Removing shielded exp tasks - feedback

[buoyant lagoon]

.

[supple fox]

Sounds good to me

[modern briar]

also please extend the winners number

[tender sphinx]

we all got tired i dont think anyone will be against that

[uncut chasm]

Good

[slate verge]

Yes ✅ if it's going to delay further and we don't really have use case on it.

[hallow wedge]

I think its a reasonable request.

[full imp]

I did shielded tx but if other people couldn't because of a bug, completely agree to remove the points on it out of fairness 😉

[untold knoll]

I think all users who have already useded shield actions should get roids

Sheilded actions worked for a 2 month

Each user was able to execute them

[final sparrow]

in version 2?
I generally agree with this decision

[full imp]

yes on my side only the unshielded part didn't work but the shielded transaction worked well

[bitter raven]

sounds good

[gritty narwhal]

shielded the asset still work

[vale river]

Sounds like common sense!

[lapis parcel]

What about task with shielded tx app? Also remove or we can launch local? @buoyant lagoon

[final sparrow]

@buoyant lagoon What will happen to IBC-shielded transfer?

[untold knoll]

Yep,
Shielded actions should not be excluded from the expedition

2 month... it's working two month...

[gritty narwhal]

I dont see it will be removed, only shielded to shielded and unshielding will be removed

[buoyant lagoon]

it only counts in V2, is my understanding
so after the hard fork

[bitter raven]

yeh but some of us put it off for a bit to focus on tooling :/

[gritty narwhal]

but shielded Ibc not working, it should be removed

[buoyant lagoon]

Spork is working on an update about scoring for IBC applications

[raw wharf]

For me it works, well. If anyone needs it, they can use my rpc.

[buoyant lagoon]

wdym?

[untold knoll]

What about S task with shielded actions?

[final sparrow]

its not working

[buoyant lagoon]

can you tell me which item?

or from here: https://namada.net/blog/namada-shielded-expedition-wanted-asteroids-roids-point-system-and-rankings

[final sparrow]

4 row in v2

[buoyant lagoon]

that's just shielding an IBC asset, this should be working

it's not a shielded transfer

[lapis parcel]

I mean you have S tier task: building shielded application. Also remove this one or we can do local app and share GitHub? @buoyant lagoon

[raw wharf]

For those who want to test shielded transfer 👇
https://namada-explorer-api.stakepool.dev.br/

[frail marten]

100% agree and go to mainet

[high hedge]

Bad descision, we must solve this problem and we must be able to make all the task, IMHO

[buoyant lagoon]

reasoning?

[lapis parcel]

At the same time, I have already seen that some people have accepted assignments from this category, but I still don’t understand how they submitted them, since shielded transactions do not work @buoyant lagoon

[high hedge]

Shielded actions are a little bit harder to make, than other actions and they boost crew in ranking. If there will not be such tasks, there will be situation, when several people in the top will have the same number of roids, i think. Also, how will i test my shielded application, when i finish it?

---

Sincerely, crew member

[ruby sand]

remove all the tasks and just launch the mainnet

[slate verge]

Oh yeah to clarify that, we have submitted the task when the shielded ibc transfer and shielded action was working before hardfork

[slate verge]

🙂

[naive remnant]

@ebon violet Check my DM Spork, pls tks!

[raw wharf]

@buoyant lagoon
I still don't understand this problem. I created a new node and used my snapshot and it works fine. Furthermore, anyone who wants can use my rpc to complete the task. https://namada-explorer-api.stakepool.dev.br/

[slate verge]

You mean the shield of Naan? From transparent to shielded right

[iron pulsar]

We don't need to remove these tasks. they have worked well for 2 month. The solution is very easy just consider roids for tasks regardless of the version!

[woven bridge]

@buoyant lagoon
Just to be sure : you'd be removing this task only for crew or for Pilots also ?
This assessment lacks precision in my view. Would you be removing exactly and only this specific task? Or all stuff related to shield transaction?
Because this touches A class tasks probably, the S class about shield app and maybe other things not straight in my mind

[lapis parcel]

How did u do that? Local? When? There weren’t any problems only 1st week

[gritty narwhal]

so how about the person done it after hardfork ?

[slate verge]

Did setup a full node on my mac I have full video proof on it. Yeah it work well until hard fork

[slate verge]

We Wil have to wait for the team to fix

And then you can submit :))

Once the shielded rewards are active I think your application should work.

[lapis parcel]

Local?
We also can do video local, just clarify that.

It was possible only first week as I told before.

[slate verge]

Oh yeah,

[woven bridge]

Please keep this discussion focused on the question aled by Gavin, otherwise it's gonna be hard to gather the feedback on that proposal

[lapis parcel]

?

[slate verge]

Can we talk on Dm. Seems like our convo is going different way and likewise it will be hard for some to gather information sicne the thread is about soemth else

[regal swift]

I think this is a good option to exclude two tasks that do not work properly after the hard fork.

1. Make a shielded to shielded NAAN transaction
2. Unshield NAAN

Task Shielded NAAN and Shielded IBC asset working fine

[woven bridge]

If we specifically exclude those 2 tasks, I dont think it is really an issue

[proper swallow]

its goo dto remove those two tsak

and if someone allready did those task just minus those roids

[buoyant lagoon]

how's this?
"removing a somewhat challenging task changes the selection environment and makes the Shielded Expedition less competitive for Crew Members"

[buoyant lagoon]

good question, stand by

[buoyant lagoon]

can you pls show me? screencap or something

[buoyant lagoon]

#1224780675404529764 message

[slate verge]

Task as?

[hushed olive]

what about Building shielded app category ?
https://ibb.co/x85PyJW

if we cannot shield or unshield can we build such app ?

[buoyant lagoon]

i don't have and haven't been able to get the list of A Class tasks, but yeah, probably. good point, ty!
noted about the S Class, pls lmk if any others come to mind

[slate verge]

@buoyant lagoon if task from building shielded application are remove. Will new task will available or just remove?

[final sparrow]

#shielded-expedition message Can you check if Hades described this task correctly? I just thought it was ibc shielded transfer which also doesn’t work.

[buoyant lagoon]

we will have to address this
i know there are people working on IBC apps

[gritty narwhal]

thank you sir🙏

[buoyant lagoon]

no advising pls! as an organizer, i can answer these kinds of Qs 🙂

[high hedge]

thank you)

[slate verge]

Okay got it 🙏

[buoyant lagoon]

we must address this #1224780675404529764 message

@high hedge can you pls tell me if this represents your concern? or if it should be updated #1224780675404529764 message

[hushed olive]

btw, is shielded ibc working ? was anyone able to transfer cosmos / osmosis token via ibc to shielded address and see it on your payment znam address ?

[untold knoll]

I'm also working on this and can send you a beta version now
but I've been waiting for a shilded update to show a fully working version

And i think it not a good solution for us

[brittle flare]

Setup a downgraded testnet?

[buoyant lagoon]

did you get this working, @woven bridge? @buoyant pagoda?

[untold knoll]

Yep

Before hardfork

Now i think a can too

[final sparrow]

after hardfork shielded ibc transfer not working

[untold knoll]

Can see, but can't sent again

[slate verge]

Yes before the hard fork

Everything works

[untold knoll]

Before hardfork it's worked good

[buoyant lagoon]

for the competition, i think we should be able to sort this out, i will report it

for development, what are folks doing? like if you want to keep working on an IBC app and it won't work on Shielded Expedition chain, can you use something like #🏕-testnet-campfire ?

and if you can use Campfire, what are the pain points?

[brittle flare]

That was my next thought after hearing that a fix for shielded actions on SE will not be expected.

[untold knoll]

i don't used it but if it use 31 version i think yes

[hushed olive]

it probably will be less stable and harder to verify 🙂

[brittle flare]

In fact, it might be more comfortable setting up a local chain. No need to shielded-sync a huge chain.

[woven bridge]

Yes, that's the whole point of our submissions "Shielded app"for the S class.
So I'd rather not have this one cancelled given the amount of time spent of it 😅

[astral adder]

If the plan is to go to mainnet and sell tokens while the market is booming, this makes sense. But I must agree with those asking to add another tier of rewards, because of the 2x time of the challenge, this would only be fair.

[woven bridge]

But since the hardfork, no

[brittle flare]

Holy offtopic

[astral adder]

How exactly?

[woven bridge]

I haven't been able to get anything through. I tried this morning to use the news official cosmos channel too Shield some ATOM, but it never arrived

(and I know the channel was closing at that time)

[opaque narwhal]

of course not. if it was supposed to be in v2..

[woven bridge]

However, although I would understand removing task that would have to be done in v2 ans that are no longer possible, but A class and S class that have been available since day 1, I don't see why you would remove them too @buoyant lagoon ?

[opaque narwhal]

this.

[opaque narwhal]

you sure that's interpreted correctly?

[opaque narwhal]

it's a complicated matter imo. given the last days' discussion. anyone who wants to develop a simple cli wrapper if allowed won't be able to do so now.

I don't have any good solution and I do think you (phychain) should be awarded for your task, but also flagging the issue re the whole thing

[woven bridge]

How do you remove a task without importing a penalty on those who already completed it 🤔

I thought we were discussing removing tasks that are starting to be available only in v2

[untold knoll]

@buoyant lagoon I have sent you more information about the shielded app and think it is unfair to remove it from S tasks

Check dm

[slate verge]

Same goes to me. I really spend alot of time on it

[buoyant lagoon]

it's v0.32, but the issue isn't the version, the issue is shielded sync after hard fork

[buoyant lagoon]

why harder to verify? why less stable? Spork runs Campfire

[buoyant lagoon]

https://campfire.luminara.icu has a quick way to launch a local chain

[opaque narwhal]

I think it gets more complicated given the backdrop of last days discussions somehow

[buoyant lagoon]

gonna chat w Heliax and Anoma Foundation about this
ideally not cancel it

[untold knoll]

Yep i meant it

[buoyant lagoon]

i'm awaiting info to show me otherwise

[opaque narwhal]

may be correct, think it probably is. I misunderstood the task initially

[buoyant lagoon]

whoa whoa let's let Spork be the decider of that

[buoyant lagoon]

you thought correctly

[buoyant lagoon]

all good? lmk if i missed anything

[slate verge]

Agree Hahaha.

Let's conclude this expedition with, much of learning, interacting and helping each other 🙂. + good prize 😁. So we all end it happily

[woven bridge]

Ok so :

• cancel v2 tasks for crew
• keep Shielded app S class untouched
• keep A class untouched
  ?

[buoyant lagoon]

@here this is a discussion about not fixing shielded sync and removing two V2 tasks from the Crew Members list:

1. Make a shielded to shielded NAAN transaction
2. Unshield NAAN

V2 began after the recent hard fork, which broke shielded-to-shielded and unshielding due to clients failing to do shielded sync

here's my collection of valid points:

• "removing a somewhat challenging task changes the selection environment and could make the Shielded Expedition less competitive for Crew Members"
• could this affect Pilots Class A tasks?
• doesn't this affect Class S - IBC apps?

[hushed olive]

just from experience. usually stage environments [ campfire ] has less priority and attenstion than prod [ shielded-exp ]

also iirc the chain resets quite often

[brittle flare]

and that is a good thing

[iron pulsar]

Simply make all tasks independent of version. it solves all problems think about this!

Remove version colum from roid table! more fair and much simpler to calculate roids

[opaque narwhal]

at the risk of moving slightly beyond this, does this mean we should also talk about the uptime tasks for pilots?

[hushed olive]

why ? you would need to recreate ibc channels and update your app with newer chain id when it happens

[woven bridge]

in another thread 😄 ?

[opaque narwhal]

we do love threads

we also do have #1209184672270123019

[buoyant pagoda]

Yes, of course, I made the 1st shielded IBC transfer in Namada's history in the first days of SE

It's highlighted in the submission 🙂

[brittle flare]

Campfire chain will be lean and mean so you can quickly get it up and running with a clean slate, compared to for example the huge size of the Osmosis testnet. Even the pruned snapshot takes ages.

[buoyant pagoda]

That's completely true

[buoyant lagoon]

we can prioritize it

we're considering moving to using state migrations and snapshots. we can also just not reset in Fridays

[buoyant lagoon]

yes, glad you reminded me, will attend to that thread

[buoyant lagoon]

not completely true
#1224780675404529764 message

[buoyant pagoda]

Yeah, I know, I meant that if now shielded IBC transfers are broken, plus shielded to shielded and unshielding (only shielding works afaik), it's true that the task, even being a CLI app, couldn't be done

[lime shuttle]

yes please @buoyant lagoon

[peak dune]

My question is if it's not working no need to remove.. just keep as it is ? If no one can finish it still the same result

[opaque narwhal]

a few have been able, most no

[peak dune]

I see

[raw wharf]

https://ibb.co/VWhb8sc

[mellow brook]

Shielded IBC is also not working for me, in addition to Unshielding and Shielded to Shielded Txn

[mellow brook]

We should add Shielded IBC to this as well. Currently it seems only Shielding Txn is working and rest all aren't working. I was able to do all these in v0 and v1, but can't in v2

[lime shuttle]

shied transfer is broken for me

[kind raven]

I can confirm shielded also working on my side.
transparent > shielded address : ok
shielded > shielded : ok
unshielded : ok
shielded ibc : ok

[mellow brook]

Only first one working for me. Rest is broken in my case

[raw wharf]

Shielded IBC also works for me.

[buoyant lagoon]

thanks! @slate nebula take a look?

[shy wind]

We can do a proposal and vote for it 🤔

[supple fox]

please no proposal, considering we're struggling to even make major protocol proposals to pass because of voter inactivity. Just make a decision and let that be it.

[high hedge]

That's right, I think

Thank you for feedback, @buoyant lagoon

[summer night]

I spent a great deal of time, went through countless documents, and attempted the shielded-sync over and over again before finally completing these two tasks. I believe that deleting them now would be extremely unfair and a denial of my efforts. You can choose to reward more people, but you should not negate the hard work I have put in.

And on my side, they are not damaged; everything is normal.

[supple fox]

same with me in v0/v1, but it simply doesnt work here after hardfork

[summer night]

You could try sending some new namda to your shielded address, as the pre-fork shielded namadas seem to be not callable normally.

[supple fox]

I tried that but still no luck

even tried setting up a new vps from skratch, still the same

if they make v0/v1 count I'm ok with keeping the tasks in 😄

[summer night]

The officials should think about how to fix errors quickly instead of just bluntly deleting tasks.

[high hedge]

Same opinion

[supple fox]

pretty sure they already considered that, hence why they put up this thread. Ending SE is already way overdue, I'm ready to get some closure on this.

[wicked fjord]

I just tried all transactions, everything works.
Shield naan - ✅
shielded to shielded - ✅
Unshield naan - ✅
From shield to cosmos - ✅
From cosmos to shield - didn't try

[opaque narwhal]

my dude, the system is broken post-fork (v2) and those tasks were only meant to be point-giving in v2 (in addition I have to say that none of those tasks were very complex. they are however impossible to perform for most now, so removing them is definitely the fair choice)

[opaque narwhal]

you don't seem to understand the complexities that can be involved in fixing certain errors.

[cedar bear]

Yeah pretoro's right
I agree w Gavin in OP tbh

[opaque narwhal]

lucky 🙂

[opaque narwhal]

I don't think that's the best solution.

[supple fox]

agreed, more fair to just remove it all together

[wicked fjord]

Can you explain to me at what stage exactly you got the error?

[opaque narwhal]

it's whenever you try and do an actual shielded transaction post-fork

for those of us that have this error

(which as it seems are a lot)

[wicked fjord]

Is synchronization going well?

[opaque narwhal]

yup

[wicked fjord]

What if you create a completely new wallet? It’s just very unclear why some people get it and others don’t.

[proper swallow]

Yes remove this and also pilot uptime too 😁

[opaque narwhal]

no already tried. I assume you mean a new shielded address/key

[wicked fjord]

Yes

[final sparrow]

I tried this, only the first transaction works for me

[wicked fjord]

and then did the synchronization again for the last blocks?

[final sparrow]

ofc

[summer night]

Deleting it would be unfair to those who have already completed the task, not deleting it would be unfair to those who couldn't complete it. Either way, it's unfair. So, it might be better to just fix this bug and let everyone continue with the task. After all, this is a bug that will eventually need to be fixed.

[summer night]

Of course, I'm not a developer for Namada, so I don't understand the complexity of the fix. However, as a regular developer, I simply believe that bugs always need to be fixed, regardless of the complexity of the fix.

[opaque narwhal]

I don't see how it would be unfair to those who did it in v2. those are artificially inflated points that haven't even been credited. I will stop debating though

[summer night]

Stick to your own views; after all, everyone is looking out for their own interests, and no one can truly persuade anyone else.

[opaque narwhal]

not cool.

not the first time you have disparaged me in the chats. try being a little more cordial.

[summer night]

Alright, if you feel that it was derogatory towards you, I apologize. I did not mean to belittle you; I was just telling it like it is. Perhaps sometimes the truth isn't so pleasant to hear. I'm arguing my point here based on my own interests as well; I don't want my own efforts to have been in vain.

[opaque narwhal]

I hear that, and I responded with my own viewpoints. We just disagree here.

[tepid wave]

I agree with deleting the tasks as they were only for v2

[regal swift]

I understand your dissatisfaction, but when you need to make some difficult decision, they look at the decision that will subsequently harm fewer users, in this case such a decision is to remove two tasks from v2 (especially since roids have not yet been awarded for these tasks ).

Regarding waiting for the problem with transactions to be resolved. I think this option was considered by the team first, but during the decision process they were faced with the fact that it could take a lot of time. I don't think anyone wants to continue an expedition for 2-4 weeks just so we can do 2 transactions. IMHO

[lime shuttle]

yes agree

[stark crypt]

101%!

[karmic marlin]

Should remove because nobody can do right now. It isn't fair for everybody do it later.

[bronze current]

It has been more than 1 month... I have done shileding actions for more than dozens of times. And it's the core function of Namada.
Why do we need to delete these tasks? They have always been doable and there has been plenty of time.

[supple fox]

I dont know why, but these tasks were only supposed to earn ROID's in v2 of the protocol (after hardfork). But its broken in v2..

[high hedge]

To sum up
The opinion of users is that developers need to fix this bug, and not look for an easy way. Many users have spent a lot of time trying to figure out the technology of shielded actions and naturally got higher places in the rating, and also plan to strengthen their positions during the release of v2.

[supple fox]

Funny, I got the opposite impression. Seems to me most dont want to delay even longer and just want this to be over with

[brittle flare]

NAM will be a big fat 0 if the tech does not work.

[high hedge]

As for me, I'm ready to wait for the fix.
We'll have some more time to explore the features and find some bugs

[regal swift]

Why did you conclude that this is the opinion of users?

[high hedge]

I've talked to my friends, who also taking part in SE and I've read practically all messages there. Other part of users just wait for NAM, I think.

[opaque narwhal]

agree

[regal swift]

Nobody says that the problem will not be solved. The problem will be solved, but after the expedition.

[brittle flare]

I have the feeling the majority of participants want to finish the Expedition sooner rather than later. Some have expressed that literally, but more and more often people are reacting tired, irritated and frustrated. I think the general idea was that the Expedition would take about 2 weeks and now we are heading into 2 months. I can imagine that is also an increasing burden upon the developers to fix issues quickly rather than properly. The longer they take to fix the shielded features, the more the participants will grow weary and grumble.

On the other hand those shielded features are the bread and butter of Namada. They need to be working properly before public release and they need to be rigorously tested. Perhaps not in the Shielded Expedition then, but in a separate red teaming session.

[regal swift]

talking with friends😅 Let's look at the facts, the majority of those who wrote their opinion on the problem support the decision to remove two tasks from v2. Everything else is manipulation

[high hedge]

How does this testnet named? SHIELDED Expedition! Shielded tx is the main feature of Namada

[brittle flare]

True, and you can read that I place great importance on finishing the shielded feature set as NAM will be worth 0 without it, but how can I argue against the developers?

We would like to propose removing these tasks from the competition because the fix will take much-needed engineering time. The fix would only be a work-around that a) could delay mainnet and b) won't contribute anything useful to mainnet Namada.

Meanwhile in #👋-general-chat people are complaining why testnet takes months instead of the expected 2 weeks. The answer:

But as with life unforeseen circumstances have lead to the current timeline. I'm sure the team are as disappointed as many users in not launching sooner but we are where we are.

At the end of the day Namadas USP is it's privacy guarantees which will bring the liquidity of users that truly value privacy for their assets and this is the community of users that Namada wants.```

Things have not been going according to plan, so we have to adapt.

I think we have to be realistic, give the developers time to fix the shielded feature set, then who knows there will be a Shielded Expedition Redux event or something.

Also, within the context of a competition, time is an important element too. Letting the Expedition run for much longer allows other participants to catch up, which is unfair to those who delivered submissions early when there was much less information and examples to go by, because they thought it had to be done within 2-3 weeks. And I say this as someone who has not submitted a Shielded Application.

[high hedge]

Plan was broken, It remains for us to bring it to the end, we have loosed all deadlines, there's no need to cut something. Just bring all planned tasks to the end

[opaque narwhal]

most definitely this

[regal swift]

Considering the fact that the proposal to remove two tasks from v2 came from the team, and not from the community, I am more than sure that they know how to fix this problem, it will just take a lot of time (in the context of the expedition) and there is no point due to This will delay the shielded expedition. Moreover, shielded transactions have already been tested for 2 months.

[high hedge]

Ok, I'm doing the shielded application right now, how to test it?

[regal swift]

So this is where you should have started! That you just want to do the task shielded app so you need to continue!
Regarding your question, this was discussed yesterday: #1224780675404529764 message

[cedar bear]

Agreed

[cedar bear]

And also agreed

[brittle flare]

Same. I wonder what we have in common that it works for some but not for others.

[mellow brook]

Yep, we are the unlucky ones I guess 😅

[solemn summit]

If this decision speeds up the completion of the expedition, I am for it

[opaque narwhal]

it's shielding that's in the score table

[brittle flare]

#1224780675404529764 message

#1224780675404529764 message

Only transparent to shielded works for some of us, while shielded to shielded, shielded to transparent and shielded IBC work for others, but not for us anymore since V2.

[opaque narwhal]

same but was refering back to spidey that you commented on

[brittle flare]

From the explanation it seems like it should happen to everyone.

Quick update, we investigated the problem which is due to the client producing merkle paths for the spend notes that point to invalid anchors (which in turn leads to a rejection by the masp vp). This is likely because the clients are not fetching all the notes published on chain and therefore construct invalid merkle trees locally. We are evaluating possible solutions

Shielded-sync behaves different in V2 than I remember but also how it is described. It seems to fetch all notes but skips over a lot of notes when scanning.

[opaque narwhal]

ok I was simply trying to say that re spidey's comment originally which I took to be speaking of removing an extra subclass, that seemed misunderstood to me

not disagreeing with the rest

[mellow brook]

I already finished these in v0 and v1, hopefully should be good even if done earlier

Otherwise best to remove v2 as gavin proposed and clearly a lot of users facing this issue in v2

[proper swallow]

It good to remove only shielded to shielded and shielded to transparent

[buoyant lagoon]

i think nobody has completed the task

[buoyant lagoon]

i see Paopao's comment here being fine

[buoyant lagoon]

you shouldn't be disagreeing repeatedly with people in these threads

[buoyant lagoon]

😂 fair

@high hedge i think nobody has completed these tasks

[karmic marlin]

@crisp scarab take a look: #📣-se-announcements message
cc @buoyant lagoon