#Flight and Bulldoze.

54 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

limpid cliff
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Kyrrax casts Unstoppable Force. The wyvern has flight. Flight lets a model move through models as long as it has enough movement to completely pass them. Bulldoze requires a model to be base to base to push and is optional. Unless I am misremembering, bulldoze does not force you to stop moving after the push (similar to things like Wanderer road markers). The models are considered to be in b2b while moving through another model.

Can the wyvern push the model through the path the wyvern just took by not declaring the push until it's center would be on the other side of the model?

Could the bulldoze potentially give the wyvern a new landing spot where it could not stop before a bulldoze push?

Is this example accurate?

Example:
(1) Sepsira is exactly 10" from the wyvern. Sepsira is declared as the charge target.

(2) The wyvern moves 10" in a straight line toward Sepsira but models are in the way.

(3) The models are all moved the full 2" from where the wyvern would land. It now has a valid landing spot.

(4) The charge is successful.

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fluid spoke
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The answer is ~~yes. ~~ it depends. If you have incorporeal, the scenario above 100% works. If you do not have incorporeal, you can only do it when the model to be bulldozed is not underneath you.

topaz cape
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Doesn't this violate the Directly Away clause? When you bulldoze a model, it has to move directly away from you, which means the distance must always be increasing. If the bases are overlapping, then the distance can't increase, because it stays at 0".

fluid spoke
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Directly Away talks about Center Points for this reason.

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The center points are increasing in distance when you Bulldoze a model while inside it. It only fails and doesn't work if you overlap center points.

topaz cape
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So, to use another example, could a model with bulldoze and flying fly across a unit that is B2B, center itself on the unit, declare bulldoze, and push the entire unit apart, then continue on afterwards?

fluid spoke
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Yes, it can, if it has a position that after bulldoze would be a legal landing position to continue on to.

topaz cape
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But it doesn't need a legal landing position when declaring the bulldoze.

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Just has to end with one.

fluid spoke
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It'll force some rewinding of the positioning if it can't land after the bulldoze.

winged hatch
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You can't Bulldoze a model while you're overlapping it, though, no?

Flight lets you move through them, but it doesn't let them move through you.

topaz cape
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That's another point. Wouldn't they just instantly make base contact with you and stop?

fluid spoke
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Checking.

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An example. If the Wyvern charges over the Stormblade Legionnaires, At each point after the Wyvern crosses the base fully, it would bulldoze the unit apart (second picture).

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I've clarified that it depends. If you have incorporeal, the scenario above 100% works. If you do not have incorporeal, you can only do it when the model to be bulldozed is not underneath you.

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My apologies for getting it incorrect.

winged hatch
topaz cape
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The question I'd ask now is if this scenario is possible to actually create. I know that Khymera have access to battlegroup Ghostly, but I do not believe Incorporeal. Is there any non-cornercase game state where a model can have access to Bulldoze and Incorporeal at the same time?

limpid cliff
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So to confirm, in the case of the wyvern, my example would not work because the pushes would all take place while the bases are overlapping. I would have to try and push them differently to make that charge as is.

fluid spoke
fluid spoke
fluid spoke
winged hatch
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But...?

Screenshot_20241209_162752_Warmachine_App.jpg
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If the advancing model does "change its mind" that means you have to rewind some number of pushed models some numbers of inches?

fluid spoke
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Bulldoze screws everything up, which is why it was blocked for tramples.

topaz cape
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So, to come back to my example, if you used a run to fly over the unit, then specified each specific model as the bulldoze target when you're only B2B with them, you could still do it. You just can't declare the bulldoze when the models are overlapped(unless you have Incorp).

fluid spoke
fluid spoke
jovial frost
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So you could fly over a model, and declare bulldoze on the other side, moving that model two inches the way you came

fluid spoke
topaz cape
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My question is then how do you effectively measure the distance the model is moving during this? Since this movement involves multiple base to base contacts of models that are in a situation where you can't use a base to measure the distance needed. This feels like an absolute nightmare to resolve.

fluid spoke
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It 100% is a nightmare and there isn't really a way I can describe it here that'll work for every scenario. The players (and TO, if one is involved) have to work it out.

winged hatch
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[The logistics of this strategy are left as an exercise for the reader]

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Seems like it'd need a lot of hoverhanding of a proxy base or similar.

topaz cape
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The example I'm thinking of here is that Axis has access to cheap warjacks with flight and Unstoppable Force, so he can reasonably create this situation and all the headaches it would provide.

fluid spoke
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If you have many, many proxy bases of the same thickness, I can see a way to resolve it, but it requires removing every model from the table to resolve it and no rewinding.

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And being on the player's clock who's doing the Bulldozing the entire time.

topaz cape
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And that no rewinding also seems like a big issue. If you make a mistake during this and can't reasonably rewind, then what happens?

fluid spoke
winged hatch
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I doubt there's a good universal answer other than "Both players share a responsibility for a clean game state."

fluid spoke
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Being on the player's clock who wants to do the Bulldozing is often enough penalty to stop the insanity.

limpid cliff
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I'm already going to clock myself. Might as well have fun doing it!

vivid kraken
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Why is Incoporeal differnet to flight for this?

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(I'm not spotting the distinction)

plush coral
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The pushed model can move through the incorporeal Bulldozing model whereas it couldn't move through the Bulldozing flying model

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Because (even if you're already overlapping) you can't be pushed through a model with flight

lavish bison
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@novel roost

left torrent
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I honestly believe bulldoze wording just needs to change to "when you first contact, or initially contact" a model ypu choose to bulldoze.

mystic sail
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Was there a question

left torrent
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Other than a response of "There's no way to make a ruling on this rule for the scenario's given....soooooo...Player and the TO just need to figure it out"

Either bulldoze works in the sense that you get to choose at what point you're "contacting the model" allowing things with flight/incorp to essentially land where they want, or it doesn't. Saying that a model can only bulldoze if there is a valid landing place first, and then rewinding the game state to possibly make it work isn't in the rules either.

Looking at the responses from the names in colors that matter it doesn't appear that there is a clear answer to this issue.

So my last statement is just a way to clear the confusion, give a helpful suggestion on how this can be easily fixed with a rule update.....or....... wondering if there is an actual solution I may have just missed in this conversation.

mystic sail
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Was referring to the person that posted yesterday prior to you
@lavish bison

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Since they posted and didn't have a question was curious in regards to if there is something they need addressed

lavish bison
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Some one showed me this link and so I tagged my amigo to also show him