Raven Guard 2.0 - Theorycrafting

[trail marsh]

I didn't see a thread for the emo legio, so I decided to make a craft thread for us for lists and such etc like the others

<@&877303985156030484>

[frail stone]

I just need to know (if anything) that my list is still viable.
But afaik Battlescribe has yet to update with the new rules so I'm waiting till I can share it in that format. As I have not bought the new box or book yet so I can't check.
And I'm terrible at the game overall, haha

[signal pumice]

I will endeavour to keep this constructive and restrict my bitching to elsewhere.

[frail stone]

Bitching? On what account? Having issues with the new rules?

[signal pumice]

Oh yes, but I shall zip on that and concentrate on the good stuff

I think Recons are going to be a solid Troop choice for us; I can see myself having a unit in every list

[frail stone]

Interesting! I'll admit I've kept myself fairly distant from previews so I'm practically a blank slate and only heard good stuff from those that did read through previews or get the books early.

[trail marsh]

I just like RG too much not to start them

I'm used to playing with meh rules I played DG

[signal pumice]

I'm liking infiltrating Tac Support with meltas/plasmas (according to what you need)

[signal pumice]

Ditto

You plough on, right

[trail marsh]

I'm thinking of doing Pride of the Legion with melta Veterans

[signal pumice]

My thing about shooty vets is you seem to be spending a lot for melee capability that you won't be using

WS5, 2A etc

Perhaps 'won't be using' is the wrong expression - 'won't be maximising the use of'

[trail marsh]

Well I was thinking 5 melta, and chainswords, just a generalist unit with some fire power

[frail stone]

My current force is set up with Liberation Force with Assault Marines as my troop choice in two Units of 15 iirc.
With elites being two units of Dark Furies and two Mor Deythans one in a Storm Eagle (Darkwing)

3000 points in total.

I heard we lost our Darkwing though, which is unfortunate.

[signal pumice]

Definitely worth giving them a go - I'm probably not giving them a fair go

The issue with Lib Force at the moment is having to wait for the IA rules

I really want to give it a run out - giving Hatred to Furies is really good

[frail stone]

You'll have to forgive me, but IA rules?

[signal pumice]

Sorry - Imperial Army! Your Solar Aux or Militia detachment

I think their 2nd ed book comes out in October or something

[frail stone]

I usually don't run with any Militia or Solar Aux on my list though.

[signal pumice]

Oh, now you have to

For Lib Force

[trail marsh]

I want the feel of an elite core of Isstvan survivors. You think I could still achieve that vibe through Recon Company?

[frail stone]

In order for it to be viable? Or did they change the rules for it?

[signal pumice]

It's one of restrictions for the Rite - must include a Militia/Solar Aux allied detachment of at least 4 units

[signal pumice]

If you want them to be the creme de la creme of hardbitten hombres, PotL is probably the way to go, very fluffy.

But Recon Company also works to me as a good representation of a lighter, hit and run force too

[frail stone]

Wtf... Right my whole list needs reconsideration then. Goddamnit.

[trail marsh]

Cool cool, if you were to build PotL how would you do the Veterans/Terminators?

[frail stone]

So now that I've established my list is fucked, I need to reconsider everything. Currently I've got 30 Assault Marines split in 15.
20 Dark Furries split in 10s
20 Deythans 10 with snipers
5 with Meltas, 5 with Flamers.
1 Storm Eagle.
1 Contemptor.
And a single Praetor with dual blades.

How fucked am in list building terms? Lol

[signal pumice]

I need to go and put a list together I think, so satisfy my curiosity! (I'm being naughty and chatting at work at mo)

But I would probably try and build some melee-ish Vets, and some Cataphractii to hold objectives. Really hoping the Deliverers port over to 2nd ed well!

For heavy lifting in the AA/AT area I'd probably use Contemptors. The single HS/FA slot is a killer - I personally think you can never go wrong with Javelins.

[signal pumice]

Run them as Decap Strike and you're doing great

[trail marsh]

Would melee type Veterans be like 5 chainswords, 5 power weapons?

[frail stone]

Wish I had a book or the wonderful Battlescribe magicians do their trick so I can read up on the limitations and rules on that.

[signal pumice]

That's probably a decent spread - depending on what else you're putting in, maybe stick to lances to go poking 3+ saves and leave Termis with Fists/Hammers to deal with 2+ saves

[signal pumice]

They're working on it, as I understand. Big job though

[frail stone]

Oh definitely huge work and a massive contribution, the guys doing it has my utmost respect.

[trail marsh]

Maybe I could take Recon Company with sniper troops and melta squads in rhinos and then have the Elites be Veterans and Terminators to show this elite core that are all Dropsite survivors

[frail stone]

I've set up my army as a fun imaginary situation, where it's a "what if" scenario with Sharrowkyn if he met up with a Raven Guard force and was put in charge of it. So I kitbashed my HQ to sort of resemble or set him aside with his gear being a slight mismatch.

[signal pumice]

Another good way of doing it. Although if you are using Elite slots on Vets/Termis you've got less room for Dreads (who I have a personal hard on for)

I would really like to build a melee vet squad all with Raven's Talons... the problem is it's just too expensive to justify the cost

[trail marsh]

There's 4 Elites slots right?

[signal pumice]

I haven't actually got to that book yet! But I hear he's a dude

[signal pumice]

Yep, and you can always squad up the Dreads if you want multiple

[trail marsh]

2 Veterans, 1 Terminators, 1 Contemptor

[frail stone]

He's admittedly a bit of a Gary Stu. Haha

[signal pumice]

It's just there are so many good Elites!

[trail marsh]

He's definitely a Gary Stu

[frail stone]

Doesn't the Damage output justify it?

[signal pumice]

If they make it there!

Pair of RTs costs more than the Vet you're putting it on

[frail stone]

Ain't many that can get to say they headshotted a Primarch and walk away surviving the fallout from it. Haha

And even beating supposedly the greatest duelist in 30K. (Besides Sigismund ofc)

[teal apex]

Any idead how to kit Mor Deythan since combi flamer fun is over? Combi volkites?

[frail stone]

Combi Flamers is over?

[trail marsh]

Combi volkites

[signal pumice]

Combi volkites if you want to get the biggest bang for your buck out of Fatal Strike

[trail marsh]

No Fatal Strike Rending on templates anymore

[signal pumice]

Sadly yes

[frail stone]

https://c.tenor.com/T0x2EYfgHmcAAAAM/oh-shit-shit.gif

Right so that's gonna be troublesome. Need to order new combi weapons. Lol

[teal apex]

Any idea how to convert them?

Or maybe I have to wait for kit set...

[frail stone]

Good thing I got 10 Mor Deythans unassembled yet. So great timing.

[signal pumice]

I'm going to use the chargers from the Special Weapon box

[teal apex]

Good idea!

[signal pumice]

Slice and dice with some bolters from the big box

If only I had some dexterity

[trail marsh]

Hm Mor Deythan are Elites too

Damn I really want Veterans but there's so much competition for their slot

[signal pumice]

Sounds like PotL is what you wanna do

[trail marsh]

But I really like Recon Company ngl I like both

And I think Veterans are really fluffy, but not going to do very well with rhinos and such

[frail stone]

Iirc only difference, at least in old rules is that Mor Deythans has one more WS.

[trail marsh]

I'll probably cut the terminators tbf

[frail stone]

Between Veterans or Mor Deythans at least.

[trail marsh]

Yeah like I do get the same list vibe if I have 2 Mor Deythan squads instead of Veterans

Especially if I convert the Deythan

[teal apex]

I want 2 edt rules for deliverers! 🤠

[signal pumice]

Me too

[trail marsh]

Yeah, if they keep deep strike I'll want some

I've decided I'll go Recon Company first because I want the Fast Attack slots a lot

[worthy cloak]

How do Mor Deythan and recon stack up?

[signal pumice]

Both excellent; think of them as complementary, not competing

[trail marsh]

Yeah they're not really comparable, Deythan are just far more elite and Recon are cheap

Very complementary

[signal pumice]

Fit very well together in a list both slot-wise and thematically

My personal opinion is that Nemesis bolters are better on Recons, using the MDs as a platform for combi weapons and or something else fun.

However, they are Relentless, so using them as a mobile source of sniper fun is an option

[trail marsh]

Does 2x10 Recon squads and 2x10 Melta Support squads sound like an OK core for Recon Company?

[trail marsh]

And then maybe something like 2 volkite squads idk

[signal pumice]

Sounds good to me

What you thinking for anti tank/anti dread

[trail marsh]

Well the melta squads will aim for heavy tanks if needed. I'd like a Contemptor of some sort too. I could get speeders / Javelins?

Like things that are still thematic and effective?

[signal pumice]

Sounds great - Speeders and/or Javs are ace. Probs what I'll be taking (either or both, depending on game size)

One issue to remember is that Javs have Heavy (...) and so have to come in from Reserves in Recon

But they've got DS and Outflank, so it's no terrible hardship

[trail marsh]

How about a squad of 6 Multi-Melta jetbikes?

That would be very good anti-tank and it can deploy

Also what loadouts would be good on regular land speeders?

[signal pumice]

Double gravgun baybeeeeee

Or MM, another good option

[trail marsh]

I have this down so far, that's 1,670 points

[signal pumice]

Maybe shell for 10 points for helical on the dread so you've got an AA option

What about HQ?

[trail marsh]

I'm unsure, my group always takes praetors so a Delegatus would just get toasted

But as of now I don't really have a good unit or support for a Praetor to vibe with

[signal pumice]

Yeah that's awkward. What total points you aiming for?

[trail marsh]

I guess 2k-2.5k to start with

Shall I just aim for 2.5k instead?

[vast herald]

Nemesis Bolters are actually actively bad on Mor Deythan, because they don’t interact with Fatal Strike

For some reason

[signal pumice]

I guess taking Nemesis on MDs would be less about Fatal Strike and more about running around hipshooting BS5 sniper rifles. If you were going to do that you'd probably take other things that don't mesh with FS like missile launchers

Personally don't think it's worth it but I'm sure there's some mad lad who'll give it a go

[vast herald]

The thing is, just take like Seekers at that point

Tbh, I’m a bit sad at the design direction they’ve gone in with Mor Deythan

[alpine rover]

How the birbs doing in 2.0 so far? I’m still getting into my first listing. Thought I’d ask the dedicated soldiers. Lol

[vast herald]

They don’t have any rules for being better Snipers or for Stealth (other than Shroud Bombs but that doesn’t count)

[vast herald]

Decent, I’d say upper mid tier

[alpine rover]

Good to hear! Torn between being a Raven boy. Or white sonic.

[vast herald]

We do have a partially non functional legion trait

But like hey

At least part of it works

[signal pumice]

My third attempt to get a 2k list that has everything I want in it is currently at 3.5k... May need to do some whittling

The good bit of the Legion trait is good - it's just depressing how little of the list gets to benefit, and how many of the fluffy choices get nothing at all.

Like, I don't really mind that heavy tanks don't benefit (although it would have been nice); that's not really our schtick. But bikes, nothing; Assault marines, basically nothing; anyone who takes the signature wargear, nothing, etc etc

Oh damn I said I was going to be positive!

[vast herald]

Honestly one of the things I’m saddest about, is that other legions got a bunch of cool new wargear

But we out here with 2 pieces of wargear formerly for everyone that are now unique for some reason

[signal pumice]

The infravisor is good in theory, I just think it's a bit pricey. If it gave the whole unit Night Vision then fair play

[trail marsh]

It does technically

Only need one model in the unit with Night Vision to give the whole unit the rule, but if the Sergeant dies then yeah bye bye

[signal pumice]

Oh it does; man, I wish I could read. But still, the susceptibility to Blind gives me the willies

[vast herald]

It’s pretty useful because of how common night fighting is

It’s just not actually unique which makes me sad

[pastel bronze]

I still feel really funny that the deliverers have the infravisor

also funnier is that traitor deliverers has hatred(corax), yet corax has blinding on his melees

[vast herald]

God don’t remind me of Deliverers

Their rules are so weird

[pastel bronze]

yeah they are quite awkward

[vast herald]

I get they were trying to copy paste Justaerin

But like

Why not do something cool and unique

[pastel bronze]

They all has BS5, but not much good shooting...

[vast herald]

They can take combi weapons and a multi melta

Because they’re justaerin copies

[pastel bronze]

and if you want shooting then you have to take power weapons that sucks

[vast herald]

Also yeah that

You’re basically forced into a power axe

[pastel bronze]

or you can take the duo talons

but then you waste your bs5

[vast herald]

Their rules are powerful, because deep strike and all that

But they

1. Don’t feel like RG
2. Aren’t really that fun

[pastel bronze]

I mean, they shouldn't, as in lore they are the awkward few, even among the terran RGs

[vast herald]

I get the lore

I have big issues with it but that’s a separate thing

[pastel bronze]

But yeah, I agree, they don't have to be generic terminators with limited options...

[vast herald]

Personally I think it’s just lazy

Because this deliverer lore is new (and also contradicts all previous lore), but they decided to make them discount Justaerin lore wise

Instead of something cool and unique

What happened to them being Coraxs rage manifest

[pliant sequoia]

Well given that most Terran born deliverers died on Isstvaan V according to the Horus Heresy Book 3: Extermination I could see how they'd have a lesser impact post-Dropsite Massacre

Unless they officially retcon the Black Books

[vast herald]

Tbh my issue is more that the Deliverers hate Corax

Why didn’t those Deliverers just leave with the Predation Fleets

Because we know some percentage of Deliverers would’ve adopted the culture of Deliverance, so logically those would be the Deliverers who stay

[forest charm]

The thing is I think it's logical to assume that what Terrans remained may have been loyal to Corax if they didn't turn renegade like the Ashen Claws or be sent away like the predation fleets. I just don't like the lore they wrote for the Deliverers (Or paint scheme for that matter)

[vast herald]

Exactly, that’s my line of thought on this as well

But hey at least we got Deliverers as the exemplary battle unit and not Raptors

[forest charm]

I'd have preferred Raptors if it meant unique terminator sculpts like many other legions got

I love how everyone in this chat so far bar two are also in the RG discord lmao

A firm brotherhood to be sure lol

[vast herald]

You love to see it

[vast herald]

I’d prefer Raptor models over legion Terminators tbh

[forest charm]

Fair, I just worry Raptors would end up being primaris scale Mk6 and that's it

I'd love to see Rough Raptors specifically though, or a mix like 5 smooth 5 rough

[vast herald]

Smooth raptors would be a bit boring

I want really fucked up Roughs

Like, the ones around the time of Weregeld

Where they can barely wear power armor or hold bolters

It’d be so cool

[forest charm]

Agreed

If only that was a unit in 30k or 40k

[vast herald]

I’d love it

Raptors are just such a cool unit

It’d be dope if like, their geneseed was corrupted, and it spawned a successor chapter of marines like them

With greater strength and speed, but with the deformities

[pliant sequoia]

If rules ever exist for RG Raptors you could definitely find some really good .stls sculpts in order to print them. There's some nice mutated models out there.

[pliant sequoia]

Corax made sure it'd not happen tho 😆

[vast herald]

That is the only issue

[vast herald]

Def, I’d also love a Navar Hef model as a “Loyalist Argel Tal” type thing

[trail marsh]

I've already posted this, but I am definitely stuck on my 2.5k list, what would you guys add to this? It's Recon Company rite and it's at 1,670 points atm

[vast herald]

Dark Furies

Maybe some Bikes

[trail marsh]

I was thinking a squad of 6 Jetbikes maybe?

[vast herald]

That’s always good

[trail marsh]

That's 2,150. Mor Deythan are a definite point horde

[trail marsh]

And maybe I should drop a melta squad

[vast herald]

20 melta guys is probably more than enough

[trail marsh]

Yeah I'll drop to 10 and maybe have a volkite caliver squad instead

[small willow]

I would include more Troops with the line subtype as the TSS doesn't have it and just 2 Recon squads can give you a disadvantage concerning objectives

[trail marsh]

Maybe an Assault Squad to follow Dark Furies?

[vast herald]

Dark Furies will slaughter any unit assault marines can even touch

Anything with a 3+ save is just dead if Dark Furies touch it

And Assault Marines won’t kill terminators

[trail marsh]

Yeah because that's not the intended use of the unit

I just though because they have Line

[vast herald]

Oh of course, but I don’t think the two should work together tbh

[trail marsh]

and can DS

[vast herald]

I’m generally a fan of tactical marines

Because you can infiltrate them onto objectives

[trail marsh]

Like 10 in rhino or big blob?

[vast herald]

20 man

Preferably with apothecary

[trail marsh]

And should I always aim for 10 Deythan or will 8 or so perform the job?

Sorry, I know I spam this chat a lot, but I'm really confused, but eager to start RG. They play so different to DG and BA. Not a lot to do when bedridden haha

[vast herald]

8 is probably fine for a lot of stuff, but 10 is nice

[trail marsh]

And would they need a rhino?

[vast herald]

They don’t need it, but the rhino is super powerful

[trail marsh]

10 in rhino it shall be

2.5k on the dot

[vast herald]

Noice

[trail marsh]

Look good?

[vast herald]

Yes

[trail marsh]

Nice

Thank you very much for your help

[vast herald]

No problem

[pliant sequoia]

Did I miss anything as to why the tactical support sqaud would use meltaguns instead of volkites?

i thought it was the go-to

[signal pumice]

Plenty of anti inf already in the list; melta TSS is to bid sweet farewell to whatever tank/dreadnought they are pointed at

[charred lynx]

Conversion weapons have blind now, how rude ha

[vast herald]

Melta is anti tank, volkite anti infantry

Volkite really only excells on Mor Deythan

[signal pumice]

Hello crow friends - so, the Praevian: what exactly does he give to his accompanying unit?

To quote the rule (relevant text bolded by me):

An army that includes a model with this special rule may take a single unit of Castellax Battle-automata or Vorax Battle-automata as part of the same Force Organisation choice as the model with this special rule. Any models in a Castellax Battle-automata or Vorax Battle-automata unit included in an army due to this special rule gain the same Legiones Astartes (X) special as the Legion Praevian they share a Force Organisation choice with, but may not select any Legion specific Wargear or other options.

So do his best bot pals get:

• the same bonus that the Praevian has (i.e. Infiltrate and a 6+ Shroud)?
• Shadow and Fury (i.e. Nothing, because there is no reference to the Automata unit type in the rule)?
• to wait for an FAQ on the matter?

My guess is the 'nothing' interpretation, but I'm interested to see how other people parse that bold sentence...

[vast herald]

They’d get nothing most likely

[signal pumice]

Yeah, that's the conclusion I came to too. Bummer really

[charred lynx]

Infiltrating stealth castellax were hilarious in 1e. Might be a product for the automata rite

[vast herald]

just another time where our legion trait does nothing sadge

[signal pumice]

Dya know what annoys me most about it?

It's like, clearly they were trying to be 'elegant' with it - using the 'Heavy' subtype as a differentiating parameter, for instance - but then realised that didn't work on its own.

So they then had to go back and put in all the specific named exceptions like Tartaros armour, Jump Packs etc, but didn't actually just take the time to reassess what actually did get the 'bonus' (HSS with reroll W on the charge...)

And then still manage to entirely leave out troop types like Automata.

Argh! It's just frustrating

[vast herald]

Frankly I can’t tell if HSS getting the Falcons rule is intentional

It might be an explicit nerf

[signal pumice]

I buy that they might not have wanted infiltrating HSSs (although I would strongly dispute they'd have been overpowered)

But to give them a reroll that's charge dependent - on dudes whose guns prevent them charging? Nah that's just daft

[vast herald]

Oh it’s very stupid

But considering that part of the legion trait does literally nothing

I wouldn’t be surprised

[cinder quartz]

Could be worse. Thousand Sons lose their trait if the sergeant gets sniped out, don't they?

[vast herald]

Is that worse than flat out not getting any benefit from the trait

[cinder quartz]

Not getting it with one unit type? Yes.

[vast herald]

Essentially two

[charred lynx]

I'm not keen on HSS but TSS seem as good as they've ever been. It's not turn 1 plasmaguns pods but infiltrate still strong

[cinder quartz]

Which two? I know Automata is one

HSS doesn’t have a good trait, but it does technically work

[vast herald]

Bikes

Also kind of anything with a lightning claw or chainsword

[cinder quartz]

Do bikes not get Hawk?

How do lightning claws and chainswords prevent traits from having an effect?

[vast herald]

Bikes get it, the effect just gives them an ability they already had
(Shrouded 5+ when you run)

[vast herald]

The Falcons trait is reroll 1s to wound

[cinder quartz]

Ah, that is unfortunate

The falcons thing is a problem, I agree. Although it does mean you can still choose other weapons and still have access to a reroll

[vast herald]

I don’t have as much of a problem with the falcons trait

Because it does have an effect

I feel it should just be reroll 1s to hit or something of the like

[cinder quartz]

The Bikes thing is a problem. Automata, I’m not sure is an issue - are there even any automata RG can take that have rules?

[vast herald]

Praevian

That’s kinda just a minor oversight I don’t think anyone super cares about though

[cinder quartz]

I somehow always forget that Praevians exist

[vast herald]

Especially because RG are Sworn Bros with Mechanicum

So if you want robits you can get em

(Plus it’s very fluffy)

[vast herald]

Honestly same

[cinder quartz]

My biggest problem with RG’s traits is that Raven Guard are kind of a combo Night Lords and Alpha Legion….but the trait is less interesting than either of those.

[vast herald]

The trait is a bit boring

I’m doing a homebrew RG rule set cause I don’t love the current rules, and I’m playing around with Talons making Recons and Scouts normal troops

Because in lore, RG were all trained as recon marines and tactical marines

[cinder quartz]

I’ve found most of the traits to be either boring or just not impactful

The only ones I’ve actually liked are Alpha Legion and (specifically because of amusing interactions with Fury of the Legion) Death Guard

[vast herald]

I like the NL trait tbh

But yeah a lot of them are really boring

[cinder quartz]

Yeah, the NL one is ok

[vast herald]

That reminds me, one of the biggest missed opportunities in the RG rules is not giving them any bonuses to hit and run

Even though the legion constantly uses hit and run tactics

It’d be a powerful rule and also quite unique

[wary scaffold]

Same for Rapiers, they can't even charge to begin with

[signal pumice]

It would have been the easiest thing just to have ported it over - Infantry get Infiltrate, Jump and Termis get Furious Charge (1). Think of something new for Dreads and Cav, whatever.

But, yeah, if you wanted to go a bit more interesting, Hit and Run on Jump and Cav would have been a pretty cool choice

[vast herald]

I think furious charge is also a bit weird

I’d prefer something that interacts with Claws in a meaningful way

[vast herald]

For Cav just let me reroll failed shrouded

It’s what ravenwing get

[signal pumice]

That's a good one, although would be nice to have something Javelins could benefit from too

[vast herald]

True actually

[signal pumice]

Okay corvid chums, let's talk Raven's Talons. Awesome, right? How often do you take them? If you're anything like me, not actually all that often (except on the guys who come stock with them)

I have come to the conclusion that they're just too expensive; 5 points to upgrade regardless of whether you have one or a pair seems to me to be the sweet spot (rather than 5 points each).

Lightning Claws give you +2 A for having the pair; but then the base pair of claws is priced accordingly - so paying double to upgrade the pair means you're essentially paying twice for that benefit (rather than just paying for the upgrade from Rending (6) to Rending (5)).

[vast herald]

Honestly I think 5 points each is fair

Rending 5+ is a massive jump in output

[vast herald]

Fair on a WS5 unit that is

On a WS4 unit I’d never take em

(Outside Dark Furys but them being WS4 is stupid don’t @ me)

[signal pumice]

I agree that the bonus is good, but like I said, you pay for that +2 A twice.

In terms of value for money, you're better off just upgrading one of your pair to a Talon and leaving the other as a basic bitch LC and getting by with +1A, which just seems weird to me

[signal pumice]

Yeah, they're a bit of a kick in the teeth. Would've been nice - and fluffy - for them to have come with PE(Characters) or something like that

[vast herald]

My pipe dream is them getting +1 WS on the charge

But that might be a bit unreasonable

[signal pumice]

Also good

[vast herald]

I just want a unit that can at least kind of tussle with big boys

(No, Deliverers do not count, we do not speak of Deliverers)

[wary scaffold]

Yeah kinda sad that a chaplain is near necessary for a elite melee unit.

[vast herald]

well in fairness Dark Furys are super cheap

[rigid scroll]

Hey guys, new to HH and 40k. I hear we can play traitor ravenguard, how do they differ? Havent received my book just yet

[vast herald]

There isnt really any difference outside of not being able to use Corax

Actually

Deliverers are different

Instead of gaining Battle Hardened, they gain Hatred (Corvus Corax)

[rigid scroll]

cool, i think hatred looks more ideal tbh

[vast herald]

Loyalist Deliverers are wayyyy better

Hatred (Corvus Corax) means you get Hatred when in Close Combat with Corvus Corax

So you only get the benefit if you

1. Are playing an RG Mirror
2. The other RG player brought Corax
3. the other RG player decided to charge Corax into a unit that specifically gets a buff against him

its really silly that Loyalist Deliverers are a top tier terminator unit and Traitor Deliverers are a bottom-mid tier terminator unit

[rigid scroll]

Oh i havent got the book yet so i assumed hatred would be against loyalists not just corax haha

[vast herald]

I get what they were trying to go for, and honestly its pretty cool

But its really bad

I wish they just gave Hatred on top of Battle Hardened

Well frankly I wish the unit had entirely different rules (not just being copies of Justaerin)

But that may be a pipe dream

[rigid scroll]

yeah its not like their different in tech and skills, their the same group except they really hate corax

[vast herald]

Honestly I imagine theyd be better

Because I dont think the best Deliverers, dudes literally trained by the Justaerin, are gonna stay loyal to Corax

[rigid scroll]

yeah, maybe a bonus if allied with SOH

[vast herald]

Id love that

Personally if I was doing Deliverers, id give traitors Hatred (Loyalist Raven Guard) and Fearless when Horus is on the Battlefield

(On top of the other bonuses)

[signal pumice]

The other thing you get that's specific to Traitor Raven Guard is a dedicated Warlord Trait.

Not sure exactly how useful it is, mind, but it's an option

[vast herald]

the Traitor RG Trait is so fucking cool

Maybe the coolest in the game

But its not amazing

[rigid scroll]

Thats some saiyan power up haha

[vast herald]

part of me wishes it worked on Primarchs

just because thatd be hilarious

[signal pumice]

Shame it doesn't really - with the Infantry/Cavalry restriction, it really only means you'll see a benefit if:

a) you take a Centurion as your Warlord and end up in combat with an enemy Praetor, or

b) you end up facing someone like Corswain or Raldoron or whoever

[vast herald]

Yeah its that great

I wish they made it so if there wasnt a higher stat for the enemy, you just got to pick one to make higher

Honestly the Warlord Traits are the one aspect of the RG rules im happy with

All 3 are super fluffy and fun

[signal pumice]

Good titles too

I think Hidden Hand is my favourite, but sometimes you just want to build a beatstick Praetor and roid him up something good

[vast herald]

Hidden Hand is super well named and very thematic

also just genuinely fantastic

Dark Furys with +5 to charge? yes please

[pastel bronze]

not to mention the deliverers has Infravisor and all corax melee has blinding...

[vast herald]

WAIT LMAO

I didnt realize that

That really does make Traitor Deliverers hilariously bad

(well they were already hilariously bad)

[signal pumice]

Space dad gon give spanks to bad children

[rigid scroll]

Whats everyones opinion on cataphract?

[forest charm]

If loyalist deliverers, not bad! Regular cata are also decent if you want chainfists, but traitor deliverers are terribad

Tartaros are pretty good with claws to bully infantry, especially as they can sweeping advance while cata can't

[cinder quartz]

Hm. I guess the leak images don’t have the Deliverers… Anyone have an image of their page handy? I, unfortunately, don’t have the cash to spare for the Loyalist book at the moment

[signal pumice]

They're not out yet - they were one of the Exemplary Battles units at the very end of 1st edition

They are being ported over to 2nd ed (SoonTM, allegedly)

[cinder quartz]

Oh. Then why are people talking about how the Traitor versions are bad, if we don’t even have rules for them?

[signal pumice]

You can see their first edition rules on the Warcom website - people are hypothesising how they'll translate over

But they (currently) have a considerable weakness in the mirror match.

[forest charm]

Because their 1.0 rules were explicitly stated on Warcom to be written with 2.0 in mind

[signal pumice]

The other thing is that they're a funny old unit (Traitor or Loyalist) in that they're pulled in several directions by their bonuses, all of which are a bit anti-synergistic

(although that's a bit RG-all-over, in 2nd ed anyway)

[forest charm]

I believe a later article even stated that exemplary battle sheets were usable in 2.0 but I might be misremembering

[signal pumice]

They would need a bit of work, at the very least to give them a Move stat

[forest charm]

True

But in either case I don't see them changing much at all

[signal pumice]

Yeah I doubt it

[vast herald]

We’re all salty about their existence

[vast herald]

https://open.spotify.com/track/5UaDi8KzCGJqFfVAOBfXhi?si=j4LKdsoAQKif8_643IkNAg

(The joke is funnier because RG have 2 rules named after Metallica songs)