themselves doing the testing (outside of this group I mean). Sadly users becoming the 'beta' testers seems to be a very common thing, even though the item is classified as a mature product.

Like I say I am confident these bugs will be ironed out, but the tech industry needs to stop selling immature products to users who are not technically confident, because all this does is annoy the users and they end up going off the brand / product.

[frozen crystal]

I agree. I feel misled. No doubt the more sensible early adopters will be asking for their money back and driving big costs in the support and returns processes.

Again, what I would give for the bulletproof HomeKit firmware to be ported to these newer bulbs, freeing them from the shackles of Matter’s buggy implementation and limited functionality. For example, I hope that one day Apple’s Adaptive Lighting will be available on my GU10s…

[bitter compass]

I have 2 onvis matter sockets - which don't fall off the network, so I doubt it's a mesh strength issue. 3 of the Nanoleaf lights are in rooms with a Google Hub Gen 2 and the 3rd Nanoleaf is literally in the room next to the room that has 2 NL lights in it. There shouldn't be any strength problems. It is irritating because I keep getting notifications of good deals for both the A19 bulbs and the Essential light strip, but I can't justify spending any more more on Nanoleaf until the situation is rectified.

[swift phoenix]

I wonder how many resources or developers they pay to actually fix these problems. Seems likes its only 2 currently 😂.

CEO needs a smack in the face

[eternal hill]

Exactly, the people working on it probably have more than a full plate

[brazen canyon]

There's like 4 devs and all of us waiting for the next update be like

[swift phoenix]

https://tenor.com/view/tumbleweed-silence-gif-19279803

They had us all excited in the first half

[lime willow]

Has anyone else noticed their Essentials losing their “Power Loss Recovery” setting? I’ll turn it on, go back and check a few hours later and it’s toggled off again

(Essentials light strips with 3.6.94 beta firmware in my case.)

[bitter compass]

Mine doesn't even stick if I toggle it on, go back to the devices screen and then go back into the setting again.

[strong rune]

Same issue on release build (3.5.41)

[craggy plaza]

I also recognized this with the latest beta firmware. But when you try it more often, it will work. At least it was the case for me. But:

1. I use Apple Home and Home Assistant (maybe the iOS app is not directly comparable to the Android app)
2. I loose bulbs more often in Home Assistant, when I enable PLR

[dull dagger]

Firware Friday today?

[swift phoenix]

https://tenor.com/view/batman-gif-11018350

Beeeeeeennnnnnnnn

[rare aspen]

Hello everyone, when can we expect a new beta for Essentials to be enabled for Sync+ ?

[shell vigil]

I wish

[brazen canyon]

Only after they've fixed the stability I assume

[plain kettle]

its a shame to have no word/message from the product managers about it tho, they have been radio silence since CES

[spice harness]

Faisal has been wickedly sick post-CES, I've been heads down on these issues amongst other things. Apologies for the sparse communication - we're working directly with our chip vendor on a daily basis (a good chunk of the Matter implementation goes through them) on the current open issues but it's painfully slow-moving. No helpful updates I can provide at the moment 😕

[spice harness]

Can't comment on a concrete timeline on this either, unfortunately. The main issue we see right now is that the moment too many devices are being streamed to, practical throughput on the Thread network is hitting a cap which causes the experience to become really poor (some or all Essentials devices are receiving colours late or not at all, responding slower than the 4D strip and WiFi devices which creates an unpleasant popcorn effect). Practical throughput is lower than we expect and is also dependent on the acting border router, so the discussion for how to improve the situation here is happening with other BR vendors in the Thread group.

We've allowed Screen Mirror to our Thread devices on the desktop app for a while now but the use case of many Essentials devices was significantly more narrow when we launched that support (and still is given our metrics). Works reasonably well with a couple devices in 4D mode but gets worse the more Thread devices you add.

There are ways we're considering to get around the throughput issue even before progress is made with other Thread group members that still result in a great experience, but we've only got so much time in the day and we're more focused on fixing issues in production than delivering new features right now.

[rare aspen]

Full y with you on this, Ben

[bitter compass]

Yes, that's what I need to hear. Please work on fixing the reliability / stability issues first, and then I can go out and buy more nanoleaf stuff.

[brazen canyon]

I'd imagine especially if you don't have devices directly connected to a BR with potentially multiple hops away that could be a headache

Even with TREL

@spice harness also thanks for the advice about the "optionsMask" in the matter SDK, that fix made it in to the home assistant release today

[spice harness]

Glad to hear that was helpful! I've spent too much time picking through the Matter spec so always happy to share that knowledge 🙂

[craggy plaza]

Yeah, but if you have a house full of Thread Border Routers (e.g. AppleTVs and HomePods) that make use of TREL, you shouldn’t hit that throughput cap.

@spice harness Do I understand it right?

Aren't there also people here with very few Thread devices (Matter Nanoleaf Essentials), a Thread Border Router in the same room, that have the same issues?

[brazen canyon]

Yes but from their perspective they can't force people to buy border routers to have features, better off to just do matter over WiFi in that case, similar to holiday string

[craggy plaza]

Ok, but I have 36 EVE devices with 2 Thread Border Routers that are rock solid. Where is the difference between Nanoleaf and EVE Matter over Thread devices?

[brazen canyon]

Ben was talking about issues with the 4D feature for the essentials, not the general stability

[craggy plaza]

Ah, ok… Sorry, so I misunderstood… 🙃😊

Please, forget what I said…

I am not a native English speaker… 😉

[brazen canyon]

So no updates on stability front I'm afraid

[manic plover]

I'm 58 Nanoleaf light bulbs in (54 GU10 and 4 E27). About to add two dozen more.

I had massive problems, lights were offline very frequently. I've spent days debugging and I finally found a workaround which made a profound difference - to the point that it's "kinda working/almost acceptable" (still far from perfect though, especially in the case Ben mentioned - where I want to control many lights at once).

So, for those of you who are on Unifi/Ubiquiti network - try disabling IPv6. For some reason, despite Thread using IPv6 extensively, disabling it was the solution for me... Maybe Google Nest somehow handles this case and creates a local IPv6 network itself? No clue. But for those of you on Unifi, give it a shot 🙂

[bitter compass]

Yes, Border routers create a link local IPv6 network. So thread devices typically have an fd IPv6 address. As for Matter over WiFi devices, (and in fact any modern equipment) they should create themselves an IPv6 link local address too. As long as the router is not actively dropping any IPv6 packets.

[brazen canyon]

I'm surprised this works at all. Border routers do however handle the ipv6 themselves

[plain kettle]

honestly, that sounds more like a unifi issue, rather than a thread/ip issue

are you on the beta firmware for all your unifi gear?

[manic plover]

I had it configured because my ISP supports IPv6, with prefix delegation. It's been working fine across all my devices, but I haven't really been using any particular IPv6 functionalities. So disabling it doesn't really matter (no pun intended) for me. But made the Nanoleaf experience much better 🙂

[manic plover]

Tried all channels. And various configs. Multicast enhancement, IGMP, all possible combinations.

[plain kettle]

so your on the beta release of their firmware?

[manic plover]

At the moment - yes. But Unifi you can switch from beta/EA back to stable.

By channels, I mean I tried Unifi beta, EA and stable. Same issue across all.

[plain kettle]

yeah i know that. how many border routers have you got? and what ecosystem are you running on? (apple, google, home assistant)>

ah alright

[manic plover]

Just one at the moment, Google Home system, Nest Hub gen 2 as a border router.

[plain kettle]

in the GUI of the device settings in unifi, do you see a local link addresses? (in this area here)

[manic plover]

Also, the range on the latest Nanoleaf beta is better. Or maybe it is a bit more stable and lights with low signal are able to manage the comms.

I have 3 lights outside of the house, previously they were always offline. Now 2 of those are online most of the time, the last one showed up for maybe 1 day, since then it's offline, but I'm hopeful that some day it will also connect 😊

[manic plover]

Could you zoom out on the screenshot a bit? Not sure where this is.

[plain kettle]

Client devices on the side, then click on your google nest device, then click on ipv6 address

[plain kettle]

can you do it from the web browser

[manic plover]

I can't see IPv6, probably because I disabled it altogether.

[plain kettle]

local link address "should" still show

[manic plover]

Nope, can't see it in the web UI either.

[plain kettle]

ah right. all good, just not much debugging can be done as its hard to see the possible routes between having ipv6 enabled/disabled

[manic plover]

So if I enable IPv6 again, we should see all bulbs have a separate address? I can test it if it would be helpful.

[plain kettle]

sure

[manic plover]

Ok. I'll give it a shot.

[eternal hill]

do you turn on and off 10 eve devices at the same time like nanoleaf bulbs? Also eve devices can only turn on/off.

[brazen canyon]

Is that beta FW?

[plain kettle]

Yeah

It’s not the most reliable, but it isn’t the worse

[brazen canyon]

I run a dual ipv4 ipv6 stack and I don't have problems beyond nanoleafs firmware

[civic elbow]

Seriously, starting to get annoyed with all the lights randomly turning on by themselves. Also now when I look at the Nanoleaf app there is no option for firmware update. For the past few years, I have absolutely sung Nanoleaf praises, but at the moment I’m getting rather annoyed.

[scenic grove]

The release notes say that firmware updates are now part of the device menu. And they are. It’s nice to have all device stuff in one place.

[civic elbow]

So could you post a screenshot of where you check if the firmware is up to date? I can see the current firmware version but nothing actually saying “check firmware version “ or “check for updates” like literally every other company.

Also none of the matter A19 bulbs will keep power memory on. I spent over £130 updating the HomeKit versions to these and so far I can’t see any improvements over the last few updates. I do realise this is a beta software but a product that has already released to the public should have basic functionality, for example not randomly turning on 10 times a day.

[scenic grove]

It checks automatically if one is available a button will show up to let you update it if required right in the bubble for each device. I had a few of mine need an update this week and it works great. If you have updates pending there will be a red dot on the … bottom icon with the number of devices that need updates. So right now you have none pending.

[civic elbow]

That’s fair enough but if I’m confused regarding this how many others will be? A splash screen with new features would be an easy fix

[scenic grove]

Sounds like you are frustrated and I get it but it’s why we are here. It’s clear the folks at Nanoleaf are trying to get to the bottom of it and just need a bit of time to settle the issue and gather more feedback to hopefully hear broad success that they have it sorted. Im going to imagine we will learn more in a week or so about next steps. I also suspect if folks who volunteered to help them in this forum continue to bring pitchforks they might not be as inclined to be so accessible in the future. Is this optimal that something bought at retail is so spotty and down right broken? No. I’m sure their support team is fielding a ton of calls for help and that always drives engineering priorities, so I’m choosing to stay positive and know they always have in the past gotten to the bottom of issues.

[scenic grove]

I’m going to guess you are perhaps on android? In IOS TestFlight it shows up as a splash screen with text when it updates any build, that’s how I saw it. But that’s just for testers. I suspect normal consumers aren’t randomly looking for firmware updates. Especially as much as we are. And the red dot and folks seeing action buttons on the impacted devices will get them there when the need comes.

[civic elbow]

You are correct. I have had an enormously crappy day and anyone from NanoLeaf please don’t take it personally. I have had a long day and got frustrated after being punched by a complete stranger who thought I was someone else. Incidentally I’m on iOS and I now feel even more stupid because I forgot about bloody TestFlight.

[scenic grove]

Now that totally stinks! No need to feel stupid. Bad days happen but damn it sounds like you’ve had the worst kind today. Hopefully you get some rest this weekend!

[civic elbow]

Fingers crossed. I have to pair 4 tarantulas on Sunday so that’ll be fun. Sorry for the short reply I gave you.

[scenic grove]

Screams and runs around the room in uncontrollable fear! 🕷️🕷️🕷️🕷️eeeeeek!

[civic elbow]

They’re not bad really 😊

[scenic grove]

But but but … but … buuuuuuuuuuut!

[civic elbow]

Going to try to sleep now since it’s 4:57am.

[scenic grove]

Yeah I figured it’s late midnight on the other side of the pond here in Boston. Risking awkward stranger danger but .. hug have a good rest - tomorrow will be better!

[civic elbow]

Thank you, I’m sure it will be. I’ll be more productive tomorrow.

[swift phoenix]

https://tenor.com/view/huh-what-blinking-no-hell-no-gif-9242657503539909814

[bitter compass]

@civic elbow though you do the firmware updates in the devices menu, when firmware is available a massive banner telling you firmware is available appears at the top of the dashboard screen.

[brazen canyon]

I don't think anyone owes nanoleaf anything regarding not bringing pitchforks. Shiny glitter wasn't demeaning anyone or being rude, merely sharing his frustration that most of us have. There have been only marginal improvements in the troubles we have all seen since launch, months ago.

Nanoleaf isn't doing us a favor by having us in a software beta, we're doing them a favor by essentially providing them free labor

[frozen crystal]

I had a remarkable exchange of emails recently with support, discussing why UK law (Consumer Rights Act) takes precedence over their corporate policy, regarding restocking fees for goods which are faulty or unfit for purpose. That’s one for another thread… 🙄

[shell vigil]

Soon in April will be 6 months since this is not working (since the launch and my purchase), it might be a moment for the issues to be escalated to EU consumer right protection office.. they have offices in Europe which makes it easier to raise a complain about the firm

[lyric panther]

I have a single Matter A19 bulb. I am unable to connect it to my homekit network. I'm using HomePod mini as the hub. Firmware is 3.6.94 and hardware version is 4.08. The Nanoleaf app can see and control the bulb (using TestFlight version 10.3.0 (583). I'd like to buy some more of these bulbs for another area in my home, but right now, I don't trust that they'd work successfully. I have several pre-Matter Essential bulbs and lightstrips and they all work as expected.

[shell vigil]

I wouldn’t buy new ones until it’s sure issues with the firmware are solved

@spice harness any news when we have a new firmware? I think everyone in this forum deserve to have an exact date of when things will eventually work

[frozen crystal]

Has the HomePod/tvOS 17.3 update improved anything for you guys? I wonder if there’s an interoperability issue here between Apple Home and the Nanoleaf firmware. As if by magic, I have previously offline devices rejoining the Thread network.

[brazen canyon]

They could have changed the matter resubscription behavior on apples end which won't have fixed the problem -- the bulb performance shouldn't be dependent on the matter controller

[spice harness]

Believe me, if I had an exact date to give, I would. We're working on this every day.

[shell vigil]

Thanks, I’ll wait until the end of January, if no fix for the firmeware or products I’ll return my 80 gu10 🙂

[scenic grove]

I’m not seeing an improvement with 17.3 was hoping for some. In fact after the update I had to powercycle the bulbs.

[spice harness]

We've seen instances where the SRP server appears to lock up on Apple border routers before so that could explain this behaviour (rebooting the HomePod/TV would fix it), although if that was the sole root cause for your specific issue then all Thread devices using that SRP server should have gone offline (depending on how long your setup was left for and the lease time of each of those devices).

[frozen crystal]

Thank you. That’s interesting. I had tried rebooting many times before so that wasn’t it for me. I won’t touch anything now then… we are enjoying having lights in at least some rooms which can be turned on and off remotely

[eternal hill]

every time i reboot my setup it actually takes some hours before everything is back to being stable again.

[frozen crystal]

And trying to change the colour of many Matter bulbs in a short space of time causes the mesh to collapse and No Response

[verbal drift]

Think you need to give them a little more time than that. This is not an overnight fix

[plain kettle]

they have been having issues ever since the matter bulbs/update was released

@spice harness can you confirm if its an issues with sillabs and compatibility with your firmware? or rather they are just slow to respond to your enquiries regarding fixes?

[shell vigil]

Well I have the issues since last year , since their release, it’s not my problem if they released a product that doesn’t work honestly , I work in a tech company and we ensure all@our products are working prior release. Look at Philips hue, I haven heard that many people having issues with their products and neither they release a defected firmeware. They are rock solid.
Sorry but I didn’t pay all that money to get a faulty firmware, if I knew I would have bought Philips hue. I don’t have 1 or 2 bulbs, I have 80 gu10 10 strips 10 meter each and 10 A19 bulbs. You are all being very patient and accepting a faulty product that doesn’t work. This is not in my standard. You pay for something that works otherwise don’t realease that until it works.

[dapper acorn]

I have noticed that my a19 has been working flawlessly for a few weeks now

[plain kettle]

how many you got?

the breaking limit appears to be 12

[dapper acorn]

Oh, oof

I only have 1 setup rn

My other ones kept glitching so much I reset them. Haven’t tried setting up in a while

[craggy plaza]

1 is not comparable…

[dapper acorn]

No, it really isn’t

[craggy plaza]

I have 11 bulbs active in my Thread network with round about 50 devices. My Thread network is relatively stable over all. Sometimes I loose a bulb that doesn’t come back to home assistant on its own and some bulbs are switching on by itself sometimes.

Seemingly Nanoleaf did not implement proactive case resubscriptions in their firmware. Apple Home works fine, but Home Assistant needs that. Please, correct if I am wrong. 😉

[brazen canyon]

They claimed they did and I believe it, but I think it just isn't super reliable. You hear of people power cycling to get bulbs back, which would be a proactive resub, at least for HA

[craggy plaza]

@brazen canyon Did they claim that? Where? 😃 Yesterday for example. I made the update to Apple OS 17.3 on all my Apple devices. When I was ready, again some of my Nanoleafs didn’t get back online in Home Assistant, while all my EVE devices were working as expected and were available. So I power cycled the respective bulbs. Some came back, some not. So, I decided to reboot my HA machine. After a second reboot all Nanoleaf bulbs and EVE devices came back online. I do not see this issue with EVE devices. This happens only to Nanoleaf bulbs.

[brazen canyon]

It's somewhere in the proceeding messages but hard to sort them

Well maybe not

[bitter compass]

SOMEONE claimed there was a limit - but it wasn't a nanoleaf official

there's no technical reason nanoleaf bulbs should have a limit when other thread devices don't. Ben did however talk about issues with syncing multiple bulbs together over thread.

[craggy plaza]

Limits are described here:

There are limits to the number of device types a single Thread network supports.

Role Limit
Leader 1
Router 32
End Device 511 per Router

Thread tries to keep the number of Routers between 16 and 23. If a REED attaches as an End Device and the number of Routers in the network is below 16, it automatically promotes itself to a Router.

Source: https://openthread.io/guides/thread-primer/node-roles-and-types?hl=en#device_limits

So in theory you can have a lot of devices:

32 x 511 = 16352
or 23 x 511 = 11753
or 16 x 511 = 8176

Nothing we have to take into account at the moment. But when one of the bulbs in your Thread network crashes and it is in the Thread Router role, it can initiate a re-mesh in your Thread network. The more bulbs you have, the more likely this will happen. At least this is my understanding. And when such a re-mesh can result in a crash, it maybe can’t stop to re-mesh. But this didn’t happen with my 11 bulbs anymore since I am using 3.6.x beta firmware.

In the HA community we all (at least some of us) came to the same conclusion. There is a Nanoleaf limit, before everything goes wrong. This limit is considered to be between 10 and 15 bulbs.

And by the way… Nanoleaf always described some kind of a ’limit‘ for their bulbs in the product specifications:

Max bulbs paired via Thread: Unlimited. Performance may decrease in large networks of 20+ devices.

Source: https://nanoleaf.me/en-US/products/essentials/bulbs/?category=A19-E26&standard=matter&size=each&specs=true

I am unsure what Nanoleaf wants to tell us with such a note in the specification. Unlimited, ok 8176 to 16352 Thread devices is unlimited from the home use perspective. But the performance already decreases with 20+ bulbs. Yes, 20 bulbs is nearly the same as 8000… 😃

How we can achieve a reliable Thread network with more than 1000 devices is a mystery to me. How many Thread Border Routers with TREL do we need to get such a big Thread network stable? 😉

[brazen canyon]

Yea that's me and based on practical, real world feedback from many people. If there's too much traffic on the thread network that goes through the bulbs they crash. It shouldn't happen but it does

[bitter compass]

By suggesting performance might suffer, that could be the same thing Ben has already mentioned - eg if you tried to change the state of 20+ bulbs at once, it might not be as responsive as one would hope. But there is no reason that the network in general should suffer. Indeed just like Zigbee, the mesh should be performing better with more (powered) devices.

[brazen canyon]

Yes unless the bulbs are acting as routers (which they are) and crashing (which they are) causing the thread network to destabilize

I dunno what to tell you there's plenty of reports with people having serviceable experiences if you have around 10 bulbs or leas

[bitter compass]

I don't know about that, while the nanoleaf bulbs are on and off the network, it's not having any effect on the 2 onvis sockets that are running over Thread and have been rock stable since the day they were installed

So the thread network itself is not being impacted by the nanoleaf wonkiness - it's just the nanoleaf bulbs themselves

[craggy plaza]

@bitter compass How many bulbs do you have?

[brazen canyon]

Is it really fair to draw conclusions from your personal experience though? There's plenty of evidence running contrary to your point, just scroll up

Did you check the routes to your onvis sockets? If they aren't meshing and are directly connected to a BR then sure they wouldn't be impacted

[bitter compass]

I have 3 bulbs and 1 LED strip. Oh I am definitely not having a great experience with the nanoleaf stuff. But while they are misbehaving and dropping off the network, or just going unavailable on matter, while still claiming to be connected to Thread - my non nanoleaf devices are continuing to work normally

[bitter compass]

I would LOVE to check the routes - but I have no idea how to do that.

[craggy plaza]

Yeah, that’s the limit we are talking about. You are under 10 to 15 bulbs, so you do not recognize (or do not have) the issue.

[bitter compass]

So Trel is going to disguise the issue rather than fix it?

[brazen canyon]

https://openthread.io/reference/cli

You'll have to use a dev board (or a skyconnect maybe) and dig through the OTBR to really investigate

Edit: you can even get a dev board for the platform used in the bulb if you want

https://www.silabs.com/blog/silicon-labs-bg24-and-mg24-socs-now-available-to-help-customers-and-partners-bring-matter-ai-ml-and-innovation-to-iot

[brazen canyon]

Depends on network topology -- I doubt it will help unless you have more BRs. If the issue is actually too much traffic through the bulb (since it's acting as a router, but not a BR) and it's meshed to several devices then increased throughout between BRs might not help

[stark crystal]

Hue isn't flawless either, I read many people had issues with their Matter update.

Honestly, there seems to be an industry-wide problem with Matter adoption and stability.

[shell vigil]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Hue/s/Z1Hj1ExzUk

Here is their sub Reddit, it’s mostly about how to not that their device not working. At least you hear from people that they’re smart home working. At least if there is an issue, they work on a fix .. not half a year after 😂

[eternal hill]

thread is not a flooding mesh, so its gonna help to reduce traffic

Most traffic is going from the bulbs back to the matter controller. This is should already be working "optimal" without trel.

Trel just helps to chose a better point "into" the network, by routing to the best border router before hitting the thread network

and for communication between thread devices

[bitter compass]

should be - but we still have the issue of BR fromdifferent manufacturers, that is not fully resolved (credential sharing - and who gets to decide whic thread network is the primary that all the other BRs will follow)

[eternal hill]

Im talking about having multiple border routers in the same thread network.

And its already possible, i have my homepod mini, google nest hubs and homeAssistant otbr in the same thread network.

Its not straight forward though.

[bitter compass]

Exactly, I mean out-of-the-box. Matter is designed for people who aren't us. I've already had a friend pick up some Wiz bulbs from a local UK supermarket. So Matter stuff is getting to the main shops. But when the Thread stuff makes it there, we need to be at the stage where someone buys something with the matter (and Thread) logo, takes it home and it just works, regardless of whether they have SmartThings, Aqara, Google, Apple, Amazon. It's very clear that in the next few years we are going to end up with more devices that double as BR - so these things need to start playing together - out of the box.

[plain kettle]

oh for sure, unfortunately it seems that some vendors are faster at releasing stuff than some "admins" (looking at you google) are at releasing meaningful updates to support products to their best capacity

[brazen canyon]

I don't think this is universally true, so feel free to expand on this scenario.

Suppose there's two rooms connected by a hallway and there's bulbs in both rooms and the hallway. There's one BR in one room but not the other. If I add TREL to the existing BR, or if I add another BR to the same room where one already exists, how will that improve performance of bulbs in the other room with no BR?

I agree with the flowing network part, but I don't agree that TREL and/or adding BRs universally improved performance

In this case, the bulbs in the hallway must relay the traffic to the room with no BRs

[plain kettle]

and not all vendors support it/and or only allow it to be used under some feature flags that no one knows what they are. trel should not be relied upon for a stable network for a basic setup of a few bulbs

[eternal hill]

if the br is close enough to the hallway, the bulb in the hallway will might be skipped or instead of taking 2 hops, just 1 is needed. But yes, in general it doesn't improve the network quality to add a router in the other end of the house, but that kind of obvious.

[eternal hill]

Trel just improves the message to bulbs by chosing the br with the least routes into the network. To simplify it, all you send is "ON" or "OFF". Most of the traffic is coming back from the bulbs, like "OFF, 255 brightness, green.....". This is already taking the shortest path ot of the network.

[lyric panther]

Still can't add my matter essential bulb to homekit after updating my homepod to 17.3.

[upbeat mica]

I think one of my GU10 bulbs is dying on this beta. Does not always turn on, even when i cut the power for a while and try again... I regret trying the beta as it just got worse. Hopefully there will be a new one soon. Or they could at least let us downgrade to stable build.

[stark crystal]

I'm debating whether to try this beta. I almost feel that my six bulbs can't possibly get worse than they are right now, however at least they still work through the Nanoleaf app.

I get constant disconnects from Google Home and Home Assistant. My Thread network is very robust with four Thread Border Routers (Nest Hub, Home Assistant SkyConnect and two NL Shapes controllers), but that does not seem to help at all.

[plain kettle]

Even when you update, the will continue to work in the Nanoleaf app

Also, are all of your border routers on the same thread network?

[stark crystal]

It works because of Bluetooth fallback. My Thread network is constantly crashing.

[plain kettle]

Yeah I know

[stark crystal]

Yes I confirmed this through the Home Assistant and Nanoleaf apps. When it works, all four TBRs mesh together.

I actually have a fifth TBR with SmartThing Hub, but that one does not work at all and refuses to mesh with the others. I have given up on SmartThings but still want the others to work.

I honestly don't know if Nest Hub is to blame, Home Assistant, Nanoleaf or all of them.

The Matter promise is for everything to work together harmoniously, but instead something is constantly crashing my Thread network.

[plain kettle]

Nanoleaf is the issue

[frozen crystal]

Three of my GU10s now refuse to illuminate. I wonder if they are dead or if it is indeed a firmware thing. Perhaps the next update will tell…

[feral steeple]

Hopefully there is some word on another update and hopefully it makes things a bit more stable

[azure fox]

Hey everyone. Im using firmware 3.6.94. this night my lamps (GU10) randomly turned on 3 times and I don’t know why. Out of 7 GU10 lamps only one of them turned on each time.

Otherwise the new Firmeware works a lot better than the old ones. The Thread network connection is a lot more stable. I only recognized, that the Nanoleaf app on IOS sometimes crashes then I change colors. Maybe the app sends more commands to the network than it can handle.

[verbal drift]

I think thats a new feature!! Random light control

[steel hemlock]

I'd agree. The current beta firmware is far more stable then the current official release.
At least, in my case with 2 stripes and round about 30 Matter GU10.

But, the current beta is still not stable itself! As already mentioned in here, there is much work to do regarding the next software release.

[craggy plaza]

Yes, I agree too. But my wife is getting more and more annoyed that she has to switch off various lights in the morning. I'm more annoyed by the fact that I occasionally lose lights in Home Assistant and they don't automatically resubscribe. Since my wife doesn't really notice this, it doesn't bother her. However, I often think about throwing the Nanoleafs out again so that I don't have to constantly disconnect lights from the power or restart the Home Assistant Matter server.

[civic elbow]

I’ve seen a fair few comments from everyone regarding the matter bulbs. From my perspective I see it like this: literally every other thread/matter device is working perfectly (and I’m on beta with quite a few other companies). The communication from NanoLeaf on here is absolutely abysmal compared with EVERY other company I work with. Beta testers are doing a favour by identifying issues and testing in real world. I could understand if these were not released in the public yet but I spent a lot of money on my 12 bulbs and so far there has been nothing but issues, a lack of communication from NanoLeaf and quite frankly a poor quality of updates when you consider the communication and support from other companies.

And if anyone from NanoLeaf is reading can we please have an update on what is happening? Are you looking at fixing anything in the first quarter? Is there a reason you can’t fix one issue, say stopping the lights randomly turning on, then working on the next issue, then the next? I think everyone here is getting rather annoyed and you need to address it.

[brazen canyon]

Not sure how much information they can/will share so I'll provide some reasonable speculation in the meantime. This is all public information and I'm not an insider at nanoleaf or anything, I just also want to see the issue fixed and spent too much time looking into the issue

I think the issue is really on the chip itself. Nanoleaf is using the MG24 chipset from SiLabs, which has their own matter stack that Nanoleaf does not develop, but uses to control the bulb. There's been anecdotal evidence from those with the devboard that this chipset, despite being a flagship from SiLabs, is slow and is having issues. The problems we are seeing (bulbs randomly turning on, thread network stability, etc) are a result of the MG24 chipset crashing. This likely happens more often when the bulbs have increased traffic load. The bulbs are being used as thread routers ("mesh extender" in the nanoleaf app) to pass thread traffic to downstream devices, and when too much traffic comes through, they crash. That's would also explain why there's variation in behavior that people are seeing, if most of your bulbs are close to a border router, then the instability and lights turning on are less prevalent. (This aligns with my own observations that bulbs acting as routers tend to be less stable than those that are not).

Another confounding factor is nanoleaf is also running their proprietary stack on the chipset alongside matter. How much this impacts the issue, I'm not sure.

This puts nanoleaf in an awkward position where they purchased a flagship chipset from a vendor, explicitly designed for IoT thread/matter devices, and it's not working well. It would be financially difficult to issue a hardware revision so their only real choice is to make the MG24 chipset work, hence we have these small optimizations like the .94 update to shift around RAM allocations. I'm guessing that the delay in new updates is nanoleaf being stuck waiting on feedback/support from SiLabs

I'm just listing that out because Nanoleaf won't come out and throw their supplier under the bus (for obvious reasons) regardless of what the situation is

[plain kettle]

Yep. It’s safe to assume it’s some sort of upstream issue

[civic elbow]

Hi @brazen canyon Yes you have given a brilliant explanation and thank you for taking the time to write this out. I think people would be a lot more understanding if someone from NanoLeaf would at least say something like “really sorry about the situation, we are trying to work on this issue and we will try to give an update on this date, the problems we are facing are due to x y & z.” So far you have given a better customer experience for people than NanoLeaf themselves.

It’s not like I’m hating on them either, I genuinely think the previous HomeKit versions were the best bulbs I’ve ever had but to put these in the public domain is a serious miscalculation.

[brazen canyon]

I mean this is probably the most they can say #1184371187464290344 message

I think if they committed to providing regular updates even if it was not a firmware update, (e.g., we will check in every Wednesday) that would be in improvement though

[verbal drift]

I do agree that @spice harness could be a little more transparent and give us more info. As beta testing goes communication back and forth is key to helping the teams out.

[plain kettle]

Yep

[spice harness]

Transparency incoming 🙂

As a high-level summary, all builds before 3.6.x were built on Matter 1.0 (with some patches here and there for critical issues and bug fixes in the SDK). 3.6.x is where we have so far been only able to move up to 1.1 - in our internal testing with 1.2 and many different configurations, our 1.2 builds would drop off Thread almost immediately after commissioning (or if not immediately, within 12 hours at the longest). This has been increasingly narrowed down to an incompatibility between some of the libraries provided by our chip vendor and that particular version of the Matter SDK, which is the thing that I commented on previously being excruciatingly slow to resolve (despite it being a daily focus). Meanwhile, the 1.1 builds and their matching libraries have known issues (the bugs that you're all experiencing) and are clearly not meaningfully improved from the current version in production.

So basically throughout this beta we've been stuck at 1.1 + bad library when we've really wanted to move to 1.2 + good library, but have been dealing with an assortment of technical issues preventing that roll-up and testing. Being stuck at 1.1 + bad library has meant attempting to make bandaid fixes to mitigate fundamental issues.

There is light at the end of the tunnel. We've had some breakthroughs in the last day with some additional patches that have allowed us to actually get to 1.2 + good library and initial results are promising. I had been able to reproduce the Thread drop-off issue within 12 hours on every 1.2 build up until the last one, which is still happily on the network and controllable by Apple Home in my setup. We're running stability testing in several setups over the weekend and then looking to push 1.2 + good library to all of you assuming results are good. If results are not good, we have another possible workaround on 1.1 + bad library that may improve behaviour in at least some of your scenarios for the time being.

[plain kettle]

Glad to see the added transparency, thanks for that

[brazen canyon]

So to summarize, most of the dev effort has been into making 1.2 workable (not yet released as an update) while just holding 1.1 together with duct tape (our current 3.6.x builds) until 1.2 is ready?

[eternal hill]

They probably need to certify their 1.2 builds, so i guess fixing the 1.1 is making it possible to push updates out faster.

I would not call it duct tape.

[plain kettle]

I would be interested to see the CSA’s stance on it, would you need to certify a bulb if its in “beta” with a limited sample size/deployment size

[brazen canyon]

He mentioned bandaid fixes which I would say is analogous to duct tape

[eternal hill]

Have you tried adding HomeAssistant into the setup?

My setup with just Apple Home was working perfectly until i added HomeAssistant

Its still working good 95% of the time though

[plain kettle]

With a OTBR?

Or just in terms of another admin controlling it?

[eternal hill]

Admin controlling it

[plain kettle]

Right, so multi admin

[spice harness]

The spirit of CSA certification is ultimately to ensure compliance with the standard is upheld, which theoretically has the end-user benefit of baseline confidence in seeing a product with the Matter badge. We've been in the state for the past while where the standard is being upheld and yet the user experience is suffering. We (obviously) have no qualms with testing fixes we view as urgent and overdue ahead of receiving actual cert if it means an improved user experience, so long as we shore up our cert status on paper within a reasonable time period (ideally before) release to prod. Many interactions with the fine folks on the CSA cert team ever since before launch have led to my intimate understanding of their policies 🙂

[plain kettle]

Ah yeah, understandable!

[spice harness]

In a sense. We spent quite a bit of effort to also see if we could get ourselves into a state of 1.1 + good library (less bandaid-y) during the period that we were completely stalled on 1.2 progress, but the inability to do so is what shifted us back to bandaid fixes + hard push on roll-up. It's been quite tough for the whole team feeling like we're spinning our wheels without much progress despite the amount of time we're putting in to get to a resolution, and I apologize for the lack of updates, but that's because I haven't really felt like we've had anything productive to share until today.

[spice harness]

I have not, unfortunately (this is my home setup). I might have a spare Pi lying around that I could potentially repurpose for HA, but at the very least in the short-term I'll ensure multi-admin with 2+ admins is checked in at least one of the test setups this weekend.

[brazen canyon]

Seems like matter is harder to work with than how the CSA would make it seem

[plain kettle]

I mean, most likely vendor specific and its implementation

[plain kettle]

Yeah, most of the users who are having issues are running a setup of google home/HA or Apple/HA. Rather than just a single admin

[eternal hill]

Yeah, but also makes sense if more problems are seen with more “radio” signals.

[brazen canyon]

There's a lot of gotchas I feel with HA so probably enough on their plate without testing that too -- we already provide some of that anyways

[spice harness]

For those of you running Google/HA or Apple/HA, just for my own curiosity, why did you decide to run both?

[plain kettle]

The automations and integrations are far superior to what you can get in google home/apple

Along with the fact many manufacturers have an app that only works with that platforms smart home ecosystem (eg. Nanoleaf app only works with devices that have been connected previously to apple home)

And the fact that currently with devices like eve’s who follow the spec, OTA updates are currently only supported on Apple HomeKit

[spice harness]

So basically you can't get all the functionality you want in one place, correct?

[plain kettle]

Yeah, everyone may give a slightly different reason. But that’s a large outline.

The matter spec is currently too restrictive where you need the manufacturers app for anything other than basic toggling/monitoring, and need to be done though the already existing ecosystem.

And the fact that the matter spec supported multi admin, most people just do it anyways

[swift phoenix]

Home Assistant is the Brains and Apple is just the nice UI look that works with phones

I dont setup any automations via apple.

[plain kettle]

A big example is power monitoring, the spec doesn’t officially have it listed yet. But eve supports it in custom clusters through Apple HomeKit, allowing you to see in their app.

Only recently after the HA matter devs were in talks with eve themselves that they have access/found the custom clusters so now it can be displayed and integrated in HA for power monitoring

[swift phoenix]

Would be awesome if Nanoleaf could share some clusters with HA devs. Maybe scenes or something?

[brazen canyon]

I don't run a multi admin, just HA but I use Google to help commission

And my thread network is a menagerie of BRs

So I wouldn't say issues are exclusive to multi admin setups

[eternal hill]

Automations from HA are Way better + i have Shellies in all of my contacts and fx use a mix of a Door and motion sensor to detect presence in my bathroom. Cant do that in Apple Home.
The native integration of Apple Home on my iPhone and HomePods is superiour through

[spice harness]

Faisal may be able to comment on this better, but wherever possible we've been looking to have things align with the Matter spec and ecosystem support of such clusters. The standard Mode Select cluster on paper actually presents itself as a pretty good option to at least allow for selection of our "Scenes" in a dynamic and named format without needing to resort to a custom cluster. The catch is that at this time, most ecosystems don't support it. Mode Select is the most likely path forward for us to expose our Scenes over Matter. We'd much rather build something that can be used by all admins rather than having effectively an HA-specific implementation (since custom cluster support/access is also hit and miss in the big ecosystem apps) that gets superseded by something that works everywhere later.

[spice harness]

Definitely not exclusive, that's for sure.

[eternal hill]

Isnt that basically fixed soon, when Google gets their new api out?

(The custom cluster support)

[plain kettle]

Who knows when google will, that’s the thing

[eternal hill]

I read something about april somewhere

[plain kettle]

Also, may as well keep it in-line with spec than give everyone custom solutions

[blazing meadow]

Didn't Google fire a bunch of people in that whole "home" division too? I doubt it would help.

[plain kettle]

Apparently

And their nest devices haven’t had a firmware update since the 6th of December

[blazing meadow]

Google/SmartThings, as I wanted to see for myself what each system could do. SmartThings definitely allows for more customisation (like having a timer on a switched on bulb).

[frozen crystal]

Is there any chance of Apple’s Adaptive Lighting ever being supported through the Matter spec?

[plain kettle]

That’s more of a question for the CSA, rather than Nanoleaf

[swift phoenix]

I can’t remember if I asked this before. @spice harness When talking about lights transitioning to different colors in a fade rather than an instant flash, is that something that can be overrided in Home assistant like we did with the color override fix?

I know you said its not in spec, but im wondering if its possible to share the solution so Home Assistant users can benefit from it?

[brazen canyon]

Mine already fade in and out, but it is also a parameter you can pass in the spec

It's the transitiontime parameter

I've already verified it works via the websocket so we just would need the dev team to update that

[frozen crystal]

Indeed. But I am interested in others’ opinions, particularly since Ben has dealings with the standards body

[plain kettle]

Also, apples adaptive lighting might be propriety tech, so i doubt they will give away secrets for nothing

[brazen canyon]

Actually @spice harness can you comment on transition time at all? it's quite nice in the app, but using transitionTime in the matter spec comes out quite rough, like it just jumps a few steps rather than performing smoothly like you'd expect. Like the number of intermediate transition states are too few.

The spec says It is recommended that, where possible (e.g., it is not possible for attributes with Boolean data type), a gradual transition SHOULD take place from the old to the new state over this time period. However, the exact transition is manufacturer dependent.

I think the app uses a 0.5s transition time

[spice harness]

If you're referring to the "device and structure support" APIs that Google announced at the last I/O, my understanding is that's only for exposing functionality in third party vendor apps (doesn't allow custom clusters to be interacted with through the Google Home App itself).

[frozen crystal]

The proprietary intelligence is in the endpoints. Matter just needs to support the messaging for such functionality

[eternal hill]

Are you sure? Doesn’t it expose the matter clusters from the Google fabric to 3rd party apps like Apple does already?

[spice harness]

Adaptive Lighting is really just a series of long-running colour temperature ramps + "dim-to-warm" functionality. All of this is accessible through clusters today and just requires the implementation, timing, and target points of those ramps to be fleshed out on the admin side. I would say it's likely only a matter of time before Apple and others bring forward implementations for this.

[frozen crystal]

Fantastic news! Thank you. I shall keep everything crossed…

[spice harness]

That's exactly what I mean, but the point being that we want to expose scene selection on our Matter devices in ecosystem apps. We care much less about the other way around because we can already do whatever we want with our own products in the Nanoleaf app, although the "pull back" scenario (user pairs device in ecosystem app but not Nanoleaf app) is still a valid case where we might seek to leverage these APIs.

[spice harness]

Can you clarify which case specifically you're seeing the stutter in? (ColorTemperature, Hue/Sat, Brightness, etc.)

[brazen canyon]

Specifically looking at color transitions either with MoveToHueAndSaturation or MoveToColorTemperature -- it seems that the number of steps (i.e, the # of colors that are cycled) is dependent on the transition time. So for example, if I do transitionTime=5 it steps through like 4 intermediate colors, but if I use transitionTime=50 it obviously takes longer, but it also uses more steps

okay actually it looks like it's hard coded into the sdk colorHueTransitionState->stepsRemaining = max<uint16_t>(transitionTime, 1);

[eternal hill]

Fair enough, I misunderstood what you meant. But wouldn’t what i described also practically “increase” the theoughput to the thread devices when adding more nanoleaf specific features, since its just one “master” needing to track the State of the lights?

[swift phoenix]

Im talking about switching colors from an ON light. Because going from red to blue is instant not transitional.

[verbal drift]

@spice harness thank you so much for taking the time to engage with the beta community and giving us your insight. We will of course help you as much as we are able! Thanks

[brazen canyon]

Yeah I understand now, it's not really as straightforward as just changing the transitionTime in the bulb command, depending on how the color is changed the method by which the change occurs is a bit different. But regardless the issue is that the number of transition steps is tied to the transition time -- there's no exposed command that I can find to change that so I'm not sure how Nanoleaf implements it in the app

[spice harness]

In some cases, maybe, but without the guarantee that we can access all of the capabilities we want in all combinations of ecosystems and devices, it doesn't make sense for us right now to go all-in on using the Matter protocol for everything (including our app communication) when we have a fully fleshed out proprietary protocol that is already implemented throughout our products and apps. Not only that, but our own protocol also gives us some key benefits for Matter devices like being able to support Bluetooth fallback in border router failure/absence cases.

If we were to go down the rabbit hole of shifting entirely away from any usage of our proprietary protocol to place everything through Matter, that would likely need to be coupled with the Nanoleaf mobile and desktop apps becoming Matter admins, management of our own Fabric, etc., which is a gargantuan can of worms.

[eternal hill]

Yeah, i totally get it does not make sense right now, especially with Matter not being 100 % smooth everywhere yet and Thread not living up to its potential yet and you already having another solution.

But my thought was using the existing fabric, since it’s probably problematic when multiple phones want to be a controller in one fabric.
But thanks a lot for taking all the time answering 😊

[spice harness]

Doing what I can 🙂 It's great to hear from you folks and the diversity of hardware, software, and RF environments simply makes it impossible to test all permutations ourselves, which is where groups like this come in to at least cover some degree of that. I understand everyone's frustration with our Matter over Thread devices thus far (we're just as frustrated!) and just know that this is currently our top priority.

[plain kettle]

Oh for sure, I’m glad to see a priority to fix the issues, especially where a HaaS business like you guys requires constant selling of new hardware

Glad to see a (at least not yet) approach to SaaS, and also working on fixing/improving old hardware with new features

[shell vigil]

@spice harness meanwhile is it possible to downgrade to the previous beta ? Asking as the previous one was pretty stable and my whole appartment is running on Nanoleaf with 35 gu10 and 5 strips (it was 80% better than now.)

[spice harness]

Which version exactly was working better for you? There's a migration that occurred going from Matter 1.0 -> 1.1 that unfortunately prevents us from taking any device back down to 3.5.x builds after being on 3.6.x, but I may be able to path back within the 3.6.x set. That being said, I think I'd rather push interested folks up to the Matter 1.2 build as opposed to downgrading so long as you're comfortable with the understanding that you are stability testing it alongside us.

[shell vigil]

3.6.71 ? I don’t remember exactly @spice harness I have 3.6.94 now the previous one was much more stable , beta 3.6.71 I think

[verbal drift]

What is the firmware build number supporting Matter 1.2 ?

[plain kettle]

I’m curious tho, if any one of our devices were to be confirmed to be bricked from using the beta. Would we still get the typical warranty and support? Or just left in the dust/voided?

Not saying it’s likely. Just to be reaffirmed with doing this as with the large amounts of different platforms that there is definitely a risk present

[civic elbow]

@spice harness may I say thank you for taking the time to address this, I also apologise for the way in which I showed my frustration. This was mainly due to the lack of information and frustration at being woken up multiple times. Now this has been explained in this way, it helps to dispel some of that frustration. Also I am not currently running HA. Just HomeKit and Alexa.

[shell vigil]

I am about to get a divorce because of the lights, keep waking everyone at home, not working , disconnecting, flashing, not the right colors , I select warm white scene I end up having green lol

[spice harness]

Builds that have been released to beta are 3.6.54, 3.6.70, 3.6.79, and 3.6.94. From the feedback gathered in this channel, many seemed to agree that 3.6.79 was a regression in behaviour from previous builds so it sounds like 3.6.70 is maybe where you'd want to be if I roll you back. That being said, the colour discrepancy issue is a totally new one to me.

I'm assuming that's a no to rolling up to the 1.2 build early? In either case I'll need you to shoot me a DM with your serial numbers. Goal is to get the 1.2 build out to everyone by Monday anyways.

[shell vigil]

@spice harness look I am to video call and show how it’s behaving. It’s really strange in many ways. 3.6.79 was the best for me I didn’t see much different between 3.6.70 and 79

@spice harness dmd you

[spice harness]

I'd see to it that any truly bricked devices get replaced at no cost. I would ask for the devices to be shipped back to us for analysis but we would initiate a shipment to you in parallel.

[spice harness]

All good, I understand. Thanks for the additional info, make sure any HomeKit home hub devices are updated to 17.3.

[plain kettle]

All good, just making sure as other companies have a very different idea of warranties (as in is voided) after they release public betas

[civic elbow]

They get updated as soon as there’s a release. 😊

[craggy plaza]

@spice harness I dmd you my serial numbers.

[fallen fulcrum]

Hi! I'm interested in testing as well. I have old pre-matter A19 bulbs, Matter-enabled A19 and BR30 bulbs, led strip, 12 lines, and 4d tv backlight. I've been using Apple Home and Nanoleaf and Homebridge. Thinking about using Home Assistant instead